Serita Jakes on Marriage, Grief & Surviving Life’s Hardest Chapters | NXT Chapter with T.D. Jakes

I was petrified. I was petrified as soon as I could tell that something was dramatically wrong with me. I dropped everything and hobbled across that stage to you and got in your face to see where you were and what was going on. And you looked at me but you didn't see me. You weren't looking at me. I was growing up. Hello everybody, I'm T.D. Jakes and I want to welcome you to this week's podcast of Next Chapter. Every author knows that the first few chapters make the difference in how the rest of the book goes. If you don't have the reader in the first few chapters, you're in trouble. Every builder knows that if the house doesn't have a stable foundation, you're also in trouble. Every parent knows that the formative years of your life have a lot to do with how you process, how you think, and how you develop. So we're going to explore formative years. We're going to deal with Next Chapter's. We're going to deal with how there's a carryover between then and now and I have a guest that's going to blow your mind. She is none other than the first lady of my life. She's the mother of all my children. She is a very powerful, prominent, thinking person that I really enjoy and really, really love. Would you love? Some reading takes. Chapter number one, the coal mine is daughter. You know, I was thinking when I introduced it like that, I was thinking in my mind. How do you think being raised a coal mine is daughter in the hills of West Virginia in a rural area and being raised by your aunt and uncle most of your life? How do you think the values that they instilled in you stay with you now or help you to develop to where you are now? What's left, what's thrown away, what did you have to evolve from? What makes you you? Interesting question. I was looking forward to being interviewed by you. I thought this is going to be fun. I don't think I've been interviewed by you since you sort of proposed. When I think about my beginnings as a coal mine is daughter, I think somewhere in my heart I remain a coal mine is daughter of those fundamental community values that were instilled in me where my neighbors were important to me. My uncle was a coal miner, my daddy was a coal miner, my best friends fathers were coal miners. My best friends were cricket, Gracie and Elizabeth. In our community there was a white camp and then there was a colored camp. I was in the colored camp, cricket and Elizabeth were in the white camp and both of their fathers were in the coal mines with my uncle. Whenever there was an emergency in the community all of the women would go toward the coal mine and the men would be coming out and all of them would have sit all over their faces. I couldn't tell my uncle from Gracie's dad or Elizabeth's dad. I think that those values that were instilled in me in that community remain with me now because I realized that their father was just important to them as my papa was to me. None of us had much, we all ate beans, we all shocked at the company store, we all had the same dresses. I didn't really ever think that I was any better or any less than anybody else. Now, 70 years later I feel that those same fundamental foundational truths are important to me that I see everyone with the same opportunities, the same tragedies, the same livelihood, the same thing that made me laugh, the same thing that made me cry still makes me laugh or cry. So I think that being raised by them in that community gave me a sense of community within myself that I still seek. You know, that's really interesting. To the other of you that don't know what a coal mine is like, when you come out the coal mine everybody's black. You can't tell one from the other Asian and doesn't matter where it's burning. Everybody comes out, they're covered with coal dust and they all look the same. And so when my wife talks about that sort of thing, it changes your perspective on how you see people and to get shut down in the coal mines. And the mines cave in and everybody's out there worried everybody's praying everybody's singing songs. Everybody's trying to encourage each other. We've faced calamities and disasters together and it had a lot to do with how we perceive. But let me tell you something, you are a long ways from Kansas now. You know, you were long ways from our poke I should say. And you're long ways from the coal mines. And you had to adapt over and over and over again as we got on television as we got interviewed on TVN first and then CBN and then went to all types of networks and you find yourself at all types of evening events and bylays and situations like that. How did you flex because when we talk to people about next chapters, the big fear that they have is am I ready for what's next? Oh my. How do I flex? I spend about 20 minutes in the bathroom hyperventilating and being nervous and sweating and then I come out and I think still. Foundationally, I'm still the same person. Yeah, but the opportunities have expanded my horizon and my world of view. And so exposure and opportunity kind of gloss the coal over. And she's becoming somewhat of a diamond. And I think so in the rough. I think, but I do believe that still those fundamental truths gave me the opportunity. I think that if I had been raised without an outhouse in the backyard, you know, I would have come into this thinking, well, you deserve this. But in the back of my mind and in my heart, I feel like what an opportunity for this coal miners daughter. And so I find myself trying to encourage other women not to despise small beginnings and not to feel like that that's the end of their story that the coal can evolve. And that you can still have friends in your life that will be concerned about as much as you are. And I find that now as I work with the community of women within our ministry, I find out that we have a common goal. There's a thread. And whether we're mothers or we want to be mothers or if we're grandma's empty nesters divorce widows. There's a thread of femininity that I like to continue that little scarlet cord where every woman gets to hold on to, you know, one another and don't let her drop. That's how I feel. Well, I think that's a good thing because today some of that femininity is compromised for opportunity. But you have been able to hold on to your femininity in the midst of the opportunities that face you. Some people sacrifice their femininity to fit in with the good old boys club. And they have to sometimes he feel like they have to, but you have managed to hold on to your femininity and be yourself. Be your honest self, even now. Even until now. I was walking around when we were getting ready for the show this morning and I thought, Oh, yeah. I thought, oh, man, I don't want to be on the camera. Even to this day, I forget that about you. Because we have been married. Don't forget it. Yeah, I still forget how nervous you get before I would be the one that had to speak. Okay. And every time before I got up in the pulpit to speak or on the stage or platform or went to a business, I mean, she has to go to the restroom. Yes. And I thought, what is wrong with her bladder? It never occurred to me that she was nervous for me. Yes. But I've come to know that and I forget it sometimes, but thanks for the reminder. Yes. Do you think that comes from the simplicity? There was a drawbread you had to go across to get to her. It wasn't a drawbridge. That's fancy. That's a swinging road bridge. Swinging road bridge. There you go. Drawbridge would have been really. Yeah, drawbridge would have been like a castle. Yeah. Yeah, it was a road bridge and it was shaking in the middle when you walked across it. Yeah. I mean, this is country. Across the creek. Yeah. And I think that's some of what we had in common. We both started. We fairly meager beginnings. I lived in the city by comparison. Definitely. But still meager beginnings. There were a lot of grass in the front yard, no doorbells, green door torn, no air conditioning in the house. We both... There were... You know, it was funny... When I looked back at it, it sounds poor, but at the time it seemed normal. It wasn't normal. Because everybody were out of his bed like that. Definitely. Exactly. Yeah, and I don't think... I think it gave you an ability... Both of us a ability... not only to gravitate toward each other, but not to lose the common touch. Indeed. And the accessibility is necessary to be who we are and do what we do. Absolutely. Chapter number two, meager beginnings. How do you think now our children were raised? Half of them were raised in the meager beginnings of our beginnings. In fact, let's go back to our beginnings. Let's go back and talk about how we got together. Sure. Don't say too much. I was about to say, this is a daytime show. Okay. So, how did we get together? It sounds very stalkerish in this century. Yes, it does. So, you were evangelizing in my city. You were a pastor in another city, but you came about 50, 60 miles to my little city. And you were evangelizing. And I was a relatively new convert. And I didn't want to roll up, walk up on the man of God and be considered a heathen, even though I still had some heathen tendencies. I was so impressed with the fact that your relationship with the Bible and with God was inviable. Because as a new convert, my church was very legalistic. They told me what I couldn't wear, what I couldn't do, and all of that. And to me, whatever they said I couldn't do, it was, I was like, fine. I just want to be saved. I just don't want to live my life the way I've been living it. And you would come to my city as an evangelist, a young man. And I would think, if God is that real to him, could it be that I could have a better relationship with God? And so I was drawn to your ministry, little by little, I become more infatuated with your presence. I felt a safety, I felt a security. And so I started writing you these secret power cards. Yes you did. I would go to the store, I would buy a secret power cards, and I would be at the post office before midnight, every night so that you would get a card every day. Yes. And so I kept sending them, sending them, sending them, and encouraging you. Yeah. I don't think I was being flirtatious at all, but I think you were intrigued by who could be doing this. You know, there's a little flirtatious. Never that. Yeah, you know, never that secret power cards are always a little bit flirtatious, little hards and stuff. And I'm out there at the post office box, trying to discern, you know, I'm always going to build a private eye, trying to discern and looking at the post mark and trying to figure out who it was. Yeah. And didn't know it was you, but the next time I went to Berkeley to speak, I couldn't hardly speak for looking through the crowd, trying to see who was giving me that. OK. And you were sitting there with the sweater on and quiet and over in a corner and looking on assuming. Oh, that's nice. I did not know that it was you until your pastor's wife came to me. Yeah, my pastor's wife introduced me to you. Yes. But my pastor's wife also came and made me realize that I didn't have to be ashamed of my past and invited me to church. Therefore, I got saved and had I not gotten saved. Or if I had not heard her heart about me, then I would not have met you. And so she introduced me. And it was so hilarious because this one, next chapter man, she said, do you know where a single man could get a home cook meal? Get a home cook meal. I'm like, what a line. I'm like, no. You feel bored of hook, line and sinker. There I am. But I'd said, I'll ask my mom because I couldn't cook. So you came to eat. Yeah. And then you took me to the revival that night with you. Right. And then we went to the pancake house afterwards. And who would have thought 43 years later? We would be here, empty nesters. Yes. Survived several presidents, several storms, several terrorist attacks, several adversities, several family scares, several health scares, several surgeries, several funerals. You go through so many things that's a chapter in your life that shape and form you and may not may not misalign you with your core values, but certainly adds to you an exposure. Yes. And an experience that changes your life. What were one of the experiences that you went through that you think had a great impact on how you see the world? I think we hadn't been married a year. Right. And we had this head on car collision. Right. And the doctor said that I would never walk again. Right. But if I did, it would be with the metal brace and a cane for the rest of my life. And he said that in the ER without even examining me. And I think that crippling experience broke something inside of me that made me realize that this was a win or lose situation. Either you could have been devastated by the news and felt like I'm too young to be with a cripple and walk out on me. But you did the exact opposite. You sent my mother home and you started taking care of me and feeding me and washing my hair and taking care of me. And then eventually, you did not allow me to just lay in my ruins. You started teaching me how to take a step. Yeah. Didn't know what I was doing, but I was doing it. Yeah. You would take my hands and say, take a step. And my foot was like a club. And I would just kind of throw it. And then you said, that's good. And then you would say, take another one. Now rest. And this was every single day. I feel like that was the pivotal point for me. I thought that if he can see me in this broken, unattractive state and still love me and commit to me, then he's really the one for me. We was married then. So for better or for worse, you would start. Do you know people leave one another for less than that? Like the garbage can is open. So I mean, at that, you had, you said something important there. Yeah. Because people give up so easy. Yes. I think that's the difference between people, personalities, generations, times, when the going gets tough, the tough get going. Usually you would hope so, but there's, I think, both sides of the corner is shiny. Because if I had resisted your love or made it hard for you to love me, you know, then that would have been a different story altogether. But I was compliant. I wanted to get better. Very much so. I wanted to get better. And I believed in you. I believed that you could help me get better. And then one, there was an occasion coming up where we were supposed to do a processional. Yeah. And I said, well, I won't be able to walk with you. And you said, well, I will heal you in. So a determined love, steadfast love is rare. It's rare at your age. You were like 24, 20 something, you know, and, and rare. And it's not that I was the only fish in the sea. It's just that you opted to choose me. And you kind of stuck with me. And I, I still appreciate you for that, forgiving me my walk back. But more than that, I appreciate the fact that you didn't let me give up on myself. I never believed what the doctor said. I never believed it. Not for one moment that I believe you were not going to walk there. And though I had no training and though I didn't know what I was doing. And though your mother was hot man when I asked her, go home. Hot man. Hot man. She was hot man. She's in heaven hot man. It's still hot man. Yeah. But I want, I saw it as an opportunity to prove my love and to allow that love to ferment, it ferments in tough places. And I think when, when we get in tough places, it really tells what you're about. True. Also think me growing up, taking care of my father, who was a kidney patient, Yes. Was a primer that prepared me for the paint of doing this situation. Everything you go through is not nothing is wasted. Nothing is wasted. Everything prepares you. I can remember two things. I can remember one of us, you sitting in the closet with all of your shoes all around you crying because you couldn't wear any of them. And she had all these high heels shoes. Real hot shot. Yeah. And she couldn't wear any shoes. And she was all upset. I said, you go wear them again. You know what? And the other thing I remember vividly is laying you on the couch with your head hanging over the side of the couch and washing your hair. Yes. Yeah, I didn't know whether that was the best way to do it, but it was the best way I could figure out to do it. And who would have thought that washing my hair would have been important at a time like that? But that lets you know that self-care does something for you when you're healing. And that wasn't something I wasn't going anywhere, but maybe to a doctor's appointment, maybe. But you were intuitive enough to try to do something to make me feel better about myself and you still do that. You know, thank you. It's always been my desire. I know. Yes, always been my desire. Always. That's something we haven't come into. I can't take that off myself because you you are the most rider-dive person I ever saw in my life. And every time that I've ever been sick or ever been down or ever been out, you have always been right there by my side. You weren't like shopping at the mall and I was a combined see you later. You're everything drops with you, everything drops. Everything. Yeah. And I've learned from you. I've learned from you. I've learned more about love from you. Yeah, the way you express love and the way you handle me when I'm down. Even though I did all of that when I did it, I still learned something different from the way that you love. We love differently. Yes. Yeah, we love differently and we have different ways of expressing that love and sharing that love. We have been through a lot of stuff. I think so. Your mother got sick as soon as we got to Dallas. Yes. And you know, people judge you about what they see on TV. So I was going to get ready, get ready, get ready, getting ready and my ministry was blowing up and I was preaching here and preaching there and there. They didn't know that your mother was sick and then she passed away. Oh. This was devastating because though she joked about her mother getting after me and having her mother and I were very close. Very, very, very, very close. She generally took about side. If there was an argument. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. She was wrong for that. No, no, no, no, no. She was real, real, real close. I lost her and then two years later lost my own mother. So we stood by the grave side as they lowered our parents' body and the ground together. Yes. The funny thing about that is I had written Woman Are Lose. Yes. And in the Woman Are Lose is a chapter called a table for two. Absolutely. And there's a line in it that says, One line says, love is having somebody standing across the bed from you who is as worried as you are about your child. Yes. And the other line says, marriage is choosing somebody's hand. You want to hold when they lower your parents' in the ground. Yes. Yeah. And we lived that. We lived that. We are living that. Yeah. When I wrote that, I didn't know what that would be like. When I, you know, you could write something a lot better than you could live it. Boom. When you have to live and you actually go through it, it does something for you and it does something to you, does something with you and it does something in you. And it gives you something that your parents got through decades of time that you can't always get prematurely about reading the book. You will not get it by reading a book. I think that each episode in our life tees up the next one. Right. I think that each round goes higher and higher. You know, we are climbing Jacob's ladder. Yeah. And I think that if we don't survive this wrong of the ladder, it'll make the next one a bit more problematic. Right. And so I think that what we went through with my mother, I mean, she died in a week. Yeah. I mean, and so that was devastating. And then it wasn't even a year later that mom, mom Jake's was diagnosed with something that took her through a more tedious journey. Yeah. But if my mother hadn't left us so swiftly, then I don't think we would have hung on to mom as desperately as we did. And so I think that we were teed up. I mean, each time it was teeing up for something different. You know something else is we had the girls. Yes. Okay. And they were taking us to one kind of big experience. Yes. We had us going through another kind of experience. And then we had our parents who we were losing. Yes. And I was doing woman hour loose. But I had seen woman hour loose from a lot of different perspectives. And when I started doing woman hour loose, I've been doing it for a while. It kept getting richer and richer. As these different experiences begin to inform me of the different stages of me having a front row seat watching these women learn how to walk, have babies in the labor room. Yes. I can still hear the sound of that machine. I will hear it all in my life. Good. And I was like, I just turned it up. Yeah. Yeah. Me telling you, it's coming. It's coming. It's coming. It's coming. It's going to be another one. And you finally turn around and say, I already know. Yes. It's running everywhere. It's spinning around like the exercise. Yes. Probably. But you know, that notion we're having the baby is only to a certain degree. When it really comes to the real push and the real pain of it, you went through that by yourself. And I was there. Thank God. But you felt the pain in a way that I didn't feel the pain. But I was there. And I was determined to be there. And all of our children were born on a Sunday. Yes. So I had an emergency call. Yeah. I was the rest of church, but I was there. Yes. And stayed throughout the whole birthing process. Chapter number three, coming together. How do you think the trials to test Sarah having the baby before she got married? All the things that happened with each of the children had at least one calamity that we had to go through. How do you think that has caused us to to grow together when most of the times people grow apart? Well, I think it's because it was us against them sometimes. I think that if we didn't stick together, those rescues, let me tell you that they were rescalings. They would have taken us out there. So I think that I think we, after we would get on the same page about it, because we would have different opinions about it, because of the way I was raised, and the way you were raised, we would have different opinions about it. But I think that we got on the same page and we did what was best for what we thought was best. Now, children don't come with the manual. So we thought we did what was best for them, occasion upon occasion. Right. So I think that once we got on the page together and we were able to somehow convince them that we did maybe know what we were doing. You're right. We didn't know, but maybe, you know, we're going to try to do the best that we can to get you through this. Right. And I think that's what helped us a whole lot. You brought up something and made me think about Thanksgiving dinner. Thanks to giving dinner before we got married. And my mother's house down in the basement. And my family is Rambucks', I mean, we're half-fiving each other and calling each other's names and getting all excited. But we don't mean anything about it. It's just how we communicate our families. We'll sit down and they were sitting there looking at us horrified like, oh my gosh, you know, it's just that I had them's family. You know, they were waiting for it to come around the corner, you know, with the shaggy hair. The coming together of two people is the coming together of two different cultures. Definitely. Even when you're the same skin tone, your family has its own culture. And then out of that has to emerge a new culture for this new family. When you talked about the difference between how you saw things and I saw things, it was in part the difference in the way we were raised. The culture of our family, the time and where we grew up at. And sometimes I found out, sometimes I was right, sometimes you were right. And I think it's important, no matter what your first reaction is, to what the other person says, that you go back and play it over in your mind. There's no guarantee that you're right about everything. And you have to be willing to see it from another person's point of view. And sometimes you were exactly right. And it turned out you were right. And I submitted to that. And there were other times that I was right. And you submitted to that. You did, you do it better than me. Because even when I said, when I said at the green table in the kitchen, one Martin Court, and told you that I said, Serita, I think we're leaving. You said, leaving? I said, yeah, I can hear you, my preacher. I can hear you, my preacher. And that place they keep telling us about in Dallas, I think we should go look at it. You never, we had just moved in this house for about two years. And it was the house of our dream. Absolutely. It was the city's nightmare, but it was our dream. She never turned me back worried about leaving that house. You would have thought we were leaving a tent in the woods. You started getting that stuff together and packing that stuff out. I came down here and put tape where everything was supposed to go in the house. And she oversaw them moving it in. There was a certain amount of, I don't think we've ever fully let anything separate us to the point that we were enemies. We disagreed. We had disagreements. Not arguments. We seldom argue. We seldom argue. Because you talk for a living. Why would I argue with somebody that talks for a living? A loo, loo, loo. Listen, no, she, because she has the thing about my wife is, she will say something. She will say something soft. She will say something once. But I had to learn that she meant it like this. Yeah. Even though she said it like that, that's what she really thought about it. And I had to learn again from her family culture that the volume and the intensity with which she spoke did not diminish the sincerity of what she spoke. And I think learning each other is a journey that takes decades. And you simply give up to someone who the marriage, the wedding takes about 30 minutes. But the marriage takes at least a couple of decades. Yeah, it takes a couple of decades to really begin to know. For example, here we are about ready to retire. And she says to me, I'm going back to school. And she just liked a few credits from having her degree. And she decided she wanted her degree. And I supported her going back after her degree. I've never not supported what she's done. She's never not supported what I've done. We've always been partners with Bonnie and Clyde for better for worse. Bonnie and Clyde, why? Yeah, we were, we were about to end Clyde. You got somebody and she got a lot of money at her. You would be surprised. Not Bonnie. You would be surprised. But it was, it was funny because she went on and she got her degree. And we celebrated her who went back to what she did in the State University. Absolutely. And finished her degree, mostly to prove to yourself that you made it. I think it was during COVID. Okay. And so I was locked up anyway. So I went back online. I got in touch with my professors and you know, they were like, yeah, sure. You know, and got me all signed up. But I think to prove to myself that I could complete something that was that significant to me in at one point in my life. I kind of got side-realped from my degree because my oldest brother was murdered. And I thought, you talking about Bonnie, she rose up. I'm like, wait a minute. You're going to kill my brother. And so I just, I just lost all thoughts of anything else, but on this little revenge tour. And so when I decided to go back, I think it was for him. I think it was for me. And I think it was to show myself that what I started was important. And completing it made me feel so good. I felt like, yeah. You're an alumna. And I, and you know, we contributed to the alumni fund. And so I just felt like WVSU owes me nothing. Right. You know, I went down there as a freshman and walked the campuses. What's so crazy is ladies and gentlemen, I'm taking over the next chapter of this project. Thank you. My, they, you were on the campus the same time that I was. Yes, yes, we were married. We were not married, but he was a freshman. No, you were younger than me. So I was probably like a junior. So more something like that. Newer freshmen. We walked on the same sidewalks. We went in the same building. We did know it. We did not know one another. And then younger, we were at these. That is, that is conventions together. These big choir. In these choirs. We have the voice choir. She's in the choir. I'm in the choir. We didn't know it. I mean, it's so all along the way, our paths were aligned. Yes. But steps were ordered. Yeah. And then in the fullness of time, and a few secret power cards, and a little pinocal flirting, I'm sitting here with your next chapter. You know what it occurs to me that sometimes you're praying for something that's right up under your nose. You know what? We've got a vase in our room that says, I didn't choose you. My heart did. Uh-huh. And I feel that God knows. He knows what it's going to take. And he'll keep us all separated until it's time, and then our paths collide. Yeah. And so I'm grateful for that. You know, the timing of the Lord is everything. And I think you have to trust that it's not your time. I'm learning a lot about patience, which is a heart subject to learn. But for me, but to learn how that everything has its own perfect timing. And when you go through something, you have to trust that you're going to come out. Yeah. Chapter number four, grief. I want to talk a little bit about grief. Uh-uh. You-you had a brother that was murdered. Uh-uh. You-you grandmother, of course, passed away. Your mother passed away. And more recently, you had a brother that got ill, and got sick, and passed away. Those were tough things to get through. What-what was your self-talk that brought you through? I think my brother, who died recently, was doing so well. I mean, they were going to put him in hospice, and he refused, and he sprung out. He came out of it. He was doing so good. And when we least expected it, he slipped away. And I felt, every time he would get sick, he was in Michigan, and you would fly me up there, and I'd stay for a week or two, and he'd come up, and then he would go back down, and I'd fly back up. And so I'm at home, and his wife calls me. She said, Sarita, he's gone. And I was like, no. Absolutely not. And I thought, I did all that I could to keep him. Mm-hmm. I did all that I could. And so it's-it's grief brings a bit of consolation if there's no guilt attached to it. And I had done the absolute best that I could to take care of him. My older brother, it was out of my hands, and completely, so I tried to see about his children now. My mother, my mother got sick in a week, and I was out of town. And there were so many of naysayers that said that my mother kept asking for me. And if Sarita were here, and if Sarita were here, and so guilt consumed me, so drastically that when I got back in town, and I just walked right past her bed because it was- she was on life support. There was nothing that I could do. And so it was grief, and it was guilt, and it was- I was in such turmoil, and self-hate and loathing, and I didn't know what my other siblings were going to say to me. And when the doctor said it's time for us to make a decision about her on life support, all of my siblings, two of which were older than me, said whatever she says. And I thought, is she going to make it if I take her off? And they said she's not going to make it. And so I signed the consent, and her numbers went down, and I slid down in the floor. There was so much guilt for me, for years, for years and years. I wrestled with not being here for her, when she needed me the most. And it was guilt, was guilt is a terrible thing. So the self-talk had to be, you did all that you could, you did all that you could, and nobody could reassure me, nobody could console me. It was up to me to make that decision to let that go. And it was difficult. Very difficult. It was difficult, but, You know the thing that I think a lot of people don't take into consideration. They allow one moment, or one weekend, or one ham sandwich, or one cheese soup, to define a whole relationship. You and your mother went everywhere together, we did everything together. You know where she was. She was so surprised when we moved to Texas, that we were bringing her with us. And so I thought maybe if I hadn't broader the Texas, and then I thought she would not have had it, because she loved her grandchildren. No. So I thought, I had to redefine our relationship. I really had to redefine our relationship, because that was my girl. Oh my God, that was my girl. And she just slipped out, you know? And the thing that people don't realize is that we are people, that we have the same kind of problems that you have, that we have the same kind of disasters that you have. We have the same kind of emotions that you have, whether you see us on TV, or see us on social media, whether you're listening at this podcast, you might even send it to somebody who's going through a devastating grief, where you have more questions than you have answers. I tell people, don't try to understand it, try to survive it. That's true. That's very true. It's not intellectual. You're in a war, and you have to survive it. And survival starts with what you tell yourself about it. Absolutely. And then grief doesn't mean that someone expires or dies. Sometimes grief is a divorce. It's a breakup, teenagers heartbreak, you know? Right. It's an grief, and they feel like that they can't survive it. And grief comes in many forms, but the self-talk, and surrounding yourself with people that will feed you the right language for your emotions is so important. Yeah, it could be. I lost my house. I lost my job. My job, my anything. If you define yourself by something and you lose it, you mourn for it. Absolutely. And sometimes you don't get the recognition like you do when it's a person. That's true. People don't recognize that devastated you in a way that you may have PTSD behind something that you lost and not really beginning to help the therapy, the counseling that you need and be self-medicating. And everybody's talking about how you're self-medicating, but they don't know the root of the problem. It's rooted in some area where you lost something where your manhood or your womanhood is compromised, and you feel like, you know, am I really a man? I lost the house, I lost the car, I lost the job. They said this about me. They said that about me. All that kind of stuff. Flush all that stuff out of you. If it takes a month, if it takes two months, if it takes three months, if it takes quiet, if it takes boiling up and a not, you got to get past that because there is something on the other side of grief. Yes. And you have to believe, you have to keep believing that there is something on the other side of your pain, no matter what the stimuli is. There's something on the other side of your pain where you wouldn't be going through what you're going through. And I think that's a very, very important thing. Chapter number five, the lime light. Let me just change subject to minute and ask you this. How did you handle me being in the lime light? Whether it was woman or loser, mega-fess, or us going to the White House innumerable times. What's that? How was that for you? Well, after a few minutes in the restroom, along the way, I would come out, I would come out like, you know, that's my boy. You go boy, that kind of thing, and chew you on. But I also realized that with this amount of exposure, light comes heat. Comes heat. And so there's something that about all of this, yeah, that makes me really, really nervous because it's such an invasion of privacy, that you're trying to help people and you're laying out your pearls, you're giving them your heart, and you tell me sometimes I'm a bit too transparent. But I'm giving you my heart, I'm sharing my story. This is my life, and this is our life. And I feel like with that exposure, some people shouldn't have that much exposure to us, or had that much access to us. And so I'm not the one that's going to run and jump in front of a camera. I'm not the one that's going to jump and grab a mic, and then be scrutinized by millions. I don't like it. Millions of people you don't even know. I don't know, and they don't know me well. They know what I give them. And so I, and I feel like I'm giving you my heart. Dude, so why are you talking about whether the lace is showing on my wig, or if my makeup is not beat, or if this, my nails aren't done, we're trying to help you. It's not what we look like. It's who we are giving you ourselves, except or reject, but don't criticize until you've walked a mile in my shoes. And that kind of makes me a little bothered. That's when Bonnie rises up. Don't talk about my husband. Don't talk about my children. Don't talk about my staff. Don't talk about anything that is precious to me. I have a very close circle. I don't have a lot of friends. I'm not going to be hanging out with the girls on a girl trip, unless it's my daughters. I don't roll like that. My family and my, it's, it's everything to me. And if you say anything to about them, whether they're drunk or sober, it doesn't matter to me. That's, those are my people. And so when you're up there on the stage and doing your thing, I'm watching the people, not as much as your mom to, they, you remember how mom would turn around, mom would turn around from the stage. And watch the congregation. And I thought it's, it's, but I watch and I have, somewhat of a discerning spirit. Yeah. And so I can kind of tell who's with you and who's not with you. That's one of the things. But I just don't like the fact, the, the feedback that you have to get back. The fall out that comes with it. And especially now with technology. Oh my god. Where they can make pictures, they can make movies, they can say anything they want to about you without consequence. And a lot of times, yes, you can sue them, but it, it's hard to sue somebody who doesn't have anything. So after while your attorneys bills are more than any recompense you get and you just, you just walk away from it, settle it, ignore it. Yeah, yeah, it's hard. It's hard for me because I want to take you. That's very hard. That's, that's very hard. But I guess to whom much is given much is required. And it's biblical. I mean, they said Jesus was me as a bud. They accused him of everything imaginable. And, and, and I'm not comparing myself with Jesus. But I, God, please say that again to the people in the back. That's the kind of thing you get. But I find that the comments of the people is a reflection of how they think. Or dope or can't. Yeah. It's not a reflection of who I am. It's a reflection of who they are. And, and what they value and what they would do if they were in my situation. They don't always understand that you're always in the like, when the moment you drive out your driveway, you are in the light. And you, and that's hard on your children. Is it very hard to understand? It's unfair to your children because they didn't pick this life. No. But they have to live with this life. And they have to grow up in the spotlight. And you're, they're just like your children. They grow up right. They grow up wrong. They do things you're worried about. They do things you don't approve of. They, and that's part of growing up. Yeah. And people can be so cruel. I am amazed at the things people can say. In the comments that have nothing to do with the message. Nothing to do with what you're doing for the Lord. Nothing to do with feeding the people that are hungry or homeless. Nothing to do with clothing and neck. And you're doing that. And that's what the picture is. And below, they're talking about look like you're gaining weight. You know, I mean, just, just, just your mind is. It is. They're mind. It's their mind. It's their mind. I don't think of that. Yeah. Because I just think social media is not very social. No, it's their mind. It's their mind. Whether it's hatred, whether it's jealousy, whether it's envy. It's people speak on the level that they think. And it's impossible to speak on a higher level than you think. For if you think down here, you can't talk up here. So if you have an intelligent conversation, they'll pick out something. Even if they're not cruel, they'll pick out something like, you know, I love that skirt. And you'll be talking about how to have a lung replacement. And they're talking about your skirt, you know. People, people just think on the level that they think. And you, if you're going to survive it, you cannot let them in. You cannot put your thermostat in their room. That's the only way to do it. And you have to get where you don't care. It hurts, but you have to get where you don't care. Now, it hurts worse when it's your kids. Then it's dangerous where it takes you at that point. Because I'm very protective. She's very protective. But we have gone through a lot of things together. And that's what makes the anniversary so special. Yes. Because they represent not how long we endure each other, but how many milestones we've crossed over. Oh, my. How many, how many times we, how many chances we had to die. And then to think that we've been together longer than we've been alive or apart. Yeah. You know, longer than we've been with our parents. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, I've been with you longer than I've been with my mother. Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's just, that's just crazy. Trump to number six. Health scare. I had a health scare. Yeah. And, and I'm going to tell it. And then I want you to tell it from your perspective. Because what I'm learning is in a family, a family can experience the same thing, but they don't experience the same thing. It can be the same event, but it's not the same event. I'm preaching. I'm fine. Uh, crazy like a fox. I'm going at it with everything I got. Got down to the end of the message and sat down and just collapsed. I didn't have a pain. I didn't have a chest pain. I didn't sit down because I was tired. Uh, I just sat down, went to sleep. And as soon as they realized my, we'll see, I had been up under so much pressure. Not just from, from the attacks and the disinformation, social media attacks and the misinformation. Not that. That's just a part of you. So my wife had had knee surgery. While that was going on, she had had knee surgery and knee replacement. And so she's learning how to walk, trying to get up on her feet again. There were all kinds of things that were happening. She lost her brother. There were all my brother had had kidney failure. All of those things were happening at the same time. And, uh, and I think it was all too much. One thing here, but five, six things, it was too much. Uh, and, and I'm not a person who knows when it's too much. That's another thing. I'm not a person who knows when it's too much. I will just keep going and pushing and pushing and pushing. Even until now. Yes, yes. You just pushed through. I was raised that way. I was raised in a home that that was required and expected of you. I had to push through my father had kidney failure. I had to push through. He was running a business. I had to push through. I had to make payroll by catching the bus and going down there to pay his staff. I was taught to be responsible. And so I gave out. And, uh, and she came running across that stage for the first time with no crutches, no cane, no nothing. She came to me. What was that like for you? Oh, horrifying. I was petrified. I was petrified. As soon as I could tell that something was dramatically wrong with you. I dropped everything and hobbled across that stage to you and got in your face. Yeah. To see where you were and what was going on. And you looked at me but you didn't see me. You weren't looking at me. I was growl. You were not looking at me. And I locked down. When we go through crisis, I go inside the storm shelter that's in my heart. And I close down everything. I let know there's no access to me. What so ever all I am is razor-focused. And I thought that this isn't good. No. And I was going in and out. This isn't good. Uh, I was in a really bad place. Yes. Maddically I was in a bad place. But I was protected from pain by God Himself. I didn't. I don't remember a lot of things that happened behind stage and so forth. So this Joker right here. Very respectfully, Joker. Mrs. Joker, first lady. Thank you. Yes. Queen Joker. Queen Joker is one. We go out there and they are putting me in ambulance. Okay. And she comes over to say last words to me before they zip me away in the ambulance to have, uh, I had had a major heart attack. I didn't know it. I knew something was wrong. And she comes over there to say something to me. I thought she was going to quote a scripture. Pray. Yes, because I'm deep in the mysteries. Yeah. And she says, me grow if you die, I'm gonna kill you. And I started. And here we are. Yeah. Yeah. I got to start. I burst out. It's all the matter. I burst out. It's all the matter. At the end of the month. And they were on me on to the ambulance and I kept thinking to myself that she realized how crazy that is. If I die, what am I gonna care whether you kill me or not? She said, if you die, I'm gonna kill you. That's the last thing she can say. And here we are. Yeah. And I'm here. Thank you, Lord. Yeah. I'm here. I'm here. I'm here. Scared you didn't. Yeah. Scared me to death. You left me to death. I was in there. They were put all this stuff for my chest and I was laughing. I was laughing because of all the things I explained to them. It was not one of them. Got you together. And I paraphrased it a little bit, but it was hilarious. It's okay, Black History Month's next month. Yeah, okay. Okay. It would be fine. It was, she's crazy. I also know about you that when something's really bad, you lock up. Oh. I learned that about you. Oh. I was a baby. Yeah, I will want reaction. And she will give you none. None. There is no reaction. She turns into a mannequin. Yes. But that just means that she is so worried and so concerned that she has locked herself in. And I had to come to other people. And everybody out. And everybody out. Everybody out. No access. You're not getting in. You have to learn how to live together. Yes. You have to learn how to understand each other. Do I look for them in knowledge? And I think that takes time. And what was true when you were 20? Is not true when you're 40. And it's when it changes when you're 60. And hopefully when it gets to 80, it's going to be different because these are chapters. Yes. They're next chapters. And sometimes you can influence how the next chapter goes by learning the lesson from the previous chapter. You have to. And maybe you're facing a next chapter in your life. And they can be so scary. Even when it's good stuff, it can be so scary. And my word there of it, what all comes with it that I don't see. How cruel people are especially right now. Next chapters can be horrifying. You described your feeling as horrifying when I had that heart attack. Sometimes to walk into an office building or to do an interview or to a platform alone or to go into the hospital to see a child has got cancer. It's just horrifying. And we've walked so many people through chapters in their lives. And sometimes I think that we were allowed to go first to let them know that there's hope on the other side. Yeah, because I preached my first funeral when I was 19. Yes. But I was way over around 40 before I understood what that pain felt like on the other side of the casket. And what's interesting to me as I age recently, they buried my neighbor that I've known since I was six months old. She's known me. She was 105 years old. And she passed away. And so as I get older, I realized that I no longer have a tree to shade me. And so I have to become that shade to other people. And so I'm taking the chapters in my life and trying to become as leafy and fruity as possible because people can eat off of my branches. That's beautifully said for one day. And the second thing is, don't be so quick to chop down your shade tree. You would be shocked how much good parents, not perfect parents, good parents, shade you from. A lot of times you don't really miss what you got to the scar. And you have to do everything yourself that you didn't even know was the thing because they shaded you from it. They shaded you for so many things in your life. And I think that to some degree, we have given each other shade. Absolutely. And fruit. Much fruit. No more fruit. We had no fruit, Jesus. I hope you have enjoyed this opportunity for us to come into your space and into your life. And hopefully there's a podcast playing in your ear and there's one playing in your head as you look at the situations in your life and begin to think about what you've had to face or what you're facing right now. Maybe you can tweak how you're responding to it and how you're handling it. So whether you're on the treadmill or whether you're going for walk listening or whether you're listening in your car on a podcast, it doesn't matter where you are. It matters who you are and what you are and how you allow that to infiltrate the very depths of your being because even doing this costs something to share our lives with you outside of just smiling in a camera on stage to be asked to share what makes the glue stick. You know, that's that's what they're asking. It's a double sided tape. Okay. Double sided tape. Whatever it is, it has held up for 43 years. Four. This year. Forty-year. Forty-year. Forty-year. I want credit for every year. Baby. Every year. And this is a special year to me. It is a year of my 50th year in ministry. Yep. And I spent 30 years pestering the part of his house. I spent 20 years preaching in West Virginia. Can't believe. I cannot believe. That's one thing we got to talk real quick about before we go. I cannot believe the people that are leaving out of our generation because it happens so fast. And I feel like obligated to warn the younger men and women. You don't have time to be mad. You don't have time to be stubborn. You don't have time to be unforgiving. You don't have time to worry about petty people. This thing grows quick. You don't blink and see wrinkles and gray hair and knee sag and hip replacement and everything. You don't have time to put that kind of negative energy into somebody that even if you change their mind, they're going to be who they're going to be. You don't have time. So with the time that you have to the best of your ability, I don't care if it's eaten or hot apple pie from McDonald's and putting the candle on it, find a way to celebrate your life and your victories and your triumphs. And don't be so busy trying to prove something to your neighbors that you that you don't celebrate yourself. Chapter number seven, our next chapter. Since we're empty nesters. Okay. What do you see happening for us and our marriage in this next chapter? I would like to rediscover dating again. I like it. I think that would be wonderful. Before we still have mobility and rightness of mind to travel some, to enjoy life and fruit and not always be the fixer for everybody's problem. I'd like that. I would like very much for us to celebrate the winds. To even celebrate that we survived the losses. That's a different kind of celebration that we had losses and we made it. We still made it. I would like to have a lot more time like we had sitting out on the lunae when we got to laugh and talking about. Can you believe we made it all the way to hear that? That kind of thing would mean a lot. Yeah. I want to talk a little bit because you started a brand, started a company, a starting producing homewares and I know how big you are on home and candles and all sorts of things that you started making products that are available and even sneaking them in my suitcase from time to time, time to time with that travel down the road. So I have a little piece of home tell us about your company and what your aspirations are for your company. Well, I think the premises of the company was always the fact that home is important to me and making a house a home is very important to me and so home comes with the things that you see, you touch, you hear, you smell, you taste, all of your senses are exercised by the things that you feel at home and so my home line touches all of those points. Those are touch points for everybody. I feel like that you need to create a sacred space that you are a sacred space and you need to surround yourself with things that remind you of the importance of having a sacred quiet, calm, peaceful space, even if you're traveling. So it started with me putting a candle in your bag so that when you get to your hotel, you could light a candle and it would smell like home because you traveled so much and so and then my kids will say things like that smells like mommy, you know, they buy me cologne, they say that smells like mommy, it looks like mommy, something that reminds you that you belong and that you're a home and so that's what the premise of Suridhijak's home is for me. I feel that that's what I bring to our brand. I feel that and I'm not boasting and correct me or I can stand corrected but it won't matter. I feel that home is what I brought to our family. I think that you had all over the world you had to go but you had a base and that when you got home, I wanted to make certain that you were home and so that's what I do. I completely agree. I think a great deal of our accomplishment in making it. I could get the house. You turned it into a home. Thank you. I can make the children but I can never be their mother, their nurture. I have since learned that a father has a significant role to play. My. As well. I didn't always know that. You learn that as you go along and I think I didn't know it because my father for the most part though he was home and worked all the time. He didn't focus on mama took care of his and daddy took care of the peoples and that was our routine growing up. So understanding all of that I give all of that to you. You keep us together. You explain it one to the other. You mediate fights and storms and disagreements and all of that is the advantage of having you in the house and I don't know how we could do it without you. Hey because I'm not going anywhere. Chapter number eight adapting to hardship. When we first got married you had this fantastic job and then the plant closed and I can remember how sad you were but do you think that those early scrapping days how did I know that it affected you emotionally but how did it affect you moving forward. Did you think it built your tenacity? I felt like it was my responsibility to keep the family afloat. That's what I'm supposed to do and they took away the tool I was doing it with and it made me feel less than a man. Yeah. And it worried me today even though you never worried me about it. You never put demands on me. You never said the lights are off and I'm out. I mean we had real bad lights without the water was off. One day I'm all the utilities were off. The phone was off. I had to go to neighbors house to use the phone because once we started falling I couldn't get up. I couldn't get up so I started I got a lawnmower started cutting grass and got a couple of guys to cut grass with me and started a lawnmower coming in because I was determined to just sit around the house and watch TV. I started digging ditches and putting in gas mines for people at gas leaks trying to make things happen during that time we would take coke bottles or Pepsi bottles or any kind of bottle of Mountain Dew I don't care what it was and we would trade the bottles in for for money. Yes. And we would roll the quarters up in aluminum four and go to the store and buy all the groceries we could to keep the children fit. We took paper towels and made diapers out of them and it surrounded them with duct tape If you think for one minute that your fooling with a couple of people that grew up with silver spoons in them out you have grossly underestimated us we knew how to take 20 dollars and feed all five kids. You know I can do it now I can even as high as prices are now I can make it happen if I have to make it happen because I grew up with parents that had to make it happen. She grew up with parents that had to make it happen and so thank you for not ever making me feel bad because we were going through that. Thank you I see so many women I didn't know until I got out and I started counseling I see so many women who who who keep the man in the head and he's out there trying to do everything he can. Some of them are trying to do nothing they might need a good kick but but if he's out there really trying to make it happen every I respect any any man that will work just don't bring me no man that won't work any man that will work work try pack buses load trucks cut grass I speak to everybody I speak to everybody working the helpers the janitors the plumbers and all of them because at least you're out there fighting and you're trying to make it happen and you make fool around make it happen better than the doctors in the lawyer yeah and and I respect fight and I'll help you fight yeah but I won't help you while you sit at home and don't do anything I won't I won't do that you have to get in the fight because it's the fight I respect it's the fight I tried to teach my kids fight back yeah fight back and but I want to thank you because I didn't have to fight you while I was fighting it no that's what happens when the co-minors daughter Mary's the janitor son they're probably sitting in heaven living at the both of us right now that that that is very true we both knew how to make it do what it do yeah you know and uh dirty face and all yeah yeah we just just went through it and made it work and uh you never asked me for anything I never had to ask you for anything yeah no no no uh I'm the one that's always bringing stuff on yeah I'm the one that's always bringing stuff on you might need this you might want to where it is just in case just in case and then the new chapter I'm getting a new wardrobe yeah because we're going to new places and then the new circles around new people and them more corporate more corporate setting not church settings not church and and so that requires a certain element of change I think and I know a lot of you will disagree uh but I think that you it is easier to adapt to your environment than it is to make your environment adapt to you and sometimes refusing to make modifications to fit the atmosphere that you now work in that you now speak in that you now perform in is foolish because there's somebody there's a barefoot boy right outside the door would love that opportunity and he will cut his hair and he will do what he has to do and he will make the changes that are necessary to be taken seriously should we have to do it no I understand the the cultural conflict of having to adapt but you do what's necessary to get where you've got to go until you get enough money then you can do what you want to and then you can tell all of them you know you can grow your hair all the way down to you anywhere yeah but when you're trying to climb up to the top when you're trying to be noticed when you're trying to get in the door when you when you're when you're trying to be acknowledged for your mind and your brain you don't want your mustache to get in the way especially women yeah yeah especially women whatever you whatever you have to do to adjust if if you work at Wendy's you wear Wendy's uniform you work at McDonald's you wear McDonald's you work at the police station you wear a police uniform you work at the emergency room you adapt you wear the uniform they don't say as you do you like it they don't ask you to put the read uniform put a brooch on it you you can do all that when you get off your ability to adapt has a lot to do with your ability to survive too I hope you've gotten some out of this thank you for for listening as we as we meander through our lives and talk about the different moments but all we have are pictures and moments we don't we don't have 43 years or all of those months or all those weeks we don't remember what happened every hour of every day or we remember it's the moments so when you go out there in life make a moment for somebody and cause them to have a next chapter thank you for sharing and for being with us and I will shake your hand because that's the appropriate thing to do no kisses okay all right anyway so fresh by y'all it's really durable hey everybody I want to take this time to thank you for watching the next chapter podcast if this conversation inspired you helped you reflect on an idea or spark something new inside of you make sure to like comment and subscribe so you don't miss future episodes remember life isn't about how you begin it's about how you're finished strong to start your next chapter with us right here every week