Do TV Execs Think You’re Stupid? Hollywood A-listers fight back against Paramount and Big BBC Cuts

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Hello, and welcome to Insiders, a podcast all about the world of television with

0:38

me, Jimmy Melville, and me, Peter Fincham.

0:42

This is the podcast for people who love television and want to know a bit more about what goes on behind the scenes. What's been going on behind the scenes in the world of Fincham?

0:44

Uh, well, what can I say? I went, actually, I went yesterday to Clarkson's Farm to. I go down occasionally because we make Clarkson's Farm.

0:53

You're the executive producer of the show. You're one of the executive producers.

1:03

I think that's exactly right. I am one of those. What can I say?

1:06

What does an executive producer do, Peter?

1:09

Oh, Jimmy, don't. Don't open a can of worms like that. Or I might bounce that one back at you.

1:11

Exactly.

1:16

That could be an entire episode of a podcast. I don't know. There used to be. I can only say if you go back many years, like to, you know, when I was taught, back in the 90s, doing, you know, comedy stuff like, I'm Adam Partridge and. Yeah, I was. I was the executive producer. I was the only executive producer. I was watching a big American drama recently and I thought I would count. And I think I counted 17.

1:17

Yes.

1:42

Different executive producers. So I think we can.

1:43

Well, I think agents of the star. Friends at the star. Spiritual advisor. Yeah, to the star.

1:44

You know, the role has changed. And to misquote a famous line by Billy Wilder, nobody ever said, I must go and see that movie. I hear the executive producers. Good.

1:50

Yeah. No, it's true.

2:01

It's a role that. It says, you know, if you're behind the scenes, you kind of know what the role is. But I don't think it's a role of interest to the audience.

2:03

No. And when you arrive on set, the people say, great to see you. They lie.

2:11

Yeah. No, you. You sort of. You turn up, you sort of creep in at the side. You see people look over their shoulder and turn away quite quickly and you think, who can I go and talk to on this set? And, and usually the talent is the answer. Or if it's a drama, the director,

2:16

the talent or Jeremy Clarkson.

2:34

Well, that's really unfair. So, yeah, of course I taught. I. What can I say? I talked to Jeremy Clarkson. I saw some very cute animals which will feature in the next series.

2:36

Cute animals.

2:45

And I followed around and watched some filming. And is that before he slaughters them? Well, he is a farmer. I mean, to be fair, he's not a farmer.

2:46

He's a television presenter. He doesn't cosplaying as a farmer. I'm pushing back on you here, Peter.

2:56

Well, that may have been true.

3:02

Great program.

3:03

That may have been true five years ago. He knows, let's put it this way, he now knows a lot more about farming than you and I do.

3:04

I know he's been protesting on their

3:09

behalf and he loves it. He loves it. I think one of the reasons, you know, Clarkson's farm, it's an. It's a privilege to be involved in Clarkson's Farm. It's been a huge hit. I, I will say this. Before the first series came out, we really had no idea whether people like it or not. It seemed reasonable to think that Jeremy Clarkson's fans who were, you know, what, what you call petrol heads. Are you a petrol head?

3:11

No, not at all.

3:31

Nor am I. Are people who are interested in cars. It seemed reasonable to believe that they had no interest in farming whatsoever. And it sort of felt that people who, you know, were interested in farming probably didn't like Jeremy Clarkson. So it was one of those shades. It's a perfect example because we're going to come on to talk about this.

3:32

I think politically they're probably in the same gene pool. Well, yeah, you know what I think he's good at.

3:48

But he wasn't associated with the countryside or.

3:52

No, but you know what he's got, he's got buckets of enthusiasm for things. For things that he likes to do, like cars. He's very enthusiastic. I think transmitting enthusiasm to the audience is, you know, that's the, that's, that's what's so brilliant.

3:55

I think honestly, he has brilliant about relationship with the camera and.

4:10

Yeah, you know, he's brilliant.

4:14

He's brilliant. No, the point I'm making is when you come on to talk about commissioners and, and, and, you know, are they. Are they brilliant or are they. Are they not whatever. And commissioning that program was a risk, you know, you couldn't be sure that it was going to succeed. And when it turned out to succeed and it won an audience Very quickly, it changed people's perception of Jeremy Clarkson. It was a remarkable thing, and it's still a remarkable thing. And it's also made a star out of Caleb Cooper. But no, I mean, at that point. Well, let me go back to you. So you're. You're. You run hat trick. So you're executive producer, whatever.

4:16

You. Whatever. You're the big cheese.

4:48

You're Jimmy Melville. You turn up, you think, I ought to go and visit, you know, set where we're filming something. How does that go? What do you do? How do you make yourself useful? Or do you just trip over?

4:50

I make the tea.

5:01

Do you just trip over cables?

5:02

I do.

5:04

Basically find you're in the way.

5:04

I do get things like. Jimmy, could you maybe come and sit over here? Only because you're in shots at the moment.

5:05

Exactly.

5:13

No, people on film sets are very nice.

5:13

Oh, they're charming.

5:15

I mean, film sets, good film sets are. The fuel is respect and politeness and helping each other. So they're enormously helpful. I get fed, I get. I get watered, I get lots of coffee. I get to sit in it. I get. The sound guy comes over and gives me some cans.

5:16

Does the sound guy say, hello, Jimmy? And then do you think. I think the sound guy is called Steve, but he might be called Jeff.

5:32

I always say, oh, gov, great. No, I actually know a lot of the crew because we use. We do use, you know, as one does, you find great crew and you want to hang on to them, so you use them again and again and again. And, you know, we do things like Trigger Point is shot in London, one of the few. You know, it's worth saying that a lot of things now, I think just a good thing are not shot in the southeast. They're shot all over the country. So I do find myself going up to Middlesbrough just on the set of Smoggy Queens, which is our sitcom. And that's great because you are literally up in the northeast and the crew are from the northeast. I know you don't know where the northeast is, Peter. The northeast is way, way up there. Up there. It's just before you get to Edinburgh, which is the only other place, you know, up north. And whilst you've been swanning around on the set of the Farm, I've been doing something much more technical. We've just started an experiment in AI.

5:38

Wow.

6:33

Which is about animation because, you know, a lot of people talk about. You know, they get frightened about AI and I'm obsessed with trying to find out how AI can enhance the Creative process.

6:34

You're right to be, because to be frightened. I could understand why people are frightened of it, but it's a tool just like every other aspect. Making a television program is a tool at our disposal. To use correctly or not and to use brilliantly.

6:44

Exactly.

6:56

In an innovative way. So don't worry, get no pushback from me. I think. Of course.

6:56

Well, also we thought that the area of animation is the safest place to play where you get the writers to write the script, you get the actors to do the voices, you get the animation.

7:01

What does AI do? Does it do. Create the animation?

7:09

Well, we're trying to build an animation model. It's a 12 week project and so we're working with a writer and some actors and an animation studio. They'll do all the drawings and we'll motion capture the actors faces. It's a real process. And then you feed it all into this AI model and you cross your fingers and you hope at the end of it you've, you've got a patented AI model for animation which makes it cheaper and faster so we can do more animation at an affordable cost for broadcasters. But surely it's in this country.

7:11

I mean it's not only going to be animation because I mean to use an example from, from you know, one of our shows, we, the Chelsea Detective, we film each 90 minute episode budget for budget constraint reasons. We have maybe three days filming in, in Chelsea itself. So you pick up the familiar landmarks and because often you know, you're cutting from a wide shot to a house that's actually an Uxbridge or something like all other filming you're doing that kind of thing.

7:43

But one of the things magic now.

8:11

Yeah, well I'm letting, I'm lifting the curtain. One of the things that you'll get in typical episode of, of of Chelsea Detective is a. Is the lead character cycling around Chelsea cycles around. Um, and that's time consuming thing to do. You know, you've got to literally pick up a shot of him, you know, cycling on the embankment and turning up and turning left at the traffic lights and going through passive, you know, row mews houses or whatever, whatever. Nice shots that kind of authenticate Chelsea. Simon might be half a day's filming. No dialogue, no, no drama taking place in a sense, but it's all part of the texture of the show. Well, imagine if you could press a button and AI would have him. You could do that. You probably could do that already. We don't do it. There'll come a time at the point at That's a normal thing to do that people don't think too much about or people you could say don't have strong opinions about. That's going to save you money on the budget that you can plow into something else that. That, you know, involves more actors and there's a dramatic scene that needs to be.

8:13

And you can be using that actor to shoot a scene, of course. So the actor won't mind.

9:12

Exactly. Exactly. Yes.

9:17

It's not as if you're replacing the actor.

9:19

Adrian Scarborough, who plays the lead character, particularly wants to cycle around Chelsea, you know, being filmed. I'm sure he totally understands that's part of the show. But if that could be done, if AI could do that, would that be a big deal? Now, I think there may be people listening to this. If we're lucky, there may be people listening to this who will say, oh, that's the thin end of a wedge. That's bad. But I don't buy that. I think, you know, in a world in which you embrace cg. Well, I mean, cgi, obviously, but the entire nature of filming is artificial and. And sort of fake in a way, and. And. And all film always thinking of ways of shortcuts where they can achieve a lot on a little, you know, use their budget cleverly. So why. Why wouldn't I be part of this? I don't understand.

9:21

Yeah, And I think. Well, I think I'm hopeful that the debate around AI is becoming more nuanced and less black and white, less Luddite. Oh, it's all gonna. It's all gonna turn to shit. Because I think there are ways and means of using AI which, like you say, you know, they'll help the process, they'll help the actors, they'll help the writers, they'll help the broadcasters buy more. Because it's gonna be. I think.

10:11

Well, I'd love to know. I'd love to hear from any. Any listeners who've got, you know, experience of this or strong views about it. You may be listening to this and thinking, oh, hang on a minute. This is dangerous talk. And that's not the attitude we should take. And we should be very careful how we use AI because it's obviously a debate that's going to rumble on, you know, people. But, but.

10:32

But the more we find out about it, the more. Oh, clearly the less frightened we'll. We'll become. Because these kind of embedded, if you like, prejudices are based on, you know, understandable fear based on ignorance of what the actual reality of AI is.

10:50

Yeah. I used to be. Keep straight face. I used to be a member of the musicians union, Jim, in the days when I was a musician.

11:06

What were you? A country member.

11:14

You remember?

11:17

Very good musicians.

11:19

Pretend you don't remember. And I remember once working on a production of. I think it was the Pirates of Penzance, Gilbert and Sullivan. It was a very innovative production. Yes, in the West.

11:20

There were no pirates in the West

11:33

End because they decided in order to appeal to. I mean, bear with me while I tell the story. They did. They decided to appeal to a younger audience to treat the score quite differently and introduce things like synthesizers so that it didn't sound a bit. Something like your mum and dad would go to, like, Victorian kind of thing. It was a hugely successful production, by the way, I remember you used to

11:35

play in these offices, didn't you?

11:58

I know, I know.

11:59

In the West End, you're a West End.

12:00

The musicians union kicked off and said, you cannot replace the brass section with synthesizers. That's putting our. So the net result of this was that the production agreed that during the interval they would hire a sort of small orchestra of musicians to play like a sort of Palm Court Orchestra, you know, while people queued up to get the things. So, question, looking back 30, 40 years, were they doing a favor to musicians by doing that and by fighting for their, you know, rights? Or were they basically holding back an unstoppable tide and actually reducing highly skilled musicians who should have been the orchestra bit, to people who were kind of,

12:02

you know, irritating the audience?

12:45

Just playing. Playing in the background. Yeah, while. While people got their drinks. I can see a parallel with that. In other words, you will always get the people who say, oh, watch out for this. This is going to put people out of work. This is cheating, if you like. But the. The opposite point of view about this production was that it was modernizing it and appealing to an audience who wouldn't otherwise go to see it. And it succeeded in doing it and

12:46

making it more affordable.

13:11

So it's a kind of. Yeah, I think this is like a perennial issue. Yeah, you'll always get people dividing in different ways.

13:13

Any new technology is going to throw up these issues where people get wor. Frightened.

13:19

I've heard color TVs coming in as well.

13:23

Yeah.

13:25

But I like it in black and white. I'm gonna sit.

13:26

I think TV's overrated. I like radio. So we're talking about kind of attitudes that are, I think, probably slightly kind of unfair. Black and white. But what's. What's. What is the Story this week, Peter, it's.

13:29

Sorry, the famous television actor, a great actor and I just ought to say because I want to put a disclaimer here. We're working with Christopher Eccleston at the moment in one of our productions. I met him at the read through of this production. He was absolutely charming and he's an absolutely brilliant, He's a brilliant actor. But he's been bemoaning the fact that too many TV execs patronize viewers and think the audience is stupid. He, he says historically there will be programs that I watched when I was young where I would feel patronized. Love thy neighbor or whatever. I think that's a separate issue. I think we know why he felt patronized by that. But there was a lot where I felt I was being respected. The likes of the plays for today and the Naked Civil Servant, he mentions those. But with the erosion of writers culture to almost writing by committee, I've heard stories about some of the idiotic and sometimes downright hateful assumptions about the audience's intelligence today. A lot of people in television think the audience is stupid. Now I don't, I, I don't, I, I can't say I know Christopher Eccleston. I met him at this.

13:45

It is a view though that a lot of, a lot of creative people have and they project it onto the commissioners saying they don't know what they're talking about and dare you stupid. But you know, like again, it's not, not black and white, is it?

14:48

No, I don't think it is. And I, and I think it's. There will always be people out there who think that commissioners are wrong because commissioners for every show, commissioners say yes to, they say no to half a dozen or whatever. So the half a dozen people they say no to are likely to think the commissioners are wrong. And associated with that is risk averse. And the notion this is the kind of, you know, things ain't what they used to be. There was a time when commissioners took risk, but nowadays they all play safe. I can only say, and it's been 10 years since I've been a commissioner, every time you commission, let's say a drama, you're spending millions of pounds. It feels like a big risk. And when you make that point as a generalization, I mean Christopher Eccleston goes on to do this, he says state of the nation dramas are possible. Look at the success of adolescence at which you point me think, well, hang on a minute. That's evidence of people taking risks, huge risks. I'm not Assuming that the audience is stupid.

14:59

Netflix to do that.

15:54

This is right in front of us and it's done by Netflix, who you could say are surprising people to have to have commissioned a show like, although it was originally, I believe, going to

15:55

be at Apple and baby reindeer. I mean, these are baby reindeer. These are shows which you think, first of all, they're brave commissions. But secondly, Netflix are a, you know, hugely commercial organization and these are, I think they're very artistic endeavors. So I think they do take risks.

16:04

And I can only say if you are on the commissioning side, well, you don't feel you're stupid. You don't try to be stupid. Quite. Quite the opposite. I think what's slightly unusual about this, and I kind of. I. I kind of respect Christopher Eccleston for it, is that he said it. He's gone. I love that he's a working actor

16:21

and now we're talking actor.

16:37

And he's basically going out and biting the hand that feeds him. And that's better than not, you know, you know, not speaking out. If he feels it, he's saying, I don't care. Really agree with him because I think commissioners almost invariably try to do their very best and I absolutely don't think that they think the audience is stupid.

16:38

Well, I. I have to say I'm going to push back on you.

17:00

Okay.

17:02

Slightly. Because I have experiential proof that we had a meeting in 1992. Carlton had just won the franchise.

17:02

Yeah.

17:11

And I was having a meeting with the. Their head of drama. Who shall remain nameless. Tracy Hoffman

17:12

copyright Jimmy Melville for that particular comic form formula. He's made it his trademark. That should be autobiography. Who shall remain nameless.

17:20

Okay. Right. And I was there with Andy Hamilton, you know, Andy Hamilton written drops of a donkey. And he come up with this drama idea, brilliant drama idea, which we eventually did on Channel four called Underworld. And we're pitching it and suddenly she starts pointing upwards to the top of her cupboard. So our gaze is diverted to the top of her cupboard on which is perched, you know those things that were on the end of a pencil, these little troll dolls.

17:30

Yes.

18:00

Hairy like an effulgence of hair coming at the top of the head.

18:01

You could chew when you were.

18:05

Yes. Well, this was a large one.

18:06

Right.

18:09

Draped over the top of her cupboard.

18:09

Okay.

18:11

Staring down at us rather vacantly. And she said, I have to think about my audience.

18:12

Who are trolls?

18:19

Well, you know, kind of brainless twats. And Andy and I. I mean, Andy, just at that moment, he left the Building, really. I mean, spiritually. He'd gone and we ended the meeting and we sold the show to Channel 4. So sometimes there is the odd person. I don't say it's endemic, but like in any industry, you will come up against people sometimes. I remember talking to a writer who had worked on Friends. Greg Malan's a brilliant writer, and he'd work with David Crane on Friends. And I had a meeting with him about something and we were talking about this. This particular head of a studio who's a very nice guy. But, you know, reading scripts is very. As you know, reading scripts is very difficult. It's a skill. And you have to read them a few times to understand what's going on and. And to get a flavor and imagine the characters. And I think sometimes people, because they're busy, they skim read and they read the central bits, all the dialogue. They don't necessarily know who's saying what, but they get a flavor of it very, very quickly. So this guy was having a notes session with this person, and it was about a young boy who'd become a fireman. And actually he didn't want to be a fireman, but he'd been saved as a child by a fireman and had been interviewed by local tv. And the fireman was holding him in his arms. And the TV anchor said, what do you want to be when you grow up? And he said, a fireman.

18:20

He felt basically bound by the.

19:41

So he's in a small. He's in a little village where he's growing up and they buy him fireman's outfits and stuff. So Peter Roth said, I just didn't get. I didn't get the point that he kind of wanted to be a fireman. Maybe he, you know, I think he should say that. And Greg said, well, he does say it on page seven and page 10. And then Greg, cause he's quite being sarcastic, said, maybe he should say it again. And this guy said, yeah, I think that'd be a good idea if you could say it again. So those conversations go on all the time. Right.

19:42

I. I remember hating going into a meeting when I hadn't. For whatever reasons.

20:13

A diary schedule when you're occasioning.

20:19

Yeah. If you hadn't read a script properly.

20:21

Oh, yeah.

20:23

Because to be found out, like, it's been so embarrassing. But. But let's go back to this whole thing of. Of, you know, do people think audience is stupid? I don't think people think the audience is stupid per minute. You have. You've got a Commission for, for a channel and for an audience that, you know, are out there. Yeah, I, I, I think when you're commissioning for a channel, running a channel, it, some people make the mistake of thinking they know the audience better than the people who are making the programs. You know, they're like the guardians of the audience. I remember a guy who's running Radio 4 and I was making a comedy program for. And he shall remain nameless because I can't remember his name rather, because I'm going to leave a pause and then say his name.

20:23

Okay, okay, that's, yeah, exactly.

21:07

I don't want to tread on your, on your toes there, Jim. And I remember him sort of talking about the Radio 4 audience as if he'd been out, you know, as if he personally knew all of them and knew their tastes and so on. And I think you can overdo that. I mean, that's another version of your drama commissioner at Charlton Carlton, rather. Charlton. I'm thinking that's only my football team at Carlton.

21:09

That's where she's working now, actually. She's head of drama at Charlton.

21:30

Goes for Charlton. She hasn't had a lot to do the last 30 years. And the funny troll thing on the, on the thing. So, yeah, it's, it's a difficult issue this. But let's not forget you, you've made that, rightly made the point that reading a script is a skill.

21:35

Yeah.

21:49

You know, discussing creative work is also a skill. It's not an easy thing to do. And people who know how to do it well and know how to kind of deliver some notes without getting the writer to want to, you know, walk out of the room. It would be nice to say everybody's like that, but actually you really respect the people who are like that who can make a writer feel positive about what's good and feel valued and respected and yet maybe land a couple of points.

21:49

Oh, there's no question that we've had shows that have had some brilliant input from our commissioning editors. I mean, no, no question about that. I mean, remember when we did Episodes, which was the co production with Showtime and the bb, the commissioning editor on the Showtime and was a man called Gary Levine who gave some notes that saved the show in development.

22:24

Yeah.

22:45

I mean, there's no question that had we not listened to him and it's a piece of casting, for example, he made a very brave decision which resulted in the show, you know, being. Yeah, yeah, being, being a really good show. So I like, I say these statements. I'm glad he Said it because it.

22:45

I'm glad he said it because I don't agree with him, but I respect his right to say it. And.

23:00

And also he's standing up for the creative spirit, which is a good thing. Cause he's. He's. He is an artist. He's a very, very good actor. But I think he's probably listened to some anecdotes, some horror stories from, you know, from writers and things which have formed his view, but it's not the whole picture.

23:05

Well, we've got another story about actors, and I don't know what I think about this one. This is in America. Oh, yes. And, you know, we've talked quite a few times on the podcast about the Paramount takeover of Warner Brothers. We know that, you know, it was fought for a while by netfl. Were Netflix going to win and. But Paramount won and they're taking over Warner Brothers. So more than a thousand US Producers, writers and actors have signed an open letter.

23:22

Yeah.

23:47

Opposing the acquisition. So, I mean, really big names, you know, JJ Abrams, David Fincher, Ben Stiller, Brian Cranston, just among those who've signed a letter organized by various unions. So it's all the unions, including the Writers Guild of America. And they have said, we are deeply concerned by indications of support for this merger that prioritizes the interests of a small group of powerful stakeholders over the broader public good. The integrity, independence, and diversity of our industry would be grievously compromised.

23:48

Wow.

24:19

Well, that's. I mean, I just want to pick out a bit of that sentence that prioritize the interests of a small group of powerful stakeholders over the broader public good. When has Hollywood not been like that? But also interesting in that the phrase the broader public good, we're very used in the UK to the phrase public service, public service television, you know, the BBC being the manifestation of it. But that's. That's. That's a. Less. You don't hear that in America so much, do you? It's a commercial world. It always has been.

24:20

I think what didn't amuse me, but what. What I also felt was it's a little bit of virtue signaling this kind of letter. I mean, I love actors, but I like them when they're acting. I like footballers. I like them when they're playing football. It's. It's when you get sidetracked into thinking, you know, that you're some kind of.

24:51

I mean, to be fair, this is. Producers, writers and actors. This is. This is all the right leading lights of the creation.

25:13

I don't Disagree with them. I think. I think they have a point. I don't think it's one. It's going to do it. It's going to make any difference at all. I think it's them saying, we don't agree in public. Which is good for them to say that because they want to be seen not to be part of it. But the truth is that it's pointless. I mean, writing these kind of letters, does it do any good?

25:21

So when they say the integrity, independence and diversity of our industry would be grievously compromised, I don't pick out the word independence there. Independence from what? Why is it less independent? It's just got different ownership.

25:41

Well, they're worried, aren't they?

25:52

Well, in what sense was Warner Brothers independent before it was bought by Marathon?

25:53

No, and also they, you know, the crazy community have had grievances with studios, as you say, for decades in terms of, you know, working conditions, pay, all the. All the usual things that the unions quite rightly, kind of push back on when they're. When they're, you know, in. In the face of these huge, powerful studios. I kind of think that. That this is about free speech. I think they're worried that if the Ellisons become that powerful and they are in the pockets of Donald Trump, what does that mean for free speech? I told you, I went to the WGA Awards a few weeks ago in New York, and the theme of every speech and there were funny speeches cause their writers getting awards was, you know, is free speech now in danger? Is the First Amendment under threat in Trump's America? So I see this statement as being part of that.

25:58

So here in the uk, and this is. This is interesting as well, the cma, the Competition Markets Authority.

26:54

Yes.

26:58

Has invited comment on the deal. I mean, why. Why in the uk? This has nothing to do with us. But anyway, they said they are seeking views on the anticipated acquisition and inviting interested parties to submit to the CMA any initial views on the impact that the transaction could have on the competition in the uk. Oh, I see. On competition in the uk. I can't help feeling there. This is a little bit like our Navy at the moment. What does Trump say? Our aircraft carriers are basically toys. Yeah. This is. This is big. Boys and girls in America are going to decide this. And I don't think, good luck to the cma. But I don't. I mean, I don't think they're gonna.

26:59

No.

27:40

Who influence it.

27:40

Yeah. Who gives a toss about what they think?

27:41

I'll tell you another thing that interests me when this sort of thing happens because it's a thousand US Producers, writers and actors doing this, I'd be interested to know who said, no, I'm not putting my name on the letter. And do they then John Voight for a start.

27:44

Because he's.

27:59

Is that right?

28:01

Well, he's a big friend.

28:01

Oh yeah, he is. Yeah.

28:02

Donald Trump.

28:03

But can you put, not put your name on a letter like this without people assuming you're a Trump supporter? In other words, does it feel like this is group think this is. There's a. There's a kind of moral.

28:04

You know, where I go to peer pressure is that how would I feel if I hadn't been asked?

28:15

True.

28:20

I'm not in the top thousand.

28:21

You were number one. Thousand and one.

28:22

You've got to cut off somewhere, Jimmy. I'm sorry.

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30:34

so we can't really go a week without talking about the BBC.

30:44

No, but they've given us something to talk about.

30:48

They have actually done something this.

30:50

The interim dg, Rodri Talfan Davis, you might think he's the interim DJ for all the six weeks. You might think he would just sort of sit kind of keeping. Keeping things warm.

30:52

He's got busy.

31:03

He's got busy and he's announced that. I mean, this is a big announcement. This is a serious issue. As many as 2, 000 jobs could go in their biggest round of jobs cut for 15 years.

31:04

Yeah, I guess he, he might be amongst them if he's only an interim dg.

31:15

But we've sat here and I've said this before that the BBC, when we had Greg Dyke on the show a couple of weeks ago, we talked about the numbers of people who work at BBC and how hard it is to get it down. And this is 21,508 staff employees of the BBC last year. So 2,000 jobs is very significant.

31:20

10%.

31:40

It's 10%. And there's talk they're going to open a voluntary redundancy scheme to avoid compulsory layoffs. But that's an ambitious number for a voluntary redundancy scheme. What do we think about this? Is this. Should we be applauding the BBC because, you know, the interim DG has got to do some, you know, he's doing. He's kind of. It feels a little bit like cleaning the flat before the cleaning lady turns up. You know, he's kind of doing what might become Matt Britton's job for him. By announcing this, do we think that's a good thing or are we thinking this is. This is a worrying thing for the BBC? It's obviously a very worrying thing if you're one of those 2,000 people.

31:40

Well, I think it is a tragedy when you, you know, when people lose their jobs. That's a, that's, you know, it's a meaningful event in for the 2,000 people. Yeah, it's. It's a bad thing. It's in. But it's an inevitable thing because across the industry now, you know, we're seeing this happen. And I think what is worrying is there's going to be a hiring freeze. I think they're going to. They say the bees said it will be recruiting only for essential roles with robust approvals. I think young people coming into the industry they might even apply. Very, very difficult. I think that's the problem is that. That we want bright young people to come into the industry thinking they've got a future. But when you.

32:20

And they're. They're the leaders of tomorrow and when you stuff like this, BBC trainees, which neither of you nor I were. I don't think we've got a job as BBC trainees, but you know, they've gone on to be director generals and things like that. Interestingly, in the all staff call about this, Roger Telford Davis said, we have a funding model at the moment that is unsustainable and is reaching the end of its sell by day. That's a very unequivocal statement from the Director General of the BBC, even if he's only.

32:57

That's quite a commercial. You'd expect that from a CEO of a commercial organization.

33:25

Exactly. Basically saying the license fee is unsustainable.

33:28

Do you think they're getting themselves appropriately dressed to talk to the government?

33:32

Well, I mean, of course they are, of course they are. But as we've discussed before, the easy bit of the funding issue is to say that the current system is unsustainable or anachronistic. The difficult bit is how to replace it. So you, you know, this won't be the interim DG's concern for very long, but boy, this is. This is top of matt. Britain's in. In box, isn't it?

33:36

Yeah, because, I mean, but I suppose the. We are trimming our.

34:01

Yeah, it's a good message.

34:08

Yeah, it's a good message.

34:09

Yeah. We're getting a house in order.

34:10

And there are certain other things they have to do before charter renewal. And one of them occurred to me was that Tony hall, the previous DG, that was there when the charter was renewed 10 years ago, I think. Was it 10 years ago they instituted this new commercial arm of BBC called BBC Studios, which was allowed to produce for anybody, not just the BBC. So the BBC production base was turned into this supplier of global ip. And the quid pro quo for that was that they would, over the 10 years of its charter, they would release to the open market all 100% of it's called relevant programming. Now, they haven't done that yet. And I'm just wondering, you know, at what stage will they put big shows? I mean, they put, you know, Songs of Praise. I mean, we've actually took the Proms. We've also do Mastermind, so we won those. But 74% of these shows that have been put up to tender have been then won back.

34:12

But how long are they won back for?

35:13

How long's your contract for the promise? It's renewed every two years.

35:15

Every two years.

35:19

And then you have.

35:20

You got to keep performing and you

35:21

have to meet the editorial standards and I mean the problems, you know, which is produced by. By a company that we have a stake in called Livewire, run by Guy Freeman that we talked about before, you know, he's. He won a BAFTA for it last year. So these are very good producers, but

35:22

these also, they're linked to these things because if you're making 2,000 redundancies and a significant number of those come on the production side, the BBC rather than the commissioning side, then you are less able to go on producing those things and more likely to lose the tenders when they go out.

35:37

Well, it depends where. We talked about events last week, we talked about the events department and David Dimbleby banging on about how it was the end of the BBC's ability to produce these big events. And we poured cold water on that statement because again, it was a kind of a statement that came from someone who didn't know what the current state of affairs was inside the BBC studios. You do have departments, but they hire in brilliant freelancers whenever they get a production. But the truth is that all the big events have always gone to BBC studios, so perhaps that they'll start farming those events out. That when the King has his 75th birthday and they do a big party in the park, it will be.

35:54

Fancy doing that. Do you. You.

36:35

Yeah, I think I.

36:38

You have a cr.

36:39

Yeah, I've got to go because I.

36:40

I think I see a rise to Jimmy Mobile.

36:41

I know I'm a Republican, so I. We. We do a very.

36:44

We do you do a kind of alternative version of it.

36:48

There'd be hidden messages,

36:50

but I mean. So basically the BBC have got to do this. They're getting their house in order in as much as it's, you know, people's jobs going who may work at the BBC for a very long time. That's. That's, that's a sad thing and, and a sad sign of the time. But, but you. There are other ways of saving. Saving money. I notice in, in what was said in this all staff call, it was said they were implementing immediate cost control measures in areas including travel and consultancy spend and costs associated with awards and events. So let's just unpack that for a minute. So travel. When I was controlling BBC1, I kind of sort of had had a driver and a car a bit on standby. A little bit like you, Jim, but I know that you've, you've moved on from that now. Yeah, no, I know those are distant days. Yeah. So. So, you know, I'm pretty sure in the modern world, however seen you are on the BBC, you get on the central line, as it were, and you, you say so I don't think travels bad now. Consultancy spend interests me.

36:54

Yeah.

37:53

Because I've had experience of this and. And you may not have done because it's, it's a big organization thing. When I was at itv, ITV seemed to me to be addicted to consultants. You know, they wanted to do a review of staff numbers because they wanted to make 10 cut of staff numbers they got in some outfit like bcg, the Boston Consulting Group, paid them a fortune to tell them exactly what they were expecting to hear, which is why didn't you reduce your staff numbers? And I thought, you know, this is,

37:53

this is money for our rope.

38:27

Money for our rope, for the consultants.

38:28

Yeah.

38:30

I ended up with, if I'm honest, zero respect for them. They came in, spent a lot of time which they charged a lot of money for finding out about the business. But we knew about the business, it was our business. Then they went away and came back and told us what we ought to have worked out anyway as responsible managers of the business.

38:30

Yeah.

38:49

And charged us a lot of money for that.

38:49

They said that's nice work if you can get it.

38:51

Nice work if you can get it. So I'm totally in favor of the BBC cutting down on consultancy spent. It's mostly money for our rope.

38:53

And I spoke once to a business consultant, he had a professorship at the London School of Business. He said, yes. He said I'm the kind of guy who sees a business working in practice and says, ah yes, but does it work in theory?

39:00

Oh God. Oh Jesus.

39:12

But you know, it's interesting the, the other piece of news from the BBC this week, does it kind of speaks to what we've just been talking about, you know that the, that the linear. That the kind of old legacy broadcasters are having to cut their cloth because, you know, the new world has arrived and the BBC is making its first inroads. It's decided that it's just announced this week that BBC YouTube a new BBC YouTube offering called Deepwatch. And Deepwatch will be the name of a anthology series of 20 standalone YouTube documentaries to be made.

39:14

Is this aimed at you and me, Jim?

39:54

No, it's aimed at 16 to 24

39:55

year olds across the UK, just outside that demographic.

39:57

It's telling the stories of what it's like to be that age group in Britain. Their struggles, their challenges, their joys, their despair, all the. All it. But, but you know, it's dipping its toe into the world of producing stuff specifically for YouTube which they've announced. You know, they. They've got head of YouTube now and they're going to launch children's channel. So it seems.

40:01

And there's a tender process is they're

40:23

going into children's and to documentaries first and not comedy, which is a strange thing because I thought comedy on YouTube does play rather well, but maybe that's for later down the road. And yes, there's a BBC tender probe. The BBC tender process. And having been through a few of them, good luck with that.

40:25

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Does that made your feelings clear?

40:41

Yeah.

40:44

I don't know why you're moaning, Jim, about the BBC tender presses when you actually have won two very significant pieces of business. Continue to produce them and when you win, you're gonna be fine to do that.

40:45

I'm not complaining about winning.

40:55

Very ungrateful.

40:56

But I am. Why I was born. I was born ungrateful. But the. But the truth is that it's the process through which you have to go through to get them.

40:57

Yeah, no, I can see.

41:04

Seems to be torturous and a little bit.

41:05

But I hate filling.

41:07

Informed a little bit job creation.

41:08

I think that's why I've never tried to get one. No, you mean the filling in forms, is that what you mean?

41:10

Well, yeah, it's the. It's the. And, yeah. And then the kind of, you know, the interrogations and stuff. Yeah, it's fine, it's fine. I'm. You're right, you're right to pull me up on it. I'm moaning and I shouldn't moan. I should be eternally grateful to the BBC, which of course I am.

41:15

So before, before we end, we. We just had a bit of news in. It's literally, literally in real time on our phones. Ian Katz calls time on Channel 4. Tenure. He's going to leave Horse Ferry Road in October after close to nine years. Gosh. That shows how fast time he. He's stepping down October after seeing out the delivery of the 2026 slate he joined under previous chief executive Alex Mahon. It makes him the longest serving programming boss in the broadcaster's history. So gosh, I mean this isn't a huge surprise.

41:29

No, I think it's probably the right thing for him to.

42:02

New chief executive comes in. Priya Dogra. She's gonna want to make her own appointment and you know, give us a. What, what are your thoughts?

42:04

Well, yeah, I mean, I, I had lunch with Ian before Christmas and you know, he was in place still commissioning things and said he was going about his business. But clearly, you know, he's a bright, bright chap and he could see that the, the winds of change were about to blow through Channel 4's corridors. So. Yeah, it's just, it's one of those things that happens in our business is that she's come in and she'll want her team and I think eight years in that job is probably long enough as well.

42:15

Well, actually, we have talked about this before. I'm pretty sure it's getting longer and longer. These. I think I'm the second longest running director of television at itv. I did eight years and then we

42:41

all thought that was too long. And Kevin Liger's seven years too long. Your tenure.

42:53

Kevin Liger has now done like 10 years.

42:58

Yes.

43:01

The doors of. Well, you'd like anybody who's got money to commission your programs.

43:02

They're my favorite people.

43:07

Quite soon we're going to be wondering who's going to be the next head of programs at Channel 4.

43:09

That's interesting.

43:13

It doesn't take long before, even though I know this from personal experience, even before you pack your bags and gone out the door, there's a little article on broadcast or deadline saying runners and riders.

43:13

Yeah.

43:25

And the attention switches to the person coming in and fades on the person going home. Out.

43:25

Well, I wonder who it will be.

43:31

It'll have that experience. He'll be, he'll be. On the one hand, you're, you're kind of laying down a burden because it's ahead. You know, they're very demanding jobs. You're constantly, you know, juggling all sorts of different things and sorts of decisions.

43:33

Yeah. Lunch with this or tea with him.

43:45

Lunch with Jimmy Melville. Things like that clutter up your diary.

43:47

Yeah.

43:50

So in a way you're relieved to lay down that burden and then you sort of wake up two days later and realize that all those people who answered your phone in five minutes take a bit longer to answer your phone.

43:51

Yeah, it's quite.

44:04

But that's quite cold out there in the sad world of being an X Channel controller. He's got that to look forward to.

44:05

Yeah. Well, you can brief him on that.

44:10

Oh, well, it's now time you've been an extra.

44:12

An extra controller twice.

44:14

Twice.

44:16

Yeah.

44:17

I've still lived to tell the tale, but we're seeing each other later today, aren't we, Jim? Come on, we could share this with the listeners. Oh, yes, and give our old friend a plug for his play.

44:17

And we've got a great day. We're going to see Griffries Jones starring in I'm Sorry, Prime Minister, which is written by Jonathan Lynn, who created with Tony J. Yes Minister and yes Prime Minister. And this is an ex Prime Minister who's now a master of an Oxford college.

44:25

You know more about it than I do in his.

44:44

In his dotage.

44:46

Yes.

44:47

And we're going to a mat.

44:47

We're going to a matinee and then we're going for it where you try

44:49

and listen to the dialogue over the whistle of hearing aids.

44:52

I know I've got mine in. We should report back on that next week. So I'll see you a bit later, Jim. Okay, that's all for this week. Thank you very much for listening. If there are any questions about the world of television, you always want to ask, send them our way. We'd love to hear from you.

44:56

You can send us an email or get in touch via our socials. All the info is in the description.

45:09

Even better yet, why not subscribe to our YouTube channel?

45:14

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45:17

Hello. Hello, it's Brooke Devard from Naked Beauty. Join me each week for unfiltered discussion about beauty trends, self care, journeys, wellness tips and the products we absolutely love and cannot get enough of. If you are a skincare obsessive and you spend 20 plus minutes on your skincare routine, this podcast is for you. Or if you're a newbie at the beginning of your skincare journey, you'll love this podcast as well. Because we go so much deeper than beauty. I talk to incredible and inspiring people from across industries about their relationship with beauty. You'll also hear from skincare experts. We break down lots of myths in the beauty industry. If this sounds like your thing, search for naked beauty on your podcast app and listen along. I hope you'll join us.

45:31