This is an I Heart Podcast. Guaranteed Human. Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on I Heart Radio. And welcome back to Coast to Coast, George Nori with you, Dr. Paul Kudin. I respect with us as a PhD from UCLA and as two main fields of interest and focus being histories of death and animals. He has written at least three books on the former and has traveled to more than 70 countries to visit prominent death-related sacred sites while studying the culture traditions that have evolved around them. Paul, welcome back. How have you been? I'm well, George, and you are an American treasure, so it is always my pleasure to be here talking to you. Looking forward to this, too. How did you get interested in animals and death? You know, Coast back to when I was a kid. I mean, I guess I was kind of obsessed with both. I was one of those weird kids who spent his time, you know, not worrying about the baseball team, but worrying about what they were going to write on my tombstone. And I just always had this love, especially for cats. I always had a love for animals. And so when I wound up doing my PhD, I really got into the death study stuff. And the animal studies was always there in the background. And eventually I kind of put them both together and started working on the history of pet symmetaries and animal ghosts, things like that. And what is an animal ghost? What is a pet ghost? Well, you know, people don't really think in terms of animal ghosts, but I'll tell you something, George. If you were to put together all the different categories of animal hauntings, animal ghosts, animal apparitions, and animal visitations, they're actually the most common type of ghost story or haunting. Way more common than hauntings involving people. It's just that we don't really think in those terms because historically in Western culture, Western spirituality has kind of created this bifurcation that humans are supposed to get an afterlife and animals don't. And so we never really thought in terms of animals in the afterlife. And so, you know, hundreds of years of stories that we would call them ghost stories got attributed to witches, familiars, or demons, as if, or, you know, the devil, as if the devil has nothing better to do than turn himself into a cat or dog and walk through someone's wall and stare at some cobbler and strasbourg. But we would call all these old stories involving, you know, these apparitions of animals. We would call them ghost stories. There's a whole history of them. Has predominant as these issues are, why has it seemed that we don't talk that much about it? You know, as I said, it's really a matter of Western spirituality creating this bifurcation that humans were somehow number one and they were granted an afterlife and really bad theology. This idea that animals don't have a soul and I know your listeners are probably a little bit more enlightened and open-minded about this stuff. There's no reason to think if we have a soul that an animal shouldn't. In fact, if you go back to early Christian times, there was no one saying that animals didn't have a soul. They were just questioning whether they were of the same nature as a human being. And so, you know, if we grant, if we grant humans a soul, there's no reason to not grant one to an animal. And there's no reason to think that an animal shouldn't have an afterlife, the same as a human being does. Are you convinced that it's real? Oh, absolutely. You know, there are a lot of stories which we can talk about. And you can give you a lot of examples that have been verified. And I'll tell you, I had a couple experiences myself and I wouldn't be surprised if many of your listeners have also just the other day I was telling a friend of mine, you know, I'm going to go on coast to coast and we were talking about animals. She said, yeah, I got to tell you this story. This crazy thing happened. My cat died. And exactly one year to the day after her cat died, you know, she had taken all of her cat stuff. She hadn't thrown it away because she loved her cat too much to get rid of anything. And so she had taken all her cat's toys and put them away one year to the day. When her cat died, she found the ball that her cat used to chase around the house. She found it in her shoe. And how could that happen, right? Well, these type, but these types of stories with pets. That's why I say they're not like traditional ghost stories. Really, they take the form more of visitations. And these are the most common kinds of hauntings you get with animals. This feeling that, you know, the animal is somehow checking in on you or giving you some kind of sign. I had a cat that I lost almost a year ago. And I'll tell you two real weird things happen. So the first night after she died, I built a little altar tour. And I lit a candle for her. And as I was going to bed, that candle just started to spark like a sparkler, like a firewood. It just started to spark. And I was just like, yeah, it kind of feels like she's checking in on me. Anyway, and so a year passes, it was just last week, a year had passed and she died. And I went to light that candle again. That was on this little altar that I made for at exactly midnight. That candle just stuffed itself out exactly one year to the day. What's amazing now, what animal is more apt to come back as a ghost? A cat, a dog, a frog? I don't know too many stories about frog ghosts, but there might be some. I actually can give you a story about a trout ghost, but I'll tell you it's dogs for sure. And I don't know that that means that dogs are more spiritually capable of manifesting themselves or visiting. I think it's more a question to just a dog's personality. A dog is the kind of animal that is more likely to check in on you while it's alive, whereas the cat's more independent. And I think that probably carries over into the afterlife as well. But for sure, there are a lot more stories about dog ghosts, but there are stories really about all these animals. I mentioned the trout ghost and it's true. I know a story about a trout ghost. There was a guy when I was working on my book about pet symmetries. I visited this old estate in England where a guy had a trout that he had tammed in the 1850s as his pet. And this trout would come to the top of the stream and eat out of his hand. And after the trout died, he made a little grave for it right next to the stream. And then the guy eventually died. And the next resident of the house was writing that he would see this ghostly shape of a fish swimming around right next to the tree. Now some people have had animals that have passed on and they never hear from them again. Why is that? Well, you know, keep in mind that when it comes to things like apparitions and hauntings, a lot of times it's like a television set. You've got to be tuned into the right channel. So, you know, it very well might be that the animals trying to contact you. It very well might be that the animal is not, but you know, if the animal is trying to contact you, you've got to be receptive to it. And a lot of times as human beings, I think part of the problem is we kind of block out with our, with our supposed rationality. We kind of block out messages that don't make sense. So, I think a lot of people may, me and maybe they just block out that kind of communication from the other world. Do the animals re and carnage, Paul? Well, that's a spiritual question that is a little bit beyond my pay grade. But certainly there are a lot of, there are a lot of belief systems in which they do. And I'll say this about the belief in reincarnation. You know, I mentioned that part of the reason that traditionally we didn't talk about animal ghosts in Western cultures. We had this bifurcation that animals were the lesser. And so they didn't really deserve an afterlife in human beings were the ones that had actual souls that could pass on. But when you get into cultures that believe in reincarnation, you kind of get a different system. Because if a soul can pass between different beings, you know, if my soul had been a cat or a fish or a fly or something else, then you know, became a human being. It's a lot easier for me to believe that they have a soul and that soul can carry on. Then if I live in a system like I say, Western spirituality that has this kind of hard and dry bifurcation that we get the souls and they just get something secondary. But I know you're going to want some after here and this. This is an amazing story. We've got Stephen and Malachi Gregory in Nelson, New Zealand. We understand that Malachi, who is eight almost nine years old now, was suffering with not just one or two warts, but I mean a significant outbreak of warts all over his body. So significant it impacted his ability to really function. Yeah, he was having trouble even holding a pencil to write. I was talking to his book actually that got me thinking about it. I'm not surprised. It is an amazing immunomodulator. And so I can see that it would work. And so at what point did you see that there was actually improvement? It's really going to work. Well, we really started to notice it around 12 weeks. You can see these things actually getting smaller and smaller and then going down to the weather just a little red marks. The whole things are gone and we're talking about once, you know, one the size of the water. I thought no way that's going to wow. It's just been miraculous to see him get into a pure of shoes. Yes. How wonderful. It's great to see him so happy and confident. Absolutely wonderful. Every incident seen it. That is blown away. Hi, this is awesome. Yeah, this is awesome. Another amazing story. Why? We're talking about carnivora. Call them to awaken your immune system and protect yourself now. Call 1866-836-8735. That's 1866-836-8735 or visit carnivora.com. C-A-R-N-I-V-O-R-A carnivora.com. If you were very close to your pet, is it highly probable that it would come back in its afterlife? Well, again, that depends on how receptive you are. I know people who were incredibly close to their pets that never felt they had a sign or a visitation. But I'm telling you that, and I'm sure we'll get some calls on this with people telling us that they believe they had some kind of visitation. It's very, very common. And by the visit, by visitation, I don't mean you wake up in the middle of the night. There's a ghostly shape of a dog standing over you. What I mean is you're in bed and you feel some strange sensation that feels like your dog's paws on the bed. But you don't see anything or that hole that you put away has suddenly been pushed out to the center of the room. Really, really common. And people can see it in all kinds of places. I have a friend who is a complete skeptic. And she told me that her dog had died and she called me on the phone in a pan. She's like, I looked up at a cloud and this cloud has taken the shape of my dog's face. So, you know, and she, you know, that might be a little bit of wistful thinking there with the cloud. But it just depends on how receptive you are. Are there many animal symmetaries around the country? In the United States, George, there's at least 600 of them. Wow. And really a lot. The United States has more pet symmetaries. Animal symmetaries on the rest of the world combined. It's kind of an American specialty. We have because in the United States, there's a great diversity of ways we treat an animal after it dies. There are regional variants. People think of, when people think of pet symmetaries, they think of Stephen King or they think of, you know, a cemetery that looks kind of exactly like a replica of a human cemetery. In fact, there are a whole lot of different types in the United States, you know, where I live out in the Mojave Desert. There are kind of, you know, unspoken like locals only secrets, but vast pet symmetaries out here. There's one in Boulder, Sydney, Nevada, one out by Bishop California, Winter Haven, California. These are how Arizona, these vast pet symmetaries on public land that are free burial sites where everything is homemade. It's a very different type. So we've really got a lot of different types. And we've got pet symmetaries for special, you know, specialized pet symmetaries for different types of animals. There's a wonderful pet symmetry in Alabama solely for, solely for coondogs, you know, it's got to be a raccoon hunting hound or it is not allowed to be buried in that cemetery. So we've really got a vast panoply of ways to bury your animals in the United States. Partly said, you mean to put your animal down if it's ill or sick? Well, I think so, George. And I think that most animal lovers believe that I remember some years ago, I had a cat who was a very strong animal. And I had no idea she was sick until the very end. She suddenly took ill one day and I took her into a vet and they did a bunch of tests. And they came back and they told me, you know, we can't believe she's even still alive. Her blood is poison and they told me it's like, you know, she's probably got a weak left. If you need more time with her, but the question for me wasn't if I needed more time with her. It's like, does she need more time with me? And if her blood's poison and she's in pain and she's only got a week to live, I think it I absolutely thought at the time it was the human thing to do to let her go. And I think many people would agree. Sounds like Dr. Kavorkian, right? The Dr. Kavorkian of animals, that's me. Now you've been to many countries, 70 plus countries. What gets you to those countries? Well, a love of research. I mean, just even on this pet cemetery research alone, I mean, I went all the way to Egypt just to photograph one pet cemetery. You know, when I worked on a book about the history of domestic cats and I went down to New Zealand solely to photograph one cat statue. I really believe that you've got to go out there in the field and you've got to experience these things and these places first hand to understand them. Tell me the difference between a cat and a dog in terms of as a pet. So George, I've never had a dog as a pet. Really? No, no, I'm a dedicated cat guy. But I think I will go with kind of the standard. I think I'll go with a standard line that cats are more independent and that's why I've always had cats. You know, I'm always kind of on the go. It would just, you know, it's like a dog takes a little bit more upkeep. I love dogs, by the way, George. Me not having one is not because of any animosity between myself and the canine species. They just don't fit my lifestyle. I used to have a lot of huskies in labs. Both good, great breeds. Yeah, those are beautiful ones. And one cat need patches that they got from my kids when I was smaller. I was working with Ralston, Purina in a public relations campaign and they had a cat as a prop. And they didn't know what to do with the little thing afterwards. So I said, I'll take it home. So I took it home for the kids and they loved them for a while. They lived, they lived, they had a cat. Life span of a cat is longer than a dog, isn't it? Generally speaking, it is. Of course, I always say about cats and dogs and here is a big difference. To most cat owners, a cat's just a cat. To most dog owners, a dog is a specific breed. You know, the breed is much more important when it comes to dogs. If you ask a cat owner, you know, what kind of pet do you have? They'll just tell you I have a cat. If you ask a dog owner, they're going to tell you I have a huskies. Or I have a spaniel or I have something else. And so, you know, some of those smaller dogs in the Chihuahua and so forth, they can live a real long time, but those big dogs, you know, eight or nine years, is usually all they've got. Where the Paul Kudianaris were talking about animals and ghosts. His book is called Faithful Onto Death. What are the other ones that you got Paul? Well, I have a book about the history of domestic cats called a Cats Tale. And I've got three books about death, Empire of Death, Heavenly Bodies, about Jeweled Skeletons. I don't know if you remember this. I came out to Colorado and we did an episode on Beyond Belief. I'm a Gleeve, yeah. Yeah. And one called Memento Mori. Fantastic. Give us a quick story of a ghost tale. One of my favorites. So, some of your listeners may be familiar with a term called Christmast. It's a term called Crisis Apparition. And the Crisis Apparition, it's a kind of haunting, but it's not a typical ghost story. It only occurs once and it occurs at a time of great stress. You know, if something bad is happening on the other end, we might get an apparition of a person or a thing. In 1931, there was a woman named Marie Demler in Savannah, Georgia. She was in, she had gone into the hospital to give birth. And she had left her dog, Mack, at home with her sister. And so she's in the hospital. She's just given birth. She's still sitting there in the ward. Her dog comes walking through the ward up to her bed. And not only does her dog come walking into the hospital, her dog was dripping with water. Her dog was wet. And her dog pressed its hand, pressed its nose into Marie's hand. And pressed its cold nose into Marie's hand. And its nose was wet too. Which is like, what the hell is my dog doing next time my hospital bed here? And the dog turned around and walked away and left these little wet paw prints. And started screaming for the nurse, you know, my dog. My dog just appeared in the hospital. Why is my dog here in the hospital? And they're like, there's no dog here. And then I look, look at the little wet paw prints, little wet paw prints leading away from my room. There were wet paw prints. Everybody saw them, but then they looked out of the hall. There's no dog. It's wondering what the hell our dog is doing in the hospital. Calls her sister and finds out her dog has just died. And her dog had died because it had drowned in a river. So her dog appeared to her at the very end of its life. This, as it's called, a crisis apparition, this haunting, this, this visitation to press its nose into her hand one last time. And just kind of let her know, hey, you know, I love you. I'm here for you. I'm always looking out for you. What do you think is on the other side for an animal? Is it the same as a human? Well, I would, I really believe that whatever life force animates us, animates it down. I'm very democratic about it. So I would, I would assume so. You know, one of the popular theories, I'm sure you've heard of the rainbow bridge, and sure a lot of your listeners are familiar with it. And I'll let, I'll have you know, by the way, I was the first person when I worked on that book, Faith Walnut to death, I was the first person to ever track down the actual author of it, the rainbow bridge and get an interview with her. And it's a very interesting story behind the rainbow bridge. But, you know, a lot of people gravitate towards the rainbow bridge and this idea that there's a kind of waiting space where animals will wait for us and meet up with us. And in the sense, it's kind of like purgatory for animals. I mean, they're not working off their sins, but they're not moving on to paradise immediately either. They're kind of waiting for us in this edil and then we cross over with them together. So that has become one of the kind of pop culture visions of what happens to animals. They kind of wait for us in an edil until we're ready to meet up with them again. Listen to more Coast to Coast AM every weeknight at 1 a.m. Eastern and go to coast to coastam.com for more. This is an I Heart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.
