Parent Coaching Session for Jimmy, age 10

In this coaching call episode, I speak with Melissa, mom of 10 year old Jimmy, a fourth grader navigating ADHD and emotional regulation challenges. We dive into managing everyday disrespectful language, sibling dynamics and Jimmy's need for peer validation. If you're dealing with tone issues, social impulsivity or sibling struggles, this episode is packed with practical strategies you can start using today. Welcome to the ADHD Parenting Podcast with Mike McLeod of Grow Now ADHD and Ryan Wetzelblatt of ADHD Dude. Learn about parenting kids with ADHD from a licensed clinical social worker and speech language pathologist who specializes in ADHD. No fluffy parenting advice, only practical information that will equip you to help your child with ADHD effectively. Hi Melissa, it's good to have you. Thanks for having me. Alright, so you are the mom of Jimmy who is 10 and in fourth grade, correct? That's correct. Okay, and you shared that Jimmy is on meds, an ADHD med and also on prozac. And can you just clarify for me, is that for anxiety, the prozac or how did that come about? It was initially, we were trying it mostly because he was having explosive behavior. So we were trying to see if it would help with some intermittent explosiveness. And then he also had told us that he was very, like, never really feeling sad, but never really feeling happy either, just very in between. So we were trying to see if it would help with that as well. Okay, and do you feel that it's been helpful? It's been helpful in bringing out his personality a little bit more. We do think it contradicts the Adderall a bit to be honest. So I'm not sure and he's been having more explosive behavior as of late. So it did help a lot. I don't know if it's still helping. So that's something that we're probably going to explore with his doctor. Okay. And has he been on the Adderall the whole time since he started meds? Pretty much. We had a brief. We started with focalin and then switched over to Adderall pretty shortly after. And that's been working really well with his, like controlling his impulses during the day. And, you know, easing off the Adderall has been good. It's the post-Adderall time that's the most struggle for us, I would say. Okay. So is that what takes precedence or what would you like to focus on? Yeah, I would say the evening behavior, kind of controlling his impulses as well as just overall disrespectful language, that is a real struggle for us. Okay. And not in an outburst situation. Like an outburst situation, I feel like I have a handle where I can ignore him, ignore that behavior. It's just the general, every day, like almost like it's a natural reflex for him to just say shut up or that's stupid or, you know, something rude to myself, to his brother, to everyone. Okay. Which one do you want to start with there? Let's start with the disrespect. Okay. So tell me what happens when he does that. Just to clarify, so this is only happening at home, correct? It's not happening at school? It's happening a little bit at school, I would say with specific, there's certain children it's happening with. Okay. All right. So tell me how you guys typically handle it at home. So in a perfect situation, I would handle it where I either make him repeat in a nicer way or I won't do what he's asking or give in to him if he's talking that way. But sometimes it is like so much, I mean, like everything he's saying is disrespectful. So that's where I get, I struggle a little bit. Like do I just ignore him the whole time? Do I, you know, how do I get him to change his tune a little bit? Because he also has a very harsh tone when he's talking. And I don't think he always realizes that because he's not trying to always be rude. Right. And I'm glad you brought that up, you know, because that was one of the things that I talked about. Video out last week about this where I discussed that, you know, many people, including adults with ADHD, don't always realize how they're coming across in their tone. So if we can start addressing it at his age, that's really good. And I think it's really important because they don't always hear themselves. So let's distinguish between, you know, with the language between when you're asking him to do something he doesn't want to do and is making, you know, what I call noise versus he's just having, you know, a reaction to something because he's not getting his way. How much of this would you say is based in, you know, not getting his way versus just because he's being asked to do something he doesn't want to do? I would say it's not getting his way, but or it's like he perceives it as I'm not listening or misunderstanding what he's saying. Like for example, yesterday, he asked me to help. He was asking if I knew where this bag of dice was and he described the bag and I found a different bag that was similar, but not exactly what he described. And he was like, are you stupid? That's not what I described. And so what I said was, I'm not going to help you find out if you're going to talk to me that way. And I make mistakes too, you know, trying to help him see that. But in his mind, I didn't, I think I didn't listen to him in his description because he was very descriptive of what he was looking for. And it was similar, but not exactly what he wanted. So it's like, if it's not exactly what he needs, he's frustrated that other people aren't in tune with that. Right. So is it possible to teach him the concept of taking a brain break when you speak that way? So, you know, for example, when he speaks that way saying, you know what, I think you're going to need to take a brain break and come back and ask me to help you when, when you can speak to me in the same way I speak to you. Yes, we've tried. I wouldn't say we've been super consistent about that. We've tried and he, you know, he is very resistant to that, to taking a break. It has to be forced upon him typically. And that's fine. So here's, here's what I would say then that when he speaks that way that we ask him to take a brain break because we want him to understand, you know, you're not just going to speak to me that way and I'm going to respond to you or, or, you know, engage with you like that. So if you want to, you know, come back and even if that just means, you know, you know, staying in the room and being quiet for a minute or, you know, walk, taking a walk around and then coming back, that's fine. And, and if he chooses not to do it, then I think what he needs to hear is, okay, well, if you're choosing not to take a brain break, then I'm choosing not to speak to you until you're ready to speak to me, you know, in a way I speak to you. So, so essentially what I'm saying is, you know, at that point then we want to stop engaging with him, you know, under the guidelines that, you know, we can restart this when you're ready to speak in a respectful way and, and, and, you know, just leave it at that. And anything he says after that is just noise, right? Cause he's frustrated then. Does that make sense? That makes sense. So sometimes when we've done that, how would you handle if he says it in a nice way, like he's, you know, he'll be like very frustrated and please, can you find this for me? Like his tone is not great, but he is using the appropriate words. Is that like progress? Or should I have him do all of the pieces first? I think that is progress. And I'll tell you why, because he, he is, you know, saying it in, in, in a, you know, in a respectful way. And he's, you know, he's frustrated and he is using emotional regulation there, right? It might not be to the extent that we would want, but he is, you know. So, and, and the other thing I think to keep in mind is to, I think he's probably only doing this with you guys. You know, I don't imagine he necessarily does that like with teachers. Yeah, I would say that's correct. So you guys, it's some trouble with certain things, but it's not typically that. Yeah. So, so I think as long as, you know, even, even if it's, you know, still said with frustration, I think that's okay. Cause he's allowed to be frustrated, right? You know, and then as he, as he gets older, you know, we can, we can say, you know, not at this point, but when we can address that, that part of the tone when he gets older, but I think it's fine for now. Okay. That's helpful. Yeah. And I do try and, you know, if he says in a not, not nice tone, be quiet or shush instead of shut up, I do try and praise him for that. Because to me, that's also like he's consciously using a word that's not as nasty. Right. And, and one of the things that, you know, we can actually do is, you know, point out specifically, you know, that I hear you want me to be quiet and I appreciate you not saying shut up, you know, so, so pulling out to him, right? When he actually does that. So he understands that, you know, you appreciate, you know, that he's putting in effort, you know, because my thing is I always say, we want to praise effort, resiliency, thinking about others. So yeah. Okay. And then when he's just kind of going off on a rant about things, then that's what, when I would say, you know, it's, you know, there doesn't need to be any response to it at all because it is just noise. And obviously it's not personal, right? He's frustrated and you guys are the safe people he can take it out on. So, you know, if he needs to say shut up, whatever, just, you know, don't give it any attention whatsoever. And, and it sounds like he's typically remorseful afterwards. No, I wouldn't say that. Okay. Not for that. Okay. Yeah. It's, it's very much, I think you had it in one of your lessons or webinars, like, you know, it's like a blow up and then he just acts like nothing happens. Yes. And goes back to normal. Right. So let me share with you what I used to do with my son, who is the king of that, you know, when, when he would do that, you know, if it was, you know, like, you know, five, 10 minutes later, you know, I would say, I'm glad that you, you know, apologized and, and we're, you know, got over it, you know, but I'm still feeling a little frustrated that, you know, the way you spoke to me. So I'm not ready to speak yet. And if I need a little more time, that's okay. Because, you know, I wanted him to know that I, I appreciate you apologizing or, you know, doing a cleanup. You know, and that doesn't mean I'm over at the same time you are, you know, and, and part of the reason why I think that's important is because we want him to learn, right, that everyone has their own feelings and they don't need to be in the same place as you do in terms of how they're feeling. You know, right. So just because you're over something right away doesn't mean that I am, you know, and we're not saying it in a way that's, you know, being accusatory or telling them to get away. Just, you know, I'm not ready to talk yet because I'm still feeling, you know, frustrated inside. So we're sharing our internal dialogue about, you know, what's going on with us, if that makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. All right. Um, was there, was there more to it than this or was that pretty much, you know, the extent of it? I think that's pretty much the extent. The only question I would have is, is there anything different you would do to address the dynamic with a sibling? Because obviously his little brother who is eight can't ignore the same way I can. Um, and I do try and talk like sometimes. He'll be like, why are you getting mad at me? If I say a word when you just ignore him. Um, and I tell him, you know, that that's how he learns better, but it's harder for him to ignore the behavior. Yeah. Well, here's, here's what I would tell you. I think the first thing is with your younger guy is teach him to stand up to him. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Because one, and you know, I call that assertiveness skills because one of the things is, you know, who is Jimmy going to learn from that? This is not the way you talk to people. Well, that starts with your siblings. So granted, this is hard for younger siblings to do, but I always teach parents that teach your younger one to stand up to them and help them give them language of what they can say, you know, when, when he's speaking to them like that, because he needs to start hearing, you know, I'm not going to tolerate you speaking to me that way. Okay. Yeah. I think the giving him language is helpful because the ignoring is really tough. Yeah. That's why I always say you can't tell kids to ignore other kids. It's too difficult and it's just not really. Yeah. But, but they can learn how to stand up to them though. You know, and if we, and if we give them language for that, that makes it easier. Okay. That's helpful. And I'm not saying that, you know, with Jimmy, that it's going to stop, but, you know, he will realize, you know, oh, my brother's actually standing up to me now, right? And I'm not just going to be able to kind of push him around or take things out on him when I'm frustrated. Yeah. That makes sense. And do you think that's helpful for other kids as well? Like is that, would that be successful to try to give some parents of kids that he spends time with language that they could tell their children? Or is that, I don't know, that's more complicated. Yeah. Because, because at the end of the day, right? The, we, we learn best from peer interactions, right? And in terms of, of speaking to others. So if other kids give him feedback, yes, I think that's important because, you know, one of the things we want to keep in mind here is there is no social ramifications for telling your brother to shut up, right? Or telling your parents to shut up. There are social ramifications when you speak to your peers that way. And we want him to experience the social ramifications of speaking like that. Because that's how kids with ADHD learn, right? They learn in the moment and they have to experience natural consequences to learn. And the other thing I, you know, I say is I don't really care to be honest. If other kids say it in a nice way to him or not. All right. Because, you know, in, in the, you know, while, while their parents might say, you know, Hey, Jimmy, please don't, you know, they might teach their kids. Jimmy, please don't talk to me that way. That's not how kids are going to speak to him when no adults are around. Right. You're not going to be so kind. So I think, yeah, it's, it's important for, for him to experience from, you know, you know, immediate feedback from other kids if he's speaking that way to them. So I guess what I'm saying is, you know, tell, tell the parents, you know, you're not looking for them to necessarily, you know, sugarcoated or be kind. You're, you're looking to let them know, you know, the, you want the other kids to let him know that it's not okay to speak to them that way. Does that make sense? Yeah. That makes sense. Um, I do think in those situations, some of that happens. And then it, he doesn't respond well, at least yet he escalates and it just ends up getting meaner. So I'm trying to sort that out a little bit as well. Right. And have you discussed with him, you know, how when you speak to somebody like that, it gives you cringy thoughts like what I cover in socially smarter. Yeah. And you did, we talked a little bit about that in the office hours yesterday too. Um, and I, I have done that in the past. I reprinted out the, um, sheet and I'm going to try and use that a little bit more with him. Yeah. Because here's, here's the thing with the sheets and the why, why I use that is because it provides something tangible, right? Because really what we're helping him to understand with perspective taking is cause and effect. So if he can see it, you know, on paper, you know, and we're not asking him to read a lot, but he has to understand, right? That it is my words or my tone that elicited this negative response from others. And that's what it's about. Right. It's helping him to see, you know, the cause and effect of that. Yeah. I think that will help. I think we need to just be better about practicing that. Yeah. And, and you know, the, the other part with the clutch to cringe meter, you know, what, I use that to help kids understand that, you know, kids can have, you know, what I call clutch thoughts about you, they can like being around you. And that can change based on the way you speak to them. However, that can change again for the positive when you change your tone and speak to them in a way that's expected. It's the idea that, you know, people's thoughts about us vary based on our words and behavior. Yeah. So can I ask a question about the cringe to clutch? And it kind of ties into kids behavior post medication. You know, one of the things we see is that he is very much attention seeking of other kids, especially right now where he's, it's cold. He's not getting a lot of outlets. So it's like things like baseball practice, right? He's spending half his practice trying to get kids to laugh, goofing around, you know, being, it's very inappropriate for the situation. And it's, I would say very cringy for the coaches. However, I don't know that it is with the kids. Like they are laughing at him and they're not, or they're laughing with him. They're not laughing at him in some of these situations. So how do I teach him that I'm even making the kids laugh, you know, in certain, they may be feeling clutch about him, but it's not appropriate in that situation. And it's making other people feel cringy. Yeah. So I'm actually glad you mentioned the activity here at UI. This is something I commonly see with baseball, to be honest. Yeah, I know, I know. You know, because baseball is a lot of sitting around. It's a lot of unstructured time. So, you know, if you have a propensity to try to get attention by making other kids laugh, well, what is a more perfect time than when you're sitting on the bench? Right. Or you're out in, you know, left field and, you know, nobody's hitting the ball very far. So, yeah. So I think here's, here's a difficult thing with this. Okay. Is that he's getting, you know, positive reinforcement from his peers, which holds a lot more weight than a coach being annoyed with you. So one of the things that I think is, is important is for him to, you know, understand that, you know, when you're part of a team and yes, the kids like you and they think you're funny, you know, but there's certain behaviors that are expected when you're part of a team. And part of that is that, you know, we listen to the coaches and respect them because they make the decisions about who plays and how much and all that. So I think, I think really what we want to focus on more is that part of being a team player means also respecting the coaches, you know, and it's not just, you know, and this is not always the time to start, you know, trying to make other kids laugh. And I think the other piece he needs to hear is that right now that's working, but in a few months, it might not be working because when kids get more serious with sports, they don't always want to be joking around, right? When they're feeling more competitive, when they're playing a game. And realistically, look, this might require another kid saying to him, you know, shut up or, you know, stop talking or whatever. So again, it might have to be that, you know, immediate peer feedback is what modifies this, you know, rather than anything you say to him. Okay, that's helpful. All right. What else would you say takes precedence? I mean, it's also a baseball thing, but I think other thing too, you know, sometimes he's in this like silly goofy mood, but other times it's, and I don't, I don't know if it stems from him feeling like he's not playing well or his behavior, but he'll like target or pick on maybe one kid. And it's not always the same kid, but that can happen at like a birthday party or baseball practice that's happened. And, you know, he can be pretty mean. So in, it's a lot of times, I think you also said that's in one of your webinars that it's behaviors he exhibits himself to. So I think it's, you know, I don't, I'm trying to figure out how to help him in those situations and understand that he's being mean and the way he's coming across. Is that just more of the clench to cringy? Yeah, that's a good question. Well, there's two things here. Number one, we want him to understand that even if the behavior isn't targeted at other kids, we want him to understand other kids thoughts about how he's treating somebody, you know? So for instance, you know, we would say, so, you know, Jimmy, you're, you know, you're not being nice to Austin right now. And the other kids are seeing that and they're having cringy thoughts about you because that makes them feel uncomfortable because they see that Austin doesn't like it, you know, and they know that that's not the way you're supposed to, you know, treat other kids. Right. So we want him to understand, yes, there are social, even if it's not directed at them, there are still social ramifications for treating others badly because other kids might not want to be around you or they might embarrass you, you know, and, and call you a jerk or say something mean to you that, that you're not expecting. So, so that's the one thing is, is, you know, again, the perspective taking piece to help him understand other kids' thoughts about him. And, and I think that's what I would really focus on there. And then I think the other piece is, and again, this is going to have to be learned experientially, is that at some point when he's doing that, some kid is going to say something back to him and embarrass him. And then we want to, you know, and then so we talk about, so, and if somebody says to you and it makes you feel embarrassed in front of other kids, that's not going to feel good to you, you know? And if that's happened before you want to bring up a time that that happened and you know, remind him of how it felt, you know, because remember for kids with ADHD, they tend not to remember, you know, really, they tend to not remember the emotions from past experiences unless it's a strong negative emotion. Does that make sense? Yeah. Okay. So it's, yeah, it's, it's the focusing on, you know, the perspective taking piece of what other kids are thinking about him when he treats somebody that way. You know, but also, you know, what's going to happen when that other kid snaps back at him and embarrasses him. And I imagine that's happened at some point. Yes, it's definitely happened. I would say both and even in school it's happened. So I think that that wording is helpful to talk about some of the school situations too. And I would actually ask the teacher to also do this, you know, because if the teacher sees it happening in school, it really needs to be addressed as soon as possible, particularly because with perspective taking, you know, if we address something hours later, yeah, it could help, but not as much as if we do it in the moment. Yeah. I would say his school is pretty good about that. Okay. I think a lot of what I'm hearing really is more just around, you know, it's two things is that he's looking for social validation, you know, and it's a perspective taking piece. Well, when you're looking for social validation and your perspective taking skills are lagging behind, yeah, that could set you up to, you know, have other kids, you know, not respond well to you or to react poorly to you. And what I will tell you is that, you know, as long as you continue to work on this, it will get better with age. And if I'm going to be realistic, I would expect this to get worse next year. And here's what I mean by that is that other kids are going to start to be less tolerant of it next year. Because, you know, I have a saying that the second half of fifth grade is when things start to go south socially for kids with ADHD, because social expectations increase and, you know, kids mature. And yeah, their tolerance for this becomes less. And I wouldn't discuss that with him now because next year is too far away, but I'm just preparing you that this is probably, you know, going to intensify a bit next year. That's helpful. I should probably put it on my calendar to remind myself next year. Yeah. I mean, that is why I always, you know, fifth grade has always been one of my biggest age group for this exact reason. Yeah. Okay. That's helpful. Okay. Anything else you wanted to cover? I think that's everything that's been so helpful. Oh, good. Good. Okay. And look, you know, just, just keep in mind, particularly with the social stuff and the perspective taking, you know, this is not something that kids internalize in a day. This takes a really long time to improve perspective taking. And part of that has to do with your internal dialogue. So that is also why I teach in socially smarter. I don't know if you remember this, but I said, share your internal dialogue around perspective taking, you know, so if you're, you know, having cringey thoughts about the way he said something, you can say that out loud, you know, model what your perspective taking sounds like. So, you know, I'm having cringey thoughts the way you just spoke to your brother right now, because when you model that, it helps him to understand other thought process, right? Because that's what he's not doing. He's not thinking about other thoughts. So if we can model what that sounds like, if we can model our internal dialogue, that will help him. Yeah, that's a great point. I can definitely do that more. And the other thing I always say is, and whoever else can do this as well, that would be really helpful. I mean, not for your younger son, because he won't care about that, you know, necessarily, you know, at this point, but, you know, any, if, you know, anybody else who spends time with him, if they can also model their internal dialogue around perspective taking, that would be really helpful. And often I will tell you when I tell parents to do this and they do this, you know, the kids say, why are you talking like that? Yeah. And the response to that is because I want you to hear what other people's thoughts would be if you speak to them this way, or if you were doing that in front of other people. Okay. And then if, and then if he says, no, they're not, they don't think that, just don't respond to that at all. Okay. All right. Great. Thank you so much. This is so helpful. Good. I'm really glad to hear it. And thanks for coming to office hours. Yeah, no problem. I'll keep coming. It's always very helpful. I'm glad. All right. Thanks so much. I really appreciate it. Thanks, Ryan. Take care. All right. Take care. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Thanks for listening. To learn more about Mike's practice, Grow Now ADHD, please visit his website, grownowadhd.com. To learn about the services Ryan provides, please visit ADHDdude.com. You can find Mike on Instagram at grownowadhd and Ryan on the ADHDdude YouTube channel. We'd love to hear your feedback or questions. So feel free to contact us at the ADHD Parenting Podcast at gmail.com. The ADHD Parenting Podcast and content posted by Grow Now ADHD or ADHDdude are presented solely for general information and educational purposes. Our goal is to provide valuable insights and knowledge, not to replace professional services. Mike and Ryan cannot provide clinical consultation or free advice through social media or other forms of communication. The information on this podcast is not a substitute for professional advice. If you or your child have any medical or mental health concerns, please consult your healthcare professionals.