Documentary Book Club - Netflix’s Reality Check: America’s Next Top Model

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Welcome to Glamorous Trash. This is a podcast that book clubs viral articles, celebrity memoirs, and trashy discourse to elevate your life. I'm your host, Chelsea DeVantes. I'm a TV writer, comedian, filmmaker, author, and sometimes I'm in stuff too. And today we're doing a documentary book club on Netflix's reality check, Inside America's Next Top Model, which just came out on February 16th. It's three episodes. I highly recommend you watch it, but it did feel like watching a horror documentary of a couple of years that we lived through. It's so intense. Here is your trigger warning for, I think, everything. I think for ED, assault, a lot of difficult talk. So take care while listening. But we must discuss America's Next Top Model, and this kind of goes along with a previous episode we did with Sarah Hartshorn, who was on season nine and wrote a tell-all, and we will link that episode in the notes because they are companion pieces today. Now let's dive in. I want to talk about being slapped across the face. We felt betrayed. And slapped right back. It was very, very intense. But you guys were demanding it, and so we kept pushing it. My guests today are Justine Kay and Natasha Scott Reichel, the brilliant women behind the hit show Two Black Girls, One Rose, a podcast discovering what we can learn about modern dating, love, and relationships from popular television. This podcast is so good. They've been named one of 50 best podcasts to listen to right now by Time Magazine. They've been featured in Washington Post, the LA Times, New York Magazine. They also recap other shows like Love is Blind and Bridgerton, The Ultimatum. We're going to talk about Love is Blind at the very top of this podcast because I have to. And there were also guests on a particularly wild episode on this podcast, Confessions of a Video Vixen and The Vixen Diaries. Do you guys remember when we covered Superhead on this podcast? Yes, I do. That was so fun. Oh my God. We seem to have you on to bring you back to brutal times in history. Scandal and controversy only. yes okay thank you so much for being here you had a clip from your podcast recently that i laughed myself to sleep to watching you were discussing this season of love is blind ohio where davante is not interested in britney though he's not saying it with his words and justin will you please recap what you said about this man so here's the thing about davante right i hate to like poke at people's looks and things like that like it just seems like cheap to me you're a comedy writer you know it's a cheap joke right but when you don't like women of color and you have the audacity to be named davante and you have the audacity not to tell her and you have the audacity and she's like gorgeous i just i can't not point out the fact that you look like a terrible gummy sitting in the pool talking about you're not attracted to her that is crazy this show the irony of it being called love is blind where every season it has become more and more actually about looks like it's become a looks-based show when it was not supposed to be this season the most and i do think when you are okay articulating so much about someone's looks that is now fair game to be disgusting looks and all the men on this season they're all talking about how ugly their partners are and how they're not attracted to them and these are some of the most beautiful women i've ever seen yeah what is going on in ohio like what's your take on this season i don't know what is in the water the men this season have so much audacity i think there's audacity in the water in ohio something's going on where they have so much gall to sit across from even alex sitting across from ashley who was like a very conventionally like tall skinny blonde girl kind of you know the girl next door whatever the fuck and you have the nerve to say that you're trying to match the physical and the emotional like even just that example is just so bizarre to me all of them i think alex and ashley and the britney triangle is my absolute favorite because alex is extremely maga and pro trump and makes it a part of a storyline ashley looks like the prototype of that movement ashley clearly is like you're welcome i am very thin and tall and blonde obviously love is blind is gonna go well right she comes out and he's like i really want to date the latina britney and hits on her mere feet away from ashley i am heartbroken for ashley but i'm like sir do you realize that you can't date britney because he's gonna deport right you can't vote for the man who's gonna take the girl you're trying to fuck away like what are you talking about thank you makes no sense yeah and davante is with the most beautiful woman ever and god is like i've never dated a woman of color and clearly has a problem with it even though i i believe he is mixed race that's been confirmed so i don't know if he knows he's mixed race that's the thing that's confusing i think he's denying he's in denial of whatever side that he's in he's definitely like looking to clear the bloodline he definitely wanted him because even watching back the clip of him saying i don't date women of color he almost seems so detached from the term of color and i'm like yeah you know yeah has anyone told you like i'm so confused like oh yeah and then there's chris who just broke up with the hottest five foot tall brunette doctor a tiny tiny very small woman which is important to say because he tells her i'm not attracted to you because you don't do pilates every day also being tiny yes him also make clear he is also a small man he doesn't do pilates every day it's very clear he sure don't look like he go to the gym every day that's for sure and i'm curious do you think he did that because he just i don't know just gets boners for women who do crossfit or do you think he was like oh she's a doctor i'm a loser I should be mean to her real quick. What do you think it was? Yeah, could be even a combination of both. We had a lot of questions about him and why he would not go with her and what he even thinks he looks like on television. Like, you have cameras on you. You're denying this woman for what she looks like. We are in now the 10th season of this show. You know how that goes. so to for him to say that also feels like he's really out of touch and like it's it's just something that like really hit his consciousness like really really hard whatever it is about her and i think also these men are really reflective of the time they're like really reflective of like what's going on in the manosphere right now i find it so interesting that we talk about a male loneliness epidemic and then you take a sampling of men in ohio and it's like y'all deserve to be alone you don't deserve to have male friends like you guys are so rude and awful and mean and it is really interesting is that kind of what you're talking about like oh male loneliness is at its highest and marriage rates and you have all these men running around being like horrible to women horrible to women horrible to other men chris even at the mixer was like horrible to connor about britney and saying oh what is he gonna do beat me up oh show me a charles schwab account like just even mean to each other which is so bizarre and strange especially just as a woman who's built an online community i'm like why are you what is the point of this not even just male loneliness just like how masculinity is looking nowadays and how patriarchy is at like this peak that is clearly on a tightrope yeah like they're walking a tightrope is really really bad it's like peak insecurity for sure yeah it's like masculinity and ideals of it have gotten like stronger and more intense and more aggressive while it's actually the weakest it's ever been it's ever been yeah a lot of talking about i'm a trader and they're like what do you trade and he's like usd to aud and it's like well that's us dollars to australian dollars what does that i guess i don't know how trading clearly i don't either i didn't know just going from australia to usa was a job. But listen, I don't prank stocks. Please weigh in in the comments. But when he was talking about trading, I said, if this is it, maybe I should become a trader. Maybe I can do it. Sounds like it. Giving unemployed. I also found this season incredibly boring and then suddenly extremely accepting. Yes. But it took a long time. It absolutely peaked up. Yeah. I've been having these 14-hour work days, and I come home, and I watch this trash to fall asleep. Nice. And then I dream nightmares. so i i thank you for your takes i would do the whole episode on love is blind with you if i could however we are here to discuss dare i say something far worse than the men in love is blind ohio which is tyra banks in the america's next top model documentary so highly recommend you watch it you just listen to this episode then go watch it if you haven't already but i think we you to talk about some highlights and things that really stood out to us because this is so jam-packed. Okay, we're going to take a quick break right now and we'll be right back. I have not seen the sun a lot lately. Not great. I have been working inside film studios and podcast studios kind of every second of the day for a month. So my skin has been suffering, except Ritual Hycera's skin supplement has been saving me. It is a clinically proven way to support skin hydration with science-backed benefits like reducing wrinkles and improving skin smoothness. It is very important to me that products like this contain high quality, clean ingredients, and all of Ritual's products are just that. All of their products are vegan, GMO-free, and tested for heavy metals and common allergens. Your skin always starts below the surface, and Rituals Hycera features clinically studied key ingredients to help support moisturized skin that glows. 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While we also had Mr. J who was interviewed, we had Miss J who was interviewed and we had Nigel, who were like the three, you know, main judges. Janice Dickinson was not interviewed because there's another top model documentary coming out on e i'm thrilled can't wait i'll be sitting down for that one too can't fucking wait i need i need more but the way they had their perspective of the show and tyra had her perspective of the show what was your overall take on how all of those people came off and their relationship to each other it was very telling that tyra the one topic she refused to talk about on camera in the documentary was mr j and like how he got fired she was giving her two sense on everything even the shandy of it all which i'm sure we'll get to she had something to say but specifically on mr jay and the firing and all of that she would not touch it on camera they were like do you want to talk about what happened with mr jay and she goes um no you know i should call him that's really a face-to-face thing and i said it's been 20 years exactly you're doing the documentary look back you the time to call him has passed was before you sat down and got mic'd up lady oh my god it was such a pr answer truly yeah did you feel like she did him wrong because one thing i was struggling with is that mr j nigel and miss j are all clearly so mad at tyra for fucking them over at the end and firing them that i felt like they weren't pressed to take accountability of some of the things that happened on the show because They're now positioned as victims. But for, I don't know, 15 seasons, they were also perpetrators. And I didn't feel like Mr. J took accountability because he was so mad at Tyra and was sort of like Tyra made me do the race switching episode. Tyra made me do these things. And then he said he wanted to leave. She wouldn't let him leave. And then he stays 10 more seasons. Yeah, that was wild. I think it's such a testament to America's Next Top Model not being a pipeline for anyone. Because even Mr. J couldn't get another job after hosting for years. That is such a good point. So Sarah Hartshorn, who was on season nine, I did an interview with her on this podcast. I want to point something out. In her book, she said Mr. J was the worst and the rudest behind the scenes and didn't want to be on the show and was rude to all the girls. i asked sarah i'm curious your take i was like why did this show not lead anyone to have a career and sarah kind of pushed back she was like no there were girls who went on to work or winnie harlow but it sort of looks like it was despite america's next top model not because of it yeah so is that your take on it this show just crushed all of them do you think it led to anyone's success and like why didn't it produce people i mean i was looking up winnie harlow and like what she said about the show she blatantly said on watch what happens live with andy cohen that america's next time model quote really doesn't do anything for any model's career realistically she does not credit america's next time model for her success they credit her they anytime they mention about the success winnie harlow that's one of our alums the first name they put out there season 21 so you had 21 seasons before you hit the jackpot 14 women's careers season 21 you finally get winning but yeah they're producing a reality show at the end of the day yeah tyra could sit there still in that chair and talk about how she was there to fight for diversity in the modeling industry and to showcase how it really is and blah blah but i mean it was a show even the way they cast the girls the questions they asked they showed a scene from i think from season one casting the girl shannon where they're asking her questions about her virginity is she a virgin what that got to do with madeline you're casting characters so from the very beginning you were casting a show all the way through to season 23 when you're doing your your fourth race switching freaking photo shoot like you're creating controversy you're you're creating good television you're not really focused at all on the mission quote unquote on hand of creating the next top model so yeah i i totally agree i think this is also where the franchise really failed because i mean love is blind is doing a better job at like making true love the bachelor yes american idol they put time into making sure some portion of the people who went on the show go on to some sort of success because that's what carries the show you can't they can't do the bachelor every year if no one's gotten married and i feel like america's next top model was like literally we don't care about modeling like these are fake contracts these are fake people we're thinking about like if you guys should eat live bugs next season that's the focus in a modeling challenge yeah and they didn't care at all if the girls made it in any way when they had whitney i think she was the first plus size winner i want to say and she said whatever agency they signed her with didn't even have a plus size division yeah division come on yeah yeah okay so tyra really says this show was her revenge on the industry this is her doing good work in the world of showing different types of beauty of fighting for the curvier girls and then created so much harm is it that she was trying to push for progress in a year that didn't allow any the early aughts or is this a shield she tries to hold up as she gobbles up fame and success because i really went back and forth into the documentary if she ever truly had a good intention or if that was just what sounds good to her now no i think she knows what sounds good i think she is really hyper aware of how damaging it is to have blackface photo shoots for multiple people and then send them out into the world like now she's hyper aware of like the actual damage that caused and like what woke actually means and like what she was supposed to represent and when i was watching it i found her to have so many qualities of a dictator or a cult leader like she was the victim and the prophet right she was like just so many things all at once and made these really big statements like she said in the very first episode if i didn't have america's next top model what would i do who was you would model well here's the thing justine she was 30 so she was if she did not get this show she was a 30 year old model and i think she felt like her time was up because I also was like why do you have to have this show you the whole career but I think she wanted to remain in the industry and didn't know how because she was about to be 30 okay okay we'll go with that no I no no no because but I am with you because she recently gave an interview where she said you know America's Next Top Model and modeling is great it's in a museum she says museum it's in a museum but my legacy is ice cream oh yeah yeah pushing the ice cream like a dictator oh you're fucking crazy like two plus two equals 75 in this brain yeah and yeah i went and looked up her ice cream okay it is called smize and dream it's also called hot mama ice cream it's also called my ice cream you can get it hot and you can get it cold and it is hot ice cream. What does that mean? And then you can join the Smize fam, but also cream is thicker than water. I said, you went to Harvard Business School. She did. Yes. This is my theory of like, a late in life Harvard is just a recipe for psychopaths. If you had a whole ass career and then you're like, I gotta go to Harvard. Like, there is a wound deep inside that ain't never gonna be healed. Anyways, To bring this back to your point, Justine, like she seems to be lost in terms of who she is. She's now an ice cream maker. Right. Right. And she's just the type to close the door behind her. Yeah. Like I'll never forget Issa Rae said the point of making insecure is to open the doors in front of me. I want everybody to go ahead of me. Everybody go make, make, make, create, create, create. Tyra is the exact opposite. She doesn't want nobody coming behind her. It's almost as if Tyra didn't want them to be successful because it personally hurt her. And Issa Rae, I want to say, like, beyond what we know in the headlines, like us here in this industry, she literally has created pipeline programs. There's a pipeline program for talent who is underrepresented to get managers, to get work, to get movies. Like, she's gone beyond just saying it and has actually created the programs. Tyra created a program where by the end of it, you get shoved off a cliff and die. Literally, yeah. She was like, come to my pipeline program. And reap nothing but misery. Yeah. I found the saddest thing at the end of the documentary, all the girls talking about their unfulfilled dreams. Yeah. And that another really devastating moment was with Dani, the one who she made her close her gap, which is like a whole other thing. And Dani's talking about how she won. And then she was just sitting in this model apartment doing nothing but watching Chanel LeMond's career take off. and then that phone call she had with tyra with tyra literally admitted i knew you were struggling and i did nothing why would she why would you admit that what was the point of that conversation she sick i mean listen before pressing play on the documentary i was ready to be like it was a different time she was really trying She got really lost And she also a minority in the industry Like she had different pressures Like, I was ready to see the nuanced reasons behind the terror she created. And I left the documentary being like, you're a monster. She came off so bad in this documentary. me i'm wondering if she sometimes cosplays as like just one of the girls and she called danny was like sorry girl i knew you were struggling girl because it seems to be one of her traits that she sits down and is like i remember i was being cheated on right shandy yeah big sister yeah but it's like it's like an alien stepping into a girl's girl character for a moment yeah let's talk about shandy so had you already processed that in it's season one or season two two where shandy basically opens up about being estranged from her family never getting hugged never having any type of love in her life and then they invite these men over who were hired to moped them around the city to their go-sees and they have them over shandy had two bottles of wine she is the size of my fingernail and she's clearly intoxicated and passed out in this hot tub and she is then sexually assaulted by this guy she can't consent she's fully blacked out they then aired it as her cheating on her boyfriend had you already processed that that was an assault we had watched versus like the cheating storyline like where were you at with that when you revisited this in the documentary oh my god no no they edited that so well into making it seem like she wanted him so badly and like her boyfriend at home was just this loser who worked at walgreens and she was gonna be this big model and then she called him and they had that really emotional phone call and they just positioned particularly positioned her boyfriend as this like stay at home like he's holding her back from her big new career in milan and this guy is like just a consequence of her moving forward and in the modeling industry so they tried to almost make it like a storyline to like move and push her forward and for them to edit it that way and know what they were filming and there were just so many people involved with that was really really disturbing and then really even more disturbing i thought to see the executive producer ken mock sitting there and saying well we filmed this like a documentary no you didn't because you put those men in their lap you have them do maxi challenges and mini challenges this is not documentary this is a reality television competition yeah also all the rules are set up for like you'll give a confessional these girls should get in a fight here are challenges like it's not it's not just you living your life give them bottles of wine bottle you go hot tub set up there like come on yeah yeah so for him to just excuse it like oh we film it like a documentary doesn't track yeah i also thought the fact that when they asked tyra about it she said well that's production i have nothing to do with production her response was so disgusting it's not it's not true because then they show a scene of her sitting down and guilting shandy into cheating and it was like tyra again you know there's cameras here did you think you were gonna get away with right pretending you had nothing to do and you're one of the producers of the show so you're not gonna gaslight me right now into thinking you had no idea like you are the producer of the producer yeah i thought it was disgusting too she took like pride in the fact that they had way more footage that they didn't show yeah you know i think shandy was saying in the documentary of her having to call the guy and asking him if he wore protection did he have any stis like they filmed a lot that they didn't show and tyra brought that up as like a source of pride of like we handled it really well guys i do want to go back to what is it 2002 it's the early years and she has other instances in the show like when the other model is clearly getting sexually harassed during a photo shoot yeah and says she says herself what would tyra do tyra would stop and say something they bully her into continuing and then later tyra says to her teaches her hey the way to do is you got to like flirt with them you got to say it cute but have your power you got to you got to make him think like you want him while shutting it down and she thinks she's passing on a good lesson so i expected when we revisited what happened with shandy her to be like i in my own life believed rape culture was consent i in my own life believed that even if you were drunk and had sex with a man that was your bad choice because we've always been taught it's on the right i handled it wrong and instead she was like i edited it out the sex give me a triscuit please like yeah yeah yeah that was let's talk about how tyra similar to chris harrison believes we only knew what right and wrong was in 2020 what is going on where so many times she was like back then it was fine but in 2020 we knew better and i said in 2020 you found out blackface was bad as a black woman yeah the fact that she was the only one sitting there saying that ken didn't say that the head of upn didn't say that nobody said that but tyra is like i kind of believe well in 2020 i said no no what but it was very it was very similar to the bachelor controversy where chris harrison was like listen it's like she dressed up as a racist confederate in 2019 it was okay back then in 2020 it's now bad it's like no was no so okay so talk to me about your thoughts on again tyra as a black woman saying really cruel things to other black women she had ebony's hair cut by white stylists who made fun of her hair who butchered her hair what do you think is going on there she did the race switching challenge twice she had no apologies for it in the documentary other than it wasn't bad back then what was your take on all this she had a couple quotes and one of them really stood out to me where she said about i think tiffany right and lashing out at Tiffany she said that's some deep black girl stuff deep inside of me and I was like can we go a little bit further with that we know she has this really infamous beef with Naomi Campbell right another one shuts the door behind her yeah yeah I just want to know a little bit more about her like racial salience and racial identity and why she takes it out so harshly on these black girls and then wants to portray that she wanted to make a difference in the industry. Yeah. Specifically for black women and curvy women. And curvy women. Right. And she abused them the most on the show. Yeah. In the name of the fashion industry. And then said that's some deep black girl stuff inside of me. And then we just kind of washed over it. I need somebody to ask her a few more questions about that stuff deep inside of her. What exactly she's talking about. Right. Yeah, there is so much there. And I mean, I don't know if this is an apt comparison, but like I think about whenever I'm at a stand up show and I see a female stand up comedian get on stage, I have the like, please be good. Please be good. Or you'll ruin it for the rest of us. Whereas like, every time a dude gets on stage and is like, I smoke weed and jack off all day and bombs. I'm like, well, there goes another male comedian. Right. And I'm like, and I'm like, did she have some sort of like early industry experience? where people were harsh towards her where she felt like she couldn't get in and now she is seeking revenge on the people that remind her of her like i don't know what's happening yeah she said she was seeking revenge several times in the documentary she said it on the industry but it was clearly on the black curvy women on the show that's really true she's convinced herself that she was like this vigilante yeah this robin hood of the fashion industry and really she was just out To, like, terrorize these young black girls or these girls in bigger bodies and to get back at something deep rooted within her that feels unhealed or resolved or something. Yeah. I think that's right because that is the only way you go to Harvard late in life. Right. Right. We're just continually trying to patch it. Yes. So, let's talk about Tiffany. Tiffany is the infamous moment. I was rooting for you. we were all rooting for you what surprised me the most in this segment is that several people said she said far worse stuff that we edited out yep insane what do you think she said from the wild clip i've already ever seen so we justine and i we've been re-watching like iconic episodes of merck's next time model on our youtube and we've re-watched obviously this episode we both looked back at that episode so differently because i remember watching it and i was like 11 and i was like damn tiffany like i was rooting for you why are you giving up the context were missing from that moment in that episode prior to that moment and then prior episodes leading up to tiffany was continuously made to feel like she was a fuck up and tyra would always bring up her poor grandma you got that baby sleeping on the floor your grandma cut off the lights so you can get a bathing suit she brought it up several times and she brought it up again in that scene yeah so tyra was no savior as she's trying to portray in that moment i'm trying to save you and teach you a lesson tiffany was set up for failure and she was set up to continuously feel like she was not good enough and she was also over the humiliation all the challenges they had to do that were designed to make them look dumb or look stupid even that final little mini challenge where had to like read off the teleprompter tiffany and her confessionals leading up she was so over the humiliation she was so ready to go and so there's a lot of context missing about why tiffany was so defeated and tyra tries to make it about you know you're you're a black girl giving up on yourself and like society and the challenges of being black women she even brought it up in the documentary brought up the society and challenges black women and tiffany was going through so much And again, blaming everybody else besides it was you, Tyra, who was terrorizing her for weeks. Tiffany was defeated and wanted to go. There's so much context missing. And even still sitting in the chair, she's still denying all that context. Yeah, that is so well said. And I didn't I did not realize all that context because I didn't rewatch. And I'm okay, so I'm curious your take on this because in the documentary, I had this moment of, oh, it's a reading challenge. And reading out loud is like one of the most terrifying challenges for any, I don't want to say child, but like I'm thinking back to elementary school when you have to like read out loud, how terrifying that is. and also that Tiffany was like, I don't want it. Like if you haven't had tons of practice reading out loud, that is like an extra humiliating to your intellectual, like the idea of you being a smart and good person. That felt like an extra bite. Like it wasn't a modeling challenge. It wasn't walking. It wasn't looks. It was like now prove like your reading comprehension. And all the girls like messed up at it. It's really hard to read a teleprompter. But Tiffany was just, it's also interesting too. Tiffany was like, okay, see you later. And Tyra was like, no come back i'm gonna yell at you she wanted a moment out of her so she wanted to squeeze one last moment out of her and tyra too was a big fan of the angry black hood girl coming into being a princess cinderella character huge fan of that character every season there was at least one angry black girl model in the house every season without fail yeah wow what okay why do you think mr j for how much he hates tyro why didn he out what she said He was like I will never speak out loud the other thing she said to Tiffany I said, why? Secret page. Because he probably got stuff that he's been saying, too. He's also terrible. They're all terrible sitting on that judge's panel. Yeah. No, you're right. I found him to take the least accountability, even though I think it was Miss J who actually took zero accountability. And was still just sitting there fabulous. Like, oh, we love Miss J. Who cares? yeah but i think what i loved about miss j is that he was like a gay black man above six feet tall featured on a reality show and beloved in years when we were like ruPaul's drag race hadn't even found its spark in that year this was incredible representation and i think what i liked is that miss j was like yep i did all that and i think i would rather have that than have tyra be like well production let assault happen but i personally thought that was bad but did nothing like i almost rather be like yeah i did own it we'll respect you more for it yeah yeah okay then let's talk about nigel who was hired because quote they wanted a straight white handsome man and then in the documentary they're like well he is sri lankan white yeah i was like what yeah is white very tan got some type of flavor in him come on yeah it didn't really make me laugh though because that really does harken back to the era where they're like that's fine you're white to us yeah we'll just ignore that you're sri lankan because we have like for some reason think we need a white straight man on the female-based america's next top model show not even the fact that he was a photographer that holds more weight you know that's actually why i think he was there but no right no no apparently not yeah apparently he was and he seems of course to be the only one who went on to have a career he's still a major photographer whereas no one else tyra's not even hosting dancing with the stars she got one season and they said goodbye oh really yeah so she's she seems like a rough one to work with like a nightmare yeah maybe a little bit okay last thing i want to talk about is the dentistry on the show where they forced danny to close her gap in later seasons she's going to create a gap in a white girl's teeth and then another girl they pulled four of her teeth shaved her teeth down and gave her veneers and within those four days she was up and modeling my husband as an adult had his wisdom teeth removed that's a brutal you can't just like stand up the next day and smile and she was in the dentist office for 12 hours and the next day they were like now eat a dead bug and pose or you'll be sent home and she and she was doing it yeah because you didn't pull four teeth out for nothing yeah i thought what they did to danny closing her gap i thought that was one of the cruelest things they've done on the show yeah it's like a permanent physical like the makeovers okay hair can grow can go back hair dye blah blah but yeah truly believe i'm gonna send this child to a back alley dentist to get medical work for my reality and erase her individuality yes and she looks so gorgeous with the gap i don't know why i love the gap and when tyra was talking about even all of the just scandal that she was creating on the show she was talking about the show in competition with shows like fear factor that was and survivor and i was like tyra you're not in competition with those shows those aren't the same people watching a model show of these girls who are going to get a cover girl contract those people don't know yeah yeah totally different and she was really claiming that that was the same people and she was in competition with those shows and she had to take it to the extreme with that and that's why she was ripping people's teeth out yeah such a good point because also yeah she lost sight of the fact that it was a show about modeling which again these other talent-based shows didn't lose sight of it but america's next top model did become fear factor or survivor and this is where she said the quote But we had to go harder each season because you all wanted it. And my favorite thing I saw online was someone replying, we were nine. Yes. Yes. I was a middle schooler. It was my fault. And I was like, oh, this is modeling. Sick. I had no idea. Like, what are you talking about, Tyra? Like, this is. Oh, my God. Okay, so she ends the documentary. She really, to me, the key emotion I felt the most from her was rage. It felt like it was quiet rage with a smile. It was creepy. Because I do think she is like, I went through hell for y'all. I created a show for y'all. I did create change. How dare you take me to court now? That's what I felt from her. And she ends it saying, well, I hope you all will be just as open to change as I have been because it will come for you, too. And that to me felt like a threat. Now you come from on look. Yeah. That's when she feels like a dictator. Yeah. It's like, I have been so open to change. Ma'am, you have gotten worse. You're like whipping ice cream in Australia. Like, no, you're not. What are you talking about? And yeah, I think she really was like, just wait till the thing you created is taken to woke town or whatever. Right. And then she ends it saying, we're going to do season 25. Nobody wants it. Ready. Nobody's asking for it. Do you think she has a contract? Was this happening? Is this something? No. Because I think this is the entire reason. The only reason why she would sit down. Right. And look like shit. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. for three hours. It's to pitch a show. To try to pitch something. It's to pitch a show. I don't think there's no way she could have a contract with somebody. Maybe with Tubi or something. Because Tubi or something like that. You guys, it would go great on Tubi. Tubi's like the number one watch show, watch network. Because it's free. It's in all the hotels. Don't let her on Tubi. Tubi, say no. I know. Maybe there. But the legacy is so disintegrated by this point. oh there's nothing you cannot talk about america's next step model and bring up much positivity to be quite honest who wants to touch that yeah and who's competing who's auditioning also the industry lives online exactly how are you going to right because that was another thing that was crazy that she said that they opened the doors for models who were influenced girl instagram did She was like, we created that. Those girls did that. What are you talking about? Yeah. Adrian Curry from season one gets on reels and is like, fuck Tyra every day. Is that what Tyra did? We created Instagram reels. Yeah. I don't think someone else could come along and be like, it's a modeling competition show because of how the industry has changed, let alone Tyra, who should be behind bars. And the third thing is like, I just don't know how you're going to get Smythe's ice cream into a 25th season. So I don't think this will go well for you. I don't know how you're going to collab ice cream and America's Next Top Model is back. She's delusional. That lady's crazy. Brutal. Brutal. Will you be tuning in for the e-documentary follow-up in March? Sure will. Sure will. Because that one, so you said Janice Dickinson will be on it, I think. Yeah. Is Adrian Curry? And Janice Dickinson was brutal. No, Adrian Curry has said no to everything. But other models I saw was signed to it. Who were not in this documentary will be in that one. I wonder if they're going to talk about Twiggy, who in Sarah Hartshorn's book was the cruelest judge for her. Oh, wow. Yeah. Okay. Right, right. And Janice Dickinson has a quote in the trailer of the upcoming one where she says, like, Tyra destroyed these girls' lives just for her ego. But Janice was pretty mean. Janice, you were a witch. Yeah, you were. like fat shaming any chance you could projecting do like a lot and then she went and created her own modeling competition show so i'm really curious how that will be handled she did have a show i totally forgot about that yeah okay i wish yeah this is less less salacious yeah it was a little bit deeper i wish they treated it like a real documentary you might say yeah right right Exactly. Do you think, that's my final question, do you think Tyra had any creative control in the Netflix documentary? Because why did she do it? Yeah, why did she do it? That's the question. And there's rumors, there's rumors, like Tyra had creative control, so I said no to that one. Or someone said that. But having watched it, I said, impossible. Why would you sign up? Right, you look terrible. But that being said, like, why would you sit down for this if you didn't have some control? Control. she's delusional enough to think she looks yeah i think so i think if you think back on her answers for like the shandy situation she would sit back and say i think i handled that well yeah it's interesting though because the way musicians will often and other people too will put out charlie will put out their own documentary that's actually just like propaganda for revisionist history why did she do that i know this is silly to pitch that to her but i'm like why didn't you you do the documentary and rewrite it and lie right but no yeah no we got a good one i'm just very impressed and curious how it happened and you know what this happened to chelsea with a documentary i've been pushing natasha to watch for years the lulu the lula row you haven't watched i haven't yeah i know i'm saving it for my eternity leave yeah oh yeah that's some good shit yeah okay continue yeah it was like that right those people sat down for four hours holding hands thinking that they were doing lula row well yes during that documentary and they clearly were not but they're so deep in their own like ideas and narcissistic ways and delusion that they think that they look good that's such and that creates the best show of all yeah the best the best well go watch on netflix and go listen to two black girls one rose because okay So you're in the middle of Love is Blind. You're re-watching America's Next Top Model iconic episodes. Anything else you were discussing that the people should flock to? Yeah. We're doing, yeah, Love is Blind, Bridgerton. We're about to wrap up. We're watching Traitors Season 4, which is on now. Any headlines? Are you loving it? Hating it? We're ready for it to be over. This season has been exhausting. It's been a fun watch, but the last two episodes have been like, mm. So that we're currently doing. But we have done old episodes of America's Next Top Model, Catfish. A lot of great, yeah, like nostalgia contents on our YouTube. So, yeah, check us out. So good. So good. Go give them a follow. Go listen to their podcast if you don't already. You two are brilliant and hilarious. And thank you so much for coming on to discuss this horror movie. Jesus. Anytime. A big thank you to our senior managing producer, Christina Lopez, our executive producer, Jordan Moncada, our sound engineer, Marcus Hom, and our amazing associate producer, Jaron Padre. I also want to give a huge thank you to our incredible partners over at Thrive Cosmetics and Every Plate. We will link to those brands in the show notes. Go check them out. Everything else we discussed is also linked in the show notes. And if you have questions, thoughts, comments, go to the Patreon, sign up. There's a free tier you can join. Leave a comment, chat with your fellow cookies. We will keep the book club continuing over there. Thank you.