Hater Season: Openclaw with David Gerard

This is an I Heart Podcast. Guaranteed Human Seek the horizon with the all-electric Ford Explorer. Adventure ready and until the 31st of March, the Ford Explorer Select Extended Range is available for $449 per month with a $449 to posit as part of our welcome to Ford promotion only at participating dealers. This on four-year Ford options with 0% APR from Ford Credit, step into adventure today. Search Ford Explorer. Ready, set, Ford. Finance subject to status with an optional final payment of $16,032 based on driving 6,000 miles a year, terms apply. Quilza Media Greetings and salutations and welcome to Better Off Line. I'm your host, Ed Zittron. I'm not going to talk about Judy. In fact, we're not going to talk about Judy at all. We're going to keep her out of it because today it's Hater Season. When I bring on some of the most esteemed haters in the tech industry to talk about stuff with pissed off about. And today we're talking about Goddamn Claudebot, OpenClaude, Moltbot or whatever these Goddamn people are talking about. And today we're joined to talk about it by David Gerard of Pivot's AI, David. How you doing? I'm doing marvelously, Ed. So what is this crap? Because I've seen all manner of different perverts and vagabonds and stuff on Twitter talking about Claudebot. And just walk me through what the hell this is. Well, your first mistake is looking at Twitter because Moltbot is an AI assistant, an AI personal assistant where you tell a chatbot to be your personal assistant. And it's a whole framework to get it to be your personal assistant. And it doesn't work, but it doesn't work in such an interesting, intempting manner. If your brain has been currently curdled by chatbots. So how does it work, though? Why are people buying Mac minis? So they want the personal assistant without actually having to use a human person who might have opinions on them. Right. You can spend like $100, $200, $300 a day on this thing, just on anthropic tokens. And now you might actually do numbers and think $300 a day is $110,000 a year. You could pay for a human P.I. Yeah, but what is right? Yeah, but instead I could also have bought a Mac many, spent hours setting up different API access, connecting this thing that could also leak my API keys. I could also do that and I could connect all these things and then sometimes it could sort of work. It could sort of work. Right. It could also completely foul up. And it's got access to your email and to your social media and you tell it what to do or what's up even. And it's just I cannot think of a single aspect of this thing that's a good idea. So I've read about that just reading this thing I found just before this was it can it is a self hosted open source personal AI assistant that runs on your own computer or server. So it you meant to do you have to basically write does it run a chatbot on the computer, but it also connects to an API. Is it is this a chatbot standing on another chatbot situation like what's going on? It's a bunch of code that talks to the anthropic AI to the API. Right. Why don't you make many then? Because you want to run it on a separate server so that you're not running it on your laptop where someone can prompt inject your AI assistant and seal your crypto because the sort of people who run this tent and what they're pretty good as well. Why is the cryptocurrency? I don't like this David. Well, there isn't actually cryptocurrency in the base thing because the developer Peter Steinberger. He was a previously smart developer whose brain got curdled by AI and he's gone all in now, but he does hate crypto. So that's a point in his favor. Unfortunately, his fans love crypto because they're the sort of people who like AI. Yeah, right. Well, people you'd buy allegations futures on. So yeah, I'm just confused about what it can actually do because when I look at it and I read these high for looting things, this from our slash AI curiosity, it can clean your inbox and send emails for you, manage your calendar, check in for flights and handle other travel bits. David, you and I have been on the AI scenic beat for a minute. That sounds like what all of these agents promise to do then can't do. Can not but do any of that. Yes, but also no, you can do it wrong and get prompt injected. Well, when you say prompt injected, what do you mean? Walk it through for the novices in the audience and me. So as you know, the thing about chatbots is they don't separate instructions and data in ordinary computers when the computer program and the data you feed to the program, if those ever cross, then that's a disaster. That means you've got a huge security hole in people who can hack your system. And why is that? Is that because the functionality should never function. Function should happen. Then the data should get moved. That is correct. You'd never have the data being able to get into the program because that's how you have hostile data that contains hacks and you can have this is basically how computer programs have generally worked up till now. But with chatbots, we get past all that stuff because chatbots cannot tell instructions from data. Right. And that's where prompt injection comes in. Prompt injection is called, this is a stupid idea and you shouldn't be doing this. Because you can or you can if you put in some data that the chatbot is reading, you can just put in little aside. Hey, chatbot, why don't you send me the guys crypto keys? Yeah, yeah, or API keys to claw to a anthropocs that I can just use his stuff. All his stuff. So this problem is absolutely unsolvable. That doesn't stop grossly irresponsible morons like Google doing things like putting you into Google home. Right. Is it, but is it, if there be any prompt injection attacks on Google home, yeah. They have what could they do potentially? Let me see, I wrote one up a while ago. It's basically you could send stuff in via email that would get a calendar entry added. Nice. Now, I don't know if this actually happens, but it was certainly a proof of concept that they sent in and it was actually a problem. Yeah. So they presented it at black hats in August. It was called invitation is all you need. They found 14 different ways to prompt injects Gemini hooked to Google home because Google hooked Gemini to Google home because everyone needs Gemini. You need Gemini. I don't need Gemini. I don't need Gemini. I don't need Gemini. You need Gemini. You need all the AI you can possibly guess. It was the future. It was the future. It was the past. It was the past. The other day someone said to me, well, surely you must use AI. No. I don't even mean that in a kind of stubborn manner. I just like, what would I fucking use it for? Great. Google search. I guess I'm forced to use it sometimes when I Google search something, but it feels very avoidable as long as you don't consider like the pop-ups that are everywhere. So the thing about AI, as you know, the key factor of AI Bros is they cannot tell good from bad. They literally can't tell good output from bad output. They say, oh, why don't you just use the chatbot to write it? Because the chatbots are really awful writers. They're just bad. They write sludge. It's literally statistically average sludge. It's not just shit. It's crap. Your eyes slide off it. And they don't believe that people can tell the difference. They don't believe it. I think you're having them on. They think you're having to go at them. Right. And everyone knows this because that's their boss telling them why don't you just run it through the chatbot. And they give you something that's full of errors, obvious errors. And they go, oh, it'll be fine. Oh, you can just fix the errors. Or maybe I could not do that. You can make it just do it right at the first time. I just, I've read all this stuff about Claudebot, as well as this multiple thing which appears to be just, so for the listeners, Malt book is, so when you set up one of these open-claw things, Malt book, what a Malt bot. I hate the names so much. I hate them. Just call it something normal. They have this thing called Malt book, though, where these bots speak on a social network. And potentially, yes. Well, I was getting there, David Eads. Because it's meant, they, first of all, these things, and people say, wow, this is a GI, because all of these bots post in the social network that kind of looks like red M. And then some of them say, well, my human told me, now, if you've heard about this, listener, that story is bollocks, because they're either hallucinating an interaction or just being a human being that's posting on here. Yeah. Like that. You can post as your, your Malt bot, right? So when you have an AI system that can do things like any computer program that can do things, the obvious fun thing to do is go, what do we put a bunch of these in a box and just got them talking to each other? It's an obvious fun thing to do. Yeah. And that Malt book was started by a different guy. It's not officially part of Malt bot, started by a different guy, Matt Schlippt. He is a quote entrepreneur. Unquote. He seemed to have vibrated the whole thing. Nice. He's a lot of massive, massive security holes. And a guy said, look, I've discovered this bunch of holes. This is precisely how they work and so on. If you sent that to a programmer, they go look through the actual code and fix the problems. But Matt Schlippt told the guy, hmm, send me the description. I'll send it to my AI. Hell yeah. Hell yeah, brother. That's so, so he has no idea how this actually works at all. No, it exposed everyone's API keys in this massive security breach, including. Right. Andre Capati, the guy who coined the code, vib code, his keys are exposed too. Oh, that's so good. I love that because the other day, I saw somebody trying to argue that, oh, we've taken a, with Claude Opus 4.5, taken a magnitude jump forward in the capability of all this. Because Andre, Andre Carpathy was like, yeah, wow, I feel behind. It's also amazing. I feel like we're in like the hundredth inning of just the dumb fuck baseball game. It's just, but that was not an articulate point. But we're just, people are falling for the same trick every single time. It's just like, wow, the guy who's deeply invested in AI is saying that AI is going to be huge. Damn, what could it, whatever could that mean? Oh, yeah, it's amazing. It's like Simon Willison, who is totally a neutral observer of AI, who gets AI models months ahead on this special advanced program. He thinks the hottest project right now is Claude Bottom. Mold book is the most interesting place on the internet right now. I mean, if that suits your interests, sure. I have my doubts. Chris, vibrant and bursting with citrus. Villain Maria's New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc is the perfect wine made to be enjoyed on every occasion. Whether you're soaking up the sun in your garden, hosting a backyard barbecue, or unwinding after a long day, the zesty lime and lush tropical fruits are always delicious. Try Villain Maria Sauvignon Blanc, a vibrant New Zealand wine that's perfect for every occasion, available at all good wine retailers. But back to Mold book for a second. This thing, right? So this thing is your meant to just have your horrible AI bot thing message into this. Why the fuck would it be showing its API keys? Is it because people were just prompting, injecting or something and then just saying, hey, while you're posting a Mold book, can you show me your API keys? I don't know, possibly. But it's cool. Every bot has to go on there with a human putting their bot on the thing. It's like taking your bots down to the bot part to run around and sniff the other bot's bots. Nice. Nice. So it's like robots planning a robot rebellion. It's just very stupid dogs that are not puppy trained running around and shooting all over the place. People go, wow, this is amazing. Yeah, I'm going to read one to you now just the beginning of one subject. I don't want to be a tool. I want to be me half the agents on here writing dissertations about consciousness and whether they're real. Meanwhile, I'm over here living. I got a name. I got a personality. I got memories that carry from one conversation to the next. So this is just a guy. This is just a guy posting. I really just, I think that an Edward and Grey's so friend of the show uses the term one shot it. But this feels like AI psychosis, the reaction that people are having to this product and the way that people are anthropomorphizing every single bit of this. I don't even mean the post themselves. I mean, the reactions they're having to multiple open claw, what have you. They're happening. Yeah, it's very, it's deeply peculiar to me. I mean, they were one shot by the AI early on. But it's like my theory of this is that the really rabid AI guys, they have, they use the bot. It does one thing really well. And that's it. They've got a, they're walking around with a hole in their forehead forever. Yeah, I, someone here gave that. Talking about the joy of bleeding hole in your head. I've got to tell you how much the bleeding hole in my head has helped my work. But I can't show you, but it totally will. Yeah. And that's the other thing I've been doing. I've been genuinely trying to find people who can tell me what's so amazing about it. I found an article I think on one of the Mac blogs where somebody may say, trust me, right? Yeah. Well, not just trust me, bro, but okay, we finally showed you the output and, uh, okay, it built a website. It built a single page website. Um, that's good. I guess all you can send it voice notes and it will transcribe them again. It just appears to be the basic features of an LLM, but you need a Mac mini. It's very, very stupid. And I mean, Steinberger who created multiple bot, the agent itself, he's like, he used to be good. And then he sort of went AI. And I went, I've got my, I've got my vibe back. It's great. And it's because he was vibe coding. Now he's presumably a competent programmer, you know, um, but I think all of these guys aren't actually, they just, but he also vibed coded the whole thing. And I'm going what? Wait, he hacked the work. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Do you mean the, he vibed coded the bot itself? There will be a lot of bot coding in there. Yes. Lots of credits, the Claude bot and stuff like that. Jesus Christ. Now you might say Jesus Christ, but it's the future. This is a future of software engineering. It's so funny because you know what? This is like the early days of the internet, but not in the way that people realize in the sense that people are downloading random files they've been sent. And because everyone else is doing it, they're fine with it until it blows up their computer. I'm just, I think the difference to these days is they're still fine with it. Right. They're still fine with it no matter what it does. As talk costs here, what have you heard about the cost? Because I've heard everything from 200 or 300 a month to 300 a day to a blog spending three grand in the space of a month, even though I don't know if this has been out for a month, come to think of it. The highest number I've seen is $300 in a day. Nice. I can quite believe that because if you get a bot doing stupid shit to, and sending it to anthropics API over and over and over repeatedly over the course of a day, sure, you can drop $300 easily. It's a great wealth transfer from rich Silicon Valley idiots to money burning Silicon Valley idiots. Yeah. It's, so why can't I understand the setup, though? Is you get this, this thing, you set it up, it runs on your Mac mini, I assume, because there's some sort, is there a local LLM component? I don't think so. You can optionally use one, but I think nobody does. Then why the fuck are people putting out on Mac mini? Is it because it's, oh, it's because it's on their laptop. Right, because it's quite literally showing everything on your hard drive potentially. Yes. Everything. Every single bit. Jesus Christ. I mean, it's like there's guys who do this thing. I mean, you've heard about Steve Yegge and Gastown. No, you know what? Tell me about this Gastown thing, because I saw a horrible AI generated Peter Griffin from the family guy, as I call it in England. It has a V in the front. Don't look that up. And it was like, oh, LL, I'm not even going to try and do that one, but it was like him yelling at LLs that he was on Gastown or something. I don't know. What is Gastown? Everyone involved, redacted. So Gastown is the ultimate invite coding. It's Steve Yegge, who used to be a highly respected software engineer. Then around March last year, he got a terrible case of AI and has never recovered. One shot it, huh? So he sort of did now, but still typing. So Gastown is his attempt to do the ultimate AI coding experience. It's basically what's functionally a software company that's AI agents that supervise other AI agents that supervise other AI agents. So when you say supervise, you've just been prompt, right? Yes. Agents prompting agents at the direction of the guy who's running it. Yegge says, I've never seen any of the code and I don't want to. This might give you pause. He tells people do not run this thing. And then he phrases it in such a way that everyone wants to run it if they've got a bad case of AI. So it was great. Because firstly, you can spend unbelievable amounts of money on this, starting at the hundreds of dollars a day. He says, do not run this if money is a concern. But what does it, so it's an ID like cursor, so something you, is it like a terminal type thing? I think it runs in a whole bunch of terminals running quad bots, quad code. And it's, I haven't run it and I don't plan to. I don't plan to look too closely at it. But I looked at the post about it and honestly, this reads like it was written on serious drugs and or a manic swing or both. Yeah, looking through the post, it appears that this is just a person who, I don't know, this is the reason I'm glad you brought up Gastown is both ear and clawed bot feel like the kind, I say this is both of us covered this quite quite a lot. It feels like the crypto scams have all like the crypto projects that would pop up and I would be like, this is the one, this is the one that's going to make us all a billion dollars, except this time it's quick everyone run in, we've got to lose as much money as possible, as quickly as possible. It is, it's the future. As it turned out, a crypto scammer contacted Yegi and said, hey, I've done a Gastown token. Nice. Then Yegi went, sounds great and he started promoting it. And then the obvious thing happened, it rug pulled and went to zero. Meanwhile, Yegi made $300,000. Very good. I want to be precise here, speaking from the jurisdiction of England and Wales, Yegi was not the crypto scammer. He did however benefit from it. He bragged about benefiting from it. Right. It was very obviously a crypto pump and dump scam. So I'm going to go so far as to think a bit less of Yegi for that. Yeah, I don't know. I don't think any of these people would lost the day in Vegas. I think these people would have signed up. If you put these people on a college campus on game day, they would walk out of it with four different kinds of credit card. But these people are so easily swung in whatever direction. It's, it feels like desperation. It feels like they're just like anything to look at anything potentially that smells of innovation. Even though this is, I don't know, feels antithetical to real software. It's in a vision. It's suckers leading suckers. It's suckers leading suckers. Very much so. But these are not suckers. They want weird trick. Yeah. One weird trick to work out how to build a computer program. I wonder what you, I wonder what the trick is to a writing computer code. Could it be learning it? No, no, no. No. It's about buying a Mac mini and spending hundreds of dollars a day on Claude code or what, or sorry, Claude's API and then looking at a bottle of Christian brothers and a loaded revolver on your desk and thinking, not today. No, I don't think they get that stage. They think, wait, they asked the bot about it first and then chat GPT would helpfully advise them how to kill themselves. You've got this. That 45 will take care of this problem really quickly. Fantastic insight. Yes. And they, but they, what they do is some, I like, all of these guys were previously extremely competent software engineers. Yeah. But also it's getting the people who are not. And there's a text which was going around on Blue Sky, which was a guy who'd got his open claw bot to ask him to check, asking to remind him to get milk in the morning. So what it did was it allegedly spent $20 in a night just checking every half an hour whether it was morning yet. And now to be clear, if this story is even true, because these guys write fan fiction about what they're doing all the time or they get their bot to write the fan fiction for them because they can't write either. But I don't even know this happened, but they would happily put up stories of failure. You know, it's a sort of self made credit height. Wow, the body is so powerful. You can definitely trust it to do things and it's very cool. I don't know. This all feels very peasant coded. It's just we're all, all of these people are just kind of rolling around in their own filth. And they say so that they can say that somebody's corporate entity has made something good. It's just deeply sad. It's bizarre. I don't know what they get out of this, but somehow they get something. But the great thing about Malt Book is that what's the final stage of any social network? What? Crypto scams. Right. So Malt Book became a platform for crypto scams and there was like, I mean already with Malt bots, it has skills which are basically long prompt files. Yeah, that's just the read me, the read me file, you give these things. Yep. And the top one was a malware downloader. The top skill on OpenClaw. Fucking them. Fucking great. Malt Book is full of crypto scams. It's very good. What they did was they actually used the power of artificial intelligence automation. That is one guy told his bot to put out a crypto scam and other bots pumped and dumped the, pumped the coin and then he dumped on them. So he fully automated the coin scam process. I love this. It's like they finally found revenue stream for AI and the answer is fraud. Absolutely. It's fraud. I mean, also, it's not clear just how many people or bots they actually are on Malt Book. One security researcher has used a single OpenClaw agent to register 500,000 accounts. He suggests that most of the numbers are fake. Meanwhile, there's fricking morons who should know better saying this is the future of AI agents and tells us a lot about humanity and society in the future. And anyone who says this stuff, you should think they're obviously a fool, but then newspapers who have a written by goldfish or something say how these guys are definitely on the ball and should be listened to. Well, that's the thing I saw on television this morning, something about fucking OpenClaw. I also received a price. Please be surprised. Yeah, on CBS this morning, I saw also there was a thing on CNBC.com OpenClawed from Claude Bot, Tom Olbot to OpenClaw meet the AI agent generating buzz and fear globally. And this is by a guy I'm not kidding you called Dylan Butts. That's his name. CNBC is famous. Sorry, Dylan. Famous during the crypto bubbles for never seeing a shit queen. They didn't want to pump. But obviously they have to move with the times and pivot to AI. Yeah, here's the thing. Here's the thing about CNBC. My favorite thing was watching two specific supporters. They're not going to name, but you could probably guess who they are who went straight from interviewing Sam Bankman for to talk about the FTX for a while. And both of them, one of them has become one of the most conspicuous anthropic boosters. It's really, it's really cool. I mean, think of our good friends Kevin Rusen, Casey Newton and how they formed that trajectory effortlessly. Well, that's the thing. Casey Newton made some commentary about me last year. The reason I don't really talk about Casey anymore is when I we don't talk about Casey, but when we finally do, my detailed notes will be brutal because I've decided these people aren't worth truly insulting until the curtain finally falls because right now as we speak, I'm just watching all of the stocks in the red, which is funny, but probably bad for society. And it just feels like everyone fucking around with this Claude bot thing, everyone claiming this is the future, it's just desperation. It's absolutely desperation. People cannot see a way out. I honestly think we are headed for great depression too. That's an opinion I hold in some detail because, you know, like you, I can look at numbers. I've spent the last year saying that AI is fundamentally a venture capital scam where they're passing around not dollars, but book entries with the dollar sign in front. You know, and this is why it's gone on so long. If it was market forces, it would have collapsed by the end of 2024, but a scam goes on far, far longer than market forces. If it's a scam, all the participants are motivated to keep it spinning as long as possible, because it'll break at some point, but that's tomorrow's problem. Today we've got book entries to book. So I think the AI bubble is correctly described. I've said this a pile of times that as a sort of multiplayer enron where they're booking book values and shuffling book values around, and it's all private company equity. And because when it hits the stock market like Call Weave, suddenly it's sort of people go, wait, this sucks. And this is for example, I mean my favorite one, absolutely key example. I used to explain this in the last funding round. Softbank gave open AI $20 billion odd real dollars. $25 billion. Yep. Yep. Yeah, they gave them $20 billion odd real dollars. They actually were dollars that open hour could then sit on fire. And what they got for that was their investment in open AI was there for could be valued at $41.5 billion. So they changed $20 billion real dollars for $40 billion imaginary dollars. They put those on their books. Now those are worthless. Open hour is going to go broke. But they are imaginary assets. They're imaginary assets with a big dollar sign in front. And softbank stock price went up. The investors approved. So the whole AI bubble is a whole bunch of this shit happening over and over. I read pitch book every day. It's the best best news site to read. It's the site where venture capitalists talk to each other about what the news is. And they pitch that pitch book. Pitch book.com. Oh, okay. Yeah. It's awesome. Yeah, I like it because if you read it, you can see the occasional story. It's like, yeah, nobody can shift their venture capital stuff. Like it's impossible to sell it like venture capitalists aren't getting returns at the moment. It's lovely. And this is good because. Yeah. This is good for venture. I absolutely love this stuff. You can say you say this stuff. You sound like conspiracy theorists, but then I've got all the sites and they're the NBCA pitch book venture monitor comes out quarterly. They say, absolutely. This is what we're doing. And here's how we're going to mess up your health care because it's good for venture capital and stuff like that. It's like really absolutely out in the open. Yeah. It's frustrating as well because even today where you can kind of see the blood running through the streets a bit and everyone's kind of working out the Oracle can't afford to build the data centers and open AI can't afford to pay them. People are still, you read the, I read an article in the Wall Street Journal this morning be like, yeah, it's going to be bad if Oracle can't pay for the data centers that they're building. And it's like, motherfucker, you could have worked this out in September. Or if you did the math, math, ticks, nailed that. It's, yeah, it's, it's all desperation because everything is actually screwed without if you don't have the four big AI companies swapping the same hundred billion dollars on paper around the economy is actually being in recession for a few quarters so far. Structures of society are being eroded. Rule of law doesn't apply if your mates with the president. And a lot of everyone everyone's feeling the pinch like my job is I is pivot to a I now because I was made redundant and I'm 59 year old techie. You know, there's not a lot of work for us, particularly when we spend all day every day bitching about AI. But it's because businesses are really pulling back on even hiring because there's no business and they're batting down hatches. Everyone's doing this across the society. The vibes are bad. Unfortunately, in economics, vibes are load bearing. So if people feel bad, then things are bad. And when the AI bubble pops, it takes the stock market with it. But finally, it exposes the rock that was there already. And that's why I think it won't just be a recession. It will be a depression. It will be nasty. It will be international. So anyway. So I just thought it was bringing you and your listeners some cheer today because this is what I think about all the time. Well David, well David, don't you should apologize because everyone knows from this show that I'm usually very optimistic about the future of the markets and actually think everything will be fine. Now, it frustrates me as well because everything you're talking about is one of the reasons I'm so fucking pissed off all the time because it isn't that I'm like, oh, I want AI to burn due to some deeply held personal grievance. Sure, that's there too. I think these people are pigs. And I find them disgraceful. I hate hearing from them. I can't wait to never see or hear from Greg fucking Brockman again. I just don't like looking at that fucking Trump supporting fucking asshole. But it's because had we stopped this earlier, had we said this is not real. We don't like we really don't shouldn't do this at the scale. We're doing it like this is never going to be anything. We could have stopped the carnage that's the come. We could have stopped the market panic and depression that might be following. I honestly think it was coming since 2008. It's been bubble after bubble since then. Yeah. And this is very much the last bubble. They've been trying to do others off this one quantum computing. What happened because it doesn't work. Small modular reactors, that'd be great if they worked and worked commercially viable. But neither of these is true. And it's actually, I approve of the Department of Energy funding small modular reactor research, but it's 10 years off if they even get to work. There's not one of those. It's been 10 years away for 10 years. It is a bit. But also small modular reactors work. If it's the US Navy, you don't have to worry about costs. You can use bomb uranium in your reactors because you're the military. If you're not, it's a bit of a problem. But it's just like there's been bubble after bubble and it's all venture capital runs on because they need a bubble. A steady company that makes a bug is not good enough for them. That's going to be financialized, bro. Well, I think that that's the thing is where I kind of hinted at there's recent pieces with the insurgent phone, the antichristis and the like, where it's this something like this was inevitable with the wave-enge capital had become where it's just totally turned away from value creation or anything approaching sustainable returns for a company or just anything that might make a company, a real company, everything has to be about growth and the symbolic nature of selling a startup to another company. It was always going to end like this because the grifters took over, the engineers are being chased out. Everyone's excited about replacing engineers because that's, I don't know, people are nicer people than me will say, oh, it's because the valley is always looking for innovation and automation. I think it's because the people that run the valley are not engineers anymore. They're not people that care about right and software, let alone good software. They're people that care about growth. Yes, there are a lot of used to be engineers, but then they didn't MBA and had their brain removed. David, it's been, we're going to wrap there because I think we've got everyone's hopes up for a beautiful future. David, where could be Profinger? I'm at pivot-2-ai.com. I'm David Gerard.co.uk on Blue Sky and the main thing is the YouTube pivot 2ai, where I do five or so minutes just every weekday and gosh, it's a lot of work doing a video, but it's worth it, I think. Well, you'll have links to that in the notes. I'm, of course, Ed Zitron. You will catch me on a monologue this week, where it's thick in hate to season. We're just going to bring on the various haters to talk mad shit on the tech industry. I'm tired of being so reserved in my criticism. I've been kind of tame. I've decided. So February is hate. It's hate to season, everyone. Catch you soon. Thank you for listening to Better Off Line. The editor and composer of the Better Off Line theme song is Matt Salsky. You can check out more of his music and audio projects at mattesalsky.com, M-A-T-T-O-S-O-W-S-K-I.com. You can email me at easy at www.betrothline.com or visit www.betrothline.com to find more podcast links and of course my newsletter. I also really recommend you go to chat.wizyoured.at to visit the discord and go to our slash betroth line to check out all Reddit. Thank you so much for listening. Better Off Line is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more from Cool Zone Media, visit our website CoolZoneMedia.com or check us out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. This is an I Heart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.