The Kidnapping of Charlie Lindbergh (Part 2)

Hey weirdos, I'm Ash. And I'm Elena. And this is Morbid. This is Morbid, y'all. It's Morbid. We're back from Gaikai. How are ya? And we're talking like this because we just finished recording the rewatcher. I know, I do be getting stuck in a southern accent. You're in bon temps. I know I had a doctor's appointment in between that. And imagine if I like walked into my doctor and they're like, what's your name? I'm like, oh, my name's Ashley Taylor. You're like, hey, y'all. Hey, y'all. How y'all doing? If you guys aren't watching rewatching or watching for the first time True Blood, get on it, man. It's so good. You gotta do it, you guys. It is. It's a fun time. Yeah, I love it. This is a natural plug for the rewatcher. I mean, holler. But Andrew McMahon did our theme song. It's really fucking good. It's so good. in fact that all the people who do listen to rewatcher are like dying to get um the full like the full song like on like apple or spotify or something and we're we're trying to make that happen yeah we we said to andrew hey the people want this people want it you got to give it yeah and he said i don't know how to do that he said do it what but you know we'll we'll work figure it out yeah the technology's hard um really quickly i met a couple of listeners when i was at disney and they were so nice. Aw. And I remember, wait, okay, the first person I met, you didn't say your name, but I saw you at Hollywood Studios and you were so nice. And then I met Ashley in the Pirates of the Caribbean line. That one's easy to remember. Hey. And that's what I said. I said, oh, easy to remember. I'll remember that. I'll show you out. She was so nice. She said she'd been listening to us since 2020. Ashley. Mm-hmm. For life. We took a pick. And other person. And other person. For life. And then a few other people messaged me and they said that they saw me and that they didn't want to say anything because oh that was nice yeah i don't i was just like oh my god thanks oh my god thanks i always love meeting you guys in the wild i love that yeah i love that for you and i love that for them i loved it for everybody involved i love it for me as well and yeah it's for you too because they were like oh my god where's elena and i said not here bitches you know that you know that elena is not at dis nasty i am not and then everybody also was like did you get on a roller coaster after that episode i did interesting but it's disney it feels different yeah we are we gonna be doing an episode that will touch upon that yeah i'm gonna kill you we are no we aren't you are everybody was like did you really do that and i say yeah i feel like they're well maintained yeah you know feelings are good i'm gonna kill you I'm gonna kill you right here right now oh listen I know nothing about Disney's um ride safety I assume they do a good job all I know is that the cosmic rewind is fucking smooth as butter and I you would actually appreciate this maybe a little bit you can get like I think there's like six options for songs on the cosmic rewind and I think it's just cosmic rewind not the but um everybody like you want a specific song and last time me and Drew did it we just kept getting conga and I fucking hate that song. Like boo, this time we got Everybody Wants to Rule the World and I almost cried. Oh my god, that's a great one. It was the best ride experience ever. That's, you know what's funny? The other night, how did it come up? We were talking about, I think one of the girls was singing a Tears for Fears song because I played them a lot. Bad bitches. Bad bitches. And John was like, I think they said, he was like, what song are you singing? and I was like Tears for Fears obviously I was like the best like I said something very hyperbolic about Tears for Fears. Maybe not though it was probably based in fact. Well he was like I don't know I don't know if they're like the best and I was like they have banger after banger and then I just started playing banger after banger and it was like bedtime for the girls I'm like boom boom boom. They are Tears for Fears. Yes. If you're listening you obviously are. Imagine if Tears for fears was tears for fear if we get an email in a couple of weeks and it's tears for fears at gmail.com i'll shit a brick i'll i'll jump out a window happily tears for fears i was waiting for that to penetrate later in the day that i i am manifesting that yeah me too that tears for fears is gonna contact because i think tears for fears has some real fucking certified bangers Yeah, they do. I listened to Tears for Fears all the way on my last road trip that I did. Oh, hell yeah. Yeah. Hell yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Head over heels. Come on. Do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do. What does that mean to think of? Oh, it's so good. One, two, three. Donnie Darko. Oh, I was – I didn't know what you said and then I didn't know how to ask what did you say. So I just went – she like leaned her head back and was like – I was like, I don't know how to sleep. because you're counting and it's stressing me out. I do this thing where I like to say things at the same time as Elena. Like I'm like, come on, say it at the same time as me. And then I go one, two, three, and she hates it. I do, I get very stressed out. I think it's really funny. I'm always like, ah. I'm like, wait, do you want to deliver this news to this person at the same time? One, two, and she's like, no. No, I'll say it after. It's fine. Then I've already delivered it. Oh, you know what we can do at the same time? Perform at Radio City Music Hall. We can do that at the same time. Let's fucking go. Have you guys got your tickets yet? Get your tickets. Get them at Ticketmaster because that's the only place where we approved the prices. Yeah. If it's outside of there and you're looking at the price and being like, what the fuck, ladies? We didn't approve that. We look at you and we say, yeah, what the fuck? That's not us. Yeah. So that's the only place that we approved any prices and grab your tickets. It's going to be fun. It's June 27th at Radio City Music Hall. It occurred to me today that I don't know the time. Yeah. I mean, it'll be at night, I assume. it's p.m. yeah it's a p.m. moment it's radio city music hall june 27th p.m. come to new york yeah come hang out i'm excited it's gonna be fun we might do a kick line so so grab them while they're while they're there get them while they're hot it's one night only yeah we're not one night only i promise you we're not adding another show to this date that's this particular date and location again promise one adding another date um so so grab them yeah grab them um why did i just think of the carol baskin song when you said i did too okay i did too carol baskin killed her husband whacked her can't convince me that it didn't happen that's a song carol baskin allegedly just saying allegedly i think carol's a queen you know what lord to drop i think she's a flower crown queen i have absolutely no opinion no i really i don't remember a lot of that documentary or a lot of 2020 as a whole so no i think most of us are i think i think maybe we did all just die and we're no i'm as soon as i saw the first person say that i said yep i think it might be valid theory but like what's we're here you know what I said to Elena the other day, and I'm just having a conversation with you guys now, I guess. Whenever I fly, that's when I really think that life is a simulation. Yeah, flying is crazy. Like, what we, see, they don't want me to say it. They don't. They don't want me to get this out. They. They don't. They, the simulation people. I, when we flew home from Florida the other day, I'm laying in bed that night and I'm like, I was projected through the air in a tube home today. Yeah. What? that's why pilots are fascinating to me yeah yeah they are fascinating and that works for this story it really does work for this story you actually segued right into the story but maybe maybe pilots aren't even real i mean i believe in pilots but maybe we're not even real this is stressing me do you want to have existential dread today i really don't so we're gonna do part two is that stressing me out no i'm actually excited to hear some of these theories it gets crazy does it um this is part two of the Lindbergh baby kidnapping we ended on a really sad note the first time with finding baby baby Lindbergh yeah um murdered in the woods and a baby a literal baby I know like who the fuck so if the kidnapping of the Lindbergh baby was a shock to the American public then the announcement of the boy's death was interpreted as nothing less than a national tragedy, the likes of which we have rarely seen. I mean, him being kidnapped was one thing. Finding him murdered blew everything up. Yeah. And following the reports of the death, religious and community leaders across the country just could not stop talking about the murder as a failure of cavilation and a sign of America's decaying moral fabric. Yeah. Immediately latched on um rabbi lewis newman said the killing of little charles lindberg had made multitudes pause to contemplate the meaning and nature of the collapse of the steady life and man's place within it wow which like i feel like this was kind of like a weird turning point because it's like who would have thought that could happen yeah it's like it's like the glass shatter yeah like it's so dark right it's so dark this is a baby stolen out of its crib and discovered in the woods And murdered and left to rot in the woods. Like that, you don't come back from that. Definitely not. While the American public was grappling with the implications of the murder, investigators in New Jersey and Washington, D.C. were going hard, working overtime to find his killer. Although the federal government had no direct authority in the case, President Hoover directed all federal law enforcement agencies, including the Secret Service, to, quote, set out upon a hunt for the murderers of the Lindbergh baby. and never to be relaxed until those criminals are implicably brought to justice. Hell yeah. That's a big deal for the president, President Hoover, to be like, you will not rest until we find this person. Hell yeah, Hoover. Hell yeah, Hoover. I'm never going to stop saying that, just so everybody knows. In his statement from the White House, Hoover told reporters, I've directed the law enforcement agencies and the Secret Service of the federal government to make the kidnapping murder of the Lindbergh baby alive and never to be forgotten case. The government's agencies will be unceasingly alert in every possible way until this end has been accomplished. Yeah. And he was kind of right. Agreed. He held on to it. At the scene where the remains were discovered, officers combed the woods looking for just any scrap of evidence they could to point them in the direction of the killer. But like the scene of the kidnapping in the nursery, there was really not a lot to be found out there. Near the gravesite, officers found a burlap sack with some of the child's blonde hair found inside. They quickly theorized that the boy had been transported to the site in the bag, though they were unable to determine whether he had been alive at the time. What kind of fucking monster can just put a baby into a bag? I can't even sit with that. With like his little blonde hair found in there. No, that's beyond fucked. No, the autopsy was completed by Dr. Swayze immediately after the remains were removed from the site in the woods. And upon initial observation, Swayze could see a small hole in the skull and suspected the boy could have been shot. Oh my God. But he could see no exit wound and was unable to find a bullet in his more thorough examination. So instead, Swayze determined that the boy had died from, quote, a fractured skull due to external violence. Oh, Jesus. Most likely having occurred very shortly after he was taken from the nursery. So this was not... It was all bullshit. Yeah. In the days after that, the police reports from the day the remains were discovered would reveal that the hole in the skull had been caused by one of the officers attempting to uncover the remains with a stick. Oh. Although this might seem like a wild scenario, Swayze's autopsy revealed that due to the length of exposure, the skeletal remains had become very soft. That makes sense. He was also a baby and his skull was already soft. Yeah, exactly. At the time of the discovery, Ann Lindbergh was several months pregnant. which she was by the way oh and it was believed that seeing her baby's body would be too stressful and traumatic so following the autopsy the body was immediately sealed in a coffin and transported to the mortuary for burial without either parent ever seeing the remains that's probably for the better it's i think it's a total like a case by case yeah personal choice that i don't even want to fathom so I won't no I'm not even putting it in my brain what I would do because I don't even want to put my headspace there yeah um but if that was what was best for them that I'm then that is what is best for them yeah and I hope and I hope that's what was best for them yeah like I hope that was their choice and I hope they were happy with that choice because that is an unthinkable situation to be put in can you imagine being under that amount of stress while pregnant no Like your firstborn child is missing all these ransomware. I didn't realize that during that she was pregnant. Yeah, that is beyond. Yeah. Now, the only member of the household to view the body was the governess, Betty Gow. And that was only for the purpose of identification. unfortunately before the casket could be placed in the ground and the baby laid to rest a reporter and photographer broke into the morgue overnight pried open the casket and snapped several pictures what the which were sold to papers all over the world the following day and i hope that person choked on shit i do too what the fuck is wrong with you that you're one breaking into a morgue and fucking with dead bodies like that. If you're by me to a morgue at all, go fuck yourself. But then to take pictures of a deceased murdered baby. Open a baby's casket. How low do you have to be? I would curse their bloodline. If I was those parents, I would curse that person's bloodline. I don't even think you would have to because I think karma is real. I think the universe will. And I think the universe really will fuck people over like that. What an absolute fucking garbage person. Yeah, I truly hope the rest of their life sucked. I don't wish that on really anybody, but on that person in particular, I hope the rest of their life sucked. Like just that entire thing. They go through all this trouble to make sure that the parents aren't seeing this baby because by the sounds of it, they didn't want to. Right. And then this person goes out of their way and commits crimes to make sure they have to. For money. For money. which like all the money in the world wouldn't be worth that what an evil fuck yeah that's that there's not even words for that wow so while the family grieved the loss of their baby the state police began putting together the few clues that they did have just trying to make sense of this whole thing based on the coroner's report they knew the boy had died almost immediately after being taken from the house it was very wow but Swayze was unable to say whether the blunt force trauma was accidental or intentional. Fortunately, the evidence collected from the house on the night of the kidnapping was useful in providing insight into that question. Okay. This is just so sad, if this theory. Although kidnap for ransom had become a lot less common by this point than it had been in previous decades detectives surmised that whoever had kidnapped the boy had done so for financial gain rather than murder Okay The obvious level of planning that went into this scheme suggested that this wasn't like impulsive. Investigators theorized that the kidnapper, or more likely kidnappers, parked a short distance away, walked through the woods to Lindbergh's house, which, what the fuck, carrying the ladder. They either wore stockings over their shoes or removed them entirely. just to obscure the footprints. When they reached the house, they placed the ladder underneath the nursery window, which was evident from the scuff marks found outside of the house, just below the window. And the detectives leading the case believed one of the kidnappers climbed through the window and gently removed the baby from the crib. And honestly, they would have had to have been very gentle and very calm and quiet and collected because they left the blanket still safety pinned to the mattress, remember? Yeah. And they made it in and out without waking the baby as well. That's crazy. So they had to have been like really quiet and gentle about this. Also to make it all the way down a ladder holding a baby. Well, as to the cause of death, investigators believe the evidence found at the scene likely explained that as well. When Lindbergh and Wheatley searched the area outside the house immediately after calling the police, they found the homemade ladder on the ground with one rung having broken and come off entirely. Right. Based on Swayze's findings during the autopsy, they believe the kidnapper had been carrying the baby down the ladder when the rung broke, causing him to drop the baby. Oh, fuck. Who landed on his head, causing the injury that led to his death. Oh, wow. So they don't believe that they kidnapped this baby to murder him. But that it just happened. They just dropped the baby down a ladder on his head. And that's widely believed? That's widely believed. Wow At the time The kidnappers were likely unaware Of the extent of the boy's injury Because I'm sure the boy Didn't cry Because he probably fractured his skull And died pretty quickly So they put him in the burlap bag And quietly made their way through the woods In the direction of their car By the time they reached the spot in the woods Where the remains were found They had likely discovered that the child had died So they left his body in the woods where it was found a month later by the truck driver passing through. So they think that the baby had been in the woods that whole time. Wow. Because the baby's sleeping suit had been sent to Dr. Condon as proof, it seems likely that one or more of the kidnappers returned to the scene later to retrieve the suit. To still hopefully get the money. Yeah. Like that's what they were hoping. To make it seem like the baby's alive. Right. Which also, how much even more fucked up is that? Yeah. They were telling them this baby is alive and healthy and we're feeding them a good diet when the boy was rotting in the woods. Now, if the investigator's theory was correct and Charlie's death was an accident, that meant the entire protracted ransom negotiation, like we just said, was just a ruse. This is the predominant theory as to how the kidnapping and death unfolded, and it's pretty accepted by historians. I think everybody believes this makes sense. Okay. But there are those familiar with the case who disagree. with this narrative. Rutgers University historian Lloyd Gardner, for example, believes the kidnapping couldn't have occurred without some help from someone inside the Lindbergh household. Which, like, I get that theory. I get why they think that. I'm not saying that's what happened, but I understand the thought process there. He believes that person was Charles Lindbergh himself. Oh, fuck. Among other things, Gardner points out that until that night, the Lindberghs hadn't been staying at the house during the week. So anyone who'd been casing the home would have known not to plan the kidnapping on a weeknight, which is something we mentioned in part one that was weird. Yeah. Like we were like, wow, they really just walked into that. It's interesting though that he thinks it's Charles Lindbergh because it could be anybody in that house with just up to that point. Well, Gardner also notes Lindbergh's extremely controlling and secretive behavior in the wake of the kidnapping, including trying to minimize police involvement and attempting to bypass them entirely in the ransom negotiation process. As for why this baby's own father would want him to be dead, Gardner believes Lindbergh's enthusiasm for the eugenics movement could be to blame. Okay. there were rumors that at the time of his death Charles Lindbergh Jr. had several mild health problems that could have become chronic as he aged Gardner believes that Lindbergh's well documented support for eugenics and for the Nazi party caused him to fear his son would not grow up to be a superior American man so he would have killed him but he stopped short of accusing Lindbergh of murder instead of accusing him of murder Gardner suggests Lindbergh had orchestrated the kidnapping with the attention of having the child placed in an institution. But after his accidental death, he participated in this elaborate cover-up using his power and influence to keep law enforcement as far from the truth as possible. Yikes. That's a horrible theory. Yeah, this is all alleged. A horrifying theory. That's awful. But a theory nonetheless by like somebody- A historian. A law-informed person. Now, Gardner lays out his theory of Lindbergh's scheme in his 2004 book, The Case That Never Dies. Yeah. And we link it in the show notes. So true. What a great title. Yeah, truly. But he's far from the only one who has questioned the official theory of the Lindbergh kidnapping. I did know that. And I did unfortunately know that a lot of people looked at Charles himself. In the late 2000s, famed FBI profile, you might know him, John Douglas. Oh, I think I've heard of him. You think you've heard of that guy? I think so. He undertook his own investigation of the case, relying on the existing evidence that's held at the New Jersey State Police Museum in West Trenton, New Jersey. He consulted with former North Carolina chief medical examiner John Butts, who it's his last name, guys. Get your giggles out now. I'm sure he's heard it all. Poor John. Poor John. Who reviewed the autopsy evidence and ultimately disagreed with Swayze's findings that the cause of death was likely accidental blunt force trauma. Oh. He cited the additional injuries located on the right side of the skull. Okay. Now, John believes the kidnappers likely hit the boy on the side of the head while he was on the ground, causing his head to strike something hard on the opposite side. Oh, I hate this so much. He said if he were lying on his left side, head down on a hard surface, and he was then struck with a forceful blow on the right side of his head by a hammer or pipe. Oh, fuck. That would compress the head and it might do so with sufficient force that it might do so on the right side as well. He also reviewed what remained of the child's medical records and stated that contrary to popular belief, the chart contains no information about chronic illness or health problems. Okay. Interesting. Yeah. Regardless of how or why it happened, the fact remained that Charles Lindbergh Jr. had been killed and someone clearly needed to be held accountable. Right. The problem was there was very little evidence anywhere at the scene of the kidnapping or the gravesite and nothing to point investigators in any direction of a suspect. In a clever display of foresight, though, detectives instructed Lindbergh to assemble the ransom payment from older bills and gold certificates. Okay. The latter of those were expected to go out of circulation in a year or two. Oh, smart. Really smart. Once the nation moved away from like the gold standard. Yeah. They also had the bank record the serial number of every bill and certificate Condon handed over to Cemetery John. Of course, for any of that to be in use of finding a suspect, the kidnapper would have to use one or more of the bills in a transaction. Which you would think they would if they were asking for it in the first place. Well, and also that transaction would also have to be suspicious enough for the vendor to report it to police. Yeah, that's... So he's just buying like a candy bar. That's a nuance. That's to say the likelihood of finding their suspect through the ransom money alone was pretty slim. If or until that happened, investigators turned their attention back to the Lindbergh House, particularly the members of the staff who could have been involved in the kidnapping. Yeah, I think that was one of the first things I asked. Now, most of the staff at the Lindbergh House could account for themselves at the time of the kidnapping. But there was one young woman who lead investigator Colonel Schwarzkopf felt had not been entirely truthful when she was first interviewed after the kidnapping. Violet Sharp had immigrated to the United States from England and worked for Anne's parents for two years when Charlie was kidnapped. Given how long she'd been with the family and how well she was liked by the rest of the staff, investigators assumed her interview would be very routine. but they were quickly proven wrong from the moment they sat down with her she was very combative very uncooperative and it seemed to detectives that she was very nervous oh which obviously this could be because being interrogated for a child's murder in a house you work would be pretty nerve-wracking fucking nerve-wracking but still a little suspicious so weird although she did eventually relax a little and answer the questions, she did so with the understanding that she resented their questions about her personal life, and she was eager to get this interview out of the way. Okay. Now, according to Violet, she and her sister Emily had been in town on February 28th and met a man while walking down Lidecker Street. The man had waved to the women from his car, and mistaking him for someone she knew, Violet went over to the car. Although she didn't know the man, Violet said he seemed like a nice person so she and Emily accepted a ride from him and even agreed to go on a date with the man who promised to call the next day the next morning around 11 Betty Gow told Violet she had been summoned to the Lindbergh house because Ann wasn't feeling well and she would be staying there for the night later that night the man called around 8 p.m. and invited Violet to the movies that evening when he arrived there was another there was another couple in the car and the four of them went to the movie and he dropped her off at the Moreau house a little after 11 p.m. Violet claimed she agreed to a second date with the man but canceled the next day. Okay. At first, this story seemed like an ordinary recollection of, you know, just a random young woman's night out. Yeah. Investigators were like, okay, cool. Straightforward. But they became somewhat more suspicious when Violet couldn't remember the names of anyone in her company that night, including her date or the name of the movie they saw or the theater in which they saw it. that's suspicious real weird just about the only detail violet did seem to remember was the theater was in inglewood considering that violet's first interview took place 10 days after the kidnapping it seemed to investigators that she should have probably been able to remember at least some of the details of her night out yeah like the movie the names of the people like were you roofied like and that maybe that's why you don't want to talk about any of this maybe but when they pressed her for more details, she only grew more in cooperative and eventually they ended the conversation. Now a month later, on April 13th, Schwarzkopf sent Inspector Harry Walsh to interview Violet a second time, convinced that there was something she wasn't telling. Just as before, the interview started off with innocuous questions about her work history or upbringing, but as soon as Walsh began asking her about where she was the night of the kidnapping, Violet had an entirely new story about that night. Where before she claimed she was out on a double date with a man whose name she couldn't remember. Now Violet claimed her date's name was Ernie and they hadn't gone to the movies but to a roadhouse called the peanut grill. Okay. When Walsh asked why a respectable woman would go to a roadhouse with a man she barely knew, Violet became very angry and resentful. She said because they have really good fucking roles there. She said I'd do what I want. Despite the shift in tone though, she continued to provide the detective with details. Okay. Violet said they went to the roadhouse around 8 p.m. with another couple, stayed there drinking and dancing until about 10.30 p.m. After that, her date drove her home and she arrived back at the house around 11 p.m. Was it like not respectable to go to like a restaurant with a man? I think this is like a roadhouse. I think it was like a bar pretty much. Oh, okay. I see. You know, like it was less, it was not for good upstanding young ladies. Not swanky. Now, later that day, Walsh reported back to Schwarzkopf and relayed Violet's new story, but neither man was very convinced of this. For one thing, it was well known among the staff at the house that Violet was, the Moreau house was the parents' house. Yep. It was well known by the staff that Violet was dating the Moreau's butler, Septimus Banks, which also, take a minute with that name. Septimus Banks. Septimus Banks. You kind of have to date him. You do. You absolutely do. And he's a butler? Septimus Banks at your service. He sounds hot. He does. I'm not going to lie about it. Septimus Banks? Septimus Banks. What a fucking name. I date him. Damn. Well, again, maybe that's why she was feeling like she didn't want to talk about it. Maybe she was cheating. So it was well known she was dating Septimus Banks. And there was a rumor that Banks was considering proposing marriage. Well, fuck. Also, as far as anyone in the house knew, Violet hadn't dated anyone other than Banks in the two years she'd been in the United States. so because of those details it seemed highly unusual that violet would have accepted a date from a stranger much less a date to a roadhouse again with the fucking roadhouse not a roadhouse it also struck schwarzkopf that violet's story seemed to align almost perfectly with the window of time in which the baby was taken from the house with her leaving not long after betty gow last checked on him and arriving home after his disappearance had been discovered yeah of course none of this was evidence of Violet's involvement of the kidnapping, but it was fucking weird. It didn't clear her. And changing your story so... It's not good. Changing your story a little bit, even during these things, is a little suspicious, but having an entirely new story is wild. Yeah, not great. Now, despite the inconsistencies in Violet's two stories about that night, and the fact that she seemed unusually anxious during her interviews with police, Elizabeth Morrow vouched for her maid and assured them that she had complete faith in her. Okay. Although Schwartz Kovskov had no interest in undermining the Moros. Once the remains were found in the woods, his suspicion turned right back to Violet Sharp, and he insisted on interviewing her for a third time. Wow. Unfortunately, the day before the body was found, Violet had been hospitalized with a tonsil infection, and she spent weeks claiming she was too ill to talk in an interview. Convenient. Finally, when she could no longer avoid the interview, Violet agreed to meet with the detectives again on May 23rd. Violet Sharp's third interview with Walsh was more or less like the other interviews with her going over her story again, but this time there was a noticeable discrepancy. Another one? In both her first and second interviews, Violet claimed that Betty Gow had told her the Lindberghs would be staying at the new house and she had been called there to help Anne. She further stated that Ernie, the man with whom she had a date, had called her later that evening around 8 p.m. Okay. Now, though, Violet told Wall she received a call from Ernie around 1 p.m. on the day of the kidnapping. According to Richard Cahill, the obvious implication of the new statement was that she told Ernie about the Lindbergh's plans. Oh, that like they were going to stay at the house Yeah That said Cahill also notes that aside from Walsh pointing out the discrepancy between the times of the call the difference didn seem to make much of an impression on the other investigators Instead Walsh focused on Violet previous lie about going to the movies and asked several questions that implied she had behaved immorally. Cahill suggests Walsh was attempting to upset her so she would let something slip of significance. Right. But Violet stuck to the story. Hmm. In the days after her third interview, Violet grew noticeably depressed. In a June 7th letter to a family in England, she wrote, I want to come home so much, but I cannot leave the country. Or they would think I knew something about the baby. Gee, life is getting so sad. I really don't think there is much to live for anymore. Wow. Now, although there's no way to know whether Violet was simply being, you know, feeling depressed about anything. Yeah. It does look like she was under considerable stress at the time. And her emotional state was very fragile. I mean, yeah. I can't imagine working in a house where a baby was kidnapped and then murdered. And people think you did it. And now you're being looked at, exactly. Now, two days after Violet sent the letter home, Inspector Walsh was back at the Moreau house, this time in the company of a secretary, Laura Hughes, who had come to take her formal statement. Oh, shit. On this occasion, Walsh went at Violet way harder than he had before, likely hoping she would slip up. At one point, he showed Violet a picture of a local petty criminal. I knew you were thinking the baby. Fuck, I was like, what? Named Ernest Brinkhardt, and asked whether he was the man she had gone on a date with, And she said it was. Violet claimed she had never given his name to the police because she only knew him by his first name. Walsh was now yelling at her and insisted Violet was lying because they had discovered Brinkart's business cards in her bedroom. Oh, fuck. The revelation stunned Violet and she started to cry. Babe, you gotta stop lying to the police. But Walsh persisted in his aggressive questioning and only stopped when the secretary insisted that he had gone too far. and she went to get the family doctor oh fuck you wonder what he said upon examination the doctor insisted violet could not answer any more questions that afternoon she was in hysterical tears her heart her pulse was racing her blood pressure was dangerously high and the doctor escorted violet out of the room and up the stairs to her bedroom but before she disappeared violet turned back to laura hughes and gave her a smile and a wing oh i will fight her and hughes would not report that gesture for several weeks. Why? I'd be like, that bitch winked at me. That bitch winked at me. That's what I would say. She winked at me. Did you just see what that bitch just did? Now, in the months since the kidnapping, it was clear to everyone in the house that the repeated interrogations had taken a considerable toll on Violet. Maybe not. Ew. Can I actually just tell you how fucking freaked out I am by that? That's freaky. That just gave me the chills. No matter what, that is terrifying. All I can picture is like a crazy bitch at the top of the stairs just like, just that little wink. Stop winking at me. I'm winking at her. I know. The night after her third interrogation, she told Betty Gao, they'll never take me from this house again. They'll never question me again. They fucking should. Unfortunately for Violet, the next day, Inspector Walsh intended to do exactly that. Yeah, girl, who do you think you are? Early on the morning of June 10th, Walsh called the Moreau house and told Elizabeth's secretary that he was sending an officer to the house to bring Violet to the station so they could finish the interview. Yeah, girl, it's Gemini season. We're communicating. Yeah. Yeah, Walsh explained that the interview could be conducted in his office and a doctor would be present to monitor her condition. When Violet heard the news, she became irrationally upset and screamed at Septimus Banks, Walsh wants to question me again, but I won't go. I won't. I won't. Banks tried to calm her, but she grabbed a small measuring glass and ran upstairs, where she retrieved a bottle of silver polish from the closet and quickly consumed all of its contents. When the liquid was gone, she walked calmly back downstairs and into the pantry. And she appeared as though she was about to say something to one of the staff members, but then gasped slightly and collapsed on the floor. Moments later, Violet was dead. That bitch is the most suspicious woman I've heard of in my time alive. That is the most suspicious set of events. She absolutely knew something. As far as Schwarzkopf and Walsh were concerned, Violet's suicide was yet more evidence of her guilt. Absolutely it was. That bitch was shady. Schwarzkopf told reporters the suicide of the girl strongly tends to confirm the suspicion of investigating authorities concerning her guilty knowledge of the kidnapping of the Lindbergh baby. Right. Regardless of their opinions or how it appeared in the press and to the public, there was never any evidence that connected Violet to the kidnapping. In fact, in the weeks that followed, after they reviewed the letters she'd written to her family, investigators concluded that Violet was unstable and the stress of the investigation had pushed her to end her life. Former profile John Douglas acknowledges the incredible stress that Violet was under at the time, but he believes there may be more to Violet's death than emotional strain. Yeah, because why did you lie right off the bat? Yeah, I understand like being stressed, but I don't understand lying to the police immediately. Yeah. About a baby's murder. Yeah. Like you got to be truthful from the jump, no matter if like how ugly that truth is. Yeah, that's weird. Yeah. So given the timeline between Betty Gow announcing that she was going to the Lindbergh house and Violet's calls from Ernie Brinkhart, Douglas suspects Violet may have inadvertently revealed the critical information that the Lindberghs would be in Hopewell on the night of the kidnapping. if that were true or even if she just believed it were true violet may have felt as though she was indirectly responsible for the boys kidnapping and murder and the weight of the guilt led her to end her life but why be a big old creep and wink at people from the top of the stairs it sounds to me like she might have known a little bit i think she had i don't know something there's no evidence to connect her to it it just she was real real shady yeah during this whole thing. Shady, shady, shady. And it's a tragedy that she ran upstairs and, you know, killed herself with fucking silver polish. That's awful. Especially if she's innocent. And this was just the stress. Poor Septimus. Yeah. Now, with their best suspect at the time now dead, Schwarzkopf's investigation was set back significantly and started to go cold. So did they go after Ernie? Hello? Well, at the same time, Charles and Anne had been receiving anonymous letters in the mail threatening to kidnap their newborn child. Oh, that's awful. Rather than risk a second kidnapping, the couples flood to Europe because just get the fuck out of here. Yeah. Leaving the investigation to the police. Two years would pass before investigators finally made progress. And when the case finally broke, it wasn't the result of like dogged police work, but a simple transaction at a gas station in New York. Tell me everything. So within days of the ransom being paid by Cemetery John, the money and gold certificates started to appear in various deposits around New York. Unfortunately, every time investigators followed the lead, it went nowhere. And by the summer of 1934, the money appeared to have fallen out of circulation entirely. Then, in September, the certificates appeared again, this time at a New York grocery store. But when they were interviewed, none of the clerks could remember the man who'd used the bills. I mean, why would you? But still, it meant the kidnapper was still in the area. That's horrifying. On September 18th, 1934, investigators in New Jersey got a call from the FBI to inform them that another gold certificate had been found in a deposit at the Corn Exchange Bank in the Bronx. Once again, when detectives questioned the bank tellers, no one could tell who it was. And they kind of were feeling like they were on a wild goose chase at this point. This time, though, there was something different about the $10 gold certificate in the deposit. it. On the bill, someone had written 4U-13-41 along the edge. Thinking the number might be a license plate, the investigators asked whether any of the customers owned a gas station. They were directed to the Warner Quinlan station on the outer edge of Manhattan. The manager of Warner Quinlan, Walter Lyle, remembered the bill as soon as he saw it. A few days earlier, a man driving a blue 1930 Dodge had pulled into the station and bought $5 worth of gas. Which, like, whoa. Meanwhile, it is now $5 a gallon. Lyle remembered the transaction because as he told the man in the Dodge, he did not see many gold certificates anymore. Right. Lyle recalled the man was white and fairly average looking, but he spoke with a very thick German accent. The man said, I only have about $100 left, as Lyle handed him his change. Thinking the bill might be counterfeit, Lyle jotted the license plate down on the bill. Wow. Lyle. Investigators looked up the license plate number and learned the car belonged to Bruno Richard Hopton. He was from Germany, and he lived on 222nd Street in the Bronx. The description on file with the Department of Motor Vehicles said that he was 35 years old, 5 feet 10 inches tall, 180 pounds with blonde hair and blue eyes. More or less the description provided by Walter Lyle at the Warner Quinlan Station. As far as they could tell, Hoppeman had no criminal record in the United States, but records from Germany would take some time to arrive. Okay. The psychiatric consultant working with the police, Dr. Schoenfield, told the detectives that barging into Hoffman's home would be a bad idea. It usually is a bad idea to barge into people's homes. If he had the money there or any other evidence, it could be quickly destroyed or hidden. Yeah. Besides, he reasoned if Hoffman was the criminal they thought he was, there was a very good chance he would carry some of the money with him wherever he went. As a reminder of his great victory over Charles Lindbergh. Yeah. Knowing they needed more evidence than the one-schooled certificate from the gas station deposit, investigators decided to follow Schoenfield's advice rather than risk losing their suspect that they have right now. So that night, officers from New Jersey staked out his apartment building in the Bronx, where he lived with his wife and one-year-old child. By 1.30 a.m., when there still hadn't been any sign of Hoffman, the surveillance was called off until the following morning. unbeknownst to the new jersey investigators agents from the fbi had continued watching the apartment a fact that when learned by the detectives would only further strain their working relationship with the government agents oh that's not good the next morning detectives returned a little after 7 a.m to watch the apartment and finally two hours later richard emerged from the building and walked to the garage to receive retrieve his car the detectives followed him at a steady pace for more miles, hoping they might catch him in the act of spending some of the money. But after it became clear he likely wasn't going to stop, Lieutenant J.J. Finn gave the order to pull the car over to the road and arrest the suspect. Upon being pulled over, Richard appeared calm and relaxed, but the detective making the arrest wasn't going to take any chances, so he yanked the driver's side door open and jammed his pistol in Hoffman's ribs, telling him he was under arrest for passing counterfeit gold certificates. okay a lot that's would feel like an overreaction to counterfeit like spending counterfeit money right now once out of the car richard hopman was frisked and handcuffed in his back pocket they found a wallet containing his identification and 26 including one 20 gold certificate from the ransom money okay the detectives asked hopman if he was the man who'd spent the 10 certificate at Warner Quinlan and told the manager he had a hundred more and Hotman admitted that he had. Okay. He told the men that he had been fearful of inflation and had been collecting and saving the gold certificates for some time. Which is like kind of valid of an excuse. That's a valid excuse. Yeah. When Anna Hotman returned home from the park with her son that morning, she was shocked to find her husband sitting on the bed while several police officers ransacked their apartment. Yeah, that's a lot to walk into. During their search, they discovered roughly a $100 in gold certificates and a tin box, but there was little else that would have connected him to the kidnapping. During the search, one of the FBI agents noticed him looking out the window towards the garage whenever he thought one of none of the investigators were looking at him. Oh, I love when they get little shit like that. The agent looked in that direction and saw a wire going from the house to the garage and demanded to know what it was for. Richard explained that it was a burglar alarm. When he pressed a button next to the bed, a red light would come on in the garage. despite his protests of innocence and repeated claims that he had no money and knew nothing about the kidnapping a large amount of evidence was found in his home that connected him to the crime in the apartment detectives found several notebooks that while written in german clearly contained plans for a homemade ladder similar to that used in the kidnapping written on the wall of the closet in the bedroom they discovered john condon's address and telephone number. Shut the fuck up. Why would you write that in your closet? In your closet. On the wall. In the attic, they found that the planks of wood used in the construction of the house resembled the wood used in the construction of the ladder. So they took several boards into evidence to compare to the ladder. And most importantly, hidden in a suitcase in the garage, they discovered nearly $14,000 of the ransom money. What the fuck? Richard Hopman was held for two days before finally being charged with the kidnapping and murder of Charles Lindbergh Jr. on September 21st, 1934. In that time, investigators attempted to learn all they could about him. He was born in Germany, trained as a carpenter, but worked as a machinist for most of his early career in Germany. When the war first broke out, he served in the military and was discharged after being wounded in a gas attack. Oh, fuck. Following his discharge, he found work in a coal mine, but that job didn't last very long. And after that, he kind of went from job to job until he weighed his way to the United States as a stowaway on a steamship. Damn. All of this information was provided to investigators by Hopman in their first interview with him after they arrested him. Yeah. What he left out was the fact that his job in a coal mine ended after he was discovered stealing coal from his employer. Can't be doing that. And the years that followed weren't just marked by inconsistent employment, but by multiple arrests. At the time of the interview, investigators were still waiting on his criminal record from Germany. Right. So detectives were still unaware of the extent of his criminal history and found it hard to square Richard Hopman, the family man, with the profile of a dangerous criminal given to them by consulting psychiatrists. Yeah. After reviewing the records, though, things started to make more sense. Oh, no. Among the crimes that he had been arrested for in Germany were an incident in which he and a partner robbed a woman with a baby at gunpoint. Oh, fuck. And another incident in which he used a homemade ladder to break into and rob the home of the mayor. What? Yeah. Hopman was prosecuted for the home breaking and sent to prison, but he escaped a short time later and fled to the U.S. Brother. When she was informed of her son's arrest in the U.S., Hopman's mother told a reporter, I am used to all sorts of things from the son who has caused me much heartaches, but this news is the worst yet Oh his poor mom. Can you I can't even fathom. I will not Once he was in the US He kept a low profile and socialized very little those who knew him Yeah Those who knew him indicated that he was a likable if quiet man who definitely didn seem like the kind of person who would commit a crime A former co August Becker said I can understand how hot men could do such a thing He was quiet and shy, an extremely likable fellow, and I can't understand how he got mixed up in this affair. That shit happens all the time, though. It's so spooky, though, when you're like, I literally can't fathom this person. No, it is spooky. Others offered similar descriptions, including one man, John Harris, who described him as someone, quote, who seemed to have something constantly on his mind. Maybe. He worked with Hopman a little more than a year earlier on a construction job, but according to Harris, Hopman had quit, saying he had been dabbling in Wall Street and had been doing pretty well, so he would not continue to work as a carpenter. Hello? After several hours of questioning that appeared to be going nowhere, detectives handed him a pen and a pad of paper and asked him to write and rewrite several paragraphs. As he wrote, the officers noticed that Hopman's penmanship was unnatural. The slant of the writing appeared to change mid-paragraph, and the writing was stiff and forced. Because he's trying to disguise his handwriting. It was clear that he was trying to disguise his handwriting. Which he can't do. it's so interesting that like even when you try to disguise your handwriting you still have these little like idiosyncrasies that like only you have exactly and quick little note like just to i that i think of this if you have a child listening maybe don't let them listen to this part because i'm going to say something that will ruin magic so just you don't yeah all right if hopefully they're out i'm going to say it one more time get them out get them out if you have a child that's like you're still being whimsical with get them out all right i mean i don't know if they should be listening to this anyways but like hey hey you do you but i i can verify that you can't disguise your handwriting because any time that i have had to write a note from a particular entity yeah of the holiday persuasion yes it's really hard and i think one of my kids especially almost clocks it every time really and i try to make them all distinct and sometimes they'll be like oh look at that is it this one writes the same as this one yeah like the you know a holiday uh character visitor that you have to he visits for like that he does a lot of shit every single night that one and maybe one that comes and causes mischief in march um but you write letters from that sometimes they have a weird distinct handwriting that's the same and somebody might clock me for it every single time big middle or small middle always time always so that bitch clocks all the t she clocked it she told me the other day hard she could distinct handwriting she criticized me the other day for my quote-unquote parenting i said i'm not your parent i'm not your parent that's just bad parenting i was like what you're like i'm not prepared man i mean that's why i'm your tt but yeah it's hard it is it's really hard so hopefully your child was out of the room for that i tried to i tried to go anyway uh but i but i don't want to fuck anything up so yeah he was trying to disguise his handwriting and later during the trial he would claim that he had been ordered by the detective to misspell certain words particularly those misspelled in the ransom notes okay well that's weird however if that did happen according to Richard Cahill, there's no evidence to support that claim. And his, quote, assertions of this were directly contradicted and refuted. I was like, good try. Well, I mean, obviously they'd be refuted. Like the detectives wouldn't be like, yeah, we did that. No. But in the months following his arrest, the press eagerly covered every new piece of information released by investigators, while also digging up their own information about Hopman. In mid-October, for example, it was revealed that the handwriting on his automobile registration card, presumably written by Hopman, was analyzed against the ransom notes. According to handwriting analyst Robert Osborne, who would go on to testify on behalf of the state, the handwriting on the card was a match for the handwriting on the notes. I would love to be a handwriting analysis person. Really? Yeah, I think that's, it's just so fascinating to me. It is interesting. Now, by the time his trial began on January 3rd, 1935, There was little the press and public didn't know about the evidence against him. And from an objective perspective, things didn't look good for him. I love the way that sounded. Objective perspective. That does sound nice. I like that. Now, not only was he found with the ransom money and several other pieces of evidence linking him to the crime, but investigators were able to prove conclusively that the wood used to make the ladder had come from his attic. Oh, fuck. Matching the boards. Wait, why did I not know that this was kind of solved? Yeah. now beyond that john condon immediately recognized him as cemetery john what who's given he'd given the ransom money to despite all the evidence against him richard hopman maintained his innocence and denied having anything to do with the crime he claimed that he'd received the money from his friend isador fish who died the previous year isador fish is not real is it that motherfucker back there is not real he said he died the previous year after returning to germany sure And according to Hopman, Fish had left the suitcase in Hopman's possession and he didn't know what was inside until after his friend had died. Bitch! As for the sketches of the house and the latter found in the notebook, those have been drawn by a neighborhood child. Wait, I'm sorry. I missed that. He had sketches? Yeah, I don't even know if I mentioned that and I apologize if I didn't. He had sketches of the house. Hello? But don't worry. It was a neighborhood child that did that in his notebook. Why does a neighborhood child have your notebook? Shut up, you idiot. you find me some neighborhood child that has not written the blueprint for a crude ladder in your notebook i could give you 14 of them i could give you four i will round up all the kids on my street i feel as though they don't have the blueprint of a of a kidnapped house now it was hopman claimed all a big misunderstanding and he could never have committed such a cruel and violent act I also want to know how the writing was in his closet as well. Yeah, like why do you have that man's phone number? A name in you. What? Yeah. Now, under the circumstances, his story sounded preposterous. I love that word. At most, the prosecutor was willing to accept that he had an accomplice and was willing to take the death penalty off the table. If Hopman could reveal that person's identity, the accomplice. Ernie? He stuck to his story. He had nothing to do with it. On February 12th, prosecutor Anthony Hawk made his closing statement to the jury, revisiting all the damning evidence against him. He said, now you can disregard personal identity, disregard the handwriting experts, disregard the latter, disregard those things. But I want you to remember this, that the man who got the $50,000 handed to him was the man who had buried in his very garage approximately $15,000 of this very money. buried not in a shallow grave like the Lindbergh baby was buried but buried in a garage Bruno Richard Hopman now the jury deliberated for a full day and uh no matter how they viewed the evidence sorry I just said ah in the middle of that and no matter how they viewed the evidence it seemed impossible that he wasn't responsible for the kidnapping yeah on February 13th they came out of their chambers and delivered a guilty verdict for which they sentenced him to die by electrocution. That one I kind of get. The defense immediately appealed the verdict, of course, to the state Supreme Court. But on October 9th, 1935, the justices handed down a decision upholding the lower court's verdict and sentence. A few months later, in early December, the U.S. Supreme Court declined to hear Hopman's appeal, and an execution date was set for January 17th, 1936. When that day finally came, Hopman was granted a 30-day reprieve by the governor of New Jersey. But when that extension ended, he was simply resentenced and given a new execution date. After exhausting all his appeals and being denied clemency by the state, Richard Hopman was executed in the electric chair on April 3rd, 1936 at 8.47 p.m. Wait, I did not know that somebody was held accountable for this at all. How did I miss that? I mean, because there's so many theories about who else was involved. Yeah. And And he went to his death denying any role in the kidnapping and murder of Charles Ingram Jr. You had the guy's name in your closet and neighborhood children's sketches of the home in your notebook. Well, and in the decades after his execution, a lot of theories have sprung up around the case, ranging from like, okay, maybe plausible to like, no. While very few people doubt Richard Hopman's guilt, many like former FBI profiler John Douglas strongly suspect that he wasn't alone in this. Yeah, well, I don't, yeah, I kind of get that. Among other things, Douglas points to the fact that when he was arrested, he only had roughly one third of the money in his possession. And nobody thought about that? And that suggests other people were involved. Also, Douglas had the ransom notes and a sample of Hopman's handwriting reanalyzed using analysis software, which concluded that the ransom notes were not as strong a match for Hopman as previously described. Oh. Oh. So the fact that so much attention has been dedicated to the Lindbergh case is a testament to, honestly, Lindbergh's fame and power at the time. But the conspiracy theories that have popped up around the case are indicative of the extent of misinformation and confusion around the case. Yeah. From the moment Charlie went missing, Lindbergh used his power to control the police and locked them out of various aspects of the case. add to that a seriously dysfunctional relationship between the state and federal authorities and the result is a very messy investigation where several elements were mishandled and integrity could be called into question at times eventually the public moved on from the case of Richard Hotman and the kidnapping of the Lindbergh baby but in the wake of Charles Lindbergh's death in 1974 which like feels like 1974 I know and it's like that is very long ago at this point but It doesn't feel that way. I think that's like, what is it, 54 years ago? Damn. New information started coming to the surface that, like we said before, painted Lindbergh in not a great light. In addition to his enthusiasm for eugenics and the agenda of the Nazi party, it was discovered that Lindbergh had also secretly fathered multiple children with three different women. You know what? All of whom were sworn to secrecy. I'm going to say something. He has that vibe. He does. he really does he has that vibe like obviously no child should ever suffer for the no their parent that is not at all part of this no no it's just important to say that information came to light that like the american hero is not exactly what we thought he was yeah they rarely are they rarely are but even with all of that which like obviously you have to touch upon the fact of the matter is if Richard Hopman did have an accomplice, we might never know. Yeah, it doesn't feel like we will. Personally, you know where we stand on like we may never know. We, a cold case is never cold. I feel like we could know. I feel like, you know, like we may never know. That is something that could happen. Of course, that's always a situation, but I always feel like there's a possibility. It just feels like, it just feels like anybody who was like adjacently involved in this, even if they were innocent or not like was so secretive there's a there's a lot of secrets surrounding this which obviously it happens so often with like these high profile high society cases yep exactly and that's the that's the rub that's the thing it's like he's louise there's a lot here that i think we just don't know yeah i think you're right i hope that we know someday though I do hope we know. Yeah. Because what a fucked up tale. It really is. And it's kind of, it's very sad actually that a lot of the times I think the baby and the murder of the baby gets lost in the story. I think so too. In a lot of theories and the way it all happened and stuff like that. Like I think the fact that a baby was brutally kidnapped and murdered gets lost sometimes. Yeah, it just becomes this very like salacious story. Because Charles Lindbergh Jr. also just becomes the Lindbergh baby. yeah you know like he has a full name you know like it's just it can it can be rough yeah it's a tough case but at least they found out at least one person who did it because richard definitely did it he had a part in it that's for sure yeah that's crazy yeah i can't believe i never knew that i know um i'm looking for a fun fact for you really quick a fun fact oh i have another fact about bees for you fun fun fact bees can fly higher than mount everest holy shit i love bees good for bees you hate bees i love bees no i don't hate bees i don't hate bees i was like no don't say that about me no i'm scared of bees you're scared i do not hate them i respect them you respect them so much but you're you have such a i don't want them landing on me i don't like any bugs landing on me it sends me into you should see elena if there's a bee near her i because i just don't want to be stung. I don't know why. You've become like a small child. I've been stung before. Like it's not that bad. It's really not the end of the world. I don't like bugs on me. It's just not. And maybe it freaks me out. Because you respect bees so much you don't want them to sting you because you don't want them to die. That's the thing. I respect the hell out of bees. I want bees to be everywhere. I want to encourage bees. Yeah. I just don't want them landing on me. That's fair enough. And that's that's it. I like when bees land on me weirdly. I get scared. I get scared. your kids are so scared i know it's my own fault probably they probably got my DNA there they got scared they got scared i just think it's cool that they can fly higher than mount everest i think that's very i also like women bees because they're boss bitches hell yeah and so are we and we do with that and so are you and so are you all of you guys we obviously hope you boss bitches keep listening Yeah, and we hope you keep it weird. But not so weird that you forget about the Lindbergh baby and the fact that the Lindbergh baby was Charles Lindbergh Jr. Yeah. And little Charlie. It's a very sad story. Poor little Charlie. Put some respect on it. Yeah. Bye. Bye. Thank you. Thank you. Good care.