Staving Season

We are recording this edition of 32 Thoughts, the podcast with very heavy hearts. We're still in shock, still trying to make sense of what has happened. John Garrett passed away suddenly at the age of 74. He was in the middle of working the Utah Vegas series for SportsNet. No one has cheered to many. The stories that have come out over the last few days have been very heartwarming. We all have the common theme that paints the picture of someone you just want to be around, someone that made you feel good. Dom, I know for myself and for you, John Garrett was part of the soundtrack of Our Childhoods, Growing Up on the West Coast, and you being the resident Vancouverite of the three of us. Why don't you go first? What's been on your mind? Thanks, Kyle. Each brought brilliance, warmth, and joy to the game we all love. Whether it was stopping pucks for the Canucks or painting vivid pictures from the broadcast booth alongside John and Murph, he had a rare gift. You made hockey feel alive, personal, and fun, even on the toughest nights of Canucks hockey. But what truly set Cheej apart was his kindness. He was a delightful human being. Generous of spirit, quick with a laugh, humble in victory, gracious always. Collie's called him one of the best of us and someone who treated everyone with the same respect and warmth. Whether it was a fellow broadcaster, a player, or a fan, his authenticity, his humor, and his genuine love for the game, and for people shone through every interaction. Cheej touched countless lives. And for generations of Canucks fans, he was comforting. He was a familiar voice that turned hockey nights into cherished memories. He endeared himself not to just Vancouver, but to hockey fans across the country with his insight, storytelling, and his unmistakable love for ketchup. Young fans grew up wanting to be like him and lifelong supporters felt like they knew him personally. He brought light, connection, and joy to so many people, leaving an imprint far greater than any highlight reel could ever capture. And though his voice is now silent, the kindness he shared and the memories he created will echo for years to come. Cheej was more than a legend in the booth. He was a good man who made the world around him a little brighter. God bless him and his family and his friends. Beautifully said, Dom. I loved what John Shorthouse said on the air Tuesday night as part of the pregame show. That was excellent, by the way, everyone that shared a little bit there, that he was the captain of that group. It was a big deal, certainly for me, like those years living in Ottawa, when the Canucks would come to town and with it came the Canucks Broadcast Crew. Because those were the ones that I would have watched and listened to more than any other growing up in the part of the country that I did. So getting to go for the odd dinner or a Coors light with Cheej and the rest was such a highlight and everything you've heard about him. It was all there to witness and to just soak in anytime I got a chance to be around him, which wasn't a ton, but all worth cherishing. And the sense of humor, the ability to laugh at himself. One night we were out somewhere in downtown Ottawa and the young man that was spinning tunes in the bar, it was not the type of music that John was in favor of. And so he walked over to the little DJ booth with a $20 bill in his hand, pleading with the man to play something different. Of course, all in good nature and fun. But that was very much John. And still trying to make sense of it all here, Elliot. I know you've been asked about him a lot here over the last couple of days. Anything you would like to add here now on the pod? First of all, Dom, I just wanted to say that line about his love for ketchup is fantastically written. That is elite writing. Just a couple of things. Number one, I mentioned this on the radio show today with Matt and Mike Fuda. Are you, Kyle, hotel room, king bed or two doubles? I think you and I both are wired the same. King bed as much as possible. That's the only thing I really care about in a hotel room. I'll say king bed, please, king bed. That's the only thing I really care about. And but John Garrett was always two doubles. And he would get upset if he didn't have two doubles because one of those beds was to throw his suitcase on. It was mandatory. He had two double beds. I think you can put they have these things that these silver things that are wooden things that you can put your suitcase on and open them that way. But no, he is not like that. And he had to have two double beds, one for him and one for his suitcase. But, you know, the story that, you know, we told at the beginning of the show. So Matt Marstrom is one of our producers and he is he's a day one sportsman employee. He's been there 27 years, which is one reason that Matt looks like he's about 275 years old. But he is was really close to Garrett. He was really devastated. Like a lot of other employees were. And he told me on Monday that every year, whenever John came to Toronto to work on the panel during the playoffs, the first night they shared a bucket of KFC, who I forgot is one of our sponsors, but they shared a bucket. It was tradition. The first night he showed up for the playoffs, it was bucket of KFC. So a bunch of us who worked here heard that story and said, you know what, we're going to get a bucket of KFC for Matt Marstrom on Tuesday. That's what we're going to get for him. And the amazing thing about that, Kyle, was when I so we work on the main floor and the control room is on the eighth floor. And when I got out of the elevator on the eighth floor and I was carrying the bags with the buckets in them, the people who saw me, they knew exactly what it was about. They understood the lore. They knew the story and you've just seen the look in their face like it. It just meant something. Even though it was for Matt Marstrom and he could share it with everybody because we ordered two buckets. We could share it with everybody. All the people who saw the KFC, they understood it. And you could tell by their reaction, like the four of us on the panel who bought them, we kind of did it for Matt, but everybody felt it. It was nice. I mean, out of a horrible situation, it was a nice moment to see the way the staff reacted to see two bags or two buckets of KFC. And I'll say this. Kyle, you know how important the people, the technical staff, the production staff are to our jobs. We can't do it without them. And the people who've been here for a long time, especially when John used to work more in the studio, they loved them. Like you could tell they really loved them. So it was good to do something for them that made them feel a little bit better in a brutal time. One of the best teams in the business for so many years. Of course, it was Short House and Garrett and Murphy, but also behind the scenes, Greg Shannon, Greg Brechel, Ron Forsythe worked on that show for a long time and some others out in that western part of the country. So many hours, so many miles logged, covering the Vancouver Canucks for Sportsnet. Yeah, another good one gone too soon. So we're sending our love to his wife Sharon, his daughters, Christa and Sarah, and the grandchildren as well. John Garrett, you will be missed. Welcome to 32 Thoughts The Podcast presented by your Canadian Toyota dealers and the 100% electric BZ. Available now during Red Tag Days. Dom, Elliot, Kyle back with you on this Wednesday, Tuesday night. Two teams were fighting to save their season. Both of them did. We will begin in Edmonton, Elliot, where for all the conversation the last couple of days of all the hockey they have played the last three years adding up, were they too banged up to hang with the Anaheim Ducks any further in this series. It was not the story on Tuesday night. Maybe the Connor McDavey wardrobe change walking into Rogers Place played some sort of role. Either way, the Oilers came right out of the gate hot, three goals in the first 10 minutes, they chased Lucache Dostal, and unlike any of the three Anaheim victories in this series, it was a lead they did not relinquish. You knew, right Kyle, anything shy of amputation and Connor McDavey was going to play in this game, correct? Totally. I didn't think there's any real doubt without having no knowledge. Yes. But he didn't center his own line, which says to you that there's legitimately something here. The fact they even said it was a game time decision, like they could have just said, no, he's playing tonight, just didn't skate this morning. But it just says to you there's something really difficult he's dealing with. But, you know, I couldn't imagine any situation, like I said, besides amputation, where you didn't think he was going to play tonight, and he was brilliant. And, you know, the thing too is that you knew Anaheim was going to push them in this game. They cut a couple of great chances after they fell down in the first period, and he held them. They got to within three to one and Ingram held on. At times, there were nervous moments, but that was by far the best game Edmonton has played in the series. And I really like Kevin's point at the end of the broadcast about how mentally that's not a draining win, because you had a lot of control in the third period, and you could lock it down. Now, to me, game six is the real big one. And, you know, the concern I have for the Oilers, first of all, they haven't played well in either of the two games in Anaheim. I think that the Docs will feel because they're young and they're kind of confident. I think they'll feel good about their chances in a game six at home where they've already won twice. But Kyle, the thing to me that is most concerning for the Oilers is that, you know, because guys make it through games okay, it doesn't mean they're available for the next one. Like, obviously, McDavid's really battling something here, and Dickinson has kind of been on off, on off the whole series, right? And he's also really important to them. So the biggest question I have is just, is everybody on Edmonton who's banged up, how are they going to feel on the off day Wednesday? How are they going to feel on the game day Thursday? Because this is the one. Like, if you're Edmonton and you drag this back to Northern Alberta for game seven, you're going to feel really good. The next one is the one because Anaheim at home, I don't care that game five was totally forgettable for them. They're going to believe that they can win that game. They're going to say we've won twice at home and we can do it again. Game five, great job by the Oilers. This is the one that is the real stand. This is where you've got to go there. You know, McDavid and Dry-Cidal played together. They looked fantastic. You know, Knoblock made the decision to go back to Ingram. You know, I obviously didn't think Jari was that bad at all. Like, someone said to me, did you think the winning goal was a bad goal? I said, I've banged in off as a defenseman. How many, you know, Edmonton scored two like that in the series. I don't know. I was impressed he even got as much of it as he did. But they say, no, he's our guy and we're going with our guy and Ingram delivered for the coach too. You know, the one thing I wonder about and Kyle, I know they're going to go with them. I mean, I think they're going to go with them. But Dostal has not been himself in April. In the regular season in April, he had an 836 save percentage and a goals against average of 3.8. Right now in the playoffs of any goal, he's played at least two games. He's got a 4.32 goals against average and he's got a save percentage of 864. Okay. So the save percentage, the only goalie who's worse is Lukanin and the goals against average, he's got the worst one. And you know, who so was solid Dostal's your guy. You've won a lot when, you know, this was the 12th time this year he's given up a goal in the first shot and there's seven and five in those games. And he's made big saves when it mattered later in the games. But part of me, I think, I don't think they're like, I'd be shocked if they didn't play him in game six. But Kyle, I think internally the Ducks have got to be wondering what is going on here because he's a much better goalie than this, much better. And as part of it too, all right, you make the change and does that give off some sort of message of panic if now you're going away from the guy that has been your guy all year long and suddenly it's Hussos net going forward. It's an interesting one. It's a surprising one as you say. You know, it wasn't that long ago we were over in Italy saying, boy, would I not want to face this guy in a quarter final game in Canada nearly. He almost beat them. Yes, exactly. For all those reasons, it's a bit of a headscratcher that it's been a tough goal for him in this series. I mean, we knew this was the one of the eight in the first round that neither team would have trouble scoring. But again, the early goals against and just as you say, not looking like himself, it's, it's, I think he's, he's been their guy all year. You've got to trust that, that he's got a shut down game in him and what a great opportunity to do it at home in Anaheim and in game number six. Like, you know, it's not, not unlike different scenario, of course, but Nabilah going back to Ingram because he felt down the stretch. That was the guy that they went to in big spots and the style has been that all year for Anaheim. So I bet they keep it that way going forward here. It's also the timing of, by the way, is another great feature that Luke Aziz did with Evan Bouchard. Yeah, he did good pieces. That, that coffee one was really good with Bouchard. Yes. And, and the line, and I'm glad Kelly referred to it back in one of the intermissions of coffee talking about how underrated Bouchard's passing was. And he ends up with three assists here on Tuesday night. And that one play on the four one goal, that was an incredible play from so many different angles. The way he kept it in, the spin of Ramah, the rolling puck, the great pass. But, you know, Bouchard's biggest accomplishment may be getting BX to admit he put him in the top three of his Norse ballot now. Kevin, a complete out about face in three weeks. You know, I'll tell you something that's interesting. So Edmonton, when they lost game four, I was having a conversation with a guy from another team and he was saying to me that one of the things that concerned the most about the Oilers was that he's seen situations where, and we've all seen them, where the Oilers lose and they're furious. And their best players are furious on the bench. They're very active. They're very emotional. You can see their anger and disappointment at situations. And the way that he thought they looked at the end of game four in Anaheim, Kyle, was that he felt they looked a little bit resigned. They weren't as angry as he's seen them before at the end of defeats. And he wondered if they were, they just thought that they were, you know, Florida missed the playoffs this year. They went the final three years in a row. They won twice. Edmonton's also played a lot of hockey. You know, they went to two finals. They've gone far in playoffs. A lot of their guys have played in a lot of big games. And he was just wondering if they were, especially with McDavid being announced as a game time decision, if they were too injured or the same exhaustion that got to Florida got to them. And he was wondering if internally they were just worried they didn't have it this year. Well, you know, I texted him or sorry, he texted me in the end of the game and he goes, well, I guess that answered that question. They still got a lot left and they got a lot of pride. And, you know, like I said, this next one's the big one. I don't think the docks will be phased by this loss. I think they'll understand that, you know, Edmonton was not going to go out easy. This is the mountain for Edmonton to climb right here. This is the one Thursday night, game six in Anaheim. That's the one that Edmonton is going to have to go in and they're going to have to play this kind of game in Anaheim where they control it. Amazingly, they have been out of the first round every year since the 56 game short and season, the Canadian division year where they got swept by Winnipeg in the first round. Every year since they've won at least one series and now trying to keep that streak alive again, game six down in Anaheim. The other team facing elimination here on Tuesday, Elliott with a Boston Bruins who were embarrassed. We talked about how Marco Sturm was at a loss for how his team came out at home in game number four over the weekend. And it was a much different effort from Boston in Buffalo, a town that was ready to explode and celebrate the opportunity to move on to round number two. Went into overtime. David Posternak was the guy on the breakaway, a beautiful set of hands, what a move. But I thought too, Jeremy Swamin, for that look down the bench after he got yanked the other night and yelling at his guys, he looked like somebody that refused, refused for their season end here on Tuesday. I have to say, Swamin talked on Monday on the off day. He just basically said that we're not up to our standard. But when you do what he did at the end of game number four, Kyle, you have to deliver the next time out. When you go after your teammates like that and you make it public and you make it obvious, even if you're justified, even if everybody agrees with what you did, you have to deliver the next game. I thought the Bruins had a really good first period. And then I thought the ice absolutely tilted in the other direction. And they were all over them and Swamin was fantastic. To me, that's the number one storyline of the game. He saved Boston's season and after doing what he did, he stood up strong. He held his end of the bargain. If you call other people out, you got to deliver yourself. The one thing I was really happy to see, Kyle, was that winning goal was not offside. Was it ever close though? And boy did Posterknock make an incredible play to make sure he didn't go over the line with that back leg. It was so close that there were people tweeting or even texting, so five minutes after the game ended, saying, wasn't that offside? And since it's an automatic review, they would have known about it. So just an incredible play. Kyle, did you see Posterknock in the glass with those Buffalo fans? Oh, I sure did. How could you miss it? Like they're giving him the finger and he's yelling at them. That is what the Stanley Cup playoffs are all about. The great Buffalo fans and the great Posterknock giving it to each other. Great game. I love the shout out Posterknock. Cheer for us and we promise to shoot the puck. It was a great post game interview. Be loud but be patient. Would Jackie Redmond be loud but be patient? You know, I'll say this, I still think Buffalo's in a really good position. They won two games in Boston already. They're good enough to win the third if they have to. The two things that I was concerned about for the Sabres, number one, Oslin getting hurt. He's been really good for them. And the way that Ruff talked about post game, it doesn't look good. He'd just come back from a previous injury. That's a loss for the Sabres if they lose him. He's been a really good forward for them. You know, like I said, I think Ruff has rolled a lot of sevens this year including the decision to go to Alex Lyon as a starter in game three. I wasn't crazy about the move not to dress Josh Norris. That he didn't want to change a winning lineup and he wanted to keep it the way it was. I assume that Norris will go in for Oslin in game number six or Norris will go in anyway. But that was the one thing I was surprised to hear that post game that Norris could have played and they left them out. That's just one thing. I just think in the playoffs, you got to go with your best lineup at all times. That surprised me a bit, but I do concede that generally Ruff has made great lineup decisions. It's interesting. Josh Stone was interviewed by the TNT panel just before the game. He had talked about early in the series those first two games at home. They kind of felt overwhelmed a little bit by just trying to deliver. You know, you got that city, that crowd was all excited and wanting to make good there. It was a lot certainly for guys that had never been through that before, but then they go into Boston and it was like complete. Perfect road type mentality, especially in game four, of course. I don't think that was the case here in game number five. That team, as you say, they got stronger as the game went on and Swamin was just as sensational. The power play finally breaks through for Buffalo, but a lot to like, I think, still for them. They should be feeling great about the opportunity to go into that building in Boston one more time and end their season that way. I should also mention, boy was Bruce Cassidy and it should not be a surprise at all, but he was a treat to listen to on the panel and the one point where he's breaking down. Actually, it was during the the Edmonton-Anaheim game. He did a great breakdown of the Cologne goal and the entry by Anaheim on the power play there and kind of what everyone was thinking and what you're looking at if you're trying to defend it from Edmonton's perspective. So, so good. He's always been somebody that can articulate what he's thinking and get into the nitty gritty, but do it in a way that even you and I can understand. Very good. I know he wants to get back coaching ASAP, but... Yeah, he'll be able to write his own ticket. He's a great coach and if you want to win soon, Bruce Cassidy is a great guy to call. All right. The third game here on Tuesday night, Dallas and Minnesota. So, Elliot, we talked about... Hold on, Kyle. I just thought of it. Instead of Better Call Saul, Better Call Bruce. Oh, I got it. If you want to win, Better Call Bruce. Better Call Bruce. Make a whole ad campaign about it. Starring Bob Odenkirk as Bruce Cassidy. There's a resemblance. I was going to say, that's not a total reach. I could... Oh, it's a reach. Like Bob Odenkirk can't play Bruce Cassidy. Come on, man. I don't know. He's a pretty talented actor. I've got to say. I've got triples of the novice here now. Okay, Dallas, Minnesota. So, we had talked about after four games, the fact that the Dallas Stars had three goals at five on five. It remains that way through five games. It has been a real struggle for Dallas and credit Minnesota. They mucked it up big time, effectively, in terms of not giving them much to play through. But Matt Boldy, hello. Another big goal for them. And Matt Zuccarello, returning to the lineup, was a big thing for Minnesota. That post game with him and Caprizov at the podium together. So good. You can just see, obviously, the respect and admiration those two have for each other. And now being able to share the ice again and connect on the first goal was almost a perfect home to have the wild off and running here in a big game number five. I wonder if Jason Robertson or Miko Rantin or Wyatt Johnston walks into the Dallas room and goes, where is everybody? Because Minnesota is getting a lot more from a lot more people than Dallas sure is. It's not only the five on five scoring, but just any scoring. Like none of the death players are scoring at all and they got more injuries. Now, Gullitson said Rupé Hintz also won't play game six. I think if you're Minnesota, if you really have goals of winning the Stanley Cup this year, you have to win game six. Because every game, this series is so physical and so nasty. Every game, someone's getting hurt. Someone is suffering an injury. And you know who's waiting for you on the other side. Yes. But I mean, it's, you know what, it's not even that to me, Kyle. It's, you know, you got to play Colorado regardless. But if you're Dallas, you have to go seven now to win. You have no choice. But if you're Minnesota, you can win it in six. Even if Minnesota wins it in seven, you're, instead of one more game where you're really risking somebody get hurt because it happens in every game in the series. Now you're giving yourselves two more games where someone can get hurt and they lost Brodeen. Now Brodeen left in crutches in a walking boot. I mean, I've seen stranger things in the past where guys on crutches suddenly show up to play. I'm not exactly expecting a lot of clarity on this, but we'll see what the situation is for Brodeen. But if you're Minnesota and your goal is to really go far, I think you have to do this in six. You know, the last game we said Dallas has proven they can win these series. Minnesota hasn't. Minnesota answered by getting a big game five win where they dominated. Now I think you've got to close it. You have to close it. The one thing that was interesting to me was at the end of the game, I saw Gullitson had Robertson, Johnston and Ranton and out there together. Is there any chance he starts game six with that and puts them together? I mean, you'd think no because the way it's going, you're throwing three lines out there that can't score, right? Nobody can score, but nobody else is scoring. And it was interesting to me that he tried it for the last few minutes and it's obviously desperate. You're down three-one and then three-two. You might as well do it. Is there any chance he goes with it for the full game? I think it's one of those, you start not, but maybe you don't hesitate to make the switch if you're not liking what you're seeing because you're right. Like you've got to find a way to spark something lower down the lineup. It has been, you know, the main attractions for lack of a better term that have been the ones getting it done for Dallas here to this point. And, you know, the point you make about Minnesota and wrap it up in six if you're serious about going deep. It reminds me of circumstances were a little different, but, you know, those, that bubble playoffs between Toronto and Edmonton, right? So the East do the first few rounds in Toronto and then the two teams in the conference final headed Edmonton's way. So Tampa knocked off Boston, I think in five games and they went out to Edmonton early. The other series was Philadelphia, New York. The Islanders were up three to one in that series and then like looked at her in total control and then Philly won game five. They won game six and then the Islanders end up winning in game seven. The next day they have to travel out to Edmonton and then the day after that is game one against Tampa. And John Cooper always said like, we got a total layup there. Like there's no way we weren't winning that first game and they were off and running. They ended up beating the Islanders in six and of course, win the Stanley Cup. As I said, a little bit different circumstances, but it all speaks to that idea of if you got a chance to wrap up a series early, like don't give Colorado a layup because you've gone right to the bitter end with how mean, how physical, how nasty the series and the potential of more damage being done to your lineup. End it when you can. You had a feeling the series was going six minimum from the outset. Now we're here. Get it over the finish line. It's been 11 years since Minnesota last won a series. Time to end that. There are two. I'd say this for Dallas too. You've got another injury now. I'd put Bunting in. Like he hasn't played. I've seen enough of Michael Bunting to know that in a short burst, he brings you energy. I mean, you're going to have to say to him, Michael, you've got to play in control because he could be so wired, he takes a bad penalty, but he can bring you good energy, really good energy. He's out there. He's always causing something. He's a pest. He's annoying. All the things you need in the playoffs to win. And I would be going to him. He'd be my call. Last one before I move on. I doubt you had any surprise or issue with the goalie interference call. Late in the first with the goalie goal. Even boldly admitted that was the right call. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Yeah. No issue here. So back to Minnesota. For game six and a chance for the wild to move on to the second round. Haven't done it since 2015. All right. Before we get to the final thought, some other news around the league. Elliott, you were setting things ablaze on Oilers Now with Bob Stoffer. I saw some of your comments everywhere on the Twitter machine during games on Tuesday night. Yeah. So, you know, here's a couple of things and I'm going to come clean about something at the end. As I've said a couple of times now, I believe there was a lot of misdirection about what the Maple Leafs were asking Matt Sundin to consider. And if you look at Sundin, it's very clear he's proud to be a Maple Leaf. He loves the team. He loves the organization. He's come back several times and spoken up in defense of the players and just talked about how much of a privilege it is to wear that jersey and represent the organization. And it's clear this year that the organization itself felt that that slipped, that the pride in wearing the jersey had fallen. And in addition to restoring their fortunes on the ice, I think they wanted, they felt the pride had slipped and they wanted to find someone at the top who would live and breathe that. And I'm sure at some point in time when this is all over, we'll get a full describing of how they got to Sundin and how they pitched him. But they pitched him on, and my theory is his title should this happen and they're trying to make it happen is he's going to be the vice president of hockey operations. That's my theory. And it took some time and it took some convincing, but I think they're now actually negotiating with him to do it. And, you know, we'll see what it all means. We'll see how it all works. But as I said, Kyle, I believe for some time now, they were talking about a larger role than they were letting on. And I just had to figure out a way to prove it. And that's, that's what I believe is going on right now. Someone said to me on Tuesday that I think some of the people who were interviewed, because Sundin was not through the search firm. That was a completely different thing. He was not through this hockey operations search. But I think some of the people who were interviewed kind of knew about it. That they were, I think some of them were informed or it was it was discussed with them that Sundin was going to take this position or was going to was being pitched on this. I shouldn't say take but was being pitched on this position. And they were potentially going to work together. I've heard there were a couple of people who were kind of asked about it. And so the other individual, I believe, is going to be the GM. And, you know, as we've reported and other people have reported, Nick's been on it too. I think that's come down to John Chaka and Scott White. And if Sundin does take the job, I think it's going to be Chaka. Now, if something happens here and it doesn't occur, I don't know where this is all going to go. I don't know what the backup plan is. But as it stands right now, I'm under the impression it's going to be Sundin and Chaka. And they just have to close the deal. Nothing is done until it's done. But that's what I believe is going on. So this role they're looking at for Sundin, I mean, is it, is it Shanahan-esque with less of the business side responsibilities? Like, it sounds like this is a pretty big spot. Again, not that we want to get wrapped up in titles per se, but in terms of what would be under his purview. It's a big, it's, you know what? If you want to call it Shanahan-Lite, we can call it Shanahan-Lite. I don't know. I mean, that's a great question, Kyle. But I don't think it's a small role. Like, I don't think he's coming here to kiss babies and shake hands. I don't think that's what this is. I think they're really hoping he can have an active role in shaping the future of the team. Wow. And of course, I mean, you know, a guy like Chaka has general manager experience in this league. But I suppose a guy like Sundin in terms of the people skills, how many years he's been an ambassador has been one of the faces of the franchise. Is that kind of part of their thinking too, in terms of some of the conversations and people you would have to and want to be around and talking with as one of the heads of the organization? I'm just wondering like beyond just a nice PR move of going, Matt Sundin is back. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. This is, to me, this is not about PR. Like, he's taking this job. Like, he hasn't been around in a day-to-day role. But the biggest question is how all of this is going to look when everything gets filled out. Who do they keep? Who do they go out and bring in? They're going to need people who are experienced, who've been in the game. There's no question about that. So, I mean, it's very clear to me that they want, they feel the pride of the team got damaged last year, right? The team didn't have the esprit de corps that you want to have. And I think they're hoping that by bringing Sundin back in and somebody who cares about the Maple Leafs as much as he does, he can at least restore some of that and hope it helps to be a part of what can make them successful. All right. And you wanted to come clean on something? Yeah, I got to tell the story. I was really trying not to say it, but I had a reporter call and ask me about it. So, I got to, I figure I better tell the story of myself. So, you know, we reported Sundin a couple of weeks ago that he was in town meeting with the Leafs. And the way I found out about that was, you know, right before the playoffs, as you know, Kyle, during the playoffs, you work almost every night and there's less family time. So, my son and I had it went on a date. We had a father-son date at one of the city's great steak houses, Harbor 60. Yeah, yeah. And yes, and we were, we were going to the bathroom and we walked right into Matt Sundin and Keith Pelley. And so, it took me a day to kind of figure out what was going on, but we didn't find out about it because of any kind of great reporter. We found out about it because I like meat. It was like the thought line experience in real life. You just like, the backwards stumbled right into another scoop. Yeah, it was kind of weird. It was like, what? Like, it was really a, there were three double takes there. Let's put it that way. Yes, that's awesome. Did you say anything or you just like the nod? No, I mean, it's like, okay, what's going on here? And I, like, I really haven't told anybody this story, but I guess somehow it's kind of gotten out. And I was like, you know what? I better come clean about it before somebody else writes it or says it. That's too good. All right. So it looks like we're reaching, getting closer to a conclusion of how things are going to look in Toronto. What about Vancouver? You want to add there? Yeah. So for nothing new on Nashville, they said the other day, but Vancouver, I think they're going to start to call their list a little bit here. So who do we know? Shane Done been reported, Kevin Adams been reported, Ryan Johnson been reported, Ray Whitney's been reported, Bill Scott, Rick Bonus, or sorry, Ryan Bonus, not Rick Bonus. That would be quite a story. I believe they also interviewed Patrick Burke from the NHL. I have to tell you, it is an enormous compliment to Patrick that he got interviewed by the Canucks, considering that the relationship between Brian and the Canucks has not always been smooth. Those waters have been rough at times. So when I actually heard about this, I was surprised and impressed that he would get that interview, but they did interview him. I heard there's three other names I haven't been able to confirm at this time. So I'm keeping quiet about them. I believe they had some interest in Tom Fitzgerald, but Fitzgerald, I believe his true interest is in the Nashville job. So I'm not, I don't know that that went anywhere. I'm not really sure. I did have a couple of people who said they heard the Canucks had expressed some interest in speaking to Scott Niedermeyer, who works for Anaheim and is of course a BC guy. I am told that they never asked for permission. So I don't know if it was one of those like, maybe we'll consider this, maybe we'd be interested in something like this. And I don't think Scott Niedermeyer would be, you know, I've had a couple of people tell me that Niedermeyer kind of likes his life where he can dart in and out and be a family man as much as he wants to be or his other interests in life. But I did have a couple of different people who told me they heard the Canucks had interest in Niedermeyer. All I can say is that they never officially asked the docs for permission so that it was either incorrect or it just didn't go to that point. So, you know, we'll see. I think they're calling the herd a bit here and we'll see where it goes. Apparently, in some of these zooms, the Canucks had like five people talking to the one candidate. They were busy. Well, I mean, if these exec searches go on any longer, like we're going to have our own designated segment of the pod. We'll have a name for it and everything here as we check in week to week of where things are at. But thank you for that, Elliot. So, in the nation's capitals, the senators have done their locker cleanouts, their exit meetings. We did not hear from Brady Kitchuck one final time and for all the right reasons, congratulations to them. Their family has grown by another. The wife Emma giving birth to their second child. But with all of that going on, the buzz remains of his future in Ottawa. We heard from Steve Stiles, heard from Travis Green. What did you pass from, you know, a general manager who has had to answer the question more than he has wanted to since taking the job in Ottawa about the desire of his captain to remain with the senators? The number one thing I took away from all this is that Ottawa's not even going to consider trading him unless they're forced to. You know, we know how sensitive the senators are to the rumors, but you can tell Stiles, Michael Einlauer, they have enormous pride in their team and their franchise and their city market, whatever you want to call it. They don't like this and they react very negatively to it whenever it pops up, which I think is all fine. You should have pride in your organization and the market in which you work. Just watching it and listening to it. It's very clear, Kyle, the Ottawa senators are not doing this unless it is forced upon them. It's not going to be their choice. Never. It's going to have to be forced upon them for them to move on. All right, with that, why don't we get to the final thought, which is presented by the Toyota BZ. So, Elliot, a name that we had mentioned on this spot a few weeks back now, Cade O'Rourke, 15-year-old right-shot defenseman born in Texas, 6'1", a lot of intrigue, a lot of potential there. Somebody that had been seeking exceptional status with Hockey Canada to enter the OHL one year early, turn 15 this past January, but the reports on Tuesday that it was denied. He will not be getting exceptional status. So, how did Hockey Canada get to this decision for a player seemingly many are very excited about? I was surprised, Kyle. I really was surprised. I just think in this thing in the age that the CHL is battling. They are battling for talent. And, you know, it's even more competitive now, and you have to fight to get these players and keep these players. So, I have to confess, if I was in charge, I would have done it. I would have said if Cade O'Rourke is anywhere close to being considered, we open up the door and we let him in. Now, he would have been taken in the OHL. That was his area. And I heard the OHL is really unhappy. I've heard they're really disappointed and they're really unhappy about it. Now, I asked if there is an appeal process of any kind here, and the short answer is no. And the longer answer that somebody gave to me was the only way there's an appeal process is if they didn't want to be part of Hockey Canada anymore. So, as long as they want to be part of Hockey Canada, no. So, this is the final decision unless we're really going off to uncharted territory. Now, if you've been familiar with this at all, there's been a couple of reasons why, you know, obviously at the end of the day, Hockey Canada didn't feel he was truly exceptional, like some of the other players who've made it at his age. But there's been some accusations that maybe he wasn't treated the same because he's American born, as you pointed out, and not Canadian. And I did have someone tell me that one of the things that he'd heard was that they were worried about the possibility. He goes, Oshawa had the number one pick in the OHL draft that maybe he goes to play for the generals for one year, and then he goes to the U.S. National Development Team. And the CHL or sorry, Hockey Canada did not want to risk that. Like they just know. Like we want someone we feel is going to be here. And, you know, I will say I posed these questions. They were denied to me. You know, I was told it had nothing to do with being American born. And they said that the idea he could bolt after a year never came up. They just felt that on pure hockey and ability and just the overall, are you ready for this? They just said it didn't reach the threshold. And that was their decision. But I will say, Kyle, I just think in this day and age, I wouldn't have done it. If it was anywhere close, I would have said we need to convince these players to play here. Can't be afford to turning down these players. And I would have done differently. So, and I should preface by saying, I mean, you know, we all saw some of the highlights of those. Yes, American born, but had been spending the last couple of years in the GTHL for the Toronto juniors. Last four years. Yep. Yes. And saw some of the highlights from the OHL Cup and sure look great. But for myself personally, like that's all I've really seen of him. I don't know if he had any real opinion of this guy deserves to be there or no, he doesn't. They made the right call would be foolish on my part. All I know is that, I mean, I do believe the term exceptional like still absolutely should mean something. You know, land in DuPont, which is the most recent player to get it. Another defenseman now with the Everett Silver tips in the Western League. You know, his 14 turning 15 year, he was playing in a U18 prep league, the CSS HL and was averaging over two points per game as a defenseman. I know it's not as simple as, you know, look at the stat line and say, okay, he's in or he's not. But that's, that's like pretty big stuff as a guy, you know, just turning 15 at a U18 level as a defenseman. You could tell there was there was something different about that kid at that stage and he's continued to be be wonderful for the Silver tips here now. But I'm with you because this is a different world we're living in now. And, you know, sadly, the entities involved here that are making these decisions, you know, they don't exactly have a track record of being, how do I say this, you know, of the mind of forward thinking and thinking of kind of where things are going and maybe a little more leaning towards on, well, this is how we've done things. So we're going to continue to do things that way. Did that play a role in all of this too? Not sure, but I would have liked to see it. It sounds like, you know, those that are much more in the know of how good this player is, you know, there's there's noise around them for a reason. It would have been it would have been cool to see. Yeah. And, you know, the thing I'm curious about too, Kyle, is the USHL has similar rules. I reached out to them on Tuesday, because I wanted to ask if there was any way that they would make room for him. And I just wasn't able to get an answer. I couldn't connect. And I hope to get that answer soon. But I'm this I feel the same way for the USHL as I do about the CHL. I would do it if I had to change my rules and I had to tell the governors or the team owners, we're going to switch it and we're making this player available. You know, the USHL is really fighting to keep their young American players in there. The CHL is going after and getting their young American players. If I was the USHL, I'd be I'd be telling my owners, guys, we got to do this. We have to take advantage and we'll see what they do. All right. That was the final thought presented by the Toyota BZ. We'll take our first break at no thought line today. That'll be back on Friday. So we'll take a break. And when we come back, we'll go through the other games from Monday night and the Stanley Cup playoffs and get you set for the action tonight. 32 Thoughts the podcast continues after this. All right, let's go through the two games from Monday night and we begin with where the night ended in Salt Lake City. Shay Theodore was the hero for Vegas in overtime to tie that one up at two games apiece. John Tortorella was what? Was he just over a minute in his pregame media availability earlier that day? Continue to say we're ready to play. We're ready to play. And they were out of the gate dynamite, but a veteran Vegas team after letting a three goal lead slip away trailing at one point in the third. None of it shook them enough to lose control. They head back to Vegas all square there. What a game that was. It was like three games in one. It was the Vegas game, the Utah game, and then the Vegas game. Goals disallowed come back on Tortorella back in the room. You know, you can tell one thing that you really learn about people who love hockey. John Tortorella's had how many coaching jobs? You know, he's 67 years old. He's back in the game for who knows how long here. And he's just as excited watching that game get one as he was when he coached his first one. How many years ago? It's hilarious. He goes back into the. You should know by now, and it's kind of unfortunate in a way, but it's just where we are. When the puck goes in, especially the head coach, you probably shouldn't be charging back in another room. You should be looking and saying, okay, is there anything here that I have to worry about? Like it's kind of funny. He didn't realize it was potentially offside and they had to go get him and say, John, the game is still going on here. But it's awesome to see he still got the passion. I thought Eichel was fantastic. To me, Eichel is the best player in the series. I at his best, I think he is the best player in the series. He hadn't been enough for what Vegas needs in the first three games, but I thought in game four, he dominated. And to me, he is just their biggest difference maker and he was in this one twice in overtime, only once that counted, but twice in overtime. If I was Utah, I would be confident I can win this series. I would believe after four games, we can win. And the reason is, you know, Vamelka didn't have some great minutes in this game, but in overtime, I thought he was brilliant, even though they technically beat him twice. He made some huge saves early. And I would believe if I was the mammoth that Vamelka is considerably better than Hart, at least to this point in the series. And considerably better than whatever Vegas can throw at him. And knowing what I know about Vamelka and how competitive he is, he has got to be thinking, I can beat that guy at the other end, and I should beat that guy at the other end. Utah, like Vegas held them to what, 15 shots in game three and still lost the game. Vegas is going to have to be great defensively to win this series. They're going to have to limit chances. Maybe Hart shows up and gets to a higher level in the last two out of three games and wins one or two of them for Vegas. But right now, if you're the mammoth, you have to believe that Vamelka can outduel the other guy and win the series for you. And I just really believe, I just think that the key to the final three games of this series is either Hall or someone else really finds their game. Or Vegas suppresses the mammoth enough that they just don't get enough good chances to beat them. Like as Torna Rella said, the big challenge is a guy like Gunther. He's going to get his shots away. You almost can't do anything about it. You have to do whatever you can to prevent the puck from getting to him. And you have to suppress the mammoth all over the ice. Because if I'm Utah and Hart has a series like this and it continues like this, I'm going to look at it and say, how did we lose this if we do? Like you really have to believe that you should win this series. Other good news for Vegas. Dora Fiav finally gets a point. Almost had another one. He did get benched a little bit after a bad giveaway. Kyle, but they went back to him in the overtime. You know, the biggest concern and it's a shame to see because he's one of the nicest people in the entire NHL. But Thomas Hurdle is really struggling. Someone said to me that his time on ice in game four was his lowest and I think seven years. And you could see he was sliding down the bench. Hurdle is just one of the game's great people, friendly all the time. But it's got to be killing them inside. And you know, this is the time of the year, especially as the series get tighter and deeper, that the coaches can't wait for you to come out of it. They have to make hard decisions and Tortorello's decision was he's not giving us any offense. So he's going to sit. It was tough to watch. Hurdle's a great guy, but he's got to find a way to produce. He simply has to find a way to produce. And sadly, it kind of dates back to the Olympics for him. So whatever the issue has been, he hasn't been able to shake it for a little while here now. You talked about Dylan Gunther, seven shots on goal in game number four and not one found the back of the net. You've got to think to Tortorello's point, if you're Vegas, if those odds were to continue or those amount of shots were to continue for Gunther, I mean, he's not going to continue to be kept off the score sheet as this series goes on. I just thought, so John Cooper mentioned, we'll get to Montreal and Tampa here in a little bit quickly. But John Cooper mentioned, you know, the worst thing his team can do here now, like you are pushed up against the ropes in game four, you find a way to win on the road, it's all square, you're coming back home for game number five. You can't go from that to allow yourself to take an exhale. And I think that's one thing that Vegas has to guard against here where that was an emotional game on Monday night. They were off and running. Suddenly they're taken on water. That place was going crazy. You have the offside goal called off and over time. And then you manage to win through all of it. Don't allow yourself to take an exhale because to your point, there's nothing about this for Utah's going, I don't think we can beat this team. It's been very close. I just don't see Vegas having that problem, Kyle, too mature, too many veterans, team that's won it before. I think they understand that. They're going to have to be elite defensively elite defensively to win this series though. And, you know, we talked about hurdle there, Kyle. Yeah. Utah, Andre Ternier discussed JJ Paterka got benched and he acknowledged it. But then he said, look, we're keeping it in house. We're not going to talk about it anymore than that. We had our conversation with them and that's it. The thing about a guy like Paterka is we talked about Utah should feel confident that they're better in goal and that's how they can win the series. Paterka properly motivated and wired to play well in game six. That's a guy who can score for you. That's a guy who shot. We talked about Gunther. That's another guy. You need one shot to score. He can do it for you. He's got the narrative, Kyle, right in front of him. Benchton game four, hero of game five. It's right there for him. So game five will be late Wednesday night from Vegas, 10 Eastern, seven Pacific time at T-Mobile arena. Meanwhile, the battle of Pennsylvania, it's starting to get a little bit tighter now, Elliott. Another win for the Penguins. They can win in the playoffs in those bright yellow jerseys. Not everyone was sold on it, but they got to win in those uniforms to keep their season alive. Once again, another win for Arthur Shilovs as he manages to hold steady. A young team in Philadelphia who have so much hope going forward and a lot to be excited about right now. But this is a group that is learning how difficult it is to get a series over the line once and for all. So Philly showed up at the start of the series. All their players were there. They were ready to go and they played with structure. They played with discipline in terms of the way they were expected to play and they jumped out to the three nothing lead. And some of Pittsburgh's guys, we were looking at them and saying, where are they? When are they going to arrive? Well, now the cavalry has come and more of them have arrived in the series. Number one on that list, Kyle, is Anthony Manta. I finally got a point, got an assist. And in a series where there's been a lot of quote unquote physicality after the whistle, few cross checks here and there, few punches here and there, he delivered one. And you know, this series is not like many of these is not for the weak or the faint of heart. And if you are not prepared to engage, you're not going to be effective. And you know, maybe the Flyers fans didn't like what Manta did, but this has been a full playoffs of both teams in all series delivering these kinds of blows and messages. You cannot shy away from it. You have to at least be involved in it. And Manta arrived. You know, the guy I'm waiting for, Durer again, had a big day. He had a great year for them and they needed him to be more impactful. And he was. So more and more of the penguins are starting to show up. To me, that's been the biggest difference in the series is that Philly started on time and Pittsburgh didn't. Now it would really help the penguins if a guy like Chinnacov, who had such a great year for them after he got traded there, would be more impactful because he's an elite scorer. And he could make a difference over the last two games. I think if he can finally come and make an impact at some point, that would be massive for the penguins. You know, if you're Philly, you know, obviously, you know what the stories are going to be. Oh, three nothing now three two. Are they feeling pressure? Are they going to be nervous? I think that's what this Rick Talkett said on Tuesday that they're thinking of putting bonk in on defense who's never played a playoff game before. I think you have to reset your mentality a bit. You have to remind your players that if they were told before the series, they had a chance to knock out Pittsburgh on home ice in game six. They would have taken it and you have to remind your guys of that. I have a feeling this was supposed to be a one game thing with Mishkov. So I suspect he goes back in. I don't know that for sure. I suspect he goes back in. I thought Bump was really good in the lineup for him. Yeah, on the score sheet. We'll see how this, what's that? On the score sheet. We'll see how this all plays out. You know, the one thing about it that's really interesting. I was talking about this with a manager of another team. You know, one of the things you really think about in the playoffs is enough trouble comes your way that you try not to walk yourself into any controversy. He's fascinated by the fact that this player is such a lightning rod, both good and bad, that Philly could be up 3-1 in a series going into that game. They make the scratch because he hasn't played great. And immediately that's a fireball in a series you're winning and have played very well. And what it says to you is that, like, to me right now, I'm focused on the series because nothing's going to happen right now. But the one thing that we know, Kyle, is that whenever this season ends for the Flyers, that's going to be by far the most dominant plot of their offseason. And there isn't going to be a close number two. Like Mishkov, if you're ranking the top 10 subplots of Philadelphia's postseason, Mishkov is going to be 1-10 and you can find something else to be number 11. And, you know, I know there was some controversy about whether or not he was supposed to warm up. But it's going to be big because the other thing this executive was telling me right now is that everybody's making a note of who's playing and who's not playing on these teams, right? Like, for example, Anaheim, Zellweger's not playing. So people are making notes, okay, Zellweger's not playing. What does this mean? And whenever Anaheim's season is done, there'll be teams that call the docs and say, okay, you know, what are you thinking here? So I can tell you that right now people are looking at this and they are saying, all right, if this player interests us, we have to be ready to see, A, what we're willing to do and B, what Philadelphia is going to do. It's just, it is amazing to me that you can be up 3-1 in a series, now 3-2, but that takes all the oxygen. And what this guy was saying to me is that in some cases you would almost, and I don't know if Philly did this. He's just talking about his own situation. In some cases you bring up internally, if we make this move, we know the craziness it's going to create. Let's avoid doing it. But when you're in the playoffs and you're up 3-1 and you believe that the best way to close it out is by going with this lineup, you have to do it. When it comes to winning a game in the playoffs or creating an online firestorm, the only thing that matters is winning the game in the playoffs. But he said, he found it very interesting from outside that it was that big for a team that was at that time so in control. You know, the other things I just, one thing I wanted to say is I wanted to shout out Shilas because that guy is a big game goalie. Calder Cub, Cal remember how he played for Vancouver that year, Nashville Edmonton? People can have all these questions about his ceiling or how good he is or what kind of goalie he is. Every time I see that guy playing a big game, he plays his heart out and he doesn't shrink away from the moment. Anybody who has that kind of attitude can play for me anytime. And he manages to have a short memory too. Like it was a tough first goal that he gave up and then like just a bad bounce on the deflection on the Sanheim goal but didn't lose himself. Like kept steady and they hung on. It was impressive. I can only imagine how much mental energy has been expended here for the Flyers, the way they did it down the stretch and getting in. And then, boom, like they come running out of the gates. They roll through Pittsburgh, the first two games. They win their first game at home. And now, you know, kind of as you touched on, it's like resetting yourself going, okay, take a bit of a breath here and find the necessary energy. Because I know obviously nobody's 100% this time of the year. It's almost not so much physical. It just feels like it's a mental thing right now. Talking about some guys have sluggish the last couple of games. It's almost okay. The emotional demands of winning the fourth, can we get ourselves to that level once more? We've done it three times against this team. Can we just do it once more? Kyle, I think it's a great point. The other thing I just wanted to mention too was, did you see Malekin shoot the puck into the Philly bench early in that game? Yes, and talking, not thrilled about it. So, you know, Bednar got hurt last week, so you know, you can't really joke about this kind of stuff like it is potentially serious. But when he did that, I said to myself, Pittsburgh wants to be the bullies tonight. You know, a lot of this series, the Flyers have been the bullies. That was a tone-setter for me. And I have no doubt the Penguins will be warned about that and Malekin will be warned about it because the league won't want in game six, like Travis Konekni doing the same thing to Pittsburgh. But that was Malekin setting a tone. Hey, we're the bullies tonight. Enough of this. And was it a Shari that grabbed Konekni's helmet at the end of the game? Yeah. I thought, I can only imagine how many pieces that thing would be in when it was delivered back to Philly's dressing room, if at all. He hid Limburger cheese inside of it. Oh, it's been, there's been some great sidebars here, through that one and a bit of an odd path, but fitting that that one's going to minimum six games. Okay, so Tampa Montreal hasn't played since we last spoke of Fridge. Game number five is Wednesday night down here in Florida. But you talked a little bit about it after that game on radio, certainly on Monday. It has been an emotional series. There have been a lot of penalties both ways. We've seen some animated looks from both coaches. What do you hear in terms of some of the conversations going on behind the scenes between the Canadians and the lightning? First call. I can't wait for game five tonight. Great hockey. Two, two series. Awesome. Yes. You've really lucked out with this one, man. You really have. Even though you don't go out in either city, it's just a waste of a waste of a sideline reporter. You've seen post game three in Montreal on Friday night. What happened? You would have loved it. There's a few of us out at the old orchard, which is like a go to, not far from where we were staying. You've been to the orchard, haven't you? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Anyway, they had, and did you know, John Shabbat, ex-NHL player, his son Kyle helps run that place, which I didn't realize. Oh, because he used to work at Stoges. Oh, there you go. Because Craig Simpson is John's godfather, right? Yes. Yes, that's right. It's Kyle's, yeah. Yeah, that's right. So him and his sister, I believe, used to work at Stoges. So that's where they are now? Yes. And anyway, so he was there. Craig was there. There was a few others from our crew there. And great tunes playing. It felt like karaoke night at times. It was a... Did you sing? Yeah. Like it wasn't like actual karaoke night where there's a stage and a microphone, but just among the group. You know, you're belting out. So what were you belting out, Kyle? What was your song of choice that you were just sitting there belting out? Kelly Clarkson, since you've been gone. Really? How could you not belt that out? How can you not belt that out when that chorus hits? Would you like to sing a few bars for us here? No, we're trying to hold listeners throughout the entirety of the podcast. We don't need a big drop with like five minutes to go. Anyway, I'm glad you got out there. It's been a great series. Yes. Okay. So, so I believe once in this series, the lightning have been warmed about scrums. I think that was after game two and before game three. And I'm curious, very curious to see how this one looks because I believe the Canadians feel that John Cooper is a maestro with the officials. That his quote unquote encouragement has been working for the lightning in this series. Now there have been a lot of penalties called and there have been a lot of complaints both ways about this. And the embellishment is terrible. Like it is. And I... It's not just this series. Yeah, but in this one, this one, it seems to be particularly bad, but yes, it's everywhere. But you know, when I look at Cooper like this, when he's confident, he's calm. He's cool. He looks like he should be on the cover of GQ as opposed to coaching in NHL team. But when he's worked up like that, he's... We're in a fight. I have to help drag us through this. I am needed. And he sees that they're in a really hard series against Montreal that could go either way. And the law school student, he is working it. He is working it. And someone's joked me. They said if that was Brindlemore, they would have stapled him to his desk in the office already. Like they just would not have let him do that. And because I guess that Brindlemore is the guy that wouldn't compare everybody else to. But you know, it's going to be interesting because you Campbell River guys, you guys are nuts. But I just heard that there were some talk about Cooper's encouragement. And I also think that the other thing that was pretty funny is I tried to find out what happened with Jack I in game two. And because remember, there was a big scrum and Tampa got a penalty and Montreal was going on a power play. And then at the beginning of the second period, I think it was, he got a two minute penalty. And I was told it was taunting, but you went to him, right? Yeah. So a few of us asked what had happened. And his explanation was that he was going by the bench and yeah, he got dinged on the score sheet. It's on sportsman like conduct. He was going by the bench and there was a Tampa player that had like their stick out. And I don't know if I don't think it was necessarily out like he was trying to hit Jack I or anything, but just like, I don't know if he was leaning over the bench. And as most guys do, blade up on the bench and it was hanging out over. And as he went by, he swatted the Tampa player stick with his own. And I guess right away at the referee, it was like, you. And that was that. So it's just, it's been very, very emotional. I should also point out too, just to put the facts out there so far in the series, Tampa has had 20 power play opportunities. Montreal has had 19. So it's not as if the lightning I've had three times is more. Maybe I'm a little more willing to hear that side of it of Cooper work in the officials that way. But it's not like necessarily they've been garnering way more chances on the power play because of it all. The man is a lawyer. Like he talks, but whether it's that or the ability, as he said, to be able to read people, he's going to put those skills to work even from behind the bench now. Are you interviewing him before game five? I don't know that yet. If you are, it is your duty to ask him, John, do you think you intimidate referees? I will. And I have to say, I forgot to mention this last pod. But credit to you and the panel the other night, taking my question to John about Expos Fest and how deep you guys went through different players that played for the Montreal Expos and making comparisons to other players in this series, I was very, very impressed. It just kept going. The names kept coming up. It was off the cuff like that. It got a little bit out of control after a while. Yes, but still the fact that you could even do that. Very good. I watched a lot of Expos baseball when I was a kid. I still think that year they lost to Philly in 1980. Oh, that was brutal. Okay, even before 81, which was obviously brutal too. So we'll see about that one. I'm glad we got the mystery of what that penalty was because when I heard it was taunting, because I asked somebody what it was and they said it was taunting. So it's interesting that you heard that the jack I said it was because you made contact with the stick. But because it's kind of funny, like I guess Gensel is like an elite level churper. Apparently, he's great at it. Like just elite, elite chirping skills. And we saw Kuturov go by Dobish after that one bad goal. So I guess there's just a lot of lobbying going on here in every direction about how this series should be officiated. So I think A, I'm curious to see who's going to show up for game five. And because it definitely needs a veteran hand, a skilled hand. And B, what we see differently in terms of the calls, if anything. Yes. Just in talking to some players, there is a sense that they've struggled a little bit to try to find where the line is. And I'm sure there's other players in other series that go, we feel the same. But something they've had to navigate. That's not unique to the playoffs. All right. So 630 Eastern tonight, hockey central beyond on the pregame show, teeing up game number five from benchmark international arena in Tampa, a little after seven Eastern on CBC and Sportsnet on Sportsnet 360 at 730 ET. It's a game six, Pittsburgh and Philly can the Penguins force a game seven back at home. And as we mentioned earlier, game number five from Vegas, the Golden Knights in the Utah mammoth will be on a Sportsnet 10 Eastern, seven o'clock Pacific time from T mobile arena. And we'll do it for this edition of 32 thoughts. The podcast we are back again on Friday. We'll see who still remains in the first round of the Stanley Cup playoffs by then. See you Friday.