Mayo is Spanish! José Andrés Speaks Out

This is Milk Street Radio from PRX and I'm your host, Christopher Kimball. Jose Andres is back. Today he tells us what he really thinks. For example, if you're at a restaurant that has churros on the dessert menu, please walk out. Churros in a restaurant is not something traditionally you will see. That's done in another moment, in another part of the sequence of life. But Jose says anything invented in France was probably Spanish first. I am Jose Andres and I endorse this message. Jose Andres takes us to Spain that's coming up later in the show. But first we're traveling with Trevor Warmedal. Trevor is a nomadic cheese maker who apprentices in pastoral communities around the world. His adventures started in Mongolia where he spent 11 days in the valley of the Yaks. I had the opportunity to go to Mongolia to manage a small cheese plant outside of Ulan Bater, the capital. After spending 10 years making cheese commercially in the US for various companies, which resulted in me becoming increasingly fed up with the lack of natural approaches to cheese making. I was seeking to learn what cheese could be without that paradigm. The cheese plant itself, the job, I quickly realized this company was kind of mimicking the practices I was attempting to move away from. Basically making European style cheeses using commercial starter cultures. And I decided to leave the job and just go travel in the countryside knowing that there was this vast amount of cultural knowledge around milk fermentation and the raising of livestock. The way it worked out was very serendipitous. I met a Mongolian woman named Burma whose family heard Yaks in the countryside. And while I was staying there every morning, I'd get up and join the family for their morning chores. Like so many people who are involved in dairying, there's a very regular, almost ritualized daily routine that begins before sunrise with the milking of the animals. The boiled milk would be aerated by dropping the milk on itself, like scooping it up and dropping it. And that would be the first food that is consumed. And one of the most delicious ones, it's like a thick cream. You could grab it with your hand, plop it on a dish, and we would eat that for breakfast, like with biscuits. And it was amazing. Then with this partially reduced fat milk, they would turn that into yogurt and make this range of foods from yogurt that I had never seen before where they would boil the yogurt and cook moisture out of it until it was like a thick batter, which would be drained and dehydrated in the sun. This was like a traditional folk knowledge that was just being followed. And it worked. It worked really well, and it created foods that were a product of their place. In the camp where I was staying, there was the main family, and then next door there was a single man, and they were kind of together managing these herds. And one day I had the opportunity to join him as he went out on the daily overseeing of the animals while they're grazing. We were both on horseback, and the large herd of three or four hundred sheep and goats were kind of grazing close to home, and we began pushing them up into a side valley. We sat down there, and he just started singing. But it was just a beautiful and kind of eerie moment. The horses have their tack jangling as they eat grass, and the wind is gently blowing, and we're just watching this herd of animals. When I look back at my experience in Mongolia, I recall the acoustic environment of this camp in the Valley of the Yaks. I hear children laughing. I hear animals being milked, the sound of the milk hitting the pail. I hear the grunting of the yaks, this very distinctive sound that they make, and it represents to me the integration that is possible between humans and their landscapes. The cheeses in themselves were what kind of captivated me and what I was driven to focus on, but I quickly realized that the cheeses were never being made in isolation. It's like creating this big, multi-layered symphony of interactions and impacts, and that this represents what we're capable of. Recalling those sounds takes me back to the optimism and the sense of a new world opening up that I was just stepping into. That was Trevor Wormadal. He's the author of Cheese Trekking. He also writes the sub-stack, Milk Trekker. Now it's time to answer your cooking questions with my co-host, Sarah Moulton. Sarah is, of course, the star of Sarah's weeknight meals on public television, also author of Home Cooking 101. Well, hello, Chris. How are you today? I'm good. Are you ready to take a couple of calls? Absolutely. Welcome to Milk Street. Who's calling? Hi, my name is Jennifer from Hartford, Connecticut. Hi, Jennifer. How can we help you? Thank you so much for taking my call. So I have been on a bit of a carnitas deep dive. A favorite restaurant nearby served this amazing dish of carnitas, and they took it off their menu. I was able to get my hands on the list of ingredients, but not at all kind of the process for cooking them. And so I have some questions, and I'm hoping you can help me unpack this, Mr. I've tried and failed a few times. Okay. In particular, the ingredients mention a pork cure with pink curing salt. And so when I tried to research that a little bit, I got intimidated because it looks like you have to be kind of careful with curing salt. Is that necessary for the flavor? If I left that part out, would it impact it? But if I did want to use it, is it a rub? Is it a brine? Wow. That is sort of weird, isn't it now? That's usually used as a preservative. And why would you need that in something that's essentially a stew? It's pork butt cut into cubes, cooked with other ingredients till it's tender, tender, tender, and then sort of shredded and then crisped. I have no idea. Tell me what else was in it. Sure. The list of ingredients we got, it says pork cure, pink curing salt, oregano, bay leaves, oranges, onions, mentecta, sweetened condensed milk, gluten-free beer. If I let this curing salt out, which I'm trying to do, I just, I'm also trying to figure out how those ingredients kind of come together because it's a kind of a motley crew. You're not kidding. Yeah. Sweetened condensed milk and gluten-free beer, that's interesting. I think they try and make a lot of their items gluten-free. I did figure out that I believe they're using the Medello Negro beer. So you have tried to make this recipe without the pink curing salt? I have. And I didn't use the mentecta either, which mine turned out very dry. So I'm wondering if I go back and actually get the mentecta lard. Obviously, I don't have kind of how much of each item. So I mean, do you dump the whole can of that in there with the beer and the mentecta? Oh my God. This sounds to me like someone mixed up two recipes, flan and carnitas. Why would anybody put sweetened condensed milk? I guess there's a reason, but I've never seen it. Well, you know, you can think about, I mean, I'm thinking about the Italian recipe by Marcella Hazan, which is pork that's braised in milk. But also, Patti Yenich uses sweetened condensed milk in her recipe. I found her recipe as well. Yeah. I mean, I've really been on like a five year search for how to make these. Well, definitely you need to put some fat back in there. Don't trim the pork butt. You know, make it leave its fat. You need fat for flavor and moisture. And you definitely need the salt, even if you don't use the curing salt, salt is very important here. I was in Oaxaca a couple of years ago and we made this recipe. And I find in Mexico, they almost always cook the meat separately. They put in a pressure cooker, which they love. And they'll cook chicken, they'll cook pork, whatever. They cook it without seasonings. So on the table when we were cooking this outside on a wood fire, they had a bowl of cooked shredded pork. Then they had herbs and they had onions and the other things. And they got a big skillet and they put in the mantek and they put the lard in and they got the sofrito going, right? And then they added the pork. The pork was already cooked. So they finished it up with the hot lard and all the other flavorings and cooked it and crisped it up in the pan. And it was very simple to do. It didn't take a lot of time. You didn't have to sit there cooking the pork forever. That was already done in the pressure cooker. That methodology of pre-cooking the meat and finishing it up with all the flavorful ingredients with lard or oil, that's an easy way to do this recipe. This is not a hard recipe. The pressure cooker will take maybe an hour when you get the pork done. Jennifer, do you have a pressure cooker? I do, like an Instapod? Yeah, Instapod. I have an Instapod. Yeah, pre-cook the pork in the Instapod. Take it out, trim it. Then in a big scallop or Dutch oven, get the lard or oil, get the sofrito going, whatever you're going to cook it with. Add the pork, cook it, the flavor it, then throw it on a sheet tray under a broiler or finish it with pretty high heat in the skillet and you're done. But the broiler does a great job. Chris in Mexico, did they add orange juice? No. But she certainly could. I mean, she's trying to replicate the one that she liked. Yeah, I'm just talking about the basic methodology. I would look at Patty's recipe. She's a great cook. Carnitas can be a very difficult, painful recipe to make. I'm just talking about a way to do it simpler. That's really helpful. Okay, and I think that would save me a few steps and then I could really focus on getting the flavoring after it's already cooked. Okay, well, you're going to have to tell us how it goes. Let us know. I will. Thank you both for helping with this mystery. Okay, bye-bye. Bye-bye. This is Mill Street Radio. If you're struggling with a recipe, please call us 855-426-9843. 855-426-9843 or just email us at questions at Milk Street Radio.com. Welcome to Milk Street. Who's calling? It's Oliver Camacho from Chicago. Hi, how are you? I love Chicago. I know we actually met at your live event in Skokie. I'm the one that made an omelet and sang for the Skokie audience. Oh, yeah. I remember you. Didn't you used to sing opera or something? I still may do that. You had an amazing voice. That's very nice of you to say. I do remember that. That was one of the best evenings ever. It was great. Well, I have a serious problem that I need to talk to you about. Okay. So I love these giant mala beans and I buy them dried. And I don't know how long to soak them because every time I cook them, without fail, I get this little sprout that grows. When I cook it, it looks like there are maggots floating in the liqueur. And I've tried to soak them for less time. I've tried to cook them until they're just ready. Wait, wait, wait. So how long are you soaking them? Until they plump up. So it could be anywhere between four to eight hours. Sometimes I go overnight if I'm thinking ahead. And then you're just simmering them in water until they're tender. Gently. Until they're beautiful. Yes. I don't know. I've done this many times. I mean, maybe these, are you getting the lime of beans from where? Are these really old? From the grocery store. I mean, yeah, I know that's the question you always ask. Are they old? I do not tell if they're old or not. I mean, they're sometimes dirty. I don't know where else to get them besides the grocery store. Well, the place to get your dried beans is Rancho Gordo. You get them online. And I bought some from them and I've never had that problem. You're not doing anything wrong. I just think that the beans are old and sprouty. I just kind of believe it's the beans. I mean, Sarah, you have any other thoughts? Well, let me ask you a question. When you say sprouty, is it literally like something that looks like it's, you know, like a tiny little tail, really, really small, smaller than a rice kernel, but it looks so much like a maggot. But it's not actually a sprout. No, it's coming from where the stem would be. Right. Exactly. So it's just part of the lima bean. It's not anything that actually grew when you were soaking it. Okay. If you say so, I don't know that for a fact, but that's fine. No, what you said, okay. Well, I don't know. I wasn't there. I wasn't at the scene of the crime. I don't want to argue with you because I love you so much. Oh, you're a sweetie pie. But I mean, soaking for four to eight hours or overnight, you know, and also, by the way, I hope you put salt in the water because that's important when you're cooking dried beans. But I thought you don't put the salt in until near the end. No, no, no. That's an old wives myth. Oh my God, I'm an old wife. Oh no, I'm not saying that. Are you guys like secretly married or something? I know, really. This sounds like a marriage argument. Yeah. No, salting the beans makes the skin more tender when you actually cook them and also it seasons them. So they're deeply seasoned, nicely seasoned. It is true though. I used to say, don't salt the water when you soak them overnight, years ago. And now I say, always salt the water. Yeah, of course. No, so many things have changed. If you wait long enough, it'll change again. But I don't think this one will. It's really horrifying because the beans themselves come out to be so delicious. I find myself going at the tiny little chopsticks and trying to pick out these little things that really look like something you don't want in your food. Can I ask a really horrible question? Are they squirming when they come out of the beans? They're not. No, no, they're clearly not maggots. But at first glance, like, oh my God, you're serving me maggots. You got me. I've never seen that happen. Get them from Rancho Gordo, soak them overnight with some salt. But the question we've not answered is, what is it? What is that thing? Can you over soak a bean? Is that a thing? I've tried to stop the soaking before they form and I boiled them and then I still get some of them. I think we need to call our science guy here. Yeah, this is beyond us. This is like a Halloween episode. Yeah. I read the bean book. I bought it, Cool Beans, based on your recommendation. I love it. But he doesn't talk at all about over soaking. I'm going to get Rancho Gordo beans because I love Rancho Gordo. I'm going to get my other beans and I'm going to take a picture of this. Can you do that? Because we'd like to know. I think we need to continue this conversation. Yeah. All right, Oliver, you stumped us. Two bean updated. Okay. Two bean updated. Thank you all. All right. Thank you. So long. You're listening to Milk Street Radio. Up next, Jose Andres teaches us the Spanish way. This is Milk Street Radio. I'm your host, Christopher Kimball. Jose Andres does it all. Since starting World Central Kitchen in 2010, he and that organization have served over 600 million meals around the world. He also owns more than 40 restaurants. And now, well, he's coming out with a new cookbook called Spain My Way. Jose, welcome. Welcome back to Milk Street. I'm so happy to be here with you again, Chris. Now, the last time we talked, you didn't have 40 restaurants. I think you had 20 something. You served 600 million meals around the world, World Central Kitchen. And growing. And growing. And so how do you manage your time? This serious question. How do you do so much? Yeah, I mean, sometimes probably regret I've done so much because I want to be here, but then I need to be there. And I want to be there, but I need to be here. So you know, I make sure I balance my free time with my hobby time, with my business time. But for me, it's all the same. Cooking is the way I've always been happy. And feeding others is the way I'm the happiest. We talked about this at the time, but I think you tried to bring in food to Gaza from the water. Could you just talk about that? Like, what was your plan and what were the challenges? Well, we deliver food twice by boat in very difficult conditions. With no machinery, we could bring in and use using whatever we have there. But the purpose was clear. We had to be bringing food to the north. We had to be bringing food to two people that were going hungry. And we were never taken as an answer. And on the day of the second mission is when the seven members of Walls-Enterra Kitchen perish by the drone attack by the IDF. Obviously, this was a day that forever will be with me. And the message is very clear. Conflicts should not happen worse, should not happen, and especially civilians, humanitarians. Hospitals, doctors, schools, press, they can never be victims in a conflict. They can never be target. It's never excuse to target innocent human life. And that's all I have to say about this. So you're involved with this massive humanitarian effort, as you said, 600 million meals and counting. And at the same time, you have all these restaurants and you're serving people food. It seems like the span of your interests and your energy is from the very worst of humanity, right, in some ways to the very best because cooking for other people is one of the best things we could do as humans. But they somehow, those things go together for you in some way. I think we're close to a billion meals now because only in between Ukraine and Gastalon we've done more than 650 million meals together. So the numbers are just staggering in how this organization keeps growing. In Ukraine, it was almost 300 days in and out. But let me tell you what I keep going. When I go, I see that in the worst moments of humanity, always the best of humanity shows up. In America, when it's a tornado, when it's a hurricane or the fires in Altadena and Palisades, there you don't see Republicans, there you don't see Democrats, there you don't see religions. There you see people helping people and going the extra mile to bring hope to others in the middle of the mayhem. And I think that's what keeps me going. Let's turn to food for a second. You know, I think you write in your book, Spain My Way, anything claimed to have been invented in France was probably originally made in Spain, which I love. But you said mayonnaise is actually based on Mahon. And so the word mayonnaise is a Spanish origin. Yeah. And mayonnaise is one that for Spain, obviously the connection with Mahon Israel, that is the capital of Menorca, if you've never been, is in the Balearic Islands, in the Mediterranean, beautiful place, a place you will want to be born and probably you will want to retire. And the story will say that the French forces capture Mahon under the Duke of Richelieu. It seems that the the the chef of Richelieu, they are in Mahon itself, got the egg yolk and the oil because, you know, traditionally French will do it with butter or will do it with cream, but was no butter or cream available. But there we had plenty of oil. And they are in Mahon. That's the place that mayonnaise seems was really created. And I will go all the way in that mayonnaise is a Spanish invention. I am Jose Andres and I endorse this message. Even it was done like this story by French in the island of Mahon. If it happened in Spain, it is a Spanish period. Nobody can refute this very simple truth. You're a definitive guy. You know, one thing I've always wondered about, you know, I've talked about the garlic bread soup that you'd have towards the end of the month. When recipes are designed based upon what's really available, you're not doing it just because you like it. It's it comes out of the ground. It comes out of the need. How do those recipes migrate into the 21st century and still retain their meaning? If the people making them, you know, have other options, they have more money, they travel the world. Does that stale bread soup with garlic and water you made for me years ago, does that still live in the 21st century in some way? I think it lives everywhere. Maybe it's more difficult in the cities. You know, when you live in a city, you have a supermarket that has ingredients from all around the world and you don't understand really anymore the wonderful timing of the seasons. Either way, I do believe some of the best dishes really do come from the necessity of the moment. One of the recipes I have in this book, migas, migas was one of the first dishes that really made me think about how much I was going to be loving cooking and food. And this is when I visit being very young, the town of a family member of my father, he will have this big cast iron cauldron and there he had the table, wooden table that maybe was two, three generations old and you could see the marks of its life in the surface. And right there was this mountain like a volcano of breadcrumbs and that bread that was few days old was not going to go to garbage or to waste. So when it went into the pot with the fat of the pork melting, that dish of simple bread toasted on its own fat with a garlic clove as the only thing to give it a little kiss of some other flavor. And then fry egg after fry egg on the same coals, the bread, the migas, the fry egg, making the egg yolk with the help of the fork, the bread kissing each other with the egg yolk and just putting the egg and the bread in the mouth. That's the moment that I have a feeling I fall in love with tradition, I fall in love with cooking. Sometimes the least amount of ingredients if they are treated with respect can be the most sublime of the dishes. So explain to me how you ended up at El Bully. Fran just walked into a restaurant you were working at and thought you had promise? Yeah. In the summer I would be in this restaurant, a seafood restaurant called Antuy and was the best seafood restaurant in that town. And Fran who was working in El Bully, young, 24 probably, me I was much younger. And I remember that that was the first time I cook for him and that was the first time I say hi. Brief conversation but powerful enough. I already knew of him but I kind of find that that was kind of a calling that he will be coming there and when I already was thinking I should work in El Bully next season I was there and obviously my life in many ways changed forever. Did you describe what that kitchen was like at the beginning? I mean it was obviously very different than almost any other type of restaurant so how was it different? Well I was at the very early, early moment of the big bang. One of the dishes I was doing was these amazing chips of vegetables. I had there my pot of foil and I was frying the chips little by little. And also part of another one of the dishes in my station was kind of a gelatin of almond milk, a dish that we call ajo blanco. So I had this gelatin and I was getting my mizzen plaz ready and the gelatin I will cut these kind of cubes. And then I could see the theorem when he was checking the cubes. But all of a sudden I began seeing his eyes and he was looking at the hot oil and he was looking at the gelatin between his two fingers. He passed it from his right hand to the left hand and he kept looking at the oil. And we were all looking at each other in the kitchen thinking is he going to put the almond milk in the oil? Yes. Faran threw the gelatin of almond milk into the hot pot of oil where I was frying the vegetables. And as we know, oil don't like liquids. A big explosion happens as every time you put the liquid in hot oil. So when he throws the gelatin into the hot oil, were you thinking he's just crazy? Or you're thinking? But then it's like okay, but we've never done it. Somebody had to be the first person. Ten years later, Ferran Andrea created what we call the liquid croqueta of jamón, a very iconic Spanish dish that you find in many tapas bars. That croqueta became one of the legendary dishes of Ferran. That liquid croqueta ten years later happened in that moment. It was described a few minutes ago. Ferran showed us the way. You write, I love this. If you're in a Spanish restaurant that has churros on the dessert menu, walk out. And if the confused server asks you why, you can tell them that Jose told you to. So why should I walk out in Spain in a restaurant that has churros on the dessert menu? Well it can be the one that has amazing churros. And then that's the one that you shouldn't walk out. But usually churros, they are not for dessert. Right. Therefore, late, late, late, late nights before you go to bed is the last thing you eat or for early morning breakfast and is the first thing you eat. So churros in a restaurant is not something traditionally you will see. That's done in another moment in another part of the sequence of life. Late night or early breakfast, but never at the end of dessert of a meal in a sit-down restaurant. There's also a tradition of merienda, which is bread with wine and sugar the kids eat. So what, I'm going to try this with my kids. So I don't even know if that's happening anymore, but I remember being in this little town in Santa Coloma de Cerbello outside Barcelona. And that's where I grew up. And there is where I remember that toast of bread with a sprinkle of red wine on top to let the bread absorb the wine and use the sugar and sprinkle. And that was so, so delicious. Obviously, it was a great way for my brothers and I and the other children to fall asleep the one hour or two hours that our parents will have to have a break from the intensity for young boys. I don't know if today this will be allowed or even if my family will be persecuted with alcohol loss of the land. But I can tell you that to this day is one of the most delicious things I remember having as a child. You have three girls. How old are they now, your kids? Carlota 27 in S 23 and Lucia 21. And the great news is that they keep showing up at home in this house, in this kitchen, they know when certain things arrive and they know that in the right season, I'm going to have these amazing Clementines and nectarines from Ohio Valley in California. And there is the season of asparagus over there is the season of morels. I know that my daughters sooner or later are going to be showing up and when they want something they know they can text and we're ready for croquettes and the croquettes will be waiting for them in the fridge. So I want to believe that my daughters in a way they keep coming back obviously to see their mother, my wife, Patricia and myself. But I have a feeling that those foods of their childhood who were the foods of my childhood is one of the reasons they keep coming back home. Jose, it's always a pleasure to talk to you. I always keep you in my heart and let's cook together soon. I'd love to. Jose, thank you for your time. Thank you, Chris. That was Jose Andres. His new book is Spain, my way. You can find an extended cut of our interview on Tuesday, May 19th at MilkStreetRadio.com or wherever you find your podcasts. You know, I work hard, but nobody outworks Jose with the World Central Kitchen and 40 restaurants. He's fascinated with everything culinary from molecular gastronomy at El Bule in his early days to cooking breadcrumbs in a cast iron pot with pork fat and serving them with a fried egg. Jose is in fact a modern day Renaissance man, a little bit like maybe Leonardo da Vinci. These philosophers really show us how to live large. Be wise and witty, subtle and deep, moral and grave and never ever abandon a child's fascination with the mysteries of the world. You're listening to MilkStreet Radio. Coming up, we dissect internet memes. I'm Christopher Kimball and you're listening to MilkStreet Radio. Next up, my co-host Sarah Moulton and I will answer a few more of your cooking questions. Welcome to MilkStreet. Who's calling? Hi, it's Leanne in Canada. Hi Leanne, how can we help you today? Well, I'm hoping you can help me with an ongoing problem. I have a mother-in-law who her diet has been changed to no solids. So I've been trying to help by making her custard and pudding for the last few years and I found that when I try to fool around with the recipes by adding another egg or increase the protein, a pudding that would be setting up will then just go thin again. And I'm wondering why that is or is there something I could be doing otherwise that's wrong. Is there a thickener in the custard you're making? You've got eggs, sugar, milk, right? Yeah, and usually I've almost gone completely to flour because cornstarch was making me crazy. So you said you've tried upping the eggs in a custard? Yes. Okay. You can cook eggs all by themselves, right? You know, scrambling them, whatever. They will form into curds at a much lower temperature than if you add some liquid to them and sugar. You can take them to a higher temperature and you need to until they thicken properly. But if you up the amount of eggs, you've now distorted the ratio of liquid and sugar to eggs. So now they're going to curdle at a lower temperature. So that is not ideal. I hear you about cornstarch. It's very tricky. If you beat it too much, it breaks down. If you beat it too little. But also when you add starch to eggs, unless you cook it to a much higher temperature, almost to 212, the eggs have something in them that eats the starch and will make the whole thing thin out again. I had no idea. Yeah. If the eggs are all by themselves, cook them lower. If the eggs are with starch, you need to cook them much higher. That's the basic recipe. How many eggs? It would be two. So I have an assortment of recipes that I've been making. But if I can go to two eggs, if I go to three eggs, it won't. So you're mixing the eggs with sugar and then adding some of the hot milk to it or something and then putting it back in. Yes, I am. Yeah. Now you're using three eggs. You're stirring, gently stirring the mixture. You're heating it. You have a thermometer there. I do. Yeah. I get it to 180 or 11. Right, 180. When it gets to 180, it's starting to thicken. It has thickened by then. Yeah. And then what's happening is as it cools and sets, it starts to unthicken. That's right. There's no difference between doing that and doing the recipe with two eggs, right? Everything else is the same. Everything is the same. Yep. Is it a little bit curdled as well as watery? No, it doesn't curdle. It's just watery. Yep. It just stands right out into, oh gosh, I don't, I have your. I don't want to put it in the oven cream, but you have to eat it like a soup. Somehow those bonds are breaking down as it's cooling. Yeah. They're not setting properly. So now you're adding flour. Cornstarch is tricky. Cornstarch not only is a problem in terms of how much you heat it, but also if you stir too vigorously. It'll break down. Cornstarch does not take to agitation very well. So you can't whisk it. Oh, bad I didn't know. Yeah. If you use a wooden spoon and are very gentle in the stirring, cornstarch works great. Cause it's all starch. Flour has proteins and starch, so it's a less effective thickener. If you take it easy, keep it over medium heat and use a wooden spoon and don't stir it too much. You probably will have success with a cornstarch. I've got another idea, which is instant tapioca. A lot of bakers love to use it. I think it's more stable. It also is good with acid. You're talking about the powdered form, not the granulated form. I still don't get the extra egg. I think that's really interesting. We're going to have to try that. Yeah, no, that is so strange. But you didn't change the recipe. All you did was add an extra egg. Everything else was the same. This is, we might have to call Harold McGee. This is kitchen mystery theater right here. Fascinating call. Yeah, well, we'll have to get back to you, Leanne, with the answer. All right. Yeah. I appreciate your time and I will try tapioca. Okay. Thanks. Bye. Bye now. This is Milk Street Radio. If you have a kitchen disaster that's really bugging you, we want to help give us a ring 855-426-9843. One more time, 855-426-9843, or just email us at questions at Milk Street Radio dot com. Welcome to Milk Street. Who's calling? Hi, this is Melanne from Chicago, Illinois. How can we help you? I've been baking for many years and over time, I've grown to love trying new breads from around the world. For example, I found out about the Japanese Tang Zong method. I believe it's used in milk bread. Milk bread, yep. And I really like the moisture bread that resulted. So my question has two parts. How do I modify a recipe to use Tang Zong? And secondly, what are some other unusual bread methods and techniques that you could recommend for me to try at home? Wow. Man, I'm going to have to work on this one. I've made milk bread and the secret to it, as you know, is you cook the flour with some of the water or milk and that gelatinizes the starch and the flour, which means you trap a bunch of moisture in that gelatin mixture slurry and it's trapped. So you end up in the entire recipe with a much higher hydration. As you know, hydration is the weight of the water divided by the weight of the flour. Milk breads are 65 to 75%, but you can get a much higher hydration by trapping that water there, which gives you the benefit of being able to work the dough, right? Because a highly hydrated dough is very hard to work with, like a very wet pizza dough, for example. So it allows you to do it. And then also more water in the bread, the higher the hydration, you get a softer, more interesting crumb. It also lasts longer. Milk bread will last quite a long time. So you get that wonderful texture. Another question is, what else can you do it with? Well, you could probably try it with any bread, like a white sandwich bread and just cook a little bit of the flour and the water to start and then mix that slurry in with the dough later. And I would look at the milk bread recipe to figure out proportions, but I would just follow the same proportions in that recipe and you could apply it to almost any bread. But wouldn't you want it to be a softer bread? Isn't that the point of it? I don't know. I think I... I mean, like for French bread? But I don't know. I think it would be interesting to try any bread. Other methods you could try are, you know, sort of no-knead bread, which came along 20 years ago, or at least was popular, is 20 years ago in the Arab times by Mark Bipman. And that's a very, very hydrated bread, which is cooked inside of a Dutch oven with a top on. The moisture from the bread helps steam it as it cooks. That's one you can certainly do. Another one I like to do is you start, you know, overnight with a poolish with usually one cup of flour, one cup of water, I think, half a teaspoon of yeast. Mix that together, put it on the counter, cover with wrap, and let it sit overnight. And it develops that poolish, that starter, and you mix that in with the rest of the recipe the next day. Anything else? I was going to say, you know, it sounds like you're pretty experienced, so I'm sure you've already done sourdough. But how about flatbreads? You know, pita dough is fun to do. Flatbreads, you can do them without any lovin'ing at all. You can do them with baking, you know, chemical lovin'ing, baking powder, or you can do them with yeast. And there's a million of them, and they're all pretty quick and they're really delicious, yeah. That's really helpful. For the flour and water paste, when I'm trying to convert another recipe to just use this, do I add extra water or do I just take some of the water that's already in the recipe and some of the flour that's already in the recipe? No, the water that you mix with the flour and cook initially is extra, and it's not going to change the recipe. I mean, you just don't count it. So I think what you would do is add extra water above what's in the recipe to some flour to start. The gelatin will hold onto it, so it's essentially not counted, but you end up with more water overall when it's baked, which gives you a better texture. So the answer is don't change the liquid amount of the recipe, but add extra water to cook with that flour at the beginning. And I would look at the milk bread recipe just to get a rough idea. You did one in the magazine, right? Yeah, I made milk bread a year or two ago with Senoko Sakai. She wrote Japanese home cooking, which is a fabulous book, by the way. Actually, I actually used the Tags On Method to make a pie pastry once, which did not shrink much. Interesting. Yeah, it was... So it works. It's not like you're going to be able to make it with almost any bread. It's a very smart idea. Good for you. I would try with different bread recipes. Okay. Thank you so much. Thank you. Pleasure. Thanks for calling. Yes. Bye. Bye-bye. This is Most Street Radio. Time to check in with our friends Grant Barrett and Martha Burnett of Away With Words. Grant, Martha, how are you guys doing? Fantastic. You're doing great. So this week, you've told me we're doing something a bit different, which gives me enormous pause because I never know what that means. So maybe you could fill in the blank here. Enormous pause. It's like a bear. I'm envisioning Chris with bear paws. Oh, boy. Well, Chris, we sent you a list of some languagey food memes that have been making the rounds of the internet. And we thought, why not over-explain these until there's no humor left? So we've got this list. Let's find out what these meme-y one-liners are really all about. Did Martha egg you on to the point of absurdity now? Is that what's going on? My brain's a little scraveled. It's true. Yeah. Okay. So the first on my list is charcuterie. Yeah. And the meme is charcuterie is a French phrase meaning, I bought too much at the deli. It sounds so fancy, but there's some languagey stuff there. The first one is anytime you say something in French, it just sounds better than in English. It sounds fancier. It tastes better too. But there's another angle to go with this, Martha. And that's the deli part of this. When we're talking about cold cuts that you get the deli or deli meats, I had a strange experience the other day, you guys. And Chris, I don't know if you've run into this, where I was talking to some people online who didn't know that deli was short for delicatessen. What? Yeah, it was a thing. But there's etymology there too, which I think is really fascinating that we use delicatessen in English to refer to the place where we buy cold cuts. But in German and Dutch, the word once referred to any kind of fine food. The same way that we might call fine food delicacies in English. Oh, that's actually, that's really interesting, delicatessen. All right. He says it was a surprise. So the next on my list is latte. Latte, they say on the internet, is French for you pay too much for that coffee. Very true. But you know, Martha, everyone really should run their food and language memes by us first. That's true. Because latte isn't French. It's actually Italian. It's the Italian word for milk. And I know you know this, Chris. Well, I was in Milan changing planes, I don't know, 20 years ago. So they had a little cafe in the airport. And I went up and I ordered a latte. And of course, you know what I got. Just a cup of warm milk. Yeah, exactly. A cup of warm milk. And it looks like a baby. So, but then the question is, should I pretend that's what I wanted to drink? Of course. Or should I put it on a table and walk back to the end of the line, which is what I did because I needed some coffee. But I felt like such a complete idiot. Oh, my gosh. Can I have a latte, please? I'm not in Starbucks. I'm in Milan. OK, how about eggnog? Oh, yeah. So the meme is eggnog implies the existence of other more secret types of Nog. Oh, that's the setup. What Nogs could there be? Well, it's kind of true, isn't it? Martha Nog was originally a type of strong alcohol with an egg mixed in. Right, right. So if you were making an alcoholic drink made out of eggs, you would indeed want to tell people what to expect right there in the name. But we don't know where Nog comes from, the word anyway. But you know, eggs and alcohol have a long tradition. So, you know, maybe there are secret Nogs that are so secret they don't even have a Nog in their names. What about the term Noggin? Where does that come from? It's possible it is related to a drinking vessel the size of the head, but it's unsure because it's one of those very old words. Sort of like mug. So OK, so how about buffet? I mean, what's the meme there? All right, so the meme is, and I've seen this a bunch of times, but it's another one of the where people just pretend not to understand French. Buffet is a French word that means get up and get it yourself. But but Martha, I think what we should say is buffet is a word that means don't lick the serving spoon or I hope there's a sneeze guard. I think you shouldn't go to a restaurant that has sneeze guards on the buffet. I mean, it's a good idea. Pretty much every single European language has some form of the word buffet because this concept, as you know, there's this period where, hey, let's just line all of our food across the top of a piece of furniture and everyone can serve themselves. It kind of was it was trendy. And so it comes from the name of the piece of furniture. So buffet, the meal or the type of eating comes from the furniture. And it might be related to this idea of being open to the air because the buffet may come from the automatic peeing sound of breath like puff. Well, puff makes me think of Buffett to Nikas, which is. Now, that's the sense that will live in infamy. I just want to say it makes you think of what Buffett to Nikas. And what in God's name does that mean? Buffett to Nikas is a Lithuanian word that comes from French buffet. And it now means bartender. But Buffett to Nikas. That's my favorite word ever. Only interested in what sounds cool. Yeah, just belly up to the bar. Yeah, to Nikas. All right. One more mean before we go, Chris, which cheese festival is the shortest? Cheese. You're going to be sorry. You're going to be sorry. I'm already sorry. Marlowe, give him the answer there. Come on. Well, the cheese festival that's the shortest is the Brie Fest. Lord, is that no good, Chris? We go. You're feeling blue about it. You guys you guys crash and burn on the last one. I kill the Keldommage, Kelfermage. Great, Martha, thank you so much. It's amazing what comes out of your noggin's. It's always a surprise. Till next time. Thank you, guys. Our pleasure, Chris. Thanks, Chris. That was Grant Barrett and Martha Barnett, host of Away with Words. Martha recently published a new book called Friends with Words, Adventures in Language Land. That's it for today. To hear all of our episodes, please go to MilkStreetRadio.com or wherever you get your podcast. To explore everything Milk Street, visit us at 1-77-MilkStreet.com. There you can become a member, get full access to all of our recipes and free standard shipping from the Milk Street store and much more. You can also find us at Facebook at Christopher Kimball's Milk Street on Instagram at 1-77-MilkStreet. We'll be back next week and thanks as always for listening. Christopher Kimball's Milk Street radio is produced by Milk Street in association with GBH. Co-founder Melissa Baldino, executive producer Annie Sinsabaugh. Senior editor Melissa Allison. Senior producer Sarah Clap. Producer Caroline Davis. Assistant producer Mari Arosco. Additional editing by Sydney Lewis. Audio mixing by Jay Allison at Atlantic Public Media in Woods Hole, Massachusetts. Theme music by Tubebub Crew. Additional music by George Brendel Eggloff. Christopher Kimball's Milk Street radio is distributed by PRX.哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎