20 minutes a day, 365 days a year. This is the Pack a Day podcast. What's going on Packers fans? Welcome into an all new episode of the Pack a Day podcast. I'm your host Andy Herman. You can follow me on Twitter at Andy Herman NFL can find the podcast at Packaday Podcast. Super excited today as we are joined by the one and only Pete Doherty, PackersNews.com. Pete, I am so incredibly excited to discuss all things Green Bay Packers with you, but before we get there, how are you doing, my friend? I'm doing well. How about you? I'm doing great. It's the off season. We're just about to hit free agency as a disclaimer to everyone, as I've been giving a lot of people on these. We're recording this on February 18th in the afternoon. This is probably going to air sometime end of February. So I'm thinking next Friday as we're recording this now, But for those out there, just know that there may have been some things that have happened in the Packers sphere. We are right after Rich Passaccia stepped down as special teams coordinator. But Pete, it's already been an interesting offseason. Lots of coaching changes. Now Rich Passaccia stepping aside. Any just sort of gut feel or major takeaways from the offseason so far? Yeah, well, you know, a lot has happened because they, you know, they lost a lot of staff. Now, I know, you know, everybody wanted them to get rid of, you know, basically everybody on their staff. And so now they did on defense, which is probably the side that people didn't want to see less movement from. But, you know, I thought both Gannon and Jim Leonard were really good candidates. I would have been really intrigued if they had hired Jim Leonard. You know, I wondered if he's like a star in the making. but Gannon I think you know is a was a really good candidate too so I've got to think their their defensive hands are their their defense is at least in pretty decent hands there with that hire and I I've got to think he would have wanted to make over the staff to a certain degree anyway there was probably a guy or two LaFleur wanted to keep but it didn't seem like they had any qualms about losing any of these guys that they did because LaFleur runs or Gannon runs a different defense than halfley did so yeah the interesting ones especially in the secondary with like ansley and downard where i think they probably could have blocked those those elsewhere and just didn't seem you know to care and said yep you can go wherever you want and they did um and then yeah the one right now at least as we're recording this it's it seems like covington is going to be back on the defensive line but covington has experience in multiple fronts so that one probably makes a little bit more sense yeah he came he was a really respected guy uh coming to i remember when they hired him talking and you know he had a he had a rough year that one the rough years his one year as a defensive coordinator in New England but everything I hear is they really really liked him as a defensive line coach I mean that's why they you know promoted him to defensive coordinator for that one season yeah I think he's going to do uh continue to do a good job I like getting Bobby Babich in the secondary as well I think they've assembled a pretty good staff all things considered and again as of recording this now the big thing is going to be who they hire a special teams coordinator, you kind of made mention the fan base seemed to want some sort of blood this offseason, meaning whether that be Goody, Matt, probably not Jeff Affleck, like you mentioned, Rich Passaccio is definitely on that list of, you know, people wanting changes, Luke Butkus, who seems like he's probably going to be back at this point in time, Adam Stenovich. And instead, we at least it looked like they wanted to keep Passaccio, although again, now he's gone. Steno seems like he's going to be back. Butkus seems like he's going to be back. We know LaFleur and Goody and Russ Ball and the powers that be are going to be back. And there seems to be at least some in the fan base that feels like there is a lack of accountability or a level of complacency within the Packers organization. Pete, you've been doing this a long time and covering the Green Bay Packers for a long time. I wanted to start today by kind of getting your thoughts on this idea that the Packers have a level of complacency or aren't making the moves that they need to or are just sticking with the status quo for the sake of sticking with the status quo. And to be fair, Matt LaFleur and Brian Gutekindst in their era so far have not been able to get them to, or passed an NFC championship game, have not been able to get them to a Super Bowl, much less win it. They've won two playoff games. They've lost a lot of playoff games and they just haven't been able to get over the hump. How do you view that overall sort of talking point this off season? Yeah, I mean, I totally get it because it's always a question in any endeavor, you know, a business, whatever, is there accountability? One thing I'd say is there's no less accountability in Green Bay than there is anywhere else in the league. I mean, you know, who are owners accountable to? Right. Nobody. You could argue there's a little more accountability here because the CEO is accountable to the executive committee and the board. and the board and the executive committee can fire the CEO. They've pushed, you know, it's a little murky, the history, but, you know, they've pushed a couple guys out. It hasn't happened since I've been covering, but if you go back to, I think Dominic Olenicek was basically pushed out and replaced by Judge Perrins, and I think there was a couple guys in the 30s and 40s where some of that was going on. So, you know, there is theoretical accountability there, which there isn't with, you know, with any other franchise, because no one can do whatever he wants with his team. But, you know, for there to be real accountability, the, you know, the people running the thing, whether it be the owner, the CEO, the executive committee, they have to have a high standard. And so it just depends on their decision making. It was funny, I was just talking to Bob Harlan this week about, you know, we, I was just working on something about, you know, when the, when he hired Wolf and he's, you know, we were just talking and he said, you know, he would get people after he hired Wolf, he got people complaining to him. You guys aren't trying to win. All you're trying to do is make money. And it's the same thing we're hearing now. Right. And now I think we look back on the Harlan era. Does anybody think that, you know, they weren't trying to win with him and Wolf? I mean, obviously they were. So I think this has probably been, this has probably been something that's been going on since the 20s, as far as the Packers go, as far as I know. So I get it. I totally get it because it does, this does have a whiff of complacency. I don't think that's what it is. I think Ed Policy knows that this was a really big decision he made and he's got a lot riding on it. And so I don't think he did it willy nilly. And maybe two years from now, he'll be, you know he'll wind up making a change to general manager and coach but um I don't think it's a sign of complacency I you know I think he knows you know his legacy is on the line on these big decisions like this so um I'm not in his head so maybe there is a complacency here where good enough is good enough but um I can't say I get that sense from whenever I've talked to him or you know seen him in the press briefings. No, I don't get that feeling either. And the other thing I'll say too is, just as an organization, if you're looking for some sort of evolution or if you're looking for some sort of change or a sign of non-complacency, to me, trading two first-round picks and Kenny Clark for Micah Parsons screams, we're not complacent. We're trying to get better. We're trying to do everything we can to win. I just don't, you know, they gave a massive contract to Jordan Love paying a bunch of money up front, in signing bonus so that that opens up salary cap space elsewhere and they can maneuver some things if need be. I don't see based on their actions that this is a team that's like, you know what, just getting in the playoffs or being 9-8 or 10-7-1 is good enough. And we certainly didn't hear that from Goody, especially a year ago when he said, it's time for us to start winning championships. And one of my big takeaways from Goody's press conference is you could tell a couple weeks after the season was over, he was still pretty pissed off about how things went. He did not seem super happy with how the season ended up. That was actually my biggest takeaway was he must have referenced the five losses to end the season I don know three times Yeah he probably was four or five And nobody asked him about it He just would bring it up as an aside So yeah I think it really bothered him And you know I mean even you look back to Aaron Rodgers last two years they mortgaged every contract. They literally took their cap to the hilt on that to try to put as good a team around them as they could. They had real limitations because of COVID, but they mortgaged every contract they could. You know, they do have, there is an organizational philosophy, I think, where they're striving rather than generally just going all in 100% and mortgaging every year like New Orleans did for Drew Brees' last four or five years. instead of doing that, they want to, they, I think they're thinking is if we're a very, if we're a really good team year after year, somewhere in there, in some of those years, we're going to be things, it's going to be a good year, like 2010, things will come together. The more chances you give yourself to win the Superbowl, the more, you know, the better chance you have of doing it rather than going all in for a couple of years, you'd set it up. So you always have some flexibility for a decade straight. I think that's kind of their, they've been operating like that since, you know, Ted Thompson's era, at least. So that's, you know, going on, that's 20 years or so. So, but how many teams are, you know, look at New Orleans, they totally went for it. And all they did was kept digging a deeper hole. So. And never won the championship. No, no, didn't even, you know, they never even got to the Super Bowl a second time. So it worked for the Rams that one year. And then they, then they, but that GM must be good because they built that up fast. And this time they didn't say FM picks. They did it with their picks. They did it. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. They, they did a great job of drafting to rebuild that. This is, this is a bites at the apple franchise. They always talk about it in the draft. They want more bites at the apple. That's a great way to put it. Yeah. And in the day, thanks for saying in five words, what I said in two and a half minutes. That's funny because I'm usually the opposite. I'm usually the one that talks on and on and on. and doesn't make it succinct. So, but that's what they are. They're the bites of the Apple franchise. They want as many opportunities in the playoffs and hopefully get hot that one year and win a championship. And they want as many bites of the Apple and usually free agency in the draft, et cetera. And that's how they build it. That's how they go about it. But I do think that you're right. And I agree with you a hundred percent. It does feel like even Goody has said, like we don't believe in, or he doesn't believe in a Superbowl window or a championship window, which I personally, I don't know if he fully believes that or if he's just saying it, I also kind of just genuinely disagree with it a little bit, but they kind of believe that they can keep building a playoff team year after year. And when you have good quarterback play, it certainly makes it better to do or easier to do that. But I do wonder if this, the Micah Parsons transaction was a little bit of way to push the envelope a little bit more and say, all right, you want a big swing. Here's our big swing. 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You have one good draft and look at the Rams. They had one good draft. Two, but one especially where they rebuilt their defense with their first two picks. The window opens up instantly. So who are the Patriots this year? I know they didn't win it, but look at the Patriots this year. And they got maybe some luck along the way, but yeah, exactly. Drake may, and then an off season where you've got early picks, they sign a bunch of free agents and boom, they're back in the Superbowl. Yeah. And, and, and don't get me wrong. Those windows can stay shut for a long time. Hello Cleveland and Arizona, but you know, they do though. They, they, they open fast and they close fast. I think of that 2010 team. I remember writing after they won the Superbowl, man, this team's future looks incredible. All their players, except Charles Woodson are 27 and younger. And yet the next year, and they were really good the next year, but Woodson, he got old, he got a little older and he went from being a great player to a really good one. And a year or two after that, they were an old team, a year after that they were an old team. So it's, it just, it opens and closes really fast. You got to keep replenishing. And that's where having a top quarterback, that's why it means everything because you can really open those windows if you have a really good quarterback all it takes is a couple really good personnel moves and you're right back there I remember 2010 too I remember going into 2010 and saying like this is going to be a fun season but 2011 is probably the year that everything's going to kind of click together and where they're going to be a little bit more experienced and then 2010 they win it 2011 they're out in the first round or at the divisional round I guess but um yeah you just never know how these things are going to go going back to what you said earlier as well I meant to to say something when you you know we're kind of talking about how kind of the idea of this team's not trying to win or they're not going to be able to win with a certain coach or whatever. I remember too, in the McCarthy era, you know, early on before he won the Super Bowl, I was arguing with friends and family members because they were saying, well, McCarthy's never going to win a Super Bowl in Green Bay. He's not going to be able to do it. He's not the right coach for it. He doesn't have the mentality. And then lo and behold, he wins it. So it's just, I know I say this often and it maybe just doesn't resonate, but it is really freaking hard to win at the highest of levels in the NFL and to get there and win it. And I, I, I'll be honest, Pete, I struggle with it at times because if you ask me from a Packers standpoint, if like, if they don't win the Superbowl, is it a successful season? There's a part of me that wants to say like, no, it's like they're, they're in it to win a Superbowl and the Packers would probably tell you the same thing, but man, is that an insane bar to set every single year to be like, well, Superbowl or we're going to end in disappointment and we have to tear everything down and get mad about everything. It just, it's a, it's a weird concept and I don't know how to totally, you know, make the two things resonate. It is. Yeah. They don't, they're kind of incompatible. I mean, it's Lombardi, you know, there are two, two places first and last, you know, there's, there's truth in that, but there's also a lot of truth in, everybody in this league has similar resources and, you know, financial and, you know, the, the, the community of scouts and coaches, you know, they all have access to hiring and firing these people. so it's you know the the different the margins are so slim between teams and it is really hard to win the super i mean basically look at the last i don't know 25 years who's won the super bowl tom brady and patrick mahomes those those two guys have been you know they're they're transcendent players at the position where that has the by far the biggest impact of any in any team sport. And so they've dominated the thing. And then what Philadelphia has won a couple. I think somebody else has maybe won two, but it's just, you know, things have to fall into place unless you have one of those two great quarterbacks. So it's hard to build even Seattle with those great defenses, man. Those were outstanding. Those were incredible defenses and they won one Super Bowl and lost one So it it a it a it is really tough to win it And you know the standard here should be high And I get it hard to be a fan because you know you get your emotions involved and it hard to turn those off And, you know, so I understand the dissatisfaction. I pushed a shove. I probably would have made the change with LeFleur and I would have made Gutekunst, you know, GM like in the Wolf-Thompson model and let him either decide LeFleur's fate or fire LeFleur and let Gutekunst hire the next guy. But I do get why policy decided to keep him. And maybe two years from now, like I said earlier, maybe two years from now, he's making a change, you know. But we don't know that LaFleur can't win it. You know, Bill Cowher didn't win it till what? Was it his 12th year, I think? So, yeah, I think it was his 12th season. So, you know, policy, he knew this was a big decision. And if things don't get any better in the next two years, he's going to have huge pressure to make a change. And, you know, if things are still not going anywhere five years from now, you know, there could be an uprising on the board and the executive committee and it can end up costing, you know, policy his job. So he's, you know, he's he's the one who's got to live with these decisions. And if they win a Super Bowl, they'll all be getting even richer extensions in a couple of years from now. So they'll be naming streets after. It'll be legendary. That's the razor thin margins in the NFL is just remarkable. Let me ask you this. I'm curious your thoughts because there's also this idea that, you know, the Packers would be better if the the NF or if the Packers media and the beat writers and everyone held the Packers more accountable and ask tougher questions in the media room and things like that. A, what is your thoughts overall on that? And then B, how do you feel like the beat, the powers that be, the media, etc. Handle those situations with the Packers right now. I don't want to lead you in any direction, so I'll let you go first. Yeah. I mean, you know, one thing that I think is probably tough for fans to understand, and I get it because they're not, you know, they don't go through all the, they don't do the stuff that we do on a daily basis. You know, when you're mad, you want somebody to ask a question like they're angry at them. Well, I'm not, when the Packers lose, I'm not mad at them, you know, and I think we're obliged to conduct ourselves in a professional manner just as they are. So you just try to ask straightforward, blunt questions. That's what I try to do anyway, is I try not to sugarcoat it or push an answer one way or the other. I just try to ask, you know, blunt questions. And I think the media overall, the media in Green Bay does a good job. I mean, Rob Demoski, Bill Huber, Tom Silverstein, Ryan Wood, you know, you're there asking questions. You know, you ask professional, straightforward questions. I mean, I think the questions get asked, it's just, they're not asked in an angry manner. And the answers are often unsatisfactory because there's just only so much they're going to say publicly for any variety of reasons, including they're not going to criticize players. The coach doesn't want to do that because he could lose the locker room if he's doing that all the time. Imagine your boss standing in front of the world and in front of cameras telling you what a horrible job you were doing. You know, how's, how's that going to go over with you? How are, how motivated are you going to be to do a good job for that guy? You know, you got to think about things like that. Their coaches are always talk. They many have told me they're almost always talking to the locker room, you know, when they talk to the media, not always, there are times where they're defending themselves or they have a different agenda, but most of the time they're talking to the locker room. So long story short, I, yeah, I think our media does a good job. You know, this, this idea that New York's media is this really tough media. I've watched a couple of those Aaron Rogers press conferences. We were much, we asked much more pointed direct questions of him than, than the New York media did. Look how well it's doing for the jets and the giants though, with those hard hitting questions and how successful those organizations have been over the past, you know, a couple of decades that they have not won any games whatsoever. But yeah, I think the thing is, is mostly ridiculous. And to your point too, you know, so first of all you know matt schneidman did ask specifically are you coaching for your job i forgot to mention for sure sorry no for sure and he asked in season like are you you know are you coaching for your job and i would be willing to bet and i was it was the right question i thought it was the right timing and he even you could tell he was trying to figure out exactly the way you wanted to word it understandably so i bet we all could have pretty much said and i think actually matt predicted exactly what matt was going to say from a response from it he was going to say i'm always coaching for my job and you know so like you also have to be cognizant sometimes of like is it are you asking the question you know you're just not going to get the risk you still probably have to ask it at a certain time but like we we all knew exactly the the type of response he was going to give in that situation and so how much value does it get sometimes to even ask the question in the first place but yeah there's always that balance of when how the exact verbiage of it and knowing kind of what answer you're going to get in response yeah i think at lefleur's season ending press conference, I'm pretty sure Bill Huber asked him some form of, are you the guy to lead this organization going forward? I mean, it was almost word for word. That was, you know, what it was, it was either why do you think you're the guy or are you the guy to lead this organization going forward? And I mean, that's, you know, I don't know how else you could ask. I mean, the one thing fans I think need to understand is, you know, we're not mad at these guys because they lost the game. So, you know, we're not going to ask, I'm not going to ask angry questions. I just want to ask a straightforward question and get a straight, as straightforward, a possible as an answer, knowing that a lot of times they're just not gonna, you have to read between the lines for, for what they say. I got another one for you. Cause I'm interested in this as well. And you can go in any direction that you want in this, or we can punt on it too. There's been, I feel like a blurring of the lines between what I would consider traditional media and sort of non-traditional media. I'm probably a piece of that because I get to be in there credentialed asking questions as well. But I am a very non-traditional media entity. Aaron Nagler is a non-traditional media entity. Then you have others like Justice Mosqueda, Peter Bukowski, amongst others. And then you have the more traditional side, which is obviously all of PackersNews.com, Rob Domovsky, Bill Huber, Matt Schneidman, etc. And they are, you know, again, a more traditional form of things. But yet it seems a lot of times from a fan standpoint, there's a blending of the two and it just all gets grouped in to Packers media. And, you know, I get considered a beat guy. I don't consider myself a beat guy at all. I'm not there every day. You guys are in the locker room every day, etc. There's a difference. A, is that a problem? B, is there, you know, should there be a better understanding slash distinction? Again, any direction you want to go in. I'm just curious your thoughts of maybe more of that, that differences of what those non-traditional and traditional media sort of bring to the table. I mean, I don't consider it a problem as far as I think there's there's room for, you know, everybody on this stuff. You know, it's only it's only a problem in that. You know, I think the people who consume the news, you know, look, they got lives to live and jobs and all that. Just to be a little more attuned to who who does what. Agreed. You know, like a different example, I got a question in my mail, my mailbag this week about NFL.com had a guy who ranked the Packers draft this year after the season as the 32nd draft, gave it a D plus. And I think he was, he was doing it mostly based on how much they contributed this year. But by putting a grade on it, he basically was great at, you know, making it sound like he was great in the class. And these fans are really concerned how, you know, this terrible, horrible draft. and and you know this this guy has to he works for nfl.com and he's got a crank out you know national copy and he's got he's got to produce stories but I looked at his back I just quick checked on him he'd covered some baseball stuff some basketball stuff he's not a film guy you know so he's not watching all the tape he didn't quote or make any allusions to that he talked to scouts he just looked at how much each guy played and he has a feel for you know hey this rookie made an impact this didn't and which teams did well and which didn't, but you know, he doesn't, he, he can't know just like, I couldn't sit down and grade everybody's draft. Are you kidding me? You know, there no way So you know I I just hope readers educate them you know educate themselves on these things and realize so this is this is where this guy coming from is coming from This is news This is somebody just offering their opinion It would help because it's not a monolith, as you say. There's a lot of different niches, and there's a place for all of them. And if I were a Packers fan, I would consume all of it. And I would just try to understand the differences between them and what each one is up to and what each one's function is. we'll be right back I love that and I'm the exact same way I think there's oxygen for everybody I think there's a seat at the table for everybody I love listening to people like Dusty Evely and um you know uh Justice Miskata breakdown film of different plays and things like that I love um you know obviously the job that you guys do on the beat and getting in there and interviewing people every single day and being actually in the press conferences every day. And then you get the analytics people that are nerding out over every single number and statistic and DVOA. And I love looking at that aspect because I feel like where you can find out the most is when there's a discrepancy between something. When maybe the people in the locker room are saying, you're like, yeah, this player is doing really well. And then the analytics people are saying like, oh, he's doing okay. And then the film people are being like, oh, he's terrible. And it's like, all right, well, that's where there's nuance and difference. It's like now I want to explore that even more. But I do think there's room at the table for everybody. But I do think it is really important to understand what access, what knowledge, what motivations people have going into everything. Because I do think it would serve a little bit better to kind of understand the information that they're consuming. Yeah. And I keep an eye on all these things. And I really enjoy listening. Like when you and Justice, I listen every week when you and Justice, I enjoy hearing those conversations. And it's because it's, you know, it's stuff that I mean, I'm not a film guy like you guys are. And Justice has his connections in the scouting world. So it's it's educating and it's it's great to listen to. And so I keep my eye on all this stuff. And, you know, I think 15 years ago, you know, people from my side were dismissive of all that stuff, you know. But it was just because of people, you know, they didn't come in through the traditional doorways that, you know, that that we did through journalism school and all that. But, you know, you don't need to have gone to journalism school to be able to do this. Anybody can do it. It's not, you know, it ain't, what do they call it, rocket surgery? It ain't rocket surgery, you know. Love it. Love it. All right, a couple of quick ones for you before we get you out of here. You mentioned this a little bit earlier, I think to some extent, but, you know, Matt and Goody did just get those extensions. What is sort of your idea of what type of leeway or runway that they have to see this through to get Green Bay ultimately to a championship destination? This is my, just my speculation. I'm thinking that this gives them two years to improve on what they've done. Now, I don't think that means they have to win a Super Bowl in the next two years, but they've got to get deep in the playoffs and, you know, take that, show that they can take that next step. I don't know that it would be three. I'm thinking, you know, I think it bought them a free year is not the right way to put it, but they bought them two years to really get this thing going and to see how deep they can go. And if they're in the same, basically the same spot two years from now that they are now, then, you know, I just, I would, I would guess there would be a change. I don't know. That's, that's my thinking. Like if they miss the playoffs next year, for instance, for what, you know, big injuries, whatever. I don't think any, I think the head coach and GM are okay. But if that happens next year and then the year after that, they have a, just an okay year, then I think there'd be change. I know Goody may not agree with me on windows, but it does feel like there's this window and the Jordan love Micah Parsons, you know, and sort of current era where things are at right now. And it just felt like, you know, when they traded for Micah, they felt like Matt and Goody and everyone were the people that ultimately get them to that destination, that Micah was going to be the one that was going to kind of put them over the top. And we just never got to see the final product because Zach Tom and Micah Parsons and everyone, you know, we know all the injuries, you know, Devontae Wyatt and Tucker Craft were all out at the end of the year. We never really got to see what that looked like. And so now I think they want to give this next couple of years with everything intact and hopefully staying healthy, then the opportunity to see this through. And if at the end of this, in a couple of years from now, like you said, it hasn't gone according to plan, whether they didn't make the playoffs or continue to be eliminated in the first round, I think they will look at a pretty significant, I don't know if I want to use the word rebuild, but new ideas, maybe new GM, new coach, et cetera, to try to get this thing back where it can be in a championship contender sort of space. Yeah. And I think they've, you know, they've got, there is a good talent base on this team and they've got, you know, I mean, Parsons is just an absolute stud. Like I knew, obviously he was really good, but it was kind of eyeopening to see him in person. I didn't know he played as hard as he does. Yeah. You know, snap in, snap out. So, you know, there's a great, there's a good talent base here. Other teams with better, yeah, there's probably, there are, but there's a good talent base. You know, they don't have a great cap situation, but it's good enough where they, you know, they can add players. I think the hard part is going to be finding guys worth adding who are worth, you know, whatever it'll cost to get them. You know, they lost those top, those first round picks, you know, with the Parsons trade, but they got a great player for it. And, you know, they still have their other picks and you can hit on guys who can make a difference. You know, you find an Evan Williams, you've really helped your team, you know, and that was a fourth round pick, Zach Tom, same thing. So there are resources there and there, you know, there's good reason to have a high standard here right now because they've got a lot of things going for them. And so, yeah, I think it's totally fair to give them, you know, no more than two years to at least show that they, if they don't win a Super Bowl, that they're right there on the cusp of it. Yeah, I think so, too. I think they're going to have to go out and show that if they want to see that through a little bit further. And again, winning one would certainly answer all those questions. And we wouldn't have to have the conversations on Goody, Matt, Jordan, some of these other ones of where they stand and if they're good enough, etc. Winning one would take care of all that altogether. Pete, I cannot thank you enough. Love this conversation. We definitely need to do this more often. Where can we find all of your incredible work and anything you want to plug on the way out? Well, the same place as always, PackersNews.com. You know, we'll have – I'm actually going to the Combine next week, so Goudacous does a sit-down with the local media and then a press conference that's open to everybody. So we'll have some – what should be some pretty interesting stories off of that. And things are heating up. This is your season. This is draft season, Andy. I'm looking forward to hearing your podcasts and picking out who they're going to pick and who they should pick. And it's, it's awful tough when that first pick is, what was it? 50, whatever. 52. Yeah. That's I've got to, I'm going to have to make a prediction and that's, it's going to be impossible. I don't know. I mean, it's hard enough to do it when they're picking 20th, let alone 52nd. The LVN picks, the 14, the 12 one is, is tough enough to do. You can usually narrow it down to like three, four or five guys. When they're in the twenties, you can narrow it down maybe six or seven. Yeah. You get to 52. I mean, you don't even know which 51, you know, you know, maybe like 30 of the guys that are going to be gone ahead of them, but there's another 20. You don't even know who's going to be there or gone, et cetera. And of course, you know, I'm, you know, relatively sure it's going to be a corner or defensive tackle. And so it won't be, you know, right. I mean, wide receiver again, just the last thing we expect. Exactly. Again, I cannot thank you enough. Follow him on social media at Pete Doherty. And of course, Packers news.com. You can find me at Andy Herman NFL. You can find the podcast at Packet a podcast. That's going to do it for us today. But until next time, and as always, go pick up. Bye.
