Even going back to Renee Good, the idea that there was an ICE agent that was filming well involved in this life or death, you know, supposedly for him situation, right? You're claiming that but at the same time you're using your phone to document this. I've never had a law enforcement agent pull up their personal, like, assumedly personal smartphone and film me. Like, I've never seen that. To have them just like have a gun in one hand and a phone in the other blew my mind. I just have to wonder like where, where is that content going? Like, where are those photos and videos going? I'm Charlie Worsell. Welcome to Galaxy Brain. Around 2015, I started to do a lot of reporting on the ways of the internet was causing a societal rupture, right? It's possible, I think, that for Americans and maybe for everybody, that there's never been a true shared reality, that we have always been living in some respect in filter bubbles of our own making, even before the internet. But as the world really came online and as our politics and our culture were uploaded to these social networks that are essentially built for viral advertising, that the shreds of our monoculture were consumed by a constellation of content, right? Much of it algorithmically fed to us. And it's something changed in that moment. I wrote back in 2017 that it felt like that was the first year in the first year of the Trump presidency, where it just became obvious that Americans were effectively living in two universes, and each one was propped up by their own information ecosystems. Around that time too, I was also writing a lot about the ways the technology would continue to blur and make it harder to understand what was real and what wasn't real. In 2018, I wrote this piece where I spoke to a number of researchers, including a man named Aviv Ovadia, and he specifically warned of this infocalipse, is what he called it, an information apocalypse. Basically, a future where AI tools and Craven, hyperpartisan actors on this algorithmic internet that's completely fragmented and fractured and tech-powered would allow anyone to cast aspersions on any event or anything or any fact. People could just fake anything, and they argued that would eventually create this realm where Tabaro had phrased from the researcher Peter Pramorantsev, nothing is true and everything is possible. People, they said, would be radicalized, they'd be overwhelmed, they'd be hopelessly divided, and they'd be sad, but mostly it would get to this state where when you can't figure out what's true, when everything is just this information war, that eventually you just start to tune out, right? And this was all pre-pandemic. It felt very plausible, but the generative AI tools weren't out yet, they were pretty crude, they're pretty bad. So there was this feeling that it was plausible, but it still felt so futuristic. But today, it kind of feels like we're living in that future. Just in January, just this month, it feels to me, someone who's covered this for a long time, that we are living in a pretty straightforward depiction of what the worst case post-truth information apocalypse scenario was of the people who were warning about it in the late 2010s. I mean, if you just think about this month, you have X and Groc, and this major platform generating and distributing this AI non-concentral sexual abuse material and having it viralized and weaponized to intimidate and harass minors and women. You have a terminally online government and you have the officials marshalling the resources of the military in service of propaganda to perform for this imagined audience online. And that's all happened with the US's military invasion and capture of Maduro and all the content that has been posted alongside it. You have a YouTuber named Nick Shirley, who at the end of last year posted this video online alleging daycare fraud in Minnesota involving the state's Somali population. That video exploded online and eventually led to a chain of events that led to the Trump administration deploying a higher level of enforcement of ice on moss to the Twin Cities. This of course culminated an increased amount of raids and ice agents in the street in Minneapolis and ultimately in the tragic confrontation where an ice agent shot and killed Renee Good in her car. This of course was captured on video and that video quickly spread online with people analyzing it from multiple angles. There have been tons of protests in the ensuing weeks. So much of that has been captured online, protesters, filming ice, ice agents, filming protesters. Incredible amounts of content on social networks of people being abducted or arrested or having tear gas deployed on them. It is this situation where it feels like there is this battle being fought through everyone's phone. It feels a bit like a hinge point and it feels like there is a, despite all of the political issues happening here, that there is a technological issue, that there is a, that this is all a bit of a culmination of things that I've been following for a really long time. Somebody else who's been following that in some cases alongside me is Ryan Broderick. Ryan Broderick writes the garbage day newsletter and is the host of the Panic World podcast. Ryan and I worked together at BuzzFeed during the 2010s for quite a while, covering the ways that the internet changes how we behave politically and the way that it can impact some of these political movements. Ryan was someone who BuzzFeed sent to cover all kinds of online and offline protests around the world. He's been to 22 countries reported from six continents and he's been on the ground for close to a dozen referendums and elections. Ryan recently came back from observing all the protesting in Minneapolis and he joins me today to talk about what happened in Minnesota, what is happening and the ways in which all of this can be linked and not linked to an extremely online society. He joins me in. But first, quick break. Right, Ryan Broderick, welcome to Galaxy Brain. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited. Congrats on becoming a podcaster. I'm really sorry that happened to you. I know. It's everything I ever wanted to just be mocked on YouTube and across multiple platforms. It's lovely. It's about discovering new audiences that hate you. That's what modern life is. That's what we're doing. Man, well, I appreciate it. I want to talk to you about your reporting. You went to Minneapolis just a few days after a nice agent killed Renee Good and you were there for protests around the city and around the federal building. I want to start with just tell me what it was like to be on the ground in Minneapolis for those few days. It's very surreal. I've definitely come back with a profoundly different take on the seriousness, I would say, of the term administration. I think you and I have been having essentially one conversation for a decade, which is how seriously should we be taking this stuff? Is this just like internet chatter or is this a real existential threat to America democracy? Now that I've seen the whole hyper object from internet content down to what is effectively like an occupation of an American city, I think we need to take it very seriously. I'm pretty freaked out. Yeah. Give me a sense of, because you were there in the beginning of this. Things are still going on. There's still people protesting. This is not like a finished movement in terms of the raids in the Twin Cities. But since you were there in the beginning, tell me how you saw it evolve in terms of the protesters and ISIS participation there. Yeah. So we saw the news come across social that Renee Nicole Good had been killed in Minneapolis. My producer, Grant and I, we work on our show Panic World together. We started talking to our partners on our podcast, which is career news. I was like, look, I think this is big. We should do this. We were there 24 hours after she was killed. We spent the weekend there. If we had had the money and the resources, I'd still be there. I think it is still unfolding and developing. But the point of our trip was not to, and I keep stressing this and everywhere I talk about this, our point was not to re-report what people in Minnesota are already covering. They have a great local news scene. But there are specific questions that I think people like you and I ask of events like this that local news doesn't have the bandwidth or even the interest in asking. It was really useful for me to follow the action from for four or five days and see how this community is using technology, how they're responding to technology, how the internet is shaping the events on the ground. And I think we did that. But I think this is going to become just sort of like one of those like long political quagmires that like happens during Trump administrations. Like it's just going to drag out. So give me a sense of the level of onlineness of these protests. Give me a sense of that, how the tech is shaping it. I think for the first part of the question is a lot of modern protest movements are very online organized via social networks and different apps and things like that. This one seems to be based off of reporting this a little bit. You read that a little bit differently. Yeah. I mean, so I was trying to think back of like what was the last protest that I went to. And I went to a few during 2020, but like the last sort of movement like this that I saw close was the Hong Kong democracy movement in 2019. And I was there for what would eventually be, you know, I think no one knew at the time, but it was the last time they protest before China really cracked down. And that was totally online. Like I watched a completely silent crowd moving in perfect organization using telegram, which I really like freaky. Like these Gen Z kids had figured out like how to use these messaging apps in a way that I never seen before. Minnesota is not that like it is not like there's a hashtag and we're all like spray panning around the city and we're wearing guy fox masks and shit. No, none of that. It is people who are if they're using apps that using signal, they're using a walkie talkie app. I think there's a couple that they're using to organize like ice monitoring. And they're finding out about protests and demonstrations by just going to them. Like like we interviewed countless people who were like, yeah, like I was on my way back from work and I saw this and I'm mad. So I came by. Like and we talked to people who've never been to a protest before in their lives. Like, you know, we're talking like middle age people who are like, I don't have any real political thoughts. And this is insane. And I'm going to come out and I'm going to I'm going to protest. So it was very different and to compare that to the other side, which is like extremely online was a total inversion of of everything I've seen in my career. Like it really stopped me my tracks. Let's talk a little bit about that because something striking that I saw in your reporting just like coming across on social media as you were like sharing in the moment. You didn't read the post. I always read the post. But you just like the blue sky. I see I know I get it. Yeah. I mean, you think I'm going to pay for a speaker. I wouldn't come on. Yeah. And of course. Oh, something that I saw though was you you were videoing a couple of what seemed to be like content creators like stepping out of ice vehicles or at least government or unmarked the government looking vehicles filming and then like popping back and not like not addressing themselves. What did you see in terms of creators influencers who were sort of either deployed by or administration adjacent or supported by the administration in some you know in some facet. So the specific instant you're talking about with the guy who jumps out of the ice vehicle. Basically this woman gets arrested by ice because she punches their window as they drive by like didn't damage the window or whatever if anyone cares. But like they jump out of the cars that you know pull up and they just tackle her to the ground. And then right behind them coming out of the same car was a guy in playing clothes like a like a nice suit you know like sunglasses and he's smiling and he's filming the whole thing. And I am screaming at him like who are you like why aren't you in uniform who are you with? Where's that video going? I later find out that it's a Fox News correspondent that was on a ride along with ice. But there was also just like a ton of other right wing networks that are around like the daily wire was filming people and OAN and news nation and all the baddies. There were also a group of youtubers live streamers content creators that were running around the city like harassing people. And they had a much less official connection to ice but obviously like whenever they would rile up the crowd the ice agents would come out and protect them from the crowd. And that culminated in last weekend with the leader of that group Jake Lang, a January 6th insurrectionist, he tried to burn a crown on the steps of the Minneapolis state. He tried to burn a crown on the steps of the Minneapolis City Hall and got his ass beat. And so it's that to me is like much more connected to what we've already seen in Trump administration. Like the roving gangs of content creators that are just like you know trying to antagonize leftists and make them look violent on stream. But the fact that ice was so brutal to the protesters and while also basically running defense for these content creators, they weren't trying to hide it in the way that like I think you know police forces were in the in the 2020 protests. Well let's talk a little bit about what you saw from ice agents because there is this element and I want to get into it in a second of this content creation spectacle. But in terms of you know you saying you came back from this and it's very obviously understandable why you would feel this way like I'm freaked out about this and the seriousness of what's happening there and what the administration's doing. But can you just describe for me and for people you know who may not be mainlining this stuff on their phones like what you were seeing from ice that was so disturbing or the way that they were you know treating protesters. They don't even seem to understand like why they're trying to control the crowd like they don't really there's not it's not like I've dealt with you know antagonistic police forces and protests before and there's a rhythm to it there's sort of like an assumption that like if you do this they won't really hassle you and and you know we can get into the weeds of like how that breaks down as protests become more extreme but like there's like protocols. Ice does not have that they don't really care. They will scream at you they'll yell at you they'll kind of break k-fabe they are also filming you they are like very intent on filming you with their cell phones and with telescopic lenses that they have guys like parked behind them in cars like filming through the window and that feels very different right. I'm not something I like even going back to Renee good the idea that there was an ice agent that was holding like filming well involved in this you know life or death you know supposedly for him situation right you're claiming that but at the same time you're using your phone to to to document this that feels very unique that feels like a very different form of you know enforcement tactics. Yeah I've never seen it I've I've never had a law enforcement agent pull up their person like a summa Lee personal smartphone and film me like I've never seen that and like I mean obviously like there are agencies that do surveillance on protest movements and it happens but to have them just like have a gun in one hand and a phone in the other blew my mind I um and I just have to wonder like where where is that content going like where where are those photos and videos going the fact that these guys are just taking photos of people and either uploading them to some kind of database or sharing them with each other like my you know my mind sort of goes to okay then what so right these guys let's say they have dozens of photos and videos of random people many apples on their phones like are they sending them to each other being like keep an eye out for this person and like beat their ass if you see them like like I don't know we will eventually it some kind of trial perhaps find out like what these guys are doing not like you know on back channel but it sort of adds to the idea that these guys are like I don't know like like content creators first and a Gestapo second or something it just it varies surreal very dystopian yeah and and the non professionalization of all of it right there is a piece I believe is last week kind of in the week before where a reporter applied for writing for slate applied to work for ice had a military background but certainly was like somebody who had been hyper critical of the Trump administration and immigration policy enforcement policies and ice in general and still got hired in the idea being like the threshold is so low did it add to the anxiety knowing that you're dealing with a sort of improvised force like not not only that the guys are out there filming it seems like they want to be creating some content but also just like this idea that again the standards of trading might be totally different and like did that add to the sense of unease in terms of the protesters and the people who are around yeah I mean like you can't really predict what they're going to do I remember on like the Saturday we were there there's this massive protest in Minneapolis you know thousand five thousand people many of them immigrants like many of them with immigrant rights groups and stuff and you know we're going through these little side streets in Minneapolis and I just kept thinking like what is stopping Trump from saying on true social hey like get him and Greg Bavino and everybody like coordinating off two sides of the street and just kettling everybody I got we've you know that that can happen like the the the the sort of the the general unease of the whole thing is that like you're not dealing with a accountable a rational a identifiable law enforcement group you're dealing with guys and masks that are filming you that don't really have any kind of protocol and don't really seem to care about anything other than quotas like I read that they're they're supposed to be getting like three thousand arrests a day and the other thing is like when they do detain you you know in a normal situation a reporter gets detained in a protest you might get thrown in jail for like a few hours maybe maybe the weekend you might miss filing your story and then you know you go home with the ice detention facilities like they might just put you somewhere and so if you're a reporter and you're trying to cover this they've already made filming their activities a possible crime according to what is mpsm seven they if you film their activity they can charge you with terrorism they can they can charge with obstruction and there's really no oversight for what they're doing so the risks are just a lot higher than any sort of protest movement I've ever seen and I believe what is it is it an nspm seven right national security presidential memorandum seven nspm seven yeah is basically an executive order that is meant to dismantle left-wing terrorism and basically allowing the government to qualify people as domestic terrorists or domestic terrorist organizations which allows for different standard of prosecution and yeah so that adding to adding to all that confusion and chaos so you you you know you saw this you you you wrote we are all content for ice it's very clear that the Department of Homeland Security has basically transformed immigration arrests into this visual propaganda online it's very clear that that there is there is a strategy here there is a lot of pressure from the administration to have ice you know really active in terms of a media campaign what purpose do you think it is serving them to do that I think everyone is trying to answer this question yeah and this might be a unfulfilling answer but I think there's a couple things happening simultaneously I think one I think the Trump administration is full of like genuinely xenophobic ideologues that want blood and soil nationalism and they love this stuff I think that Trump is a creature of the media and he sort of understands that everything has to have a media component to it and we've seen that like I don't think that he's playing for dimensional chess but I think he understands like everything he does have to has to have some kind of news cycle attached to to feel like it matters for him well I'll just say on on January 20th which is Tuesday of this week Donald Trump posts on true social like we need more photos of people who are resting in Minneapolis we need more documentation of just how bad they are like it's very clear that well he's not playing for dimensional chess that we know of he is as you said just like hyper aware yeah of the the idea that like this needs to be fed people need to have this this raw meat of like our nation is under siege in order to continue to support and to justify right and I think the last part of this is I think it is safe to assume that the Trump administration is inside of their own filter bubble I think this is happening across culture on mass and I think based on the reports of seeing coming out of like sort of the inner circle you know if you want to if you want to believe them they were surprised that people were pissed about this and and and I have to you know I don't think Trump is actually particularly online I've never thought that I'm like I don't think he knows what what a four-channis but I do think that he has surrounded himself with podcasters and posters and I think that those people are super tapped into X was and you know we you know we haven't actually talked about this dimension of what's happening in theapolis yet but I think it's important context so I used to spend in the state for months all of this ratchets up after the YouTube documentary by the right wing influencer Nick Shirley Nick Shirley's documentary alleges fraud a daycareism in Minnesota all of it had been reported before it was even being investigated by the FBI already like they like we've known about this but the right wingers who had never heard of this because they don't read real newspapers and don't have accurate information pipelines were insensed so that to me points in the direction of that these people genuinely do not know things and you can say it's by design you can say it's because they're all stupid you can say it's because they're addicted to the internet it could be a combination of the three but that does inform their behavior and we've seen this all year that you know all of last year they are the administration is doing things because they see them online right and also I think to there's the other side of this and and you wrote about this can't believe this was also in January when the United States made it Venezuela but you know the idea of a content first administration but some of you wrote I'm gonna quote you to yourself here which is always fun I know you said politics and political violence is now something performed first and foremost for an online audience it almost doesn't matter what happens IRL if it makes noise online and I think that you know it's not just what you're saying which is that there is this filter bubble there's this idea that like this is acceptable right like like there whatever over to the window or whatever you want to call it like that that this is fine we can do this people won't be mad if we act in this particular way but there's also the idea of that imagined audience that you know maybe someone it sees on on on X or some other place or whatever but it's this idea of like like almost like one upsmanship right it's like okay you you do this video of what's happening in Minneapolis supposedly you know with daycares and Somalian refugees and we're gonna like basically perform fan service right by sending a paramilitary force into that town it it seems like that level of the performance is really really important here yeah so once again for people who are not like mainlining this stuff all day and they're sort of thinking like okay Trump to it's a little more in your face it's got like a fresh new attitude but it's like basically this it's you know it's the same idea and there's like a core loop has changed Trump won he wakes up at the morning he watches Fox and friends he performs the day he then finds out the next morning how Fox and friends has like digested what he's done and he just keeps going right so everything's kind of performed for this like TV channel that is then sort of synthesizing what he's doing and then influencing what he's doing so the the difference though between that loop and this one is that the internet is inherently a two-way street so it's not just what was sort of downstream in the first administration like the internet lights up because Trump does something because Trump saw it on TV and then TV lights up and then TV like the the role of TV in that equation kind of kind of organize things in a way there was like a rhythm to there's a much more sort of reliable rhythm to it this is way more chaotic because like Nick Shirley he's making a video based off of what he's already seeing on the internet it then goes back into the internet which then influences what's happening in reality which then influences what's happening on the internet and and I was sort of trying to figure out like okay when did this this new loop start in earnest and I and I think I have it which is the the playbook the test drive for all of this was Springfield Ohio and the conspiracy theory about Haitian immigrants either cats and cats yeah yeah that whole thing though is a perfect illustration of what is now happening everywhere all at once and it's happened and I've even seen examples of it like happening in Venezuela happening in Greenland like it's this roving kind of like internet content machine that like just sort of lands where you live and then turns everything that's happening to you into this completely inexplicable content cycle that you know for people on the ground makes no sense because it's not really meant for them and and it comes with conspiracy theories and viral videos and and racist memes and AI imagery and paramilitary violence like it's all kind of part of the same thing it's it's really interesting to to think of it as as like a almost like a storm system that like develops outside right and just like comes to your it comes to your comes to your comes to your town I I have had trouble trying to get a sense of who this is like helping who this is hurting right because on one hand you have all of this documented evidence of like what is essentially a paramilitary force drawing guns you know in public places on people deploying tear gas and pepper balls and all kinds of you know chemical sprays on citizens arresting people on whims intimidating people mocking them and there's obviously like of course the the video of an ice agent shooting a woman in broad daylight and that all adds up I think in the eyes of of people watching online or or wherever that that is doing something right to to to people and how they view the country their country and then at the same time these protests can also as as we're noting give the administration a little bit of of what it wants right it gives them content in order to depict these cities as war zones and to get a sense if this is like serving ISIS propaganda needs effectively right now or if this is in some ways just like information that is eradicizing people to get them to you know wake up to the political reality in the United States where do you see that balance or like where that's coming out at the moment that's like the million dollar question I think I mean right that's all we ask here on galaxy yes you know the million dollar questions yes thank you for asking me the most complicated question over our time um I think I I think there's a couple ways to think about it and they are again this is this is always my cop out but I do think in this case like if American monoculture ever did truly exist like like if you know we we like to imagine it did you know pre Facebook but like maybe it did maybe like the TV and movies made it feel like it existed and we could all sort of believe in that but but let's let's let's assume let's assume things are different I think there are vastly different realities happening simultaneously in America so there are people who are just not going outside and they are consuming all of this online and they are being radicalized either for or against it and that's like one camp and then there are the people that it's happening too directly the ones I talked to you were just like the most average Americans you could possibly imagine and they're like this is insanity and now I have to like do I have to like go to the federal building and blow whistles every day because these people won't leave me alone and and I've I've met those people and they are just like the most normal people you can imagine and they are in sense they're furious and then I think that there are a lot of Americans who just really do not believe that this could happen to them and those realities like don't really line up anymore because we're not all looking at the same feed of information we're all we're not all looking at the same screen and it adds to the chaos it adds to the unpredictability of all this because there might be I mean there are a lot of like non-white immigrant groypers that sit online all day talking about how they love Nick Fuentes and think the hot cost didn't happen what happens when ice breaks down one of their doors right like there are there are a lot of these keyboard warrior types who like do not imagine this could ever happen to their town and and and if it does happen in their town it's going to happen to people who deserve it in their town and yet time and time again for the last year we've seen stories come out being like I didn't think they'd take the good immigrant in my town that I liked you know and so I I don't think the average American really is prepared for the severity of what's happened like of what it happens to them and it is and I think the Trump administration's best interest to flood the zone with images of this stuff because it does make it feel abstract the average person watches and cares until no longer looks like it could happen to you and I think that does serve Trump's interests if Minneapolis looks like a complete unrecognizable war zone that's great it just means that the person watching goes that doesn't look like my backyard so like I should be fine and like you know I was I was just I was really struck in in your guys' reporting your for panic world which which came out in the video podcast form as well which people should go watch that you know some of the people you you interviewed were like and and this has been documented elsewhere as well like the most Minnesota nice you know like just sort of like oh yeah like I you know I just came from you know my shift at school or whatever you know it's like when you see that and you feel that there is this this way of just being like I think it brings the sort of like parrot it's a it's a great contrasted you know image with the paramilitary force it's like anyone who's like drawing guns on this person like we've lost we've totally lost the plot right like not it's not that it's justified when it happens to people who don't you know maybe look like you but just this idea of it's a strong visual image for people who are watching at home is what I mean I think it's also like a self perpetuating machine because you know I forget who made this point maybe it was wired I think I think it was wired last week this week they're all blending together but they are basically like January yeah they are basically like there's no reason for the proud boys to exist anymore because ice exists and so if you're running I mean Trump is him doesn't really have like an ideological center but if you had to try to define it you'd say like okay it's like grievance based and then if you open up a paramilitary force there requires what 47 days of training to join and they're not even gonna like check if you're a slate reporter or not like you can just go and hurt other people and so in a sense it almost like it almost makes logical sense that this would be the next step for Trumpism because you can't sustain that like other ring of Americans long term without some way to like get people to sign up and do it so it's almost like we have to create this paramilitary force and we have to start paying people to do this because if we don't like that energy could dissipate or they might just find out that like maybe we're not also different after all this was something that I was thinking about in a different way and it is a bit of a tangent but I've as you have been writing about you know so MAGA influencers and stuff like screeching online about Civil War since like 2017 or whatever right like people who are just like this is gonna lead to some kind of you know massive crack up type thing and then so many people that I've talked to who are actually you know experts in this type of stuff and in conflicts are like you know part of the reason why terms like Civil War are like so unhelpful is because it's incredibly difficult to imagine in certain places especially a country as big as the United States giving structure to a conflict like that right like this idea that's like so much of it is would just be like weird infighting or or or you know acts of sort of almost seemingly random terrorism or whatnot right and the thing that I have found so interesting and scary about the way that the Trump administration is not only using ice but the way that they are marketing it right this idea of all of this propaganda that's very clearly aimed at like white nationalists you know defend the homeland type of stuff the the reason why I find that so bracing in the moment is that it feels like and this is sort of I think what you're saying that it's giving structure to a conflict right it is just sort of like a repository for if you feel this way about your country being under attack or invasion or you've been radicalized by some of these platforms to the point where you know posting just isn't doing it for you anymore here's a place to go right sign up and it becomes less of like you can see if you know in a sort of like speculative way this becoming a repository for a very specific type of person and a force that actually does resemble what some of these militia like organizations were right except in this case it has government funding and and the you know according to both JD Vance's even Miller like absolute immunity for your actions and and that that is that feels like it is a completely different or like a turn of the screw on this concern about infighting in in this country yeah no I think that's exactly right and there if we take the reports at face value that morale is very bad inside of ice I do wonder how they deal with that like you know like you am I sort of saying like okay like what's next is this working is this not working and and if we say that okay those reports are correct like ice agents are miserable they join ice they're all revved up on white nationalist Facebook content and then they hit the streets and everyone's like get the fuck out of my city like I hate you I mean I heard the heckling in Minneapolis and they found out a bunch of their names and they just kept chanting like so and so quit your job so and so quit your job and like these people are becoming pariahs so that to me is like oh like your filter bubble has like lie to you you've you've joined this federal agency for like student loan forgiveness or whatever it is and now you're in the middle of Minnesota wearing shoes in the middle of January and everyone's screaming that they hate you and spitting at you and stuff you might quit and that's like a hopeful version and then there's like the scarier version which is like what does the trim administration do with that because we are dealing with like lots and lots of people who are getting revved up on stuff they're seeing online who maybe would have joined a militia and like larped Confederate soldiers in the backyard for the next five years but now they're like out with guns and they're like trying to struggle with like the cognitive dissidents of the world online and the world in real life are not the same you know what does that do to a paramilitary force like ice like what what is the next step and I assume you're right which is like they just start dehumanizing us further and further with internet content. Yeah I mean I think giving that when you as you're giving the hopeful version and I'm like well this just absolutely totally rhymes with everything that we have covered over the last you know whatever decade on the internet where it's like yeah there is this version in which everyone started like okay that was a fever dream like whoa I like the cognitive dissidents hits and you say okay yeah man I was just totally wrong like this is awful this is a terrible way to live or what tends to happen online and again doesn't always happen in the real world because there is more friction there is this idea of doubling down right well why declare being wrong when I could just simply make up a reality or make up something right exactly I want to ask you to try to put some of this into into some context and I'm going to do the wonderful thing where I quote you again but I went back and I read a story we both used to work at Buzzfeed news you wrote this back in late 2018 I think it was after Bolsonaro won in Brazil and I believe that you were there on the ground but I'm gonna read this you said quote I have followed that dark revolution of internet culture ever since I have had the privilege or deeply strange curse to chase the growth of global political warfare around the world and the last four years have been to 22 countries six continents been on the ground for close to a dozen referendums and elections I was in London for the UK's nervous breakdown of a Brexit in Barcelona for Catalonia's failed attempts at a session from Spain in Sweden as neo nazis tried to march on the country's largest book fair and now I'm in Brazil but this era of being surprised with the internet can and will do to us is ending the damage is done I am trying to come to terms with the fact that I'll probably spend the rest of my career covering the consequences I have a few questions here and the first is do you still feel like you can draw a straight line between all this that you know was there and all that has come after from covid to george floyd to january six to trump two to Minneapolis now like do you do you feel like there's a straight line here did it break off and shift in different directions uh with the benefit of hindsight I think the attitude in 2018 to say this is all because of internet platforms is a little simplistic I think it's a little a historical looking at the whole picture or at least the picture up to now it seems clear that the sort of post cold war geopolitical order this kind of like neo liberal end of history idea was deeply alienating and frustrating for people the the the concept that we are all kind of done and we're just going to get like incrementally better in progressive ways maybe we'll have like a republican comment and kind of calm things down and then we'll go back and forth and that idea was extremely frustrating to people and when social media appeared it allowed people to communicate without arbiters for the first time so you start to see things like the run Paul presidential campaign in 2008 which I've gone back to several times because I think it's such a fascinating sort of like proto type of of everything sense occupied Wall Street Arab spring the very very first black lives matter stuff and what I think you and I and other people doing this work were not really totally getting because of the nature of the way we cover it which is not a problem in just that like no one can see the whole picture is that like the technology wasn't creating the technology didn't really create pathways that weren't there what it did was allow us to see them and so and it's why I said earlier in the episode that you know we I don't know if monoculture was as monolithic as we assume it was pre internet it could just be that we didn't know and so I think there is a straight line from let's say the launch of message boards in the 90s to now and Facebook and everything else along the way but it's not like Facebook conjured up some kind of political environment that wasn't there it's it's that like it gave people like duterte like Modi like Bolsonaro like Trump like Le Pen got to catch them all all these people it gave them the ability to speak to an audience that was already alienated and already angry and already bored and that dovetailed perfectly with the way internet technology has developed in that same time frame so you know now we're at a point where they are essentially the same thing what is good for the internet is good for your populist far right movement and I think that will sound right five more years from now I think yeah I don't know right I thank you for for your reporting on this for being in the the pain the emotional pain cave the internet brain damage thunder dome with me for all these years and and thanks thanks for all your insights on this man thank you that's it for us thank you again to my guest Ryan Broderick if you like what you saw here today new episodes of galaxy brain drop every friday and if you want to support this work work of myself and all of my colleagues at the Atlantic you can do so and support the publication by subscribing at the Atlantic dot com slash listener that's the Atlantic dot com slash listener thanks so much and I'll see you on the internet this episode of galaxy brain was produced by Nathaniel from and edited by Claudine Abade it was engineered by Dave grine our theme music is by Rob smersiac Claudine Abade is the executive producer of Atlantic audio and Andrea valdez is our managing editor
