Are Police Keeping Evidence They Shouldn't? | Nancy Guthrie Missing Day 27

Verzuurde kuiten, brandende longen, verkleumde vingers. Dat is hoe jij het liefst weer in jouw elektrische Ford Explorer stapt. Om weer helemaal op te laden. Ready met een rijbereik tot wel 602 kilometer. En zakelijk al vanaf 212 euro per maand. Boek nu jouw proefrit op Ford.nl. Ready, set, Ford. Starting a business can be overwhelming. You're juggling multiple roles. Designer, marketer, logistics manager. All while bringing your vision to life. Shopify helps millions of business sell online. Build fast with templates and AI descriptions and photos, inventory and shipping. Sign up for your one euro per month trial and start selling today at Shopify.nl. That's Shopify.nl. It's time to see what you can accomplish with Shopify by your side. Hey everyone, welcome. I'm Ashley Banfield. This is Drop Dead Serious. It's really nice to have you here. We're at the end of the week. We made it to Friday. Big favor, hit subscribe. It is a huge favor to me, and I so appreciate seeing you and then seeing the numbers of you actually growing because we have become a pretty cool little community. Love it if you join our club as well. We do special things for the club members. But let me tell you, we are at day 27 of the Nancy Guthrie investigation, and we are heading into the weekend that will take us to one month. And I really cannot believe that we are at one month with, honest to God, nothing to go on. I hate saying that because I know that investigators are working hard behind the scenes. I know that. The people on the ground are busting their asses. The rank and file, they don't sleep at night. They're working so hard. But to feel out here in, you know, the public that we don't have a car to look for, we don't have, you know, any more to go on for this huge community of us to crime solve as a crowdsource. Listen, lots of people have hit sleuthers hard. But the truth of the matter is that many eyes are really valuable in trying to solve a case. Just ask the Petitos. Gabby Petito was found because of YouTubers. So the crowdsourcing that all of us as a community can do is really remarkable. And I don't have to tell you that the first thing that a lot of sheriff's departments and police departments and homicide units do is try to enlist the public for tips. Have you seen? Why do you think we've had crime stoppers for decades? Because the public can help and often does. But in this instance, it worries me that we are coming up on the one month mark and there's not much for us to go on to help. And it may mean because there's not much that they have to go on. Let me tell you some stuff that at least happened today. It's not that there's nothing happening. There are some things happening. Matt Finn from Fox News said actually there was a lot of activity at Nancy Guthrie's house. Nothing like the last few days where all the blue suits showed up. But a white SUV pulled into the driveway, and Matt said that there was a person shielding their face with a hood crawling out of the back of the SUV, and it looked like they were carrying like a document case, and they went inside the home. Don't know who it is. Can't tell you, and neither did Matt. But other reports said that handymen showed up today. In fact, on video, you could see them hammering in security signs around Nancy Guthrie's home. And Matt Finn saw yesterday workers who were either fiddling with or installing new security surveillance cameras at Nancy's home as well. And that's not the only place. Matt confirmed that those security cameras were installed yesterday at Nancy's, and his colleague Michael Ruiz at Fox Digital said that there was activity at Annie's home and that they were adding new cameras at Annie's home as well. So just a little bit of activity. I mean, look, there's been hundreds of people up and down the street of Nancy's home and Annie's home. And there's been law enforcement at both homes throughout the last four weeks. Right. And so, yeah, looky-loos, maybe even trespassers. You know, they had to say, actually, the sheriff had to say, if you're out searching, you need permission to go on private property. And I don't know if they were specifically referring to people who've gone on to Annie or Nancy's property, but I'm sure that searchers out there may have been wandering onto some private property. And the sheriff was trying to just caution people, you have to get permission for that. Also, there's news today about that video that a neighbor of Nancy Guthrie's in the Catalina foothills alerted Fox to. I mean, yesterday, Fox just had this bombshell, right? A neighbor two and a half miles away from Nancy's house said they recorded 12 cars going by their front door camera that looks out on the street between midnight and 6 a.m. Twelve, yes, but one was significant. One of them went flying by at 2.36 a.m. That is eight minutes after Nancy Guthrie's pacemaker separated from her devices in the home. And it's also the timestamp that the sheriffs have said, that's when we believe Nancy was taken out of the home. Eight minutes. And it's only a seven-minute drive from Nancy's home to this home that recorded these cars out front, and specifically the one at 2.36 a.m. So we were all, you know, kind of hopeful that this might go somewhere. and loads of people weighing in, law enforcement and otherwise, saying that they thought that the vehicle seen in the dead of night flying by might be a Kia Soul, a white Kia Soul. But one report came in today from TMZ, and they said that they have a source connected to the investigation that says the FBI is effectively dismissing that video, saying that the FBI has, quote, looked at the video and it's a dead end, end quote. But the only thing I'm going to say there is I haven't seen that confirmed anywhere else. And loads of us all have FBI sources and we can't second that reporting. So listen, TMZ's had some great reporting and they often have phenomenal reporting. I'm just not sure about this one, though, that the FBI is dismissing it because that's really, really quick. And the reason I say it's really, really quick is because Michael Ruiz said that the FBI arrived at that house, you know, the one with the 12 cars on video, just yesterday, just yesterday in the evening, Thursday evening, right? Ruiz breaks the story Thursday, and the FBI is at that house Thursday night. And we're not even 24 hours, or I might be around 24 hours now. And there's only one report that the FBI has dismissed this. I just wondered how long it would take the FBI to dismiss that car, right? Is it possible that they just flooded that neighborhood with agents looking for a white Kia Soul and saw one in a driveway and knocked and said, were you driving February 1st at 2.36 in the morning? And the person said, yeah, that's when I get home from work. And they could check that alibi really fast. Of course that's possible. It just seemed very quick to me that within 12 hours, we're already getting a report that the FBI considers it a dead end. So I'm going to withdraw, withhold, and hang back on the judgment on that one. And I'm really, really hoping that it was a communication error, and that it's not a dead end, and that maybe this might lead to something. Because honestly, what else have we got to go on? We don't have a suspect's face or a license plate or a vehicle description. And you know, in Koberger, I'm going to get to how significant the timeline is in Koberger in just a minute with regard to how the crowdsourcing and the public dissemination of a vehicle was very, very helpful in solving that case. And the timeline of the case also very interesting as we approach the one month mark. That's coming up in just a minute. But it's really hard to believe we're coming up on one month and we're just, we don't have a vehicle. And when we do have a vehicle, 12 hours later, reports we may not have one. So NBC also said that a federal official told them that, quote, the FBI and Pima County Sheriff's Office have amassed five to 10,000 hours of video that is being processed, end quote. And this is, of course, connected to the Nancy investigation. You know, listen, they have spectacular tools in their arsenal to enhance video and to look and see what they might be able to see that the naked eye wouldn't see. But when they get these hours and hours and hundreds and hundreds, hopefully, of these videos, it has to be looked at with the naked eye first in real time. So you do the math. If you've got five to 10,000 hours of video, and you have to watch them in real time, how many agents can they actually, you know, delegate to this task? It takes a lot of time, a lot of time. I don't know how many agents, so I can't do the math for you. Even if I could, I'm not good at it fast. But it just, it is an excruciating process. So know that, that at first pass, the first set of eyes have to go through this video, and then second and third passes, and then the enhancements can happen after that. To that end, let me read you something from the Pima County Sheriff's Department, which I was delighted to get a statement today, February 27th, day 27, because just a couple days ago, we were told we would not be getting regular statements only when, you know, certain things warranted, but they've given us a collection of, you know, topics. And let me start with this. And this is the boldface, you know, header, investigation, colon. This remains an active investigation and will continue until Nancy Guthrie is located or all leads have been exhausted. Please remember that because I'm about to interview somebody who knows a lot about what that sentence means. All leads have been exhausted. If you're thinking that means cold case, you're right. Definition of cold case is all leads have been exhausted and there's more to it than that. That's why my guest who's coming up is so critical, because Chris McDonough is the Director of Law Enforcement Relations for the Cold Case Foundation. Also, you know, years and years and years as a homicide detective, and I'm going to ask him a little bit about this. We're coming up on a month, and I know a lot of people have been throwing the, is this case going cold? When is it officially a cold case? These kinds of questions have been thrown around. Well, you're going to get the straight dope on that. But not only that, because he's a homicide detective, he also has a lot to say about some of the most recent developments in this case, especially this vehicle and another vehicle. So don't go anywhere because as for what the sheriff is saying, it's significant. Starting a business can be overwhelming. You're juggling multiple roles, designer, marketer, logistics manager, all while bringing your vision to life. Shopify helps millions of business sell online. Build fast with templates and AI descriptions and photos, inventory and shipping. Sign up for your one euro per month trial and start selling today at Shopify.nl. That's Shopify.nl. It's time to see what you can accomplish with Shopify by your side. It's significant. Until all leads have been exhausted. It continues to say the Pima County Sheriff's Department is refocusing resources. to detectives specifically assigned to this case. That makes me nervous when I see a change, you know, earlier this week, the FBI said they're going to be moving their operations up to their Phoenix headquarters. They said, don't worry, we still have a footprint. But you know, it just makes me nervous that there's a reallocation, right? As cases go on and on and on, you just can't have those 400 or so, you know, manpower on one particular case. There's other crimes to solve. It's just, it's the way it is. So that was interesting. Refocusing resources to detectives specifically assigned to the case. And then the sheriff says, as leads are developed and resolved, resource allocation may fluctuate. I get that. We're drawing down, but when we need, we'll bring them up. You know, that could be what he's trying to say here. Pym County Sheriff's Department will maintain a patrol presence in the Guthrie neighborhood. Then the next boldface headline from the sheriff in the statement video. Investigators are actively reviewing surveillance video of vehicles traveling in the Catalina Foothills area, including areas farther from the Guthrie residence. We have asked homeowners in the surrounding community to submit any relevant footage and encourage anyone who has not done so to please share the video using the link below. It is, by the way, if you have it, It's PimaSheriff.Evidence.com slash A-X-O-N slash community. We're going to put that in the link. That's easier, okay? That's so interesting because what Pima Sheriff is effectively saying is all this talk about yesterday's, I think, yesterday's video may just mean we are actively looking at it, you know, further from the Guthrie residence, including areas farther from the Guthrie residence. And they're asking the community to continue submitting. So that's very helpful, right? Maybe they're going outside of that two-mile radius. That's where they had asked everybody for video between Feb 1 and Feb 30, and they'd actually had agents going to several people saying, we want Feb 11 specifically. We have never determined why Feb 11. People have guessed maybe that's the date of the second picture, right? Because sources have now said that the video of the perpetrator with the backpack is on a different day from the perpetrator without the backpack or without the gun. Was that second video? January 11th. We don't know. They won't tell us. But it stands to reason there's something about January 11th that's important because several people have been asked for video on January 11th in the neighborhood. Okay. There was an arrest yesterday and everybody went, you know, a bit bananas out in front of Nancy Guthrie's home. It is not connected. And the sheriff actually said, Listen, it's a 34-year-old guy arrested for DUI, not related to the investigation. So I think people got very excited. Tips continue to come in. They ask the press, please contact the various agencies that are actually running the tip lines for info. So that's it from the sheriff. Not a lot. Again, here we are, day 27. Not much to go on. Like I said, I really hope there's more that they're working on behind the scenes. The parking restriction. I've mentioned this a couple times because now it's been a couple of days, and I saw some video of Brian Enten hoofing it through 87 degrees. That was the temperature today in Tucson a couple hours ago. And Brian Enten was hoofing it with his gear because they now have to park way outside Nancy's community. Several blocks, and when I say blocks, the blocks are long, folks. It's a long, long, dusty, hot walk in the Arizona desert. desert and there's Brian continuing his work is is this what the sheriff's trying to do getting rid of us Brian said it worked there were a lot less media there because look if you don't have power if you don have Wi if you don have temperature control to just get a break from the extreme heat during the day all of your gear right Some of those live trucks, all of it. If you can't park anywhere near Nancy Guthrie's home, you can't report from there anymore. You can't see the activity from there. And it's important to see some of that activity. Is it an effort to get rid of us? To that end, Alicia Acuna from Fox, who I've known of for so long. She's been in the national news, at least as long as I have. I think she's stationed in Denver for Fox News. She tweeted something I thought so profound. She said, the Elizabeth Smart case is an excellent example of how keeping the victim's face in the public mind matters and how the willingness of law enforcement to work with the media matters, too. Uh, yeah, Alicia's right. And it's, it's unbelievable to see this kind of an action taken against the media. I look back at an interview that the sheriff did with NBC News in the immediate hours, I think within 24 hours or so after Mrs. Guthrie disappeared. And the sheriff is thanking the media for helping to get the word out. Boy, have we come a long way. Now he's either trying to torture the media or shoo them away. And yes, I understand that some of the neighbors are pissed off about all of this activity out in front of their home. Yes, I get it. You should ask the neighbors who lived next door to Elian Gonzalez in the early 2000s, right? That was insane as well. Anytime there's a massive story, the media shows up. And again, it's a blessing and a curse. I get it. but Elizabeth Smart is a great example. You know, once the media goes away, the attention to the case goes away, the tips go away, and the case cools off, and one day could go cold. That's something you don't want. There was a really nice neighbor in this community who actually said to Brian Enten, you can park in my driveway, and there are many neighbors who have said to the media as well out in front, look, we get it, We know it's a pain to have you guys out here, but we're thankful that you're here because when you're gone, it means the story's gone and Nancy's not back yet. So it's a, again, blessing and a curse. Not every neighbor hates the fact that the media is there. Some of them are really thankful that Nancy's getting this attention. And I can tell you right now, you can look at the inbox of anybody in the media on how many missing persons cases are desperate for attention. Right? Many eyes. Many eyes. That helps a case. So I don't know what the sheriff's doing with the parking. So here we are. As we go into the weekend, I thought it would be a really good idea because this weekend will mark the one-month mark since Nancy Guthrie disappeared to talk to somebody whose literal business is the length of a case. As I mentioned, Chris McDonough is the Director of Law Enforcement Relations with the Cold Case Foundation. But Chris also has so much more to his resume. He was a homicide detective for many years. And so he can see many sides of a case. And he's got a podcast called The Interview Room. So he's also technically part of the media as well. So listen, he knows a thing or two. Knows a lot more than I do anyway. Here's my conversation with Chris McDonough. Chris, you know, everybody talks about the one-month mark. Is this case cold? A lot of people throw that term out very, very quickly that the case is going cold. There's an actual definition for what a cold case is, and this case is not, right? Right. I totally agree. It's not. There are two lanes going here, one from the Pima County Sheriff's Office, and of course, then the federal authorities are running down their leads. But leads, I mean, look, they've talked about upwards of 40,000 leads. We haven't had an update on that since, but 40,000 different tips being called in. Um, they've also mentioned hundreds of hours of surveillance video, NBC actually saying five to 10,000 hours of surveillance video. That is far from a cold case. That's, that's active work. And a lot of people gumshoeing, um, even, even at this, you know, closing in on the one month mark. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, there are systems that, you know, agencies have access to specifically the feds, where they can run that video quickly through, you know, some AI type of systems that will parse out those kind of leads that are, you know, video leads that, you know, that type of stuff. There's a system called BriefCam. They've since changed their name, but they're an Israeli company. Those were the same folks that, you know, counted the gunshots during the Las Vegas shooting. And then they were able to trace all of that evidence, you know, within a matter of probably eight hours, they had it down. So those are the kind of systems that are available to the, you know, the FBI to run the cars and all that video through. So it's really interesting you say that because it feels like such an incredibly daunting task. And then, you know, NBC also reporting, although tools can enhance video, each must be reviewed by an investigator in real time to start. Does that mean that even with these incredible tools that are available, they still use Realize in real time for every one of those hours of video? After, so what the system will do is, let's say you have a particular anomaly in a vehicle. Let's hypothesize that some of the neighborhood videos picked up, like these 12 cars that have recently been reported, okay? Let's say two of those cars were blue, okay? So in this system, you'll be able to just type in, you know, some search parameters that find me all the blue cars, okay? And the system will find all of those blue cars that have ever passed through, you know, not only the input data that you're giving it, i.e. from the neighborhood, but let's say they have other camera systems in the city of Tucson. It'll also search those systems as well. And it will provide the investigator with a whole list of all the type of vehicles within a certain timeframe, within a color frame or anything like that. And those are the ones that go eyes on. Once you, you know, you see the vehicle leaving the neighborhood hypothetically, you know, at a certain timeframe and it's white or blue, whatever it's going to be. Those are the videos that you're going to pull up pretty quickly and the AI will sort that out for you. Go ahead. Well, I'm curious only because I think about a blue vehicle, but the Catalina Foothills is pitch black and the video is so bad. How good is the technology at determining these features when all I'm seeing is just a light flying by? Yeah, well, in that area, you know, you're going to get the inbound and outbound traffic, right? So investigators are focusing primarily, I would suspect, inbound. Who is coming into the Catalina neighborhoods? And in Tucson, there's a system called FLOCK, F-L-O-C-K. They're called FLOCK cameras and their license LPR capability as well as- License plate reader. Right. And digital capability, right? So they're checking that system and they're going to run it through to find out what type of cars came into the neighborhood, and they're going to give it a parameter to search. And once they get the type of cars around, you know, let's say between midnight and, you know, three in the morning, right, in this particular case, well, that system is going to narrow that search parameter down pretty quickly. And you're going to put an analyst behind that camera, and you're going to watch all those cars coming in, and then it's going to see if there's a linkage that puts it into her neighborhood, i.e. with the one coming out. Well, I've heard that the Flock cameras are really bad and that there hasn't, for whatever reason, Tucson seems to have a real struggle and challenge with recording images of vehicles. Many of their traffic cameras are just to monitor the flow, but not to record. Some of the Flock cameras are apparently not up to the task, which seems crazy to me. I mean, why have them? Yeah, no, that's a great point, Ashley. And it's a very robust system, trust me. They may be playing it down, kind of tucking it in their back pocket. But now the traffic cameras will not record in terms of like the Flock system, The FLOC system is specifically designed for LPR, that license plate reader, that kind of stuff, but not the traffic cameras. The traffic cameras are there just to continue correcting the flow of traffic for Arizona Department of Transportation. So to be just, I just want to put a button in this because, again, it's a significant weekend coming into week four. Cold in your business, Cold Case Foundation, means literally no lead. I mean, you tell me if I'm right here or wrong, but it means no leads. Everything has dried up. There's just nowhere left to go. That's effectively what it means when a case goes cold, correct? Yeah. When an investigator is sitting at their desk and the phone's not ringing, you have no tips, you have nothing going on, at some point, your agency is going to say, you need to suspend that case because there's nothing happening. And so they suspend it. And once it goes into, you know, that category, then that's when the case becomes cold. And it basically, you know, homicide, there's no statute of limitations on anything like that. I'm not saying this is the case, but, you know, typically if you have homicide investigators from the get-go, then they're the tip of the spear. And so once that case goes silent, they put it up on a shelf. And then years later, organizations like us are contacted and saying, hey, here's what we have. Can you help us? And that's not the case here. There's still, again, thousands of hours of video to go through. But what do you make of the Pima County Sheriff putting out that little piece there in the statement today that says they're refocusing resources to detectives specifically assigned to the case. And as leads are developed and resolved, resource allocation may fluctuate. Is that euphemistic for we're a bit, we're drawing down? Well, I think there's two things happening. And, you know, right from the get-go, the Pima County Sheriff's Office called in, you know, their investigators, right? And as this thing started to build within 24 to 48 hours, they realized that this thing was going to get bigger and bigger and bigger. And so they needed digital capabilities, i.e. that's where the FBI is the best in the world at coming in with, you know, digital support and manpower. And so I think what happened in the very beginning is the sheriff said, look, this is our case. And then he realized, OK, this thing is getting bigger. Now, whenever the call was made to the ASAC, the agent in charge in Phoenix or Tucson, probably out of the Phoenix office would be my best guess out of the headquarters there. at some point the decision was made, hey, we need to get the feds involved in this thing. And now, so what that did is it created two lanes, okay? And you get one lead detective from the homicide group of Pima County and one agent that's assigned to work together, okay? Those two individuals are the tip of the spear for both agencies. Everybody else underneath that our resources, okay? And I think what the sheriff is saying is our resources, i.e. Pima County, we're going to kind of pull those back. We're going to still keep investigators moving this way, i.e. the homicide team, and we're going to let the FBI take a more productive role in trying to narrow down some of the, you know, massive amounts of data and information that they're probably getting in. So they're probably getting overloaded. And the sheriff is recognizing that, okay, this is getting bigger than I even have the resources. Because remember, he still has to solve crimes on a daily basis with inside of a city. But the feds can pick it up pretty rapidly and run. Do you think that the feds have as many officers also and agents on this case? Because we just got word from them this week that they're actually drawing back many of their personnel to the Phoenix headquarters, but also at the same time trying to tell us the footprint is staying the same, the boots on the ground are still hard at work. But again, I always wonder if that's just language to soften what eventually will be we're having to scale back. Well, yeah, I think there's, again, I think the mobile command area, okay, which we would, let's call it the war room, okay, which is probably at the Pima County Sheriff's Department. You've got the FBI and you've got Pima County Sheriff both working out of that, you know, war room. The feds are going to pull back into theirs, you know, headquarters in Phoenix. And then the Pima County is going to pull back, you know, take the command center down and move it into the investigations division there at Pima County. So I, again, I believe that both of these lanes are going to still be in motion. And they are working, I think, on the street level, agent to agent guys and the gals, they're all getting along and they're moving forward. But at the podium where politicians and all those other folks belong, there's this perception of we're not getting along, but they are down here. They're moving in the right direction, I think. Yeah. I would love to get you to weigh in on this mysterious vehicle at 2.36 in the morning, two and a half miles away from Nancy Guthrie's home, but eight minutes away from the time her pacemaker separated, and it's only a seven-minute drive. I've only seen one report, TMZ, saying that the FBI source that they have has looked at the video and it's a dead end. But I haven't seen anybody else say that. And it feels like it's almost too soon from the discovery of it yesterday to be running it down by today. Is it too soon? What do you make of it? Starting a business can be overwhelming. You're juggling multiple roles, designer, marketer, logistics manager, all while bringing your vision to life. Shopify helps millions of business sell online. Build fast with templates and AI descriptions and photos, inventory and shipping. Sign up for your one euro per month trial and start selling today at Shopify.nl. That's Shopify.nl. It's time to see what you can accomplish with Shopify by your side. Well, they may have identified that driver already and already done an interview. and you know they've probably they may have already looked at the footprint of you know the the digital footprint of that individual if the person had a phone or or etc the cast team is really the best at sorting that out fast okay and so they may have already sat down with that person and you know said why were you in the you know the neighborhood at 2 36 in the morning etc etc and they may have felt comfortable that okay we good to go this person not involved They admit that they were there This is what they were doing They have an alibi Yeah And you just say okay let move on Let's not go down the rabbit hole. It just seems so quick, Chris. Like it just surfaced yesterday in the evening and already by, you know, not even 24 hours later, dead end. And do you think that they can, you said the CAS team, remind me what that acronym stands for. It's the cellular analysis team. Okay. So you think they can run down, first of all, identify that vehicle on that dark grainy picture, then find it somewhere in the neighborhood, find the driver, run down the leads on that person, check their cellular, you know, footprint, digital footprint, and maybe find an alibi. Does that all sound legit? That could happen in 24 hours? Yeah. I mean, remember, they already have that cellular, you know, they have those anomalies now, and they've had them for weeks. and they probably had that anomaly. And let's think through this to your point where if the suspect did not have a cell phone, then that's telling us a little bit more about his behavior or her behavior, whoever it's gonna end up being. But if these other people had cell phones, let's take the guy out of Tucson that may have been the DoorDash driver, right? What's the first thing they did? They took his phones. and they put that through Celebrite. They downloaded everything and then they threw it, you know, the cash team and then they put that within that digital footprint that they have. I guarantee you they have it. You know, you've been doing this for quite some time. They have that footprint. It's sitting there, kind of like when Koberger, you know, kept showing up, you know, 12 times. They knew that that phone either was going to be turned off or it's coming into that geographic triangle that they, it's called a geofence. Geofence, yeah. So anything that passes that geofence, they may have already had that leaving. And now they can say, oh, well, look, we've got video. Let's go, let's get on these people right now. And so they may have already made that correlation. Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. Thank you for that. Because I was thinking, goodness, that's awfully quick to be running. And again, I don't know. There's only one source saying that, quote, the video is a dead end. Only one source saying that, but not a lot of other sources backing it up. So I'm still keeping an open mind. You mentioned the cell phone. So I just want to ask you about something I was talking with Maureen O'Connell about yesterday. And that was the picture in the pocket of the suspect on the doorbell cam. His pocket seems to have something sticking out of it. it's hard to tell whether it's the you know the the leading edge of a cell phone of an iphone whether it is the antenna maybe of a walkie-talkie which is what maureen thought it was um maybe even a lock pick pen which some sleuthers have thought but i woke up this morning and i thought why didn't i ask maureen if it was a wi-fi jammer i don't know what a wi-fi jammer looks like i don't know if you do but is it possible that that's what that thing is sticking out of his pocket you know i want to never say never right because i've been in this game you know for quite some time and you always get broadsided by you know when you sit down with the suspect and he says well why didn't you figure that piece of the puzzle out and so i don't know what that is in his pocket uh personally uh i would say if it's a you know just check off the boxes if it's A Wi-Fi jammer, that's going to give us some sophistication in relationship to his capability of, you know, understanding how things work. OK, that's actually to his detriment because that that narrows down your suspect list. OK, that takes your gardener, that takes your pool guy, you know, not saying anything detrimental against those two. But, you know, are those the kind of guys that are going to show up at, you know, two o'clock in the morning, abduct an 84 year old woman? take that risk as a suspect, okay, and rather than lower their risk, okay? So this puts this individual in a higher risk category for themselves, okay, and a more sophisticated type of thinker, okay? And when you see the guy on the porch trying to, you know, take weeds and cover the camera, you got to go, this guy's really not the sharpest tool on the shed right now. Yeah. So less likely that this would be a Wi-Fi jammer. And by the way, wouldn't someone who uses a Wi-Fi jammer, wouldn't that actually show up in some of the digital data and the history of the home? Yeah, the cash team will see that. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Talk to me a little bit about the timeline, because like I said, we've been talking about when does the case go cold? What's the definition of cold? Doesn't apply here. But a lot of people are very, understandably, very upset that we're coming into a week. You know, we're coming into a month and we have so little to go on. But it's interesting to be reminded of the timeline in the Koberger case. And let me just sort of go over that a little bit. The murders happened on November 13th, right? The white Elantra was announced to all of us 19 days later, three and a half weeks later on December 7th. That's a long time. They ID'd the DNA of the suspect, you know, the DNA that was on the knife sheath. They did that on December 19th silently, didn't tell us. That's five weeks in. And they arrested Brian Koberger on December 30th, which is just about seven weeks in. So if you look at a timeline like that, with all of your history as a homicide detective and obviously working cold cases, should people be as anxious as they are right now at approximately the one month mark without any movement in the case public movement? No, I don't think there's cause for alarm right now. Personally, I think the authorities are holding a lot of things close to the chest. They're pushing out information. Unfortunately, some of it is mixed messaging, which is causing all of this angst with inside of the community as well as on social media. There is a lot of things in this timeline that are not lining up if we listen to the press conferences, which causes this, you know, gap to say, well, wait a minute, who's lying or who's telling the truth? Why are they being like this? And so personally, that falls onto the sheriff. He, in the very beginning, and this is my personal opinion, in the very beginning, he started pushing information out haphazardly. He should have just had a standard press conference And you've been to hundreds of these things in your career where everybody gathers at the sheriff's office. He stands at the podium. He didn't do this the first night. He did it outside in the dark in front of Nancy's house. But the next day when his PIO said, hey, sheriff, you better get the information out appropriately here because it's going crazy. And he brought his PIO in. he should have kept that pace going because that would have kept all the media right there at the sheriff's department. Every day they knew they were going to get a debrief at 10 a.m. or whatever time it was going to be. It may not have been anything, but it was enough for you to do your job as professional correspondents. And it was enough for him to say, okay, everybody's happy. We can focus on the house. We can keep doing the other stuff. And that didn't happen. So that has caused this stress with inside of the community to say, this thing is falling apart. I know what's happening behind the scenes based on my own experience. And that was a huge mistake in the beginning. So that threw the timeline off because now you've got the Bitcoin stuff, all that noise going on over here and people changing that. The pizza guy shows up and automatically, somebody's at the house. The pool guy, the gardener, they all showed up. And it was like- It's like a circus. Yeah, it was instantaneous news. He could have contained all of that at the sheriff's department. And it would have been much more effective. But I think the timeline, the anomalies for me, you know, one thing we haven't seen, Ashley, is did what was the point of entry into that house? He's kept that under his hat. He's just kind of said, hey, the back door was open. No, he didn't. He wouldn't confirm that. That was a source that I had who said back door, two sources of mine, two law enforcement sources said back door wide open. he wouldn't confirm it. Yeah. And, and well, that's, and that's what a great point that is, right? Because he should have just said, look, you know, the family showed up, they went through, this is how they got in. Because what does he tell us? He tells us what happened the night before, you know, 948, the garage door goes up, 950, the garage door goes down. Okay, great. Let's, let's fast forward to the morning. How'd they get in the house, Sheriff? Well, we're not talking about that. Why? Why aren't you telling the public that piece of the puzzle? You notice that timeline doesn't exist. It just says around 11. That was the first concept. Then it was around 11.56. And then a couple of minutes later, the 911 call comes in. Well, that left people going, well, wait a minute. At first you said 11. So that's like 56 minutes. Is that how long it took to look for mom. I mean, and so it started all this conspiracy concept, for lack of a better term, in a 24-hour digital, you know, world today. But at this point, we still don't know how she got in. And so the other day, I started looking at that house. You know how many points of entry there are into that house? Six. Six? Six. You've got the front door. You have the garage door. you have the two back doors the blue doors and guess what you have two patio doors on the side of the house okay with a four-foot pony wall okay well the suspects in the front of the house at whatever time that was i forget what the the digital time was well we we haven't had a confirmation on what time the front of the house was all we know is 1 47 a.m cameras are um they're They're separated. They're muddled with in some way. And then 2.12 a.m., an image appears on the cameras. So it's hard to know what time the actual stuff happened at the front door. Okay. So let's say we can put the suspect in front of the house, whatever, they're going to narrow that time frame down, right? Because in that press conference, he did give those digital times, right? When her pacemaker disconnected, et cetera. Well, there's a four foot pony wall in the front of the house that all the guy had to do was jump over and he's at the sliding door either into her bedroom or a bathroom. OK, so is that the point of entry? And if so, I think he needs to clarify some things because it was reported that the back door was left open, wide open. Well, then let's ask the question that the family shows up in the morning looking for mom. How did they get in the house? there's a gate going back into the pool next to the casita. They didn't go through the garage because we would have had that data point when that garage door opened that morning. We don't have that time. We have the night before. So did they go through the front door? Well, they would have seen the blood. That doesn't make sense. Did they go through the garage? We don't know. We don't have a data point for that. If you opened it up by an app, you'd have that data point. OK, we don't have that number. So that left this mystery concept of, well, how did the family get in? And he hasn't addressed that at all to the public. But should nobody knows. But I mean, if that's part of the investigation, should they keep that close to the vest? Why? Well, you know, I always wonder why is it they keep certain things close to the vest and other things they don't. And sometimes it doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but I'm not the one who's, you know, the duck is paddling under the water and looks very calm above the water. I don't know what they're doing under the water. Right. So, you know, there are certain things that you do hold, you know, close to the vest that only the suspect would know. But if you're telling the public, OK, well, here's two data points from the family that drove mom, who, by the way, is a passenger in the car. So here's the first question that he didn't answer was, does she have the app on her phone to open the garage door? And did she open the garage door? So what's the pattern of life for mom? Okay, Nancy. Because if she hit that data point at 948, as they're pulling into the driveway for her to get out, okay, well, then she opened that door. right so now you go to the next morning and the concept is well if you drop mom off at the house in the garage doors how she typically gets in how do you get in that's how i would have asked the question how do you get in typically when you go to visit your mother-in-law or your your your mom okay and that's important information starting a business can be overwhelming you're juggling multiple roles, designer, marketer, logistics manager, all while bringing your vision to life. Shopify helps millions of business sell online. Build fast with templates and AI descriptions and photos, inventory and shipping. Sign up for your one euro per month trial and start selling today at shopify.nl. That's shopify.nl. It's time to see what you can accomplish with Shopify by your side. because it was shortly thereafter that i thought it was an anomaly that her car was impounded the the daughter's car okay now i've been in this business since 1982 okay a couple of weekends i have good genes you know my my wife i don't look as old as i really am i'm teasing and i'm still doing this on a daily basis, working with law enforcement agencies around the country. Okay. My question was, okay, if they impounded the daughter's car, there had to be a reason. Okay. Could it be that data point that we're maybe talking about here that doesn't exist? Okay. And they think that is suspicious. I don't know. That's pure speculation on my part, But that would be the type of thing you go, you know what? Mom was last seen in that car. Who was last with her? The family. So they're the last ones that saw her alive. And they're the last ones that dropped her off alive. Okay. You take the Uber driver out of the equation. And who are you left with? I drove mom home. That's what you're left with. Okay. What time? and now you get those data points that line up. And now the next morning they get the phone call. Mom's not here at the church service. Okay, fine. What happened? Well, we went over there. How did you get in? What did you see? What did you find? Well, we didn't use the garage. Okay, why? Or if they said yeah we use the garage Now they have that data point that says a certain time Okay And now push that into what the sheriff said around 11 Okay Well well that like 56 minutes. So you can bet they grilled them for 56, about that 56 minutes. What did you do with your, you know, what were you doing? What was going on? You know, how did that, how did that flush out? But where did it lead? It led to a tow truck. A tow truck showed up and said, you know what, we're going to impound your car. And they impounded it. And then they got a search warrant, allegedly. And the sheriff confirmed that, that the car was towed under warrant and is being processed. Those were his words. Okay, so you go before a judge as, you know, the affiant detective, right, the case agent, say, Your Honor, here's what I have, A, B, C, and D, E, F, and G. And the judge says, okay, you've got probable cause, go ahead and search that vehicle, okay, and hold it, put it into evidence, i.e., bring back the receipt with everything that you found with my name on it, okay, and turn it back into the court. you have 10 days to do that. That's typically the amount of time that the case agent's given. So they searched that car, whatever they did, they filled out an evidence sheet. It's called an inventory receipt. If they took stuff, they had to put it there because the constitution says under the fourth amendment, you got to put it, you got to give them a copy and leave it there you know, for the family or whoever. Now they go back to the judge and they turn it back in and the judge says, okay, you know, are you going to hold the car? Yes, your honor, it's in evidence. Okay, no problem. And when I heard that that car has not been released yet, and I talked, you know, we talked to the PIO directly at the Pima Conor Sheriff's Department, and of course now it's been reported that it's part of the quote, the investigation. Well, you know, for me, I was like, wait a minute, you do not impound family members' cars for no reason and not give them back. You don't just hold it. You don't get to hold it. The laws don't get, the law does not allow you to do that unless there's an evidentiary value. And that's where it becomes a piece of evidence. and they put it on it. They put it in the evidence sheet. Just look at Brian Coburg. Look at his car. His car is listed as a number in the evidence list. Okay. Well, I would suspect that's the same if they haven't released the car because they've had it for almost a month. But could evidence also be considered evidence that clears people? Because the sheriff has been so full-throated about clearing family and spouses and everybody connected to that car. At that point, then the family could hire an attorney and go to the issuing judge, okay, for the search warrant and say, Your Honor, they don't have anything. We want our car back, okay? And the judge is going to say, hey, are you guys done with that car? And if so, I'm going to release it, okay? I.e., you took it under my name because, remember, the judge signed that warrant. I'm going to release it back to the family. No, your honor, we're holding it because of, you know, A, B, C, or D. Okay, thank you very much. Click. Sorry, they're holding the car. And it sits there. And it sits there. Do you know why it sits there? In case it goes, if this thing gets bigger and bigger, hypothetically, who is the first person that's going to ask, do you have the car? The defense team, whoever gets arrested down the line, the very first thing they're going to say is, why did you let the car go? That's like DNA. Why did you destroy all the DNA? What's going on here? We don't have enough now to do our own sample. Okay. It's the same principle. You know, they have whoever is responsible for this crime has a right, you know, to cross their accuser. Well, is it possible, because again, that the sheriff has been full, full throated many times saying that the family members and all their spouses are clear and are victims. Is it possible that the FBI said, well, we'd like to keep that car? Absolutely. Yeah. Somebody wants that car or else, you know what, the sheriff tomorrow can say, we let it go. And then everybody, then we can all sat back and say, okay, The family's got their car back. But you don't get to just hold the vehicle. That's not how it works. Everybody, you know, and this is my, you know, that's been one of my questions has always been, why are they still, why is this car still an impound? Now, Nancy's car, that's a no-brainer. She's the victim. okay and for all we know the suspect may have come across that vehicle at some point and maybe there's fingerprints maybe there's dna anything on that okay but when you talk about the daughter's car and this is my experience it's not yours by the way fyi it's mine okay i'm saying okay wait a minute why did they impound it okay they did it under a search warrant and then what happened after that. Who shows up at the house? The UFED, the Celebrite. Now they download all the devices in the house. Why'd they do that? Nothing to see here in the car. Okay, why do you have all your devices being downloaded? And then what happens after that? The Pima County Sheriff's Office shows up in the middle of the night to take photographs. Where? In the garage. Why? Why are they taking photos in the garage at 10 o'clock at night. You see where each link starts to make sense. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. And now, here we are almost a month later, the sheriff's department's come out through their public information and says, that car is part of the investigation. Still, I keep wondering, and they've done all this investigating, the photos, the searching at the house, all the rest. Could they have come to the determination that we've done everything. We've downloaded their phones and we've looked in their house and we photographed and we've determined these people are not connected in any way. And then they made their announcement, but there's some dangling participle. There's some problem and mistake that just hasn't released their vehicle. Probably not. The moment you come to this realization that there's nothing here, then you have to clear them. And part of that means give back what you took. Okay. Give it back. Okay. You don't get to hold it. Okay. Just look at Kaylee's car in the, in the, in the Idaho four case. Okay. They impounded the car. They processed the car. And then what happened? They gave it back to the family. Said, no, sorry, there's nothing of evidentiary value here. We've done our photographs. We've done our measurements. We've done all of our evidentiary stuff forensically. Here's your car. Okay. But here we are a month later and they're using the verbiage. It's part of the criminal investigation. Well, what part? You know, you've got your, it is confounding. It's confounding. There was one other thing I wanted to ask you about, and it was language was used early on by the sheriff, and he walked it back. He said that Nancy Guthrie was taken from her bed. And then the next day he said, I didn't think you'd take me literally. I meant that figuratively. But then three weeks later, Savannah Guthrie herself put out her appeal to the kidnappers to please let her mother go and said that her mother was taken from her bed in the dark of night. And Savannah's a journalist and knows that words are critical, especially in all of these videos that she puts out. And this makes me wonder if that's entirely possible now, that that is a fact in the case, because it does change a lot of the theories of a burglary gone wrong or Nancy woke up and caught them in the act or whatever it was. If she's literally taken from her bed and she wears powerful hearing aids now, that's also something the New York Times determined from a friend of Nancy's. This really changes the potential of what this crime was. Yes. And so what you do is, if you look at the letter L for an example, okay, this is what we would call the victim risk continuum, okay? Over here, you have environment, situation, and circumstance. On the bottom, you have low, medium, and high risk, okay? So what's the environment? Well, she's in her house, okay? What's the circumstance? She's sleeping, 84 years old, in her bed, potentially at 2 o'clock in the morning, okay? So what's the situation? She disappears out of her house, okay? All of those questions you now ask, is that a low, medium, or high-risk activity, okay? So just change the dynamics, just for the sake of this example. One second. Let's say it's 2 o'clock in the morning and you're at a truck stop. you know, downtown Tucson? What's the environment situation circumstance? That changes everything. Are those low, medium, or high risk activities? Those are high risk activities, okay? But on this side of the pendulum, or the side of the L here, that's all low risk. Nancy Guthrie is a low risk victim. So what does the statistics tell us? The statistics tell us there's a higher probability that the lower the risk, the more probability that she was targeted in relationship to a cross correlation to the suspect, meaning the suspect at some place or another came into her environment. He or she came into her environment. And that's where you go from the pool guy, the gardener, the, you know, and you just go down the list of who worked at the house, who was there, et cetera. And you start weeding out from that way out. Okay. And you go the other way. Okay. That if it's a high risk situation, two o'clock in the morning at the truck stop. Okay. Well, that is a stranger opportunity. Okay. That is a situation that it's a random scenario and typically a crime of opportunity. But because Nancy is so low risk, that's why they keep going back to the house. And they keep going back and back and back. They're looking for the factors that, you know, they're looking for what I'll call the Elizabeth Smart aha moment where her sister goes, I know who it was. It was the painter. Okay. He had been in the house and that's the kind of scenario that has to be looked at and completely eliminated first. And so anybody within that small circle, and then you, you work your way out the larger, you know, the, and you start, you know, your circumference goes further and further away from the house. Okay. And that's where you start looking for things coming towards the house, you know, and that's why video is so important for this investigation. And when they got that video and all of a sudden it's the guy on the porch. Okay. And now is there a question of, is there, did he come even before that? Right. The other picture now, you know, maybe, okay. If you look at the background, it's pitch black that night. But if you look at the background on the night, the video they've obtained, you can clearly see he's backlit by the moon because his shadow is on, you know, the walkway as he's coming in. Okay. So are they two people? Could be as well. Okay. So you want to start your investigation in that lane, but you don't leave the house yet. And that's why it's critical when somebody says, well, you know, this, this is over here, this vehicle's over here. Well, wait a minute. Why? Why? Why is that over there? What's going on over here? And then you get all this other noise, meaning the ransom letters and a payment plan for Miss Nancy. I mean, my heart goes out to Savannah. She is probably just when I saw that video the other day, she's exhausted. She is exhausted. And I've seen so many families in that exact same spot to where you have to sit down and say, look, here's what's going on. I can't tell you everything, right, obviously, because we have to maintain the integrity of the investigation. And when you get on the stand, the last thing I want is somebody to say, yeah, this detective told me all this information. But you can guide the family through the process. And, you know, I don't know if that's happening, to be honest with you. I hope it is. It would be my prayer that it is. But I can't say that for sure. Let me ask you, just as we wrap up, and again, the timing is so key here. We're coming to the one-month mark. In your line of work with the Cold Case Foundation, do you feel any optimism that we're going to solve this case one way or the other? So I'm going to speak from a guy who had a 90% solvability rate in my career. Yes, I have a lot of optimism that there's a lot going on behind the scenes. And as the higher ups, you know, just kind of stay in their ivory towers and let the folks in the field do what they need to do. this case will be solved. I believe that. Now it's going to take a little time and the FBI is going to have to press some resources. But remember, before Brian Koberger was arrested, everybody thought that whole thing was falling apart. And lo and behold, they were sitting up watching him throw his trash away. And so I think there's a lot going on. There's a lot of surveillance probably moving. There are other things happening behind the curtain that we're just not aware of. So yes, I'm very optimistic this case will be resolved. You have just made me feel so much better. Chris McDonough, I'm so glad you took the time to talk to me. Thank you. Thank you so much for the invitation. I won't be the last. Okay. So there you have it, Friday, Feb 27. That is where the case stands. And listen, I cross my fingers every day that there's just going to be, I'm going to wake up and there's some big break in the case or better yet, an arrest or best yet, they find Nancy alive. And to that end, I always ask you, please, for the love of God, if you know anything, if somebody acted strange on February 1st or second or third, or even in the last month, if somebody was behaving differently and they have maybe that same look as that guy on the doorbell cam, please, 1-800-CALL-FBI. 1-800-CALL-FBI. It is so critical. Your little tiny tip that you don't think matters could actually blow the case wide open. Oftentimes, it is a tiny tip that blows a case wide open, and the Guthrie family deserves it. Thank you so much, everyone, for listening. Thank you so much for watching. And remember, the truth isn't just serious. It's drop-dead serious.