Trump accuses the BBC of using AI on him (And the editing technique changing TV forever)

Were you shocked the football focus was axed? I hadn't even noticed it was on.

0:00

Obviously. This is complete and absolute nonsense.

0:03

Yeah.

0:07

She doesn't say, well, actually, Mr. President, they didn't use AI. She says in a rather simpering voice, I hear you, Mr. President.

0:08

Oh, don't worry. I'm gonna phone the writer tonight to say, stick a bag of cocaine in on page three. And the BBC will lap it up. Hello and welcome to Insiders, the podcast all about the world of television, with

0:16

me, Jimmy Mulville, and me, Peter Fincham.

0:33

This is the podcast for people who love TV and want to know a bit more about what goes on behind the scenes. So, Peter, what have you been up to this week?

0:35

Well, we've been. I've just been continuing to live.

0:43

I can see that. I can see that.

0:47

I mean, that is actually a quote, by the way.

0:50

What'd you say?

0:53

Do you want to know what that was a quote from?

0:53

Yeah.

0:54

You know Simon and Garfunkel? Paul Simon.

0:55

Yeah, I've heard of them.

0:57

Paul Simon. There's a live album called Live Rhyme, right? And between two songs, he's tuning up on. Somebody from the back of the audience says, say a few words. And Paul Simon says, well, let's hope we continue to live. And the audience. And the audience laughs and there's a huge round of applause. It's not the wittiest response. Isn't it? So I was unconsciously quoting that Paul Simon.

0:58

Yeah.

1:22

Witticism.

1:23

He's a great songwriter.

1:24

He's a great songwriter. Obviously not.

1:25

Not someone to get stuck in an elevator with, but, you know, you'll be

1:26

able to see over the top of him because he's a very short man.

1:30

Don't be sure.

1:32

You know, the story about him and Douglas Adams. We're going way off piece.

1:33

That's all right.

1:36

We're going.

1:37

Well, we don't have a piece.

1:37

We haven't even got onto the piece and we've gone off it. Douglas Adams, very tall, great novelist, a great fan of Paul Simon, could play his songs, all the really kind of picking guitar. He was a very good musician. Douglas. Paul. Paul, as I call him, as if I know him. Yeah. Was playing.

1:39

I'd call him Simon.

1:57

He was playing Wembley arena or something like that.

2:00

Yeah.

2:02

And Douglas has organized to meet him backstage afterwards.

2:02

This is Post, his Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

2:06

Oh, this is when Douglas is a very, very famous novelist and Paul's a very famous songwriter. You know, famous people kind of.

2:08

Yeah. You know, just being Famous together.

2:14

Being famous together. So Douglas goes back to the stage door after a gig and he waits and then this guy comes in to say, oh, you're here to meet Paul. And he takes a look at Douglas.

2:16

Where's the guy from?

2:27

He's American.

2:29

Okay.

2:30

Takes a look at Douglas, disappears for five minutes and says, I'm afraid Paul cannot meet you.

2:30

Wow.

2:37

Too tall. Paul would not be in the presence

2:37

because Douglas was 6 foot 4.

2:41

6 foot 4. And Paul Simon appears in one of those Woody Allen films. Is Annie hall or Manhattan or something like that. He makes Woody Allen seem tall. He's that short. Now, I know this isn't about television, but in a sense, we're fulfilling our brief to say a bit more about what goes on behind the scenes.

2:43

Well, I.

2:58

Show business. That's the way the world works.

2:58

I saw Simon and Garfunkel as a paying member of the audience.

3:00

Next month, by the way, he's back on the road.

3:03

Yeah, I saw them in the 80s, in the early 80s, at Wembley, and it was brilliant, absolutely brilliant. Except for one moment where our Garfunkel walked towards the front of the stage and took the microphone and Paul Simon sat at the back on a stool and our Garfunkel said in his rather pipey voice, I'd like to sing a song now, which is very important to me. It was a song which was made famous by a film, Watership down, and the sound of 100,000 people going for a drink.

3:05

Yeah, yeah. Why are we going to listen to this? Well, you didn't even write it. Do you know who wrote Bright Eyes?

3:33

No.

3:41

Mike Bat.

3:42

I think I knew that. Yes, I did.

3:44

Sorry. We're laughing because we've disappeared down a rabbit hole that will literally.

3:48

A rabbit hole.

3:54

It's.

3:55

It's forced ship. It's water shipped down. You've picked the perfect metaphor, Peter. For the first time in 55 podcasts, you've actually picked the perfect metaphor.

3:56

No, it's true. Mike Batt, who. Who wrote, you know, the Wombling song and Remember a Womble?

4:07

Yeah, I love that song.

4:12

How many more wumbling songs?

4:13

I think I want that played at my funeral. Anyway, I went to a thing last night, which I normally avoid.

4:14

We're going back to television now.

4:21

I went, yes, and we're back on television. I went to channel four. Not that I normally avoid going to channel four. I was there till 10 o' clock at night. I wasn't rifling through Ian Kat's desk.

4:23

You weren't pitching programs before. Before the current Regime leaves hoping you could get them under the wire.

4:33

No, I was at a charity quiz night. Now, I'll be honest with you, I normally avoid charity dues. I'd rather just give them the money than go. Cause it's like five hours of your life you don't get back.

4:39

Particularly if there's an auction.

4:51

Oh, well, there wasn't. You know, what's great about this and there are other things that are great about it and why I made an exception. But what was great was there was no auction. There was no auction at the end. The auctions where you win a voucher to have your child captured in watercolor by local artists.

4:53

And you never got a draw full of them. You never follow it up. Or you buy, as I once did, a pair of Wellington boots signed by Alan Titchmarsh.

5:07

I'm sorry to hear that.

5:18

I paid £500 for these Wellington boots. I can't remember what the charity was. And then I offered another 50 quid for Alan not to sign them. You think I'm walking through my village in Suffolk with Alan Titchmarsh's signature on the side of my Wellington boots. Joking. So he agreed not to sign them and I chucked in another 50 quid. Honor was satisfied by that.

5:19

Yes. So it was actually in aid of the Andy Taylor Foundation. And the reason why I'm very attached to this is that Andy Taylor was a man who, in the. Oh, 20 years ago, he was a working class lad from Rochdale. He got himself into television and then he set up a digital studio and he worked on the digital side of the business, which was before it was even a thing. I mean, YouTube was in its infancy. And in 2013, I think he set up a company called Little Dot.

5:46

And Little Dot, he disconnected to channel four, then. Did he work at channel four?

6:18

Yes, I think there are connections there. And I think that Channel 4 donated the room. You know that nice kind of cafe area when you walk in. Well, they kind of inhabited that. It was a very jolly evening where

6:22

you wait for your meeting.

6:34

Yeah.

6:35

And spent a lot of time in it.

6:36

Yeah. Andy Taylor sadly died very early of a brain tumor, and his wife Lara set up the Andy Taylor Foundation. And basically they go around the country and they engage with young people and try and help them to get into the industry. In Liverpool, they're taking, I think, a dozen young people between 18 to 22, and they're called this part of a group called NEET, which is not in education, employment or training. And this is a growing problem in the country, of course, is that young people leave school or college, they can't get an entry level job and then they languish and they kind of wither on the vine. So it's capturing these talented young people and giving them skills and then finding them placements and companies like Lime Pictures in Liverpool.

6:37

Another all three media companies.

7:23

Another all three media company and they are going to help out with some placements and other companies are getting involved. So little dot, I looked up little dot it's now it gets, you know, it gets 9 billion views a month. It's tough.

7:24

Wow.

7:39

And it's owned by All3Media. It's a very successful company. And we used to give our catalog to Little Dot and they would reskin it and put it on social media and, you know, we'd make a profit out of it. And now we do that through our own company, strongwatch. But what was funny was that they, they had a round where they put the editor's digital barcode of a film up on the screen. So it had. Has, you know, when you look at their screens, they have these different colors. You have to guess which film it was.

7:39

Oh, my God.

8:10

It was fucking impossible.

8:11

Yeah, that would be. That would be literally.

8:13

And then we had to build.

8:15

That'd be like saying, have a look at a QR code. Guess what, you're gonna connect from it.

8:17

I tell you what, I had a

8:21

really game I do play at home occasionally.

8:23

Yeah, it's a sad life you lead. I've never come. If ever you invite me around for a QR Code evening, I'm not coming. But you know, there was one moment where they said, now is a bit of our physical round. We're gonna ask you to build a tower out of a roll of tinfoil.

8:25

Right.

8:42

So what was interesting, these very.

8:42

It sounds a bit Blue Peter.

8:43

You can imagine how competitive it is.

8:45

Yes.

8:47

Right. So Alan Sugar was there, by the way, and we completely it up. We. My tower, how can I put it was flaccid.

8:47

Right.

8:56

It kept bending over.

8:57

Yes.

8:58

So much hilarity. And we couldn't get it off the ground. The table opposite us.

8:59

You're gonna tell me Alan Sugar is an expert in building tinfoil towers?

9:03

No, I don't think he got involved. I think he was more executive. But there was one guy who was building the most massive tower and it looked like they were going to win. And he was taking it so seriously. And he's getting more and more foil. We were all thinking, he's actually getting foil. He's getting A secret supply of foil. So we're getting a bit of foil envy. And then they said, now can you please take your hands off the towers. And his tower completely collapsed and everybody applauded. The schadenfreude was fantastic.

9:06

I can tell you that I was working with Alan Sugar on the Apprentice or we were making a torback. I can't remember if it was then or whether it was at BBC when. When he was Sir Alan Sugar and then he became Lord. And I said, so when he. Is it very easy when it was called Surrounding Sugar was easy. Just call him Sir Alan because he liked being called Sir Alan. Sir Alan. Sir Alan, yeah. When he became Lord Sugar, I couldn't work out what to call him. So I said, what do I call you now? He said, you can call me Al. Oh, exactly. We've. We've circled back to Paul Simon. And I thought. I thought for a nanosecond you can call me Betty. Exactly. I thought for a nanosecond. I'll tell you about a story about that in a minute as well. I thought for a nanosecond he was making a knowing reference to the.

9:36

No.

10:18

But then I realized absolutely not at all.

10:18

He said, in an irony free zone.

10:21

Okay, so the story. Do you know the story about. You can call me Al behind the song?

10:23

No.

10:27

Okay, so in the early 60s. Yeah. When he's just becoming famous.

10:27

Paul Simon.

10:31

Paul Simon.

10:32

Not Alan Sugar.

10:32

Not Alan Sugar. Paul Simon is invited to a party by Leonard Bernstein, the great west side Story conductor, a composer, west side Story, etc.

10:33

Yeah.

10:42

So big thing for little. Little Paul Simon established quite little. And he turns up with his. With his wife at the time who's called Peggy.

10:42

How tall she.

10:50

No, I beg your pardon? She can't come. She's not feeling well. I don't know how tall she was. That's not the point of the story. So he stays for a while, being a bit nervous and all these posh people. Then he leaves and Lennon Bernstein sees him out and Leonard says to him, thanks so much for coming, Al, and do give my love to Betty. But he's called Paul and his wife's called Peggy.

10:52

Wow.

11:13

So the point of this story is that that rankles with him over 20 years until he makes the Graceland album in the mid-80s when he turns into brilliant song.

11:13

Never piss off a short guy. That's the moral from.

11:25

Is any of this gonna make the edit?

11:30

I don't.

11:32

Well, anyway, go back to go back. That sounds like an extremely worthwhile evening.

11:33

It's A brilliant. It's a brilliant charity. Lara Taylor's done a fantastic job of pulling this all together and we helped out by the Liverpool Film Office. So that's why I went.

11:37

Otherwise, always good, Always good to go to Channel four and feel that was time well spent.

11:45

Yeah.

11:49

In my experience it's a rare occasion. One in ten.

11:50

Yeah. And no, you're absolutely right. The best charity evening I was invited to was in America. It's called the no Show Ball and what you do is you buy a table and you don't turn up.

11:52

Right.

12:08

Everybody pays.

12:08

So if everybody doesn't turn up, they don't even have to have the ball at all.

12:09

Exactly. So they make a small fortune. People going, I stay home, watch 10 and the invitation is I will be delighted not to be at the no Show Ball on April 30th.

12:12

Yeah.

12:23

I mean isn't that great? Yeah, that's what I do. Anyway, you've had a bit of good news this week.

12:23

Yeah, not me personally, but expectation. Yeah. We've won a tender which is always satisfying thing to do and we're making a pilot for BBC and NBC or NBCU as they're now.

12:27

It's a big, a big, a big game reality show.

12:38

It is, it is that and it's a pilot so it's a big opportunity.

12:42

Don't tell me the format because I'll probably steal it.

12:46

Yeah. It's an interesting question that all production comes to think about from time to time. Is it a good idea to get involved in competitive tenders? I used to feel a bit, you know, back when I was running, talk about rather kind of anti that and feel in a rather snobbish way, oh, we'll come up with our own ideas and, and just, you know, take the broadcasters and banana desperate commissions. But no, the world has changed in lots of ways and I mean the truth of the matter is with a competitive tender it's nice if you win, isn't it?

12:48

Brilliant if you win. But all kinds of reasons actually I,

13:16

I also think there's an issue there for broadcasters. If they are putting out a brief for a competitive tender, how many people should they should put that out to? Because in a way the more companies you put the tender out to, the more companies have the opportunity to win it obviously. But since there will only be one winner, it means an awful lot of people are making a lot of effort that really doesn't go anywhere in the end. And I don't know what the answer to that is. Should you go to your favorite three companies and say, you know, one of three will win, or should you go to eight or 10? Do you do it? Do you do it at Hat Trick? We.

13:19

We have done it. I mean, we. Obviously, we've got Mastermind.

13:54

Yes.

13:58

And.

13:58

Oh, but that's slightly different because that's an existing program that you're. Yes, you're saying, but we. We're not going to wreck the program. We'll keep doing the program. Well, but you're really pitching yourself as a.

13:59

But it's a competitive thing.

14:08

Service company in a way. I mean, don't mean that.

14:10

Absolutely. No, no, no.

14:12

Saying we'll deliver it on time, on budget, and all that kind of stuff

14:13

we once were involved in. Oh, a couple of years ago, the BBC entertainment department put out this tender for a daytime quiz pilot, and the world and his mother entered. And it took a year to go through the process where they kept whittling it down. It was like its own game show. So basically, they start off with I don't know how many companies, and it whittles down to 12. And they give those 12 companies, which we were included, a bit of money to do an office pilot. And then of those office pilots, they whittled down to three. Need a bit more. And then you whittle. And I thought, actually, is this about job creation for people who work at the BBC? Because it clearly is a waste of time for most production companies to get involved in that.

14:17

And you can see that, you know, I have seen this happen for the commissioner, that the commissioner has an unusual level of power here because eight or 10 companies are trying to win their, you know, win their favor and get their attention. But as you say, mostly the unsuccessful pitches will go nowhere. I mean, it's not impossible that you've, you know, you've done all that work on the tender, and then when you're not the one who wins it, you can take it off another broadcaster and sell it. But kind of the odds are against if it's. If it's to a specific brief. So I think I'm kind of neutral. And this will be very nice for us, an expectation that we've won.

14:54

And for Ben Wicks.

15:31

Who are. Ben. Ben Wicks, your head of. My colleague who spearheaded this with. With also with Dave Flynn, who he.

15:32

I think part of remarkable at the end, the Endermeal empire.

15:41

Absolutely. So it's a great. Great for them and very exciting for us.

15:46

Congratulations.

15:49

But I kind of think on the whole business, I think if it's a production company, you Spent your whole time in competitive tenders. It could be a slightly soul destroying thing but.

15:50

Well, as opposed to pitching ideas and having them turned down.

15:58

Well, wait, waiting in the area of, in that, in that cafe area at Channel 4.

16:01

Can I ask you a question?

16:07

Yeah.

16:08

If I said to you there was a new, new drama went out on the BBC called the Cage.

16:08

Well, I've seen a bit of it. I've seen an episode and.

16:14

Yeah, it's set in Liverpool.

16:16

Yes.

16:18

What would you say it was about?

16:20

Well, it, I, I know you're going to object to. It's about criminality but it's not your ordinary criminal. It's not like that thing the City is Ours which I actually thought was a very good, very good show made by Left bank which is a gangster show setting and the responder with Martin. But the Cage is written by the. The same guy as a responder.

16:22

Yes.

16:43

Yeah, but it's about a couple of people who work in a casino and stuff.

16:43

Brilliant. Sheridan Smith.

16:48

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

16:49

She's. I'd watch anything with her.

16:50

Yeah, so. So I think I've watched an episode I thought was really good actually. But is the point you're making that you don't see dramas about happy law abiding people?

16:52

I want to see. Well, I'm beginning to build a picture of the BBC drama's view of what?

17:03

So you should develop a drama about people in Liverpool who, who are law abiding smiley sitters like most people in Liverpool. Exactly, exactly. And then get it turned down.

17:10

Well, no, and then I thought what

17:21

I do is confirm your view that if it's got Liverpool in it, it needs some criminality.

17:22

Well, the most identifying factor in the three dramas of responder City is ours and Le Cage by the way, all really good dramas.

17:28

Is it they're about criminals.

17:36

No, they've all got a bag of cocaine in them. Okay, so I've got a, I've got a pitch for a, a rom com between two middle aged people in Liverpool and I can't sell it. I think the mistake is they don't do coke. It hasn't. They haven't got about a bag of cocaine so I'm easy to fix.

17:38

Jim.

17:55

Oh, don't worry. I'm going to phone the writer tonight to say stick a bag of cocaine in on page three and the BBC will lap it up because they think Liverpool coke dealers. Let's do it. For goodness sake. BBC drama. Wake up and smell the coffee. Anyway, were you shocked the football Focus was axed after 52 years I hadn't even noticed it was on.

17:55

It's one, I'll put that in that category of the person you once knew, who you've, as it were, almost forgotten their existence. And you're only reminded of your existence when you hear from a friend that very sadly they've died.

18:20

Yeah.

18:34

Oh my God. Were they still alive? So the Football Focus to me is the television equivalent of that.

18:35

Yeah.

18:42

And I saw an interview in one of the newspapers with Bob Wilson and he did the same interview that we talked about this a few weeks ago that David Dimbleby did when they decided to slim down the live events team, which is basically, this is the Ravens leaving the Tower of London. Terrible. The end of all civilization.

18:42

What are they doing to my baby?

19:02

Tragedy. And I'm afraid, even though I've never met him, but I understand Bob Wilson's a very nice man. I'd say to him, no, Bob, this is television. This is what happens. And the way we watch football changes all the time. Apart from anything else, the BBC's ownership of football has been progressively loosened, dwindled, dwindled over many years. Sky with TNT with Amazon Prime. By the way, last night's match, I know recording this on a Wednesday between Bayern Munich and psg, that last night was on Amazon Prime.

19:03

It was.

19:40

So nowadays we've talked about this in relation to HBO. Max. Nowadays you think at 8 o' clock, you think I'm going to watch that football match. It's 8:15 before you can find it.

19:41

Yeah.

19:50

Because there's so many different channels it can be on. So therefore the BBC doesn't have any, doesn't have the same ownership. The way, the way we watch television has changed. I mean, after all, Match the day is still there. But Football Focus, if no one was somebody, somebody somewhere in the BBC would have said, this is out of time.

19:50

We probably talked about it more than anybody else.

20:09

Well, I mean to, to be fair, I, I always say this about long running programs. The, the longer running they are, the sadder it is when they come to an end. But the longer running they are, the more successful they've been by running for that length of time. In other words, if you'd canceled Football Focus after one season, nobody would have shed tears. No, it runs for 52 years, so it feels like an event. But if you'd said to the people behind it in that first season, you're going to run for half a century, they just said, we're happy with that.

20:12

And I've heard that we'll take that The BBC sports.

20:44

When the BBC eventually drop. Have I got news for you.

20:47

Thank you.

20:50

I'm just.

20:51

My. My bowels have just turned to water.

20:52

It will be a sad moment, Jim. It will. And the people will write articles about it and all that kind of stuff. But I remember when it started. Yeah, it was very dodgy start. And you running? Actually, I was running Talk Back but you had Angus Deaton hosting. It was my client and so on. So I had a kind of tangential involvement.

20:55

You did.

21:12

How many years it run for now?

21:13

Well, it's run for 36 years.

21:15

36 years. You would have taken a 36 year run, wouldn't you?

21:16

Yes, I would.

21:20

Yeah. But now it's run for 36 years. You want it to run for another.

21:21

It's like when people say another 36 years. It's like if you say who wants to go till 90? So we'll talk to an 89 year old. We got a letter from somebody. Do you want to hear the letter?

21:24

Yeah, go on. It's an email from Nigel Williams.

21:40

Nigel Williams, for people who don't know Nigel Williams.

21:43

This is Nigel Williams.

21:45

Nigel Williams, this is the great editor Nigel Williams. Not the writer. Nigel Williams.

21:46

Not the writer Nigel Williams, who is the father. Father of Jack and Harry Williams who are two brothers who are brilliant and prolific drama writers. No, but another Nigel Williams who's an editor. Okay.

21:51

Who is.

22:00

I'm glad we cleared that up.

22:01

As good an editor as Nigel Williams was, as a father of two brilliant

22:02

writers and a writer himself.

22:06

And a writer himself. I actually worked with him once.

22:07

Yeah. Very nice man.

22:09

On a very unsuccessful.

22:10

I actually sat opposite him in the tube only a couple of months ago.

22:11

Are we having competitive Nigel Williams tub trumps?

22:14

I'm confident that you won't be able to say you've seen one of the tubes.

22:16

I want to show him.

22:18

You never. You never go on the tube.

22:19

I do. I've got. Oh, by the way, I actually. I've broken through my denial. I got my freedom pass.

22:22

Have you?

22:28

And I'm using it now liberally. I love it.

22:29

Do you get that urge to.

22:33

I go on YouTube even when I

22:34

go to ault and back just to see what anald is like.

22:35

Cock fosters. All right, so Nigel Williams, who's a fantastic editor.

22:38

Yes. He got in touch.

22:43

He's one of those editors where

22:44

you

22:48

give him the show to kind of. You just say, oh, just bring it down to time. And then you think, well, I'll get to work on it. And you turn up and his Choices are usually impeccable. He's an artist, he's a brilliant editor. And he sent us this rather provocative email. Can I read it to you?

22:48

Yeah, please, go ahead.

23:03

Cause I want to hear what you got to say about this. I was very encouraged by your views on AI as a tool to support rather than dominate program makers. I recently used an AI tool that eliminated the need to cut away, to place ADR on the back of actors heads to clarify plot points or make jokes funnier. You know that technique where you say, look, we'll just get him in to do a bit of ADR and that will make sense of it. The AI software allowed the new recorded audio performed by the original actor to be synced onto the face of the performer and from the nose down allowed the mouth to mimic the new dialogue. This included a very funny punchline that punctuated the end of the scene. After showing the production, they were blown away by how good it was, but horrified that I'd used AI to embellish the scene. We ended up editing the line in the traditional way, but by cutting away to another actor, losing all the impact of the newly written dialogue. This is a classic example, Nigel adds, of AI being used purely as a tool to enhance the show. But production freaked out as soon as the word AI entered the conversation and banned it.

23:05

Well, there you go. So this is what we were discussing when we were discussing AI. I'm really glad Nigel's, you know, written to us about this because it's almost like a perfect example. Is it a good thing is a bad thing? So you know, to, to go over what you just said. We've all been in edits where you think, oh God, we haven't quite landed that plot point in that scene or that joke hasn't quite landed or whatever. But it's fine because if we go into the character who's listening and we've got the back of the head of the character who's speaking, we can record some adr, which is a perfectly normal thing to do. Get the actors in during post production adr, additional dialogue, additional dialog required adr. And what Nigel was saying there about putting in a funny line, generally speaking, a funny line isn't as funny if you're looking at the back of somebody's head. So it's not a perfect way of delivering a joke, but it might be okay. Delivering, delivering a plot point in a. Clarifying something about the end of a scene or whatever. So now he's talking about AI being used when you're on the face of the character. But what you're doing digitally is making the lips move to say this funny line or plot point. Exactly. You might say, amazing. Or you might say, what. What's going on here? This is the beginning of the end. Because this is AI taking over the process now. I think we are. We're kind of on the same page here, which is resist this at your peril. You know, all filmmaking is artificial in one way or other. Yeah, the ADR is artificial.

24:25

Yeah.

25:53

You know, when you're doing adr, you're cheating. Because one of the most common words is. In an edit is cheat. We say, how can we cheat that? How can we give the. We cut from an exterior of one building to an interior in a studio that we filmed two months later? We are cheating by lulling the audience into thinking it's the same place in the same day. So why do we draw the line at AI? Is it that AI has a, oh, I don't know, sinister quality to the idea of it that we're all very worried about? I can't help thinking, you know, like all technical innovation that helps you make a program, it's going to win. It's going to win in the end. But this particular instance, the. The actor's lips moving. I mean, it's interesting that what Nigel talks about is production freaking out. How does the actor feel? How does the actor feel? The actor will cheerfully come in and do a session of adr. Perfectly normal. When you say, we've actually digitally made your lips move to a line that you never said. I'd be interested to know how many actors would say, I don't want you to do that. Does it start to feel a bit like deep fake? And deep fake has a very pejorative feel to it when you say, this is a deep fake thing. But people think it's wrong. It's either morally wrong or it needs to be made clear to the audience that these techniques have, you know, that you've cheated in some way. Again, back to that word cheat. I'd be very interested to see how this develops in 5 years time. Will this be normal or. Or will a mixture of squeamishness among production people and resistance from actors and their agents mean it, it doesn't happen again.

25:53

Well, I think that's a very good analysis of the. Is the kind of. It's not black and white, is it? At what point do you say, no, no, no, that's actually going to impinge on the human element. But what you've got here is a human editor, Nigel, who's using his ingenuity to be creative, to get the best,

27:34

and he's pro ed. Yes.

27:52

This is what he does. He's saying, but this makes my job better. I can offer you a better solution to the problem you've got by using this technique. So in the same way that editing itself is a cheat, I mean, in the old days it was live television and that was it. And then editing came along and you could manipulate the images in a more sophisticated way. I think the. I don't know the details of the show, but if the productions come at it from the point of view as, oh, this is a hot button topic and we can't get involved with AI because we're frightened of it, then I think we need more education.

27:53

Well, I do.

28:28

We need more people to be educated about what AI can do and what it should do and shouldn't do.

28:29

But I'd love to hear from anybody listening to this who feels strongly the opposite of what Nigel Williams is saying and what, in a way, we're, we're sympathizing with. I'd love to hear articulated the argument that says we shouldn't allow AI into the production.

28:33

I'd like to know how, how much actors enjoy doing adr. I don't think it's an entirely enjoyable process for an actor.

28:49

Well, I think it's a bit of a chore for an actor coming in after they've got to get back into character. You've got to kind of match the timbre of your voice, you know, so it can be a little bit tedious before you get the take that you think this is a good match, and so on. So again, if you said to an actor at the end of a shoot, thank you very much, don't worry if we need some extra lines, we'll, we'll do it all digitally. Would an act to say, well, that's a relief because I'm moving on to another show, or would they feel threatened? Or maybe a mixture of each. But I think, I don't think we can be definitive about this. But I'd love to hear different views about it. But let's, let's move on to, we've got another AI story. And I think this is a, this is a very interesting one in a completely different way. Donald Trump, President Trump did an interview on Sunday night. I'm going to read what he said verbatim.

28:56

Please don't do an impersonation.

29:46

I'm not an impersonation, but he's talking about the issue we talked about before, which is still rumbling along, about the BBC and the fake edit in the Panorama about January, for which he's suing

29:47

BBC, which is BBC.

29:59

So this is, this is what he says. I've also won a lot of money from fake news media where they write falsely about me. And you know when they say, can we all get along? You can. But when people do things like that where, I mean, how about the BBC? When the BBC has me actually AI, they had me saying a horrible statement and I said, I never said that. It turned out they gave me an AI, a little AI treatment where they had my lips speaking words of hate, tremendous hate, than I never said. They don't know what to do. They've admitted they're wrong. They just don't know what to do. They actually had me making a major statement and it wasn't me, it was my face, it was my lips. My lips were perfectly in sync with the words. I said, I can't believe it. I can't believe it. So, so Trump said this in an interview with CBS correspondent Nora O', Donnell. And it's up there on YouTube. So.

30:00

And that was after the assassination attempt.

30:53

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'd recommend you to. On YouTube because to me, one of the most shocking things at the end of this nonsense is what Nora O' Donnell says. She doesn't say, well, actually, Mr. President, they didn't use AI. That's not the issue at all. She says in a rather simpering voice, I hear you, Mr. President. It's not exactly Jeremy Paxman, is it?

30:55

Well, we know why CBS is like that because they have been. They are owned by the Ellison.

31:18

I don't, don't worry, I get all that. In other words, you know, Nora Donald's defense would be to say if I was too challenging. Yes to the. We wouldn't get another interview.

31:22

And also you can't fact check him while you're interviewing him because you wouldn't get anywhere.

31:31

This is what happens when, you know, democratic norms are eroded and, and the freedom of the press is under attack. It becomes more difficult to, to do the job that journalists are supposed to do. But she doesn't challenge him. But obviously this is complete and absolute nonsense.

31:34

Yeah.

31:51

And he said it. And I'd be interested to know what percentage of people will think it's true just because he said it and he goes unchallenged in saying it.

31:52

Well, I think he's probably done his case some harm because I would imagine the BBC lawyers would take this statement and use it in their defense, saying, there's been a lack of understanding actually what the offense is, because they. What they did, as you know, is they bungled an edit. They edited together two parts of the speech which weren't contiguous. They were actually separated and put them together, and it looked more incendiary than it actually was. Although the speech itself was quite incendiary. If he just left it.

32:03

He absolutely said the words. That's the point.

32:32

He said the words. AI was not involved. It was an editor.

32:34

No, the BBC. I mean, there were people within BBC News who said, oh, this is normal editing. But I think their voices got drowned out by more sensible voices saying, this wasn't normal editing. This was an edit you shouldn't have done. He did misrepresent his speech. But the point about this and the point about this interview with Trump on CBS is it did not involve AI at all.

32:37

No.

32:59

So it makes you wonder, has he been misinformed? Has he just made it up? Does he not understand the difference between AI and editing? But, you know, depressingly, it goes unchallenged on air. I hear you, Mr. President.

32:59

Well, he is. He's many things. He's got many defects of character. His most glaring is his stupidity. So when he's briefed by his very experienced military chiefs and he's told we should call it an incursion into Iran, he comes out to the press and says, we're having an excursion to Iran. So as opposed to a violent invasion, which is what an incursion is, it's an excursion, which is like a kind of brief holiday.

33:15

It's not even an incursion because an incursion means you actually go into somewhere. They actually haven't gone into Iran at

33:44

all, dropping things on it. And then when he posted that amazing meme of him as Jesus Christ healing what looks like a young Jeffrey Epstein on the bed, which is a bizarre choice.

33:49

Well, he did need. He did need some help.

34:02

He then came out and said, no, no, I'm supposed to be a doctor. And the story is, according to Michael Wolff, I think, who has written four books about Trump and has got people on the inside of the White House. He said the briefing was when they all sat down and thought, how the hell do we get him out of this hole he's dug him in, Picture himself as Jesus Christ around the Easter holidays. They said, Mr. President, just say the image was doctored.

34:04

And so he says he thought he was a doctor.

34:34

So he said, I thought he was a doctor. So he's. Let's face it, you're a fucking idiot.

34:35

Well, look, we've got one other story so we. We could maybe quickly cover because this goes in the opposite here. Here we are talking about technology and AI sweeping into the industry and doing things that real human beings once did. But this is the opposite. So this is the story that A League Of Their Own, the show made by cpl. Brilliant show we've been running.

34:41

Sports quiz.

35:02

Sports quiz.

35:03

I think it's all Over.

35:04

Yeah. Some would say a bit of a descendant of. They think it's all over.

35:05

So you used to make.

35:08

Yes, it's sort of like if you. If you like if. If they think it's all over. Was Bill Haley and the Comets A League of Their Own is Elvis Presley not Paul Simon. That's a really bad analog. Doesn't even begin to stand up. But League of Their Own has been running for years on Sky. Very successful, been cancelled. Which of course is, you know, sad thing. A sad thing for.

35:09

Why was it cancelled? Do you think the entertainment department was funneling the money into SNL? Because SNL is costing 2 million an episode. Maybe.

35:34

I mean, I think they've also canceled. Never mind the Buzzcocks. I think. I think they've had. What's that chilling thing? A strategic review and deciding panel shows or their descendants.

35:43

On away day.

35:52

They may have been on an away day. Anyway, listen, I love Sky. They're brilliant people. So do you. Let's not criticize Sky.

35:53

You've got a showing with them.

36:00

A good couple. Yeah, but this is interesting. The council, League of Their Own. So what they're going to do, they're going to take it on the road. They've announced a tour of A League of Their Own. An arena tour. Wow, that's big venues. Yeah, I mean arenas, thousands, eight, ten thousand people. They're going to do shows in Liverpool, your hometown. Lots of bags of cocaine. Oh, well, it'll be maybe a few guns.

36:01

It'll probably be in the cocaine arena.

36:29

On cocaine road shows in Liverpool, Manchester, London, Newcastle, Birmingham, Glasgow, starting in September. According to press release, the tour will be hosted by series veteran Jamie Redknapp with Jill Scott and Tony Bellew serving as team captains. Scousers, comedian and A League of Their Own regular Tom Davis, very funny man, will also join in the fun. Etc. Etc. Now that's. I can't think of an example. I mean, when you're one calls League of Their Own a panel show, it's in the loosest sense because it became a Bigger thing than that. But I'm not sure I've seen a comedy show of this sort go to arenas before, and I'm sure whoever's promoting it will think they'll sell them out.

36:32

Well, you've done. You've seen the kind of tours of things like sketches, like the first show.

37:12

Slightly different thing, though.

37:17

Yeah.

37:18

And I don't think at arena level. I don't think so. I think big theaters.

37:18

We did try. We looked at it a while ago with haven't got news for you. The problem with have I got news for you Is you have to keep changing it every night. Yeah.

37:22

You can't trot it out as it works.

37:31

You can't.

37:32

It's got to be. It's got to be new.

37:33

It's got to be responding to the. To the news. So in the end, it became a logistical.

37:34

Quite difficult to put a lot of big production into it, wouldn't it?

37:39

Oh, yeah.

37:42

It really is sitting behind a desk.

37:43

You have to do it. Maybe you could do it at the. At the Apollo or something like a 2000 seater. But, you know, we did think about doing it at the Albert hall for a week.

37:45

Yeah.

37:52

And we were approached by a couple of theater producers to do that. But in the end it just felt like you couldn't really sustain the quality, you know, and Paul Merton and Ian Hislop, they'd have to kind of do the same thing night after night. And that's not the show. But, you know, you build up these brands and now, you know, I told you, I've encountered this horrendous expression which is called the flywheel of value. You have a program or you have an asset set on YouTube, and the value you get from it is what you do around it. So live. Live shows, podcasts, merchandising, all these things are. You know, we used to do that in the old days with. With, you know, VHS and Christmas books, but now it's a different game. So, you know, the light. We did Drop the Dead Donkey. Recently, we've toured Drop the Dead Donkey, which was a show we did in the 90s about a newsroom for those of you who are too young to remember it. And it sold out around the country, but it was only playing theaters, so it basically didn't make any profit. It washed its face. It's good fun. Great show.

37:53

Interesting to see what other shows you could do this with. And it does occur to me you could do it with. Never mind the buzz car.

38:53

You could. You could do.

39:00

You've got music there which fills an arena.

39:01

You could have live bands.

39:03

The truth is I used to own half of the format rights.

39:04

Well, the. Never mind or the buzz cost bit.

39:08

When I came up with the title, the title was my title. But when I sold Talk Back in 2000, I sold my IP with a company. Am I going to regret that?

39:10

You're looking a bit wistful now.

39:19

Yeah. When it's filling well, I'm going to

39:20

reveal that I've actually secretly bought the rice, that I'm on the bus car and I'm putting it on a world tour.

39:23

It's just like when Michael Jackson bought the rights in the Beatles songs to the annoyance of the surviving Beatles. It's been quite a music themed show, isn't it?

39:28

That's been all right. All right. You're an expert in music. I'm just a. I'm just a lay person, but I think. Have we come to the end of our conversation this week?

39:37

I think we might have done. That's all for this week. Thanks very much for listening. Any questions about the world of television or indeed music that you've always wanted to ask, send them our way. We'd love to hear from you.

39:47

You can get us on our email or on socials. All the details are in the description.

39:56

Or we might even be doing an arena tour starting in September.

40:01

Yeah.

40:04

Should we do it? Start in Liverpool?

40:04

Absolutely. We'll start in the well known cocaine arena.

40:06

Even better yet, why not subscribe to our YouTube channel?

40:11

Yes. Thanks for listening and do tell your friends and watch or listen to insiders wherever you get your podcasts.

40:14