Bertie Gregory: Saving the Animals (Even the Ones That Are A**holes)

in uh in history there have been these mass extinction events and we're now in one so when the rate of extinction goes up incredibly high there's sort of this big purge and i think with with humans um we often talk about wanting to save the world when actually in the long term world the planet world is fine it's gonna be just fine it's just whether or not we yeah exist or whether we exist on a place that's actually you know nice to be we're not just sort of surviving i think that's where the groups that do these things have done really well they have sort of participated in making us think of it as save the world which then arrogantly puts us at the center of it again in the wrong way you know it's like like oh do you want to save the world and it's like all right world if you need me i'll save you and it's like no no no no no no my friend no yes do you want to be alive this is what now with trevor noah oh man all right so now i can ask you the question so where where are you coming from Mexico Alright What were you doing in Mexico? So I was filming for a new project for Disney Plus Which that one is under NDA So I won't be allowed to talk about that one No, that one's a secret About cartels You have the most like wholesome NDAs of anybody I know by the way Like other people who have NDAs is like Yeah, no, the drug cartel Yeah, the settlement, this whole thing And then with Bertie it's like I have an NDA Oh, why Bertie? It involves penguins It involves penguins Penguin secrets Yeah, we can't give away the penguin secrets. And whales and cheetahs and just cute little animals. And I can't tell you their stories. So, first of all, welcome. Thank you. Thank you so much for coming. Just to give people a bit of context, even Eugene, everyone. Like, Bertie is one of my favorite explorers in the world. You've been excited the whole day? I genuinely have. I've been excited for a long time. because when I first met Bertie, I met him at like a conference type thing, and it was a room full of CEOs, you know? These are cold, heartless human beings. Oh, hold on there, Luigi. That was nice. That was very nice. Yeah, it was cold. Like, I'm talking about like cold calculated. Show me the KPIs and the, you know what I mean, and the return on investment, ROIs. Lots of TLIs flying around. All of those things All of those things And then Bertie steps up on stage And he goes I'm going to play you a little video And all the other videos have been like Growth, numbers, expansion And then Bertie comes up and he's like Allow me to play your video And it's like It's like animals And you see people in the room Start going onto their phones to check the stock market real quick And then 10 seconds in Everyone's phones go down And I think the first one you played for us Might have been The Whales Or it might Like the first one I saw of yours And let me tell you something I cannot tell you That I've had more experiences Where I've felt like I've been transported To a completely different world Than when I've watched The films that this man makes Even snippets of them transform you to another world, make you think of animals completely differently? In fact, I would, how would you- But the best thing is, it is our world. And I think that's the coolest thing is that- Maybe that's why you make it so, how would you describe what you do? Like, do you think of yourself an explorer, documentarian? What would you say you do? I think my job is to get people excited about the natural world and aware of some of the challenges it faces. And I think most importantly, understand that looking after wildlife isn't just something that's like a nice thing to do because like penguins are cute. Yeah. We need it for so many things we rely on. And if nature is not healthy, we're not healthy. So I guess trying to dispel the myth that, yeah, sort of, you know, looking after nature is at odds with enterprise and all the things that you're listening. The money side of things. So, okay, do me a favor. Actually, play me any, like an old video. Anything that you have Just like Well let's We started with the whales Yeah Oh let me find the whales Yeah So like you know how like The best video on your phone Is probably Hey hey Hey my man He don't know my life Two words Okay Tucked in Thine cloaca All right, all right. So what is this? Animal reproductive systems really trick. What is this? Okay, so what you're looking at here, this is a gathering of whales in Antarctica. What was the occasion? Each one of the, a big party. Each one of those whales is 25 meters long. So what's that? We use meters. Yeah, meters. Just let everyone else figure it out for themselves. Very long. about double the length of a greyhound bus that's a nice yeah yeah yeah so every time you see this little fountain the blowhole so yeah each one yeah these are fin whales they're the second largest whale in the world and we went down to antarctica spent a lot of time rolling around on a boat feeling very sick uh but we ultimately managed to film the largest gathering of fin whales ever recorded there were 300 of them together and um this was a not only an amazing thing to witness because it's just loads of massive whales. But it's one of the kind of greatest conservation success stories of our time because these whales were hunted to the brink of extinction during the whaling era. And now they're making this incredible comeback. And yeah, that's exciting. Not just because, yeah, like penguins are cute. Whales are awesome. But because of so many other reasons, you know, the whales in Antarctica, that's not just a great thing. They're coming back for Antarctica, but, you know, new science is telling us that whales are really good at capturing carbon through a couple of different processes. And so if we want to fight climate change, save the world, yes, we should plant loads of trees because they're good at capturing carbon, but we also need to help the whales come back. Wait, wait, wait. I need you to explain this. Whales capture carbon? Right. So a couple of different processes. The first reason that whales are really good at capturing carbon is because they go around their whole life eating food, eating carbon essentially, and then when they die, they sink to the bottom of the ocean and some of them get eaten at the surface, but a lot of their bodies, it traps that carbon deep down in the bottom of the ocean. So that's one way. I've never thought of where whales die. Right. Yeah, they sink. Whale fall. No, but I never thought of, I don't know why I never thought of like where... Where they go. Whales... Yeah. You've probably never seen a full episode of my 600 pound life, no? I'm so sorry. All right, you're good. Should we just move on? I'm so... So, but the second process, which is much more interesting is this thing called the whale pump. Yes. Okay. Let me try and break. Okay, wait. Activate worst part of Eugene's brain. Activate worst part of Eugene's brain. That has nothing to do with reproduction. Okay. Okay. So in the ocean. Yeah. In the deep, you have lots of cold, nutrient-rich water. Okay. There's a lot of nutrients in the deep. Okay. Got it. Part of the problem is that at the surface, the place where the light hits, it's called the photic zone. So the light hits lots of microscopic plants in the water column near the surface. The light's hitting them, but they lack some really important nutrients in order to grow. Okay. So they have light from the sun, but they need these key nutrients. So what the whales do is that they eat at depth and then they have to come up to the surface to breathe. Right. And when they're at the surface, they can't poop when they're under pressure at depth. They have to come up to the surface and that's where they poop. So they have been feeding in the deep, eating all those key nutrients that is missing in the surface. They then swim to the surface, breathe, take a big poop, and they fertilize that surface layer. So it kicks off the food chain. The photon zone. In the phoenix zone, exactly. So actually you'd think, okay, if the whales come back, they're going to eat all of the krill. but actually it's kind of the opposite. It's like the krill. It's like this paradox in that the more whales there are, the more krill that they eat, the more they're coming up to the surface and fertilizing the surface there, that creates more phytoplankton, the little microscopic plants. The krill eat the phytoplankton. So there's more whales and it just goes on and on and on. So it's this amazing runaway train. It's amazing. And I could have explained that in much fewer words and much better, but you get the idea. No, you see it can't be better. So this is what I think makes it exciting is, one, you're like really passionate about it. But two, you connect the dots between these worlds that don't seem connected in any way, shape, or form. Like, for instance, the significance of the whales is something that I think most people miss out on. The significance of most animals, to be honest with you. You know what I mean? A lot of the nature documentaries that I watched as a kid, they were just about an animal in isolation in a way. this lion is trying to hunt and it's going to go and get this zebra. That's the story. In a faraway place, the end. Yeah, that was it. That was it. For me, it wasn't a faraway place. It was like next door. But it's true though. It's like, yeah, this is what they're doing. It's true. He grew up in the middle of the Serengeti. No, hey, you know what I'm talking about? How far were lions from you? Very close. Exactly. So I'm not saying like next door. Relatively speaking. It wasn't like another world for us. It was like, yeah, oh, that's what's happening there. but what your work does is it tells that story, but then it goes into the deeper layers that connect us to these animals and then how the environment is connected to them and how the environment connects to us and then how it plays back. Like why was it significant that those 300 whales were meeting and you were capturing that? What was the significance of that encounter? I think the key thing was that, you know, during the whaling era, whales, as I said, were hunted to the brink of extinction. And I remember I visited this island in the South Atlantic called South Georgia. And that was sort of the epicenter for Southern Ocean whaling. So that was where a lot of the whaling ships were based. And that's where they brought a lot of the whales they hunted in Antarctica back to to process the blubber and all that stuff. And I remember reading the logs from the whalers when they were there. From the ships. Exactly. And they would talk about there being so many whales in these bays that they were hunting in that you could have walked across their backs. just like mind-boggling numbers of whales. And that got me thinking, I found that really depressing and like, oh, I'll like, that's all gone. Like, I'll never get to see that. But then however many decades on, you know, the world came together and protected whales in the 70s. And now, you know, what's that? 50, 60 years on from that ban, the whales are starting to make a comeback. And of course, they're not close, even close to what their original numbers were. But the idea that you can now go to Antarctica and see these biblically large gatherings of whales. I go around the world, I realize I'm super fortunate to see animals doing amazing things, but everywhere I go, the guide, the scientist, the local person, they always say, what you've seen on this expedition you've just done is amazing, but you should have seen how much more amazing it was 10, 20, 30 years ago. That's sad. But in Antarctica with the whales, seeing that gathering of 300 whales, like no one's seen that for over a hundred years like it hasn't been that good for more than a hundred years and isn't that so cool like the world is so full of doom and gloom that we can get it right like and when we do wildlife comes back on this like mind-boggling scale and not only is it cool to look at but it helps us as humans so wait is that why whales turned into assholes break that down for me so i mean like you know we've been reading all these stories and seen these things of i think it's the orcas the killer whales yeah just like going by the way why are they called killer whales is because it's not because they kill us right i i think it's actually from the the the translation it's sort of been mistranslated it's actually whale killers so some killer whales hunt whales oh and so they're the whale damn so they're not killer where they are the killers of whales but i mean they're killing technically but everything is killing but Technically. Dolphins don't. They kill fish. What do you mean? They don't kill smiles. I'm glad you're here. We're going to have every argument Eugene and I have about animals. You're going to settle it today. But the other thing is. Shave chimpanzees. We'll save that for later. And the killer whales are actually the largest dolphin. Yes. They're a big dolphin. Well, they are toothed whale. The odontocetes is the Latin fancy word. Everything I believed about anything is just going out the window here. But anyway, coming back to your question. What I'm saying is like, do we know why they're attacking boats and why this is happening around the world? Yeah, so there's a couple of different theories. The first thing I'd say that it's not happening around the world. It's happening in one place. It's one pod. I would say... So it's a gang. Yeah, it's one family. Oh, okay. Boat killers. So there's a couple of different theories. The first thing to say is if you actually watch most of the videos, these killer whales are just swimming up to the boats and being very curious and sort of bumping them. And it's not attacking. They're just being curious. However There are some That they're actually Sinking the boats By you know Headbutting them Yeah I mean they are I guess Now Do we know enough About the whales To know if Like to your point Attacking not Could they be like Playing a prank on us Okay so Couple theories One that is It's quite interesting Is that The kill whales there Some of them hunt Bluefin tuna Yeah And the They have basically Learned that When they hear Certain boat noises Of fishing boats They're like Ooh dinner bell Why would I chase one of the fastest fish in the sea when some dude over there has just caught a bunch on a hook? No ways. Take out, you know, easy meal. So they came over and the fishermen in the past, I'm sure it still goes on, shoot at them. And so you could see how the steps would create whereby, okay, you know, one gets shot by, shot in the face. It gets angry. It rams a boat. It sinks and goes, huh, this is a thing you can do. They're highly intelligent creatures. They're also highly intelligent. So it could be that that's not true. And actually, it's just that one time they, you know, accidentally bumped a boat and it sank and they went, well, that was entertaining. So let's do that some more. I think the idea that it's like they're like killer whales trying to attack and kill people is just ridiculous. So this brings up another question that I've always had, and that is, can animals be assholes? Like when you go And you track animals And you watch them Are animals just being animals Or do you see some animals Where you're like Oh no that one is being an asshole I mean I guess Yeah I guess so Skunk is an asshole Skunk is an asshole Why would you say that Oh they're just defending themselves From From people With their Big things with yeah thank you I'll tell you a story and maybe you can demystify this as well so one of the stories where I started thinking there's a possibility that animals could be assholes was there was a couple that was hiking in some way I think in the US it was like you know off on one of those mountain trails blah blah blah and they got attacked by a bear right so they came across a bear and then you know it was that whole thing like Play dead Whatever So they like Tried to play dead Then the bear was like It never worked in the revenants Yeah Then the bear was like Not cool guys Not cool And then The bear started like Mauling them Whatever So they tell the story So the husband was like Alright Go Tell the wife Like run run run I'll fight the bear Yeah And then yeah And then the wife ran Then the husband was like Then you can't fight a bear Obviously You can just like Distract I guess whatever Entertain it You can entertain it You can receive and entertain yes you can receive the punishment and you can entertain the bear and this happens at some point he's basically knocked unconscious the bear stops and is like wait where did that lady go then the bear runs off attacks the woman mauls her mauls her mauls her then when she's also like sort of like passed out then goes back to the guy then like goes back and forth and then luckily they survived but you know like the bear like mauled them but I remember going like that bear might be an asshole. Or is there something we miss? No, let's break that one down. So when you see in the news, a wild animal has attacked a human. Yeah. The vast, vast majority of the time, it is because the human has done something wrong. So they have got in between a mother and its cubs. They have backed an animal into a corner. They have misread an animal's body language. They have done the wrong thing. So the first thing I'd say is, it's very easy to kind of pin it on the animal and go, oh, the animal attacked the human. Let's just clarify. There are a very small number of cases whereby it was wrong place, wrong time. And what I would say to sort of, I guess, humor your thing of are some animals assholes. Animals have personalities and some are incredibly intelligent and they do like have bad days. Okay, okay. I like this. So you can meet an elephant, for example, in the morning, and it's very polite and does its thing, and you're there, and it's there, and happy days. And then this afternoon, you know, it might have... Goke up with his girlfriend. Yeah, maybe it had his ass kicked by a bigger elephant or whatever, and then it's a completely different animal. Now it's a single elephant with a huge memory. You know, you laugh about this, but like I remember going on a game drive and a friend of mine is a game ranger and he was telling me about how elephants display many of the similar characteristics that we do in our society and one of them is if a group of young male elephants don't have like an older father figure elephant they just get up to mischief they destroy trees they go like hunt rhinos they just like kill rhinos and then they had to bring in an older male elephant and then there was just order and the older male was like the stepfather yeah basically the stepfather and he was like you don't be doing that shit in this house boy me and your mom me and your mom be talking about your ex's boy but yeah they need like the wise old dude because you know elephants are famed as being this incredible matriarchal society where the female led herds and we very often don't really talk about the social systems involved with the males it's just this big bull that comes in or horny one day and has his way and then goes off Right. And does male elephant things. Because he goes off by himself most of the time, right? Well, the males have these bachelor herds. And you're exactly right. Yeah, if you get these groups of young bulls, they're often the ones that are causing all the mischief, you know, crop raiding and all sorts. You can see the cogs turning, can't you? Desperately whirring for an innuendo. You said males by themselves in the push. You had me. You had me at hello. So what are they doing? But coming back to whether animals are assholes, Again, this is a very anthropomorphic viewpoint, but like some, you know, I've seen male dolphins go around in these male groups and they'll just go up to like a young male dolphin and do very naughty things to it. And you're like, was that really necessary? But they've got this incredibly complex social system. And I think trying to compare ours, if you look at their social systems through our lens, it's very easy to go, well, you're being an asshole. I have often thought this. I've often thought to myself, like, you know, like people will say things about dolphins. They'll be like, oh, dolphins sexually assault and dolphins do all these things. That's what people will say. Which people? No, I mean, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Hey, why do you defend him, Bertie? You've got to defend him, Bertie. This is otherwise... He was on a creep without a fan. But then I wonder, to your point, to your point, if you are observing something from your point of view and you don't have the full context, you don't know what's happening, right? Yeah. So, like, if animals were to see us engaging in S&M, they would also go back and report and be like, yo, the humans, man. Absolutely. I just watched this movie, 50 Shades of Grey. It's terrible what they do. It's terrible what they're doing to each other. You wouldn't. So maybe that's like an interesting place to delve into with your work. How do you discern between like the animal world and what the animals are experiencing and how we perceive what the animals are experiencing and what's going on in their world? Yeah, it's interesting. thing to think about because i guess one thing is nature documentarians you know we're often accused of anthropomorphizing things but our job is to connect people with the natural world so to a certain extent you have to sort of make comparisons to our world to sort of get people right so we feel connected you know you find the underdog or you know the the whoever um i think the other thing is you know when we're trying to get close to an animal without disturbing it you we want to film natural behavior. So we want to make sure the animal either doesn't know that we're there or that it knows we're there and it's kind of accepting of our presence. And a big part of that is being able to read animal body language. And just like we humans have a set of body languages, lots of animals do. I mean, we talked about crocodiles just before we started recording They have very little body language Their resting bitch face is very similar to their I love you face So let park those But in the case of say sharks or wolves they're a great one because they're very closely related to our pet dogs. So we're very good at, I think, naturally interpreting wild wolf body language. But you know, when we walk into a bar and we want to figure out like where to sit, you look around and subconsciously you're analyzing everyone's behavior And you know, if someone's, you know, bright red in the face and clenched fists or whatever, stay away from them. And then there's the smiley guy in the corner or whatever. I'm going to go sit next to him. Sharks, leopard seals, lions, they all have a set of body languages, you know, of cues. And it's our job to interpret those cues so that we can, you know, film them so that we're safe and they're safe. And also try and interpret what they're going to do next. and that's what I love is that I found when I was starting out I was crawling around I grew up in Reading near London and it wasn't a particularly wild place I live near some farmer's fields I used to go into the farmer's fields and kind of try and sneak up on deer and badgers and kingfishers and whatever and everyone thought I was weird I was like you know 13 14 when you should be I don't know trying to talk to girls or something um and i i found that i because i was starting to sort of by accident learn how to sneak up on these animals i i have my eyes open to this incredible world all these dramas going on the whole time that everyone just walks past and has no idea so it's you know it's not as far as sort of dr doolittle being able to talk to the animals but you sort of have like this this ability to interpret animal behavior that most people don't have and so you get this secret window into a this other world so when you're out there would you say you have an ability to disappear into their world like is there because i've always wondered this about nature documentaries is i'm like i've seen sometimes people just like lie in the same place forever sometimes you leave a camera behind sometimes you how real slash untouched is a nature documentary when you're making it how much influence are you having over it how much you know like so like when the animal sees you or doesn't see you or can you do something with your body language to let a lion know like we're cool I'm just here to film you killing stuff uh so what's really amazing about filming things like lions sort of a I guess a safari setup where you're in a vehicle is that we benefit from the fact that some very smart people have been habituating lions and wild dogs and cheetahs and all those savannah animals to a vehicle and so they are completely aware that the vehicle's there you know they can see it they can smell it they can hear it but because it has been in their landscape for their entire life and their mother's life and their grandmother's life you are just part of the landscape so someone has done a bunch of hard work that we're then benefiting from. Often we go to places where the animals have never seen people before. And so a big part of the shoot is not filming. It's either hiding from the animal, figuring out how to get close and hide or habituating the animal to our presence so that it knows we're there and is accepting of that. I mean, in the case of underwater filming, for example, on land, often if you're hiding from the animal, you can be in a little tent and you can be a couple of hundred meters away with a really powerful zoom lens. Underwater, you're limited by the visibility of the water. So if the water, you can only see 20 meters, well, you're not doing any hiding. The animal is going to know that you're there. So you need to figure out, okay, how do I behave so that the animal is relaxed with me? I mean, And one of my favorite animals to film is the leopard seal. They're these, I mean, they look like dragons. Yeah. And they live in Antarctica and they can be absolutely enormous. And they have a very similar skull to a grizzly bear. So they're just this amazing top predator. Well, not top predator, killer whale can eat them because killer whales are- Because killer whales kill. Yeah, they're badasses. We got this. So, yeah, so with them, I mentioned that all animals have personalities and they have different days. it's sort of like a lucky dip when you get in the water with a leopard seal. You see this leopard seal and you're like, okay, I'm going to get in. And very quickly, I'm going to learn whether this is a leopard seal that is friendly, is not pleased to see me. You just never know. And you learn very quickly. And sometimes you get out immediately because you're like, okay, that one didn't like me here. And some start very shy. And then in the space of an hour, you can sort of kind of flirt with them and get like sort of pretend you're not interested in them. Sort of they know where you're looking. So you kind of turn away, face your back and they come sneak up on you and then you go boo. And it's amazing that you can have this interaction with an animal that, you know, may never have seen a human being before, but you can read its body language and even call it, it can read yours. You're not just a weird alien human. It's like, oh no, it knows where you're looking. It knows whether you're, they often mirror your state. So it's really important that you're really chill. So they're really chill. If you get in the water, I've been in the water, taking other people down there that have never seen a leopard seal before. And I take them in the water and they're really on edge. And I hate it because the leopard seal is really on edge. Oh, wow. And then that person, you get them out the water and it's just me and the leopard seal. Suddenly leopard seal is a different animal. It's like, oh yeah, Sketchy Steve is out the water now. Sketchy Steve. We're cool. You can't trust Sketchy Steve. I think I've been a sketchy Steve I've been a sketchy I'm still a sketchy Steve No because you know I can't I can't Just find myself So I'm always stuck in the loop People will be like Just relax Then I'm like I would be relaxed If there wasn't this wild animal here Then they're like Yes but you relax And then the thing is I then remember Videos I've seen Of people who were too relaxed And didn't notice a shift In something And then all of a sudden life is not going well for them. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. So I don't know. Are you comfortable around animals? Like fully? Party animals? It's sketchy. Never trust a party animal. Never trust a party animal. But I've always been... I love animals, but from a distance. But I've always been fascinated by animals that come close to resembling human beings. So gorillas, chimpanzees. And I've often wondered, because I've once seen this video of chimpanzees hunting monkeys that for me was the scariest thing ever i've never have you ever had an experience like that i've never seen that yeah there's a very famous troop um uh yeah it's the i think it's called the ingogo troop and yeah there's i'm not sure how big it is now but at a time it was this enormous troop of chimpanzees there was like 50 or 60 chimps living together and Yeah, they'd go and set very clever traps to eat colobus monkeys. Wait, wait, what? See, those are assholes. Surely they're assholes. Well, I mean, why does eating monkeys make, why does that make them? Okay, why are all the other monkeys not doing this? Why are all the other chimpanzees not doing it is my question rather. Well, so it's really interesting because they don't do it all the time. It's sort of, okay, yes, it's a very rich source of protein that they do, but most of the time they're eating fruits and things. And I think it's actually, it's a huge sort of, it's almost a ceremonial thing for them. Like they get so amped and excited. It's a troop bonding exercise. It's not just, we're going to go out and get some food. It's designated roles. There's some who go and chase, shake down the tree and some who wait for the monkey to fall down. Then also when the monkey falls down and gets killed, there's also pieces that get divvied up. And who gets the meat first? You know, they're giving out favors for dominant hierarchy. I've always wondered why you're like that when we go out to like restaurants and stuff. Are you part of the Ngongu? And then you're like, Eugene will be like, Trevor, you shake the table. And then Ryan's going to order. And then I'm going to eat the first piece. I've always wondered where you got that from. Okay. Don't go anywhere because we got more What Now after this. do you do you ever do you ever find like human world just becomes like bleh because of the world you live in oh yeah absolutely i i have uh what i i describe as post post shoot blues yeah so i i come home from you know Antarctica or whatever and I always it it's usually the first couple days when I'm sort of readjusting to a different world well I mean for me what I struggle with is my normal life is expeditions and being far away um and so yeah I'll be like stood in a in a supermarket deciding what kind of salad I want to buy and I'm looking around being like what about penguins and icebergs can can i just go back to doing that it just seems so sort of insignificant uh in comparison to the in comparison like this whole world and the significance and there's these dramas going on um so yeah it's it's it's really tricky to make that adjustment what's what's the what's the worst experience you had like you know when you're on a shoot you're trying to do something things did not go according to plan an animal or like was there ever a moment like that i'm sure in all the years because how long have you been doing it now uh just over 10 years yeah so i mean surely in that time something has happened to you where you've gone well the most dangerous animal on every single shoot is humans boo yeah every single time The times that I have been in danger is because of a human. It's either directly from that human or the human has misinterpreted some animal body language and has put us in a dangerous situation. You've been attacked by humans on a chute somewhere? That has happened. Damn. Yeah, that was quite scary. What happened? we were in the arctic um and um we were in a very remote camp and one of the people we were working with uh we didn't realize was a drug addict and um not really sure what he was addicted to but we were basically uh because of a storm our supply boat was was cut off so every few days we were meant to be getting supplies with food and and fuel and all kinds of things what we didn't realize is that that boat was also delivering his drugs. And while he was on the drugs, he was actually pretty functional. And he didn't get those drugs and started to, yeah, go pretty mad. Damn, that's scary. This is in the Antarctic? It was in the Arctic. In the Arctic. Yeah. So you're like, there's nowhere to go. There's no... No. This seems like, you know those movies, this seems like a perfect thriller, horror movie scenario where you'd be like, it's unrealistic. explorers the movie starts they off to see the animals you know the whole thing and then they're exploring they're exploring the animals and then they're like oh there's a storm there's a storm we're hunkered down oh the boats are not coming in Bertie the boats are not we'll be fighting our supplies running low and then all of a sudden someone's just like ah yeah and it yeah and it started out sort of oh that was a weird thing that he just said and then it it kind of escalated and He started making threats. And then he snapped and jumped on, yeah, one of our team. And, yeah, I was trying to strangle her. And, yeah, another one of the team managed to get her off. And I get him off. And we were in polar bear country. So, you know, we carry shotguns. So there's just a lot of, you know, I remember at one point looking at this situation with, yeah, him trying to get to her. And at my feet, there was a shotgun for the polar bears and a paddle for a stand-up paddleboard. And I was like, okay, what am I going to pick here? And then I was like, I'm just going to use my words. And yeah, it all got very, very scary. And I ended up, well, we ended up managing to distract him, get her away. um he had a i won't uh won't name her um get her away and um sort of separate the two of them and then my job was basically to distract him long enough for the rest of the team to make a plan to get find a way to get evacuated from this remote place so i we the reason we were out and away from the camp was we were trying to collect fresh water so we need to go up the river so i yeah we basically both went up this river into the just the two of you uh we were with an Another guy as well. And yeah, we were distracting him and sort of, yeah, trying to keep him occupied. And he would, what was most scary about this was he would flip-flop between being this crazy, really scary person and then being absolutely lovely with not really any recollection of what had happened. It was sort of Jekyll and Hyde. And I remember we'd filled up the water jugs. You know, I'd managed to stall them for about an hour and I was on the stand-up paddleboard that we were using to transport the water jugs and he was walking on the riverbank next to me and I was paddling along just like, yeah, trying to keep him calm. And I remember he suddenly got really on edge and was rummaging around in his pockets and I was like, oh God, what's he got in his pocket? Is it a gun, a knife? What is it? He looked really on edge. All of a sudden he pulls out his phone and he's like oh i just set up a tiktok account i'm gonna take a video of you on the stand-up paddleboard and for my tiktok is that okay i was like this is a very strange situation to be in sketchy steve yeah sketchy steve yeah and uh by the time we got back to camp um yeah the rest of the team had managed to make a plan that uh there was a research plane in the area and they were able to actually land on the beach that we were on. And yeah, we got our team out and we actually made the decision to take the guy with us because at the point that the plane arrived, he was in the good mood. And we were like, we don't want to leave him here. Did you guys want the pilot at least? Because this is really like a movie. No, no. Because now on the plane, it's like, oh man, next thing you know, it's Bane. Yeah. And then, yeah. So we sort of chatted to him and then we got him back to the town and then went our separate ways. When you tell a story like that, it makes me wonder, how did we, because you work in this world now, how did we get to the place where, I think I'm safe in saying that more people in the world are terrified by animals than by people. 100%. Do you know what I'm saying? I'm completely the opposite. Yeah, but how did we get there? Like, where do these myths come from? Where do they? I mean, clearly, we spoke about one earlier where I was talking about like the killer whales and you're like, oh, they're attacking the bull. And everyone thinks this. I think a lot of people think this. And then you're like, no, one area. Well, classic example is human fear of wolves. Okay. So, you know, there's lots of movies, Hollywood movies about wolves eating people and all this stuff. But okay, in North America, how often do you think someone gets killed by a wolf? Maybe once a year. One time a year. Yeah. I'm going to say- So sharks is between five and 10 a year globally. Then I'm going to say- So with wolves, what do you think? Wolves, I'm going to say attacked 20 times a year. Actually, fatal attack. Fatal attacks? Oh, no, no, no. Fatal attacks, I'm going to say seven. Per year? Yeah, seven. Eugene? I'll say one. Wow. Yeah, one attack a year. What if I told you that in recent history, so in the last few hundred years, that number's actually more like two total? What do you mean? In how many years? Not average. No, no, no, no, no. Total. Since. No, come on, Bertie. Come on now. You're telling me we've made all these movies about a thing that happened two times. And in both those times, if you actually read about them, it is not conclusive that the wolf actually did it. Ah, ah, ah. So then you ask the question, okay, why, well, whodunit, yeah, but why do we have, why does our society have this incredible hatred? You know, Little Red Riding Hood, the big bad wolf, why as a child are we taught that wolves are so dangerous when at the same time we keep their closest living relative in our homes? So I have a theory for this. Okay. But I don't know if it's right or it's wrong. when i when i read through like old historical accounts of like explorers and travelers people who are going around the world hunting one of the things i've learned is whether they were colonizers or whether they were just like hunters one of the most powerful tools they used to justify what they were doing was turning the the subject of their action into like a dangerous villain yeah you get what i'm saying and so it's a lot easier i think to have people not judge you for killing wolves and and and you know what i mean taking their their furs if you tell them that you're protecting them you you have hit the nail on the head yeah that is that is exactly why our our you know society has this hatred towards wolves because you know livestock farming is a is a huge part of our society. And wolves do sometimes kill livestock. And it is much easier to justify the killing of a wolf if everyone hates them. Just like, you know, with sharks, it's only very recently that everyone's sort of waking up to the fact that sharks might actually be really important to healthy oceans and we need healthy oceans. But prior to that, you know, with jaws and our fear of sharks, No one really cares that sharks were getting killed. So why would you want to protect something that you're terrified of? What do you think people don't get about conservation? Because you've said it a few times, it's like not just because they're cute, not just because they're nice. Like when I was growing up, that's all I watched in most nature documentaries. It was sold as like this idea of like, they won't be here anymore. That's why we need to protect them because they won't be here anymore. And then it almost seemed like it's the novelty that justifies us protecting an animal. It's the right thing to do. Yeah, it was just like, it's the right thing to do. This is a cute animal that you'll never get to see. That's why you need to protect it. Which I think is a bad argument. Yeah. Tell me more. Tell me more. Well, because, okay. So nature provides so many things that we need from clean water, productive soils, the air we breathe. regulating our climate. You know, we're part of this incredible life support system that's free and it provides us with all these ecosystem services that we completely take for granted. So selfishly, we should want to look after the natural world because it's to protect ourselves. You know, if we can look after the environment and make sure that wild systems are healthy, we make them more resilient, they can then better protect us from the effects of climate change or whatever the thing may be. Even like disease is what I've learned on some of these things. Okay, look at all of the big sort of pandemics that have happened. Most of them come from the mistreatment of domestic animals or wild animals or it's us being very naughty. And unsurprisingly, bad things happen when you're naughty. Because I love nature documentaries, I often wonder to myself, aren't we getting in the way of evolution? Because sometimes you have those series where they show you the prehistoric relative of a certain creature. But because conditions change, humans interfered, they invaded Satan's spaces, the animals evolved to something else. Aren't we right now standing in the way of evolution of certain creatures because we just want to conserve the way they look now? for our own selfish reasons, because we just like what this bird looks like now. But the dodo bird, you know, was something else and it became something else and it became something else because life and the climate and the conditions around it changed. Yeah, it's an interesting perspective. I guess what I would say is that evolution happens on very slow timescales. And what is different about what we are doing now, we are in, you know, in history, there have been these mass extinction events. and we're now in one when the rate of extinction goes up incredibly high there's sort of this big purge and i think with with humans um we often talk about wanting to save the world when actually in the long term world the planet world is fine it's gonna be just fine it's just whether or not we exist or whether we exist on a place that's actually you know nice to be we're not just sort of surviving i think that's where the groups that do these things have done really well they have sort of participated in making us think of it as save the world which then arrogantly puts us at the center of it again in the wrong way you know it's like like oh do you want to save the world and it's like all right world if you need me i'll save you and it's like no no no no no no my friend no yes do you want to be alive do you get what i'm saying do you want to be able to go outside and not have a summer that is literally unlivable? Do you want to be able to grow food? Do you not want an animal to come hunt your dog? Because that's the thing I think is so amazing when you watch these documentaries and you go, oh, you know why this animal is here hunting your dog or catching your cat It because where it was supposed to be there no more animals There no more prey Do you get what I saying Like polar bears I seen are like coming further and further down as the ice melts right They're just like coming more into like brown land territory, I think. Well, I mean, yes, they're spending more time. You know, many polar bears spend the, you know, part of the year on the sea ice, on the ocean's frozen. And then in the summertime, when the ice melts, they spend the time on land sort of hanging out. And if they haven't managed to get enough calories during that important time when they're on the ice, they need to go looking for stuff. And so, yes, they will come into contact with humans. They live in a very sort of inert, smellless environment. And then you have a human settlement. Suddenly that's like, ooh, opportunity. Right. And they'll come into that. So, yeah, when we mess with wild systems, that's when you get more human wildlife conflict. But I think kind of sort of taking one step back, you talk about saving the world and that idea. I think one of the biggest communication failures in history is that we've been led to believe that climate change is about, it was just about temperature and carbon emissions. These kind of abstract terms, right? so I can say oh 400 parts per million or you know it's going to go by 3 degrees like okay I sort of get it but that's basically if you ask someone on the street that isn't a climate scientist what's climate change about they're going to tell you probably about carbon dioxide and temperature but that's they're not actually the problems they are you know proxies for what the actual problem is that those two things when they go up lead to the destruction of nature. So I feel like rather than talking about climate change and how we need to fight that, we should just be talking about the destruction of nature. Because I feel like everyone can get on board with the fact that if you cut down a really big old tree, that is a bad thing. And so if you also approach it in terms of the giant climate change and it's such a massive problem and requires so much global cooperation in our broken, divided world. It's very easy to just throw your hands up and go, well, what am I meant to do as an individual? Whereas if you talk about the destruction of nature, suddenly you as an individual, whether you're the CEO of a huge company or a politician or just someone with a little apartment down the road from here, you can do, okay, they're on different scales, but you can do your bit to make the planet wilder and healthier, whether that be plants in your garden that are insect pollinator-friendly to help local bees, or choose to protect a huge area of ocean if you're a politician. And the thing I love about that is that it's actionable, and you will see quantifiable positive change. If you plant a bunch of wildflowers in your garden, you will see a bunch of insects coming to those that weren't there before. And isn't that cool? The fact that everyone can have an impact even on the tiniest level. Exactly. We talked about those CEOs. They're interested in ROIs. Well, there you go. Do a thing, gets better. That's the problem with, yes, of course, we need to look at our individual carbon footprints or changing our diets to consume less or no meat. All these things you can do, it's very hard to quantify the impact of those things. If you choose not to fly tomorrow, well the global temperature isn't going to come down because of your one action. You should still think about doing it. Whereas when it comes to rewilding the planet you will see a quantifiable positive change. And people don't like being told to stop doing things. Yeah, that's true. But what about if you do a thing and then it makes a better thing? You know what I mean? I just think it's a much more positive proactive approach. It is actually, it is a proactive approach. But here's where I'm often conflicted when it comes to conservationalists and nature documentary makers is, for example, you'd go to the Ngorongoro crater, shoot a bunch of animals, right? Put that out on television. People all of a sudden are interested in going and seeing these animals. Now all of a sudden there's 50,000 Land Rovers there disturbing the exact same thing that you try to do. Yeah, it's a great point. So I'm really glad you point this up, brings up. So in my new show on Disney+, Cheetahs Up Close, we filmed Cheetahs in the Serengeti. And- Because cheetahs are going to be extinct, right? Cheetahs are- They're pretty much gone. Not doing well. Yeah. So there's less cheetahs in the wild than there are lions, less cheetahs in the wild than there are rhinos. You know, it's not good. Yeah. But for some reason, I think maybe because they're really, really fast, everyone thinks they're okay. Yeah. But the- Your metabolism. Slim waste. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Would gain you a lot of enemies. because they're fast, they're okay. And, you know, David Attenborough summarized it really well that we're loving these animals to death because where they are, you know, people want to go see cheetahs and, you know, in places where tourism is badly managed, they get surrounded by vehicles, they can't sneak up on their prey, they can't see bigger predators coming for them and their cubs, the hyenas, the lions, which is actually the biggest challenge that cheetahs face. And so what I would say to that is wildlife tourism is an amazing thing if managed correctly because it gives a value to those animals alive. if you look at it in in you know in many places um where uh well as an example i did a show that came on disney plus a few months ago called dolphins up close uh in in the azores uh islands which are a group of islands off portugal exactly in in the atlantic and uh yeah that community used to thrive on on whaling that was their big industry and uh interviewed this amazing whaler called Daniel. He'd spent his life whaling and spotting whales. And yeah, him and the community realized actually people wanted to go see these whales and they are worth more alive than dead. And so he now- So it's more sustainable. Well, he's now spots the whales and instead of calling a whaling boat onto them to harpoon them, he calls in a boat full of tourists to go in and take pictures. Now, of course, there is the potential for that boat to be disturbing. But if managed correctly, it's a much better thing. Because I feel like in an ideal world, okay, maybe you could say that, well, we should protect these places and then leave them alone and keep all the people out. But conservation is as much about the animals as it is about the humans that live in that place. And those animals, sadly, in our capitalist world, have to have an economic value to incentivize protecting them. So of course, there's the intrinsic value of looking after these animals. They're cute, they're wonderful. It's the right thing to do. But we need the extrinsic value, which is the economic one, to make it ironically sustainable in the long term. It's the paradox of everything these days. If you don't have an economic... Have you seen how if they try a program, let's say in Scandinavia, or they were piloting a four-day work week and whatever. People in the US were like, we'll never do that. Many places are like, this is stupid. And then someone wrote a paper about the economic benefits of it. And then all of a sudden companies were like, yeah, we're gonna try this. We're gonna try it. They're like, oh, you'll actually get more. As soon as there's a financial incentive. But look, that is the world we live in now. You have to show the economic something. Traffic doesn't get dealt with until somebody shows a politician how much a city is losing because of that traffic. But you can get very sad and cynical about it, but actually it's like, well, let's just play the game by their rules. Yeah, exactly. And then we can all agree. Yeah, you just go like, for every cheetah that dies, this is how much money you're losing in tourism. This is how much money you will lose in, this is how much money you will lose. You know what I mean? It's really interesting if you find the right incentive. Totally. When we were there with the cheetahs, the reason that that national park exists and isn't just a giant cow farm or cow pasture is because of the money being brought in from each of the tourists that goes there. Now, we saw that in some places it is badly managed. Right. So, and actually a study came out that showed that cheetah cub survival was much lower in places that had a lot of tourism. Yeah. Oh, wow. Badly managed tourism. So this isn't just like, oh, I feel like this is a bad thing when that cheetah family gets surrounded by cars. No, it's been proven. So therefore, it's really important that we do it correctly. And so that is, you know, it's on the guide. But I think also it's on us as people that go there and are guests in these places to ask questions. because the guides are under huge amounts of pressure there. Safaris, for various reasons, have traditionally been incredibly expensive and so very exclusive. Whereas now, mass tourism, cheaper tourism is becoming possible. And it means that just to make the economics of the trip work, if you're selling it for cheap, people will go on safari not for a week, they will go for one day. now the guide he will get a really big tip if he manages to find all five of the best animals so he's just got to rip around and for some reason now that we all have a phone rather than bringing a normal camera we now expect to get really close to everything to get a good picture of it so we would follow these cheaters from a distance and then over the radio you know we were a filming car and they knew what we were doing so they always know ah filming car they're good at finding the cheetahs we had the follow you we had these amazing guides that would you know find stuff all the vehicles would would come to us and we've created this horrible problem where now this cheetah family is is surrounded by cars very close and the cops can't hear their mom's call all that stuff so we'd watch and people would be they'd drive rather than sitting you know 100 meters away 50 meters away like we would with our really powerful technology they would drive all the way up and and so that the guide got a tip that they want to be in a good position they'd lean out and take a picture on the phone of the cheetah right there and and so actually yes you could blame that on the guide okay it's his you know he needs to sort of feed his family well yeah but he needs to educate the tourists on you know but actually i think it's equally as much our responsibility to go hang on i blame the phone companies why aren't they making better cameras that can make longer zooms yeah yeah yeah but make more wildlife zooms so that people can zoom in we need longer telephoto lenses so get on it phone companies it's amazing how you know what we should also do it's a good point you know what we should also do is you should start making like i don't know how we'll do this ethically we'll figure it out we make like scam um nature documentaries where you just tell people there's animal but there's nothing there and you just go like oh a welcome to the jungles of Long Island where we found, and then you just diffuse people. You know what I mean? Oh, right. Some people are going to get bamboozled. You don't have to put those out because Disney won't buy those, but just put them out online and it can just be like- Spread the humans out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? And just like make a thing and be like, guys, I found this place where you can see cheetahs for really cheap and then just send them somewhere random. Spread them all out. You know what I mean? I think those- We diffuse the thing. Those cameras work just fine. I've seen them being used at Beyonce concerts people are sitting way at the back at the nosebleeds but they're able to zoom in and see her but all of a sudden when there's a cheetah you need to get closer and closer and closer I think the other thing that seems to be a disconnect I think especially in our sort of I think it used to be that when you watched BBC Planet Earth documentaries that was kind of the only sort of well relatively yeah the only sort of huge amazing way to see a video of a whale right whereas now which is you know you scroll through instagram you're just bombarded with everything so i think we sort of normalized it and so now when when lots of people do get to go to these amazing wild places which i think is a great thing um for all the you know reasons we talked about they sort of forget that actually this is a wild place yeah and all these animals it's this isn't a zoo it's not this abstract world that's in your phone like it's a real thing and actions that you take will decide whether or not this animal lives or dies like the stakes are that high and i think it's sort of reminding people to that that that you you've got to have this this respect i think it might actually might sound very trivial but you are at disney and disney has made a lot of cartoons i think animating and giving animals personalities are sort of skewed the way people should look at animals and not try to find out what the animals' personalities are, like you're explaining. But I would argue in a way, though, that that is sort of a traditional sort of documentary approach is look at the grandeur of this amazing place. And whereas... Cartoons. Or even now, I guess, more recent nature documentaries, we do try and personify the characters. Yeah, they're fully characters now. And I think it's probably gone too far, but it is a way to sort of engage people and get people to fall in love rather than just it being this like Beautiful wallpaper. We'll be right back after this short break. What do you think we could take from the animals? I often wonder this, like that dolphin bachelor crew that you're talking about. I knew we were going to circle back to that. Why do you choose bachelor instead of... Good, that's what he said. Yeah. He said bachelor. It's a technical term, yeah. Don't try that with me. Hey, buddy. Hey, buddy. Hey. I already have a rap sheet with you. Don't add more things than necessary. No, like I remember seeing that and I found myself wondering, I was like, are there any things we could take from nature? Do you ever see things where you're like, oh yeah, this could probably work for us as humans. We should be doing this. This could be like a way of life. This could be a, you know what I mean? I don't know if this answers your question, but it's just popped into my mind that wild animals' lives are really really hard yeah but they are really good at doing what they do and that's how they thrive and so i hard they're really hard really good at what they do right they like they're they're they're really focused so what i take from that is okay for whatever i do i've got to do my best to get really really good at it oh okay i like this and i'm not saying that no no specialize Like really go into Go into something Get good at it Yeah Try and do your best To try and become Like a master of it Because that's how you That's how you Eugene what would you say You were a master at If you were to say one thing And you can't pick comedy It has to be something else I'm going to ref sheet With you my friend And then actually I want to show you a video To show you how hard Some animals lives are No show us What you got Show us what you got Okay you have the most wholesome camera role of any human being you can get any girl like just any so this is a female mountain lion and she is hunting a guanaco which is like a wild llama she is so close she's got to be within 30 meters now I think she's gonna go. Yeah, here she goes. She's going. Who are you cheering for? He's got it. The llama? No, the mountain lion. Really? Yeah. No. Go Pataka, go! Oh my god, what a fight. She's got it, she's got it. The Gornako's still fighting, it's trying to buck her off. So my point is, animals have really hard lives. Whoa, but you can't just go and say my point is after that There's so many thoughts I had after that video Eugene will ask his questions And then I'm going to ask my questions Okay, break it down First of all, mine's not really It's a question for society really Why don't we make that the experience When we're getting like takeouts You know what I'm saying? Imagine having to do They have to do that once a week for their whole life And I'm saying this selfishly as somebody Once a week Who you know Once a week for their whole life Yeah, because sometimes I'm like Hey man, it's so easy to eat the foods that I'm eating and then I'm just putting on weights and I'm like, ah, man, I just wish, it would be great if I walked into a takeout place and then immediately had to get into it. Can I get the chef? Two piece, you want four pieces. Bring out more. Can I get fries? Bring out another one. Kick in the face. I mean it would be good for society It's so unprofessional It would be good for society You know what I mean And then at the end of it When you're eating your fries And then everyone's there Bleeding and stuff And they're like How the hell is the fear It's dope Really really good fries But you would You would eat less of it You know what I mean Like that animal looks like It's crazy in shape How many times Does that hunt Have to happen For that animal to survive So that's a An individual called Pataka So she's like a known individual So for that puma to survive How many times does Pataka have to do that? So she had her and her two cubs. She has to take down a guanaco. Yeah, sort of a wild, big wild llama like that. Maybe every, once every seven to 10 days. Yo. For her whole life. Yo. For her whole life. Every single guy's struggle. Take down a guanaco. And what's crazy. The local bar. It's a guanaco. What it's been? How long has it been? we can relate I love how you're also cheering how do you choose which animal to cheer for well that's a tough one because as a wildlife camera person we are we can never get involved and so it's important to not to try I guess we're normally told to not get emotionally involved. You were really involved. You were screaming, Pataka! Pataka! Joe, kill him! What I mean by him... Kill him, Pataka! I was very emotionally involved. Kill him dead, Pataka! Pataka's life don't matter! You're the Corbin! Pataka, kill him! Oh no, sticking a leg out trying to trip it up. You sounded like Joe Rogan at UFC. Get him! Get him! So what I was going to say, if I was allowed to finish, was we are normally told to not get emotionally attached, but often when you spend all day, every day, following an individual animal for a month or two, and you know the stakes because you know it's cubs that it has to feed. I feel like often people want to choose the side of the prey because that's the thing being attacked. And I think that's often because, you know, prey is very cute. But my point often is Well if Okay if we're going to play By those rules And based on cuteness Baby predators Are usually the cutest animals Like a baby mountain lion Oh my god They're so cute So yeah I don't think that's good logic But that's sort of A side note there But my point is With Pataka Her life is Incredibly hard But she is so good At doing that She has mastered that She's like an Olympic athlete I really like that one Pataka She's a single black mom Yeah, that fighting hard. My two cubs and I'm going in there. Two cubs, public schooling. Going in there, doing it. Can I say that also is a valuable lesson for life though. Don't be a single black man. I mean, that one's the hardest thing to be. Sure. If you are going to, or rather, if we lived in a world where we were more able to see and spend time with other people, we might have a little more compassion for the situation that they're in. Because think about it. This is a random puma. And then just because you spent time observing her and her life with her cubs, you now had a vested interest in her survival. And success. Yeah, and I almost feel like if we just had a little bit of that in society, just think. It's just empathy, isn't it? Yeah, but it's contact. And I mean, we've talked about this. You know, I'm a big believer in this. This is part of why I love pickleball. And I always tell you these things But like If you meet people And if you spend time with them You're just more likely To be concerned About their well-being Yeah And who they are And how they are And the further we are from them The less we're likely to consider them And their survival But bring it back to the wolves We talked about If you actually spend time with wolves In the wild Which I been very lucky enough To have done Yeah You very quickly realize That they are not these sort of mindless man killers They have these amazing social systems and they are so stoked to be alive and in a pack And they love, oh my God, they love each other so much. It is so lovely. You know when like if you have a dog and you come home and the dog, they do that, but there's like 10 of them and there's no humans and they're just having a great party with each other and sniffing each other and having an awesome time. That's pickleball. That's pickleball. Yeah. Is it true that one of the greatest threats to these wild systems is how we expanding farming? I mean, in the case of wolves, yeah. I mean, conflict with livestock. But I guess it comes back to that empathy of if we don't spend time with them documenting their lives, showing how amazing and awesome that they are, but they're just they're not individuals they're just wolves they're a far away place it's very easy for someone to go along and be shooting them and go yeah terrible evil wolves again it's that it's a double-edged sword you need that that view into their world so what were your questions about the video? that video That video was heartbreaking For why? I mean When the person shooting the video Has clearly chosen a side And As the llama you hear They're fighting for your life There's a guy there In a no space jacket Shouting for your death While your own llama kids are watching you. I feel like most of it. It's kind of fair. Yeah, it's kind of fair. I guess if you would like the context, I can make a shameless plug. If you watch the whole episode, it's part of a series called Animals Up Close on Disney+. You can see, you can meet Pataka. You can see her cubs. You can see the stakes, the challenges that she faces and why hunting guanaco is very challenging. And far more often, the guanaco wins. Oh, the guanaco wins? That stamping was... Far more often, yeah. Far more often. Most of the time, the pumas fail. They get bucked off and have terrible injuries. How many pumas are there and how many guanacas are there? There's a lot more guanacos than pumas. That's what I'm assuming. Yo, did you see how that thing was stamping on it? Yeah, they've got the crazy neck dip. Oh, that they do like... Yeah, I mean, what a strategy. Yeah. Yeah, you want to jump on my back and crawl on my neck? I'm going to neck dip you. You know what? Actually, you brought up farming, and I think farming has done a lot for conservation as well. I was watching this one piece about sturgeon and how wild sturgeon had almost become a stick. What is sturgeon? As in the fish? The fish that they use for caviar. Oh, okay, okay. So they... I'm not familiar with fish. Oh, yes, prehistoric looking fish. Amazing animals. Gigantic. What, that one with the face like that? Okay, then what face was this now? What face was this now? Was it wrong? No. Was it right? I don't know because I'm asking. I'm looking at it, Mina, yeah. Was that the one? You've seen wild animals before. What is this? Do it again. Is it close? Are you sure? Yeah. I think it's fine. Anyway. I'm just trying to clarify which fish. Keep going. Sorry, sturgeon. Carry on. Sounds like a prestigious person, sturgeon. Every time he says the word sturgeon from now, we're going to do an impression. So what they've realized is sturgeon was almost extinct. Don't do that Was almost extinct Because obviously They were being killed For their eggs But it actually takes Very long For a sturgeon To reach full maturity So that it can bear eggs Oh so it can bear the eggs Yes so they were Getting extinct So in the EU They said no more Wild sturgeon So most of the carrier That you see now Comes from farmed Oh as in fish farming Fish farming yes Right So it's done a lot Obviously for For nature conservation They do it with lots Does that count as nature conservation though? Let's back it up. Why not? Well, I would say that I don't know specifically a huge amount about the particular example with sturgeon. But if you look at other systems, for example, farmed salmon or even tuna, which is ranched, it's often used as a way to say, oh, this is much more sustainable because we're not affecting wild stocks. we're raising them in captivity. But actually, the reality is that it's complete and utter BS. Okay, you take tuna, for example. So bluefin tuna, previously, let's take the Mediterranean, for example, they would go on this crazy migration in the Atlantic, and then some of them come into the Mediterranean Sea to breed. And so they would go past certain European countries a couple times a year on their way into the Mediterranean on the way out. So these countries would get two chances to fish them each year when they swam past. And what would happen was they would fish a huge amount during that period, they would sell them mostly to the Japanese sushi market. And it's classic supply and demand. You sell lots of tuna, you flood the market, the price drops. So what they realized is instead of fishing them and killing them, what if they ranched them? So they would go catch a whole bunch. They would put them in these huge nets and they would keep them alive in these nets throughout the year. So then they could sell them when the price was right. And it was often said, oh, well, you know, this takes pressure off of hunting more from the wild. I mean, that seems rights? Well, there's two flaws to this. One is if you're catching a huge, huge amount, well, you're still removing them from the wild. You're not actually farming those. But the bigger issue is, okay, I visited one tuna ranch, okay? And they had 24 nets. In each net, they had 1,000 bluefin tuna. And these bluefin tuna can be- Those things are massive. They can be two to 300 kilos, these fish. They're enormous. Yeah, so 1,000 fish in one net. Guess how much food you have to feed 1,000 bluefin tuna per day. Oh, shit. Tons and tons, I'm sure. Six to 10 tons of fish per net. This one ranch had 24 nets. that means they are feeding that farm up to 240 tons of prey fish per day that has to come from somewhere where does that come from it comes from anywhere in the ocean around the world so once a week this enormous ship would turn up with herring from norway uh anchovies from the coast of chile uh sardines from the coast of south africa wherever it was cheap and these fish would get poured into these nets. We were catching fish to feed fish. You know, the worst thing about... So we're just hoovering up the... This is the dark. The worst thing about learning is that it can make you very depressed. Yeah, 100%. No, genuinely, because I think there's a lot of people out there, myself included, who would go like, oh, this is much better. Yeah. Because, you know, you're farming it and now you're telling me, oh yeah, the second system effect of doing this has far more detrimental effects on the food supply and on the ecosystem than we thought previously. So then, okay, then what do we do? I mean, that is part of the reason I've always liked your work as well is every time I've seen you, every time I've watched your videos, you'll always offer a solution. You'll always, you don't just go like, man, that's all folks, it sucks. Right. Right. Because there's enough depressing stuff in the world. Yeah. What are some of the success stories that you've come across or you've been a part of where you go, oh, look, this is like an achievable difference we can make. It's not big. It's not monumental. It's not like shutting down industries. What are some of the- Totally. Well, I mean, really staying with the theme of the ocean, the really amazing thing about the ocean is that if you give it the chance, it comes back on an unbelievable scale. the speed so uh a really awesome conservation success story uh there's a place called raja ampat uh in indonesia's it's amazing archipelago it looks like something out of a storybook it's all these little islands covered in green jungle and around those islands underwater is some of the most amazing coral reef but in many places in in raja ampat uh you dive on those places and it's just a rubble field um because they've been dynamite fished so that's when uh fishermen would come along they would chuck a stick of dynamite into the water it goes bang the fish all the fish come up to the surface you know dead stunned uh you get a quick easy catch but of course the fragile coral reef is left destroyed that coral reef is the basis of the whole ecosystem and so once you've trashed that bit of reef well it's it's gone you have to move to the next place now if you're doing that on a very small scale okay maybe that could work but there's lots of people. And it's, yeah, so it was trashed. So about 20 years ago, in a place called Missoult, the community came together and they were backed by pretty significant private philanthropy. They came together and they said, enough is enough. You know, the ecosystem is dying. And as a fishing community, we are really, really struggling. So they basically just set up a no-take zone. You're not allowed to fish in it. Many of the fishermen became kind of rangers, some of them became dive guides and 20 years on this place has made an extraordinary comeback and in that time the biomass that's the weight of living things at some of the key locations it's gone up by 600% and it's one of the only places on earth where the biodiversity so it's the number of different species is actually increasing and they're also replanting the coral reef And so the coolest thing about that is that, okay, nature's thriving. Humans are directly thriving because they're being paid to be rangers and dive guides and all that stuff. But the best part is that the marine life doesn't understand the borders that we draw. So it moves outside of those protected areas into the take zone. And so the local fishing community is actually doing really well. Yeah. Yeah, it's, I mean, it's so trivial to say, but it really is, it really feels like everything you say is just us not having a wide enough aperture to actually understand time and the benefits of things. You have to make a small short-term sacrifice for a long-term massive gain, not just economic. yeah it's it's all become extractive now that's that's the issue is like we live in a world where companies want to extract as much as possible from everyone all the time as much as possible now now now now now and so growth has no longer been something and you see you see that it's it's it's not one way or the other by the way there are many companies out there especially like companies that haven't gone public where they they make a shit ton of money and the product is still good and the customer is still served and they and they treat their customers their workers well because they get to define their own growth yeah do you know what i mean they don't have to just just like vacuum up shareholder value everything yeah shareholder value like where's more more more more it's like yeah you it can be more sustainably but sustainably i do wonder if in x period of time 10 20 years we'll look back on this time you know we now we look back on you know certain things that we've done in the past that we were like those people were really bad they that was really bad and you know when we look at you know things like slavery um or or colonization and i wonder if in the future we're going to look back on certain things that we're doing to the environment now and go oh yeah what what what do you mean you you did that for shareholder what do you mean shareholder value yeah like what what's going on there i think you you're you're assuming we'll still all be around for that because this is the weird thing you know um the other day i started like reading about extinction level events one thing that's most terrifying about them is how they it's just like a tipping point you know it's just like one thing that tips and then all of a sudden it unravels yeah it just unravels it's like oh you lost this much forest or at a certain time this changed in the atmosphere and then all of a sudden all the trees died and then that caused the thing and this caused but it's just like it's just a tipping point and then the world has to go to sleep for a few hundred years or thousand years and then this got very dark and depressing and so what i would say is that uh yes we obviously have big challenges but there are so many good news conservation success stories now you're gonna see why i love bertie there are so many and not not to say that you we should you know bury our heads in the sand and ignore the rest of the world no no but if we focus on when we've got it right rather than going naughty naughty this is what you did wrong i feel like it's yeah it comes back to that thing of uh yeah if you're told not to do something you will do it yeah you're gonna do it Whereas if you're told, you can do, inspire and celebrate the wins. So what's the thing that's inspired you most recently where you've gone like, oh, what are you working on right now, actually? Like you always, every time I see you, you're working on something more crazy and more interesting and it just goes in the most random directions. So I'm working on a couple of different projects with Disney Plus. It's really exciting. Continuing my Up Close series. So in each episode, we go and- Do animals ever recognize you, by the way? That's funny Aren't you that guy? No I'm being serious Was cheering when my mom Are you the Pataka guy? No what I mean is I mean this genuinely Because you go back To some places I'm assuming I wonder if you've ever Encountered any animal That has in some way Shown you like a familiar Like cause Cause you know the animals Is what I'm saying Right Have you ever had that encounter where an animal has sort of like gone like, oh shit, obviously not going like Bertie's. Well, so in the case of Pataka, so the reason that I know her is that when she was a cub, when she was six months old in 2017, I filmed her for a BBC David Attenborough series called Seven Worlds. And I was filming her mother, Sermiento. And Sermiento was fighting to protect her cubs and feed her cubs and raise her cubs. And one of those cubs was Pataka. She was six months old. She was this little fluffy cubs This is the context You should have given us earlier We thought she was out here Cheering for a murderer You've known her Since she was a child So then I went back Yeah four or five years later And now she has Not only survived Which is a big deal For Puma cubs Because they don't have Great survival rates But she was now Her mother had passed away Semiento And now she'd taken over Her mother's territory And was raising her own cubs Now it felt like Going back to see This long lost friend Yeah yeah yeah And obviously She was just like I don't know you Who are you? I think if you do it long enough It'll happen I genuinely do Here's what And maybe it's the types of animals Don't get me wrong I'm not expecting a crocodile To be your friend But I do think like an elephant Maybe a whale I'm willing to We'll have this conversation Why not a crocodile? Okay I don't think crocodiles roll like that Why? I just don't I was recently on a project That hopefully Disney will be okay with me Talking about it Because it's Not the main focus of the show but I did meet a manta ray. Okay. Oh, wow. Like huge giant oceanic manta ray. Yeah. Five meter plus wingspan. Five meter. Oh yeah. I don't think they could get that big. Moana's grandmother did. Yeah. That was beautiful imagery, Eugene. I hate it when you do that to me, but I love it. And manta rays have, relative to their body size, the largest brain of any fish. They're actually incredibly intelligent and they pass the mirror test so they they can recognize themselves yeah which is pretty mind-boggling um but this particular manta ray she came over to us on our first dive at this particular location and she was really friendly um and she sort of parked over our heads and i won't tell you what what she did because that would be giving the game away okay the episode's about we'll park that down the road um but what was amazing was that for the the rest of the five days that we're at this location every single time we got in the water she would come and find us this is what i was asking now the question is okay they are technically capable of differentiating between humans uh-huh uh-huh so was she just a massive attention seeker and went to go and be really nice to everyone or was there something special about us and she wanted to come hang out with us I think we know the answer I hope it's the latter but maybe not we know that she had a Disney Plus subscription she was like that's Bertie and then she was like you know let me go say what's up she's like I want to be in that show Moana is on Disney oh yeah Moana is also on Disney look at this it's a collaboration cross-pollination we've done huh this is what they call synergy in the corporate world synergy Eugene you they'll love you and you must go to corporate one day you gotta go and do it Bertie this has been amazing man I'm really excited for like everything I just like you know I'll tell you why because you've helped me and I think millions of other people who've watched the shows understand the link between the worlds and not in like a cheesy way just genuine in like a you know like ROI kind of way you've really helped people go like oh wow alright we need that animal we need all of these animals we need these creatures to survive so that we can get our food so that we can live our lives so that we can you know i mean yeah no i love i love the fact that you uh emphasize that because you know humans always think they can go elsewhere like if things don't work out in this reef they can go somewhere else and then planet b this guy but sorry carry on but now you've made it possible or for me to even imagine that we must coexist with the animals that we've displaced we don't have to be away from dengoro-ngoro crater to be close to the animals or to love them even you know we can be there we can't love them to death but i think you've done a lot man and i hadn't known much about you until we spoke today and i see your passion and i see why my friend here loves you so much wow well thanks very much for having me guys it's good to chat and getting people to care about animals in the natural world and i would encourage people wherever they live even if it's in the middle of a city even if it's like here in new york there are this city is home to the the fastest animal on earth peregrine falcon that will be hunting off the skyscrapers not far from this very room. So it doesn't matter where you live. I've always wondered if I was really seeing those. It doesn't matter where you live. There is amazing wildlife to be found. I was like, that looks like a falcon. Then I was like, Trevor, it's a pigeon. Clearly it's a pigeon. You can't just see a falcon in New York City. Yeah, you can. But you can. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Huh. So, yeah. Give us a tip for how to sneak up on animals as you depart, like in a good way. Because when you said that, I was like, I want to get close and like, what are the do's and don'ts? Well, the most important thing is knowing your subject, knowing the animal. And I think just spending time outside. I know that sounds kind of obvious. So first be outside. Be outside. First rule, be outside. Go look. And yeah, knowing the animal and you want to know as much about it, do as much homework as you can about it, research about it. So don't just like go out there. No, well, no. Don't learn on the job. No, no, learn on the job for sure. The reason that it's good to know things or be with someone that knows things is because one, that means you've got a greater chance of actually finding it in the first place. And understanding what the heck it's doing when it's flying around or doing whatever. But the other thing is coming back to that loving them to death. You make sure that you can understand the cues that it gives off when it's comfortable with you being there, uncomfortable. So that we make sure that when we're watching animals, it's on their terms. and they are beautiful. This is exactly why I only go to like a nightclub or a bar with Eugene because then he can help me spot the situations and then Eugene will be like, whoa, whoa, whoa. He's interpreting the wild bucks. Yeah, Eugene goes like, ah, don't say hi. Calm down. Don't make eye contact with that guy. Absolutely. Shake your hips here, Trevor. And then, you know, that's how the... Because before me, he used to just feed on carcasses. Sort of works as an analogy I made a terrible mistake engaging you at all It was nearly really awesome Thanks so much No man, but thank you, thanks for indulging This was fun man This was great Thank you so much for listening. Join me next week for another episode of What Now?