Sarah Jakes Roberts on Father-Daughter Dynamic, Teen Pregnancy & Fame | NXT Chapter With T.D. Jakes

You're invited on a make me cry. I'm here. And so I was like, I was here. Welcome to Next Chapter Podcast. And I'm TV teacher, host. And I'm excited today to present to you a very very special guest, my daughter, a renowned pastor, entrepreneur. She's also a New York Times best-selling author as CEO of Woman Evolve. She's on a powerful mission to help women evolve into the best version of themselves, earning her recognition as a 10-100 next-honoree. She's also a powerful wife and daughter. And I'm glad to have her with me today. Please welcome Sarah takes Roberts once again. There's nobody I would rather interview than you. I'm vested in you. I watch from one side, you watch from the inside and I watch you grow and develop. I'm honored to have you here today to be a guest on my podcast. And I thank you for taking the time to make yourself available. Chapter number one, preachers daughter. Life is a many splendid things. Many chapters, many ups, many downs. You have to have resilience in order to be able to do it. I would love to take you back to the days you were born. Oh. Yeah, I was a little bit back out. Now you don't remember this, but I remember this. I remember rushing up to the hospital with a little red dress and some berets preparing to take you home from the hospital. In the heels of West Virginia, we started out in Charleston, West Virginia. When you talk about that and when you think about that, you were my second daughter, my youngest daughter. And I was excited and intimidated. Barely making ends meet, trying to make it do what it do. And like most fathers, we get preoccupied in being protective and being providers. But there's much more to parenting than those two things alone. And you learn that as you go along. What is your favorite memory from your childhood? Oh. When I think about my childhood, I think about a lot of times in the kitchen with my siblings, unfortunately, because they go, I got to come out. But, you know, growing up, Jake's, as I call it, is such a Ulyssian experience. And not many people understand what it's like to be normal and regular. But to also have these expectations placed on you. But in the context of me and these four other people, we got it. And it was a space to be normal and to explore our identities and to get on each other's nerves and to forget and to love again and to make mistakes. And so I think about it as if you're an in the kitchen, watching dishes, okay, enough, cracking jokes and talking about one another. I feel like my siblings were so integral in my identity development. I think about all the stuff you all cook, learning the cook that you experimented on me. I'm glad to be alive. And the vice-advocation. Yeah, I ate it whether it was good or not. Now, her mother's a different story. But I ate it all. And now they can both cook like amazing, like in fact, all three of them for them. Actually, our great cooks and my stomach was a incubator the two, the test two, the reason why I ate it all today. length to your ears. The resilience. The love that you experience. Yes. Yes. Some could argue that I had my stomach problem. How was it being one of the youngest siblings? You know, even on one of the youngest, I don't feel like I'm one of the youngest. I feel like, and perhaps it's because I had to grow up so fast. Maybe it's because I'm naturally a little bit more maternal, but I always felt like I could provide some element of caretaking as it related to my siblings. So on one hand, I was the youngest, but also I felt like I had to call in a lot of the responsibilities of just nurturing and care if you guys were traveling or out of town. And I feel like in many ways that that shaped who I am today as it relates to a sense of responsibility. You know, it's funny you say that because I'm the youngest in my family, but a lot of the responsibility fell on me. And so I really didn't feel baby as much as I felt responsible. And I had to be responsible in part because of my father's illness and all the things that went along with that. There was no room in our lives for me to be a child. I had to grow up fast. You had to grow up fast. Find yourself in a situation where you had to be a bolster daughter and a mama at the same time. And you had to be responsible enough emotionally and mentally to handle it. That's a lot of weight to put on person. It's a lot of weight. What is your funny memory with your siblings? I don't think that they're appropriate for the next time. I'll be honest. Those, those rascals really work something else to raise. But you know, I think you know, we grew up in a generation where you know, redirection had many expressions. And redirection from your parents came through many different types of expression. And I think some of my favorite memories were probably my year to the door as redirection was being given to some of my siblings. That's it. Yeah, that you're hustling that came along with that. You like that? Yeah, I love that. You made me look good. You made me look good. Yeah, I appreciate that. In other words, let's leave it the way you did. Yeah, here we are. Chapter number two, teen pregnancy. What was one of your most embarrassing moments when you came out? Probably my pregnancy. I really? Yeah, for sure. I think when most people think in bears, when they're thinking like, you fell out of the steps or you did something that in time, you feel like back and say it wasn't that big of a deal. But I know that that pregnancy marks me so greatly that even when I reflect on my childhood, I have this overwhelming sense of fear and anxiety that overshadows the joy that I know was there. But I just think that that experience shaped so much of how I saw everything that happened in my life. And that pregnancy, having to find a way to keep my head up and still going to church. And the thing about teen pregnancy is like, it's not one of those things where it suggests a chart rule. Right? Like I think that you can do things that aren't acceptable in church, but you've been going to the world in L.A. Chow that ain't that thing. But teen pregnancy is one of those things that whether you're in the church with a grocery store, people realize that there's something that's happened here that is out of sequence. And so the weight existing with, you know, this proverbial scar, scarlet letter was the most embarrassing thing that I felt like I had to deal with, but also I really feel like because of my personality, because of how disconnected I felt from faith that my son really protected me. I think that in the moment I saw it as embarrassment, but I think that he gave me this sense of identity, this sense of responsibility where I couldn't go too far. Right. I think I would have been a lot more adventurous, a lot more dangerous, a lot more disposable as it related to my worth and identity if I didn't have this little person counting on me. And so you gave me a grounding and a weight that I think I needed at an early age because I think later teens, early 20s without having him in my life that I don't know that I would be here. Because you know, I was down for whatever. With the baby. Well, you know, next time, just all true. But I just, he became gravity for me in a world that was spinning very fast and a life where I wasn't always sure that I fit. My son became this puzzle piece that I knew I had to handle one too. And so though publicly there was some embarrassment, I think the process of time has been built to me that I needed him to tether me to something that was real. You know, one thing I'm wondering about in between all of that before all of that happened, we were in West Virginia. And moving from West Virginia to Dallas, do you think that that because by that time my ministry was exploding and I was doing mega fast and woman Ireland was exploding, traveling all over the world on the cover magazines. And all of a sudden people had a microscope and a telescope into our house and into our lives. Do you think it would have been easier to navigate head? We had you gone through that what we were in West Virginia. No, let me tell you why because you know, I've had to look at this through several lenses. I think that more than anything, I think that because your life took off so rapidly that we needed an interpreter a translator. And I'm not sure that we would have had that in West Virginia or text this someone that this is what's happening. This is where you fit. It's okay. And I think that things just took off so quickly. I guess that I have to ask you, do you think that had we lived in West Virginia and maybe things hadn't taken off so quickly? Do you think that it would have maybe shifted the presence and ability to kind of help us navigate what was happening? Not just in your world, but in our own little words of development and change and puberty. I think it would have been in some ways I think it would have been tougher because small towns have a tendency to be paid in place. And where everybody's whispering and everybody's talking is a different kind of trauma. So you don't have to worry about the news reporters and the cover magazines and all that kind of stuff. But you have to worry about the beauty shop and the barber shop and all the people whispering about all those sorts of things. The one thing that gives that some advantages, I think a lot of women related to your story in the most amazing way. Fast forward to, I never said anything. So they need to understand that. I never publicly said anything all throughout the pregnancy because I felt like it was your story to tell. And I think a lot of times parents take it upon themselves to tell their children's story before they're ready emotionally to be able to handle it. And I wanted you to handle it in your own words and in your own language. I didn't know you were going to handle it, but you were introducing me in front of about 20,000 people as we had woman, our loose and leg wood. I had my son Malachi at the age of 14 and there are no thoughts in the room that I had and one time thought about myself. And I remember after coming back to church, my dad made Malkana stand up and he welcomed us back into the service. And I remember in that moment that I'm like, she had my back. What was that like for you? You know, I kind of did it thinking that it would make because I was blogging at the time. Okay. So I started this blog and at the time in my first marriage and I'm trying to figure out some of the recurring issues we were experiencing and like just how did I get here? Where this is my definition of love where I feel stuck, where anger is the closest emotion that I can feel something processing this through a blog. And then I'd end to use a blog kind of like with a prayer or something that I would hope someone would say to me and people started saying, oh my gosh, that's so inspiring. Or you gave me the words that I didn't know were tracked inside of me. And they started calling me inspiring and they started calling me authentic and vulnerable. And it started to feel like people were proud of me. People felt like this was ministry. And I felt like, you know what? I'm going to tell them that I got pregnant as a teenager so they will leave me. You know what I mean? Like this is not ministry. I'm just a girl. This is my story. And if I tell you this, then you will, you know, go away. You'll say, oh my god, she's not good enough. She's not that. And it was the very opposite thing that happened. Yes. Is this shocking? Yeah. And it continues to be shocking because I do whatever we can talk with that later. But but I yeah, it was very shocking to me because I think I had some experiences that grounded this theory in my head. Right. And the theory in my head was because you did this, you are not acceptable. You are not adequate. You have no place in ministry. And you should certainly not be talking about God. And I think I had some experiences that kind of grounded that. And so the fact that people kind of felt like maybe if she can figure out who God is, maybe if grace exists for her, it exists for me as well. And so I didn't know there were women who were 70 years old coming up to me. I had my baby at 13 to him. Like these little secrets that we were carrying around that were impacting who we saw ourselves as and impacting our ability to really trust what guys says about us because if I am fearfully and wonderfully made, but what about this baby, what about this abortion, what about this, what about these things that have happened to me? And you're telling me that there's a guy who will overlook, not overlook who will see through them because overlook makes it seem like he doesn't look at them at all. But he will see them and still say fearfully and wonderfully made and still say, I know what you did to ease the pain and I still love you. They're still hope for you. And I needed to believe that that was true. And I think that they did. You know, if it's really funny about that, you walked up on that stage expecting to be rejected. And so did I. So did I. I was a man. Nobody would publish a woman or a loose one. I first wrote the book. Nobody had any reference of men writing to women about the trauma that they've been through. Nobody was talking about molestation by being nobody was talking about spousal abuse and and and self-medication and all that kind of stuff. I started talking about all of it, but I walked up there with the same trepidation that you did expecting to be rejected. And instead got mobbed with people, which it took me a while to believe them. Even though they were coming in masses, my own insecurities made me wonder, was it really real? Could I really trust it? Is it really stable? Is it really going to stand? I thought it was really odd that you had the same kind of feelings that I did. And I was the youngest sibling. You were the youngest daughter and you go through that. But there's something about the youngest child that does something to you. You get to see the others ones grow up and you learn from them. And I think there's a certain compounded interest of wisdom that comes upon you as a result of seeing life as a warrior and then experiencing it for yourself. And it helps you to grow and to go. You did all of that. You, that way, when you got up on the stage and said that I was like totally shocked. I'm sure. I was shocked. You should have warned me. You should have texted me. Now could you tell me no? No. Doesn't my history show you that I'm not going to ask you? I don't think I would have. You don't think so? No, I don't think I would have. I just wanted you to be ready. I was never a shame to you. I was never. I don't think you would have said no because you were ashamed of me, but you're so protected. Oh my God. Yes. That I could see you saying no. I'll chew through you. I could see you doing all of those things. I don't think you never made me feel like you were ashamed of me, but I do think that I felt I felt your disappointment. Yeah. And I mean, as a parent myself, if I just try to put myself in your shoes, I could experience that. But I think because we had such a close bond before I got friends. Yeah. Like I was the one who would be up in the morning. That was the one who was like doing the business stuff and accounting and writing checks. If you guys were out of town, like if I we had just this bond and I could feel the shift in our relationship after I got pregnant. Wow. But it didn't feel like this. It didn't feel like a shame. It felt like disappointment. Yeah. I admit that I think it was disappointment, but it was unfair too because I didn't really see you as a human. I saw you as a princess. A daddy's girl. Didn't listen. This girl would stop. We'd be on the highway driving down 64. I was driving. She was too little. She would be sitting in the back seat and say, Daddy, I'm cold. And I would pull over to the side of the road on the interstate and take my coat off and wrap around her so they give you some indication of the closeness that existed between us. And I think that closeness is the glue that cemented our relationship, whether ups or downs, because it had a foundation. That foundation might be shaken, but it doesn't crack because if it starts out with a solidarity, it survives everything. We can talk and never open our mouth. We can look at each other and have a complete conversation across the table and nobody knows that we're having it. And I think it helped us to endure many of the things that came along the way. Chapter number three. First marriage and divorce. Let's talk a little bit about after going through that, when you decided to get married, did you think that getting married would sort of bring a legitimacy and correction to your life? And were you disappointed when you ran into a bad marriage, a toxic relationship, and hard times was it a disappointment from what you had hoped it would bring you? It was initially, I certainly thought that it would fix it. I think that you also have to realize that while you were out and we were traveling, we would be in youth management. This is the peak of purity culture, where they would say things to girls like if I took a sucker and passed it around this room by time it got to the last person, no one would want it. That's how your body is. If you don't have your virginity, then your damaged goods, and they would be getting married to Jesus and wearing a white dress. And so here I am with a baby on my head. And I'm thinking to myself, I will never be one of the good girls. Ever. I just never be one of the good girls. I lost. And so marriage felt like, and I think in many ways, the church is undoing some of this narrative for women in general, where it's marriages surprise. Not your intellect, not your education, not your entrepreneurship. If you give married, then you did it all. And so I think I fell for that narrative. It's not just in the church, it's in the culture too, right? Senarella needs her prince charming. And so if I give married, that'll fix everything. Now here I am married, and you're not allowed to me. Excuse me. Yeah. Like what am I supposed to do now? But I didn't realize that there is an element of reflection in the person who you partner with. Right. And the moment that I stopped being disappointed that I didn't get the fairy tale and started looking at the mirror, what is it about this dynamic that is feeding me, fueling me, hurting me, breaking me? And can I really stand living like this forever? And I thought to myself, you know what? I've already missed that. I've already missed that. What's another one? Yeah. For the sake of having one whole parent for my two children at that time versus two people, I was on my way to prison. Yeah. So I'm on my way to prison. That's handed to the Bible. I mean, police, why are you wearing this car? I've told the story. I was on my way to prison. And I thought, if I don't get out of this, we're talking online for death. We really are. We're talking online for dead. We're talking about foster care. And I just felt like you know what? I've already missed that anything to be better than that. See, people don't know that behind the breaches are gangster. They may know by the breaching a little bit. This is a little bit, but don't let it shock you there. It is a real gangster behind this person. And I have a little touch of it too. And so I can understand how you felt like that. It wasn't, people always talk about preacher's kids. But I think it's a deeper thing than that. The only difference between preacher's kids and other kids is that you live up under the light and the heat that comes from that light of being on stage where everybody can see you. But the reality, there are a lot of people who were not preacher's kids who had bad marriages, who went through the voices, who had children out of well, like all that kind of stuff. I think that the expectation that the preacher's kids inherit isn't we're supposed to be these divine people that come down on the cloud and have angels with harp singing all around us. Truth of the matter is our parents, my generation's parents, boomers parents were called the silent generation. They didn't say nothing. Okay. And they taught you to keep your mouth shut. Okay. So we were the generation that came along with what goes on in this house, stays in this house. Their generation didn't even bring up what goes on in the house. Okay. So we brought it up, but we the guard rails on our silence was induced by the way that we were raised and the country. I mean, we grew up off a Mayberry and I love Lucy and Lucy and her husband never slept in the same bed. So I mean, it wasn't a realistic expectation of life, but those were the images that were cast in front of us and they were impossible to live up to. Do you think that a lot of people in your generation who keep it 100, which we had to come to grow into, we had them still growing into it a little bit. I keep it about 80, but the idea of keeping it 100, did it serve you well as you look back on it or or dress it open you up where you've got the whole world looking into your life and expecting you to just tell everything about everything. Oh, that's such a layered question. I think it depends on the dig emotional wellness and state of the person who's sharing their story. Because I do think that if you're not well when you share your story, you're sharing your story because you want to be affirmed, you want to be seen, you need to be liked, you want to feel better because maybe you didn't get that in other areas of your life. And now the internet represents the place of restoration where it'll fix the cracks in your self-esteem and your self-image. I do think that for people who utilize it the way I want to think that I use it is that I don't share it until I'm ready for it to be criticized day of phrase, which means there's a certain level of healing, at least a scribe that has to be over what I'm sharing before I put it out in court, because I recognize that I'm opening myself up to you know, all the manners of opinions. What I will say is that I think it is serving me and I think time won't tell in 30 years, I think that was all of that idea. There's actually really the ex. It was terrible. But right now, that's right. But right now, I feel like especially in this transition, it's helping me to solve the legs off the pedestal before they can put me on it. There was something that you said when we hit women in our legwood and that was your coming out to the world experience. You said, and I thought it was a very, a shield, a very strong and effective shield. You said, it doesn't matter what you say about me. There's nothing that you can say or think about me that I had not said or thought about myself. You disarmed the audience from being critical because you were self-deprecating in such a way that it put it on a scale where I think immediately people knew that you got it, that you had already suffered from it. And for the most part, it resonated with them in a very profound way. As you went forward from there and started to do woman evolve, you do around you women inside the church and outside the church who did not have that kind of acceptance or strength always to keep it 100. Regardless of the generation, it's sometimes I think we are too stereotypical in our ideas about generations because there are some oaths for keeping 100 and there are some young folks that keep things to themselves. So it has a lot to do with how you were trained, where you grew up, what region of the world, what culture you come from, all of that plays into the makeup and the mystery, the mystery of you. And I think that's what makes us so fantastic is that we are a mystery, gradually unraveled and you are exactly right. 30 years from now you may think differently than you do right now and that's okay. Shame on you if you live 30 more years and still think the way you think now. You live 30 more years and didn't learn if you learn one thing a year, in 30 years you're going to be different. Not to say what you think now is wrong, but the times have changed. She know what I think is hard about that reality because to your point, if our ideas aren't changing, then we're stuck. As we're being exposed, as we're gaining experience, if our perspectives aren't expanding, if not totally evolving from where they once were, then I think there's something wrong with that. The only issue with that is I think that the way that the internet and social media and chatter is that it nails you to who you are now. And it doesn't give you space to say, oh, I'm learning, I'm growing, I'm changing. And so a few months ago, I kind of came to this reality that like I am going to make sure that everyone knows that I have accepted that life is a classroom and I am a forever student. And so yes, I'm the co-signor pastor, yes, I'm the founder, well yes, all of those things that make you feel like, oh, she must have figured out, like I fringe reading my bio because I know when someone else is hearing that bio that it sounds like this as a person who has it figured out. And I assure you from the bottom of my heart, I am literally just a girl sharing what I'm learning along the way. And I have to keep putting that in front of people because they will dehumanize you. Yes, yes, yes. With the treatment, they will dehumanize you with success and influence. And like I can't tell people, hey, leave me alone, I'm off you, you know what I mean? Like stay away, stay away. I can't help the fact that I have influence, I can't help it. I try. It didn't work. And so now it's like, how am I going to navigate? How am I going to be a steward of it? And I feel like my job is to constantly show you my scars, show you my wounds and then point you to the one who has been a healer. Right. Showing you to the one who can show you how to keep walking. But if we do not as leaders make it our mission to keep our humanity in front of people, yes, they will deify you. Yeah. And so it's hard though because when you put your humanity in front of people, you're opening yourself up for creedison. Right. So it's easy to just show the highlight. But that just solidifies the dehumanization. And so you're going to see me in my body. You look, I'm going to be dressed. I'm going to switch my wings. I'm going to put on your clothes. But I'm going to be on my body. I'm going to be taking care of my kids. I'm going to be cooking. I want to make sure that you have a well-rounded view of what it means to be all of who I am. Not that I'm looking for your validation, but I just feel like you should have a full scope. You are a very authentic person and have grown to be an increasingly authentic person. And I don't think that I can think of many examples of people who have been as authentic. There are a few. But from the platform and the height and the global perspective of who you are, that takes a great deal of courage. And when I think about you, it reminded me of something, I was going through Charlotte Airport years, years, years ago. I was maybe your age. And I ran into Bishop Campbell. And he looked at me and he shook his head. He felt so sorry for me. He said, you've lost something. You'll never be able to regain. And I said, what is that? He said, normalcy. And kept on walking. And it haunted me. But it was so prophetic. To the loss of normalcy, the loss to have a bad hair day, the loss of wearing a hair by the loss of being able to lose your wig while you preaching. And then I didn't preach for six weeks after that. I think I upset my father taking my wig off. No, it didn't bother me. I know. I called you to ask him like, listen, you make the schedule. I haven't been up there since my, and then other people had their waves on the altar. I've been low. We have really done it now. Yeah, it was different. It was shocking. It wasn't on purpose. I didn't have a choice. Yeah, yeah. I know you didn't pick it. I know you were trying to be, to be sensational. But the way you handled it, there's something, there's some kind of strength and not allowing the things you have to have you. Yeah. And you know, I think that God doesn't mind you having things. I think He minds things having you. And whether we're going to know we, heels and no heels, kick my heels off, jump up and down. You've always never let any of that stop you from doing what he told you to do, which gets down to an unusual amount of focus that you have on your purpose and not just your person. And I think that's really fascinating. I'm wondering, do you think about it that way? Do you think about it from the perspective of your focus being your purpose rather than your person? Or do you, I know before you get up, you're thinking about you to some degree. But once you get up, do you get lost in your calling? For sure. When I'm up there, the only thing that matters is what's happening in that moment. Sometimes I watch clips to me preaching and it doesn't feel like who I am when I'm not preaching at all. Because I just, I don't feel, I don't the way I be if I cut that is just complete surrender and passion for whatever the messages that God has given me. But I certainly take that there seriously. And then when it's over, I actually have protected my sense of norm and see. I think the privilege of being able to to watch you lose your words. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that. That I'm fiercely protective of relying. And so you always talk about like how I could get off the stage and you know, preach and the glory show up and people be at the altar and I will grab a paper bag and fried chicken and go to girls and go home like nothing happened because for me all that happened was God. You are one of the few preachers that I have ever met in my life who can preach a message that is very explosive in the congregation. And as soon as you not even do wait till you get home and start frying chicken. As soon as you get in the hallway, you act like, oh, I can do that. You know, you have a ability to slip right back into that normalcy and be surrounded by your kids and your husband and exit. Exit like Elvis Presley, y'all. She can exit like Elvis Presley and be very comfortable in some house code and some turnover of shoes and making it do what it do. And you have never neglected being a mother and a wife for being a preacher. And I think sometimes career women and career men often for say who they are at home because they feel like you have to make a choice. How do you manage being both things so proficiently? Chapter number four, learning, growing, changing. First of all, I want to say that part of the reason why when I get finished preaching that I just kind of log off is because for me, like, this is my off-frame. And I say everything guys told me to say the best way I know how to say it. I study and once I leave it up there, I'm I did it. Like, this is my off-frame. My identity is with my family. And I realize that the only way that I can show up there is it's I am who I am with them. I don't want to wreck the room and come home and my house feels erect. I want to minister to my children the same way I minister to the people who are in the room. And it's really important to me that they feel seeing that they feel hurt and that I can pour into them with intention. And so maintaining that connection, maintain I mean, when you guys finished speaking, there were swarms of people around. I'm great, great. But they ran over us to get to you. Yeah. And we didn't know how to translate that. Great. And so I think for me, like, Ella wants to grab my hand. And I know what it's like to wonder, like, is that person's done my mom? Right. You know, like, is that person still care that I got home or tonight? And sometimes I worry that maybe I'm a little overkill with it. And I want to show them ballots. But I think right now it's just really important to me, especially if we're in a transition that I hang onto them in the midst of the transition. I think you're bounding. You know, in your ability to slip from one thing into another, I know that that was a very difficult period in you, all those lives to be little kids. And it couldn't hardly get to me for all the people that were swarmed around me. My mindset at the time was your mother's got you. Okay. But you are their mother. Now, my mom said wasn't right because I didn't realize how significant a father's presence is to a child. I learned that from you. When you start talking about always learning, I think that if you allow your ego as a parent to make you feel like you're always the teacher, you will miss a class. Because while you're teaching your children, your children are teaching you. And I didn't see the significance of my presence around you, you all in that setting and that you were intimidated by everybody calling me their day at and you know, that's my spiritual father and you all were over there fussing and murmuring and mousers and saying, no, no, no, no, that's my real father. What I was proud of was to learn that some kind of way we survived it and landed on our feet as a family. And I can see why a lot of families don't. I can see why a lot of families fall apart. I can see where a lot of families end up substituting wholeness with self-medication. And the parent doesn't understand why the child is acting out because you have regularly relegated to someone else a role that only you can play. You know, I do think there's a level of emotional and childish required to get to that space of reconciliation. But for me, how I've reconciled those difficult realities from my childhood is that if I were you and I did not have you, I would have done the same thing. The only reason why I am even conscious enough to not do the same thing is because I had a model and example. And I feel like that goes in both directions, right? The only reason why I could sit down and handle myself in an interview or to navigate large rooms without feel as far as because I had you. And so your life has been a lesson for me in many ways. But I can see how rapid it is to go from expected rejection to overwhelming, I guess, accepted. And I do mean I guess, exception. Because you know what I mean? Like it's not exactly acceptance. It's the host of the end of the day in crucifixion tomorrow. So to live in this consistent state of vulnerability where you have to serve people but not need them. But you do need them. Because sometimes that's the way that loves us. That's the way you and you got to be in relationship with them. So it can't be sent off. But like I get it. And I get how the last thing you're thinking is this seven-year-old girl once we'd hold her hand and take her for ice cream. That seems trivial. And the midst of it all, I think what we know now is that it builds bonds and connection. It is small but long-term. It plays a role. Absolutely. But if I did not hand you, I wouldn't know that I would have done the same things. And so for me, it's well in my soul. You're inviting me to make me cry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm telling you right now. I mean that though. And I think it's important that you hear that when I look at your life that I don't look at it just from the lens of victimhood. That I don't just see the loss without the benefits. And that I realize that if I had your hand, I would have played it the same way. And my children would maybe be sitting across for me one day. So you won there and we did well there. But this area could have been better. I get that. And I think thank you. Thank you for the sacrifices. Thank you for allowing your life to be a lesson in every sense of that word. Thank you for still showing up. Even after hearing that maybe there were things that could have been better. It'd be so much easier to be like you know what? I think the best I could do forget y'all. You're right. But you keep showing up. And I think the chief showed up in times where you knew we were still trying to figure out what does the father relationship look like or what we were still nursing homes. You never abandoned us. And you didn't allow our hurts and make you stay away. I never would. I never will. I never will. That you can tell. And I never will. Good or bad. Up or down famous and not famous. Successful or failure or bringing Oreo cookies to a jail cell. God forbid. But I never will. And then the other thing to be honest to be completely honest with you about the role of a father with children. My father got sick when I was 10. He died when I was 16. So without a pattern, it's hard to make a pair of pants and have no pattern. So I never saw that my grandfather died when he was 20. Born years old. He was murdered when he was 21 years old. My other grandfather was dead when I was born. So I didn't grow up with that. That role. And especially where daughters are concerned. Because I knew what it was to be a son and have fathers younger. Well father hunger. But I did not know what it was. How important a father is to a daughter. And I think that we have to look at each other through the lens of what you had on the table was all you had to serve for dinner. It's so that's so good. I do think because you know my generation is very intentional. I'm not protecting their mental health. The emotional real estate. And we have a generation where they're putting their parents off. Right. Because they don't get it. They don't understand they won't take ownership. And I think as much as it is important for us to make sure that we are protecting our mental and emotional real estate. That I think if there's a possibility for reunification. That is going to happen with us removing our expectations. And if we are unwilling to send our expectations to the side. Not because they're not legitimate. Not because they don't matter. But if you're going to see this person as a person and not the parent that failed you. If you think about what it means to be a 15 year old boy who's taking care of his father with an illness. Whose grandfather is gone. And then that's the person who you want to pick you up and take your ice cream and plant your hair. And you all these things like how? Right. Right. Right. You know what I mean? I did have that idea. That father that is primarily based off of things I've seen on television. Yeah. And some of the most iconic fathers on television were not iconic people off the screen. So none of this is real. You know, I think there's a level of maturing that gets us to a space where we say, okay, well none of this is real. Now because I know this isn't real. But maybe this doesn't change the way the person showing up in my life. What boundaries do I need to have? What distance do I need to create? Do I need to create what? How to communicate? Because I think you can do the planning after. But I think to really level the playing field, you got to look at the whole picture. Sometimes we're asking people to show up in ways they literally don't know how to show up. That's true. And the other thing we're asking them to be more perfect as parents than we were as children. Yeah. You know, and I always say I can see everybody in the room with me. Now I'm not talking about toxic relationships where you're physically abused and and tormented and a thoughtful parents and the ridiculous horrendous things that some people have gone through molested and all that kind of stuff. That's terrible, terrible stuff. But I'm talking about I didn't take you for ice cream or I was late for the prime or that sort of thing. Or they didn't show up in the way that you needed them to do. And maybe didn't even verbalize or you verbalized and they weren't listening. All of that. If you throw your parents away, you'll probably end up throwing your children away. Let me just let me tell you why because they're going to they're going to disappoint you too. And if you get in the habit of throwing away everybody who disappoints you, you end up with nobody. Husband, wife, siblings, you know, you have to relationships are hard work. We've got to have a generational conversation. Okay. Okay. The only thing I will offer to that perspective is that and I think it's actually very adorable that we have a generation of people who are not wanting to have children because I do think that everything in research suggests that parental presence is directly connected to the outcomes of children. And the only reason why I think you probably wouldn't throw your children away if you threw your parents away is because part of who we have become is a result of what we did or did receive from our parents. Of course there are other environmental things like play a role factor that play a role in that and education and social. Like there are all types of factors but research has shown that when parents are there and I think it's more than just taking me for eyes care. I think ultimately when a child is frustrated with a parent, whether it's a young child or an adult child, it's because I don't feel single. Which is which is also true about marriage. I know. You can be married to somebody sleeping in the bed with them every night and not feel seen. Oh no. You can birth a child who's so quick to run out there and play with people their own age at times that you want to spend time with them. Your kids are a little boy. You got all age. You got a lot of you know but there's a certain point in their development that they don't want to hang with you anymore. So if you did hang with them when they were children and then all of a sudden they don't be bothered with you and you were running behind them and they're saying you know all know I'll be back in a little while where they come visit you on the holiday. My point is simply this. Not feeling seen doesn't stop with childhood. It goes to work with you. It goes to church with you. It's being able to sing in the choir and they never call on you for solo. It goes to being married to somebody who was not sensitized to your feelings. What I am saying is relationships are hard work for sure. And you have to put the work in and if you train yourself to always throw away something because it's hard you end up with nothing because everything's hard. Being an entrepreneur is hard. Going to work is hard. Going back to school you going back to school. I didn't add that to the mix. On top of everything else this girl gets up like four o'clock in the morning and boxes in the morning. Four o'clock in the morning I am in a coma. Okay. An absolute coma. And you go from son up to sundown and your children ate range and age from what to what? They are nine and at my bonus baby is 28 line for nine to twenty nine. As she feeds all of them she makes homemade biscuits. She makes rolls from scratch. She has Thanksgiving spreads like she's somebody's grandmother. She does all that stuff and still gets her hair done. Gets her makeup on and comes out there in those hills. But the girl you see on the stage with the eels is not the mama they see at home. She's not walking around her house with a bowl around her neck. You know I mean you she's got flour up under her fingernails and went back to school. Why did you do that? What? You could easily I mean you've done enough now. You've had enough bestseller you've you've introduced yourself to the world. You've got a husband that loves you. You've got children that respect you. Why did you take on that extra weight? I certainly just don't feel like I've messed out my potential and I feel like there's a distance between my current drones and my knowledge. And I feel like for the type of impact that I think ultimately matters in the world because right now you know the books and all that stuff like that's cool for my name. But I want from what we evolved to really be a place where women had the opportunity to get practical resources to involve from difficult circumstances. Whether that's incarceration being unhoused, teen pregnancy. And in order to really erect those types of programs it does require a deep understanding of the research in what produces positive outcomes and programs that have been shown to be instrumental in producing those outcomes. And I could hire someone who knows the research and hire someone who understands it but that's my ultimate heart and passion is to really see it through and understand it and qualify it because I like my name and I like to work behind it. And I just feel like at my age I still have an opportunity to do the work required to go and get a degree. And they say four years is going to pass whether you do it now or later. And so that's what I want to do. I want to connect the dots because I have a sensing. I think this is true. I think these could produce positive outcomes but I don't have the research and knowledge. And I want to go get it so that I can continue to I earthquake. I'd space in five. To be fair you were almost finished anyway. Yeah. So you didn't have far to go to complete but you're trying to complete chapter number five. Father's heart attack. Just time a year ago the Sunday before Thanksgiving I was preaching in the church. I sat down in the chair. I said down in the chair and had a massive heart attack. From a daughter's perspective. What was that like for you? It was terrifying. I was at home with Ellen and so we were watching to get and she was immediately panicked. What's going on with grain? I didn't you know for sure what it was. It looked like a stroke. If I had to have guessed it and like it looks like so. I get a sad old workout clothes. I threw on a hoodie and I was just headed towards the church with no idea what was going on. I was afraid but also felt very protective. One I needed to be present for Ellen was afraid but then I needed to understand who's with my neck. Who's taking care of him. What has to be going to? How do we make sure that he's protected and can have medical privacy when he gets there? I think a part of me really went into I can like your father. Yeah it wasn't like now's not the time for breakdown. You're right. We're in a fight and we don't know what it is and we got to take care of him. Calling security was the plan was the strategy of people watching online. They're afraid, they're nervous. They love him. What is our messaging to them? We don't have anything to tell them yet. So very much so Christ is mode. I was there by time I beat the ambulance to the hospital and I don't look close to the hospital so that I could tell you about how I was driving. And I saw them will you win and I could tell that you were you were not totally there. But I think you said something. I don't remember what and I thought to myself he's going to be okay. He's going to be okay. Mom was surprised. I mean I'm talking to the nurses you know your telephone number, your insurance. Like now it just wasn't so far to breakdown. My husband was at a time so I wasn't even like I could get someone else and so it's I think me and Dexter were kind of manning things but I will say by time I did have an opportunity to have a breakdown you were cutting up in the hospital room. Which robbed me of my opportunities. You the who what what we even and did you call this person and did you take her this and I was like you see now I'm really having breakdown and you've not really made to the other side which you know I was grateful but also I didn't I didn't really process it fully what that moment could have represented. I think it took me some time to get to a space to acknowledge the fear connected to it but I had the victory before you know the fear could be processed. It was amazing to watch how you walked in and started calling the right people informing the right people talking to the doctors. I collect your father protecting nobody nobody goes in there nobody goes in there don't go near him you know you know you turned exactly into me and that that was that was really really nice and I'm glad that I came out of that that we get to laugh about it only get to joke about it and not it's been a year. Yeah and I'm going pretty well. We're here yeah so thank you. You were very obedient this time of year go to yeah run that back we can do that too you know. You weren't telling me. Yeah let her in things. Yeah you didn't even see it. Yeah you weren't we got red stains. Well I didn't want to die. Well yeah but now you missed the point see let me explain this okay I have a tendency to be bowed and and go the extra mile when when my wife's cure all for everything is going to be in and lay down and rest I'm the kind of person that that will fight it. The doctors cure although just to be clear with the doctor's cure all this. Yeah yeah whatever it was I did it I did it and did it a lot you know and took the medications and and went through the therapy and did all the things that my wife had just got through doing with the need for placement our life has not been what you think she she didn't walk for a year. A lot of her two years by telling me figure out what was one. Yeah well a year before the surgery and then a year in recovery and so while we were dealing with all the other dramas that life brings to us we were also dealing with her not being in fact. So Rita didn't start walking until I started dying. And and there I was having a heart attack was the first time she got up and started walking without any kind of cane or walker or anything and she's been walking ever since. But I've surrounded myself with some strong people in my life and some strong women in my life and I was just curious to wonder what that looked like from from your point of view as a daughter. For me as a father always being used to being the super rad and to be in a vulnerable condition. You know I didn't want them all over me. I was telling them to get back get back you know I walk out of here and you know they're yelling at me to get in the wheelchair and I was trying to trying to walk because I did not I didn't know what was wrong with me and I did not I did not realize that I was as sick as I was that it was as serious as I was and the first time I heard massive heart attack I had gone I was an ICU and and they were getting ready to do surgery and I thought but first reaction was to look over at the doctor and say get out of here you know because I had none of this warning signs that I'd read about none of them had come along I don't I thought I needed hydration you know it felt like that I just fell asleep and and and went some place quiet and beautiful and peaceful until I came back to myself and then this nerve being bossy and can't think for us like like look how you inherited it so I'm criticizing but uh that's a great thing about family that's the great thing about family that there's a little piece of your mother and a little piece of me and every step you take and that that will never go away. Okay chapter number six blending families let's back up a minute and talk about blended families you talked about your bonus children and it made me think about you married a pastor one her one church I like you marry a pastor who had gone through a divorce okay that's not uh uncommon now we we see more you had gone through a divorce uh bought a house here in Dallas uh taking care of yourself always been independent always been resourceful all it was was getting a degree and accounting at first and so you handled your money well and you did all of that very well so you didn't necessarily need somebody to help take care of you you could take care of yourself I'm very proud of that I'm very proud of that one of my goals in life was to raise daughters that might want a man but don't need one in order to be able to be so sufficient and be able to sustain himself you have lived up to that to the highest degree but you came into you you fell in love with this dude who's a pastor who turned up to be a wonderful guy after I examined him yes I examined him with a stephoscope uh asked him everything you could think of in the world and looking at his eye like this trying to see because I never wanted you to ever be hurt again man what was amazing though his wife who your bonus children that still have a relationship of course that's their mother but she was in the church they had a good time I come out to California yo to have dinner with my daughter and her new husband and and some of his relatives and whatever your migration I come out there and I didn't I didn't even realize who the girl was and to look past her and and my wife said to me you know who that is don't you I said no and and she told me and I said get out of here she's having his ex-wife over at her house for dinner and you never made war I think the world needs to be here how did you do that I mean now she lives out here in Dallas you know she comes to church from time to time we've interacted and so the ex-wife and the new wife get along with yeah with each other without pulling each other's hair out yeah and I saw you put the work into that and and her put the work into finding a way to make it work talk to people who are going through the complications of blended families baby mama drama ex-wives ex-husbands very few people navigate that kind of stuff very well well you know I have to say I think it's it's multi-layered and that her PT was very honoring in their transition and their divorce and so to my knowledge there wasn't any bitch for y'all towards him and so I mean obviously you're not married to someone that long and it's just a happy separation but there wasn't this deep sense of betrayal and dishonor and so it was as amicable as a divorce can be so complicated but when he and I got married I think we wanted the same things for the kids and I didn't want to bring my kids into a toxic situation and I don't think she wanted her kids in a toxic situation I don't think that she would have volunteered to go to dinner to me I wouldn't have volunteered to go to dinner with her but do we want Isaiah's homework turned in for sure yeah do we want him on time for his field trip absolutely and you know no slight to to PT like he's not necessarily in the nuts and bolts of like what kind of snack does he need and does he need a paper sack lunch today and so I was communicating with him like trying to get information as the kids were coming over and finally it's kind of like I just talked to her directly and and we wanted the same things for the kids and then she was likeable like we laughed at the same thing like girl this teacher get on our nerves and we began to build a rapport primarily because we wanted the same thing for the kids and so I think that if you're blaming a family the first thing you have to do is make sure that you and your partner have the same goals and ideas for what successful family and parenting looks like before you even include the external or ex partners is like do you and this person have the same ideas about what family looks like what mayors looks like when PT and our first planning our family I didn't discipline his children he did disappoint discipline wine we had a little huddle I don't think that's appropriate I don't think it's appropriate how to handle it and then whoever had the closer bond showed up for that child until we got to know one another we dated with the children so we would take the kids on group date so that they weren't just thrust into this family dynamic and so I think that those types of things laid a foundation but ultimately the mutual desire to create a safe haven for the children allowed us to blame the family and I think that it's difficult when people aren't at a space yet where they aren't over the hurt they aren't over the separation they still feel in some way they were wrong and so they want to hold the partner accountable by how they show up in the relationship with the children and I think that there is a level of healing forgiveness release that you have to have in order to preserve what's left for the children and their childhood and future and I think that we were on the same page about that yeah that's very unusual I mean one thing I see what you mean that the common bond was the welfare of the children and what was best for them that's the way it's supposed to be that's supposed to be the primary goal but it's also very very difficult because there's insecurities you know who wants your ex-wife or ex-husband hanging around you know if you you had to be very secure in your relationship with PT he had to be very antagonist in his relationship with her very seldom do you find these ideal situations there's there's simple jealousies you got your arm around her I don't want to see you with your arm around her you know you are kissing in the kitchen I back out of the kitchen there's all kinds of stuff that can go wrong which goes back to my original point just because something is hard doesn't mean you throw it away and you work through it and I watched you work through it with with Grayson and be nice and fix plates and and do all of that kind of stuff and I watched her I like you who you know and I think that's a there's something that that our world needs to learn from that not just marriages but the country if we we kill anybody who's different we we we destroy below we got to be better than somebody else we're we're we're losing our sense PT preach the message recently the love of many has wax cold that phrase just stays with me the love of many has wax cold you you had to have a warm love that enable you to do that where you put others above yourself and I think when you are narcissistic you have a proclivity that says it's about me it's not about her this is our house I don't want her in our house this is our dinner table I don't want her around our table or her saying I ain't coming in her house I don't want to sit around her table you have to there is no love without sacrifice there is the cost of love is sacrifice to some degree not abuse right but you have to give an inch to hope for a mile do you agree totally I am and that's not to say that we didn't have challenges because she and I talked about this on my podcast because like I think the kids home with cookie she said she could have cookies in the charts and felt you know what I mean because don't I don't care how and then she said when did she try and she's like I'll never throw those cookies away and when our oldest daughter was getting married she wanted her dad and her mom to walk her down the aisle and I couldn't help it and I was officiating with her with my husband and so so PT and his ex-wife or her mom and dad are walking her down the aisle and I'm standing there as the efficient and I'm thinking to myself you know I'm sure that this is what they dreamed of you know what I mean when they first got married no one gets married to get divorced they probably thought that they would have this moment together and so recognizing that I you know our love and life has modified and altered that story it makes me compassionate as well I only went dress shopping for that same daughter I took picture I took the picture of them together and then she goes no we want you in it too and so I do think that there's this level of empathy because I'm like no one's going to dress shopping thinking that their husband's new wife is going to be with them I'm cool I'll take the picture right and after I took the picture she's like I want you in it and so I do think that she had the same compassion that I experienced in the children I've seen firsthand from their mother and I respect that because the compassion of love I experienced from her children has made my whole better when you start talking about women in general not just this case here how do you avoid being defensive well I think context is that I used to I haven't I haven't always been a girls girl because I felt like women who were better than I was who didn't have the scars that I didn't have who were more successful than I was thought that they were better than me is I thought I'd beat them to the punch and being judgmental and critical with them and so it which made me defensive with other women so I see women who aren't at a stage where they're ready to support and encourage other women as women who are still healing because there's no way that you can really live in the fullness of what it needs to be a woman the difficulty that comes with that the beauty that comes with it the challenges and look at another woman and hate on her unless there's a part of you that hates the bit of yourself and so I don't take it personally wow that's just taking a breath you're gonna let that something in for me yeah in other words it's you're reflecting I don't know you're reflecting the anger that you have toward her you're reflecting I think that's also true with men I've never seen a man who beat his wife and loved himself what chapter number seven ex husband cheating I think there's some kind of deflection where you substitute the anger and the hostility of your own insecurities and failures and transpose it onto the woman you're with or take the anger that you had for your mother and respected her too much keep executed and put it out on you on your wife and so there has to be a lot of introspection what would you say to women who thinks strength is anger you know because this is age where you know pop my neck I'll tell you right to you don't come and you know you know what would you say to women who think strength is anger and I I suppose it would also be true for men because there are men who are very very angry yeah what's the answer I would say to a woman who has learned that strength is anger um that anger is strength rather is that I'm sorry I would say I'm sorry that that was true free yeah that the only way that you could survive was to be angry that you couldn't afford to be emotional or vulnerable that anger was the only way that you could survive whatever you went through and then I would offer a perspective that maybe she doesn't have to be angry forever that maybe the anger was necessary for the moment you were in there then but that perhaps life is changed and if life is changed maybe release a little anger so that you can experience what's available in this moment may be the most maybe the strongest thing you can do you know I hate that you gave a better answer than what I was going to give you know thank you so much just a minute just a little turning it's a busy bit the only reason I said it that way is because I just love being angry right oh I loved it oh I can feel it right now she yet to leave it somewhere inside me because it felt like you're not going to get over on me yeah we I won't do it I won't allow it I will protect myself absolutely not I loved it it was my way of saying absolutely not but then I got tired I feel like I needed to protect myself and put myself in positions where I had to pull from and I think having to exercise the muscle of pulling from something different like joy like peace like courage requires you to let go your definition of what it means to feel alive and to feel strong and so I have been passionate for the woman who felt like she always needs to be angry and angry will strengthen because she's out of protect herself I can't speak from a woman's point of view but well from a main point of view anger often is the only emotion that we are allowed to feel and that's it you know yeah big boys don't cry so we don't have a full vocabulary to express emotional intelligence and for the most part they're exceptions to the room the other thing is anger everything that affects us expresses as anger because anger is a camouflage that hurt wears not to be seen and for me in a lot of times the anger is is a full strength okay you go respect me if you come up in here you're not coming up in my all that need to go there what did you say you know all of that stuff I'm really afraid you're gonna leave or I'm nobody stays but it's easier for me to be mad about it rather than to admit to myself I miss you yeah I'm sorry I said that or I did that I'm sorry I let you down in that way not feeling reassured that my apology will be accepted maybe because I'm a repeat offender maybe because I have not resolved the issues it takes a long time to grow up and it's embarrassing to be 40 and 50 and still have 18 year old 20 year old problems it's embarrassing so it's always nice to just get mad and blow up and storm out the house but it's camouflage yeah and no matter how much you wear camouflage in the forest you are still not a tree and so I would say to the man you have to be prepared to risk coming out from under your fig leaves yourself the Bible will say it or coming out of your camouflage and face your own hurt and insecurity in order to begin to get well you can't heal if you can't admit what it is that you are feeling okay if I go to the doctor and I'm telling my toe is hurting but I really got a two thing and he put some mccure calm on my toe and I go out with my face swollen and throbbing it's not that I had a bad doctor I never would admit where the pain was really coming from and we have to be introspective enough to get down to where the pain is really coming from so from a male perspective that's my answer I just thought I'm like she was really were you ever almost arrested you know and had to go to the cps office to keep your kids tell the story okay well we saw my a that's a great segue coming off of anger bishop um you know anger is exactly what I was feeling I was in my first marriage and there was a we were having dinner and I looked at the window and I saw my husband at the time his car was running which I thought was strange and he was upstairs I was like I'm gonna sneak outside the house and see was why it's his car running I think I knew that there was someone in the car and when I thought there was a woman in the car and I was like what are you doing with my husband and she told me we're kicking one and I thought you know what else likes to kick it make I too like to kick it so I got in my car and I went forward every verse over and over again into the car while she was in it and he came outside hearing the clamor and thinking to himself what in the world could be happening here and he called the police symbol and when he called the police on me mind you I'm letting it Virginia so there's an element of isolation it's not like I could just I think if I were living anywhere else I probably would grab the kids I'm one to my parents but I'm there by myself and I don't have anywhere else that I can go there I had this one friend like I'm not gonna go to her house and they'll be the night me and my kids so I'm there and essentially on my own and they called the police on me and the officer came up to me and the car so there can that block them in from the ramming get over and over again and he goes what seems to be the problem here man then I go well my husband brought his girlfriend to our house and I had a problem with that and he goes okay I'm gonna talk to them and he talked to them and he came back to me and he like lives it I don't know what's going on here but I'm not gonna give you ticket I'm not gonna arrest you but I am gonna have to write to you uh because you've got kids in the house and because you have kids in the house they're gonna have to do a welfare check for you and the children and so he drove off with her literally stay the night with her left the next day to go to work um and I packed up the kids and I went home because I knew I was on my way to prison either that I couldn't afford to keep get a hungry like that without risk gain minutes of the series time in prison or losing my children I'm not sure um where that that rage from I don't know not sure what the next question is if the size further up there I don't like this yeah yes I know where you got it from yeah yes I have a little tab myself to pull my camera flops back yeah I can I can get with you but I have to uh but I'm just trying to let's go chapter number eight finding a part new uh this is testing I'm a boomer asking you about a generation of music that I'm like mess up but have you heard of this singer named Sierra yeah Sierra's prayer oh yes what the what the yes when you want to know about the fierce prayer you don't give me no credit I'm still here you know I'm still here what prayer do you believe women should say women looking for a make what should they be praying for I I subscribe to that because that little for me thing really eject my life as we just got to talk about yeah and I do think that we have an opportunity to show women that their value is beyond the role that they have a partnership I mean I have an incredible aspect and I love how true man you sling I did not pray for a man I did not pray for another marriage I pray instead that that was search my heart that God would reveal to me the areas in my life that he wanted to heal and develop and that I would qualify every person that came into my life as a part of that either I was being a part of their feeling in development or they were going to be a part of my own and anyone who would take away from that health that God will highlight them and give me the strength to walk away from them and so when I met Tarei I was met with the dilemma because though I was completely satisfied and my relationship with my children and my relationship with God and my life here in Dallas I bought my house I lived there over a year there was a part of me that knew that he was a part of the God's next health for me life I had a dilemma too when you came and told me you were moving the God's home I met Tee Tee yeah yeah yeah yeah that was that was that was I could still remember standing in the door watching your car pull off that's what I mean about attachments and and allowing learning to allow your children to have their own life and family rather than to say I didn't lose a daughter I gained the son that sounds nice but in reality for this car she'll man leave his mother and father take him to him a white they become one flesh and you're building family so sometimes we're having Thanksgiving dinner and you're cooking Thanksgiving dinner and letting that family have its own identity and develop its own culture comes with maturity that all roads don't need to your house all the time and and being able to come to your house for Thanksgiving dinner you know that's a transition for people who are used to being in control I'm not talking about it I know but I heard I got a friend my allegedly yeah yeah but but but freedom love without freedom isn't really love yeah and and you have to let people go so that they can be their highest and best self I have to say this to you before we cut off you you seem to have some stay you have celebrated your 10th year 10th year a marriage if you argue I never heard it if you fight I've never seen it we call PT cum by y'all but there's another there's another side there what what would you say is the secret in a time where people divorce in three years and four years what have you learned about life that keeps you coming home and keeps him coming home every night that who I marry 10 almost 11 years ago is both who I marry to now and not and I think that when I married the second time that I wasn't expecting to settle it to someone I was choosing who I wanted to grow up with and I felt like when you enter marriage with the perspective that this person's going to change and I'm going to change the question is can you change together and still feel at our core connected to one another and so I think that above all we have a friendship when we do get ready to fuss or you know have a disagreement like hit them and they're not just be like he looks at me a certain way I look at him a certain way like you know he was tripping right I'm like you whatever you know what I mean like we can have that type of dialogue I can tell him I can introduce myself to him I can say that I feel like I'm changing I don't feel like myself and he listens and he responds to that so I think friendship I think being willing to introduce yourself over and over again to one another I as you change and to be willing to accept that I'm not in control of this journey I'm just here to support it and so I would say if I do like ask anyone or to prepare anyone for marriage I would say can you marry this person right now as they are without anything changing and feel like you can spend the rest of your life with them and if you can say that that's a big step because the life I'm really like yeah I want them to know and there's that because I don't get married because you're a counting one those things growing and changing and developing and they may not but if you can marry this person as is as you're starting and the second thing is can you be flexible enough for when they change and in either direction towards growth and sometimes towards deterioration and can you be in the tension of that but I think the foundation of friendship and acceptance helps you to have flexibility as like ships you from from seasons I agree with that I also think that sometimes you marry your opposite because they're different from you and you date me so you know he was born in September and my mother was born in September and both of us were birthdays are on the 15th and they came we came from the same state we went to the same school we like that that that but yet you end up marrying somebody whose personality feels the gap in yours they're courageous where you are vulnerable they are vulnerable where you are courageous and then after you learn all that about them then you start trying to change them like somebody buying a fixer or a house and if you don't see your role as fixing the other person but accepting the other person you know and and drawing joy it's like your mother fixing the house up for Christmas you know if I was single there would not be a bulb on on the coffee table okay nothing that I got to take down again however I enjoy her enjoying and found out that's important to her and that gives her something that I can appreciate because it brings her joy you know and she enjoys what I enjoy because she understands that I'm not like her I don't I don't like isolation I'm not an introvert the becoming watch you start you start becoming like you tell it and it changes everything I've I've spent the last hour or so bantering talking sharing with you sitting here thinking what it's going to be like when you're sitting here and and Kenzie or Ella or sitting over there I hope it says wonderful of an experience as it is for me to stand here to sit here to look into the daughters dyes of my daughter and talk to you and be so proud of what you have because well that's gross I think that I'm feel good you feel good don't camouflage yeah I feel yeah no that's that's very very true I'm in all of all the things you may you might be simultaneously I'm in all and how you self correct I'm in all of how you are willing to take on new tasks and willing to be wrong and willing to to get it right and willing to do it over and willing to give a part of yourself to the world knowing that in so doing you're giving a part of yourself to people who don't always appreciate the gifts that you gave and yet you keep on giving that compassion and that ability to give is is is a god gift to to continue to give and not expect anything in return but get back up there and do it again especially when it's not your nature to be up there in the first place and I know that and you know that but the people who who watch don't know that chapter number nine gender roles evidently a recent article came out with Hollaberry talking about her husband saying that he didn't want to be in a relationship because of the gender roles had become blurred our gender roles still appropriate and do they still do they still exist well you know because I grew up watching you cook a monsatiox cooking I think that I've always had this perspective that the roles aren't as rigid but I do think that as we even see the emotional flexibility within men that we are seen some flexibility in what it wills to show up as a man and a woman in different relationships with women sometimes being higher earning has been their male counterparts it has had to make us kind of get out of this mentality of what it means to be evidently what it means to be a woman I think that there's a space for every expression of a little person is and I think that it's a good thing that we're seeing gender roles be challenged to limit it so that we can determine what is authentic to who we are versus what is this trying to fit into someone's box and where do we have space to maybe want to learn and where do we want to stay the same the very fact that we call it roles in plaz acting yeah you know and I think that we need to start not with the gender but with the acting yeah right and and and not have a pre scripted understanding of what just because I'm a man doesn't mean that I may pay bills will or that I make the most money or that I can't cook or that I can't so just because your woman doesn't mean that you made the best biscuits so so letting people do what they're best at doing is not a role that's letting me be me you know and and then then fitting our Merkle construct around our strengths and let whoever if you exceed at making money and I exceed at raising the kids that that's okay they're still a room through both of us at the table or vice versa we we tried to do what we do best I went out and earned the living I always was the breadwinner but your mother said down and paid the bills as right said I'm paid the bills nobody would get paid you know how they had the money said nothing to bank account she's good at that she she doesn't mind that and she'll trace down every little penny I'm more prepared to be the provider but not the distributor and I think part of the mystery of marriage is figuring out who's really good at what they're doing and who gets fulfillment out of doing what they're doing and let them do that rather than prescripting a role and I think this is what happens in a lot of marriages because in my day women played dark with all houses and they they had an idea what the husband should be and they're looking for a guy to play a role that he's never read the script yeah let me meet me not let me try out for a role in the play that you've already evaluated and you throw me away because I did not dish in well meet me love me accept me and as long as I am a contributing factor and not a deterrent in your life then let's let's craft what works best for us and keep everybody else in laws and neighbors out of our business because the marriage is personal that was one of the the best it by say I got when I was getting ready to get married to your mother it's that marriage is personal and it's not a one size fits all and you don't have to live up to anybody else's expectations chapter number 10 woman devolves so tell me this I've seen a woman that lose merge into woman devolver woman devolves was already going on woman that lose was out there I didn't want to be on one into the country how their woman that losing you on the other end of the country how in woman devolves and I felt like you're a woman so I can turn that over to you now they fuse together and become one entity what is your vision for woman devolves you know what's interesting so we had woman evolved after the transition and globalized field where for two years in a row we saw basically 40,000 women and we had to downsize because that stadium wasn't available for 2025 and in downsizing we actually moved over to an overflow section at Georgia World Congress Center and so we had 20,000 and state primary enough that then we had this overflow ex-flow experience and it taught me a valuable lesson about what growth looks like because the average person made say hey we had to downsize we're losing ground but in downsizing it allowed me an opportunity to drain that space at Georgia World Congress Center showed me that there is an untapped potential as it relates to the woman evolved experiential opportunity and so it shaped how I dream into a tality about woman evolved what does it look like to tell this story in many different facets not just with lie divots but how do you tell the stories of women who are struggling to evolve how do you tell the way that the story of women who made it to the other side and so I do think in many ways that I'm looking at our motto is no woman left behind as looking for the woman who has been left behind and creating connection points through content experiences social media that allows her to feel seen loved and then space to grow and evolve and so I'm dreaming a different dream about our experiences but also about our overall imprint as it relates to me the end Gerald is there ever do you foresee a time that you would ever have multiple locations even on multiple continents for sure and then miss the way there that's good that's what I thought to you we heard some horrible stats recently over 300,000 black women have left the workforce lost their jobs left please and heavy water tennis some of them have pushed out most of them pushed out forced out most many of them are breadwinners those of them that were not primary breadwinners contributed to the welfare of their family so while we look at that 300,000 which is a huge number it affects hundreds of thousands more people who are affected by that sort of thing how can we continue to empower women economically who are dealing with adversity of the time so we're living in that you know it's funny as before we had that stat about black women leaving the workforce we had statistics about black women in education and black women in entrepreneurship almost as if there was some type of preparation in advance for this downfall I think that now more than ever that we have an opportunity to take care of one another historically black women have taken care of not just themselves but other people in their communities and I think those who are in positions of power those who have been educated now have no choice but to figure out how do I again try and figure things out for my community but this time I'm hoping that we're able to do it with the sense of collaboration and with the tools and resources that were reported to us before this transition I want to believe that the pendulum will swing again as we know that history has this you know cyclical nature but I think in the meantime that we have to encourage one another to take care of one another and that means not waiting for someone to say what they need but being curious about our sisters if I was in her situation and I still had a job if I were in her situation I was a raised lady's children what would I need and how can I take care of her we're going to have to be proactive in taking care of one another and so on and get to one another's dreams. Chapter 11 celebrities are people too you know you you're at one LA when you were out there pestering with being the first lady for Pastor Torrey you already had like ten of those come to your church on a regular basis you're you're writing the middle of Hollywood so there was brandy would come by different people would come by your church a king a Kelly Rowland and many others how did that affect you and how do you think you've affected them. Oh I think if anything it helped me to see that people are people no matter how big and fancy their names and titles are that we all need the same Jesus that this world is hard on each of us in different ways and you with capacities and I think that hopefully we created a space where you know we didn't do like oh here's the IPC then if the IP insurance they just came in sat down got what they needed and left and so I think in normalizing their place of encounter that hopefully it made them feel like there's a safe space to just be human and I think for me it's a reminder to never be mesmerized by who a person is and forget that God may be giving you something that that person needs to balance those skills. Well so you weren't intimidated by who they were you dealt with the person who it because you and I talked earlier about understanding the difference between what you do on stage and who you are and losing normalcy. A lot of people that don't see famous people as normal people and they take part shots at them easily because they get to have another look at those other people and they demonize and criticize what often they are praying to be and they need a place to go and to counsel and to get healed and to get restored and to get encouragement even if it's not perfect even if they're not perfect the other people in the pubes aren't perfect either you know but finding a way we can't have people that are untouchable because we're more concerned about our brand than we are the welfare people you you have to be willing to get your hands in the dirt. The first thing we see about God is that he got his hands dirty. When Jesus comes with the woman card in the adultery he got his hands dirty and you got to be willing to get your hands dirty and have people walk away from you and you've done that and I think it's an exciting thing. Initially I feel like they didn't really understand if I was a woman preacher and not was to be fair I didn't either so we were all in the same boat a few shifts. I don't know because I'm not as traditional as some of the preachers who I grew up listening to are but I'm not as laid back as something together so I don't think they really knew what to do with but there have been some really incredible veterans and women's ministry that have loved on me and taken care of me. Marissa Thera and I was blogging when Marissa Thera was preaching she's been an incredible just I do think that there's a generation of just like I would call us up incoming women preachers that are building bonds and connections but I think initially everyone's trying to find their footing and knowing really knew what to do with me and I didn't know what to do with myself and so it's settling it's settling now. Terri, good that's a good thing because having a circle of people who get you it doesn't have to be a big circle. Jesus had Peter James a job but a circle whose right or die is very very valuable because this is harder. You know that want to fix and because you mentioned it and because I said it as well I think it's worth exploring like here but I think as a part of just my process and relationship with God is the expecting rejection. I don't think that's good. I want to fix that because I do think it changes and shapes the way I show up in ministry and perhaps in the world and what I expect or don't want from people and I don't want to live my life expecting rejection but I don't want to need acceptance but I do think to expect differently is something that I want to focus on in my next chapter. Like how do I chose this expectation? You know not for nothing. We said to the potter's house as co-sing your pastor's after the bishop joeves and there's an element of expecting rejection there and it constantly this idea of your quantity rejected from pregnancy to mild and I feel like for this next chapter of my life I want to shed the skin of expecting rejection but I don't know what I'm going to put on instead. You know I don't know if this is an answer or not but joe knowa after the flood got drunk. Yeah so what do you say? No. No. No, I'm not saying it. Okay, all right, just check it. Uh and the process of getting drunk once on in somewhere now they were discolors debate about it to get vand into him. Yeah. But nobody talks about the songs that covered him. Yeah. And I think you stop worrying about rejection when you have a circle of people around you that insulate you and and not condoning wrongdoing or anything like that but insulate you and are right or die as we would say. Uh they become a blanket now. The same guy who covered them that brought them through this flood they got reciprocity. That if whatever you want you give. Yeah. If you want love you give love if you want to smile you give smile and I think it comes back to you. It's an investment. It takes time. You're on the art together. You know. But but it comes back to you and it didn't always come back to you from every son or every person but it comes back to you and enough quantity that we don't read about nor getting drunken. And uh and I think if you benefit if you will allow the people in who have the blanket it will somehow balance out the people who seek to defile you. Tell me. We have been listening to my next chapter. Our next chapter. What about your next chapter? How are you navigating that chapter? And hopefully something that we said or did today in some way has helped you to navigate some sensitive situation relationship on the job in the home and the marriage and with the ex wife with the ex husband or just never get your own emotions. The one thing that's wonderful grace allows us to have a next chapter not everybody gets to have one. Somebody's book just closed. Yours has not. You have the pen. Write your next chapter. I'm TV Jakes and I'm ready to have an opportunity to be your host and to have my wonderful guests my daughter Sarah Jakes Groverick's. Hey everybody I want to take this time to thank you for watching the next chapter podcast. If this conversation inspired you, helped you reflect on an idea or spark something new inside of you make sure to like, comment and subscribe so you don't miss future episodes. Remember life isn't about how you begin. It's about how you finish strong so start your next chapter with us right here every week.