Ep 188 - Celia Chomon Zamora

Hi, this is Dr. Osiris. Hi, this is Dr. Ossis. I'll leave it with another episode of the Way to College podcast. And the podcast has definitely given me a wonderful opportunity to reconnect with folks within my network, but then also to expand this network. And so I feel incredibly blessed at this opportunity to grow that network. But more importantly, to learn about the journeys of all of my guests. I feel, I don't know, I think about my own youth growing up and listening to my grandparents. And anytime it felt like somebody would sit and share their story with you, I always thought that was such a special moment. And so to be a part of all of these stories and to hear all of these stories for me has just been an incredible blessing. And so, you know, today, today, we're going to continue to add to that network. And so today's a new guest and somebody who prior to this interview today, we have had one other conversation. And I've spent some time looking at her LinkedIn profile and so very impressive, but I'm eager to get into the nuts and bolts of her story. So, Celia, would you mind introducing yourself to our listeners and viewers out there? Yes, thank you so much for having me. It's definitely an honor. So my name is Dr. Celia Shimonza Mora. I am the current executive director of the American Council of Academic Physical Therapy. I was born in Venezuela, raised in Miami, Florida. I'm a life long learner. I received my bachelor's degree from Florida International University in an English and Japanese major. Before that, I went to West Point, the United States Military Academy. Then after that, I didn't necessarily know what I wanted to do with my life. So I did master's in linguistics at Florida International University while I was teaching K-12. And that made me really interested in linguistics. So then I pursued my doctorate in linguistics at Georgetown University. And I was in between academia and just language teaching for a bit until I got into associations. So my first association was the American Council on the Teaching of Foreign Languages, otherwise known as ACFL. For six years, and I recently left it, and I've been in this new role for three months now. Wow. That was a long introduction. No, no, no, no, by all means, absolutely not the longest man. I've had, I've had so many introductions, but there's, there's so much there. Yeah. And so, you know, I, my first question is always, if you had to identify a starting point for your journey, where would that starting point be for you? You know, it's funny, I think it was when I was six years old, and my family had just emigrated from Venezuela, and we were put in a school in Miami, Florida, my brother is six years older than I am. So he came in at 12 with a little bit more English than I did. And I just went in and did not know any English. I only spoke Spanish. So to be honest, Miami wasn't the worst place to be there. But still, there weren't that many resources available in the 90s for an English as a second language speaker. And then what I ended up seeing happening in my community as long with my friends, with my family, and with all of my classmates is that as our English proficiency got more, what they got better, my Spanish started dwindling, my Spanish, I started forgetting my Spanish, I started making up words in Spanish to kind of, you know, kind of make up for it. So for example, I remember one time, it was Easter, and I asked my mom if I was getting my Easter basket, and I couldn't remember the word for basket. So I said, well, just add a vowel to the English word. So where's my basket? And my mom said, absolutely not. So she got this old crusty dictionary and made me look up the word for basket and I had to write it out a hundred times. And I never forgot the word for basket. But that was a turning point for me because I kept seeing this pattern of all of my friends and family members and colleagues just losing their Spanish. And when you start losing your language, you kind of start losing your identity. And that made me in some ways or another start shaping my advocacy and my lifelong passion for ensuring that people learn their languages. They either learn, keep or relearn their heritage languages. And that led me to my doctorate and my dissertation. And a lot of articles that I published and a lot of keynote speeches that I've done have been to really empower and support and motivate our heritage language learners. So I think really that was my starting point in my journey. Remind us, how old are you? When mom's asking you to rewrite? I think I was about eight or nine years old. Yeah. And it happened various times. And it's interesting because my husband, and mind you, I'm raising a son right now. He's multilingual. And it's hard. It's hard raising a multilingual child because for them being immersed in English and going to school in English and having their friends in English, my son's a baseball kid. So baseball's all in English. And then having to sit there and talk to your parents in Spanish. Sometimes the words just come easier to an English. So there are times that he will respond to me in English and I just have to say, I don't understand what you're saying. And then he'll scoff and he'll roll his eyes and go, Oh, fine. And then he'll stay in Spanish. And that's, I remember doing that to my parents too, but my parents were very firm and said, no, this is a Spanish only household. And now in my 40s, I am so thankful for that because they gave me, not really knowing, they gave me the best gift that any parent can give their child, which is being a multilingual, multicultural child. Whereas my husband, they picked their battles and speak to him in Spanish. He would respond in English. And they're just like, I don't really care. I don't have time for this. Sure. And they would just let him respond in English. So what ended up happening by the time that we met in high school, he did not really speak Spanish. And if anything, when he spoke Spanish, he felt very embarrassed and he felt ashamed of his Spanish. So he would speak it less and less. And when we started dating in high school, I told him, well, if you want this to go the distance, you're going to have to learn Spanish. And then now I'm happy to say that after 20 something years, his Spanish proficiency is super high. But it is a challenge to do that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm just so impressed that having that experience with your mother and having to write the, you know, write the word for basket over and over again. But all of a sudden, like having the, and I granted, right, you have, you have perspective, you can look back right on these moments. But even then recognizing, hey, this is important, right? Clearly, it's important to mom because mom's making me do this. But then recognizing like that you want to advocate for this, right? And so that it eventually becomes sort of this mission of yours is a lifelong mission. That always impresses me because I think to so many times when we think about kids and young, you know, and I think, I think it's easy for us to downplay like, oh, they're going through a phase or they're not really thinking about this or that. But so many of my guests talk point to these critical moments where they're like, oh, it was that. That's what it was when, when this crystallized when education became important, when, when I saw the value and importance of language. So thank you. Thank you for sharing that. Your, it sounds like one education was important was something that was instilled in your household. What were some of those early messages beyond just that language and your culture were important? What were some of the other other messages you were getting? So my parents, so my brother and I were the first generation college students. No one in our family had gone beyond high school. And my parents constantly instilled in us this idea that they sacrificed everything to bring us here. And that's a double-edged sword, right? Because on one, and it's like, well, we have to make sure, you know, how grateful we are that all the sacrifices that led us to this moment. My brother has a master's. I have my master's and my doctorate. I'm currently in this executive director role, and my brother and I are both professionals. You know, we've gone above and beyond what my parents had reached. But at the same time, it's this ongoing pressure that we have to make sure that the sacrifices that my parents made for us are worthwhile. And we used to joke that we are a family of nomads. My father's family's from Spain, and they fled to Venezuela during Franco. My mom's family's Cuban. They fled to Venezuela during Castro. Then my parents were in Venezuela. I was born there, and they fled Venezuela right before Chavez. So the ongoing joke between my brother and I was like, can we stay here? Are we good now? And, you know, now it's debatable. But so really from an early age, we saw the sacrifices that my parents made for us. And I mean, there was one point that my dad was the sole breadwinner for a bit, and he lost his job. And so my brother and my family and I, we had to, after school, go sell bananas on the street to make sure that we didn't lose our house. And my brother and I constantly looked at and we saw my parents just struggling and working so hard that we said we need to make sure that we do right by them and the sacrifices and by us. And so that's why for us, education was always of the utmost importance. My brother went to the Air Force Academy. I went to West Point. We both did, you know, our postgraduate work, just to kind of make sure that we paid back all of the sacrifices they made for us. Wow. Wow. Well, I'm sure your parents are very proud of you all today. I hope so. I'm feeling good. All right. You're, as a kid, we're always asked, what do you want to be when you grow up? Do you remember what it is that you wanted to be when you were a kid? 100%. So we got here in 1990 and in 1992, Hurricane Andrew happened in Miami, which back then, it wasn't heard of, but it was like the first massively major destructive category 5 hurricane that had ever happened. And we had only been there for two years. I mean, we put masking tape on our windows. That is how we prepared for a category 5 hurricane that was coming straight for us. Thankfully, by the will of God, that went slightly south right before it hit us. But we still got massive destruction and so forth and a lot. And I was in second grade back then. And a lot of my friends, they dealt with, because they was really traumatizing, they dealt with that trauma in being scared of tornadoes and being, you know, just worried about the weather. Whereas me, it took the opposite effect and I just became obsessed and fascinated with meteorology. So I would watch the weather channel 24 hours a day. I could tell you what the highs and lows were in Chicago. I could tell you the jet stream for the next five days. I mean, it became an obsession to the point that my entire dream was to be my goal in life was to be essentially Jim Cantore. I wanted to be with a poncho in the middle of a category 5 hurricane holding onto a palm tree and reporting. My mom was not super happy, but she supported me. And so with that, that was my entire goal. So for years, decades, that was my goal. I wanted I went to a broadcasting school. I did everything that I could. And I remember my mom took me to an internship that they had, they had this open call for internships for this show on ABC called by kids for kids in the 90s. And I went there. And when I applied, I was excited. And they told me, Hey, you're a little too brown, you're a little too ethnic. And you have too much of an accent to ever be on camera. But have you ever thought about being behind the scenes like a producer? And I was living. But then I turn on the TV and the most representation, the most ethnic like ethnic reporter we had was Connie Chung back then. So I kind of shrugged my shoulders and said, Well, I guess they know what they're talking about. So I gave up on my dream. And I kind of went through this level of what do I do now? So then my next goal was to be a secretary of state, very, you know, slightly more ambitious. So then that's what I went to West Point. That didn't end up working out. And so then I was in this weird kind of what do I do with my life? I started thinking about should I be a chef? Because I love cooking, should I, I don't know what to do. And then that event, one of my cousins said, Hey, while you're figuring out why don't you go into teaching? So I said, Sure, why not? I like kids I can teach. And that ended up being a career for about 15 years. During that time, I taught K 12, I taught English, Spanish, Japanese, Portuguese, my taught at public schools, private schools, universities, community colleges, and all of those failures and stepping, stepping stones and detours led me to the career that I have today. So I always tell people, it might be a closed door, but look for those cracks in the windows, because that's what's going to get you to the point where you are ultimately in the career that you want to be. Okay, I've got it. I want us to backtrack a little bit because I think one, all right, I get a lot. No, yeah, no, no, no, you did, you gave me a lot. And thank you. Thank you for kind of walking us through that. But I get the meteorology, right, being becoming a meteorologist. I feel like, yeah, that's it's incredibly fascinating, right? And, and to be in the middle of the storm and to play such an important role, because you're informing the public, right, of what's going on and, you know, how safe is it out there or unsafe, but then to shift, right, to have that experience where they're like, you're not, you're too brown, you're too ethnic to be on camera, behind the scenes, to shift from that to Secretary of State. And so my question is, where did those, those big dreams, right, the, the, the, where did those aspirations come from? Like to dream that big, because I feel like, you know, I think when we're really little, we've got, you know, I want to be a princess, I want to be a king, I want to be president and NFL player, right? But for you to go from meteorologists to Secretary of State, and to follow that through to eventually end up at West Point, right? Where do you think that came from? I would say it's twofold. I say it's nature and nurture. So nature, I have always been a type A personality. In fact, I remember someone once told me that if there were such things as type A plus, that would be me. So I've always wanted to be the best to work the hardest to have those accolades. I'm a perfectionist by nature. But at the same time, and I'm extremely competitive, in fact, my top five strength finders are Woo, communication, competitiveness, positivity, and I've always forgot the last one is, but it has something to do with being competitive. And that's the, that's the nature part. And the nurture part, I've always had parents and family that have wholeheartedly believed in me. My parent, my mom and my dad always knew that West Point wasn't for me. Like I'm too extroverted, too, you know, out there, happy, smiling to ever have gone to West Point. But they never once said no. They said, if that's what you want, then we will support you. They drove me to all the interviews. They drove me to get Ilyana Ross-Ladon's nomination. They, I mean, they supported me. When I wanted to be a meteorologist, my mom drove me an hour to downtown Miami to go to that internship. My parents never once stood in the way of my dreams. If anything, they supported me, even if they themselves knew that that wasn't the dream for me. And I kind of try to do the same thing for my son, too, that I will net my son wants to his, he's 11 years old today. His ambitions right now, he wants to be an MLB player, a pathologist, and on the side be a conductor for an orchestra. And I could very well just sit here and say, like that, you have to choose one of those. But why, why could I? Why can't he do all three? If anything, what we're working on right now is work, life, balance, and time management. Yeah. But who am I to tell you that you can't follow your dreams? And I think that that's what made me always believe that I could, because I had a family that consistently pushed me forward and internally that drive. Shout out to your parents, right, for encouraging you and supporting all of that, your, your dreams and your aspirations. Let me ask you, you, you've talked about your father losing his job and then the family coming together and selling him bananas after school. It sounds like you also had the work ethic to back up those dreams. Would you agree with that? Yes. There's a picture that always lives vividly in my mind. It was a, a, a, my God, a Polaroid. And it was of my mom and my dad and my brother. My brother was like, I think 15 or 16 at the time. And they were drenched in sweat at a warehouse because of my dad's job at the time. If he wanted to pick up a few extra dollars, he would need to go in the weekends and just clear out the warehouse. So my mom, my dad and my brother went to do that. I was still too young. And I remember they took that polo, that Polaroid and they put it in the, in the house and I would look at it and I would, in my heart would break thinking, wow, you guys worked really hard. I'm so sorry. And my mom would say, no, just, just pretend that we were just sweating from a really nice time at the beach, that we just had a nice vacation and we just, you know, that's what we did. And that image of that picture always lives within me because my parents are both retired now and is, and as is normal in Hispanic culture, they live with me and my husband and my family. So they're part of our household now. And anytime that I have a chance to invite them out to dinner, to pay for a vacation, to pay for them to get all of these great experiences that they never had because they were so busy working hard to just make sure that we had enough to do the things that we're doing. I mean, now I feel like I'm spoiling my parents in the ways that they weren't able to do for me or especially for themselves while they were sacrificing everything. Wow. Wow. Thank you. Thank you for that. You said West Point wasn't for you. And you alluded to being extroverted and kind of your demeanor and personality. What was it about West Point that just didn't fit? So I was, my brother had been in ROTC in high school, JARO2C. So then I joined JARO2C when I got to his same high school and I became battalion commander, which is the highest, highest rank in all of JARO2C. My senior year of high school, I was my instructor for JARO2C kept saying, hey, I think you have a really good shot at West Point. You have your, you have the grades or top percentage of your class. You have all these things. And I kept saying, no, it's not for me. And then September 11th happened, my senior year of high school. And when I saw all the things that my country had done for my parents and for me, immediately it gave me a sense of, I need to go and serve my country. So then I told my instructor, you know, maybe I should apply for West Point. And then there were other male cadets in my class that were also applying and then they all laughed and said, there's no way you're going to get in. And I said, oh, okay. And so then I got in and they did it. So I think a lot of it is driven by like that internal, oh, you think I can't? Well, let me show you that. And so then I went and I think I was still on this like patriotic high and all these things. And then I get to West Point. And at the end, even the West Point is the most prestigious military academy. I'm sorry, everybody else said all these things. West Point is at the heart of engineering school, like math obsessed engineering. And that is completely the opposite of me. So I had a rough time at West Point. And then all of that, all that to say during that time, I did get end up getting sick. And so then I was given the opportunity of, well, you can take an honorable discharge, or you can kind of start at the beginning. And I said, you know what, I think after being here for a while and realizing that this is not for me, I think this opportunity has blessed itself. I think I'm going to go ahead and opt out. So I got the honorable discharge. And I think it took, I think at that point in my life, it took, I think that's one of the bravest things that I did. Sometimes I look back and think about maybe I should have stayed. But the fact that I knew it wasn't for me, and that it wouldn't have made me happy, and that it would have been a loss. I mean, I had, I had some friends, and my brother did two at the Air Force Academy, that they realized that was not for them. But going home was never an option, because it would have been an embarrassment to their family, and they committed suicide. Because it was either you stay there and be miserable, or, and so my parents welcomed me back with open arms, because they were like, well, yeah, it wasn't for you, but I'm glad you came back. So I think it took a lot for me to, and I, and I see that a lot in like friends and colleagues, like I have friends that have gone to law school, and then halfway through law school, they realized they hate it. But they say, they tell themselves, well, I already took the LSAT, I'm already in this deep, might as well just finish it. Why? You don't know how much time we have left on this earth. You know, if you're unhappy, and this is not for you, and this is not your path, why are you going to stay in it and be miserable? And of course, everyone has different opinions on that. But I just feel like life is too short to, if you know something is really making you miserable, why are you going to stay? You know, I appreciate you sharing that, because I think a lot of times there is tremendous pressure to stay and to stick it out and to tough it out, right, whatever we want to call it, whatever language we want to use, right, to describe it. But I think it is important to recognize, right, that if I'm not, if I'm miserable, if I'm not just, I know I shouldn't be here, that it is okay to step away. And so I appreciate you sharing that, because I don't think that's not that is a message that we give to a lot of young people. Right. So having established that, right, it wasn't for you to step away. What advice would you give to somebody who's made that decision, and then trying to kind of recalibrate, right, going forward, like, okay, what, how do I figure out what's next? How did you figure out what's next? There was a lot of self-reflection, because I left, and then those like next six months were really hard. It was constantly second guessing my decisions. It was, did I just throw away this incredible opportunity on a whim? But I knew, I mean, it was not an easy decision. It was not a decision that I made from one day to another. I knew from the very beginning that this was not the place for me. So I really took those next six months to just re-center, and to not jump into the next thing until I was 100% sure that's what I wanted to do. So during that time, I just, I knew that college was important. I needed to finish my degree. So I still went back to Florida International University. And I started taking different classes to see what I liked, and English literature was always one of my passions, especially because of broadcasting. So then I continued with that. And through that is when I eventually found linguistics, which is what ended up being kind of like put everything that I wanted to do in my life together. But I really would say to just take a lot of time to re-center and to, and to do a lot of self-reflection as to what makes you happy and also what doesn't make you happy. I always tell people that I mentor that it's just as important to know what you're not good at and what you don't like doing than what you do, because that helps you narrow it down. Yeah. Thank you. But it also sounds like, you know, you mentioned something I think that was, it seems important to your story is that you knew your degree was important. And you're like, so you went back and you enrolled at Florida International, right? So because I think sometimes, and I don't know your thoughts on this, feel free to chime in, right? When you're trying to figure out what's next, what do I like, what don't I like? Here for you, you knew there was no second guessing. My degree is important, and I'm going to go and continue to pursue that while also still trying to figure that out, the rest of the stuff out for myself. So do you think that was helpful to you finding, figuring things out? Yes, absolutely, because it's really easy to stay in your bubble and not, so I know it's not about me, but I can give you a side story. So my husband, I told you we're high school sweethearts, we met in high school, and in our bubble in high school, you only had very limited paths. You were going to be a lawyer, a doctor, or miscellaneous. And so then he knew he didn't really like school, but he knew for a fact that he needed to go to school. So he went and got a history degree, and he was going to go into law school after that. And then he realized by talking to a few people and starting to take some law classes, he did not like it. And so then he now here he was with a history degree, not knowing what to do. He got a couple of jobs here and there, got laid off from one of them when we had just gotten married at 22. And he realized he was unemployed for six months. And at that point in complete desperation, one of our friends had a very, very, very entry-level job to like an engineering assistant at a hotel. But we were so desperate, I was working as a public school teacher making $30,000 a year, we needed something to pay for our apartment. So he took that job. And he started working hands on with the engineering department. And then he started really liking it. So he started getting certifications and working and learning and working and learning. And now years later, he's the director of engineering from area. Wow. Never in his wildest dreams did he think that that was going to be the career that fulfilled him. But when you're living in this bubble, that the only career paths that are made available to you are what people are feeding you. It's very difficult for you to really explore what's out there. And I feel like college is the opportunity that you get to explore so many different classes and start seeing, I like this, I don't like this. And then because I like this and I can take a class that's similar to this. And that's how, for instance, iPhone linguistics, eventually that's how he found engineering. But if we hadn't gone to college, for example, we might not have really invested or even he wouldn't have never seen that, you know, the career path that he was told he should go on was not the right one for him. Wow. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. That's a powerful story and a great example. So your public school teacher, husbands working in a hotel, right? What was next for you in terms of your trajectory? What was on your radar in terms of here I am as a public school teacher? What were you thinking about? So this goes back to my original story about the heritage speakers. So I was teaching in a predominantly Hispanic serving Institute and school. And I kept seeing my students struggle because the Spanish curriculum that we were given was, hi, how are you? Here's the alphabet. And all of these kids speak Spanish at home. You know, they have obviously gaps in their knowledge that they need to fill, but it's not being filled by Spanish one. And then once they go to Spanish one, if they're too good, then they go to AP Spanish, which is like college level Spanish. So that's a massive change that they're still not like learning how to write where to put the accent marks, how to conjugate the verbs. So at that point in the early 2000s, I started without even realizing this existed, started kind of creating a little piecemeal curriculum for Spanish speakers that needed Spanish. And I kept looking at my students. I kept looking at my husband, my friends and saying, I need to do something more than just teach. I need to do something at a higher level so that people know that this is an issue and that we need to fix it because no one is coming to Miami to see how the Spanish speakers are learning Spanish. They just feel like we know Spanish, we're good to go. Absolutely not. And I started taking a master's and linguistics course at Florida International University. And that's where I met one of my lifelong mentors, Dr. Melissa Baralt, who had just graduated from Georgetown. And she finally put words to what I was advocating for, heritage language speakers. And that's when my mind just exploded. And I said, that is what I want to do. And she said, well, there's not really that much research. It's just really brand new. And I said, that's what I need to do. And I then set my sights on getting a doctorate at Georgetown. Georgetown was my number one school I applied to other ones, but that was kind of like my number one because I wanted to follow in her footsteps, because I wanted to write the book on it. I wanted to do the research on it. I wanted to present on it. I wanted to be the voice of heritage speakers, so that's kind of what my next steps were. Applying to Georgetown, going to Georgetown. Did that obviously required you to leave? Yes. So I left Miami, which we had not done. I mean, we had gone on vacation here and there, but my husband and I, so we had made a list of things that would mutually benefit our careers. And so we both said, I told him, Georgetown was my number one. And he saw that the engineering, you know, hotel area was great. So then we both decided that DC would be our place. So once we got in, we packed our bags and we moved and we loved it so much that we ended up staying years afterwards too. So we recently moved back to Tampa, to Florida, to Tampa about three years ago, but we loved the DC Virginia area. After completing the PhD, well, first, let me ask you because here you are, you're working, right? Establishing yourself as a teacher, clearly very invested in your subject matter and the things that you want to do. What was that transition like going from your work to Georgetown? Very, you know, rigorous, top tier university. What was that transition like for you? It was very interesting because, first of all, I went from living with my parents my entire life to then getting married at 22. So I never lived alone my entire life. And when I went to Georgetown, my husband still hadn't got in a job up there and we could not sustain our family on my very low graduate school, student stipend, and him not having a job. So I had to live up there for myself for six months. So that was really interesting living by myself for the first time in my late 20s. So that was the first transition. The second one was that all of my colleagues had either in Spain or in America, or they had done all of their degrees in Spanish. And then I come in saying, hey, I am a heritage speaker. I'm here to do all this work. And when I would go to school one time, one of my professors asked me, okay, so how would you explain to your students to conjugate the pluperfits, adjunctive, and third person in a contrary to factual sentence? And I just looked at him blank and I'm like, I have no idea what you're talking about. And I use that in everyday speech or not everyday speech, but I use that, but I didn't know how to explain it. So while all of my colleagues were doing their homework and then going to work on their dissertation, I was going to class, do my homework, and then going home and reading Spanish textbooks to kind of like relearn all of this very, you know, non salient, you know, forms that I hadn't heard of in a while in order to be able to explain it in my dissertation to the point that I still remember that one specifically, because that's the one that I used in my thesis. It was really humbling because I was so used to always being the big fish in the small pond, then now I was the small fish in the big pond. And that was a really massive brain transition that I had to do. But then, because I am me, I ended up winning the graduate student teaching award that I put on my desk. And eventually I got the highest prestigious award that you can get as a doctoral student, which is the Harold G. Glassman Social Science Dissertation Award, which means that my dissertation was the best one in that entire year. So again, it was the mindset of, okay, now I'm the small fish in the big pond, how do I get back to being the big fish? So it took a lot of work, it took a lot of determination, it took a lot of hours, a lot of my friends would go out on the weekends or they would party or they would go out to like happy hours and I would go from school straight home to study. And you know, in my second year of my doctorate, I just happened to have a baby. You know, just so I'll let you know, just to add, you know, adventures. And I remember I had to submit my qualifying paper, which is what transitions you from your master's in passing to officially you working on your dissertation. That paper was due May 15th, and I gave birth to my son May 12. So I, and the, my professor said, Hey, you clearly can turn in your paper late. And I said, No, so I remember breastfeeding and literally typing with one hand and I turned it in on time. Oh my God. I like to make things harder on myself. Yeah, that's what it's happened. What came next for you? After completing your dissertation, you've earned, you know, your doctorate. Did you want to go into academia was, you know, now was it like, I'm an apply for a tenure track position or what was next? That's a fun story. I did not want to go into academia. I did not. Because I didn't feel that I was going to really make the impact that I wanted to there. But when you're in that bubble, you're kind of fed that this is the only thing to do. That is how you're going to get prestige. So then I did go and apply for tenure track positions. And I got to the final three final interviews for the lot for three, and I didn't get any of them. And I remember just going to my mentor's office and just crying and sobbing. And I realized, well, I'm just going to have to go do something else. So I applied for actual and for this senior manager of quality assurance and certifications position. And they said, No, we actually went with somebody else. But if you know, if you're interested, we have a consulting gig that you can do. And I said, absolutely. I'll sure I'll do a consulting gig. So I consulted with them part time for about two years. And then in the meantime, I became the department chair of a private all girls school, the department chair for their foreign languages program. And during that time, it was a rough time because I felt that I sacrificed so much to get this doctorate and to do all these things. And here I am back teaching at a private school. And it was a lovely private school. But I just I kind of felt like I went backwards. And then I started thinking maybe I should go into academia. Then my mom told me, when I showed her the things that I would have to do my first five years in order to then go from assistant professor to associate professor, I would have to publish two to three articles a year in peer review journals, I would have to do X amount of service, I would have to teach X amount, I would have to do all these things. My mom said, you're essentially getting another doctorate. And during my doctorate, I kept looking at my son and telling him, I promise that once I'm done with my doctorate, I will be with you more, I will pay more attention to you, I will devote more time to you. And then my mom said, well, are you going to be able to devote all this time to him, if you're going to essentially be doing another doctorate, trying to get this, it's never going to be enough. And I kept saying, yeah, but the prestige and then my husband said something to me that I still quote to this day, prestige doesn't put food on the table. And I said, fair enough. So I just kept applying to different things. And finally, Atoll said, hey, I know that you've been consulting with us part time for two years, that original position that you applied for, the person's leaving, are you interested in applying again? And I said, absolutely I am. And so then I got that position two years later. And I got to Apple and I said, okay, well, I guess this is where I'm going to retire because it's an association for language professionals. It's what I want to do. I'm a linguist. Great. And then what ended up happening is that they did this whole restructuring during COVID and they opened up this professional learning and certification department. They needed somebody that had a doctorate that spoke multiple languages, that was a linguist that understood education, that understood assessments, quality assurance, that could give keynotes, that could advocate basically all the things in my life that I had done. And so then I applied for that position and I got it. And then I oversaw Department of Three, which turned that into a Department of Nine. And during that time, I realized I wanted more, but I didn't know where I would go from there. And then I got into this program called the Diverse Executive Leadership Program, which is called DELT, at the American Society of Association Executives. And it was this program that helps underrepresented, minoritized leaders get into executive positions. And it was there that I met my DELT colleagues that they told me, you know, it sounds like what you're really, really passionate about is leadership. You've always been a leader, whether a leader in the ROTC, leader in teaching, leader in your research, leader in linguistics. What really brings you happiness is that leadership potential. And I said, oh, my gosh, you're absolutely right. So then for the first time in my late 30s, I realized that what I really wanted to do is be an executive director. So I wanted to lead an organization, I wanted to lead a staff, I wanted to develop a staff and do the operations and the budget and the advocacy and be the spokesperson of it. And then that's where the next journey was. Stalia, thank you. Thank you for walking us through that. And there's so a couple of things that I wanted to pick up on are one, so I can relate to what you were experiencing when you're in that bubble, right? And you're doing your PhD. So I earned my PhD in curriculum instruction. And then immediately when I was finished, I think a lot of my mentors were, all right, so now we've got to get you and you got to apply to tenure track positions. I had no interest. I'd worked in higher ed for, I think to that point, 12 years. And so I saw folks on the tenure track position, right? And I saw the hustle. And I wanted to run programs and I wanted to work with particular populations. And so I didn't go that route. I'd there were other things that I think I valued like you, I think you recognize. And it's only when you can step away and see from the outside, I think, and like, okay, what do I really value what's important to me? So thank you for sharing that. Two, earlier, you mentioned about this bubble and about the careers that were fed. And I appreciate you talking about that because so much of that I think is what has informed this podcast, like the creation of the podcast. Because here I am, I was working with first year students, they'd come to the university and they were like, oh, this is what I can do. I can do one of 10 careers. Or this is what my parents want me to do, right? My parents who like yours, sacrifice so much. And they want me to be a nurse, they want me to be a doctor, they want me to be a law enforcement or something. And so I love your story because so much of the work that you've done, even postgraduate school, aren't things that any kid would ever say, I want to do that. Because we don't know about that. We don't know about these associations. We don't know about the work that they do, the advocacy, we don't know about consulting, we don't know about what it even means to be an executive director, like what's that, right? That's like a foreign language to us. So I appreciate you talking about that because what you've done now is you've introduced, hopefully, our listeners to a world that like, what's that? And so thank you. Thank you for kind of walking us through that. Before we get into this work as an executive director, talk about these associations and talk about this work because, and really about the nature of the work that they do. Because I think that they're, like I said, others might hear this and be like, well, what's that that's foreign to me? I have no idea what that is. Right. So first, I will say that I thought an executive director needed to be of the field. So for example, if I wanted to be an executive director, I could be an executive director of language educators or linguistics. But then I met the executive director of an association that had to do with gynecology and he was not a gynecologist nor a woman. And so you can lead an association and not be of the field. So for example, right now, I'm the executive director of the academic physical therapy, and I am not a physical therapist by any means. But I do come from an association space where there is an association for almost everything. And associations can be an organization, a nonprofit organization that represents members, like individual members, or a trades or institutions like mine. And as the executive director, so you report to a board, so the board of directors are volunteers that do come from the field at some times, and then they're the ones that lead the vision. So they're essentially the brain. And then the staff of the association is the heart and the body and the arms that they're the ones that kind of make the work to action of the brain. And then the executive director is the neck. So we're the ones that kind of guide the board to where we should be looking forward. And we're the ones that connect the board to the staff to make sure that everything works and is aligned, and we can serve our members. So that's kind of the best way that I describe it to people. It's a lot of advocacy. It's a lot of position statements, representing your organization, being able to lobby or at least represent what your organization does to different stakeholders, a lot of operations. So looking into HR and to finance into the tech leadership development of your staff, being able to have the vision of being able to put the vision of the board into action, such as educational programming, events and conferences, really making sure that you are doing right by your members. What are you enjoying most about your work? I am enjoying two things. Number one is developing my staff. We are a small staff. I went from having a staff of nine as a director to now having a staff of three and a half in this current role, but I love being able to shut up to work every day and ask them, how can I help you grow? What are your next steps and how can I get you there? Whether it's going under my wing and helping me do the budget or whether it's sending you to professional development or doing one-on-ones with you on what your gaps are. The other part is really looking at everything as a puzzle piece. So right now there are a lot of inefficiencies and things that have maybe been duplicated or there were no policies and procedures. So maybe kind of taking the whole picture and being able to just put everything into pieces that make sense to then bring our organization into the next level. So I'm really enjoying that work right now. You mentioned something really interesting. You said you asked your staff how can I help you grow? What's next for you? Where do you see yourself growing or how would you like to grow? I think right now in my third official month of this role, I would like to see myself be successful in this role. It took me a long time to get to this role. The last year I tried getting into this role for a year into an executive director role and all I kept hearing were no's. No, you're too young. No, you're not ready. No, we went with somebody who has more experience. No, no, no, no, no. And then finally this organization said, yeah, we'll give you a chance because we see it. We see potential in you. And so right now my goal is to show them that their investment in me is 100% worth it. And I would like to see this organization double and triple in size and in revenue and in influence. So that's kind of where I see myself long term to making sure that this organization that invested in me when nobody else would, that I'm going to invest everything I have into them. I love that. No, no. Saley, I want to be mindful of our time. And so as we head out, so we transition out, what's one last piece of advice you'd like to leave for our young listeners, our young viewers out there? I would say two. The first one is you will learn more from your failures than from your wins because your failures give you a chance to grow, to tweak things, and to make things better. If you constantly win or get everything that you want on the first try, what is the impetus for ever changing or for ever seeking something else out or out of your comfort zone? So when you fail and when you take that loss, don't think of that L as a loss. Think of it as a learning. And the second thing is something that I tell my son every single night before he goes to sleep. I tell him, it doesn't matter what kind of day you had, loving, silly, rough or tough, you are always important and you are always enough. Because at the end of the day, no matter where you are on your journey, you are enough with how you're showing up every single day. And you're enough right now is going to be the same whether you are a millionaire or whether you have two dollars in your pocket. You are enough by existing and by doing the amazing work and the amazing influence that you're having on other people today. Beautiful, beautifully said. I couldn't agree more. Celia, thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you for your time today. Thank you for sharing your story. You're so rich. So many lessons, I think. And I know it's going to connect with so many of our listeners and viewers out there. So thank you. This concludes another episode, The Way to College podcast. Thank you to my guests. Thank you to all of our listeners and viewers out there. Please remember to subscribe, rate, follow all of that good stuff and do me one favor. And please share the podcast with one other person. I'd appreciate it. We'll see you again soon. Bye-bye.