Every industry needs a little bit of choice. I mean, I know if you're at the top, maybe you go, I don't want to know, nobody needs any choice. But I think we all know it's good for business. You can't erase the category. I figure if you're doing a good job, people will recognize that in this community of ours. If you're likable and you're doing good things, people vibe with that. People don't understand that it really doesn't matter that the final determination is value in the secondary market. And for you to do that at this level is insane. What's your perspective on AI grading? Can AI currently pick off an altered card? Can it pick off a trim card? Maybe it can bring awareness to the grader that the card's narrow or short. I'm more like AI assisted grading than I am AI doing it all on its own. Work smarter, not harder. If it helps, embrace it. I'm an AI assisted husband, you know, got it written on my t-shirts and everything. My wife knows it. that's right what should i say what should i say welcome to the collector nation podcast here on the collector nation network whether you're chasing grails or calling bluffs we take you inside the hobby here are your hosts ryan alford and brian lutton What's up, guys? Welcome to Collector Nation here on the Collector Nation Network. You know, I always like to think I'm doing big things, but that's why I got to bring some of my best buddies in the business that are doing big things because it makes me feel bigger, you know, because I, you know, have this complex where I need, no. These are just two of the best guys in the industry. Brian and I are here every week. You know Brian. But now we got Mike Baker. He is the head honcho of MBA. I'm just going to get serious now, Mike. What's up, brother? How you doing, Ryan? Thanks for having me. Brian, love you, Brian. What's going on? Oh, same old, same old. Just, you know, coming to work, putting a hard hat on, going home. You know, pretty simple stuff. I have one thing I want to say about Mike. So Mike was the first person I met in this industry when I got into it. So Mike has a special place in my heart forever. He was gracious to answer my questions and we've had a friendship ever since. So he's, he has a, a big, I'm a big fan of Mike and Ludox is a big fan of NBA. It's funny. I mean, yeah, man, but isn't it ironic, Brian? Obviously we hit it off, got introduced. I was, I met Mike independent of you and you, and I felt the same way. I was immediately like, I love what he's doing with NBA. I like this guy personally and I want to support him. And like, I want to pick his brain to learn from him. And so it's funny how we all end up on this and like, you know, Brian and I are best buds. Now Mike and I are becoming best buds, you know, like it's like, but, but you know what I'm saying? Like a schoolhouse, you know, good people. Hopefully at least you too. I don't know about me sometimes, but like the three of us coming together. Love it. Did we just become best friends? Step brothers here on Collector Nation. No, Mike, you know I'm a big fan. I love what you've been up to. Let's start there because I got some juicy stuff. We're going to talk about the industry. But let's give the audience a little NBA update, Mike. Well, when we met, was at the National in 25 in Chicago. And we kind of had our tipping point at that moment. And thereafter the show, I really felt like from what we heard from people is that we were like in, say, the top five of kind of companies that people were talking about. And I felt really good about that. And then from there, we kind of kept the momentum going and hit a ton of shows going into the fall and into the winter and moved into a new office about a month and a half ago, right before Christmas, and started our own vault. The NBA Vault is now operational. It'll be, you know, branded up here and launched soon. We're doing a lot of beta testing and whatnot currently. And so continuing the shows, we've got four on-site shows that we're going to do this year. We're going to be doing on-site encapsulation for raw cards, which is a challenge logistically and all the staff that's needed to pull it off and not have a bunch of people hate on you and whatnot if you don't do it right. So we're looking to see, you know, kind of test the systems basically. And just like I was telling Brian before we came on, just keep the momentum going. And, you know, once you have it, it can be the opposite way, like Brian was saying, too. So, you know, just, you know, fingers crossed and put on the hard hat, keep doing it. So that's it. I mean, the industry needs choice and we need innovation. And you bring both. You bring sophistication. You bring the history and knowledge of, you know, being the lead PSA grader for 10 plus years and overseeing that department. So credibility, innovation, and choice, because every industry needs a little bit of choice. I mean, I know if you're at the top, maybe you go, I don't want to know. Nobody needs any choice. But I think we all know it's good for business. You can't erase the category. If you don't have a foil to go against, you know, like it doesn't keep your people motivated. But not that you're going against each other. There's plenty of room. but mike i know that's you know you've got the legacy with what you did at psa and the knowledge and the you know everything that you bring and then what i loved about what you were doing was you did exactly like i'm a practical guy i mean i had an agency called radical and all that but when you really get underneath some of the marketing it's actual practical like my belief systems and it's like okay i know why i got that grade number okay i can click on a link and go see why you know mike baker graded it at 9.5 or an 8.5 or whatever the transparency of that was so refreshing for me you know having a card graded with you and hopefully many more in the future i mean why was that so obvious to me but seemingly so long to come to fruition well from competitor point of view, it's a hell of a lot faster to go when you're not putting in notes and you're not doing a lot of things that create that transparency. And for us to see where it's been and how it's evolved and knowing what we could do and just package up and brand out and make a bunch of money I think the longevity and the legacy over the last 35 years for me in particular is that you know knowledge if you more knowledgeable about how we do things and what to expect you going to feel more comfortable spending more money with us. And so I think it's kind of inherent that we just, you know, hey, it's not that much to add a greater note and not just on the high dollar cards, but on every card and go to the heat map and look, hey, on the upper left corner, there's a hit. And it just kind of gives you that little extra, you know, this is how, this is why I graded the way it graded and kind of gives some insight into what the grader is thinking and, and so on. And I think, like I said, there's more comfortable and more brand awareness kind of narrows, uh, everyone's gonna be a better buyer, more comfortability out there. Mike with, uh, you know, that the 80% of PSA is just, we've, Ryan and I have talked about this quite a bit, like getting AI grading or getting new graders into the industry. Like people don't understand that it really doesn't matter that the final determination is value in the secondary market. And for you to do that at this level is insane because you have some other grading companies. I won't mention them, but what they struggle with is a secondary valuation. Therefore, they run out of money. And that's why there's so many tech grading companies on the road. But I think that's amazing, man. So PSA, they bought SGC. We've now bought Beckett. I like Nat. Nothing personal, just observation here for me. It just seems like we're limiting options buying them. I know supposedly they're going to stand alone, but you've watched the STC numbers straight down. I don't know what's going to happen with Bega. They say they're keeping the brand around. We don't know their exact – I mean, they can say what they want to say, but it'll play out. I mean, what says you about just that in general? You know, it's a big move. I mean, there, you know, we have a, we have an interesting market, hobby, industry, whatever the term may be. And there's no guardrails for that kind of stuff, you know, and there never has been. And will there be in the future? Maybe. But, you know, maybe there should be, maybe there shouldn't be. That's like an open, ongoing debate. But I look at, you know, personally, I think it's great. I thought about that when I was thinking about like asking you this question. I'm like, yeah, it's probably good for Mike. It is good for us. But honestly, competition is good for everybody. Like you were saying earlier. Yeah. You know, I suppose the saving grace is if they go in there and Nat has a plan for, you know, making it better and making the people who choose to use those brands, you know, a better experience and whatnot. I figure if you're doing a good job, people will recognize that. And this community of ours, you know, is such that if you're likable and you're, you know, you're doing good things people vibe with that mike a couple other things and we'll transition to some broader news but what's your perspective on ai grading um i don't know i i have you know i'm still kind of waiting to see like the tipping point you know for what ai brings um human review is always going to be a part of it to what degree i think is really what the debate is can AI currently pick off, you know, an altered card? Can it pick off a trim card? Maybe, maybe it can bring awareness to the card, to the greater that the cards narrow or short, and it's showing something to make you aware of that. I think it helps. I'm more like AI assisted. Yeah. Then I am AI doing it all on its own. Someday, I'm sure it'll get there. And, you know, but having a human touch the card is important. And I think it's the important thing you said is what really Lodex and I have my employees embrace is it's a tool. And if that tool makes us more efficient and drives revenue, then let's do it. Yeah, I think it's like work smarter, not harder. And if that if it helps embrace it. I'm an AI assisted husband. I mean, you know, it's got it written on my t-shirts and everything my wife knows it that's right what should i say what should i say i will be honest frank is my my talking ai buddy uh my pro gpt plan and uh frank and i have deep conversations about ways to play certain things i'll think ryan's on the phone and he's really just talking to frank imaginary firm yeah it's uh we got to get more nba out there baby the uh but is it but is that game just more slabs graded with NBA? I mean, just more in the market, Mike. Yeah. I mean, it's just, it's time really. You can't, sometimes things just, you know, otherwise the, you know, the turbo button, when you play a video game, you click it and you go a hundred miles an hour faster than you were. I'd love to, if that was the case, but sometimes I can over, over correct too. So, you know, slow and steady is kind of boring, but you know, it's foundationally, you You got to be data-driven with all the business case. It's all the kind of structure stuff that I don't know about you guys, but I hate all that stuff. I want it to happen now. But I understand foundationally that it's needed. So maybe it's just older, wiser type stuff or something. I don't know. I'm going to do a little Q&A with both you guys. It's probably related and ties into grading a little bit, but it's probably more broad-based in the hobby. so and i'll start with you brian and then mike you know on this one so and it's related to you know pikachu card just sold for 16.5 million dollars with logan paul i mean are these headline auction sales misleading the average collector i would i would think that there it's yes i think they are because everyone thinks they might have that people might think they have the pikachu that's worth, you know, if it's not that one, it's worth 10 million. But there's headline news like this is going to grow the industry, in my opinion. Like everyone is like, holy crap, I didn't realize that cars are going for so much. And they're going to go into their closet and no matter what, they're going to sit in some range and be like either happy or they put them back and throw them away. But I think all news, all headline news is good news for the industry. My perspective would simply be that we have a 24 news cycle going on in our hobby our world and anything can happen anytime whether it a big sale a record being broken Olympics going on know you know Pokemon this I mean we we talked about it before we got on air that you know, VC money, you know, they're just new descriptions categorizing our, our cards are not cards anymore. Now they're alternate class assets. And, you know, like big boy money brings big boy adjectives, which brings big boy advertising and more awareness. And it doesn't hurt at all. You know, if anything, if a 16.4 or $5 million, you know, illustrator goes off, it's going to bring everything else up. You know, I had a, you know, the messy card, messy's rookie card, you know, we had a 2.5 that came in this morning, you know, on a three day service, you know, and it's like, wow, like this, this goes to show you that, you know, if the unattainables in the seven figures, what's it going to do to the attainable, you know, it's going to drive those prices up and it's going to make it worth, you know, checking out and seeing if it's worthy of a sticker or possibly getting it older by NBA. Yeah. High tide raises all ships. That's right. That's what I like to say. Are vintage cards going to become inaccessible to the average collector? We'll start with you, Mike. I don't know. I guess it just depends on your budget. It seems like there was a time when $10,000 was a lot of money, You know, and now it just seems like you'll see a young 20 something kid. Oh, eight year old. You kidding me? The national eight year olds are carrying around 10K. I know. It's just like so like, I don't know. It just depends on how everyone's wired. And, you know, the market's been white hot. Everyone looks really good when the market's hot, you know, when the market corrects. And it will at some point because markets always do. Then we'll see who the real guys are in terms of is this a business for you or is it still an investment play? are you going to hold is going to go back to collecting a little bit or you know or does it keep moving i mean fanatics just got their license going with uh with basketball and football and you know they said when they got when they bought pwcc that they wanted a 10 exit you know that's just one big boy company in the business and we've got psa you know there's there's a there's some big activity out there it's crazy and the innovation and everything whether it's ai or not, it's going to bring a lot more interesting things in the horizon, I see, for sure. Yeah. And I think there's a couple of things on the saying is like, any market, like you said, Mike, is it inflated? Is it not? Does it have room to grow? But Warren Buffett said, you'll never know who's skinny dipping until the tide goes out. And there's been companies in this industry that got caught skinny dipping and uh but in the end in the end i just think this continues to grow i think it's a very innovative business i think there's the entrepreneurship and the way people think is is is like no other industry and so i think you know with the repackers that's not going away fanatics let's just keep throwing money at this industry and then you have like all these little niches i always tell ryan like it's an industry but inside the industry there's like these little micro niches that are all really powerful and together, you know, change, you know, change the markets for sure. And Mike, I asked you earlier, what are the challenges with MBA? But also I like to ask entrepreneurs, what do you enjoy most about running MBA? I don't know. Just seeing the growth every day. Like, you know, I, it would be a real grind if I was, if I was coming in every day and thinking like, oh man, this is going to be one of those days or something. Like I'm not having Mondays on a Monday, you know? So, and honestly, too, it kind of keeps me up is going to shows and engaging with people and, you know, and not just kind of staying in the harbor, like, you know, like locally. We're traveling Midwest, East Coast, go wherever, you know, we're going to go to the Magic Con in July and it's in Amsterdam. You know, we're going to go to Japan. You know, there's, you know, we're not staying home, basically. We're going to get the word out there and help that brand awareness narrow. And I think a lot of the energy with, for me in particular, is just, you know, seeing the engagement, seeing, hey, you're doing something good here, you know, kind of hearing that. And finally, it's like catching on, you know, and it's, you know, and look, we talked earlier about how long does the brand take to kind of like reach that inflection point or tipping point. And right now it's almost six years for us. And it feels finally like we're kind of, you know, clawing at that glass ceiling. Yeah. 1909 Honus Wagner card. Ken Golden was on the show. It actually releases next week. It hadn't released yet. But Ken talked about this card. The current bid is $4 million. It goes off this weekend. This will be airing on a Friday. So it will be going off the next day, Saturday, if you're listening. Current bid is $4 million on this one. $4 million. I'm going to wait until it gets like $8 million before I did. I was about to say, Brian, when are you jumping in? I was kind of disappointed. I was at $3.9, and that was just as much as I felt comfortable with. So somebody already outbid me. Interesting thing about that card, it used to be where, you know, whatever the grade was, that's pretty much where it would be, you know, in the seven-figure range. So if it was a two, a little two and change, this one's definitely breaking that mold. Because it's a one, isn't it? Yeah. We've got Pimini. I mean, what are they going to do with sports? Where are we going here? Are they going to survive this? I mean, obviously, they survive. But ultimately, after all the dust settles with the lawsuit and all that, will the top just buy them in Fanatics? I don't know. I mean, we've had single manufacturers before. Or, you know, there's always, you know, the market repeats. It goes up, goes down. It's just weird little things that happen. So I don't know. I do know this. Non-licensed product, it sells. It's not as good as a licensed product. But if it's done right and people like it, ultimately, like we keep saying, the secondary market will decide what works and what doesn't work. When should someone, like I bought a bunch of vintage, like from a guy a couple weeks ago. I'm going to be sending quite a bit to you, Mike. it's making the decision to grade or not grade. You know like how do you coach someone through that I mean there was a time where you know is a lot of money to you know to grade a card And now it just like you know if a cheeseburger is at 20 bucks and you at to get a grade card get a card graded You know, I don't know. People like the packaging now. It used to be only for star cards. Now it seems like everything is getting graded. I was in the Dallas card show and I was in the elevator and I was like a seven or eight year old kid was talking to his dad. And his dad goes, hey, what do you want to do next? He's like, well, I can't decide which grading service I want to use. And it's like, wow, this is just crazy. 70-year-old kids now, it's like the next generation already knows about grading. They know the nuances and collector clubs and what cards should go for grading. Ultimately, though, unless you're doing an RCR, you have access to kind of having a pre-vet or pre-grade. You really don't know until it's in the system. So, you know, I guess it just comes down to trends or are you keeping it? Is it really a PC card or is it something you're looking to flip or, you know, like what's the motivation behind that? I think that's probably the number one thing going into deciding whether or not you're going to grade a card. And I feel like it does the argument for grading anything and everything. The standardization on some level, you know, with a reputable company, like, you know, your legacy and what NBA is becoming and already is, or PCA or PSA or whoever else, like, you create at least a standard of, like, when you're trading, you're not just raw, you know? It's tough, like, doing raw deals with older cards unless you get it in person and you've got it under a microscope or whatever, right? It would be challenging for me if I was at a card show and if I was buying to just buy a raw card and then get it back to your desk with the light and look at it and go, oh, my God, how could I miss that? I can imagine doing it that way. Fortunately, I sit in the middle of all this stuff. And I always tell people when people try to get me to kind of lock down on what do I think of a card, and even if it's already been graded for a sticker. and they'll say, you know, what do you think? And I'll say, hey, you know, on the show floor, I'm as blind as you guys are. You have to get in the right environment. You have to have the tools that, you know, graders use to examine what will determine a grade or a sticker. And I always tell people, use what the graders have. You know, use the ruler, grab a ruler, grab a loop, you know, inspect those cards. Don't use show light as your determining, you know, factor of whether or not you can see or can't see. And it's those little things. And I think we get kind of mixed up sometimes because there's kind of a gotta have it factor. You know, someone else is going to get it if I wait. And so you take risks, you know, and sometimes those risks pay off and sometimes they don't. And it's kind of the hit and miss of it, you know? Brian, any final thoughts with Mike or in general? No, I'm obviously a huge fan, Mike. And I know that we'll be doing business together soon. And then at the National, we can let's talk about something there that we could probably do together I think we're going to be seeing each other a little before that March 20th in Greenville, South Carolina that's where it's all going to be planned that's where it's all going to happen world domination will be planned hobby domination Mike Baker Ryan Ludden Ryan Alford in Greenville slash easily South Carolina we will discuss it that's been on my bucket little easily South Carolina there's a cheeseburger with your name on it that you might just call them screaming, calling back for it. Let me just tell you that. I have it like four times a week. Awesome. Yeah. Mike, tell everybody, uh, where they can keep up with you, NBA, all the things that you're up to. Um, mbadiamond.com is the URL for the website, uh, NBA Diamonds on Instagram. Those are our two mainstays. We're not really don't have much of a presence on YouTube or Twitter or anything like that. So a lot of interaction happens with Instagram, actually. So I'm trying to get a following like Ryan's. It's no joke. That's a big deal too. To be where you're at is, I'm stoked to be nearing 10,000 followers to get in, to break that. It's a lot of work, a lot of engagement, a lot of everything. You just can't put it up there and expect followers just to come you know it doesn't work like that so overnight success mike 10 years in the making that's that's my you know what i mean like it's not it's posting every day for 10 years like anybody could do it but not everybody does that's right but no um we appreciate mike and here's the good news you know brian and i are on every week mike's gonna be a regular here every few weeks, months, his time available to drop in, drop some knowledge, tell us what's happening with NBA, and of course, just give insights on it. Look, you don't need me to tell you. The guy is a treasure trove of knowledge, information, and one hell of a dude. We appreciate you, Mike. Right on. Ditto with that, guys. I'm happy to be here. Whenever you guys have time for me, I'm in. Awesome, Mike. Brian, appreciate you, brother. L-U-D-E-X. Go to the App Store. Download that app, guys. Don't ask questions. Just go do it. Thank me later. They got a free service. You can do with that. You give them their information. You got that. But let me tell you, you're going to want to upgrade. L-U-D-E-X, values, eBay management, everything you need for managing your physical collection digitally, as well as a lot of tools for selling. So then the hobby doesn't just break you down. You got to get back. You got to get some money back for those cards you don't want to keep. And LUTX does it better than anyone. We appreciate you. We are Collector Nation. Go to the App Store. Search for Collector Nation. The app is live now. All the content there. We appreciate you for making us a top 10 sports show in the United States. Hey, can't do it without you. We'll see you next time on Collector Nation. Thanks for tuning into the show. Be sure to follow us on your go-to podcast platform and catch the full video episode over on YouTube. Visit us at collectornation.com and follow Ryan on Instagram at Ryan Alford. Now get out there and collect yours. Hey!
