Episode 361: The 5 Principles of Parenting with Dr. Aliza Pressman

It's hard to concentrate when you're worried about your health. It can feel like there's a wall between you and the rest of the world. Like you can't be fully present. Hello, AXA Health. How can I help? At AXA Health Insurance, we build our teams with people who care. So when you need us, we're here to support you. For cover that cares, search AXA Health Insurance. Pre-existing conditions are not covered. Hey friends, welcome to the Raising Boys and Girls podcast. I'm Sissy Goff. And I'm David Thomas, and we're so glad you've joined us for this conversation. Let's dive in. Dr. Aliza Presman is a developmental psychologist with two decades of experience working with families and the healthcare providers who care for them. She is the author of the New York Times bestselling book, The Five Principles of Parenting, Your Essential Guide to Raising Good Humans, and the host of the award-winning podcast Raising Good Humans. You all, this is going to be a note-taking episode. So go ahead and grab some pen and paper and stick around to the end with this incredible conversation around motivation, three-quarters of the way through that I loved her wisdom in that moment, and a thousand other takeaways that just are going to stay with me. So enjoy this thoughtful conversation with our friend, Dr. Aliza Presman. We do need to say before we get started that we had the privilege of sitting and listening to you at an event through META, and both were blown away by your heart for kids and parents, your wisdom, your encouragement to everyone in that room, and immediately started talking about how much we wanted to have you on the podcast. And so we have wanted to do that for all this time, so it is such a gift to get to sit down and talk with you about your work, about your book, all the things that you're doing, your amazing podcast. And so we're going to jump in to start with the book, and we would love for you to talk about in The Five Principles of Parenting, you talk about five principles, relationship, reflection, regulation, rules, and repair. Would you give us a brief overview of those, why you chose them, and why you believe they're important, particularly? Absolutely, and thank you so much for your kind words and so kind. I, okay, so I chose the five principles for The Five Principles of Parenting. Well, obviously I chose the principles before the title, but I chose them because they're rooted in developmental science. They're not trendy. They're replicated for decades, first with developmental psychology, and then with neuroscience. And so it felt like, okay, we're not, this is, what are the real, like, what are the real and important scientific principles that are highly linked with resilience, that are in the control of the adult, so you don't have to ask anything of your kids, and, or your partner. Really, it's just you, because that's the only person you can control anyway, if that, on a good day. And that it's so highly linked with resilience, totally the onus is on the adult to move through these principles, and it was so highly replicated research, it wasn't like, this is a trend right now, it's like, oh no, this has been really, really, really important science for decades, and only getting more and more clear. So it felt like that was my, what really matters for us as adults, as parents, and that if you zoom out those principles, like if you just think to yourself, I'm gonna pick one of those to really focus on this week or this day, you're doing really well. And so relationship is just a very, well, I chose our words so that we could all remember them, but relationship could mean connection, attachment, relationship, attunement, whatever speaks to you, but ultimately we know that every child needs one adult, more than that is fantastic and icing, but one adult with whom they can feel safe and secure and connected, and that relationship in and of itself moves the categorization of toxic stressors into the category of tolerable, which we know can bolster resilience. So the fact that a relationship with one adult can be as powerful a buffer for kids who are experiencing the really hard, unrelenting stressors, to me is like, oh my God, I don't, it just relieves the adult or at least me from feeling like everything is just gonna ruin our kids, because I do hear that a lot, like a scenario followed up with is this going to traumatize my child? And usually by the way, the scenario is not remotely traumatizing. The scenario is like kind of more in the category of already tolerable or positive even of a stressor to exercise those, I could do hard things muscles, but sometimes even when it's absolutely devastating, it is a great reminder that investing in that relationship can really buffer the impact of the toxic stressors. Then reflection felt like an important but less maybe exciting principle because it requires us to kind of think back, like what did we learn about being parented by experiencing our childhood? How do we define what feels like love? How do we recognize when something's going on with our kids where it's about what they need or skills they need to develop and how much of it is just like something we haven't really dealt with in our own selves, and so we're getting a little bit more triggered than necessary and maybe something to work on? And I think having a moment of reflection, even just taking a breath and saying like if this is not an emergency, what needs to happen right now, why is this going on, what is happening inside of me, that gives the freedom and space to not react and to actually regulate first. And so regulation was so important in these five principles because we just know that being a regulated person, meaning you know how to manage your emotions, your attention, and your intention in such a way that it helps drive toward your goals, not undermine your goals. And that's not possible. You don't have that capacity when you're born. You have small capacities for self-regulation. Turning your head when somebody is giving you too much stimulation as an infant is a very, it's an intuitive way to self-regulate, but you don't have the capacity as an infant to say like, I'm totally safe. I'll just take a deep breath and cuddle myself. And so we need adults to co-regulate, to lend that regulated nervous system to a less mature one. And so I wanted regulation to be on us because so many people ask me how did I develop the skill of self-regulation in my kids? And my answer inevitably is going to be regulate yourself, then co-regulate with your child so that they develop the skills of self-regulate. And some are better at it than others. Some have this more natural temperament that is more available. And some, it's a real struggle. And of course, when it's a real struggle for your child, it becomes a bigger struggle for you. So I definitely, the second half of the book, talk about ways to, you know, the exercises to grow the skill in our kids. But the first part of it is definitely the exercises are on us. Then rules, I think of as the limits and boundaries that we set to make sure that we take our values and what is making sure that our children are safe emotionally and physically and that others around them are safe emotionally and physically, that we are safe emotionally and physically, and that that's what you focus on in terms of the rules that you set. So if you're honoring the safety of yourself and others and you're thinking about how it aligns with your values, you can care about your rules enough to keep them. Like, to me, if I'm willing to bend on the rules, it's because I don't really care enough. And then why did I even push it in the first place? And one of the things I think parents struggle with now in this season of the world of life is understanding that you can have rules that may or may not be particularly appealing to our kids. And also, it's okay, you can have a close relationship and have your kids be very upset by your rules because you're only doing them because they matter for your values, for their safety, for your safety and for others. So I feel like rules needs to be very much in the same conversation as relationship because you can't have a healthy relationship without rules. I'm so grateful that you're talking about those because we were just talking about how often when we're meeting with parents and we'll talk about something around the concept of rules or boundaries. And the parents' faces will just flood with relief and they'll say, really, I can do that still. So I'm so grateful. Oh my gosh. I interrupted you, Mid-Five, but I'm so grateful. Mid-Five, well, I was taking a few minutes for it, but I will say that even the language that you just used, I feel like I hear that a lot of like, oh, I can do that. Like I'm allowed to. Yes. And I'm like, yeah. In fact, we know it's a much safer feeling that there's an adult who feels capable and allowed, you know, to set these rules. And then for when it all is terrible. And we make our own mistakes. We disconnect. We reject. We lose our cool. We repair. And the science of repair is so beautiful because it gives permission, not just permission, but I think inspiration to believe in the power of that reconnecting after discord and how once you learn that that's not end of days, that you can have moments where your kids are mad at you or you blew it or they blew it, that relationships remain strong and intact. And over time, when you have enough of those experiences, you don't wonder if love's going away because you made a mistake. You don't have to worry about that because you know that it's constant. And so that was kind of, I thought, oh, all of those things, the work is on us. We're not asking anything of anybody else. And it's so powerful and so highly linked with resilience and our kids that it felt like worth kind of thinking, okay, I don't need to know the exact script or the exact thing that has to happen in this moment. I just think like, have I, you know, cultivated a close relationship? Have I reflected and given a minute so that I can regulate? Do I have rules that align with my values and the safety, emotional and physical safety of self and others? And if I blew it, did I repair? And that's doable. Yes. Yes. Okay, I need to confess something. Patches staged a silent protest this week. A protest? She could not get settled in my bed circling, sighing dramatically, flopping down, getting back up. And then I realized I had washed the bedding and forgot to put the bowl and branch sheets back on. Do you have some entitlement to work through? Yes. In her defense, I get it. She's got great taste. And here's the thing. Most people keep their bedding way longer than they should. 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Well, I'll tell you one thing that I think is fascinating is every time I've talked to someone who's in a different field, recently I spoke to an organizational psychologist who was talking about being a leader in the workplace and status and how it's really linked with other people feeling like you are doing something good for them, that you've got their back, so to speak. And also that you're competent just to be able to, that you are really strong at what you know how to do and that you kind of have everybody's back. And I was thinking, I had the same kind of realization when I was speaking with a neuroscientist, they were talking about something about the brain, but essentially the message was quite similar to this idea of warmth and limits. But it's just different languages in different fields. And what I think is so cool is that we know in child development, the most important thing is like the relationship and the rules kind of living together, close connection with appropriate boundaries. And it's the same in every field. And so I was really interested over the years. It's almost always the same thing. It's that like we have different ways of articulating it, but the science is kind of the same in every context about human interactions. And so I really love hearing from people from different fields and learning their approach and the language that they use, but also feeling that sort of very cool confidence that this is so robust, it gets translated in so many different ways and we come back to the same thing. Those essential truths, yes. Well, so as from your vantage point as a researcher and psychologist, we would love to hear you talk about how you feel like kids have changed over the years. You know, it's funny. I know that right now there's a lot of fear and panic that kids are just, they've lost childhood, that technology is kind of destroying everything and that kids today don't have relationships and they don't, you know, there's just like a fear about kids today. And for the most part, there's even this, there's some research saying that IQ is stabilizing or dropping for the first time in generations, which there are different interpretations of that. I mean, that's a big good sound bite on social media. But when you really look at the data, it's kind of confusing because also we measure it differently now. We look at things differently. There are different contexts and, you know, like staying stable has kind of started to happen before we even had technology at the level that we have it now. There's also some information that attention skills have gone down, down in the last couple decades. On the flip side, kids are still generally speaking, developing exactly as they used to and adults are having similar tensions with them. And we do romanticize days past all the time. Like if I were a young person watching older generations talk about how great it was in the 70s and 80s, I would just be like, what are you talking about? Like, first of all, like, let me look at the history books. There were a lot of problems then too. It's just that it's so in your face right now. Like it's just more in your face. So I'm sort of of two minds. Like part of me does feel like kids have, you know, they have reduced attention spans. They don't like to be bored and we don't like to let them get bored. And it's such an important skill. We don't like them to be upset because we think it undermines our relationship with them. And so we kind of fix things a lot. I think a lot of the changes in kids are more subtle. It's more the changes in parents, probably. But I don't romanticize the past as much. I think we just, I definitely think that these days feel quite end of days in the world. So I could imagine that if the adults are spinning out that kids must feel very unstable just because it's like, wait, even the adults are kind of saying like, we don't have a handle on this. Sorry. So I can imagine that it's much harder to be a kid right now just for the fact that the adults that are supposed to be kind of steady are like, this never happened. In the number of times I've said to my kids, this never happens. This is very unusual. This is not something to put on your worry plate. And then like another crazy thing happens that never happens is wild. And I, you know, I can imagine just we have, we've put this generation to quite a test, but I also am a little bit more optimistic than I think a lot of people might be because I think they're amazing. Like I'm, every time I meet with any young people and I don't work with kids, but like I have four teenagers in my life and I'm like, wow, I love all their friends. Like I, I get, I see how excited they are about the future, how curious they are, how lovely they are. And I'm kind of like, wait a second. What I'm seeing in the, in the field is like in the wild is not as bleak as what you see on the news. It's a great reminder. Okay. And let's build on that because every parent wants to raise resilient kids, but thinking about some of what you just said, but we don't want to see them upset. We don't want to see them bored. We don't want to challenge them in certain ways. What would you say actually builds resilience and capability in kids over time? So I tried to divide this up in my book by, by an acronym just because I try to make things easy. And so I, I kind of also distilled the science down to games, gratitude, autonomy, motivation, empathy and self regulation. And to me, those skills and related skills that don't fit nicely into the games acronym are really buildable. So I think like the skills you can actually do something about to grow are really highly linked with resilience and something in, you know, that we can manage. And they're good for us too. I mean, everybody does better when they have a sense of gratitude. Everybody does better when they have a sense of agency that autonomy, supportive parenting really helps kids feel like, I've got this, like there isn't somebody who's looking at me saying, you don't, I'm going to do this for you. And motivation is, you know, I, I struggled with this because I don't want it to be like achievement pressure, but just, and it doesn't have to be motivation to be one type of person looking toward the future. But I do think like caring about something that is hard and requires a step beyond just enjoying yourself is really confidence boosting. And then empathy feels like if you can, like, especially in this AI world, like if you can hone in on some of these, actually all these skills that are very human. It really gets you outside of yourself and like the naval gazing and the, the me me me. And it really helps think about like, what's the experience of the other person? Because I think one of the things that we struggle with, especially when it comes to discipline or resilience or any of the things that sort of ask something of our kids, I think we struggle with, hmm, I, I don't want them to experience this discomfort. I don't, I don't like that for my child. This, they don't like this. I'm not going to make them do it or, you know, anything along those lines that just sort of feels like I'm, I think I'm just like respecting their wants and hopes and needs. But maybe I'm just sort of like not putting them in a position to see that they can do things even when they don't feel like it that minute. That they're not the only person in the room that even if they did want that particular toy, their friend also wanted it. And like, how do you balance making sure that your kid has a voice with also making sure they help other people have voices. And that I think has been a struggle in sort of modern parenting of like, no more wallflower kids and no more kids who don't ask for what they want. And I feel like, yes, and Yes. I don't mind if a kid is like, highly sensitive and attuned to what other people want. And maybe they say, you know what, you can have this toy. I don't, I feel like good on that personality too. We need lots of, we need the takers and we need the givers in the world. Yes. So empathy really, I just think it's, it's also in a world where everything is so extreme and polarizing. Boy, would that be effective. And then self-regulation, just like for us, I think growing that skill in our kids, my Lord, it's so, it's so much more impactful than IQ or anything that we think that we have any power over. But self-regulation, we can really help kids grow. Yes. Thank you. You know, we are firm believers that we all need a little more laughter and a whole lot more grace. And if you are raising a child with ADHD, dyslexia, autism or another learning and thinking difference, you know how intense some days can feel. The advocacy, the school meetings, the meltdowns, the moments when you wonder if you're getting any of it right. If that hits home, we recently found a podcast we think you'll really appreciate. It's called Everyone Gets a Juice Box for Parents of Neurodivergent Kids. Check out a few episodes, including one about parenting regrets after an ADHD and autism diagnosis and another about how, quote, fine isn't always fine when it comes to dyslexia. 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I'm going to talk about the first question that we get, which I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, from a parent who feels panicked is, but how do I know when to step in, when to step back, what's too much? And I think all of that is expressing their fear about stepping back. But what would you say to that question? That's such a, you're so right. I feel like that question happens daily and it really is like, okay, I get it. I'm supposed to have rules and relationship and I get it. I'm supposed to let my kids struggle, but like at what point is it too much? And do I step in? And I think this is where the autonomy support comes in. You can check in your head. Like, can my child do this for themselves? If they can, I'm going to let them, even if they don't like it. Like if they're capable and it's just like, I don't want to put my clothes on or I don't want to, you know, do the dishes or I don't want to fill my water bottle. Yeah. Like let them, even if they don't like it, that's okay. It's like a positive stressor. I have to do something I don't want to do in order for me to grow. And then I think there's the second part of that, which is guide and encourage them to do things they can almost do. So you sort of show them, you know, something they can almost do and you like inspire them, but you still kind of have to help them. And the middle of that is, you know, help scaffold them when they can, when they can do something with just a little bit of, you know, when you did the first step or you walked them through the steps or you reminded them. And so I think you can know if it's too much if, or rather you can know that it's too far if they aren't capable. Like if you're like, I don't know that they can do this, then I would say scaffold, like step in a little bit. But if they can do it, they don't have to like it. Like I think they can, they can feel it's uncomfortable. You know, you wouldn't have them climb a mountain if they've never climbed a mountain before, but if they know how to walk, like you can still let them take a nice walk. And over time you start to realize like what they're capable of. And I think also testing yourself, like what can I handle? Because part of this is about the parents. Like they might say, well, my child is capable of this, but I'm not capable of hearing them distressed about it. Then you have to say, okay, well, what am I capable of? Yeah. And you stretch yourself a little bit. I mean, it's not that dissimilar to sleep training where if you decide you're up for sleep training, which not everybody is, which I totally, I think that there's no controversy in the science about sleep training. If you're at a certain point in development and you need a little time to be left alone to cry to fall asleep a couple of times, it's not, it's in the service of having good sleep. But there are going to be some parents who are like, there's absolutely no way I can hear my six month old cry. I'm not doing it. And so for them, I'm like, don't worry about it. Just hold them, but be a little bit less lively when you are. And then sit down next to them in the crib and hold their hand. Like you don't have to do, you do what you can manage without being totally distressed, but slowly move out of the room. It probably will take longer, but like you have to know what you can manage. For some parents, they're like, I'm so tired. I can hear my baby cry for 20 minutes if this is just a one and done and then they're going to get better at it. And so I kind of feel like it's not that dissimilar. You have to see what can I tolerate and go from there. Now, obviously we're not talking about abuse and neglect and we're not talking about hours and hours. We're just talking about, you know, this little bit of distress and knowing that they're okay. They're safe. And I guess the other thing I would tell parents is like, what is your alarm bell saying? Because is it like, is it a real or is it an imagined threat? Because your child's distress and discomfort can be very scary and threatening feeling or it can just be uncomfortable. If it's just uncomfortable, but you know, I could take a breath and tell myself they're safe. They just are. It's like a moment of discomfort. I feel like we have to learn to tolerate that. But if we're like, actually they seem in danger, then of course we intervene. Thank you for that. Okay. A lot of parents today feel like they're getting it wrong. What encouragement would you offer to parents who want to raise capable kids but sometimes feel overwhelmed by all the pressure and the noise? Well, I mean, if it's a self-selecting group listening to this podcast. So like, I'm not worried about a single listener. That's great. You know, like you've already shown that you're curious and that you're open and that you're up for doing right by your kids and that you know that you're going to make mistakes. But you're still, you're there. So I'm, I think for those parents that are overwhelmed, the answer is you are a good enough parent. And there's no way that your kid isn't getting massive benefits from the fact that you care and that you're trying to pay attention to what is helping them flourish. And it doesn't mean that you have to get it right all the time. It's just more often than not. It's a lower bar than, you know, getting an A in school. It's a much lower bar. We need to be good enough. And that's actually much better parenting than perfect. Because I just think about like the burden that is having a perfect parent. Like if you could, it would make you think that you're supposed to be perfect. When you grow up and what a devastating realization when you grow up and you're like, I'm so, why am I such a mess when mom or dad was just like, they really had it all the time. Like that's just not healthy. So for overwhelmed parents who are sitting listening to this podcast, you've got this. And for parents who are like struggling with how much information to consume, what's helpful, what's not. I think it's listening to your nervous system. Like how do I feel when I'm listening to this advice? Does it align with my values or does it feel like that's weird? Because I don't think there's a piece of advice that's good enough or important enough to be worth making you feel nuts in your stomach about. Wow. So helpful. No, such a great reminder. Well, so for anybody who hasn't read your book, hasn't listened to your podcast yet, which both we would recommend wholeheartedly. Where can they find and follow along with everything you're doing? I have a podcast called Raising Good Humans. And then confusingly, I have a book that is called The Five Principles of Parenting because somebody else wrote that other book. And I'm on Substack. I have a free Substack newsletter, Dr. Aliza Pressman.substack.com. So I sort of wanted to be able to reach parents on my Substack. We also have a monthly meetup for just like casual Q&A. So I tried to just provide different ways for, you know, we all take in information in different ways and feel supported in different ways. So I just wanted to offer those different ways. And then I also co-founded a parenting center at Mount Sinai Hospital in New York. And on our website is a lot of free resources, not just for parents, but for healthcare providers. So those are the, those are the routes that I have to offer. And this is such a nice privilege and I'm so grateful. It's a privilege for us. It certainly is to get to sit down with you. Dr. Pressman, I want to say to you before we wrap up, I remember experiencing and discovering your work. And I experienced it again when we were with you in person in New York. And I'm reminded of again today how much I appreciate how steady and reasonable and thoughtful and wise your voice is in a world full of a lot of folks leading with fear in this space. And that's just not at all how you operate in the world. And I can't tell you much. I appreciate your work and your presence in this space. So thank you. Thank you so much. Yeah, I feel like I'm glad you mentioned the fear thing just because it is a way to engage people and I get it because it's really good business. But I don't think that the vulnerable time of like raising your kids is a great area to, to like poke at because we already feel enough fear as it is. But I will tell my teenagers that you said that I have reasonable attitudes. Please do. They're still like, you're the only person who takes phones at night. I'm like, I'm definitely not. You're so unreasonable. Well, thank you for that last encouragement for every parent and adolescent who's listening and is breathing more deeply. Yes, stick with it. Yes, indeed. We are so grateful for your time. David, what a team we have that we get to call friends who help make this podcast possible. Chris Sterrett, our engineer. Our management team at KCH. And we are thrilled to be a part of the That Sounds Fun Network. Our music was created by the insanely talented Dave Haywood of Lady A. And if this podcast felt helpful to you, please consider subscribing, liking, sharing all the things. We are grateful for you and cheering you on always.