Episode 348: Protecting Kids Online, In the Real World and All the Awkward Conversations with Mary Flo Ridley and Megan Michelson from Birds and Bees

Parents, are you looking for a screen-free, engaging way to teach your kids the Bible? One that's easy to understand and enjoyable for multiple ages? Kids Bible Stories Podcast is here to help. I created this for my own children, and it's now a favorite among thousands of families. Kids love the vivid imagery, scriptures, and sound effects, while parents appreciate the apply section for meaningful conversations. We have hundreds and hundreds of beautiful episodes that bring the Bible to life when you simply press play. It's a sound and practical resource that walks alongside you as you teach your kids. We want kids to see how incredible God's Word is in an engaging and memorable way with Kids Bible Stories Podcast. Listen to Kids Bible Stories Podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, we want to tell you about something we're really excited about. Really excited, and honestly, something that's been a long time coming for us. If you have been around us at all, you know that in our counseling offices, we're seeing kids who are overwhelmed, anxious, and struggling to handle things that used to feel more manageable. And at the same time, we're seeing parents who are trying so hard, showing up, loving well, getting all the advice, and still feeling unsure if they're helping or hurting. That is exactly why we wrote our new book, Capable. Capable is about helping parents raise kids who can handle big emotions, hard moments, disappointment, and real life, not perfectly, but resiliently. We talk about why kids today have more support than ever, but less confidence in their own ability to cope. And how, without realizing it, we sometimes step in so quickly that kids miss the chance to practice becoming capable. This book is full of stories from our counseling rooms, practical tools you can actually use, and encouragement for parents who are doing their best and wondering if it's enough. In fact, we have 100 capable building exercises in the book that we are super excited about. So if you're parenting a child who feels anxious, sensitive, perfectionistic, or overwhelmed, or if you feel that way as a parent, this book is for you. Capable is available now for pre-order, and pre-ordering really does help get this message into more homes. You can find Capable wherever books are sold, and you can learn more at CapableBook.com. Thanks for letting us share this with you. We cannot wait to get this book into your hands. Hey friends, welcome to the Raising Boys and Girls podcast. I'm Sissy Goff, and I'm David Thomas, and we're so glad you've joined us for this conversation. Let's dive in. Megan and Mary Flo make up Birds and Bees, one of our favorite resources for parents. And in 1986, Mary Flo began presenting a popular parenting seminar in the Dallas area teaching parents how to talk to their children about sex. Armed with medical research, personal stories, and humor, Mary Flo walks parents through very specific ways to answer their children's early questions with confidence. She gives parents a simple strategy that allows them to share their values in the preschool and early elementary years. Mary Flo grew up in El Paso, Texas, and graduated from SMU. She has been joyfully married to her husband, Dave, for 40-plus years, and they have three married children and nine grandchildren. Megan was born and raised in Dallas, Texas, and graduated from Baylor University. Before diving into the world of sex education, Megan was a middle school teacher. She and her husband, Blake, have been married for over 15 years and have three kids. Megan is passionate about equipping and empowering parents to have healthy and age-appropriate conversations with their kids about sex. When she's not speaking to parents, she's in the trenches of motherhood. So happy, so tired. We are so excited for you to listen to this conversation. I was wanting to take notes, and I literally, because I'm living in the same house right now with my sister and her family, I ran upstairs and started telling Kathleen several of the things they said. So much good information. We are so excited. We cannot contain ourselves. We would take any opportunity to sit down with these two amazing women, Megan and Mary Flo from the Birds and the Bees. We just, it brings us so much joy to see your faces. It brings us so much joy to know that you all are impacting the world and helping so many of us who feel lost and confused, that you were just featured on today. We just are so thrilled every time the word gets out about you two amazing human beings, and we're so glad to get to spend time with you. And I have to say it's like torture to be in different cities because we enjoy you both so much, and we've sat around a table and had your great Tex-Mex together. It's really painful to be on a screen looking at the two of you when we'd like to be in person. We feel the same. We feel the same. We're so happy to be here. We've had snow days not as intense as you guys, but this is just like a little bright light to talk to humans. Other people, we are, we're very thrilled to be here. But we have been on your cozy couch, and think about it. We had thought about coming to- Oh, wow. We did. We really thought we would come, and I guess because of the hard snow, this won't be showing until after the snow's over, but that was kind of a providential thing that we did. Yes. Yes. That's a great point. And that, if you're watching on YouTube, that is why we're in three different cities, because David and I are normally sitting next to each other interviewing folks, but I'm in Kentucky and he's in Nashville, and you all are in Dallas, and we have all been impacted by the storm. Yes. Well, so let's jump in and talk about the hard things to talk about that you all talk about every single day, and where we would want to start, you know, we're in the middle of what kids need right now season, and you all are what parents need right now, and filtering over to kids. And I think in all of these years collectively, we have all four been doing this work. I think we would all say it feels like culture is moving faster than we can keep up with technology, all the areas that it is, we are dragging along behind it, and we would know, we would want to know first, what do you feel like kids need from adults right now to keep them anchored and protected in that reality? I think they need in the, in the, what you just said, the fast pace of the culture, parents need to slow down the parts that they can slow down, and have a slow down at least a little bit of the day, preferably around a meal, they need to take a break from the screens, whether it's a really great football game, or, or kind of nonsensical things, whatever it is, they need to take some time in a purposeful way to connect with their kids, and hear from them, talk to them, hear about their day, the good, the bad, the struggles. So we feel like we were talking about this before we got on, and we were just saying that parents need to not try to keep up with the culture necessarily, although they need to go on, and if any way they need to go ahead of the culture, they need to go upstream, that's, that's who we talk to, we talk to parents of preschools, to go upstream to establish certain habits, but they also need to be a contrast to the culture in a restful, safe place. And I would add, I think, you know, what do kids need from their parents? And I would say, you know, they need competent and competent parents in this to feel like they can trust their parents. Like, that's a, you know, there's two things that come to mind is this analogy that someone's used about the pilot on the airplane, you know, of, ah, turbulence, you know, like that makes you as a passenger, but if, as for parents to emulate the pilot that is, you know, it's going to be okay, we're going to have a little turbulence up here. I'm ready for it. It's not a big deal. And then we'll, you know, and so as a passenger, as a child, you think, oh, okay, I trust that person. And so I think that's how kind of our posturing as a parent to emulate that type of pilot for our kids, this is what we're navigating, it's going to be okay, here are some great tools. And I feel like people look to you, myself included, of how to be that kind of parent for our children. And then you posted something the other day that I thought was just so impactful, particularly as a parent educator and a parent myself is we want parents to feel capable in their own, I don't know, their own abilities and not constantly leaning on people like David and Sissy or birds and cheese to tell them what to do. Obviously, we are grateful to be in these positions and have things to say, but to really empower parents to say, you can do this without us, you know, or take what we have to say, take what you guys have to say, but really lean on your own intuition, lean on your own understanding of your own children and all these things. Because it's like, I think sometimes a generation can lean too much on the experts, because there's so much noise out there. And I don't know how to say this without like, putting myself out of work. I mean, it wasn't a mean, but not everybody. No, I'm kidding. But I would just say to lean on your own. I don't want to like, count for biblical verses either. Lean on your own understanding. That's not what I'm saying. But intuition, yes. And that's something we talked about kind of from this a little bit too is, lean, we want our kids to have intuition and as parents, we should have intuition too, because there's so much movement and unknowns going on in the world. Kids need parents that are stable and secure. And I think all that jumbling I just said, hopefully is just showing parents like they need a parent who is secure in who they are and what information they want their kids to have and how they can filter the information from the world to their children to be a grounding force in their life. Right. I remember with my kids as they were growing up, the fewer friends that they took advice from, the better decisions they made. Like, you don't have to ask everyone you know. What you should do about this. But it's good to say, I'm thinking about running for student counsel or I'm thinking about joining this. And it's okay to get their opinion, their take on it. But don't just spread yourself so thin that you're not, you know, leave room for your own thoughts and moving forward on what you think is right. Talk to your friends, talk to your parents, but then make a decision and you'll be okay. You know, but sometimes they spread themselves to thin and parents do that too. They can't make a decision without talking to everyone. Or listening to every expert on social media. Yeah. We a lot of times, at parenting seminars, will say pick two voices that you trust that you want to speak in, which birds and bees would certainly be one. We would want everybody to have on their list. Yes. Okay. Let's build on this idea of intuition. So we talk a lot about kids needing both resilience and discernment. So how would the two of you say those actually get built in a culture that normalizes oversharing and constant access? I feel like this is coming off of something you've said before because I've had three young kids and so I'm just constantly putting to work what y'all are telling me to do. And I think maybe you said at Sissy about discernment is like a muscle. And particularly with girls. And so I just think an example of like, how do we build that in kids is speaking into it and like naming and claiming something. So like a conversation with my daughter at bedtime, she's going back and forth about something with a friend or whatever and kind of name, you know, that something in you kind of said, I don't know about that. And you trusted that. And that is discernment. And so I'm really proud of you for acknowledging that feeling. You're kind of gut in there that told you, I don't know if I feel good about that situation or, you know, the past time I spent time with her, I felt kind of this and, you know, that's a you're kind of encouraging that muscle to get bigger of like, listen to that voice, because that was a good, that was really wise. So that was really discerning of you. So again, kind of just like putting that word on that feeling that they have to kind of helping them and boys too. But in this situation with my daughter, and since I know you've said a lot that generally speaking, girls can kind of struggle with discernment of not trusting their instincts or trusting something that feels right or wrong. And so to kind of help build that muscle a bit more by speaking into it and kind of affirming that. And also, I love that Megan just said, give it a word, give it a name, that's called discernment. Yes. But I also feel like for resilience and discernment, they need to understand trust. Why do we, why do we sometimes trust this person or not trust that? But what, what makes someone trustworthy? And trust is kind of a growing balance, I think, with parents towards their children, with children towards their, their friend group. But what goes first, like I know with parents, do you wait for your child to be trustworthy and then trust them or you trust them and let them show trustworthiness? Like what comes first in that balance? But teach them just the, the back and forth of that. Like, I'm going to trust that you're going to handle this really well. And until I see otherwise, I'm trusting you with that. And so I think the trust goes first. But then that causes them to think I'm being trusted with this. Sometimes we fail. Sometimes we, we mess up and I've messed up and you've messed up, but let's rebuild that trust. You know, so I think letting them fail in a safe place with parents who love them unconditionally so that they can say, that's okay, you know what, let's start over. And you're doing hard things here and it's not easy. And, but I'm here for you and you're, you're just, you're growing up, you're learning these things. So it's, it's not like you, you fail and then you're done. So it's, it's a real, it's a process. I love that. Those feel like such important words to anchor them to from discernment to trust all the things. Thank you, y'all. And now a quick break to hear from one of our incredible sponsors who make the podcast available. So our city got hit with an intense ice storm, six degrees, road shut down, half the city lost power, except you, you somehow kept your power and gained new roommates. We did. And our dear friends, the islands packed up their kids, their dog and moved in for a week. They are the best cooks. So our house turned into a Michelin star restaurant. 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And so if you had to say what has shifted the most in the way that predators access kids in the past five years, what would you all say? I mean blanket statement is technology. It's like that has just become a huge piece of the puzzle where before I think and not to dismiss, I think there is still abuse happening in real life, but unfortunately, but I think technology is definitely just change the game and become such a bigger piece of this ugly puzzle. And so I think that's where and kids are being have access to technology at such a young age now. And not all bad things. It's not like we're saying screen free or die. That's not one day six, it's no days here. So we are really so I'm not saying that, but I think technology is the big piece that's changed it. And so I think your conversations have to change. And I think you're just it's a balance of awareness and fear. You know, we can't live in this constant fear. And so what do we do with this awareness and how does that translate into conversations we have with our kids and at what ages those conversations start? Well, and also, how are you listening to this technology technology has become the AI has become so personal, people actually name their chat GPT, they give it a name act as if it's a person and trust them with valuable information. So adults are doing that. And that's what they need to step away from and realize that using personal pronouns talking to you encouraging you, how can I help you with that? I can help you with that. They're they're getting closer and closer to what would be like an intimate relationship. And adults are finding themselves depending on that. And I think they need to talk about discernment even in front of their own kids. Like at work today, you guys, I was I was using for my assistant my chat GPT. But I noticed the language got more and more personal. And I have to be careful about that. That is not a real person. And that it but it their their purpose is to pull me in and to trust them. And so I just want to tell you all that that is something that kid not only kids deal with but parents deal with. So with middle school kids or you know, older kids, I would I would say, share with them your own struggles and hold each other accountable. Like, I know for my adult children with their kids, they'll say, you know, if you see me on my phone too much, just give me the signal. Sometimes I'm unaware that I'm in a tech stream that I'm paying too much attention to. Hey, you know, draw me back. I give you permission to do that. So I just think it's a, we're all trying to figure this out. And so this is actually a great way that we can teach our kids, okay, technology isn't just new for you, it's new for me. This is what I'm learning. This is what I'm seeing. This is what I'm fearful about for all of us. Let's help each other. So many parents nowadays are aware of the importance of modeling technology use, you know, of, okay, I put my phone away at dinner, you know, dad and I both put it away. Or you know what, after school, I put it on silent, we're doing this, you know, and kind of showing your kids balance. I talked to my older kids a lot of, you know, screens are great and like this tool is really helpful, but it can be addicting. And so I have like put it away. And that's why we're just careful about what we introduced to you. So you're modeling that kind of stuff through conversations just in the same way with AI that Mary Flo just did of, hey, this is really helpful, but we gotta be careful because it's not real. And so your point, Sissy, about the undressing and all that stuff, it really just goes back to these conversations, you know, take it all the way back to, well, what does that mean for a three or four year old? It goes back to those basic conversations that we've been saying for years is we don't look at other people's private parts. We have to be really careful of what we see on screens. There are some good pictures and bad pictures. We love that book, you know, and these are not one and done conversations. These are drip, drip, drip, and we are saying it all the time. You know, mommy's going to type in the password of the iPad because we got to be really careful around screens. And so we just to break it down. Sometimes you can see a scary headline like that and just think, what do we do? This is terrible. And, you know, when we were talking before this, we realized, you know, we said the phrase, which has been coming up a lot in parenting circles of there's nothing new under the sun. Now, of course, AI and undressing children, that's horrific, okay, and new. But generally speaking, you know, that the reaction should be the same is we should be aware of it, not in a complete panic and fearful. What does that translate to the children in my ages? That is just, you know, little by little conversations with them about we got to be careful around screens, body boundaries, you know, nobody else can look at your private parts. And we don't look at other people's private parts. If you see a bad picture, I want you to stop, run, and tell. So to just engage in our children and break it down into bite size conversations that they can digest at their age, you know, we don't need to sit down and say, there's a saying called AI that's addressing children and it's really bad. Like that is a lot of information for adults. And so again, we are the parents, how can we take in what's going on in the world and break it down into age appropriate, tangible talking tips to our kids to keep them safe. And so I think that is what I would just encourage parents is these reminders of these little conversations that happen at age two, three, four, and to continue those. And they evolve with your kids getting older, you know, the language might change, the consistency in these conversations might change, but overall, just to have a voice that sets those clear boundaries. This is so good, y'all. And I'm reminded again, no one helps us break down those overwhelming big conversations as thoughtfully as the two of you, which is why we love circling back to conversation with you both so often. So let's go one step farther into this part of our conversation. So many parents can assume that danger just comes from strangers and all four of us know it's more complicated than that. How would the two of you say that parents should think differently about who poses risk and how grooming actually works? That is one of those very difficult things because grooming is so devious and unmasking it is difficult. So with that in mind, you want to make them aware that there are some people who don't see life the way we see it, don't see their bodies, don't see relationships, they have something that's not right in their thinking in that regard. And we can't tell what people are thinking. So we have to pick up on certain cues. Now, there's a phrase that I think can be helpful when children are little, so not to lead to so much fear, but to say, this will probably never happen to you. So set them up for, you know, this is not lurking on every corner, but I just want you to be aware there are some people that don't think right about their bodies, other people's bodies, they don't understand boundaries, and that can be very harmful. So those people might ask you to take your clothes off, might ask you to look at their undressed body, they might do things like that. That is wrong no matter if they are an adult or an adult who's even in charge. And so this is something that we just need to make children aware of in the framework of this will probably never happen. But if you hear of a friend that it happens to, it all, it also goes back to the principle we give parents, don't keep secrets. Secrets are not safe, secrets are not healthy. Anyone that wants you to keep a secret is not your friend. Then we also have to go through the nuance of this might be someone you respect, but that is not respectful behavior towards you. So in that situation, you have my permission to hit, to kick, to scream, to run, to disobey what they're telling you to do. So there's, that's like 10 conversations in one. I would not necessarily bundle that all into one conversation, but I would eventually over time kind of unmask what can be the protection of the predator. The protection of the predator is they have a position of authority, they're nice, they give presents, they're wanting to be close to your child, they're acting nice to the parents, they're, you know, they're everybody's best friend, they don't look dangerous. That's, so they want to stay in that safe place. But in some regards, you have to understand a sheep in a wolf and sheep's clothing. Like, I know this sounds silly, but go back to all of Esop's fables. They have characters that are deceiving you. And so once again, it's not an easy conversation, but parents can't just throw it on kids in a very fearful way, but they can't shy away from it and ignore it. And these conversations should probably happen before, if they decide to do sleepovers, before, if they decide to do, can't. Before, you know, even like a church trip or a retreat or something like that. You're now going to, you know, but like not 10 minutes before they go there. It's a very, it's very nuanced conversations. You know your children, you know what their buttons are, and you don't want to drive them into fear. I'm probably spending too much time on this, but I'm just trying to explain that this is a conversation that should be had or a series of conversations, but they probably start when children are little about secrets. And I would add to that, you know, as I'm navigating this with my own children, I mean, not the horrific side of it, Lord willing, but just setting them up for this and also not living in this fear-based world where my kids have spent the night out without me. One of my kids does go to a summer camp. Like, so we're not living in this sphere of not doing anything where I am, I guess, put in in risky situations. But I think it's educated risk or a calculated risk, which I think is healthy. But for my kids who are almost 13, 11, and 8, I was rounding up, which I can't believe I know. Stay young forever. Anyways, all that being said, I have not necessarily introduced the idea of or the word predator or grooming. I haven't had those specifically black and white conversations. And yet, I still feel very confident in my children's ability to communicate towards me or my husband and to speak up for themselves and to know inside and verbally communicate. If something didn't, if something did happen, that would make them feel weird because I feel like for the past 10 plus years, 13 years, whatever, we have been having these conversations where this is something we talk about in our home. And that, I think, is what we try to do at Birds and Bees is to not make this taboo where it has to be this one sit-down conversation of, let me tell you about predators and groomers because this is really heavy. Now, it might have to be more forward about that as they get older and that's fine. But when they're little, just saying, we don't look at other people's private parts. Hey, the neighbors were over and y'all were upstairs playing doctor. That's not okay. We keep the door open while we play. We keep our clothes on while we play. If you take your clothes out at a friend's house, that's breaking the rules. We do not do that even if they say it's okay. And so just over and over again, we are saying these clear boundaries in their age-appropriate language so they know this is a line that isn't crossed. Mary Flo echoing what she just said is the secrets. That's another great thing we teach. It's like, we don't ever keep secrets in this family. If anyone asks you to keep a secret from me, that's a red flag. We don't do that. We love surprises. Surprises have an end date. You know, that surprises are fun. They make you happy. Yes, secrets can be hurtful. So we don't keep secrets in this house. And nobody should touch your private part. I mean, so there's lots of little conversations where I get it's taking this big, scary thing of grooming and breaking it down into these, you know, this, you're building resiliency and your kids are like, Hey, that's not okay. You're building this. Oh, I say that word to my mom a lot or my mom's always talking about that. You know, it's like, we are kind of breaking the ground by saying like, Oh, yeah, that's your penis. Nobody else should touch that. Okay, so they've heard me say that so many times that they're like, Well, you're not gonna believe what happened, mom, you know, because this is something we talk about in our home. And that's the tone that we're trying to create is just the safe home of, Yeah, that's not okay. And if something like that happens, come and tell me where I think sometimes parents, um, out of discomfort or whatever, things can become kind of secret or taboo in general. And there's some shushing and shaming that go on. So if God forbid, something does happen that doesn't feel right. They don't have that language to communicate to their parents. They don't know what to say, or they're embarrassed to say it because it's never spoken of. And so that's where real problems can start is when things are kind of hushed in secret. So I think it's important to set those boundaries when our kids are young and be very consistent. And then as parents, I think it's just a balance of being aware of the risks, you know, like I am very aware of sexual abuse numbers and statistics and reality. So of course in my brain, I'm looking at some basketball coach where I'm like, Well, who's this dude? You know, I'm not telling that to my kid. I'm just more I'm aware. I'm aware of the situation. I'm aware of the adults in my kids' lives. Well, who's that substitute? Who's that? You know, like I, so my brain, I might be hyper aware, but I'm not putting that on my kids. You know, I'm not telling them, watch, he's a weirdo, you watch out for him. You know, I'm not saying that to them, but I am mindful of what's going on around. And I'm aware of who's spending time with who. And so I'm making those decisions, but I'm not putting that fear into my young children, if that makes sense. But I'm equipping them with the tools that they need to communicate those clear boundaries while also making choices as the adult. So good, y'all. Thank you. So if you all had to say in this day and time, what would, what do you feel like are the most common blind spots for parents who are really well intentioned and engaged and doing their best? What are, what would still be in mist? I think we, I fact we say it all the time, so it kills like, how could you miss me? Maybe it's not being missed. I don't know. But I think a lot of the times that parents still think these conversations start later, you know, and I think that parents still think, oh, I don't need to talk about that because until my kids are in middle school or whatever. And particularly when it comes to screen safety, you know, exposure to pornography, all these dark topics that are involved screens. I think a lot of times parents think, well, I don't even need to, oh, that is icky and dark. And we will talk about that when they're 13 or something. And really, we're just kind of doing them a disservice. So I would say to start those conversations, like we mentioned earlier, by we got to be careful around screens. You know, if you see, you know, if you see a picture with someone's clothes off, that's not appropriate. You got to come and tell me you're not in trouble, but we've got to be careful with our eyes of what we see in breaking that down to conversations when they're little, because their exposure happens. I think the average age now is 11. And that statistic I know is several years old. So those are conversations that need to be happening early and often. Right. And I think that's one of the tricky parts about the birds and bees curriculum and our strategy is that by the time you think you need it, you needed it. Five years ago. Yes. How do we see that the biggest protection you can give their children, the biggest protection you can give your child is to start early with some of the most animal crackers, small conversations that just are part of their everyday life. And so that is your best protection is to really fill their mind with your values, with the facts, with an understanding in the most simple way. We don't, you know, just the boundaries around bath time or potty training or, you know, just all of these things that you're talking about their bodies anyway, just go ahead and use the right words, that you're breaking some of the hard conversations down in early years and then rebuilding them in a very positive way. You're also showing them how to have these conversations. You're not freaking out and reacting. I think most parents freak out and react and this system, this strategy is stay calm and prepare and be proactive instead of reactive. And so that's a blind spot that we have, that we carried on from a culture that just believes in the talk or still thinks that's an effective way to communicate. And that's, there's nothing effective about an awkward conversation at an awkward age. So erase that, let's start over and start young. So good. Okay, you have both offered such great wisdom in the space already, but any other ways you'd want to encourage parents to protect kids without raising them to be afraid of the world, ashamed of their bodies, ashamed of questions or curiosity? I think something we try to stress is your tone of voice. And for some parents, I think this comes naturally in some, it doesn't. So bake it till you make it. But I think it's tone of voice of like, it is what it is. You know, I think some of the phrase, but the very young ages, we don't take pictures of our private parts or we don't, you know, you never nobody should take pictures of your private parts or however it is. Well, that, you know, that's a very matter of fact way of saying it as a parent, you know, well, that's pretty horrific. You know, but we're not adding this heaviness of shame like, oh, sweetheart, I want to talk to you about something really serious, you know, and that's just like heavy. And so as they get older, I'm thinking of now like my middle, you know, playing some video games or whatever, be like, Hey, we're not doing the chat feature on these games, because you don't know these people. And that's weird. And sometimes people might ask you for pictures and stuff. I don't remember we never even if people say, I want to see you think it's like they might disguise himself and say, we want you to take a picture of your body. Absolutely not. And he's, you know, dying mom, mom, I'm just saying, like, you know, you never take your private part. And he's like, Oh my God, I'm like, I'm serious. He's just don't. And he's like, Okay, okay, my great, good, we're not doing it. You know, where it's like, this is a brief conversation while I'm alone in the dishwasher. And he's charging is I've, you know, this is not a sit down conversation about online predators. This is just a drip, drip, drip of, Hey, remember, we're not doing that. Right. Okay, good. Because if you do, it can get in a lot of trouble and X, Y or Z. So we're setting those clear boundaries. We're making it a non taboo topic in our home. And then we're also kind of paving that path of communication where it's, it's already been established. Oh, she talks about that. Or I know I could say something to her or like, Oh, there she goes again, or whatever the conversation is, we have kind of set forth that conversation, that pattern of communication, where it's this is something we talk about in our house. And so it's, I would say to not make it this heavy, emotional conversation, but to kind of have that tone of voice, I think can be really powerful in all these conversations. So to have that tone of voice of kind of it is what it is, or a matter of fact, tone of voice can be really helpful. And I couldn't agree more. Like you can see how that conversation with her middle school son is different than the one when they're very little. And there's just saying, we need to be careful around screens. So it just, it builds over the years. It's not a one and done situation. It's a, it's a, it's a way that you can keep talking to your kids. But I love that question about protective practices. What can we do? And I start thinking to, yeah, I really like that question. It gave me a lot to think about because I think sometimes we do set rules. We do set boundaries. We have guardrails, but we also have grace. And I also wanted to think about how, what are the things around a really healthy family that end up being their protection? And I would say having a good community of other families, like, I know, either you're really close to your neighbors or people in your church or your extended family, but having a network, so it's not always just your family. Of course, you need things that are just your family, but bearing the joys and sorrows of other people, the struggles, the, you know, what's going on and caring about them, loving them, serving with them, being involved with them. I know we had this circle of friends, then we prayed, we shared, you know, we didn't overshare, but I would say it was a safe place for us as parents and also for our kids. You built a really trustworthy community and bear their joys and sorrows. Also, I am a big fan of classic books and reading aloud in the home. It doesn't sound like a protective device, but situations that they're not going through are going on in the Chronicles of Narnia or are going on in Harry Potter or going on in Anne of Green Gables or, or, you know, like think about Anne of Green Gables. She had red hair, she couldn't stand it. And she was the smartest one in the class, she was the smartest one in the class and her competitor was a boy that she kind of liked. Well, welcome to, you know, 2020 CID. I don't think my body was only smart and people aren't paying attention to me and the one that I want to pay attention to, I'm in competition with, you know, so all of these situations, nothing new under the sun, nothing new, but how did, and she had been adopted and hadn't wanted to be that way. She has a lot of challenges in her life and we think of it as Anne of Green Gables. That's such a sassy story. You know, it's just such a sweet little sugar thing. No, it's got a lot of challenges that you can walk through with your kids. So I think reading time, thinking through how did they overcome that challenge in, in that situation? And what is courage? How do you show courage? What, what are you, you know, so it's all of those things that don't seem protective in the moment, have a reading time or to have community, but praying with your children, reading with your children, having them have a community, those end up being kind of the, the lattice work for, for family. And we were having this conversation ahead of time just because a lot of the questions were not our norm, which we like, you know, it's kind of fun. I'm like, we talk about fetuses and adjiness all the time. So this is a welcome, but when we were talking about this conversation, we thought, you know, kids, connection equals protection. And I think that is something if parents want to chew on that, I think it's like, you have to make time for connection. You know, and I think if you are going about your life with constant to and from practices, carpools, drop offs, pickups, you know, if we're constantly in motion, which it's so easy to be in this phase that we're in, or that I'm in, if we're not taking time to build in connection, that, that's the best way to think to protect our kids. But they, they know, okay, I feel safe in this moment, or, and I'm not trying to act like you have to have a sit down family dinner every single night, like we're in a season where I wish I could say that's true. But it's not. But, you know, at least a couple of times a week, we try to sit down and have dinner and, you know, share about your day or high low disco, you know, whatever, I think effort has different names for that type of game, but just a point touch point. And it might look like paper plates in someone's jumping up and down in someone's whatever, but a touch point or, you know, we're all in the car together, we're going to talk about X, Y, or Z. So it doesn't have to look a specific way. I don't want parents to get hung up on that. But I, to build in some downtime, to build in some together time, whether that's just making sure you can stay awake for that 30 minute chat at bedtime with your tween or whatever it is, because I think kids need to feel connected to make sure that to know that this is a safe place, because that's where certain things can come up of this happen today. Or I don't like the way this made me feel. Or how is that friendship going there? You know, I think kids need to feel safe with their parents and with their family to know like, this is where I can kind of go to exhale and kind of let my guard down a bit during the craziness of the day. And so I think just that phrase, kids coming back to me of connection equals protection. Obviously, these conversations are super important, being mindful of, you know, how you set up their iPad or, you know, who their friends are, what you allow them to do. But I really think just having a strong family unit, whatever that looks like, you know, everyone's family is different and set up differently. But to let them know that this is like a safe, this is a safe place. And I think you have to be mindful, particularly in certain seasons, to create margin for that connection time. And that's kind of where we started. Like everything is such a hurry. Just to look and see where can I, in our family, where can we kind of just pull back just a little bit, just so they know that safe. And also that we as parents are going to mess up. I was just thinking as we were talking earlier before we got to chat with you. I remember one time kind of freaking out over something that happened with one of my kids. And I really ended up going back and saying, and I didn't have that ton of voice I was looking for. And the one I always think I do have, like a calm voice, I kind of freaked out. And then, and nobody wants to then come back and tell you more if, if what they're going to, they're fearing that freak out again. So I think it's important for parents, even if you had a very good reason to freak out, to come back and say, I mishandled that, like to circle back as a parent and say, gosh, I wish I had to do over. Because if I had to do over, I would have said this, I left you this impression. And it that's not helpful for us in the future. So I'm just going to take the moment to tell you what I wish I had said, because it's important that we keep the conversation going. And you, you didn't deserve that. Like I over, I overreacted. And so I'm going to work on that. Because I do think we, you know, I think that happens sometimes. And we mess up. But I think as parents, we need to show them that we can circle back and apologize and have a do over. And then they can do that with us too. That's great, y'all. I mean, it's so many good things up like there's so many nuggets already of things I want to write down. I can't wait to tell my sister and brother in law to listen to this conversation. Y'all are so amazing. And now we're going to take a little break to hear from one of our sponsors who makes this podcast possible. Sissy, you are not going to believe what happened to me in the Orlando airport last week. Uh oh. Did you get stuck on the runway like we did last time? Not this time. Thank goodness. I was walking through the terminal and this mom stopped me so she could have her son tell me how much he loves his high of vitamins, which she found out about on our podcast. That is amazing. Then he told me all about his super power smoothie. 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This deal is not available on their regular website. Go to hiyahth.com slash RBG and get your kids the full body nourishment they need to grow into healthy adults. You know, we are firm believers that we all need a little more laughter and a whole lot more grace. And if you are raising a child with ADHD, dyslexia, autism or another learning and thinking difference, you know how intense some days can feel the advocacy, the school meetings, the meltdowns, the moments when you wonder if you're getting any of it right. If that hits home, we recently found a podcast we think you'll really appreciate. It's called Everyone Gets a Juice Box for Parents of Neurodivergent Kids. Check out a few episodes, including one about parenting regrets after an ADHD and autism diagnosis and another about how, quote, fine isn't always fine when it comes to dyslexia. You'll appreciate the tone, it's honest, it's warm, it's funny in the way that only parents who truly get it can be. You can hear the relief in their voices when they realize they're not alone. It feels like sitting down with other parents who understand the mysteries, the multiple diagnosis and the beauty in the middle of it all. If you could use that kind of community and encouragement, we really think you'll like it. To listen, search for Everyone Gets a Juice Box in your podcast app. That's Everyone Gets a Juice Box. And now back to our show. So we talked a little bit about discernment and intuition and helping kids develop that, which feels so important today. Is there anything y'all would say about how we really do practically help kids trust that internal voice, even when they're living in the midst of a culture that tells them not to, that it's telling them to overreact or that whatever it is that they want to say is awkward? That seems to be their favorite and most avoidant word. I don't want to be awkward. I don't want to make things awkward. My kids keep telling me, mom, it's not the 1990s. Okay, I just want to listen to somebody. If you see them at the grocery store, you could say, hi, because they're in your class. And if it's not the 1990s, like, okay, well, we're rude. I would say it's kind of like what I mentioned a little bit earlier, like, it's a mindfulness, I guess, as a parent to kind of build that muscle. And so I feel like what I'm trying to do as my older two are getting, I'm talking about those two just because my little one still feels like no one takes pictures of your private parts conversations, you know, which seems sweet, my older two. And they're still, you know, right now, the 10 and 12. So we're not that old. But noticing things that they're doing as a positive example and complimenting them later. And so I think that that's, you know, positive affirmation, I think can be a very powerful tool. But even like as we're dabbling in text messaging and that kind of stuff with my older one. And of course, they've kind of gives away the fact that I've read some of her texts. But just like, hey, I really liked how you kind of stuck up for that person in that group text. That was really, that was really kind of you. And I know you didn't have to say that, but I'm really proud of you for saying that, you know, or kind of having some nuanced conversations of like seeing something that they're doing and praising that, because I think that helps them so much more than trying to correct something bad, not to say that you shouldn't correct bad things. But so same thing with resilient or resiliency and intuition or kind of their gut is to kind of go back and find the time they did that, you know, you were hesitant about this for a reason. And so you kind of change your plan. But I'm really proud of you because I think you did the right thing there. You know, I think you really listened to that. So to kind of just affirm situations where they use that discernment, even if it's a silly thing, you know, but you really had showed good discernment there. So getting kind of back to that labeling and like praising. Yes. And seeing them, catch them doing something right. You know, you included that friend. I'm really that meant a lot to me to see you include that friend that maybe the other kids didn't want to include. That's big in my book. You know, just just let them know other, you know, other people notice she she is shy and you you pulled her in. And that was I saw you do that. And that was really kind. Or you got put on the bench, but you were cheering for your teammates. And I saw that. That's amazing. You wanted to be out there. You wanted to be, you know, scoring. But when you were on the bench, you were clapping for them. And I saw that boy, I really respect that. So I think you're reinforcing just what what Megan was saying, that when you see them taking those little baby steps towards doing the right thing, you just encourage that to keep up with that. And there was some parenting expert I was listening to. There we are again. But in it, they going on this idea of positive affirmation, which we're getting a little off track here, but I think it's helpful. She uses this expression of don't water the weeds. And I think it's so often as parents, myself included, I try to bite my tongue because it's so easy to verbalize the bad things or speak into the bad things. If don't do this, don't do that, do this differently. And I like that. Like, and so the watering the weeds is that you're putting your words onto all the bad things. And instead of putting them on the positive thing. So all those examples, we just shared, it's really kind of help hone and encourage all the good things they're doing. And as they get older, that the discernment, the choices they're making, the risks they're taking, all those things. Okay, we love to explore this with the two of you. If, if a child or adolescent were to encounter something unsafe in person online, what response from a parent would you say makes it more likely they'll come back and tell us something else? Part of it is that tone of voice that we've used. How as they're muddling in their mind, should I tell mom? Should I tell dad? What do I, as they're making that choice to open their mouth and share that? What are they going to remember how you talked about things and how they made you feel? And so being what we keep talking about being that safe refuge for them being that safe place, honing your own listening skills. Don't jump at the first thing you hear, but wait and let them tell the whole story. Asking good questions, trying to stay calm, being that safe place for them is going to give them the confidence to come, to come back to you. Don't let too much time have gone by before you've had some of these conversations. Megan used to talk about how as your kids get older, like here you are, here they are, but the path between you can kind of grow up with kind of things between you. You haven't talked about that in a long time. So if you haven't talked about things that can happen online or things that can happen in person in a long time, maybe you bring it up. Do you ever hear about things at school? I know in the debt that sexting was an issue last year. Are you hearing about that again? So that you can bring it up and they're like, okay, I guess it's okay for me to talk about this because actually last week something did happen. And knowing that you have initiated the conversation gives them confidence to bring it up maybe next time. Because I think so many times parents think, well, if anything happens, they'll tell me, well, have you made it clear that you're willing to talk about things that are really hard like that? So I would say if it's been a while since you've had some of these conversations, look for opportunities to talk about them. And I would say just to kind of add my thoughts on that, if like if a kid came to me that they had seen something or did something wrong or you know, been exposed to something online, I think initially I would just try to, depending on the situation, but maybe like a hug and I'm so glad you told me or I'm so proud of you for telling me. And kind of starting with that, I think as opposed to like what? Oh my god, what are we, give me that, you know, or whatever our reaction is, I think the, if you could just train yourself for the initial response, like, oh, I'm so proud of you for telling me. And I am, you know, and so to kind of shift it, I think initially that would, I don't know, change some of the conversation and reaction where immediately they might feel like, okay, I did the right thing. Now you might feel a bit in trouble, you know, this is not just like a, it's all over, but I love that hug. That's so important. So good. Okay, there's so many things that you all said, I literally was just thinking, I'm going to go upstairs with Henry and Whit and make a little drip drip, just about our conversation and all the good things you said. So if you, if there was one primary thing today that you wanted parents to remember to protect kids in today's culture, would love to hear. And I definitely want people to go back and listen to this over and over and over because there are 80 things that you've said that we need to listen to to protect kids. But if you all had to narrow it down to one to end with, what would it be? Gosh. I think speaking up at an early age is their greatest protection. We give an example in our course about, imagine there's a sponge in your child's mind and that you can label that sponge curiosity about sexual things. They're born with that sponge. It's there. You didn't put it there. They're born with it. But who will fill that sponge? And if you as the parent are putting in biblical knowledge, your own values, you're putting in practical helps, you're saying, by God's design, this is how a baby's born. We have a beautiful story to tell. But have we told the story? Have we filled the sponge? And then as they're older, what happens with a full sponge? They're going to hear other things. They're going to encounter other values. But if it's a full sponge, then those things somewhat just roll off because the sponge is full. But if there's nothing there, then you are allowing that sponge that goes with your child wherever they go to take in that the power of the first impression then goes to the culture. And so we would just tell parents if it's so simple, but if you will start when they're young and get the messages you want them to have about sex in there, that will be the protection wherever they go because it's in there. And not that nothing, not that that will protect them from anything that will happen. I don't mean to say that. We don't know. We don't know. Bad things can happen, but they will have a layer of protection that they would have not otherwise had because they got to hear some of these really important things from you first. And it's never too late. Right. And I think that's right. And I think that's what I would say is if you're listening and your kids are really little, I think the most tangible takeaway is maybe start talking about body parts and private parts and establishing that clear boundary and kind of early and often, oh, yep, that's a private part. No, it touches your private parts. Oh, we keep the door open while we play. We don't touch private parts. We don't look at our neighbors. You know, all these conversations start talking about private parts and body boundaries. Very matter of fact. And if you're sitting here as a parent who has older kids and you're thinking, well, shoot, I've never done this, you know, completely repeating what Mary Floyd just said is we think sooner is better than later, but later is better than never. And so you are not. Those conversations may not sound as organic as some of these like, you know, seeds and eggs and bath time stories and whatever. But if you have a 13 year old, you think, I've never talked about this or my 14 year old, oh my gosh, he's had a phone for two years and we've never talked about this. You are the parent, you are the authority. And so I would just start talking, hey, oh, we have never talked about this. And I'm so sorry. But did you know that people are sending pictures of their private parts? I know. I mean, that might sound like stupid or silly, or it might sound interesting. I don't know how you're reacting. But this is like the leaf, these are the legal consequences about this, or this is what's happening. Or these are the schemes that some people are doing to try to get money out of people. Have you heard about this? Well, it's real. It's if you ever get yourself in that situation, dad might can actually help you out of something awful, instead of you trying to hide it. So I just need you to know this is going on out there. You know, I mean, so again, it's like a, it's never too late. I mean, obviously, I think those conversations are going to be happening, even if you've done the drip drip drip, like that's just another conversation. So I would say it's never too late. And I think for parents with young kids are listening, just start talking about private parts and body boundaries. You too. I was thinking the example you used at the top of our conversation about the pilot and the plane, and I was thinking how grateful I am that the two of you are piloting this plane in the space, because these, you know, to stay with that analogy, these are turbulent times and the steadiness of both of your voices, the wisdom of all these years of work in this space that you offered to parents. I just feel so much more at peace for parents listening because you equip and encourage in this space in such an extraordinary way. So grateful for you both, more than I could communicate. Me too. We love you guys. They are so encouraging kind. Thank you. And I feel the same. I feel the same. I feel everybody. The voices in my head are David and Sissy. And I talk about you guys like you're my best friends. I think you are. So it works. But I mean, I'm constantly, we direct people your way. Oh, yeah. All the time. Yeah, all the time. Thank you for being with us. Thank you very much. Thank you for being with us. David, what a team we have that we get to call friends who help make this podcast possible. Chris Sterrett, our engineer, our management team at KCH. We are thrilled to be a part of the That Sounds Fun Network. Our music was created by the insanely talented Dave Haywood of Lady A. And if this podcast felt helpful to you, please consider subscribing, liking, sharing all the things. We are grateful for you and cheering you on always. Love the vivid imagery, scriptures, and sound effects, while parents appreciate the apply section for meaningful conversations. 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