Attention-Deficit Neuropsychology (ADHD) Part 2 Encore with How to ADHD, Black Girl Lost Keys, Jahla Osborne + more

500 orders a month was manageable. 5,000 is my place. Embrace intelligent order fulfillment with shipstation. The only platform combined in order management, where-house workflows, inventory, returns and analytics in one place. What used to take five separate tools, shipstation does in one. Go to shipstation.com and use code start to try shipstation free for 60 days. Oh, hey, 2025 Allie here with the beloved on quarter part two of our ADHD series. It's so good. It's so validating. So helpful. Let's hit it. Oh, hey, it's one of those cows that they blow dried. You're like, wow, that cow looks fantastic. Allie Ward, hunger the hell down. Boy, how do you hot damn? It's ADHD part two. I hope you're wearing a waterproof poncho for your feelings. And also that you have a bag of confetti nearby to punctuate some epiphanies. You're going to love this. First, really quickly, thank you to everyone at patreon.com. Sashology is for supporting the show. Thank you to every single person who has recommended this episode or the podcast to others. Thanks for rating and reviewing that really keeps it up in the charts. And I read every single review like this steamy hot one from Allison Deer who wrote, I gasped when I saw the ADHD title and had an actual good cries for my first listen. My third child is in the process of diagnoses and we are in it right now. And trench, they're right. This episode could be a significant help to our family and crisis. Thank you, isn't enough. Allison Deer, thank you for that review. The reviews really, really keep me going. Megatron 0259, yes, we can be best friends. No, I cannot give you a ride to the airport. Y'all's reviews, I read them. Okay, part two, let's do it. So last week, part one, you heard from Dr. Russell Bargley who is a figurehead of the current scientific understanding of ADHD. And believe me, I understand the delicious irony of a nearly two hour episode made for people with a focused disorder. That was not lost on us here at Oligis HQ, but there were a lot of questions to address. It's an important topic and you can always pause and come back as many times as you need. So why the part two then? Well, feelings. It's incredibly validating to learn about all the hard science and the gravity of ADHD. But I wanted also to chat with folks out there documenting their lived experience of ADHD and trying to bridge the gaps between ADHD brains and a world that's built for neurotypicals. So tips, workarounds, hacks, their self acceptance, and very much why this isn't just a disorder for your nephew who practices karate during a social studies test. So today we have three ADHD experts. Number one, we've got Jessica McCabe, everyone who has ADHD learned all the strategies and all the tricks to overcome their ADHD and be able to function fine in a neurotypical world. What's the problem with that? A lot. She, her, of How to ADHD, which is a fantastic YouTube channel that just crossed a million subscribers, Hell yes, all kinds of information there on How to ADHD. And we have Renee Brooks. The clinician is an expert you've hired to work for you. She, her who has run the site Black Girl Lost Keys since discovering the need for it in 2014. And then rounding it out, we've got neuroscientist, Jela Osborne. We just want to make sure that we don't draw conclusions from a super small sample if it's not like representative. She, her and Jela is a graduate student with ABS in psychology from University of Denver, currently researching ADHD in the cognitive neuroimaging lab at the University of Michigan. Oh, and then a couple of surprise cameos. What are we off our rockers? Yes, we are. We care so much. So please join us as we just fire you up with tales about the strengths of an ADHD brain, notable people with ADHD from the past and the present writing a book, knitting in meetings, the curse of the parking ticket, the iconic struggles of obtaining medication. How to know what medication is right for you, diagnoses, what seems like a sharp spike in pandemic diagnoses. Stigmas, accommodations, overlaps with autism and what it feels like as a beautiful round peg to jam your face into square holes every single day on this episode of Oligies, ADHD Part 2. Okay, so to kick this off, let's start with some fawning and some crying. I had seen your videos because my husband has ADHD and we watched your TED talk together and, oh, it's going to make me so much, but he just started like bawling during it. What can I tell you to help you understand ADHD? First of all, it's real. It's not bad parenting or lack of discipline. ADHD is a neurodevelopmental disorder. It's currently the most well-researched mental condition and there are actually measurable differences in the brain. These differences are larger in children, but for most people, they never go away. In other words, adults have ADHD too. Have you noticed listeners and viewers' questions have changed a lot in the last two years too? Do you feel like there's a collective kind of low, a lot of us are going through? Yeah, I realized after a bit that I was still doing the same thing and there was a moment where I was like, this is really hard for me to focus on and I'm sure it's going to be hard for people to even focus on to watch. Maybe we need something else right now. And I'm really glad that I did that because it's the last couple of years have really shifted my perspective about what's needed in terms of support for people with ADHD too and what the world can be because if we learned anything from COVID, it's that the world can change and the world can change fast. The way things are isn't the way that things always have to be. And as a 2025 update, Jessica has become an author and her 2024 book is How to ADHD and Insiders Guide to Working with Your Brain, Not Against It. And in her book, she covers the tools that have changed her life and the realities of living with ADHD, like strategies for adapting your environment and routines and systems will include a link to her book and the show notes and on our website. In addition to becoming an author, she has also become a mom. And so if you're a parent with ADHD, you can definitely check out her How to ADHD channel on YouTube and her Patreon. She has whole videos on parenting with ADHD where she explains things like how to do less or how to curate activities, how to externalize more, recharge regularly and let others help. What are you doing for yourself? What changes have you made in the past couple of years or even, yeah, in the past two years to make sure that you're supporting yourself and that you're getting all of your, your own needs met? Foundry is it. Foundry is something I am learning. How to say no. Renee Brooks of Black Girl Lost Keys has a great phrase that I try to remember now, which is guard your yes with your life. And so I'm doing that. Perfect handoff to our second guest who thankfully had a weak access point to her yes, which I was able to exploit. So when Renee Brooks of Black Girl Lost Keys wrote back and said she'd be on a shrieked, I was so excited. And with so many folks being newly diagnosed, she's an incredible resource that she frankly didn't have. So you're welcome, everyone. When I was getting diagnosed with ADHD, what we know of as like ADHD TikTok, Twitter, all of that stuff, none of that existed. It wasn't that it was a wasteland. There was good information online. There were people like Terry Mantlin, Linda Rogley, Rick Green, lots of lots of good information out there. It's just that you had to go digging for it in a way that you don't necessarily have to dig for it now. So my ADHD diagnosis was not something that I learned about from the internet. I learned about it from an accident. I was being treated for depression by a therapist. And I just so happened to mention and passing to her like, oh, yeah, they tried to diagnose me with this ADHD thing when I was a kid, but my mom was like, no way. And we moved on. And I went to continue my story and she stopped me mid sentence, sent me to an ADHD specialist who just so happened to work in her office. And we moved on from there. But for sure, if it hadn't been for me mentioning that in passing, probably we wouldn't be here. Wow. That's, was it a relief to you to approach it from a different direction at that point? It was. It certainly made a lot more sense than the idea of me just being depressed with no kind of way out, which is funny because I have this thymia, which is, you know, it's just a low level depression that just kind of never goes away. But there's so much about ADHD, like your self reflection, who you think you are and how you fit into the world is constantly feels almost eroded by not realizing, you know, it's like finding out you were not the person that you thought you were. Like I think the only thing you can really like it into is like finding out that I don't know that you're like secretly a princess or something. Something like, we spin your entire life in the context of you being this person who you did not know that you were. I'm a princess. So you're even now, every once in a while, some experience will occur to me, like, you know, from my past life and I'll go, oh, oh, that was ADHD. That wasn't what I thought it was. There's a lot of that, especially at first. So it's a relief because you find out there's even like a famous book title about it. You mean I'm not lazy, crazy or stupid. Yeah. I've seen that. This book, you mean I'm not lazy, stupid or crazy is by Kate Kelly and Peggy Rommando and that'll be linked alongside a ton of resources on my webpage. That'll be linked in the show notes, but I do love the title and it kind of makes me want to work on a memoir called, are you there ADHD? It's me, chaos, but that's a personal chapter for another day. But back to what seems like a spike in diagnoses is ADHD, like the middle part of neurodiversity. Does everyone have it? What is Jessica of how to ADHD think? You know, I know that the last couple years have been pretty bananas and have you found yourself also dealing with it's kind of a title wave of people who maybe they do have ADHD and it was undiagnosed or misdiagnosed. Do you feel like there's more talk about it in the last couple years? There's definitely more talk about it and there's a number of reasons for that. There's a lot more talk about mental health in general last couple years because people who were maybe skating by or could maybe cope were doing so. Like maybe they were barely above water but they were still like managing to be above water and then COVID hit and you know, maybe there's a parent who suddenly they're having to homeschool their kids and work from home. Everything's changed all at once. It's too much demand on their executive function. They can't ignore it anymore. And I think for everybody who gets diagnosed for the most part, there is a point, usually shortly before they get diagnosed where the demands on their executive function, the demands that society is putting on them are too much for whatever coping mechanisms they've been skating by with so far. So for me, that was in middle school. My mom got in a car accident. We had to change schools. My mom was in a hospital bed and I didn't have the same accommodations of, you know, my mom saying, hey, don't forget your jacket. Here's your homework or whatever. And I was going to middle school and a new school. So I had to learn a completely different set of rules and expectations and different friends. It was just, it was so much changed so much at once without the, you know, essentially executive function support that my mom had been provided, been providing. And I was responsible for getting myself to school on time for remembering to bring my own books to class. And it was too much for my executive function to handle. So I suddenly went from being a straight A student to my GPA dropped to 2.4, like immediately. For me, it was, it was hard because the first doctor that my mom took me to said, well, how did she do on them? And tree school amount said, well, she, she was gifted. She's a straight A student. And he said, then she can't have ADHD. Oh, that makes me want to cry. Right. And so I feel like a lot of people might be going through that right now where like suddenly things are so, so hard and they're, they're coping strategies aren't enough for them anymore and they're going to get checked out. And these doctors who don't maybe know better are saying, well, how did you do as a, as a kid, you know, let me look at your elementary school report cards. First of all, like what adult with ADHD still has their elementary school report cards? Location unknown. But that's beside the point. But this whole idea that because you're an adult and ADHD is something that you're usually quote unquote, diagnosed with in childhood that you, that you don't have it. So I, I see a lot of people being diagnosed now, but I also see a lot of people being afraid to go and seek a diagnosis because they're afraid of being dismissed. What about advice for people who suspect that they might have ADHD, but haven't gotten a diagnosis because they're maybe they present as female or they're not white and they get, for example, so many people that I talk to for this podcast, especially who are people of color, were just, they were dismissed as having behavioral problems just because of structural racism. So what kind of advice do you have for people who may have been overlooked in terms of getting a diagnosis? Yeah, I mean, that unfortunately happens a lot. There's solid research on this that, you know, a little black boy is going to be more likely to be diagnosed with like oppositional defiance or conduct disorder versus a little white boy, which is, you know, who's going to be more likely to be diagnosed with ADHD and that that's really unfortunate. So looking for a doctor that's culturally competent is really important. And somebody who understands ADHD arguably maybe even more so because somebody who is really well versed in ADHD, who specializes in ADHD, is going to be much more likely to be able to recognize it regardless of what other intersectionalities are present because, yeah, some people mask it. So yes, as we covered in part one, folks who are assigned female birth or who present as girls or women can get overlooked and that is mirrored in racial biases as well about which probably very few of us are surprised that all of us should be outraged. And actually before I interview Dr. Moore, aka curly scientist for the forensic ecology episode, I had seen her pinned tweet, which I thought was so helpful and it read, hi, I have ADHD. If you need to send me a long email, try not to. It would help if you put a response needed by date in the subject, bold, important dates and times, and highlight compensation amount. Thank you, hashtag ADHD and STEM. And I was like, that's great to know. And also all emails should just be this way. I mean, let's be honest. Now this clip you're about to hear wasn't in the published episode because I was saving it for this one. So here is me and Dr. T. Armore. And you know, I saw a tweet of yours too about ADHD and I think it's so interesting how many scientists I talked to who have ADHD and part of what makes them so great at science is that you're constantly asking questions and learning and things are changing and you're able to cope well with it. And so interesting that you bothered up because it was something that was a struggle for a while. And first of all, not understanding that I had it or what was going on and then getting medicine and being like, whoa. This is different. And then having to become an advocate and say, wow, I was so embarrassed in the show but like, no, this could help people and a lot of other people. By me talking about it, went and got assessed and are now been diagnosed. So it's just like, wow, especially in black communities, we're not taking that seriously when it comes to that type of diagnosis. And I remember, and when I was at school, it was like, oh, you're just bad. You just running around. When the whole time I had ADHD. That fucking kills me. Think about that. In part one with Dr. Berkeley, we really covered how dangerous undiagnosed and untreated ADHD is and how symptoms being attributed to a moral failing cause lasting consequences and self-image. So if it seems like there's a rise in diagnoses, it's partly because so many people via social media have access to information that wasn't given to them at an appropriate time. You look back and then you're like, how did teachers, guidance counselors, parents, psychologists, like how did everyone miss this? But see, that's what I'm saying. They did miss it. They were calling me bad. They were saying, hey, tears acting out. They're calling my grandma to the school to come get me. So instead of saying, oh, maybe we should take her somewhere and get checked out. It's just, oh, you're wrong. Oh, you're not good. So I think that is the disconnect of maybe not having folks who understand it in the school system, not going to really what's going on. So yeah, it's a lot more work that could be done for sure. Thankfully, as Dr. Berkeley mentioned in part one, more and more studies come out every year. And who's doing them? University of Michigan PhD student, J. Laosborne in the cognition and cognitive neuroscience department. And she is researching distractibility within ADHD as well as race biases in perceptions of ADHD symptoms. And also big thanks to blackinneuro.com for having an incredible member directory, just casually full of amazing brainy specialists in neuroscience. Now J. La couldn't divulge some facts and figures because the findings aren't yet published. So stay tuned Dr. Russell Berkeley. But we hopped on the horn last week to gab about her active research in two different labs. Sure. So right now I'm particularly studying distractibility in ADHD. So distractions can stem from either the external environments like noises or visuals stimuli or the internal environments like mind wandering, daily dreaming or even negative thinking. My current work is trying to assess if individuals with ADHD are equally susceptible to both types of distractions, so external or internal or if they're specifically susceptible to a certain type of distraction. And I'm particularly studying adults with ADHD for this. So. Oh, that's great. When you're doing this research, do you have to set up like pop up windows on the computer or have someone come in with a bunch of clattering dishes in the inside? In the room. How do you set that up? Yeah. So right now we've done a lot of like survey stuff. So the first studies have been more survey based and people just fill them out and we're looking at the data just based on self-report. So phase one, surveys asking about how distracted people get. Phase two, bring in the machines. But right now we are carrying up for a second follow up study where we are using computer tasks. And so we have like external distractions embedded into the task itself. So usually it's like a visual stimuli that we're using as our external distraction. But other studies in passive use more ecologically valid distractors. So maybe like noises in a cafe or something like that or pencils dropping things that would be like actually in the environment. Or somebody but far studies, no, we're not bringing in dishes and things like that. I always picture labs just having a like a prop room when it comes to neuroscience labs. I always like to picture them that they're like, okay, we've got a clown walking by. We're going to see if people get scared, if their heart rate goes up. I have a feeling that's probably mostly in my imagination, but still sounds fun. Yeah. Maybe once the pandemic subsides and things like that. A lot of the stuff we're doing right now is just on the computer so people can do it remotely. That's so cool. And plus there's a lot of tasks that have, you know, like classic kind of psychological tasks that have been like established. So we'll use like a flanker task or assignment task or things like that that have kind of been established in the literature. Okay. So the flanker sounded like a Swedish disco move. So I looked it up and it's actually a test where a screen has a bunch of arrows either in all kinds of directions or all going one direction and your interior, singular cortex, which is in the front of your brain, Jello has to cut the crap through all those messy arrows and figure out which way, just the arrow in the center of the screen is going. So if you're in a basketball game and you're shaking pool noodles at someone trying to make a three pointer, their interior, singular cortex is like, do you mind? Please don't. Likewise, in ADHD studies have shown that folks with ADHD can have significant cortical thinning in the right, hostile interior, singular cortex. So the flanker task might rat you out. Now the assignment effect is like when you see the word green written in yellow font or you're asked to press a button on the right side of the keyboard, even though the type appears on the left side of the screen. And what I love about learning about all this is that neuroscientists are doing so much to help us understand our brains all while being absolute pranksters. They're like processing speed in regard to incrogruity of manual extension of index finger and auditory perception of flattis. Who am I thinking? Lowell. Like that could be a legit study. And speaking of legit studies, let's chat again in 2025 with the now doctor, Jela Osborne. When I sent her a note, letting her know we're re-aering this and she was kind enough to send us a voice note as an update with what she's got going on. So let's roll that tape. Hi everyone, I'm Jela Osborne. You might remember me from the ADHD episode of Oligies where we talked about how I study and research distractability with an ADHD. Since then, I've finished my PhD and recently defended my doctoral dissertation at the University of Michigan, where I studied ADHD using computational models. Tools that help us understand how attention and cognitive control unfold over time. One big question driving my work is this. When people with ADHD struggle with resisting a distraction, why does that happen? Is it because habitual or automatic-like responses kick into fast or because goal-directed responses come on too late? In a manuscript that's currently under peer review, I use what we call the force response method, where people have to respond at very specific times. This approach lets us separate these fast habitual processing from slower goal-directed processing. So the forced response method involves adding time pressure to a computer exercise. That's that one identifying the direction of an arrow amongst all sorts of distractions on the screen. In one 2024 study reports that tasks show that urgency opens up a time window in which responses are stimulus driven and they overpower the mechanisms for cognitive control that drive intentional action. So TLDR on that is time pressure increases focus, which for chronic procrastinators, hi, I'm Ali, is not just a discovery of science, but it's a way of life. And I'll share more at the end of the episode about what's been working for me since 2022. Using this approach, we found evidence that points toward delays in goal-directed processing as a contributing factor to challenges with inhibitory control and ADHD. Right now, I'm a postdoctoral researcher at Northeastern University and the Brain Game Center for Mental Fitness and Wellbeing. I'm expanding this work to include adolescents with ADHD and older adults at risk for Alzheimer's and related dementia. With the goal of developing cognitive training and intervention strategies that support cognitive health across the lifespan. So she's doing a postdoc, which is amazing, helping to figure out what hacks are scientifically sound and what are flimflam. So Dr. Osborne, we love you for this. At the end of the day, my work is about understanding attention, not as a flaw, but as a dynamic system, one that we can study, support, and design better environments for. So on that note, back to the original episode. But scientists are working to make this field more accessible and the lack of accessibility during her diagnosis journey inspired Renee to make black girl laskies. And as mentioned in part one, formed the unicorn squad, which is a support group and a safe space for black people of marginalized genders to discuss ADHD. And it's also open to parents of those people. Renee's own ADHD backstory is interesting because she was diagnosed as a child and then two more times. I had no idea that I had it. I know now as an adult that I had ADHD as a child, but I had never been told what I had or what it meant. And it was mainly because no one told my mom what it meant. And all they said was that her gifted child, her straight-a student had ADHD without any real information about what that needed, what that meant rather. She was just like, there's nothing wrong with my kid. I, and that was the end of it. There's so many resources now that were not available in 2009, which it doesn't seem like it was that long ago, but it was. There were no black people doing anything that was, that's the whole reason I created black girl, laskies, because there wasn't anything. I was writing a post about what it's like to be black with ADHD, which funny enough never existed on the blog before. And as I was going through a list of like, here's all the people who talk about it. It shocked me. And I started to cry because there was nothing. There was nothing when I got diagnosed. And I looked and I really wanted there to be something. So this is good. But I was, the point that I was making, sorry, is that when, when a lot of us came into the world of ADHD, we usually ran into either hell well or barkly first. When you really wanted to get into the brass tax of what it meant. And so barkly was my initiate. I like hell well too, but you know, that was, that was my initiation into that world. But I'm really encouraged by what's available now versus what was available, even like I said, if, if there was so little for me, imagine how much little there was 10 years before I was diagnosed. And 10 years before that. One of these studying misdiagnoses, of course, Sheila Osborne. So what are some of the wise there, both systemically and also personally for her? There are probably people who you know, didn't have access to clinical psychologists or psychiatrists or you know, the ability to undergo some sort of like evaluation to be able to diagnose. So I'm sure that it definitely happens to get some of these services typically, you know, you need to be aware of what even this disorder is, who to go to to get evaluated. And sometimes it can cost money to like get some of these evaluations. So if you don't have those things, then it can make it difficult. So yeah. Do you have a mission in terms of the work that you do in changing the way that ADHD is diagnosed or missed in any certain populations or just in general awareness about it? Is there any kind of motivation behind a lot of your work? Yeah, I would say that the motivation behind my work comes with my brother. So my brother has ADHD. And you know, just kind of seeing like growing up the struggles that he had academically, the struggles that he had with like self-esteem because of like the way that the learning difference that he had and how it wasn't really accepted in like traditional school settings and how that impacted him. And then also ADHD can have functional consequences. So not everybody with ADHD will necessarily have these consequences, but people with ADHD are less likely to go to college or even graduate from college more likely to change jobs or like get fired. And then they're also more likely to experience criminal incarceration. Basically, my motivation just comes from wanting to lessen the functional consequences that can happen for individuals with ADHD. Anyone out there with siblings whose brains work a little differently from yours? Show hands? Okay, almost everyone got it. So remember from Russell's episode, siblings can make a really huge impact just on how we see the world and how we see others. So my own sisters, Celeste and Gnell, I'm sorry for singing along to Klondike Bar commercials like an opera singer at 7am and stealing your berets. But as we learned in part one, ADHD is starting to be looked at as a spectrum disorder like autism, but the two can overlap kind of like a technical or vent diagram. So some research suggests this combo is 37 to 85% of people who have one have the other. So what is Jessica see in her how to ADHD audience? And also do we need to a new name like A-S-D-H-D? No? Okay. So many listeners were curious about the autism and ADHD overlap and how often that does get misdiagnosed. Have you had to do a lot of research for that given that you have so many members of your community that are both? So my brother actually is autistic and oh, and I endured my brother and growing up I've noticed a lot of my friends a lot of people I am just naturally drawn to are neurodivergent somehow. I like you. Ended up turning out to either have ADHD or autism or both. And so it's a it's almost like a special interest for me. Like I'm kind of obsessed with autism. ADHD is the thing that I do that I that I definitely specialize in that I talk about on my channel and I don't speak about autism as much because it's not my personal experience. But I do find it fascinating. So there are a lot of times where I'm reading journal articles about it or talking to the autistic brains in my community and really trying to understand their experience because in a lot of ways ADHD can be in the middle between the between neurotypicals and the autistic community and it felt like at least growing up for me I had to translate a lot. Like my brother and my mom were so different their brains were so different that they were completely incompatible. My mom had no idea what my brother was trying to say. My brother had no idea what my mom was trying to say. And so I ended up kind of being the translator. I'm like I don't completely get you but I understand enough of this that I can explain to mom and my mom would explain something neurotypical and I'm like I don't completely understand it but like I get enough of it to explain to my brother. Which explains why Jessica is so good at relaying and being an ambassador between neuro divergent and neurotypical folks and why she might have a passion for that and she's also so good with analogies. She's like someone who's really good at something if the thing were an analogy to use an analogy. It's really like we're on different operating systems. They're their neurotypical brains and you know there are I mean and not I'm not even saying everybody who's neurotypical has the same brain. Nobody with ADHD has the same brain as another person with ADHD either but think of neurotypical brains because they're the majority. Most people are neurotypical. They're like you know windows, PCs and that's what most people use is that that's what most people know how to use and ADHD brains are kind of like max where a lot of people use them but you know those who don't like don't really know how to use them and if you try and use a map like it's a PC it's not going to go well right like different shortcuts and then you like you hit a magic button or you like do something on the screen and something happens and you're like what what did I do I just pushed a button and now like this whole proke other programs running like I don't get it like stop, come back slow down and then and then autistic brains Dr. Rafael Boca-Mazza is very public about his autism who I also work with will explain that like Linux. Nobody knows what is nobody knows what that Linux is unless you unless you're one of the very few people who likes Linux knows everybody else looks at like like what the I don't even recognize this I don't know what to do with this now on any of these operating systems if you try to use this operating system like it's a different operating system you would think it was broken you would think there was something wrong with it because this the shortcuts you're used to using aren't working the commands you're used to using aren't working and so the temptation is well let's fix that right like let's reprogram this thing to like make it work the way that that a the windows does but the truth is that diversity is really valuable it's great and I'm not saying it's it's always great to have a D. She there's times I'm not great to have a D. She but overall neurodiversity in the world is valuable thing because it allows people to come at things from different perspectives if everybody's work brain work the same way then everybody's brain work the same way and we wouldn't have all the innovative ideas that we do and I love that so different brains have different strengths and we're stronger with diversity and I found an article in Healthline about what type of work environments ADHDers thrive in and it's said passion fueled high intensity ultra structured lightning pace and hands on creative and psychotherapist dr. Stephanie starkis is quoted as saying people with ADHD tend to work well in a fast-paced high intensity environment like that of an emergency room or an ambulance so when you think of ADHD folks chasing adrenaline or whatever remember that your trauma surgeon or your firefighter a lot of athletes and teachers and social workers and performers are like oh is this job too much for you that's okay we got it which reminds me of the hunter farmer hypothesis that was made by a radio personality whose son had ADHD and some people hate this notion it's not scientifically backed with evolutionary biology or theory but it resonates as validating for some others like Jared who is the kind of good Samaritan who like runs toward peril to help strangers and I was talking to my wonderful mother-in-law about just that theory of people with ADHD in particular being hunters in a world of farmers or in a farming world like have you heard that one does that come up a lot I have yeah and there's some truth to that the way that society functions right now is really not for an ADHD brain it's really not there is far too much paperwork they're like male and there's so much admin stuff like like trying to stay on top of things is really really difficult yeah and the truth is you know whether hunter gather whatever like there are environments that are definitely more accessible to the ADHD brain if you put me in an environment that requires me to have really good time management skills and organizational skills I'm going to be really disabled quite frankly because those are things that I really really struggle with but if you put me in an environment where it's like a you know like put me a think tank right like be like hey we have this new idea like what do you think great now I'm gonna thrive right put me in an environment where I can where I can move around and like come up with new ideas and take a break when I need to take a break and like there's some flexibility like I'm gonna do great so I don't mind using strategies and stuff to help me get to to dinner on time with a friend but if I have to get to everything on time and I don't get my brain anytime to wander I notice I start getting depressed I need to be a mac I'm a mac right and I can and I can enter I can interface with a PC and I can learn to do that but asking me to be a PC which honestly I did to myself for a long time there's this kind of internalized ableism that I realized when I started my channel I started it so that I could learn what was wrong with my brain and how to fix it so that then I could essentially be neurotypical like I was so frustrated with the way that my brain was getting in my way that I was just like let me go learn what I'm dealing with learn how to fix it so I can go back to my life only now neurotypical essentially I didn't know that that's what I was doing but it's essentially what I was doing I want to be on time and organized and and disciplined and consistent and all of these things that I thought you had to be to be successful and the funny thing is I learned so many strategies for doing this and I read so much research and and learned all the things and tried all the things and couldn't stick to most of the things but but I realized like I'm still not there yet right I'm still not there yet maybe this strategy maybe this strategy like there's eventually going to be this this one magical thing that I'm going to find it's going to you know find it finally everything's going to click into place and I'm going to be able to do the things that I thought that I quote unquote should do as a good employee boss youtuber I don't know whatever at some point I'm going to get my shit together and the thing is it never quite happened for me but I also looked around and saw oh crap I'm successful like what what wait hang on like there's this like break in the space time continuum or something like why did I be able to be successful but I still have a you see I still have these challenges my my car is still a mess and I'm still late to things and I'm still struggling but also I'm successful and I realized it's not only not possible to completely overcome your ADHD it's it's not even necessary and this idea that we have to right that that this is who we have to be or what we have to do to to be acceptable in the world or to be worthy of our success is really harmful and toxic and something that um that I'm kind of rebelling against right now so rather than self-reproach or conformity you can see your strengths and celebrate the w's because she outlines the alternative to self-acceptance like imagine okay quote unquote perfect world in which everyone who has ADHD learned all the strategies and all the tricks to overcome their ADHD and be able to function fine in a narrativeical world what's the problem with that a lot one every single person with ADHD is now paying an enormous ADHD tax of all of the money that they're having to spend and time they're having to spend on learning these strategies and paying for these strategies so that they can function in this narrativeical world right so it takes an incredible toll on us personally it also takes a toll on our self-esteem because like this this whole time we're we're telling ourselves how we are is not okay and we have to be different we have to be more like how somebody else naturally is it takes a hit to our self-esteem to our finances because you know we're spent probably spending a lot of money on these strategies to our time because we're having to spend a lot of time learning about these strategies but worse we're now ensuring that the next generation has to do the exact same thing because the world has not had to change so if you're neurodivergent and you help make the world a friendly or place to others and yourself and you work with your strengths instead of trying to twist yourself into someone else's pretzel you make a better future for other people now if you're here because you suspect you have ADHD is it possible to just resonate so hard with a piece of content or a podcast that you're pretty much diagnosed not so fast I'm not a doctor but Renee has advice well I would recommend like this is no diss to any creator but I think it's important like if you've consistently seen yourself in the content it's important to start moving towards talking to professionals because there are some things that can mimic ADHD that you can also be dealing with it like a lot of these things can play together like bipolar can look like ADHD trauma can look like ADHD the same three can exist all in one person so I think it's important to when possible like obviously there are limitations because of finances accessibility like a million different other reasons but think it's important if to the best of your ability to get in front of a pro when you've seen like 40 of these videos and you're pretty convinced that that's what's happening because you could be absolutely right or you could be partially right and I think the partially right is probably more dangerous than being completely wrong so of course yes seek a professional opinion and if you're looking for a good professional there's a wealth of resources available at Chad children and adults with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder and a DDA attention deficit disorder association and those are causes close to Jessica and Renee so we made donations respectively and those URLs will be linked in the show notes and we also donated to Jaila's charity of choice failsafe which fosters positive change in those affected by incarceration and failsafe's blueprint for reentry is to empower and restore hope to inmates the formerly incarcerated that they refer to as returning citizens and family members affected by incarceration so there's more info about them at failsafe.ir a.org and those donations were made possible by sponsors of the show 500 orders a month was manageable Embrace intelligent order fulfillment with shipstation the only platform combining order management where else workflows inventory returns and analytics in one place what used to take five separate tools shipstation does him one go to shipstation.com and use code start to try shipstation free for 60 days okay let's address some list of questions we didn't get to answer in part one so Annika wants to know if people are ever shocked to find these creators have ADHD and if that makes them annoyed and Annika writes I'm so tired of hearing from people that it's a super power when I'm weeks away from complete burnout remember I was diagnosed almost 13 years ago so I mean like by varying by virtue of what I do for a living no one is ever shocked now that I have ADHD but back when I was originally diagnosed uh yeah I got a lot of what do you mean you have ADHD but you're so smart and it took a lot of like well actually ADHD doesn't actually have an effect on your intelligence in one direction or the other but all as much as people like people only only only people who are geniuses have it that is not true there's I've never seen anything research wise that would indicate that it doesn't seem to have any effect on intelligence in one direction or the other Russell Barclay said the same thing Russell like I love Russell I do I like I know everyone has their favorites but I like Russell so do we obviously and Dr. Barclay reads all the research and his mission is to legitimize the struggle so if you haven't listened to part one go back and listen to it it is thorough it's serious and it's not not a bummer but it's also incredibly validating and so many of you wrote to me saying you wept at feeling so thoroughly understood so there's also hope and therapies in that one including information on medication which works extremely well for the vast majority of people with ADHD if you can get it filled patrons Natalie M. Case Jennifer Green Larry Bauer and first time question askers Alexis Salazar and Bobby Minard asked about medication strategies and Rebecca Weinzettle wrote on patreon is there a way I can get diagnosed and prescribed at or all without having to keep track of several forms remember to get them filled out and then actually mail them back to a doctor I simply have too much ADHD for all that have you found any work around with the responsibility of having to see a clinician and go get your refill in person and jump through so many flaming hoops no just to get there's not one I appreciate the fact that you thought I might have a solution for that it is the least at ADHD friendly situation it's almost like it's so bad that it almost seems like it would have to be intentional like it is like you could not have created a worse process you had to been trying to and it's different in every state by the way in case in case your listeners didn't know like like some places you have to do a your analysis some places you don't some places you have to carry a paper script some places you don't some places they can call it in some places they can't sometimes they can call it in 90 days sometimes they can only do 30 I got my meds the other day and it was a 14 day supply and I still haven't had the patience to call my doctor and find out why they wrote it that way and my doctor and I have a great relationship but I'm just like I looked and rolled my eyes and I was like I can't do it no I just can't my doctor called in uh violence for me that was available last Monday and I still haven't picked it up and CVS is two miles away oh that's right story time so my doctor suspect that some of my decades-long troubles with anxiety and perfectionism and overwork and overwhelm you can see the entire procrastination episode are just well-massed ADHD as well so this cropped up for me during the pandemic when I realized despite being home and not on airplanes for a month or two for the first time in years I was still really struggling with deadlines and assignments and I was lucky to be selected by patreon to be mentored alongside a handful of creators including the music producer laser beak any lawn of doom tree record and flash forward creator rose evalette uh comics explained robert jeferson was it a justine of two black girls one rose and jeska mccabe was in this patreon group and I already loved her work and we both were really struggling with getting our assignments on time for it and jeska talked me on the side about getting evaluated which I did just a few months ago so between that and the concussion I'm just now seeing if medication or just new strategies are right for me but it's a bit of adjustment after knowing so much about jerry's ADHD and thinking I was the neuro typical one oops maybe I think everybody else thought and I didn't but does jeska have advice about medication zinniah home and rainbow warrior both asked essentially they have ADHD but stimulants despite other virtues as rainbow warrior said only seem to make me able to switch between tasks faster or zinniah asked they have anxiety and they're worried that stimulants would push them over the edge do you have any tips for people who are diagnosed or are thinking that they might be but stimulants haven't been a good fit for them yeah I mean that's really it's it's a matter of trial and error and the truth is like it's still a bit of a craft shoot we don't know yet which meds are gonna work for which brains and there's some genetic testing but it's not really great yet so really it's you got to try something and if it doesn't work be honest that it's not working or or be really really open with your doctor about how you feel on it because odds are there's a different one that would work for you or a different dose that would work for you you know my doctor at one point switched me to a different medication and I was like nope I don't like this put me back on the other one this one doesn't work as well and he he said well I put you on a lower dose at first to make sure that you know you don't have any problematic side effects you don't if it's just that it doesn't seem to be working as well before you switch back to the other one let me raise the dose a little bit and then see how you feel and then he did and I was like oh my god everything just clicked into place I was like this feels like me I feel like me I feel functional I feel like I can do things but it doesn't feel like my medication is what's making me do things it just feels like what I imagine most people feel like when they have a cup of coffee in the morning they're like cool let's do this ready to work yeah and I was like it was just magical when I found the right one so really it's just a process of trial and error but medication should not have more side effects than they're worth right and so for 80% I think the statistic is for 80% of people with ADHD medication works really really well and it's just a matter of finding the right one and then there are people that medication doesn't work for and other strategies are going to be better for that and you know there's also non-stimulate medication is an option it didn't work for me but there are some people that really like they're non-stimulate medications so there's just a lot options Dr. Hallowell Dr. Ned Hallowell who's like the Superman of ADHD and wrote you know driven to distraction and delivered from distraction and just a ton of books on ADHD and is a phenomenal psychiatrist has his own podcast meds don't work for him dang it he drinks a lot of coffee meds don't work for him and so it's just so it's so interesting to me that as a psychiatrist he would be diagnosed with something that he talks about all the time and and medication doesn't work for him and it's really something to talk you know something to talk to your doctor about and this is also why I think it's really important to to understand their other tools available not only because sometimes the meds don't work but also because sometimes the meds aren't worth it right like if you really hate how you feel on meds like it might not be worth it to you or maybe you do have side effects from that from meds or whatever they're typically really mild but you know everybody's different but also sometimes maybe you don't have access economic access or you know you can't get into a doctor who will prescribe you meds or whatever and so then what like they can't be the only solution and also pills don't teach skills there's a lot that I still struggle with even taking meds and yeah I personally do get that like moment of feeling my med my meds kick in it feels like my brain comes online and I can focus better and stuff but I still notice like whatever I'm doing when my meds first kick in better be what I want to be doing some next couple hours that's how they work for me that's so good to know I know that's really funny that you're like are you in a place for this okay great go yeah I yeah I took my meds once and like I usually take okay I usually take my meds go back to sleep for half an hour wake up I'm still a little groggy I so I'll meditate for half an hour and then I do my workout and then I'll go about my day or whatever but like one day I was like oh how I lazy morning I'll sleep a little bit longer and then I'll meditate and then you know and then I'll work out and then I'll take a bubble bath well my meds kicked in my eyes in that bubble bath and I was like put something on on Twitter so for the next four hours I was working in my bubble bath because I couldn't stop focusing long enough to get out of the tub it was hilarious so yes oh my god that's amazing I completely get that that's so funny to be like this is where I am now this is where you can find me but you're you're you're on task sometimes sometimes you just your brain is just like and now I want to work and you're like all right we're gonna roll with this right that way oh my god so if you do take medication don't expect the first dose to be the most revelatory moment of your life it might be it might not also if you're washing down a stimulant with your juice in the morning maybe don't so apparently acidic foods and vitamin C can break down your meds quickly and make them less effective also if you're having side effects like anxiety or jitters you can try taking stimulant with plenty of protein instead of a breakfast of like two and a half gross cow cookies how did you know so before you dismiss a drug's efficacy just look at how you're taking it and then of course ask your doctor and if you can't afford your incredibly expensive name brand only byvants well I did find that its maker tequila has the help at hand program and that can offer financial assistance if you're broke or if you have shitty insurance so I will link that on my website or you can search help at hand tequita is the pharmaceutical company they are not sponsoring any of this trust me now reddit ADHDers also have tips aplenty so you know what to ask your doctor but what if your doctor is less helpful than stranger with the username cupcake's for 2016 well Renee professional ADHD coach ways in do you ever have to coach people on like how to find the right clinician for them back before I started working in in this sector I worked in major health insurance public and private and I think one of the most important things for patients to know and they so very rarely seem to know it is that a clinician is an expert you've hired to work for you to partner with you in your health care they are not your boss they are an expert and you should certainly respect their expertise but if you feel like that person is trying to take a position of authority over you or that they don't listen to you or respect your ideas like they know the human body you know your own body so you know what's normal for you and what's not and you need clinicians who to the best of their ability are able to hear you and respect you and take that into consideration and if you feel like you're not a respected member of your own health team you're with the wrong clinician and it's time to start looking for a new one. If I know that's excellent advice so I hope you are feeling accepting of the folks in your life with ADHD or yourself or maybe your kids I don't want my kids if I have them to feel like they have to that they have to fit that mold that again that doesn't mean there there is like a way other side of the fence which is like people should just accept us as we are and we should just be able to do whatever we want like nobody gets to just do whatever they want like we still again live in a society we live in a society we still have to interact with other people and if our behavior is hurting somebody we do have to be accountable for that and we have to try and figure out ways to not do that it should be a collaborative effort it shouldn't be like just overcome your ADHD and like then you'll be okay it should be like okay you are already you know as as as as Bernan Brown would put it you are already worthy of love and belonging and now let's help you you know let's help you function in society and also let's help society function better to accommodate people who are neurodivergent you know right which is like so many creative people you're welcome everyone yeah there's so many people I know who are creators who the whole reason why they went into creative fields is because the idea of like going to the same place every day and and having to be on top of organizational tasks is overwhelming but being in the run of a plate for three months that they have to do really intensely is like something they can do an interest in you know so there's so much there is so much that the ADHD brain even undiagnosed is such a huge part of what society is that to to discourage that and people would be such a loss some famous people you know with ADHD I'll just Emma Watson and Simone Biles astronaut Scott Kelly Michael Phelps so launch Knowles Paris Hilton has it Dave Grohl Liesa Wing will I am and Channing Tatum who I like to call Stalker Channing Tatum O'Neill Patrick Harris and Ford people have also speculated that Albert Einstein had ADHD and according to an article in Smithsonian magazine one historical hyphenate had a penchant to procrastinate and abandon artworks who wasn't Leonardo de Frickin Vinci experts thinking at ADHD also according to one headline those with ADHD might make better entrepreneurs and that is from the magazine entrepreneur 80 years are three times as likely to start their own business or it sounds more impressive 300% more likely to start their own business really yeah and how do you organize it though the the the problem is if your business is a success than you hire people and then you're like fuck I get a managed people I got to start their own business I didn't say like actually remember to pay their taxes like that's where we need to make the world a little more accessible for ADHD right that's where you hire people who are really good at that stuff shout out to Susan Hale who's been my friend for 20 years and my bookkeeper for two and it's the best money I've ever spent I love you Susan what would I do without you also giant lesson from me your dad don't beat yourself up if you need help because without the team who makes allergies there would be no allergies so if you have a venture maybe you're afraid to start ask yourself are you afraid of failure or are you maybe afraid of success because if something succeeds that's just more work and what if you can't handle it so just trust that with success comes more resources like perhaps a bookkeeper or outsourcing your laundry if you have to as Renee highly recommends it becomes very like result driven right and that's why I was saying that's how you know nobody cares what you have they care what you're doing because you produce the result they want it in a good grade they didn't care what you had to do to make that result happen and if you're looking for some great resources for coping with ADHD in school you can check out Dr. Barclays excellent book taking charge of ADHD the fourth edition the complete authoritative guide for parents and I've kept these episodes geared more toward adults because there are a lot of resources through school systems that free range adults just don't have and patron sage Alexander wrote in some I rhetorical why is it the 99% of articles about how to cope with ADHD are for parents about their children so much of the discourse around ADHD is about kids like I just want to not get fired I need to not have to file bankruptcy I need to be able to like oh my god when I have a young adult with ADHD I was a mess I had like $1,500 in parking tickets my car was always getting towed I was always five minutes off of being fired like it is no way for a person to live so having ADHD is a mix of strategies possibly medication workarounds and not throwing your whole soul under the bus because you've got some overdue library fees I personally suspect that library fees are what keep the lights on in the library so well done also hello librarians I'm sorry about the way fees I love you I just am at the point where like there's so many practical strategies out there now and there's a ton on my channel and I think they're so important because we do still live in a world that's very near typical and at the same time while we're learning these strategies we have to remember like the goal is not to get perfect out all these strategies and then and then not have ADHD anymore like maybe the ultimate goal is the same as the ultimate goal it should be for anybody which is to live a life in line with your values in which you are valued for who you are and what you contribute and you can contribute it and you are empowered to do so I still had it in my head that like there was a perfect right there was there was an end goal of like eventually I just won't struggle with ADHD at all like I'll be so empowered I'll know all the things all the strategies I'll find the magic tools like I just won't struggle with this at all anymore and it was humbling to realize no I will and there was a period of imposter syndrome in between where it's just like oh god like everybody's looking at me like I have the answers and like I'm not even using these answers and like what if I don't have the answers and I'm just like okay no this isn't just me it's just that there there isn't the answer nobody has the answer because like there isn't the answer it's really up like anything in life it's complicated it's going to be a complex collaboration of I need to learn strategies to support my brain and I need to advocate for myself and the world needs to like do a better job of accommodating your adversity to use a kind of a weird example if you think of somebody who's in a wheelchair you're not going to be like well I I can't walk so therefore somebody should carry me everywhere like that's not okay but also if I get a wheelchair I shouldn't also have to build all of my own ramps right right yeah and so that's kind of where I'm falling right now and I know this is like really meta instead of like practical strategies but I think it's important no I think we should have our you know our version of wheelchair like we should have our strategies and tools that we can use but we also need to live in a world where we're allowed to use them and that we're supported in using them and it's not completely falling to us or even we're looked at like we're weird right because sometimes there's this this weird thing where it's like okay like it's not okay that you get distracted in meetings okay cool like let me bring a fidget so that I can not get distracted in meetings like let me bring my knitting so that I can stay focused well that's not okay either okay like what do you want for me you know you're like I you get a sweater out of it at the end of it come on I'll make you a sock just right also I'm paying attention now so welcome so if you have executive function issues you may find that something soothing or exciting while you work is helpful like even chewing gum at the computer really helps some folks to the point that schools make exceptions for kids who focus better chewing gum I work better with music my pandora use still going strong Jared watches action movies on one monitor while he works on the other and I find that astounding he says it's like having a white noise machine to sleep I'm like okay sure what what about fidget choice one way you can support a creator with ADHD is go to Renee shop at black girl last keys dot com she has them for sale there she also sells water bottles or protein shake bottles with a built-in pill organizer and shirts that say guard your yes with your life she has worksheets to and workbooks on topics like 100 no cook meal ideas and learning how to dress well with ADHD she's got another on cleaning and of course she's a professional ADHD coach and via her patreon you can hear her podcast at any subscription level from more tips now jayla a neuroscientist studying distractibility offers some wisdom as well having breaks really helps like see the other weekend that try not to work too much if possible and I think by having those breaks and in there when I am working I feel like I'm a lot more productive with the after remind myself is that the work honestly will never stop and so if I don't get to this email today or if I don't you know get this part of the data analyze today like I'll have something to do tomorrow then so I'm trying to take it one day at a time I love this little device called the time timer and you can use it for the Pomodoro method which is it turns out is how quantum ontology guest Dr Adam Becker wrote his freaking book what is real the unfinished quest for the meaning of quantum physics and yes this acclaimed astrophysicist has ADHD so I went back to his 2018 episode which is fantastic and I pulled that part for us what was the process of writing the book like so first it was abject terror after I got the contract because I you know like after I I finished partying right I was I realized I was on the hook for 90,000 words and I'd never published anything longer than about 3000 so that was completely fucking terrifying I had a history earlier on in my career of having difficulty getting work done and getting it done on time or getting it finished by that point you know moved past that I finished my my degree and what not but I still have this mental image of myself as someone who had difficulty getting work done on time and so it was really extra scared but I decided okay the only way that I'm going to get through this is if I plan it and then just only pay attention to whatever is in front of me because I can't write 90,000 words but I can write 600 words a day and if I do that for a while eventually I'll have 90,000 so so yeah so I outlined it and I went over the outline with my publisher and they like the outline of course it changed right no no plans to arrive contact with the editor so for each chapter I'd outline the chapter and then I just sort of work through the outline and write a really shitty first draft and try to do 600 words a day and what I do is I would do 50 minutes on and 10 minutes off and in the 10 minutes off I wouldn't look at anything with a screen and I wouldn't read any non-fiction I would read exclusively novels and that really helped my brain work because I found that if I didn't read it all I couldn't write because if there's nothing going in nothing's going to come out right other allergies episodes in which we discuss succeeding with ADHD include the Corbethanatology episode with Dr. Kaley Swift maritime archaeology with Chanel Zap thermophysiology with Dr. Shane Campbell-Staten, Neuroendocrinologist Dr. Daniel Fowl talks about that and molecular biology with Dr. Ravenbaxter oh and using a timer for tasks Jela had a great tip which I have used every day since our interview one thing that we're discussing is you know just telling yourself okay I'm just going to write for 10 minutes today or 15 minutes um setting a timer and then you'll be surprised how much you know you can actually get done in that time period and then once you started sometimes I'll you know do the 15 minutes and then I'm like in the groove and so I can continue to like write for longer and part of success is knowing yourself knowing how you thrive and what works for you and what doesn't work for you Renee zero did on that and I love her you have to develop self-awareness you have to develop the ability to know what you need and how to say no to what you don't need and to not be open to suggestions that you already know are not going to be what you need and I know you know what I'm talking about because don't you love it when someone says try a notebook and you tell them you've got a million damn notebooks that's not going to work and how offended they are by that and at this point I'm just like what kind of fool do you think I am I have gone to college I went to Penn State I built my own business I went to a doctor I take a stimulant medication that is a pain in the ass to fill as we've established and you think I could have resolved all of this by walking down to the fucking dollar store and buying a notebook you think 75 cents was going to solve a problem that I've spent thousands of dollars in countless hours to resolve you think that was the solution you think I couldn't have done of that on my own you're like wait a second should I try a pen to I don't want to miss out on the opportunity to race do you have any other wonderful wonderful ideas can you can you write the pharmaceutical companies I don't want to forget oh wait now my good friend happened along and you know what they told me to just do it I'm going to try that really you just do the thing that you can't do it's probably not the way of peace if you like peace that's not allowed to the way of peace I'm just like now no not at this point like it used to really hurt my feelings when people would do that because it was like oh you you think that I lack the intelligence and the wherewithal to come up with basic solutions to my own problems like wow how could you think that of me and at this point I'm just like you don't know anything about what you're talking about go away yeah well you know that's just like your opinion man so well the bullet journal or the bujo was developed by someone with ADHD it's not for everyone I myself use a half sheet sized ring binder so I can take things out and reshuffle them because I just spent years staring at a pile of 20 journals they'd only had like the first seven pages used now in case you want to see my binder am a dog I'm going to be doing a patreon live stream on sunday march six at noon pacific but also binders and dogs maybe they're not for everyone are there certain little tips or tricks or major systemic things like just I have to sleep nine hours a night or something that you would advise people to try I think sleep and eating consistently are some of the areas that we struggle the most in and I am not a good person when I haven't slept like I don't even want to be around me when I haven't gotten out sleep I think looking at those those basic tenets of self care to begin with like are you sleeping are you eating can you find your stuff do you have enough clean clothing are you able to keep foods in the house that you can eat consistently like all of those are areas that you want to take a close look at at some point in trying to learn how to manage my ADHD like at first it was about finding out what the symptoms are and eliminating them like how do I get rid of the impulsivity and distractability and etc as I learned more it became more so like never mind getting rid of the symptoms I can't but here's what I need to accomplish I need to eat I need to manage my finances I need to be able to get a decent night's sleep how do I support myself in my impulsivity in my distractability how do I keep myself redirected it it's a very subtle switch but it's an important one because trying to control the symptoms is you fighting yourself trying to accomplish the things you need to accomplish puts the focus back where it belongs because quite honestly if you've got your life managed do you really care if you have ADHD yeah does it matter at that point like no one cares how distractable I am if I'm meeting deadlines and showing up places on time and being a halfway decent person like maybe I can't accomplish good every day but I've got a pretty decent emotional regulation right nobody cares whether we have ADHD or not they care about the things that they see as negative qualities irresponsible I hate the irresponsibility trope that people try to throw at us we're actually not irresponsible people buying large at least the people I've met have not been like when they say well what do you mean I'm not irresponsible irresponsible people do not care if they're meeting the requirements because they're irresponsible think about this truly wild irresponsible people you know like to not give a shit is their brand they do not care if they're disappointing they do not care if they're not able to meet the standards that is true irresponsibility how many actual irresponsible people do you know yeah it's such a good point and there's so much effort to for people who do have ADHD if it's a matter of thought that counts or effort that counts that the effort it takes to do certain things is I feel like multiple times that what maybe some neurotypical people might experience and that effort is there there's just it almost like costs more energetically to do things you know yes absolutely you know I was talking to a friend of mine who is a psychologist she was saying that one question that is on intakes about this and one question that seems to really resonate with a lot of patients is the do you feel like you're driven by a motor and how much that can fuel burn out that feeling of you always always always have to go go go to make up for things you know do you feel like that something that resonates with you too or do you have to like try to turn your motor to idle at all oh mine doesn't have an idle button that's broken so yes I definitely can identify with it what does Renee want to shout from a bullhorn at the top of a mountain I wish people would learn what executive function is and then understand that what they think of as executive function is not a choice like everyone has it in their in their mind that you can if it's important to you you will remember it if it means enough to you you will find a way to be on time but as a person with ADHD if you don't have the skills and the tools to put in place to assist you in the places that you need help it doesn't matter how important something is or how meaningful it is like there was someone who I was very close with who lost their job and filed with unemployment and was turned down and they needed to go to the appeal hearing the appeal hearing and getting that money made the difference between whether or not they would be able to keep their apartment they lost their apartment because they forgot to go to the meeting that's not a choice whether or not you remember something has nothing to do with how important it is or what the consequences are it just doesn't when you remove the intent from it a lot more of these things become less frustrating for everyone involved because I think that's where a lot of the conflict comes in relationships and communication after a while a person starts to wonder like are you are you kidding me it's interesting to the way that our culture is so split where we get this messaging about if someone doesn't prioritize you cut them out of your life like if someone doesn't respect you if he's not that into you cut them out move on you know and then at the same time it doesn't allow for a lot of understanding of motives behind things it's just I think it's really tough sometimes without awareness to really understand what's behind someone's actions you know the people who actually really love you like a lot of those other things are based in performance did you show up for me did you do the thing I asked you to do the people who actually love you at your core and at your essence will also present themselves my best friend has been my best friend since I was 18 years old I wasn't diagnosed with ADHD until seven years later think about she had seven to ten years of me never being on time so she's had to adjust herself because she would always just plan on me being late like I'm not going to fight with Renee about being late I've watched her be late a million times I don't know why she's late but she's late I'm gonna tell her a different time so that she becomes on time like that those those are the kind of those are the only kinds of friends I want in my life who see who I am and go how do we have this relationship with this person being the way that they are because that's what I do for my friends and I don't think it's unreasonable to expect reciprocity in that way and it's like look if you genuinely cannot deal with someone's lateness it offends you to that degree no one's holding you hostage stop being friends with them we both have to try you have to give grace I have to get to a place where I can do it better and if that's not good enough then we can't be friends you can't be friends with everybody in the world that's all right no we have feelings either like if this isn't working for you let's not be friends we can respect each other we can still have love for each other but that like close friendship might just not be for us again I mentioned this book in an aside for part one but the ADHD effect on marriage by Melissa Orlov super helpful for me personally even though Jared and I both read it before we were ever married or engaged and when we were in a phase of our relationship where we broke up every couple of months since that book we haven't broken up once is that amazing trust me it is so his diagnosis and learning about it was absolutely life changing maybe life saving and we had a little audio issue here but as Renee says Melissa really brought a lot to light didn't she Melissa really brought a lot to light didn't she yeah it just reframed so much that you think are either you know what we would call character flaws or personality traits or choices and once you can see certain patterns I saw my husband in a completely different light and I also because he hadn't been diagnosed he would do things that were really dangerous or really sketchy where I'm like well what where's his judgment and knowing now that he was always like yeah to be writing his motorcycle it at 100 miles an hour and you know almost killing himself on it and if you're the kind of person who looks for security you're like how the hell did I find up married to fucking evil can evil like what's going on here what are you doing as far as why I do what I do there are three mysteries to life that's where we came from why we do what we do and where we're going to go Johnny Carson doesn't know they answered any of those three things neither the evil can you do so it's a question the campaign answer a lot of patrons wanted to know about relationships like ADHD partners marathon it and Marcus Elliott and Natalie and Jessica has videos like ADHD and relationships let's be honest and how to help someone who has ADHD one great tip is don't parent your partner help support them where they need it but remember you're an equal team who bring different things to the table now can she fix all of our relationships no pressure Jenny Low Roads Sally Amara Daniel Kim Anika all wanted to know how to support people who have ADHD or how to ask for support so that they're not judged yeah I think remember that really the biggest thing is that it's not a moral defect it's not that they're lazy or not trying hard enough or a bad person or a bad student or a bad friend it's that their brain works differently they are on a different operating system their brain functions differently the reward pathways are different their perception of time is different their emotional regulation is different their attention regulation is different it all functions differently and so it's it's not that they need to be spoken to like they're a child they're treated like they're a child for some things we need support accommodations just to even be able to access it so I'm really good at my job and sometimes it wouldn't look like because I struggled to figure out where you know a folder is for the thing that like even things that I do on a regular basis I'm like how do I do this again like I have really basic basic struggles and it's so heartbreaking because often ADHDers are trying harder than their neurodipical peers and they're just facing more obstacles but because those obstacles are invisible it doesn't look like that if somebody's stuck on the freeway and there are a bunch of cars in front of them you'd be like well yes obviously they're not moving because there are a bunch of cars in front of them but if somebody's stopped on the freeway and there's nobody else on the road that you can see you're like why aren't you moving do you not care about this thing you're trying to get to like just step on the gas and you don't see all of the cars in front of them right you don't see the obstacles so you think that they're not there and so you make very natural assumption that like it's that they don't care or it's that they're not trying when that's really really not the case and so understanding what it is that they're dealing with and what's getting in their way because I promise you something is something is if they're not doing something there's a reason for that if I'm in an accounting job and I cannot stand numbers spreadsheets anything like yeah I can use a lot of strategies to get my brain to do that job but really a better option get a different job is a terrible job for my brain it just is right and so like recognizing when it makes sense to change the environment and when it makes sense to you know oh well like if I take meds I can be a fantastic writer if I don't take meds I can't write but I'm a fantastic writer so it makes sense for me to take meds so people out there who loves someone with ADHD learning more about it who helps so much and giving some extra grace gives you so much in return neuroscientist and ADHD sibling Jela agrees the symptoms sometimes like as a kid growing up sometimes it would be a lot I would think sometimes with my brother but understanding that you know this isn't something that he like chooses to do on purpose is just you know a lot deeper than that and I think me being more understanding and then actually trying to become aware and like more educated on the stuff that he might be struggling with I think helps our relationship because I better understand what it is that he's going through or dealing with on a daily basis so I think that's probably the best advice is just try to be understanding and accommodating to people in your life that you know do have to battle with this so accepting others also big message from Jessica you ready this is big that's right through the end it's big it's good I can tell you what I'm obsessed with right now which is the idea of the idea of us being okay as is because I think that those of us who are a neurodivergent group our whole life is being constantly corrected on our neurodivergent behaviors and learning that they are not okay it's not okay to get really excited and talk really loudly about something you're excited about it you know because a lot of times in situations where it's it's not appropriate to right it's it's not okay to get out of your chair and move around it's not okay to interrupt all somebody's talking it's not okay to you know and a lot of these things are things that that we do have to learn contextually to to be better about in general like all kids have to learn you know when it's their turn and how to share and and things that that people with ADHD might have might have trouble with but we almost learn to train it out of ourselves entirely we we learn it's not okay to fidget when actually that that fidgeting can help us focus it can bring down our anxiety and it can give our floating attention something to do so that it doesn't float all over the room and take us with it but there's almost this pressure when you have ADHD to erase your ADHD completely to be neuro typical as if that's the goal right it's a terrible goal to have but it's one that that we almost all seem to on some level because it seems to be the message that we've gotten our whole lives like you'd be so you know successful if you could just you you have so much potential if you would just you know put your nose to the grindstone just sit down and do it as if it's as if it's a choice as opposed to this is just how it brings work and so a big thing that I'm really obsessed with right now is accepting people as is accepting that I have ADHD accepting that the person I work with is autistic accepting that and then going instead of going how do we make them be less that go given that now where do we go from here because we still live in a society right and we still have goals that we want to accomplish we still want things we still want to be empowered we want to be able to do the things we want to do we want the people we care about to be able to to grow up happy and healthy and do the things that they want to do for speaking to literally one million brains for your job what would you say is something that people wouldn't know is is either difficult or even just annoying about it I don't know if people realize how much it breaks my heart to read the comments sometimes like I will sit and read comments and cry or read people's stories and sometimes I can't even respond because I just don't have a band with that day but I will read these stories and I will just sit there and cry because there's so much there's so much pain out there like people are struggling so hard and and up against a world that like thinks they're not trying and that that's really hard to read sometimes and it's it's also what motivates me but it's it's really tough because people are asking me for answers that I don't have like there's 12 year old saying like my my parents don't believe ADHD is real or they won't they won't take me to a doctor what do I do and I don't know what to tell them because there's no good answer right and like until the world understands ADHD better until we overcome these these stereotypes and the you know this idea that ADHD is a joke or not real or not that big a deal like until we get past that or the moral idea the more the idea that ADHD is this moral failing until we really understand as a society ADHD well enough to move past that this pain is going to continue of people feeling like it's their fault that they're struggling and trying so hard not to and being punished or shamed for it and it absolutely breaks my heart ADHD brains have a lot to offer the world we tend to be generous funny creative we not only think outside the box we're often not even aware there is a box there's a quote that I love I think is John Steinbeck and now that you don't have to be perfect you can be good no and it can be paralyzing for for people who are near advergent to even want to like go out and try things or interact because we've been corrected so often our whole lives that were like so afraid to mess up you know we we always get trained into being perfectionist because we keep getting corrected and we keep being told like that's wrong how you're doing this is wrong this is wrong this is wrong so eventually we're like don't do anything wrong don't do anything like that's almost a mantra like don't fuck up don't fuck up don't fuck up don't fuck up right like that's also what we go through but like I was having a conversation with somebody the other day and realized like that's a that's a terrible way to live like just constantly being afraid of messing up because then you don't want to take the shot right yeah and what I'm trying so hard to do and what I'm hoping that others can start to join me in doing if we're thinking about perfectionism we're thinking about like perfectionism is making all the shots you take right but if we shift to thinking about winning the game we have to take a lot of shots and we're gonna miss some and that's okay so take the shot ask brilliant people basic questions and look at that you just may understand yourself and others better so give yourself grace and accept all the really creative and wonderful ways your brain works because it's great you can try to tailor a life that fits you if you can you can surround yourself with people who understand you and who don't expect perfection you can work in small the find chunks of time take breaks and don't be afraid of imperfection or success and I hope this two-parter has helped some of you just if nothing else just know you're not alone you're not a fuck out you're special you're different it's cool and everyone struggles with executive function to some degree everyone and our attention is so much more fractured than ever I mean we can work 24-7 and some employees expect that of us and we live in a gig economy where one job isn't enough to afford a house so next week allergies life hacks for everyone I'm thrilled about it so find theologist though from this episode at the links on my website at alliwar.com slashology slash ADHD that'll be linked in the show notes Renee Brooks is a black girl lost keys everywhere find Jessica McCabe at how to ADHD.com and her handles are how to ADHD Jala Osborne is on Twitter her handles in the show notes and we are at allergies on Twitter and Instagram I'm Ali Ward with one L on both thank you Aaron Talbert for admitting the allergies podcast Facebook group with help from Shannon and Bonnie of the podcast you are that thank you to Susan Hale for bookkeeping and merch and no well for scheduling and so much behind the scenes thank you Emily White of the wordery for making our professional transcripts as fast as we possibly can thank you Caleb Patton for bleeping them Zeke Rodriguez Thomas of Mind Jam Media helps make the small of these episodes they come out every few weeks Steven Ray Morris helps out too and giant huge thanks to the muse and the editor of this and the one and only Jared sleeper of Mind Jam media for laboring so hard the last few weeks on these giant episodes with like five guests at hours of content and a lot of work and of course for working through the hard parts of life to understand each other better fucking super glad we listened to that audiobook and we were like oh wow we're not assholes holy smokes boy howdy this rules Nick Thorburn made the theme music and if you stick around to the end of the episode I tell you a secret and this week's secret is just straight up that I have been feeling super weird about being like do I have ADHD after all these years what if I don't what if I just am lazy or whatever and so it's very very fresh for me and I'm still understanding it myself makes a lot of sense sure also grappling with looking at myself in a whole different way so a hella fresh is what I'm getting at for probably a lot of people and a little 2025 update for me so I've been told that I do have ADHD I've also been told that I do not which is frustrating and I did try medication after these episodes for it I tried to buy a Vance and I was somewhat more productive but my anxiety was not good so unfortunately that did not work for me and my doctor thinks some of my focus and procrastination is also rooted in some fear of messing up some kind of compulsive avoidance of things that I could bungle so over the last three years I've learned a lot about what works for me and either way that using fear and shame on myself is not the vibe it doesn't work well and it's not sustainable it can never be the vibe so instead of admonishing myself with like oh why do I get things done at the last minute and having that be my narrative instead I say to myself at the beginning I'm a person who does things at the first minute and then I try to get tasks done as soon as they hit my eyeballs even if they aren't perfect so I try to ask myself can I do this at the first minute I get it most of the time I can so that is helping me a lot it's taking down this fear of it needs to be perfect I just think do it at the first minute I'm a person that does things at the first minute great also I love this device called a brick it's like 50 bucks it locks your phone out of whatever you deem your most distracting apps and then to un-brick it you have to physically get up and go to the fridge or wherever you have stuck your brick and unlock those apps on your phone it's genius it's a lifesaver that little bit of friction makes you go yeah that's right past me did not want me falling down a scroll hole best 50 bucks ever get brick.app is the website they are not sponsors I had to pay for mine I've gotten them as gifts for people but I just like them a lot so yeah give yourself grace keep trying to find out what works for you and if you do try medications or other therapies check in a lot with your doctor to see if it's working as it should but wow one thing I look back on is all of the tricks and workarounds and ways that I tried to make work easier for me and I thought I was being fussy I realized wow those were actually adaptations I was making to keep myself on track and I abandoned a lot of them because I thought I seemed uptight using them and I was like oh no those were keeping me alive so I'm reevaluating a lot of the ways that I I'm just reevaluating a lot of the ways that I work anyway um vulnerability self-reflection okay you're great look at that we did two episodes on ADHD oh we did it okay provide Hello, I'm a Mac, and I'm a PC. Maxi!