Keurig: The K-Cup invasion

Coffee is everywhere. It's by most measures the second most popular beverage in the world, just right there on the list after water. But if you've had coffee, you've almost certainly had terrible coffee. There's a machine out there, though, that promises that not only will you never have a bad cup of coffee again, you'll hardly have to do any work to make it. From the Verge of Vox Media this is Version History, a show about the best and worst and strangest and most important products in tech history. I'm David Pearce and today, one cup at a time, it's the story of Keurig.

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0:41

All right, we're back. It's time for some coffee. I've already had too much coffee and we're going to drink coffee in this episode. It's going to get very, very, very intense. Joining me in the studio, Melissa McCart, the Northeast editor at Eater. Welcome.

2:16

Thank you so much for having me.

2:27

Tell me about your current coffee making setup. You wake up in the morning, what do you do?

2:28

I get on an app and I order coffee, to be honest. But If I'm going to make it at home, I do Bialetti, either single or double. I like the ritual of it. I like watching it burble over. I like whipping a little bit of milk. But I have French press Keurig.

2:33

A pot just full of options.

2:50

Exactly.

2:51

But instead you just order coffee. I respect this. I also do that too. I get. I have a. I have a giant bag of beans that arrives at my house once a month. And I. They have started to pile up because I'm in a real coffee shop phase and it's not going well for me. Also joining us, Morgan Eckroth, the US Barista champion and a creator and a barista. Welcome to the show.

2:52

So glad to be here.

3:11

Morgan, this may be an unfair question to ask you as somebody who does coffee in so many directions for a living, but, like, you wake up, it's not a work day. You're just making coffee to make coffee or not making coffee as it gets. What. What's your coffee routine?

3:13

Yeah, I'm like a classic V60 pour over person. That's. I love espresso. I love filter coffee. I love all the fun, wacky ways to make coffee. But, like, average day, I'm just. It's me and my pour over and my little kitchen scale.

3:27

I respect that.

3:40

Awesome.

3:41

I had a long run of being a Chemex guy.

3:41

Oh, yeah.

3:44

Because Chemex to me felt like right in between. This is upsetting to say out loud, but I don't have the patience to be a pour over person. It's just. It's one tick too long. I'm like, I would like to be drinking this already.

3:44

I used to be a restaurant critic before I took the job at Eater, and the last thing that I was willing to be fussy about was coffee. And so I was, like, proud to be, like, an egalitarian bodega coffee person. So I think my tolerance for bad coffee is very high. So let's bring in the Keurig.

3:57

So, okay, so this, this is the right headspace to be in. Coming into talking about the Keurig and the backstory of Keurig, which I kind of knew nothing about. This. This machine has just sort of like, been in the world for a while. Turns out to be really fascinating. And it starts in like, the. The 1980s, basically with these. These two guys, John Silvin and Peter Dragone, who had been roommates at Colby. They got other jobs and then they were just sort of out in the world, and there's this, like, mythological startup Story. Everybody has a sort of story to tell about themselves and it's only ever half true. But the half true story of where this came from is John Sylvan has a job. He's at a company called Analog Devices, which sounds like a made up name of a company, but sure. And one of the things he had to do was pay the coffee vendor. That was he had to like round up money from his co workers to pay the person who brought them coffee. And he hated this job. It was a super annoying thing to do to have to go around and, you know, harangue his coworkers for money. And also the coffee was trash. Like this is. This is office coffee, which has since time immemorial been horrible.

4:16

It's like a requirement or something.

5:21

Yeah, it's like the best case scenario is somebody who knows how to make coffee makes a good pot of coffee and then it sits for several hours and burns. Oh, yeah, right. That's like, that's as good as it gets. The worst case scenario is somebody who doesn't know how to make coffee, dumps a bunch of crap into a coffee maker, makes a horrible cup of coffee, and then it sits there for several hours and burns. It's just bad times everywhere.

5:22

Yes, absolutely.

5:44

So John has this epiphany where he's like, what if I could solve this whole problem? What if there was a better way to make coffee at work that would make it make the pots better, it would make the drinking experience better, it would make the whole thing better. So he quits his job, goes home to his Boston apartment and starts experimenting. And from what I have come to understand, you should imagine like a mad scientist very nearly blowing up his building over and over and over and over again as he's trying to figure out what to do. And he lands very quickly on this idea of like, what if there was just a little capsule that you could take and you could put it, you could put it in a coffee maker and it would do something and then you would have coffee.

5:46

A true black box.

6:25

Exactly. And there are a million complicated questions inside of this. Morgan, I'm curious if you can just explain from like a very basic sort of coffee making principle. It seems like everything about this idea of like, take a capsule of coffee, shove a bunch of water into it, magic happens. Delicious coffee on the other side is just like complete anathema to how we actually think about making good coffee.

6:27

Sure. Well, you know, good is an interesting, an interesting word because it's so very dependent person to person, but it's like the. The idea kind of makes sense in the sense that we have, like, all of these variables we got to play with. With when you're brewing coffee. It's like you have your solvent and then you have the soluble product, which is the ground coffee. And you get to play with temperature, you get to play with time, how long things brew for, and you get to deal with pressure. And like, every single brew method that we do is basically just like, tweaking these different elements. And so when you're trying to brew coffee, like, really, really quickly, you have to increase pressure, you have to increase temperature. Like, there are ways to do it. But tweaking all of those variables for the sake of, like, one thing, which is time always leads to, I'll call it like, changes in the final flavor profile. Like, you're going to get a different result. You're going to get a different result by tweaking all of these. It's not like there's a. There's a one answer that's going to come out at the bottom of this machine.

6:54

Changes in the flavor profile seems such a. Like a great euphemism for terrible coffee. So John is making all this stuff. He eventually brings in his friend Peter, who had been working at Chiquita, the banana company, to help him out. Gives him full partnership. So they become 50, 50 partners in this company. They name it Keurig, which apparently comes from the word excellence in Dutch. Both Travis, our producer, and I ran this down, and I would say the truth of that is like, nyeh.

8:00

Okay.

8:27

It's like quotation marks for us, sort of.

8:27

Yeah.

8:30

We're like, we're near it. I would say aspirational. Yeah. And he, he also said at one point that he picked that name because everyone likes the Dutch, which. Sure.

8:30

Wow.

8:43

You know, that's. That's my, like, first impression. Which is very positive.

8:44

Yeah, exactly. And so, Morgan, you mentioned pressure. And it turns out one of the big things they had to figure out this whole time was pressure. Because like you said, one way to make coffee fast is to vastly increase the pressure that you put on the beans and the water. And this, this sort of, this process, the more you can compact it, the faster you can move stuff through. But that leads to all kinds of problems, including how do we not have this thing explode under the pressure that it's under. And they, they had a bunch of early experiments and they basically have. Either of you ever done jello shots?

8:48

Indeed.

9:21

No judgment.

9:21

Maybe just last week.

9:23

Listen, for. For science, this is what we do here. So they bought a bunch of the, the, essentially the containers that you would put jello shots in. The, the, the little plastic ones from a company that made jello shot containers. They put coffee filter paper inside it and then sealed it closed with an iron. And so this is, this is like a, essentially a makeshift little K cup. Uh, fill it with coffee and then just experiment with all the different ways to try and get water through it. Different kinds of pressure, different speeds, different amounts of water, different amounts of coffee and just spend like months and months and months dialing this thing in. And their big idea from the very beginning is to sell this to coffee distributors for essentially no money, who will then put it in offices for free. And they have this idea that all of their money is going to come from selling these cups. It's a very, it's an old school like razors and blades model. Right. You sell the razors cheap and then the blades are expensive. And this is, this is their whole big idea. This turns out to be a very good idea. But one, one thing that happens along the way and this is a, this is a true warning to everyone who drinks too much coffee. They were trying so many things and they were their own test market. Right. Like at this point you're just sitting there drinking a thousand cups of coffee a day. In 1985, John ends up in the hospital and he thinks he's having a heart attack.

9:24

It's amazing story.

10:41

And, and what actually happens is that John had caffeine poisoning, which until the moment of reading about this I did not know was a thing that exists. And he said his self professed number was that he was probably drinking 30 or 40 cups of coffee a day.

10:43

That is an incredible amount of liquid just to consume in one day.

10:55

Morgan, do you know anybody that this has happened to?

11:01

I don't. You know, when I was reading about the story prior to this, I kind of knew it was leading into caffeine like poisoning. Like I knew that was the direction we were going. 30 to 40 cups was a truly shocking number.

11:03

So I'm actually curious for your perspective on this as somebody who trans for competition, which is the only other thing I can think of that would lead you to sort of like by necessity drink a ton of coffee all the time. Yeah. So like when you're in, you're in full on sort of barista competition training.

11:18

Right.

11:34

How much coffee do you think you're drinking in a day?

11:34

You know, I, it's, it's hard to like equate it to like Cups necessarily. But there will be days where you get like overly caffeinated very easily. Especially here. Like we're drinking lots of espresso. But I, it was funny because I was like, I was like my guy there. We can, we can find ways to salt. You can spit the coffee out. We, there's, there's elf reading.

11:36

Like wine, like tasting wine.

11:54

Exactly. Yeah. I kind of love that he did this to himself. I mean it's, it's true love of the game to consume that much coffee. And testing this.

11:56

Oh my God, think of how many bad cups of coffee he drank it.

12:04

Really love of the game. I think it's exactly right. So they end up getting a patent for the idea that would become K cups, which, which becomes kind of the main thing that they're, they're going to eventually sell. Like a thing. I don't think I really understood about Keurig until starting to do this research. Is the K cup is the thing. Yeah, like the, the, the brewer and stuff is all like we have the, the first in home Keurig here. And in most ways it seems like this thing is actually extremely similar to every other coffee thing that exists. It has a place for water. It pours that water through a thing and out comes coffee. Like this actually turns out to not be the hard part.

12:07

That one time purchase too. Like in theory, that thing is going to last, you know, five, maybe 10 years.

12:42

Ideally, yeah, totally. But then K cups, even they understand at the beginning they're like, this is our thing. This is the business. This is the product, this is the invention. Spoiler alert. John in particular winds up having a lot of feelings about this thing that he invented later in his life. And we will, we will talk about those feelings. But they, they invent this thing, they patent what would become K cups. I can actually show you a picture of the patent. It's pretty cool. And it is like, it's kind of incredible how much a detail there is in the patent that is just exactly even what we think of as K cups now. But also how unbelievably complicated the thing is. They patent this thing in 1994 and there's, there's a lot going on. Making it so that nothing would come out before it was supposed to was really hard. Making it so that it would come out when it was supposed to was really hard. Keeping oxygen out was really hard because you need to be able to preserve the coffee for a long time while it's sitting in this. This is like a series of very hard problems that they think that they've solved. And emphasis on think, because it turns out they keep trying this stuff, and it keeps not working. And there's a great Boston Globe story from many years ago that details a lot of their history. And I just want to read you one section from it, because this is the moment it all kind of almost falls apart. It says a few years into the project, the Keurig prototypes were still so unreliable that whenever the founders did a demonstration for potential backers, they never knew what would happen. Early models leaked puddles of coffee onto expensive wood conference tables. The K cup filters would often split, leading to drinks so laced with grounds, they were alarmingly crunchy. During one trip to meet potential financiers in Minnesota, the founders made the mistake of checking the luggage containing their trove of homemade K cups. Once aloft, the lack of pressurization in the cargo hold caused them to burst. Sylvan and Dragon stayed up all night, creating several dozen more by hand. So this is, like, years in, this is the state.

12:48

Incredible.

14:37

It's very charming. Truly. Like, the idea of this. This. This overnight work session that had to happen.

14:39

It feels like totally Best in Show or like Spinal Tap for coffee nerds.

14:45

So what I wonder, though, is there's almost something here where it's like, why would you keep trying this thing at some point? And I kind of wonder, like, Melissa, as you think about this going back, you know, we're almost 30 years ago at this point. Is it super obvious that they're right and this is clearly a thing to do and there's tons of money in it, and if we can just crack this, it's worth it? Or are these just, like, complete lunatics who can't stop themselves from doing this?

14:50

Well, I think if we look at 30 years ago, before the rise of specialty coffee, it's totally right, because coffee was just bad everywhere.

15:14

True.

15:21

And everyone had to be in an office or some kind of place where there was, like, a person who lorded over the coffee that made it especially bad. So in theory, it seems like, this can be less bad and my life will be better.

15:22

So.

15:37

Yeah.

15:37

But then with the intersection of specialty coffee and this, then it became lunacy, right?

15:38

Yeah.

15:43

So, like, whenever Starbucks came, this is where. Morgan, you could give us the. You know, the pin in terms of the date of the rise of specialty coffee.

15:43

Yeah.

15:52

Like, once. Once we started going out for specialty coffee, that wasn't terrible. Then it just became like, what are you doing?

15:53

I thought it was most interesting, looking at the. The timing of all of this because it was like all the, a lot of the thought process and development was happening like what I would consider like slightly before, like 3rd WA took over as like the predominant like US coffee drinking movement. But then once we get a little bit further here, once we actually have like actuation of this machine to market, like it very much aligns with the rise of specialty and coffee getting so much better in cafes. I think it's really interesting to see these two happening parallel.

16:01

And it's kind of weird that they happen in parallel. It is, right? That all at once we're running towards the most convenient coffee we've ever had. Kind of quality aside.

16:34

Yeah.

16:44

And I think it is worth saying that they're, they're here. Their goal is to make better coffee. Not like for the world, but for one very specific place, which is your office, which definitely for sure has horrible coffee.

16:44

And everyone wants a different coffee too.

16:57

Yes, totally. And so, and I think it's. I would have assumed that this and kind of third wave coffee culture, like from Starbucks all the way up the chain would have run into each other, but they actually are able to exist next to each other for a surprisingly long time. Yeah, but okay, so this, in 1997, something very weird happens, which is that both founders of Keurig end up leaving Keurig. They raise some money. They first I think it's $50,000, and then I think they raise a million dollars. So they're like, they have. They're close enough and people are bought in enough to this idea that they want to make it a thing. But the investors look at this disaster of a prototype situation and say, we need to install some of our own leadership. John gets mad, doesn't want to deal with this new corporate structure of people who are watching over him. And he leaves and he makes Keurig buy him out for $50,000. They buy his half of the company for $50,000. Spoiler alert. That was a bad deal by John Sylvan. Peter, the other co founder, leaves a few months later, but he keeps his investment, he keeps his part of the company for a long time. And that ends up going quite well for him. So that's in 1997. By 1998, this new team and new leadership has actually made the thing work. They, they build a K Cup factory. They start installing machines in offices. And like immediately people start to love this thing. I say they kind of work because they actually genuinely only kind of work. They still have lots of problems. They break down, they spend a lot of their Time going to people's offices to fix. But no one who gets one of these ever wants to get rid of it because it immediately solves a really obvious problem, which I think is really fascinating. And it's. Melissa, it's exactly what you described. Everybody wants better coffee, but also everybody wants their coffee.

16:59

Absolutely.

18:46

And this seems like an insight that the Keurig folks had that winds up being really important, which is not only can we make the coffee a little more sort of personalized in that you can make it when you want it, but actually we can have different kinds of coffee for different kinds of people all in one system. The first machine, by the way, was called the B2000, which is a hilarious name for your first product.

18:47

It's so Star Trek.

19:08

It really is. The Keurig B2000, our initial launch, it was huge. Like, we think of Keurig as like this little thing that brews a cup of coffee at a time. But these old ones were more like diner coffee systems. They were big, they cost $900. You had to hook them up to a water line. These were like industrial sized coffee makers, even though they only made one cup at a time. But again, this, this thing works, right? People are into it, they continue to validate the idea, the thing continues to get better, and then the company decides it wants to branch out and get into people's homes. Again, this is not a gimme at all, really. This is like still going to be an expensive machine. It's still going to be complicated. It's a new set of things they have to figure out how to solve. People don't want to hook this thing up to their waterline, but they decide they're going to do this and we should take a break here. But my question before we do, does this idea, like, if we rewind all the way back, should we have allowed this to happen? Keurig as an offy, as Keurig as an office coffee thing. I think, like unparalleled. Good idea, right? Like made everybody's office coffee situation better. I think as we look at the long sweep of history, the in home Keurig ends up being a much more complicated thing.

19:10

Yeah.

20:20

So if, if we're, if we're going back in time, should we, should we just prevent this from happening or was this just an idea whose time has come and it was going to happen no matter what?

20:20

Oh, it's a tricky, it's a tricky, tricky question. You know, I think the, the thing I often like, think about with the Keurig and Especially when we think about, like, kind of like the pipeline from, like, you start brewing your own coffee at home, and then, like, ideally, you know, especially when, you know, for us that work in, like, especially coffee industry or, like, who operate in that world a lot, the idea is, like, people kind of have their stepping in point to making coffee, and then ideally, that is kind of a pipeline that leads them to want to drink better coffee down the kind of explore that rabbit hole. But, like, the Keurig is such a perfect machine for so many people in the sense that it's, like, wildly convenient. It was and is like such a status symbol as well, that it's like, it kind of became this stopping point where people were like, actually, this is. Actually, this is great. We don't need to kind of progress down this rabbit hole. And so there's this conundrum where I'm so wildly impressed and, like, in awe of the Keurig, but also, like, kind of simultaneously hate it. Like, it's a very glorified yes.

20:28

Yeah.

21:35

It's like, I'm so truly split on it from, like, a product design standpoint versus, like, the impact standpoint.

21:35

I mean, I also think that there's like, a sort of 1950s, like, housekeeping element to it. I mean, if you're buying K cups, you never even see coffee grounds. And I mean, I still spill coffee grounds and, like, beans and, like, make entire, like, messes of the counter. And, like, that will never be something you have to deal with. And I think that was attractive for a lot of people.

21:42

Yeah, totally. Yeah. I think to me, the part of this that always been so complicated is like, are we. Is the Keurig sort of a perfect example of us just conveniencing ourselves to death? Right. Like, have we come so far that we can't even be bothered to make a pot of coffee in the morning? And maybe that's a ridiculous way to think about it, but that is also the part of me that's conflicted is like, this is. Are we getting away from the thing that this is actually supposed to be? Because it's slightly easier to do.

22:07

Like, we're muting our highs and lows just for the sake of, like, even.

22:34

Yes.

22:39

You know?

22:39

Yes.

22:39

And there's nothing more that way than Keurig.

22:40

Yeah.

22:43

Okay, so we should take a break here. But this is. We leave ourselves here at. At 2004 when the first in home Keurigs start to ship, and spoiler alert, it goes super, super well. But we'll talk about that in a sec. Let's take a break. We'll be right back. Support for this show comes from BetterHelp. Have you ever had so many tabs open that your computer starts slowing down?

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24:21

All right, we're back. We have a new friend in the studio. This is the Keurig K Mini Go, which Travis, our producer, just brought us. It's cute and it's white and it's blinking. And Melissa, you and I are drinking some coffee.

25:03

Yes?

25:15

Morgan, I'm sorry, you can't.

25:16

It's okay. I'm there in spirit.

25:17

It seems like you have 60 or 70 different coffee machines in your immediate vicinity, and none of them are a Keurig.

25:21

Definitely not lacking for coffee brewers.

25:27

So I get out the K cup, which is a couple inches tall. It's white and round and plasticky. You could just do K Cup ASMR for the rest of the show. And I think basically every machine since the beginning of Keurig has worked the same way. You have this thing. You pull up on the handle and it pulls it up, and then you put the K cup in the. Place the hole for the K cup and you put it down and ready. I'm going to put the mic on this thing because this noise is very important. That's the thing that makes it work. Uh, and then the thing starts blinking, asking me how many ounces I want. I'm going to hit 10 because I don't want to sleep ever again. And then I have to put a mug in. Finish the one coffee. We're rebooting it right now. You put the mug under and you hit it. It's really true. Like, looking at this now. John Sylvan is right. This is just a different look of the same thing Keurig has been for 30 years. It's kind of wild, and then it brews.

25:29

It's like a leak from a rainstorm.

26:30

I know. It really is. It's very. I'm gonna point the mic.

26:31

I can hear it slightly in the background. It's very relaxing. Oh, that's lovely.

26:34

Like you're in a Japanese garden.

26:41

Just a very slowly dripping waterfall. I assume that was on purpose by the Keurig folks. They're like, how do we make this sound lovely? While you drink coffee, we have Green Mountain Nantucket Blend. And Melissa, we also have original Donut shop coffee. Regular, medium roast coffee.

26:44

So I guess my question is, shall I have the donut?

26:59

I think you have to.

27:03

It's up to you.

27:04

Yeah, I'm going to.

27:05

Coffee is a personal decision, Melissa, and I would never make that for you.

27:06

All right.

27:10

Okay. Now comes. I would say the first annoying thing about a Keurig, which is, what do you do with the K cup? Oh, and my answer is usually carry

27:11

it on the counter.

27:20

Carry a dripping one across my house.

27:21

Hot water on your hand as you.

27:24

Oh, it's toasty.

27:26

Okay, so I'm. I've chosen the original Donut Shop. Like either a combination of diner nostalgia and. Or Dunkin Donuts if you're from Boston. I'm gonna press strong, which is at the top corner. I would like a strong cup of coffee and I'm going to guess 10 ounces, even though that's probably.

27:28

Then you have to press the big brew button right in the middle.

27:53

And now there's a whirring sound and soon there's going to be the scent of coffee that's going to make it feel like it's the morning.

27:56

It does smell nice.

28:04

It does.

28:05

All right, so while, while we're brewing this, obviously not the first one that shipped. The one behind us is the first one that shipped. This is called the B100 and this is again, very funny name for your first product, but this is the one that Keurig decides to ship. They want to get it into people's houses. They spent a long time getting the size down, making it sort of simple and easy and look non threatening. It is incredibly uncomplicated, which is a big part of the deal. One thing I really enjoyed about this, and it's useful to remember that the idea of this does not exist.

28:05

Right.

28:33

Like that sounds like a stupid thing to say, but this is not an experience people had had before. This is starting to become a thing. As the original in office Keurig became so popular, other companies started to build things like this. So actually Keurig in its in home products was not that far ahead of the game in that sense, but people had not had this experience before. So people didn't actually believe that this could possibly make decent coffee. So the big marketing push for Keurig is they would actually go to stores, grocery stores, all kinds of places around the country and just sit there and make coffee for people. That was the whole marketing strategy, like

28:33

Costco and the samples, 100%.

29:09

And it was the thing that they were trying to prove to people, people was that it was good and that it was fast. And those turned out to be the two. The two things that really made Keurig work for people is, oh, I don't have to go through the process and the waiting of making a whole cup of coffee. I can go from nothing to a cup of coffee with essentially no effort and like 60 seconds. And that, that ends up being a powerful thing.

29:11

If I'm remembering too correctly, Keurig at launch too was one of the more premium models. Correct. Like this was like far and above, like more than what people were spending on their average, like home coffee maker.

29:35

Oh, totally.

29:47

Yeah.

29:48

The thing was. The thing was it was like a couple hundred dollars and it was not

29:48

even today that that feels pricey.

29:51

Oh, yeah, absolutely. So I have to say the Green Mountain smelled Delightful. When it was brewing. And this smells like burned coffee.

29:54

It smells like it burned already. It really does.

30:04

It does.

30:06

The smell in here has gotten notably worse since yours started.

30:07

I know.

30:10

Like, cheers. Morgan, I'm sorry you're not here.

30:11

It's okay. Cheers.

30:13

And it tastes like it.

30:18

See, mine's actually not bad.

30:20

That is like, I felt like I saw, like, a recoil. That happened a little bit.

30:21

It's hot. It is hot. This is ordinarily the coffee I would put the most milk in just to. It brings it down and it evens it out. But this is not the worst cup of coffee I've ever had, I have to say.

30:25

Also, this is. I mean, yours, I bet, is better, but, like, the. The strength of this is better than the one I make at home. But I have one of those fill your own beans. But I clearly am not putting enough coffee in it.

30:37

Yeah. So again, this is. This is sort of the whole idea, right? Is they try to make this an unscrewable product. And in the first one, there aren't these options for, like, do you want it weak or strong? How many ounces do you want? It's essentially just a power button and a brew button. The idea is, don't worry about it. We will handle the coffee for you. You just put in the coffee that you want, and out will come delicious coffee. This works very well for people. So this thing is immediately a hit. It gets great reviews. Lots of people start to buy it. It sort of immediately validates this whole single serve coffee thing in people's minds. And then two years after the first one comes out in 2006, Green Mountain, this company, which is one of Keurig's biggest investors and a huge coffee maker at the time, just acquires all of Keurig. It winds up valuing keurig at about $160 million, which, I would remind you, John Sylvan sold his half of the company for 50 grand. That's a tough beat. Melissa, you were saying before that one of the funny things about this story is that Green Mountain bought Keurig.

30:52

Yes. It's sort of like today you think about, like, environmentalism and Bernie Sanders, not like capitalist Keurig. Cape pods.

31:54

Right. Yeah, it's very true. So at this point, the sort of Keurig story on its own, the brewer story, moves very fast. They now come in lots of shapes and sizes. They start to have more expensive models and less expensive models. They make models that can brew a pot of coffee and a single cup of coffee. They branch out into hot chocolate and tea, they start trying to do more stuff. But fundamentally, it is still the thing that it always was, right? It is a thing that you put a pod into, you stick your coffee mug under, and it makes you coffee. The end. Then two things simultaneously start to happen which I think are very interesting. One, everybody else tries to get in this game, and the first way a lot of people try to get into this game is by making K cups that are not made by Keurig, essentially bootleg K cups. And because this is the business, right? Like, they're still selling these things and not making a huge amount of money, all of the money is in the K cups because, like, per cup, it's way more expensive to make Keurig coffee than it is to just brew a pot of coffee. But there's nothing preventing other people from putting their stuff in these machines. So other people start to do. So they're. On the one hand, this is great news, right? Like, all of a sudden, the amount of different kinds of coffee you can get in K cup form just explodes. Keurig decides to fight this in a big, big, big way, because this is the company's moneymaker. So they do essentially two things. They become kind of a patent troll. They start suing people, they start picking big fights about the patents, and they release a new Keurig with drm. And this Keurig will only brew Keurig official K cups. And this, I would say, is the first giant dent in the reputation of Keurig as not a company that cares so much about making great coffee, but is just trying to sell you really expensive K cups. This is one of my favorite sort of alternate universe moments of this story, which is if Keurig had decided not to pick that fight and close down and try to sort of own the whole experience of itself and instead had just tried to like open way up and become this like, open platform for lots of people to make lots of coffee lots of different ways. Maybe like the whole idea of single serve coffee and the way that we think about what Keurig is and the way that we make coffee might now might have changed in really cool, interesting ways. Morgan, I'm curious for your thoughts on this as like a. From. From a pure, like how we make coffee experiment, Is there a world in which Keurig sort of says, everybody make coffee in our pot the way that you want? It's just a pot, do whatever you want. And we get like a whole unbeliev range of cool kinds of coffee inside of Keurig or like, is a K cup. A K cup. A K cup.

32:05

You know, it's kind of interesting because I like, love the idea of a world where, you know, you have specialty roasters, you have like your mom and pop shops, like all able to sell their coffee in this way that everyone can experience it the same way, brewed well like in their homes. And I think because Keurig didn't allow that and then kind of like forced people to work within their systems, get really used to like the pod systems. In the last like five or six years, we've seen a lot of new, different branded brewers come out that are emulating that sort of pod system. It feels very familiar, but it targets towards that, like, higher end, more customizable market. And so I like, I feel like we're kind of seeing a little bit of like how that alternate universe would have played out now all these years later with different tech. But, you know, looking back, it's like I fully understand why they did what they did. It makes, it makes a ton of sense. But it's. I think it could have been such a, such a cool world to see everyone be able to opt into this like open source coffee brewing system.

34:42

Absolutely.

35:50

I agree. I think there just would have been something so cool. And this especially gets weird in 2012, which is when the K Cup patent expires. That's when the competition sort of explodes. Keurig starts to lose some of its shine. This is the moment there were like a million Keurig competitors out there. Everybody was starting to make weird different kinds of K cups. And then they sort of lock it down again with the drm and this becomes a big sort of reputational problem. But the bigger reputational problem, which is I almost just said brewing, and that's a pun that sucks. Which is also starting to happen around the same time, is that people are starting to question the environmental costs of Keurig and K Cups in particular. Melissa, I know you've been, you've been reading up and researching on this. Like, my sense is this becomes a huge deal and a huge problem for Keurig very quickly. Is that right?

35:51

I think so. I mean, I think that it parallels with the rise of like Instagram, for example, when there, there's more like of calling out of businesses or call out culture because it's like, it's sort of like popcorn that can't control the narrative anymore because there are so many platforms for them to get essentially called out for how they're harming the environment. And also at A time when there's an uptick of people politically and personally caring about the environment where, like, if that were at this moment where it's sort of muted a bit, that might not be the case. But just at that trajectory, it was a big deal.

36:41

Yeah. And this, this hits a really interesting point. In 2014, Mother Jones runs this story where they did math that said you could circle the globe with all of the K cups that had been produced in that year. If you just line them up side by side, you could circle the globe ten and a half times, which is a. A testament to how unbelievably successful this thing had become. It was just absolutely ubiquitous. Like, I feel, I feel like there was a time where you couldn't go into like a dentist's office, a house, someone's clinic, whatever, clinic, like any. Anywhere people sat down, there was a Keurig. It was unbelievable. Like it was just completely ubiquitous in society. And so Mother Jones runs this story and I think something about that image of that many K cups being made circling the globe ten and a half times stuck. And that number. Keurig has disputed that number many times, but I think even that the dispute says it's sort of directionally correct and has. Has haunted them for forever. And as this is starting to happen, this video comes out called Kill the K Cup. Do you guys remember this?

37:19

Yes.

38:29

Let me just play the Kill the K Cup video so you can see it. Happy birthday to you. We're in an office and there's an explosion.

38:30

Eyes lift.

38:44

What is it?

38:45

This is so wonderfully old school YouTube.

38:47

And outside it starts raining K cups. What is that thing?

38:49

I think it's one of those coffee things.

38:53

What is that?

38:55

Holy.

38:58

It's a huge spaceship. It looks kind of like a cupcake.

38:59

Oh, my.

39:02

Launching K cups.

39:04

People are crawling on the ground.

39:08

And then there's the K Cup monster.

39:11

So good. Godzilla.

39:13

I love this visual of like the army firing machine guns at a K cup monster.

39:17

I know.

39:23

Invading Earth.

39:25

The sound design is wonderful.

39:26

It's really good. And then it ends with this big Kill the K Cup before it kills our planet. Kill the K Cup.

39:28

Incredible.

39:36

This goes so viral and becomes a huge problem for Keurig. Kill the K Cup becomes this, like, trending topic all over social media. We end up with this like, long running problem. And by the way, the top comment, I think on the YouTube video for kill the K Cup says it appears to be from a YouTube account belonging to John Sullivan, the creator of Keurig. And it says, sorry, P.S. i don't use them.

39:37

Wow.

40:07

I was not 100% able to confirm that it was John, but I'm pretty sure it was, and it certainly looks like it was. In the course of figuring out what's going on here, it turns out that the big culprit here of all the stuff going on is the cups themselves are made out of what's called number seven plastic. And number seven plastic is essentially the other category of plastic. It could just mean anything, whatever you want it to be. And it turns out this kind of plastic is very hard to recycle. And even if you do recycle it, it's very dangerous for the people who have to process it. So Curie comes out and says, actually, it's not as bad as you think. Most of the parts are recyclable. And the response to that is everybody's like, well, who in their right mind is going to neatly take apart each one of their K cups in order to recycle some of the parts that are recyclable? And then Keurig also makes a case which I think is more interesting and compelling, which is that there's a really strong case to be made that pods are actually more efficient in their brewing. They use the coffee grounds more efficiently than some other ways of brewing coffee, that they, the machines use electricity more efficiently. That there are some real upsides to this. And actually this. This debate has turned out to be more complicated than I realized. But it does seem like there is. There is essentially no argument to be made that the K cups themselves are anything other than kind of an environmental disaster. And then the other thing that happens right around this same time is the Atlantic does an interview with John, the co founder, who says that he doesn't own a Keurig. He says in an interview that he had bought one to sort of take it apart and see what had changed and was surprised at how little had changed in essentially 20 years, that it was basically still the thing that they had designed. And then he was kind of like, I don't know how you'd make it better. It works. But he said he didn't have a Keurig. And then the quote from him is, it's not like drip coffee is tough to make.

40:08

Incredible. So excellent.

41:59

Yeah. Also it's at that time, so this is 2015, there were studies that estimated that one in three households in the United States had a pod based coffee machine. One in three, like this thing had absolutely taken over the world.

42:04

Yeah.

42:17

Keurig sold 9 billion K cups that year. In 2015. That one year. So John, who is evidently just excited to light this company on fire, continues in this interview with the Atlantic. No matter what they say about recycling, those things will never be recyclable. The plastic is a specialized plastic made of four different layers.

42:17

Scorched earth.

42:34

Yeah. And he ends up on this like years long apology tour, essentially saying, I regret this invention. We never should have done this. It's so bad for the planet that it was a bad idea and we never should have done it in the first place.

42:35

I mean, I've been looking at the Green Mountain container and it still says peel the lid and dispose and recycle. Check locally to recycle empty cup. Like, why would you do this for every pot?

42:48

No one. No one did, like just factually, no one.

43:00

No one.

43:04

And John was like developing these ideas. He seemed to have sort of simultaneously dissuaded himself that this was a good idea and also had some ideas about what he might do. And his big idea was take coffee and put it in a centrifuge and it comes apart. Then you take the parts and combine them back when you make the coffee. So you could use something like a ketchup foil pack. And the separate parts won't become oxidized when they're stored and transported. Then you can combine them again at the last minute while you're making coffee. I bring this up because I have this memory of a few years ago, a bunch of companies trying to find ways to do not quite exactly this, but this question of like, are there other better ways to make coffee last longer? Like, I don't know if either of you ever remember this company, Cometeer.

43:06

Yes, I was going to bring them up. Oh yeah, yeah.

43:48

Okay, tell us about Cometeer.

43:51

Yeah, Cometeer is an interesting company that does a single serving coffee and they come in these small. I believe they're aluminum capsules. They look like pods, essentially. It's a very familiar shape. But inside is essentially a frozen coffee concentrate. They brew it at a concentrated form. It's very proprietary, but essentially they're using liquid nitrogen to freeze coffee at ideally peak freshness. And then you store these pods in the freezer. And then in the morning to make this coffee, you drop a frozen pod into your cup, add hot water, and it dilutes down to that drinkable ratio. So it's like very, very similar in the sense that it takes you 15, 20 seconds in the morning to like assemble this.

43:52

Is it good coffee? What do you think?

44:36

It's pretty dang good. Cometeer, like wow. Well, it's, it's, it's very tasty. But also they have gone like, like off the bat immediately. The route of not doing a bulk of the coffee, like sourcing and roasting themselves. Like, they immediately went into the partnership and licensing category and so they opted to work with like some of the best roasters in the world specifically to put really high end coffee into these tiny, like instantaneous capsules.

44:37

Yeah. Have you, Melissa, have you ever had Common Cheer coffee?

45:08

I have not.

45:10

It's actually. It is pretty good.

45:10

Wow.

45:12

It's very expensive. I forget the price, but it is like very expensive. It is sort of painfully expensive to think of even something kind of like instant coffee. But it is, I would say, of these things that you can make with almost no effort. And in one minute, it's probably the best one I've ever had. I've not tried them all, but it is head and shoulders above Keurig for sure.

45:12

Okay.

45:31

But anyway, so I think this idea of how do we do this better? Has not died. Right. And Keurig even continues to push on this. They made promises about becoming energy efficient and recyclable and doing all this stuff. And the deadline was 2020 and they didn't meet that. And then they did meet that, but then they were legally challenged for whether they actually met that. So Keurig, I would say, has made a lot of promises which have come to varying levels of truth. And yet all the time, this company just continues to sell like crazy. They sell tons of brewers, they sell tons of K cups. The numbers continue to go up about the percentages of them in households. I mean, they have just absolutely conquered America in particular as a coffee drinking world. And actually this, this might be a good moment to pause because I think the fact that it is a mostly American thing is sort of interesting. And I wonder, I wonder if either of you can maybe try to explain what is unique about American coffee culture versus coffee culture elsewhere.

45:32

I think unlike Italy or Austria or something like that, our coffee culture has not been rooted in excellence. And it has been something that we, I mean, think about things like chock full of nuts or Folgers or whatever. I mean, if you drink a cup of that right now, you'd be like, oh my God, what is this? You know, And I feel like that's what our grandparents were drinking.

46:34

And so shout out to my father in law, he's drinking it every day.

47:00

This might be in the same, maybe slightly better category. And so I feel like Americans prize convenience over, you know, the Ritual or culture of drinking coffee and taking the time to do it and connecting with somebody else over a standing table in a cafe.

47:03

Yeah, I was gonna say too, very similarly. Like, to me, I think, like, the Keurig is very emblematic of like, just our coffee drinking culture in general, where it's. It's like, very much prioritized by, like, high caffeine, like a very like, capitalist, productivity driven society. And so you want your coffee to be very utilitarian. You want it to be fast and convenient, and you're also, like, taking it to go most of the time. Like, the US Has a. Especially when it comes to, like, coffee shops. A really interesting culture where it's like a majority of how people interact with coffee shops, especially in cities, is like, in it to go fashion, where they're getting large cups of coffee and like, taking it out into the workday immediately. Whereas, you know, a lot of, like, European countries, Italy, as you mentioned, Melissa too, like, their coffee culture is so rooted in the routine and kind of the, like, the pause and moment of having time with your coffee, rather than just like, viewing it as a tool to, like, get you to the next thing in your day.

47:21

Yeah.

48:21

And I mean, Keurig in all of those things makes perfect sense. A thing I've been trying to figure out is, like, do we blame Keurig for all of those things or is it just a symptom of all of those things? Right.

48:21

Yeah, I just think it harnessed it.

48:32

Yeah.

48:34

And Keurig makes us look ourselves in the mirror, ask, what am I doing?

48:35

Keurig is America. So. And actually to that point, that's actually a really funny way to think about what happens to Keurig over sort of the. The decade before now, which is that Keurig kind of gets a bunch of weird ideas that maybe the way that we do coffee is the way we want to do everything. So they make this machine called the Keurig cold, which is going to go and make cold beverages. You can make a Coca Cola with a Keurig, which I would argue just completely misunderstands the thing that we're doing here. This is a.

48:42

No.

49:10

That machine cost $370. It was an enormous failure, and it went away in less than a year. It was so bad that Keurig ends up refunding everybody who had bought one. Oh, my God, it was such a disaster. But there was also. There was a time when you could make soup in a Keurig. Like, they had this thing about, like, okay, we have built a system by which we can force water into stuff. What can we force water into? And that is not what Keurig is. Keurig was a coffee machine. And I think they have finally, at long last, begun to learn that there's also a bunch of weird corporate shenanigans happening. So Keurig gets bought by Green Mountain, becomes Keurig, Green Mountain, which then becomes acquired by a private equity firm and merged with Dr. Pepper Snapple, which forms the cure, the company Keurig, Dr. Pepper, which is now at the. At the kind of the moment we record this being split back into two. So Keurig has gone through this wild series of corporate mergers and is now actually going to go back out into being its own company. And the company bought Pete's and is now attempting to be kind of a coffee conglomerate under the Keurig name. So Keurig may be due for a very different run in a different direction of the coffee world, but has been through an awful lot and has just sold so much coffee along the way like this. This company, for all the mess that it's had, has continued to be a huge hit. And, Morgan, you kind of alluded to this earlier, but one of the interesting problems that Keurig has had is that their machines actually last a really long time, unfortunately. And in a K Cup world, in a world where you're just trying to sell a lot of K cups, this is largely good news. But I think the company is trying to do more futuristic things and do different things and come up with more environmental ways to do things. And they've had to find ways to be sort of incredibly backwards compatible to, like, these things that we just put in this brand new machine that Travis, our producer, bought an hour ago, will work in the very first one that they ever showed.

49:10

Oh, my God.

51:02

That's a big deal. And this ends up being, I think, a real problem for Keurig, because even if you want to move forward, you kind of can't. Because if you stop selling the K cups to all the people who bought the old Keurigs, you risk losing a customer entirely. And all of the money you're making is from these K cups. So they've put themselves in kind of an odd position. And I bring this up because the place I want to leave this story, before we get into the version history questions is with K Rounds. Do you guys know about K Rounds?

51:03

No.

51:29

I don't know about K Rounds.

51:30

No.

51:31

Yes. Oh, this makes me so happy. Okay, so in 2024, and remember, Keurig, a Few times has had big ideas about how to do more environmentally friendly things. Right. Like, they understand that the environmental problems are a drain on the brand. They make people not want to buy or use Keurigs even. There's like, we've been sort of talking about this moral conflict of being a Keurig drinker. One of the real things is like, I am creating a tremendous amount of waste every time I do it. And people feel that. And so Keurig has been looking for ways to solve this for forever. They make a lot of complicated environmental promises. There are the reusable K cups, which I think it sounds like you've used, Melissa. And they like, that's a solution and a problem all at the same time. Right?

51:31

They're pretty terrible.

52:12

Yeah. And it's like by the time I'm grinding my own coffee and putting it in, what am I doing here?

52:13

Yes, that's exactly it. I'm like, I'm like mashing in this little thing and it's like, what, what is this?

52:18

Yeah, but so in 2024, Keurig comes out with this huge announcement and is essentially like, we've fixed it. We have come up with the new thing and it's called K Rounds. And I'm just gonna, I'm gonna play you one small part of what amounts to like a six minute long infomercial for K rounds. Okay, here it is. As we were developing the K rounds, we went back to basics, went and watched how a barista would make the finest coffee.

52:23

Baristas have tamped down the coffee before

52:50

they pull an espresso shot.

52:53

And we thought, what if we took

52:54

that a little bit further and actually

52:56

compacted the coffee enough to have it hold itself together?

52:57

That way you don't need that plastic cup anymore.

53:01

That plastic cup limited how much coffee you could pack into it, the amount of pressures that the vessel could withstand when brewing. Breaking free of that constraint, it gives us a lot of opportunity to build better and different brewing technology.

53:04

The K rounds are going to be available in an espresso shot size, a double shot size, a traditional coffee size, and even a slightly larger piece pod for a tall, refreshing, cold coffee.

53:17

So that's K rounds. K rounds are. They look like basically a little round brownie of coffee. But what it is, is incredibly condensed coffee grounds that are designed to not, like they said, not need a container, not need a shape. You can just take it out and put it in. Morgan, you're a barista. They said, they said, this is baristas. Hit me with your Reactions. What do you think?

53:28

I was fascinated by that. I was very curious when they were talking about the type. It sounds like that, like those are made at least some of them for espresso style beverages, if I was understanding that correctly. Which is kind of interesting because that's like very much not what Keurig has historically done. That's been like Nespresso's territory. One of the major concerns that I automatically have off the bat is like coffee freshness. The minute coffee starts to oxidize, the minute you have it like stored open air, like you're losing flavor quality and also like brewing potential super, super quickly. So as fun as that was, I have so many. I have so many questions. I must. But I think they're adorable.

53:49

I mean, it does like, if you. On the very surface of it, the idea seems like it sort of makes sense, right?

54:33

It appears to me in a way

54:39

so long kind of, you know.

54:40

Yes. Yeah. So Keurig showed these off in 2024 and this is a big deal. And this was part of a new system called Alta that Keurig was coming out with. And this is going to be the most all in one thing Keurig has ever shipped. This is sort of the, like the ultimate Keurig. And this is also importantly, not backwards compatible. Like, this is a, this is a break in the Keurig system. This thing has not shipped. It's been two years. There was just an update very recently from Keurig that said it is estimated to be shipping this fall 2026. I would say most Keurig watchers are deeply skeptical of that. Keurig is saying they're beta testing this, which is a very funny way to think about what you would do with a new way of making coffee. But it's out there. This is, this is apparently the big plan. Is this the thing?

54:42

Like to phase this out?

55:31

If not phase it out, at least like really move every new Keurig buyer to Kate Rounds. Like they. Keurig wants you to see this as not only Keurig being a good and better and new company, but also this is now the way that you do it.

55:32

This is kind of interesting to me because this also isn't like totally new technology or method of making coffee. I. I'm forgetting the name of the brand right now, but there is like in market currently. I believe they're a European brand that makes what they call like coffee balls. And it's that same principle of like just a compacted coffee ball that goes into their proprietary machine podless. And then brews.

55:48

Hmm.

56:13

I've never seen coffee balls before. This is awesome.

56:14

So amazing name.

56:16

So good.

56:18

Truly.

56:18

Yeah. And I do think we are. We're at this, this idea of experimen with how do we make coffee that is convenient and better? Feels like it's starting to happen. And I guess this is where, you know, we talked at the beginning about how this, this sort of third wave coffee is coming. I think Starbucks in a lot of ways is like early to identifying this idea that, oh, what if a coffee shop was a place you could go and hang out on purpose and really made a huge business out of that and then lost that thread a little bit and is now trying to get it back, it seems. But you have this huge rise in great coffee in the United States and this huge rise in ultra convenient at home coffee. And now it does feel like there is this increasing idea of, like, what if we can bring those two things a little bit closer together? That like, I don't know, I feel like I see more and more people every day being like, the AeroPress is amazing. And it's like people are willing maybe now to do a little bit of work in service of better coffee or maybe pay a little more money in service of just as easy, better coffee. I don't know, Morgan, you're the most steeped in this world of all of us. Is this. God, I keep using coffee puns by accident.

56:20

No, please, please. I love it. I'm eating it up.

57:20

This is.

57:24

Aw.

57:24

Do you see those things sort of running at each other right now?

57:26

I think so. I think like, we're seeing definitely, especially in like my, my generation, which is like a pretty young coffee drinker. Like, there's this push back towards, like, maybe more analog, like more tactile routine methods of brewing coffee. And I think that is just a little bit part of like the natural cycle of behavior. It's like we go super heavy into convenience and there's always like the reaction to that and then the pendulum just keeps. Keep swinging back and forth. But I also think quite a bit of it has to do with COVID as well. Like there was during COVID when, you know, you couldn't have like, excellent coffee at the coffee shop anymore because they were closed. There was this giant swing of manufacturers and companies making really easy, accessible ways to make truly wonderful, delicious coffee at home really easy in the same way that Keurig did. But now that coffee is just so much more tasty and better in like, every single, like, step of the supply chain. And I think that was a lot of people's and like my generation's introduction to brewing coffee at home. And so now when, you know, Keurig's kind of coming in with this new method, it's like they're already kind of written off for being an old school method of brewing. But because there's been this like, giant shift that focuses towards the home user again outside of the cafe, it's like there's just so many different options that turns out they're, they're not, they're not too hard to use. And people are willing to go that extra effort, especially if it means they get to have like a really special moment brewing their coffee. Like, there's kind of this, this reaction of like, maybe, maybe we don't want the like, go, go, go, super speed, like convenience focused coffee anymore.

57:28

Melissa, you were nodding to that. What do you think?

59:13

I feel like the other thing that's coming to pass now is that everything is becoming more expensive. And so even though we're past Covid, it feels like paying $7.16 for a cup of regular coffee is a lot of money to do every day. And I think that we'll see more people who will say, yes, coffee is a need, but a coffee shop is a luxury, or if not a luxury, not a necessity. And that we'll see people going to home brewing again.

59:16

Yeah, that's interesting. I think that's right. Okay, that's a good place to stop for this one. Let's take a quick break and then we're gonna come back and we're gonna do the version history questions and we're gonna decide once and for all if this thing's any good. We'll be right back. We're all feeling it getting pulled in a million directions. In a world full of distractions, focus is increasingly hard to find. And when you're needing to reset and refocus, you'll want something revitalizing. Pure Leaf Mental Focus is a new line of sparkling, real brewed iced teas made with naturally occurring caffeine from black tea and added L theanine to help support attention and focus without the sugar or calories. And it's available in two delicious flavors, peach and raspberry. Time for a tea break. Time for a pure Leaf. Try it yourself. Check out the product locator@PureLaf.com find us. This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the Web. Like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50 page restoration block. Or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it, ready to make anything online make sense. There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required compatibility and availability. Various 18. All right, we're back. It's time for the version of History questions. The eight questions we ask about every product to see if we can figure out its true legacy. The first one is the time matrix, which is a very simple concept that makes perfect sense to everybody and nobody ever has any questions about it. That maps idea versus time. Was this the right idea at the right time, the wrong idea at the wrong time, or somewhere in between? Melissa, I'm curious for your thoughts on where Keurig belongs on this graph.

59:48

I say it belongs in the center. The center right of right idea, right time.

1:01:37

I feel like dead on right idea, right time.

1:01:42

Not like the peak, but pretty close because people are paying more attention to coffee, as we said, and there's movement in specialty coffee and people are still at work making bad coffee. And it feels like it was like a maelstrom of possibilities.

1:01:45

Yeah, I think so. Morgan, what do you think?

1:02:06

I tend to agree with that. I think execution and long separating out kind of this environmental aspect of the K cups and all of that, I think the right time for sure. And also right idea. They were really ahead of the curve on what specifically America needed in terms of coffee makers.

1:02:07

Yeah. I'm torn on this one because I think separating out the environmental piece, you're absolutely right.

1:02:32

It's hard to split the two.

1:02:40

Right. But I think the environmental story here is so important and winds up being so important in the history of this company that I feel like I kind of want to shove it further down towards wrong idea. That it's like it got a bunch of this really right, but it got one really important piece kind of wrong.

1:02:41

Yes.

1:02:59

And like maybe destroyed the planet as a result.

1:02:59

Yeah, that makes sense.

1:03:02

They made people make horror movies about K cups destroying the planet.

1:03:03

Yes.

1:03:05

I think it can't be anything other than mostly right idea, right time. Because it did. I think if they hadn't done it when they did it, somebody would have figured out something like this a few years later. Because again, this thing where you look at your office coffee pot and you're like, this sucks. I wonder if I can do better. Surely occurred to other people and surely would have occurred to more of them after. But yeah, I feel like they just. They whiffed on one Part of it that wound up being a great business and a bad thing for the world.

1:03:06

It's like for them as a company, it was right time, right idea. For the rest of the world, it was right time. Maybe wrong idea.

1:03:31

Yes, yes, that is totally fair.

1:03:37

So I think where we have it now, which is like mostly right idea, right time with like a gentle nudge into wrong idea. This feels right to me. Are we good with this?

1:03:40

We're good.

1:03:47

That feels good.

1:03:48

Okay, cool. Question number two. Was this peak anything? I have a couple to offer you and then I'm curious if you guys have ideas. Was this peak office coffee? Have we have we bested Keurig when it comes to office coffee? I kind of don't think so.

1:03:49

For the price point, there's definitely better machines that make better coffee out there, but like, they've just built the system so well at the price point that they're at, it's kind of hard to. Kind of hard to compete with that.

1:04:00

I also feel like it so correctly matches how people exist in an office.

1:04:14

Yeah.

1:04:19

Like, this is again where I go back to the funny thing about Keurig is I think it is. It absolutely got every single thing right when it comes to your office coffee maker where like, I want coffee when I want coffee. I don't want to go get coffee just because somebody made it. And if I don't get it right now, it'll be gross and burned. I am, I am now fully in control of this thing and I can make exactly as much as I need and no more. That sort of cadence of how people make coffee feels like they got it exactly right.

1:04:20

I also feel like this is like the far end of like the dot com boom where people had like coffee and drinks and ping pong tables in their office. This is like a really remote. Well, we have this good coffee maker. Like it's like a. An every person's amenity on some level.

1:04:42

Totally.

1:04:59

And improving it. Yeah.

1:04:59

Yeah. There was definitely the startup boom where everybody was like bringing in Stumptown Cold brew concentrate, but I don't know that.

1:05:00

That.

1:05:07

I don't think we can count that next to the curate.

1:05:08

This is just like radiating out of like, at least we have this.

1:05:11

Exactly. This is better than like the gross stuff somebody made this morning.

1:05:15

Yes.

1:05:19

Also, is this peak easy coffee?

1:05:20

Yes.

1:05:22

Has there ever been an easier way to make coffee than Keurig instant? Is that even coffee though?

1:05:23

I know, I know. It's just sort of retro or something.

1:05:29

I feel like instant. Like not that one is like Actually worse or better than the other. But like, Keurig has this like. Like doing it in a machine that quickly, just like I feel like psychologically feels so much better.

1:05:35

Yes.

1:05:49

Not for nothing, Keurig also heats up the water for you instant.

1:05:49

You should heat up your own water. That's true, actually. Great point.

1:05:52

And who has the time?

1:05:54

You know what I mean?

1:05:55

I got things to do. Question number three. If you could time travel back and develop it yourself. So we're putting you in the Boston apartment with John and Peter in the 80s and 90s. Could you make the product more successful?

1:05:56

I mean, I would have wanted to have, like, met design team designing it. Yeah. Like, the design part is the part that I feel like if you make it a coveted item, that it would. And that you could essentially rotate it. Like, this is a circa 2010 and this is a circa 2020, and it's like became like a collector's design thing.

1:06:10

That's a good one.

1:06:32

Then. That would have made it cool. Yeah.

1:06:33

What is it the. Is it the mocha pot? Is that a thing that has become like a real design object that you just have in your house? Because it looks awes. But what if Keurig had pointed at that a little bit?

1:06:37

I mean, and there's so many collabs with designers and Bialetti that, you know, you can get like a fancy one, so. Absolutely.

1:06:47

I'm now imagining like a supreme branded

1:06:54

Keurig,

1:06:56

I might find that Taylor Swift Keurig.

1:06:58

It would have worked. Honestly, you're not wrong.

1:07:03

Exactly.

1:07:05

Morgan, what do you think?

1:07:06

I think, and I don't know how they would have done this necessarily. You know, it's. It's thinking about, like, the hot water, the pressure, like achieving all of those things. Plastic is the obvious and, like, easy answer. But it's like if there could have been a way to incorporate a more environmentally friendly, like, pod product early on, even utilizing like a pod system early on, that was like, easier to take apart and actually recycle. Because it's like people got trained onto just being able to toss them, just being able to get rid of them so early on that then when they retroactively introduced recycling systems, like, easier ways to take them apart. It's like, well, people aren't. People already have their systems and their ways of actioning, like, as much as you can, you know, tell them that they can do it differently. It's like we don't like to change, especially in those small routines.

1:07:07

I know. I was thinking about this too, because I think the Obvious one for me is go back and grab John by the lapels and be like, this is an environmental disaster. Do better. But it also seems like the last 15 years, since this has been very obvious to everybody that it's an environmental problem, suggests that it's a much harder problem to cleanly solve than we realize. Like, for all the ways in which it is just a ruthless corporation trying to make money, Keurig would have solved this problem already if there was an easy way to do so, because it just would have been an unassailable victory for them to do so. And so that suggests that there is not something just sitting out there that John could have picked up off the shelf that he didn't.

1:07:58

And also, there must be, like, financial demographic of, like, this is the income range of people who are making Keurigs. And if we. If we improve this product so it was more recyclable, then it would kick out X percent of people who normally buy it.

1:08:36

Totally. Yeah. They already had trouble convincing people that this was worth the cost because it's. I mean, it was, like, three or four times the price of just making a cup of coffee with Folgers beans that you bought at the grocery store. And so that was. Yeah, I think if they had made it any more expensive, it might have changed the way the thing worked at all from the very beginning. Yeah, it's a tricky one. I do like the idea of hire a designer.

1:08:49

Absolutely.

1:09:13

That's a good one. All right, question number four. The question here is, will the youth ever make it cool again? And I think this is a fun one for this one, because Keurigs are so ubiquitous, there is nothing about it at all that is, like, a fun, hipster way to make coffee. And, Morgan, I say this with all possible love. You are a hipster who likes to make coffee.

1:09:15

Oh, for sure.

1:09:36

And who makes hipster coffee? Can we make Keurig cool again?

1:09:36

You know, it's. It's hard. I think my, like, gut instinct is no. And I think the way that they could have possibly come around and made Keurig cool again is if they did have that, like, kind of history of heritage design that Melissa was just mentioning, where it's like, you know, people kind of come back around to maybe an older model of coffee system that they grew up with and has a retro feel that's different than what it looks like now. But, like, the problem is kind of right in front of us, like, on screen with the two Keurig coffee makers, where what they're selling today Looks functionally the exact same as what they were selling originally. And so you don't have that, like, kind of fun retro, like, you know, sweeping back to, like the 90s. Like it. There's no. There's none of that, like, feel to it to come back to.

1:09:40

I was thinking about this too, because one of my sort of immediate thoughts when I started thinking about this question is like, oh, update and re release the first one. Right. Like Keurig Classic or whatever. And then I looked at it, it's like, nobody would clock that as old school Keurig. It looks like every other Keurig ever made.

1:10:27

Absolutely. Yeah.

1:10:41

It's so funny. And I think if you start doing, you know, Taylor Swift branded Keurigs now, everybody just rolls their eyes at you and it's like, easy. Keurig. Not now.

1:10:42

Unless you go like the Thomas's thermos route. You know, like the. How people were collecting those Thomas's cups and found like. Like accoutrements that you're like, connecting, like, sleeves and things you connect to it and things that you collect. Like, maybe you could go that route.

1:10:52

Okay, now you're making me think. Instead of doing the Keurig machine, you make a Keurig mug and then try to make it super cool on TikTok so that all the kids want the Keurig mug.

1:11:06

Yes. Hydro flask style.

1:11:14

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. All right, well, we've solved it. Keurig. You're welcome. Question number five. This is actually a totally bizarre one for this because it hasn't changed a bit. What feature of this product should every current version have? I would argue there is something to. There is literally only one button that just says brew.

1:11:17

Like,

1:11:39

even now it's like three buttons.

1:11:41

But.

1:11:43

But there is something lovely about the fact that you. You put the pot in, you. You smack it on top, and it makes you coffee.

1:11:43

I mean, it. That strong difference. I just don't think it actually is real. I think it's like a total panacea.

1:11:49

I do wonder.

1:11:55

Yeah, I think it's just like that one button.

1:11:56

Yeah.

1:11:59

Morgan, what do you think? Anything to add? They haven't changed much.

1:11:59

Not really hard to. I was gonna say it's so hard to. So hard to answer. I mean, one button. Yeah, but it's like, not much to pull from.

1:12:01

I so want it to be a more satisfying button experience. Like a bell. Even though that would wake people up.

1:12:10

More like a crank you pull. But it's like coffee time.

1:12:16

Yes, exactly.

1:12:19

And it should say coffee time as you pull It. That's a good one.

1:12:21

I take my answer back. That's what I want.

1:12:25

Actually, we want the coffee time machine.

1:12:27

I do.

1:12:29

This is good. We can do this. I think the three of us are starting a coffee machine.

1:12:30

I know. They're gonna hire us. Yeah.

1:12:33

This is gonna be incredible.

1:12:35

Emergency fees.

1:12:36

All right, three more questions. These are the version history hall of fame questions. Any product has to pass all three of these tests to get into the hall of fame. Question number one. Did this product do something truly new?

1:12:38

No.

1:12:48

No. Interesting. Tell me why.

1:12:48

I mean, it plays with the vessels of how you're brewing coffee, but it's still just brewing coffee. You could make your. You can make your pot of coffee brew one cup of coffee if you really wanted to.

1:12:50

That is true. Put.

1:13:05

Put.

1:13:06

Put coffee in thing. Pour water on thing. Yes is not a new yes, not a new solution to a problem. Morgan, what do you think? Do you want to give Keurig more credit than that?

1:13:06

I lean towards yes. I agree that it is just making coffee, but I think the speed at which it achieves filter coffee, which is like a time frame that usually was just for espresso and filter coffee was automatically, like, a couple minutes minimum to getting it down to, like, sub one minute functionally. Like, I feel like that was. That was kind of like new. New and innovative.

1:13:16

Well, as a person who's recently brewed from a Keurig, there are some models where it takes a minute for it to heat up.

1:13:41

True.

1:13:50

So it actually ends up taking the same amount of time as a regular pot.

1:13:51

That is true. If you're starting with the water, too, then you have to go fill up the water thing. And it's like, this takes like, three minutes.

1:13:55

You know what I mean?

1:14:01

Like, I gotta go.

1:14:01

I got stuff to do.

1:14:03

Ye.

1:14:04

I can order Starbucks so much faster than I. All right, I'm gonna tie break this with. I'm gonna say yes just because I wanted to pass this test so we can keep the tension going for the other version.

1:14:05

History classic.

1:14:15

But I take both of your arguments in good faith. Question number two. Was the Keurig either remarkably good or remarkably bad? I will spoil it. I think this is where it fails the test. Cause I don't think it was either. I don't think it tried to be either. Do you know what I mean? Like, I don't think being remarkably good was actually Keurig's goal. In a way, that makes me find this product so fascinating. It's like they started from a pure simplification convenience. How do we strip away all of the ways in which you can screw this up? I never found anything where the goal is like, let's make terrific coffee. And I think that's fine. It just wasn't the goal. It's like, how do we make non horrible coffee? Was the goal.

1:14:17

Yes.

1:14:56

And it ends up. You put Keurig kind of right in the middle of every single coffee spectrum you could think of.

1:14:56

I agree with that take. I think it makes remarks. Remarkably passable coffee, which is what it set out to do. But even if they did an excellent job at achieving their goal, their. Their goal itself wasn't excellent. So that it's very hard for me to say it was remarkably good. I also like, you know, they made something that was packaged in a way that was really cool and worked really well for people. And so it's hard for me to say it was remarkably bad. You know, we have the. I think where it slips into the bad territory is when we get back into that discussion about the environmental aspects, like, that's the really bad part to. But everything else about it, it's like. It's pretty good.

1:15:01

I think what you're touching on is essentially the, like, hallmark of fast food. Which is good enough.

1:15:40

Exactly.

1:15:46

Totally.

1:15:46

Yeah. Yeah.

1:15:47

To me, I was. I was thinking about this as we were drinking the coffee. I feel like no one has ever had a cup of Keurig coffee and been like, gosh, that's better than I expected.

1:15:48

That's totally true. And that's fine.

1:15:57

Again, like, that's not the goal. I think most people have not had a cup of Keurig coffee and been like, well, that's trash. Which was the goal. And I think that fails this test, but is also sort of a success story of Keurig. Whereas, like, to go back to Cometeer, I actually have this distinct memory of the first time I had a cup of Cometeer coffee. And I had the moment of being like, well, that's better than I thought it was gonna be. And it was like an honest to God, pretty good cup of coffee out of a little round frozen thing in my freezer.

1:15:59

Yeah.

1:16:27

I have never had that feeling with a Keurig cup of coffee.

1:16:28

Absolutely.

1:16:30

It is a purely utilitarian experience, and that's fine. But it fails this test.

1:16:31

Yeah.

1:16:36

Which is fun, because I think it's gonna pass this one, which is hall of fame question number three. Did it change history? Is there a world before Keurig and a world after it?

1:16:37

Yeah, I absolutely think so. I mean, just if you're if you're saying that one in three households in America have this, I mean, it's like. It's like a vacuum cleaner or, I mean, any kind of gadget that you have in your house. It's. It's. It's wild that so many people have it. And it also speaks to what we talked about earlier is that people have multiple. I mean, it makes sense for Morgan to have multiple, like, coffee brewing items. But it's really interesting at what point we started collecting ways to brew coffee in our house.

1:16:45

Yeah, I agree. Morgan, what do you think?

1:17:15

Absolutely. I think, like, in. In a lot of ways, Keurig has kind of gone the Xerox route, where just even the brand name has become so synonymous with, like, pod coffee makers. Like, you might have an off brand or whatever, but you're going to probably still call it a Keurig or refer to it as such.

1:17:17

Total. It is. I think even people who have Nespresso machines, they're Keurigs.

1:17:33

Yeah. Yes.

1:17:37

And I'm sure Nespresso hates that. But here we are. I think that's right. Yeah. And I was thinking about this as we were talking. Like, is there. This has to be on the level of, like, an oven and a stove, as when you walk into somebody's kitchen, you immediately understand what those things are like. It is that ubiquitous, particularly in American culture, that I suspect the sort of brand recognition has got to be close to 100% that, like, you know what the thing is when you see it.

1:17:38

Absolutely.

1:18:04

Which is. Which is a remarkable achievement again, for better and for worse, as it turns out. All right, Keurig, you missed out on being in the hall of Fame, but only by a little. And you've made me very sweaty, which

1:18:05

is why you didn't. I also feel like I should walk my no back.

1:18:15

No, I. Hold strong on that. Hold strong on that.

1:18:20

Yeah.

1:18:22

Hold fast. I think you were right.

1:18:23

Okay.

1:18:24

I think not getting in, but only missing by a little is the right choice.

1:18:25

Okay.

1:18:29

Totally passable. Which feels on brand for this.

1:18:30

Okay.

1:18:34

It did fine.

1:18:35

It did fine.

1:18:35

If there's ever a wing of the Virgin History hall of Fame, that is, like, pretty good. It makes it in with flying colors. The good enough hall of Fame.

1:18:36

Yes, exactly.

1:18:44

Will be branded Keurig. All right, we are done here. Thank you, Morgan and Melissa. This has been tremendously fun. Thank you both so much.

1:18:45

It's been great.

1:18:52

This has been a blast.

1:18:53

You can follow all of Melissa's stuff at Eater. You can follow all of Morgan's stuff. Morgan drinks coffee. Every platform, everywhere, everywhere, every right. You're also training for a barista championships?

1:18:54

Yes, I am. The 2026 championships are happening in June, so this is either for me it's before, but maybe for you it'll be after.

1:19:04

Best of luck. We're very much looking forward to it. We're rooting for you.

1:19:13

Exactly. Cheering squad over here.

1:19:16

Appreciate it.

1:19:18

We will be there. Thank you all for watching and listening. And as always, the best thing you can do to support all of this to make sure we get to keep buying old weird gadgets on ebay is to subscribe to the the verge theverge.com subscribe thank you for watching and listening. We'll see you next time. Version History is a production of the Verge and the Vox Media Podcast Network. It's produced by Victoria Barrios, River Branson, Eric Gomez, Owen Grove, Brandon Keefer, Travis Larchuk, Andrew Marino and Alex Parkin. Our Editorial director is Kevin McShane. Studio support from Matthew Heffern and Joe Nevris. Our theme music is composed by Brandon McFarland. You can follow the dedicated version his History podcast feed for all of our episodes as soon as they arrive. And you can watch full episodes on our new YouTube channel version history Podcast. And to support everything we do and get access to this and all of our other podcasts ad free. Become a paid subscriber to the Verge. Thanks. Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile.

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