‘Industry’ Season 4, Episode 3: Watching the Sausage Get Made

! Hello, welcome back to the Press to use TV Podcast speed on Twitter Robinson. I'm Rob Mahoney. Jody Walker is not with us. Alas. Tragic. Uh... Especially given the subject matter this week. I feel like Jody would have had a field day with this episode. Absolutely. And we will get her take on this episode. She is on vacation. She will be back next week. Yeah. Um... Her, she's in Vienna. Is that what you heard? You know, just seeing the sights? Uh, let's not slander her. Okay. Quico Masha Jody. Can we start with a no-masha Jody and say, I don't know if you know this, but uh... All that men care about is like a sea, right? Indeed. Kenny, when Kenny asks Eric, our guy Kenny comes back. My guy Kenny. As Sarah can be the end of the episode, how it feels to be in a position of power. And Eric says, a constant nerve-jangling desire to enshrine it. Yeah. Is that not a line written for Jody Walker? Speaking right to her soul. To her philosophy. It's going right into her instructional materials. Uh, all right. With Jody not here, though, I do have a quick question for you. Okay. We're seeing the launch of Stern Tau. Would this prestige podcast team be called Robinson Mahoney or Mahoney Robinson? Who gets to go first? That's obviously Robinson Mahoney. One of us is a New York Times bestseller. We're leading with prestige on prestige. Season four, episode three of industry. Hobb Silic Kighton is uh, how we've decided we pronounce that. Hobb Silic Kighton. Hobb Silic Kighton. Hobb Silic Kighton. All right. That's all we're going to do of that. Written by Joseph Charlton, directed by Michelle Seville and um... Princess Joanna Johanna. Sure. No relation to me. Uh, asks uh, yeah, as if she knows this word, right? Literally translated, she says it means possessions closest to your soul. Yeah. How does this, you know, we love to look at a title of an episode and see how it goes across all threads of an episode. Do you see anything beyond, though we really love this Adolf Hitler painting. So we've put it in this prized room. Yeah. Definition of this particular title. I think there's many. And I think it depends on how broadly you want to define what you possess and what you own. I mean, for example, I think the now very complicated sexual politics between Yaz and Henry and Haley ends in some ways with Yaz exerting that she owns a certain thing that Henry has deposited and owns him in a lot of senses. I think there's an area by which Eric and appealing to Harper is trying to give her the things, the precious things that he can't give his daughters because he doesn't actually know who they are. And in that case, it's like the power and the authority to run this fund on her own terms. And so it's like, it is an appeal to find these precious things for each other in ways that are good or very selfish. But it's kind of all over this episode, I feel like. I really think it's important that we're talking about possessions and a show that is of course so fixated on money and capitalism. We'll talk about all of that, obviously, but when Yaz or Harper, we're always wondering what they're chasing. And I'm always hoping for them that it's relationships and it never is that. It's never human connection. It's always things and security and legacy, as Jody would like to say. So, um, mailbag, we're going to run through a few of these really quickly. First of all, our listener, and wait, where can people email us Rob Honey? Always at ProcededeTV at Spotify.com, especially for this show at harpsichordstrapon at gmail.com. And know that will not put you on a list somewhere. I really hope people are enjoying typing that into their emails as they send us these various insights. One of life's great delights, I can assure you. Um, our listener Travis wrote it to say, I usually find the closed captioning very helpful, but during the hailey muck cuck scene, I felt the quote, fluid squelching description was unnecessary. Yeah, I could not disagree more. Okay, tell me. We'd like to spotlight great artists and craft people on this show. Yeah. I think whatever fully artist came up with that exact squelching sound, which we should say occurs after Yaz has requested the dismount. And there's just like this very subtle, very low in the mix. I mean, real sludge in the sewer kind of sound to this thing. Sure, madness. I wouldn't know what, I wouldn't even begin to know how to replicate it. Um, do you think it has anything to do with the fluid squelching sound we heard on the pit that related to brain matter in last week's episodes? I certainly hope not. Wow, you made the exact same scratch. That's incredible. I mean, I am who I am, but this is, this is what I'm getting at. They're different kinds of squelches. And the real artists among us understand what separates one from the other. You and I can only can only dream of being so talented. I love a, a, an inventive closed caption. Mallory and I talk about this all the time in House of R, especially as pertains to stranger things. They love the world word squelch. Definitely. On stranger things closed captioning. So I love to see it here. I was your Alex wrote in say another episode and the Pell High Plate of sausages. What a show. Talk about the sausages at the, at the muck house. Here at the Morts' Slaughts, I like, I have to imagine it's a vice-first. It's not like British. Sure. You know, bangers. You're stuffy British sausages. No, they prefer their sausages. The genuine article. White. Yeah, absolutely. Look, it's the demonstration of excess. It has become the new symbol, right? If you are rich, you get your pile of sausages on this show. Something to aspire. A possession to dearly. There we go. Cherish. Okay. John, especially as it pertains to this episode when we're talking about like anti-semitism, John wrote once more note about episode two is that the guy at the pub says North London, not Northern. Think the setting for the movie, disobedience, racial vice, racial like Adam. So it wasn't about her accent, but he assumed she was Jewish instead of half Lebanese. And like, you know, he uses a slur in regards to see as an episode too. But this will come back around in this episode. But I thought that was an interesting, important distinctive distinction. One listener who goes by just, EEP did not decline to put their name, seem to have created their own email, because they did not want to go on a list, having sent something to harpsichordstraponageemail.com. So they made their own special email to communicate with us. Let us know that it will be cinematic. That quote that yes says to Henry about suicide. A is according to this listener word-forward for line from the sopranos when a mobster threatens Tony's, uh, Gummar. What is, sorry, what show was that? Have you heard of it the sopranos? Maybe I don't, maybe in the wind somewhere. I couldn't place it. Um, it won't be cinematic as sopranos reference that we missed too new, that we might miss as sopranos reference. Our listeners Sam wrote in to let us know that Lord and Lady Muck is an older British expression for people who put on airs and act above their station. This might suggest that since Lord Muck is nothing if not an authentic member of English ability that in the view of the show, no one is actually an authentic noble. They're all just lords and ladies Muck. So, well, no one is an authentic noble. Like it's just shit we made up. It's true. We didn't make it up. Well, yeah, but we collectively as a species made it up. True. Last night, at least on the mail-back corner, do you want to talk about the email we got from a listener who goes by the name Mickey? What do we have? Okay. Someone claiming to be Mickey down per half. Yeah. Rodin say, will not hear any meat Joe Black negativity. Here's what happened. We got an email from an email address that looks like it could be one of the co-creators of this show. In fact, did I reply? No, because I don't want to know if this is fake because I choose to believe that one of the co-creators of the show typed harpsichord strap on a Gmail.com into his email to column and send us an email defending me Joe Black. How do you feel about that? Well, first of all, if you are involved in the making of this show, that's not the first time you've typed harpsichord strap on a Gmail. At least harpsichord strap on into a doc somewhere. So that part makes sense. I simply don't even have it in me to have the full-throated me Joe Black debate at this point. No, I don't even fully understand the debate. So I would, again, I would love to hear the merits from somebody as to why this is a good movie. And we did get a couple emailers attempt to do that. And you don't want to hear it. I am not moved. Okay. I should say, if you are making down on you, email us about me Joe Black. We appreciate the spirit of your endeavor. I don't want to know if this is a fake email, actually. I asked CR. I was like, what do you think? And he was like, because they're like pals with Mickey and Conrad. And CR was like, he's more of a DM guy. I was like, don't destroy my illusion. I choose to believe that this is a really email, but regardless. Where's the line for that? Like if we start getting Kitt Harrington burner emails. Do you want to know? Do you want to know? I want to know. I just, let's live in delusion. Why not? Also, just this isn't an email that we got, but I just want to say elsewhere and press each TV land. Patty Reddenkeev got a message in this episode. And Patty Reddenkeev is the author of, say, nothing, which is a book that a great show that we covered was based on. So I loved that reference. Fabulous show. And Chloe Peary plays Lisa Dern, the business secretary. And we spent a lot of time with her in department Q another show we covered. So I just was really feeling the prestige TV podcast vibes in this episode. The milieu for sure. I mean, and she's great on department Q. If you're not up on that show, I think it's definitely worth your time. She's been testing on the show and she showed up last season to sort of grill our guy, Robert, you know, when he was in front of a grand jury or whatever the British equivalent of that is. And she's back here again, getting a little undercut by Ricky Martin with a Y and Jenny Bevin. So I think it was a great episode too for people who believe they are in control, who are not in control. And she is, you know, unfortunately for her one of those figures. I would be interested. Thanks so much to all the listeners who write in with, you know, little aspects of British culture that might go over our American head. Definitely. And I think especially I was looking for more information on the Ricky Martin character. First of all, like incredible character name, obviously, but also just, is there a comp for this in British politics that I'm missing? This guy who walks in and these two women are like, oh God. This guy. This guy's here. Where's the thing? Was it him specifically or was it more like, oh, who called in the representative for the PM in this meeting? Yeah, but like both. Like, why is the PM elbowing into this meeting? And also this guy, really. And then he slaps down this like very ostentatious headline about Jenny Bevin as the future of the labor party, right? Which certainly put Lisa on the back foot inside of this meeting. She didn't love it. No, do you think so last week's episode we saw Jenny, you know, go toe to toe with Henry's uncle about the use of the press and how can they come to terms? Do you feel like she placed this article in, because we see a lot of placing of articles in the media? Do we think she placed that article or was that done without her, her knowing or was that It's a great question. They thought it would be a good idea to support her. Like, what do you think? I didn't interpret it her. It is her placing it specifically, but her benefiting from the relationships that she's fostering in that way. Like she, she is playing as is every like everything in this episode is a transaction. As it basically is an industry all the time. And she has been playing that particular game with, with the media, the ways that her boss is at least playing differently if playing at all. And this felt like the fruits of that kind of transactional labor for her. Yeah, her reactions said to me, she didn't know that our goal had been written. She felt this is not a move she would have made to sort of assert herself over her own boss, Lisa, but feels like a little obvious as a play for her. Right. But as somebody who, you know, as she is querying favor and gathering these relationships and working with media figures in particular, the more powerful she is, the more they stand a benefit. And so it's like it's one of those things where everyone can sort of end up propping each other up a little bit. I'm going to come back to the journalism angle because we have a lot to say about the legal department and redacting articles and stuff like that. Did it, how much of you in the sports media had to grapple with the legal department in your journalism? Honestly, not that much legal department. Okay, it was trauma for me. For me, it was more when Jennifer Bevin does come to visit the tender offices. And yeah, as a sort of hovering as a communications consultant, that was very familiar to me. I'm like, I think I like, I'm trying to have this conversation with somebody who's pretty, that's like pretty direct or pretty blunt or pretty close. Right. And here's this person just kind of tagging along waiting to provide helpful context. Yeah, to be clear, I love the legal department because they, I haven't had to deal with them with the radio. But when I worked at the very fair, the legal department are very, very important. Right. They keep you honest as a journalist. You know, you can only say what you can prove. Yeah. That's good journalism, right? Absolutely. And they are there to make sure that Kanye Nass doesn't get sued and all these other things. The frustrating back and forth, the waiting for them to come back is just a lot of, it was to use a term that Eric likes triggering for me inside of this episode. You seem triggered, Joe. I am triggered. All right. Let's talk about Girlboss Yaz and also Galeigh Maxwell and also Lady Macbeth and also Elizabeth Holmes. So what does that second one? Galeigh Maxwell ready to get there. How do you reconcile how Yaz is treating Henry in these episodes with what Marissa said about the end of episode two? So to recap in case people didn't listen to the podcast, Marissa Bello plays Yaz said that scene at the end of episode two when Henry's like, baby, and she's like, that she said she would never be safe around him again that she doesn't trust him. Yeah. So how does that translate to the way in which she's handling him in this episode? I mean, this whole episode is a showcase of the ways in which he has is a player in this space. And it has been for a long time. Like this is a woman who for worse was raised by a manipulative abusive father or at least he was in the picture and really raised by a series of nannies that she had to quickly ingratiate herself to and win over in order to get the thing she wanted. And like that bears out in her behavior and her ability to work people, right, to work the angles to find out where it is she can exert her influence. And Henry is maybe the most crucial of all of those pieces, right? Like I think there is a real genuine affection between them clearly. Like these are two people who are attracted to each other, who married each other because it's practical but also because there's some heat and feeling there. And on the edges of it, she can massage everything else to get exactly what she wants, to get into any room that she feels like being in. And to the increasing annoyance, if it seems like most people at Tinder who are like, who is this woman? What is your role exactly? What exactly is your capacity here, which her capacity is whatever the fuck she wants it to be? So far, yeah, she shows up in a high ponytail in a black journal like which is like Elizabeth Holmes drag, like girlboss tech dragged me. And then this is what Bloomberg's Harry Wilson wrote about sort of her interjecting and the board being like, excuse me, what are you doing here? Quote, long time investors in Britain's Metro bank holdings might not along in knowing solace at their fictional counterparts, having seen the company's co-founder and former chairman employ his wife at considerable expense to oversee the design of the startup's branches. So I'm not opposed to as being in this room. There's a lot that she has to say that I think is useful. Why did they just hire Yaz in this position? To be CEO. To be CEO. Well, they need the name. But she has the same name. She does, but it's like, I think the Mary, I mean, look, I'm not going to speak to the ends and outs of the bullet like British political and like social systems, but I would imagine coming from the name means something different than marrying into the name. Uh, you sound like you're entrenched in the British class system. And that's great. People do often say that about me. But no, I mean, I agree with you. I just think, like, I don't want her not in the room. And I'm not like, what is this wife doing here? But it's also like, give her an official job. Like, you know, let her officially be there. I also, I got really nervous when Haley, not the second part of Haley's story in this episode. But when Haley first comes up to her and tells her about what Jim did. Yeah. I got really nervous. This is actually my only succession reference in this podcast. I promise you. But Shiv Roy betraying women who had come to her in a vulnerable space. And we've seen, yeah, it's herself do it. But I got just like real Shiv Roy vibe of like, don't give yas this information. Yeah. Like, this is not a good idea. How did you feel? I mean, obviously, at the same. It's just an incredibly vulnerable place to put yourself with somebody who, as we're alluding to, like, it's incredibly opportunistic and who understands how to leverage exactly these sorts of confidences against people or really not even against people. But for whatever it is that she wants, ultimately. And I think this exchange in this scene and specifically the way it ends, which is Yas trying to give Haley the night off in Vienna. She's like, you're not my boss, actually. Yeah, I can't do that. I need, I need to sign off from Henry or Whitney. To me sets up everything that happens between them from here on out. Right. That is a like, oh, you don't think I have the power to give you the night off. Let me show you what I have the power to. Yeah, I agree. So like, when we get to the, Yas directing her husband and Haley in their ascination, did you get some? That is a word for it. Did you get strong American psychos? Sabrina, don't just stare at it. Eat it. Avives from Yas and this thing. Because I didn't know what I didn't connect those dots, but you're absolutely right. And we should say not the first American psycho reference that we've seen in this show, if that is indeed the case. Some listeners also connected the dots that the early club seen with Haley invokes the exact same new order song that plays in American Psycho went Patrick Bateman is in the club. Unfortunately, not the part in the club where he tells a woman that he's in Dermotors and executions mostly, but the other one. Another American Psycho reference in American Psycho, what a great source for industry to pull from. Sure. Marcus Halbusram, which is, you know, the character in American Psycho who Patrick Bateman, much to his consternation gets confused for. Halbusram is Whitney's last name. So they gave him the same last name and I was like, oh, I wonder if that was on purpose. And then I googled it. And Max Mangelis Instagram, he has forever grateful to Mickey and Conrad for the gift of Whitney Halbusram, a true American Psycho. Wow. And then in the carousel, he has like a great grab from American Psycho. So this is like, it's on his mood board. Yeah, there's clearly something that they're doing here. I like this idea of, I mean, this whole sequence was great, deeply diabolical that Sally Draper, we're going to talk about Matt Men, a good deal more in this episode. But in on the heels of Lady Cordelia talking about men, fucking their fears into women. Yes. This idea that Yaz is like going to make her husband, fuck his fears and do someone else. And then that's what life is all about, outsourcing the emotional labor. There you go. And then consuming the aftermath so that there's no chance of children. Henry's like, let's have a kid and she's like, not only am I not going to have your kid. Yeah. I'm going to make it so that nobody gets your kid. Well, first of all, I'm not quite sure that's how science works. I wouldn't call it a foolproof birth control. Now, if you told me Yaz believes that, maybe she does. Maybe that is exactly what she was after. And we have to say, while we're on her and crafts people on this show, the smash cut from that into the oyster slurp. That's a stroke diabolical. That's how to do it. Just incredible shit. All right. As I mentioned earlier, I was going to talk about Galei Maxwell. And you're like, great. I love to talk about Galei Maxwell on a podcast. Yeah. Speaking of legal, let's just get... Well, the way in which... So I saw this comp come up a lot with the way in which he manipulates Haley or forces Haley into this scenario. And think about Galei Maxwell who was Epstein's right hand woman. Yeah. Okay. You're going to shred your shoulders, but I have something to do with you. I'm not shredding my shoulders. As you say the word force, I understand this is a manipulative situation. There's no question, yeah, this is being manipulative. There's a massive power imbalance in this scenario. Unquestionably true. So something that Kieran and Shipka has said about Haley and that scenario is that Haley is calculating what power can she glean from this? Yes. So yeah, she's not like a completely unwilling participant. She's playing a game, but it's clearly not the same game at the same level. I just would like to, and I'm sorry to do this to you, but I would, I asked you off pod and I told you not to Google it. Do you know how Galei Maxwell's father died? I do, in fact, not know. So this is from the Guardian, a paper over a pew. The title of the article is the murky life and death of Robert Maxwell and how it shaped his daughter Galei. Quote, it is almost 30 years since her father, the press baron Robert Maxwell, fell to his death from his 15 million pound yacht, Lady Galei off the Canary Islands, age 68, even now there's talk of suicide or murder, perhaps by misod in the Israeli intelligence service. So this is- Well, holy shit. Precisely how he has his father died last season. The boat was called the Lydia's Gain, Yasmine. So like they were intentionally invoking Galei Maxwell with Yasmine last season, and now they've put her in this particular scenario. And in this season, so how do you feel about that? I mean, look, this is tremendous detective work from you, Joe. You know, you're really doing- I don't think I'm the first person to point it this out, but I think it's a sharp connection, clearly at a point of influence, where they want to take that, because I think the interesting thing for the show. Because industry has been the kind of series so far, as we've talked about with the American psycho references and all these other things, there's stuff that's like in the ether, and then there's what are we pulling from for plot? Right. And that's all kind of mashed up and thrown in the blender, and we see how it comes out, but that is a hell of a through line. Anytime that I'm drilling for real life influence or cultural illusion, it's not a neg on the show. I think it's interesting to draw from- For sure. ... the real life or the art that you're interested in and put it inside. And there are shows and films that feel like they're just imitating something, and then there are shows and films that are saying, hey, we're people who have seen a ton of films or watched a ton of television, and we want to sort of draw on those inspirations. That's art. That's how art works out. And the deafed hand on industry specifically, to me comes from, like that's a thing that I clearly did not know. I would assume a lot of the viewers of the show did not know. And yet, because it is obviously true, like there is a part of that kind of story and that kind of detail that's just a vocative of the sort of person Yasmine's dad would be, and what he echoes. And like whether you know those dots to connect or not, it's like there is a connectivity there that you can feel if that makes sense. Right. Um, I also want to, I mean, as you know, I'm always on Shakespeare Watch. The way in which Yasmine has moved into this sort of late-immig-beth role inside of her relationship here, I thought it was really interesting that she's voicing and encouraging things that the commander was sort of his Henry's father, quote-unquote, was saying, so like the devil on his shoulder, right? You can fuck that girl. She's your underling. It won't matter. It'll feel great to do it. You're great. You're wonderful. You're powerful. You can accomplish anything. And Henry even calls her out for this, for like the enable or sort of a hate. Exactly. One of her listeners wrote in and thought that I thought that the commander was a real ghost, and I just want to clarify that that's not the case. It is definitely like a psychological projected in just in case that was not clear to everyone. Not an actual, I mean, he's dead, but it's not an actual ghost. Ghost dad, but no, not an actual ghost. Ghost dad is a big, a big tent. Yeah. Within that, the actual ghost dad, there's the spear, like vision quest dad's, there's the acid trip dads, which this also seemed like could be of that variety as well. In addition to some kind of psychological break, there are many kinds of ghost dad. Daddy, daddy issues run abounds. They really do. In this episode. On Ghost Watch, and I'm not talking about the like, he's still wearing the Rolex. So he's still wearing his dead dad's watch. He's still wearing his dad's ghost watch. Yeah. Ghost watch is on him, but Ghost Watch in general, how do you feel about this quote? I'd be dead without you. So just so you know that. It's whatever girl wants to hear. Great. Henry Muck Death Watch, 2026. It's in effect. Okay, I'm going to take us from Goline Maxwell to fascism. Does that sound like a fun place to go? I would love to hear you connect it. How do you want to manage that, Joe? Okay, we've already talked about Goline Maxwell. Another comp that I was thinking about. Do you know about the Mithford sisters? No, who are the Mithford sisters? Okay, the Mithford sisters. Joe, what corner of the internet flash library are you in? No, no, the Mithford sisters I've known about for a long time. I just am learning things about Goline Maxwell. Okay. But the Mithford sisters are, it was like seven women born to a landed gentry family that fell on hard times in the 1930s. And the daughters went in different directions. Some of them became novelists and great writers. And one of them married Oswald Mosley, who was the leader of the British Union of Fascists. And one of them is remembered to have a love child with Hitler. So they went in a couple different directions. Okay. But the idea of the Mithford sisters and this idea of the way in which British, how susceptible Britain was to fascism, there was a real fascist movement in the UK that coincided with the rise of Nazism. Frankly, it was a news. And as in many places. No, no, as in many places. But this idea of fascism as a place to allow yourself when you feel like you deserve to be on the top of the world and you are somehow on the back foot in one way or another. So the Mithford sisters who were born with a name and and huge estate and fell on hard times. And how do we take our whiteness and our breeding and and ensure that we are back on the top of the pile? So way in which Yasmin who was born rich but her father blew their entire fortune. So she had no money and disgrace and scandal around her and has married a name and is now seemingly comfortable, not happy about it necessarily, but yeah, comfortable, cozying up to literal Nazis if it helps her feel like she's back on top of the pile. For what it's worth, I mean, yeah, not entirely comfortable, clearly. No. Right, but understands the compromise that she's making. Like it's going into it pretty clear right? Right. Right. In the vein that she did with her marriage Henry in the first place, right? Of like, is this the decision I would make under any circumstances clearly not? But under these, she's acting in a way that is like quote unquote, pragmatic for the situation to help expedite this merger or this acquisition. But like ultimately, it's obviously morally bankrupt. She knows is wrong. Even before she has to do like the Paul Red style like double take on the Adolf Hitler signature on the painting, like she knows this is fucked up. But she goes into it anyway because she wants what she wants. And ultimately, she wants to like back up and support Henry and build his power base so that it builds her power. Press the needed power for sure. If not power itself. And I think, you know, something that Harper called out in a previous season, I think it was season three was she was talking about Yaz's white passing privilege, right? And so we'll talk a bit about the team that Harper and Eric are building over there. But when you think about Whitney, Halibutstrom who gets hit with a very cityist, anti-Semitic comment of it's always money. Yeah. Halibutstrom, you know, like from from Moritz here. But he has white passing privilege. Yaz has white passing privilege. Their whole, you know, board is now just a bunch of white dudes. And in a way that someone like Jonah who's been booted from the company, Cal Penn, definitely doesn't have. So like they can move in this world with these fucking Nazis in a way that Harper is team cannot. And I think that's interesting. I think the Whitney Jonah contrasts is so sharp in this episode too. Because in Jonah's absence, it only feels like Whitney's becoming more and more like Jonah, right? Like without that personality in the room, he's being a little more swaggering. Just with the way he's talking like this line, my sense is this guy is an alpine fuck boy with an outsized sense of his own relevance and recourse. Like you could plug that line into Jonah's mouth in the first episode and it would feel right at home. And yet he can get away with it because in a lot of ways, because of the way he passes and the rooms he can occupy and because there is a little bit more fluidity to his kind of general social and racial situation than there might be the Jonas. On the Austria finance front, I'm going to quote the Bloomberg recap Harry Wilson. I did not know anything about Austria banking. This is what he says. Austria may be known for many things, but it clean as a whistle baking sector is not among them. If you think this is unfair, look up a minor bank, I'm not sure how to pronounce that, and rejoice in the majesty of perhaps one of the most corrupt organizations to ever breathe corporate air. So an Austrian baking license isn't exactly the financial equivalent of people indulgence. So that is what they're after. They are co-zying up to European power, but like, dicey reputationally, European power. And the power they can co-zip to, right? It's kind of like, what is the power base that is already compromised enough that they would want to do business with us, a bunch of like porn payment middlemen effectively. Right. Yeah, yeah. And I thought your spot on, Joe, in terms of like the kinds of people for whom fascism would appeal. I think are those sorts of like down on their luck, noble families or classes. There's also a degree of like just wealthy enough to be exempt from the actual problems of real life, but just low enough on the totem pole to feel slided. Right. And it's like, there really is a sweet spot for whom this sort of consolidated power really appeals. And you know, clearly their substacts are just like, the subscriptions are flying off. And feeling like you'll be inoculated from the consequences of a fashion. You get to reap all the benefits of the supposed efficiency without any of the damage to literally everybody else. Right. This is where I want to do Neal Drop Corner. And it does not have to do with the literal Nazi anthem that we hear play inside of this episode. Thank you. Which I guess has been like, band, which is great. You're not allowed to play that song that they play in this episode. You're not allowed to play it in Germany. Great. Which is a good idea. We should ban more music, not all music, but some please tell me that this Neal Drop Corner is about Ori Noko Flow. Do you want to talk about Anya? I'm going to make room for you to talk about Anya if you want to. I just thought it was lovely. Yeah. There's a perfect detail. I like, if you're going to show us and play a song for us on loop while somebody's on hold, this is the sort of pure mood that I'm after. You know, capital P capital M love that. This is about a sukiyaki, which we're going to talk about in a second. This plays when Harper's waiting in the suki restaurant. And this is a section I'm calling the madmen piece. This is a larger madmen piece. This is an O2Dar friend, Ky Grady, who loves madmen, but just thinking about the way in which the DNA for that show, this is the third episode in a row now that has had a Neal Drop from madmen in it this season. That's crazy. Now to be clear, madmen use most of the great music for the 1960s. So like, you know, like, it's not necessarily every time a direct madman illusion, but we got this, the listener who wrote in just under the name, EEP, um, wrote in to say the Cordelia auto sex scene from last week's episode, walking in mimics the framing of Sally Draper walking in on Megan's mom going down on Roger in madmen season five episode seven, which traumatized Sally. But of course, this play by Karen and Chip go. And the episode two Neal Drop is that all there is also plays in madmen beginning Don's final bender in the back half of the last season. So that again, that's three episodes in a row. Yeah, we've had a madmen Neal Drop. Um, I do want to talk about Sukeyaki in a second, which is one, like, I actually have a playlist that's just titled Sukeyaki and it is all the versions of that song because I love that song and always have. So what is your reaction when Harper walks into the restaurant and you hear it bang and like, what are you fist pumping on your couch? Are you Leo pointing at the screen? What's happening? Did I like leap up and I know that that's used in madmen. So I was like another madmen, but like also I just rewound it and like, and then I played it, I think I played it like nine times driving into the office today. Um, and she's complaining that he's 15 minutes late when she gets to listen to Sukeyaki. That's what I'm saying. Are you kidding me? Sukeyaki by the way is the American name of the song, um, which is a really dumb name for the song because it just means like beef soup, which is not anything that the song has to do with. Um, we'll get back to that a second, but I want to talk about, let's talk about the Eric and Harper relationship and how it maps onto the dawn and Peggy relationship. Is that something you've thought about? Is that something that makes any kind of sense to you? Well, walk me through it. What are you thinking? This idea that it's paternal, but also not. This is his protege. They have a fraught relationship. Sometimes there are an opposite sides of something. Sometimes they're together. Um, and attempt to connect with like your work daughter because you can't connect with your real-life daughter. That checks out for sure. Um, like Sally draper is here inside of this show, but we meet Eric's very like Sullen probably for a reason, uh, daughter. And like, I don't know, just the way that he's robe goblinning around the sweet seems very like inappropriate boundaries. Don Draper's style. What do you think? No doubt, but it's like that's always a boundary that, like that's kind of the one boundary Don didn't cross in some ways. Yeah. No, I mean, like he, he like gallantly kissed Peggy's hand, but he never tried it with Peggy. Right. And Eric, uh, I think Cross that line with Yaz. He is not Cross that line with Harper, and I would like him not to. He hasn't, but he's also sleeping with women who like don't not look like Harper, who don't not fit her profile in a lot of ways. It's like that is kind of the fundamental difference to me. Is there something happening within the Eric Harper relationship that is just blatantly psychosexual in ways that Don and Peggy never really had? They'll a lot, there's a lot of complicated dynamics and work between them and that makes madmen so great. But this is something twisted and weirder and different. And so yeah, there's like an echo there, but it's, uh, it's the dark shadow of that relationship. I like that. I think it makes a lot of sense to me that madmen is something that they would, uh, when you and I were talking before we recorded about, a madmen's kind of having a moment with its placement on HBO, uh, streaming, uh, Kai was telling us that when he's done with an upset of industry, HBO's like, do you want to watch madmen? You know, like it's HBO knows what it's doing in that regard. Feels a little weird to be like, Hey, did you just watch Kiernan Shipka act out a three sum? Here's young Sally Draper. Um, but this is life. Like everything's on the, like, we're on a flat time. But the idea of capitalism and its connection to storytelling is so keenly, uh, explored and madmen and also this show, right? This idea of identifying a need and then exploiting it. So I'm just going to hit you with some, uh, Don Draper quotes. And I'm going to ask you if you feel like it could belong inside of this show. Let's do it. Uh, advertising is, advertising is based on one thing, happiness. Investing is based on one thing, happiness. Yeah, I mean, it sounds like a lot like the happiness is a full stomach in this episode a little bit. If you don't like what's being said, change the conversation. Yeah, that's almost word for word from this season. People want to be told what to do so badly that they'll listen to anyone. Yes, believes it. You are the product. You feeling something that's what sells not, uh, to them not sex. If you told me that was part of the Yaz pep talk to Henry in his office, I would in fact believe you. Okay. And here's just some storytelling lines from this episode of industry, right? The story ends where we say it ends, right? How good a storyteller are you and how long can you sustain the story? So we can prove it and then can we be loud enough? Short only work is ugly, hard, investigative. Anti-standas quo anti establishment anti power. Um, and then last night, at least this is I think the most on draper core thing that Eric says, Tom, you enjoyed yourself. Tom, you had a good time here. Is that not? I can see the words coming out of John Hans, Malvin, fortunately. Go tell mom you enjoyed yourself. As you hand her money, that's the crucial part. But again, like this is not this is not at all a knock on industry. I just think this is, we've been, we were already talking about the way storytelling crops up again and again and again and again. And so what is the story? How can you change your own story? What story can you paint to these investors? Now, Harvard is a, I think, shit job. Anti-Be clear, Eric doesn't even shit our job in that meeting that they put together in there. It's not good teamwork. In the suite that is also their office, like that's like that is simply not where I would have had that meeting. Like to expose that we are living here and working here is not what I would have done. But they're usually quite, this is a thing that Harper is gifted at. We saw her do it, especially a lot in season two of just sort of selling a narrative to someone and convincing them to go the way that she wants them to go inside of the market. And so this is their task is to help Jim on the journalism side and we'll talk about that in a second put together this story of tender is weak actually. Yes. Tender needs to be shorted. Not just weak, but ultimately flawed legally and morally. Right. Anything else you want to say about that before I get back to CKK, I think I'm favorite songs all the time. Well, I would say just as far as the Harper piece of that, like she really succeeds only in planting like the barest seed of intrigue. And it's really just off of not even like half baked would be putting it kindly, right? Just like the implication based off a width of air that something is going on with tender. And like there is just enough curiosity to get like one investor on the phone basically with absolutely ridiculous terms that Eric agrees to. I think in large part because of this weird relationship he has with Harper, right? It's like at this point, he's not really after the money. Men are obsessed with legacy, but he's got a nice nest egg. He could have just golfed his way into oblivion if that's what he really wanted to do. He's trying to find work life balance. Him being thought like the proponent of work life balance is incredible. Yeah. But like that's what he wants out of this in a way, right? It is a job. It like sure makes a money, whatever. But he wants this relationship with Harper. And the fact that by the end, he's like, I will like foot this $10 million risk. Right. And I ask an exchange just that you tell me a little bit about your life and the speed Joe with which she shuts that shit down is incredible and heartbreaking. And like just like a really sad turn for this character who doesn't have a lot else. Like if we're going to talk about like the legacy of Eric, like his children barely know him, he barely knows them. He has made all of these like trade-offs in his life to make money that he doesn't even really care to spend at this point. And so when you talk about like the ways in which I show like this in Mad Men echo each other, those echoes are just like humanity, right? Like those are just like the natural modern trade-offs and concessions that we make and what we're willing to give up for what we think we want. Not every person, but a certain personality. Certainly, a certain kind of person at a level of affluence. And a certain kind of from my perspective, American personality, you know? We do it better than anybody else. I do think it's interesting that like Harper Harper is really trying to make nothing personal. One of the other fact that she just hired like her boyfriend, her, her, her, at least friends with benefits. Her hookup, yeah. Right? That's messy. But she's just like, let's like nothing personal. Let's keep it clean. For Yaz, everything is personal, right? Everything is messy. Like way in which she, I'm not saying her like true emotions are involved, but like she's at work with her husband. She's involved, she's ensnared Haley inside of this like sexual dynamic. When she's talking about how to deal with Princess Johanna, Johanna, no relation once again, and her terrible Nazi son, she says, testy family members respond well to a bit of FaceTime and ego massage, right? So this is like what she learned from Celeste, et cetera of like, this is how you manage people. You make it feel like a personal relationship. And Harper is like business, business, business. Do you know what I mean? I would say Harper is until she isn't. But like she wants to keep everyone at arm's length. Yeah. But also her appeal to sweet pea is basically like, I would never lie to you. I promise you, I would never leave this with that without giving you a heads up. Like, yeah, trusting Harper at her word, I think is just probably a terrible idea. And anyone who's been around her for any period of time would know that. And I'm sure sweet pea does on some level too. But it's like Harper isn't above the personal play when that is what suits her. You're right. And she definitely would like use that on Eric or you know, when she needed to and stuff like that. But you're right there for yes, it's like the defaults. Right. Right. I think she understands maybe better than anyone else on the show. I'm not saying this picks her a good person, but like how all knotted up all of this shit is the way that how like the fact that her mind would go from we have this business problem to I need to leverage my like now married in relatives, publishing influence to get this Nazi a byline so that we can clear away for this merger like she gets the way that modern power works and the ways that like soft power specifically can be leveraged right. I think everything that happens in terms of the room with Jennifer Bevin is an extension of Yaz's influence. Exactly. Like she just gets that better than anybody else. It's what they call like soft skills right like and tender skills. She understands that that's how power works inside of this this context. Okay. What I want to say about Sukiyaki specifically is thinking about the trend that Yaz and her team are taking towards white nationalism, fascism, all of that. Right. Sukiyaki, which was this hit song in the US is seen as this example of a post-war to sort of like globalization of Japanese culture. This idea of like Sukiy restaurants, Shogun, you know, this Japanese language pop hit. So the way in which like multiculturalism post-war to the like benefits of that, you know, expansion across the globe. And again, when you think about the team that Harper Stern Tao has put together like this I just like in just such a sharp contrast to the whiteness in the white passing of the other team that is the massing on the other side of the chess board here. I think it's really interesting. Absolutely. The way it's used in Madman isn't an episode where Dawn Draper has to basically tell Mohawk Airlines after he has promised them that he will do business with them. He has to let them go and that he's at a Japanese restaurant and this waitress approaches him and she's like, hi, you look handsome and alone. That's the often does. Should we do something about that? And he's like for once in his life, Dawn Draper says no, because he feels so bad about basically cheating on Mohawk Airlines that he is faithful to Betty for literally probably the only time in his life. And that is the song that is playing. So I don't know. It's just like, I don't know if that's why they picked this song or if they were just like, this is a banger we agree with you. Joanna, we also have a playlist that's just called Sukiyaki. But like, I think it's interesting to think about those themes of like, when do you keep your word? When do you feel on your word? When Harper gives her word or Yaz gives her word in this episode, I don't believe either of them. And that's an interesting place to be. That's another way in which you could think about madmen is like Dawn Draper constantly did reprehensible things and we're still rooting for him at the end of the day. And that's true of a lot of these people in this world too. I think industry does an impeccable job of that. Yeah. Again, Yaz is not a person who I would ever endorse the things that she does. But I am invested in that character's outcome. And I am obviously invested in Harper's. I think the balance of those ideas are so interesting, Joe, in terms of the team she's putting together and especially coming from a position in which she was put as like a woke figure head leader, a token leader of this fund into getting the power and influence in one that she legitimately does run through a relationship that she legitimately did build fucked up as it may be. And when given the choice to build her team, like she is hand selecting people who in their ways are kind of outcasts in the space or overlooked in the space or there are walls of power that will prevent them from ever getting where it is that they think they want to or need to go. And Harper is the kind of character who I don't know what she would do with that. I don't know to what extent she sees that as a play in the same way that she was a play for somebody else. I almost never trust her motivations. I think that's because the show has painted her to be exactly so incredibly unpredictable. And so incredibly clever and squirrely and evasive in terms of like ever getting pinned down in any one direction so much that she would be the one lever. Like she always finds a way out in a way that I think is like incredible and deeply admirable in some ways, but also underhanded when it needs to be absolutely. All right, you mentioned Yaz is proximity to the fourth estate to journalism. So both Yaz and Harper have these two different arms of journalism sort of working in concert with them, right? Because the power to place an article be it about Jenny Bevin's future, you know, in the labor party or get this Nazi a byline, so perfectly put it earlier, right? Through the by count Norton, her uncle. So there's that and that is like legacy media. Yes. And then you've got and I think the implications like tabloid legacy media a little bit. Is it like is it the sun? I thought it was like more like more steam than that telegraph guardian. Maybe you're right. Maybe you're right because he's like, he's like, we're going to print this story about your dad's death. Maybe the sun. Maybe it's walking the edge of like splitting the difference between the two. Harpsichord strap on a Gmail.com. If you if you in the UK have a better sense of the comp here for for this particular slice of journalism, but our guy Jim at this financial institution much, much scrapier sort of, nobody gives a shit about this particular journalistic endeavor. And it's interesting because like what yes is doing is definitely corrupt. I'm just placing what stories I want to place in this paper. Yes. But it's not like what Jim and Harper doing or doing is above board. Yeah. And I feel like I've seen this. I, you know, a comp that I made to you before we started recording was this 2003 BBC Miniseries state of play, which is incredible. And what I told you is that you're surely familiar with this of the gift of James McAvoy sweating and like fanning himself. That's from state of play 2003, but that's Bill Nye Johnson, David Morrissey. And it's about the intersection of journalism and politics in the UK and 2003 and and scandal. It turns out the two are related. It's crazy. But the way which that miniseries, this is an incredible miniseries gets into what does it mean to speak truth to power? What does it mean to be an incredibly flawed and vulnerable journalist yourself and go up against? Because he's got truth on his side, but he's also does messy. I mean, there's maybe some access to grind or a sense of like wanting to reestablish his honor. I don't know if you made this association, but as Harper is kind of like testing the waters and like why he's doing this and mentions that he not only got like worked in the FTX mess, but then wrote about it, reminded me a lot of, I don't want to call out this woman by name, but the writer at the financial editor, I believe, a writer at the cut who then talked about the way in which she was financially scammed. And it's like, there's one thing to like go through these experiences. And then there's another level of like, oh, I'm going to mine this for content. Right. And then where that puts you and kind of like what it says about the state of the media industry, what it says about your need to establish a certain kind of voice, the like, why would you ever do that? Even if that were true, even if you did go like way over your skis and get involved in FTX in a way that you might, why would you ever write about that? Right. And it's this idea of I promise I wouldn't talk about succession, but like thinking about succession and like, don't make promises. You can't be a joke. I should, it's very Harper and Yaz of me. But like, this idea and science succession of like, we've done something horrible. We are very powerful. We've done something horrible. So like, you know, Whitney knows what tender is doing. He knows what gorgeous Jeffrey is doing in Sunderland. Like he's aware. I mean, working Excel. That's all. But can you prove it? And is anyone going to listen? Yeah. And you're going to publish, but did anyone click on it? Yes. You know, how do you write? How do you cut above the noise? Right. How do you rise? How do you prove it? And how if you are in Jim's position, which is like, this is pretty inside baseball as far as journalism goes, but it's. You hear from sources all the time if you're a journalist doing your job. And maybe the most critical part of your job is first asking yourself, why is this person telling me these things? What acts do they have to grind? Exactly. What acts do they have to grind? What do they have to gain or to benefit? And look, there are people who will just share stuff for the sake of sharing stuff because they care about the broader sense of whatever industry they work in. Like that's not saying that doesn't happen. But like virtuous whistleblowers exist, but usually they have an extra grind to work. Or stand a profit quite a bit in the way that Harper does. Like Harper is going to have access we can only presume to a lot of information and already has some as far as to what tender is doing. Right. And Eric says the blowback of leaking the story piecemeal to her is huge. Why is Jim doing this at all? That he's making himself vulnerable. He's making Harper vulnerable. So the way in which Harper and Jim, though they're both right about tender, those she and sweet pea do like shoe leather reporting. They really do. You should have gone to Sunderland obviously, but like it might not matter if the way in which they did this was shady enough that tender can prove that. You know, we wanted to shout out the actor who plays Jim's editor, David Wilmont. This show loves a ginger, by the way. They do. Kenny's back. Kenny's the back. David Wilmont, who we both know from station 11. He was recently in Hamnet, plays his editor, who gives him back like the redacted version of his piece. I'm hopeful because that's an actor that I like know and recognize and really like that we're going to get a lot more of this sort of like editorial, journalistic, you know, like if Jim spins out, because he seems quite chaotic. Yeah. Like is there a way in which his editor can like carry on the piece or something like that? I don't know, but that's something I'm on. I mean, that relationship has to have legs on this show. You almost don't introduce Jim as a character unless one you're very interested in getting into journalism in some aspect and clearly this season is and also you want to establish this as like not a co leading world of the show, but a counter balancing one that can be weaponized, you know, or can be manipulated or or in some ways can check in theory some of the powerful basis in practice. I have my doubts. Why the fourth estate is there, but what can I do? But I do think this show has become, you know, there were complaints in last week's episode that the show lost the thread on being a show about finance and you certainly couldn't say that in this episode. We are back to the world of finance in a serious way inside of episode three, but this season in the greater introduction of politics, even more so than we've had before and the introduction of journalism, it's sort of like this triangulated or the nobility than it's like a square of like power. It's power. It's money. It's nobility. It's it can be journalism influence and politics, you know. See how it argues never about finance. I mean, you and I and Jody love this show and we spent the first episode trying to figure out what a short was exactly. It's like those mechanisms are the trappings, right? They are the ways that the show like propels forward, but they're not really what it's about. And Kenny, who's back, has this incredibly juicy line. The biceye is full of tyrants who deny their tyranny, the sell side is full of slaves who deny their servitude, sell more in the middle, all of human life. Kenny, poet on the walk and talk to the element making it look easy. Yeah, yeah. Just pop down from his desk has this stuff locked and loaded. How do you feel about, and again, Harp's the Christrap on a GMO.com because we are not financial experts. No. And then legally, we are required to say on this podcast, we are not financially financial advice from us. But we've got a bunch of fictional companies banging about pure point, tender, you know, et cetera, et cetera. But occasionally get a Goldman Sachs or in this case, the Deutsche Bank, like do you, do you like, does that mean anything to you that they occasionally go to like a real financial institution or? I think it's helpful only as a shorthand, right? In this case, it's like kind of shots fired at Deutsche Bank. It's like, oh, this is a real step down for Kenny in a lot of ways. Look, Kenny. So it helps contextualize, right? What these institutions, the real ones are in relation to the fictional ones. Right. Um, we get Kenny in this episode. We get good old Hillary Wyndham, like last scene wearing a mask on the pure, no, probably not last scene, but like really memorably in season two wearing a mask on the floor. Yeah. And then at one point, he gets like a bust of himself out from a package. I don't know if you remember that season two. I said, oh, don't. But Hillary, who was like, yeah, as a supervisor, Kenny supervisor. So we get him on the phone. And is there anyone else from a previous season that you're dying to see come back? Oh, my God. It's a great question. I'm trying to think who would even be on the bench. I think the moment when they were at, I think it was, it was at Goldman where Daria and Kenny were like on the other side of the table from them was like a truly wonderful moment. Daria, I'm always ready for Daria to come back. Of course. Yeah. Is there anyone else you would like to see? I have a great answer. I need to brainstorm on it. You mentioned Eric's very risky financial stake in this. $10 million. Doesn't seem like a good decision. Just to buy your surrogate work daughter, a pony. I wouldn't do it personally. Sure. Is this going to go well for him? Is this going to be fine? Does anything go well for anybody on this show? Very question. I think, look, once you reach a certain level of power, things can only get so bad. In a sense, Eric is risking that level of power. He's risking the installation that would allow him to go about his life in a devil-made care way. So this could be a real come-up in for him. I hope not. In the same way that I'm rooting for another care, two, Eric is not great himself in terms of some of the decisions he makes and the ways he treats people. I know he is now our bastion of work-life balance, but has not always been such true. Can I ask you a really important question, Ron? Please. I have a future as, I believe it's our colleague, Kitty Baker, who used this term in her recap last week to Rob Goblin your way through life. Would you rather dressing down Harpsichord, heroin, Rob Goblin your way through life like Henry Muck or Newhorish, $10 million to burn, hotel room service forever, Rob Goblin your way through life like Eric? I don't know what it says about me, but for some reason, Eric feels sadder. There's something about even being like a borderline haunted manor that is now a museum playing on the Do Not Play Harpsichord-slash sniffing drugs while you do it. Feels less sad than being perpetually in a hotel room in the same row, beating the same room service every day. There's just something a little too old boy to that for me. Do you have a go-to room service order? I mean, burger is the safest bet. That's your bet. Okay. I mean, with all due respect to the fine room service cooks out there and the hotel shifts. Yeah. Most hotels I'm just not trusting that much beyond the burger. It's a fine club sandwich, maybe a salad. Okay, tell you what mine is. Please do. It's, and I don't usually do like, it'll be like a breakfast because usually like one more in hotels where like traveling for, or like often traveling. Very true. Like if I'm paying for room service in a hotel, it's because I'm expensing this hotel. Not out of pocket. Not out of pocket. Right? No. That's right. I would love a $32 omelette. It's eggs-bending. Eggs-bending. See, that's wild. You're trusting. You're trusting hotel eggs-bending. Your life to hotel holidays. Yeah. I simply could not joke. Hotel holidays and you know I come. All right. Anything else you want to say about the sub-sub? We have a sub-sub. I did want to talk about one more thing, Joe, as far as Harper and Eric are concerned. You know, they have this big confrontation in the hotel suite, which I assume will just be the setting of all their confrontations from now going forward. Well, they did leave the house. That's good. They went to Deutsche Bank. I did appreciate that suite. He was like really on a roll, like explaining the ins and outs of this like a deep investigative work she was doing only to be interrupted by Eric flushing the toilet in the other room. mortifying. Also, we should talk about Rishi showing out here. Oh, sure. Yeah. But let's let's go back to them in a second. I think the kind of like paired desperation, whether they're aware of it or not, between Harper and Eric circumstances, where she goes out on a limb and is just like saying very plainly, like how important this is to her that this kind of is true only like to stand on. And I think you can see it in the way she's conducting herself or she's always been a work of holic. But it's always Harper. It's true. I feel like I feel like when I think of Harper, I think of her from season one on with like koki eyes, like rapidly chewing gum. Everything's on the edge of the laps always, right? I mean, it's kind of the only way she knows that operate is everything is on fire and it burns down. And then she tries to grab onto something else and sets that on fire and burns it down. But the way in which she's kind of leaping into this investigative work too, I mean, it's it is a journalism of a different kind. Like she is leveraging and working gym in order to like basically manipulate tender share price. But she's also the one who's on hold getting into that or a no go flow in a way that's like, I don't know like the process parts of this episode. Yeah. People spotlight are a little like enlightened season two are a little like pelican brief. Like there's, there's just like pouring through. Yeah. And a way that I obviously appeals to people like us who have done like if you've done any kind of digging or journalistic work before. Well, you say pelican brief and I'm sure if Mickey and Conrad are listening and actually emailing us about me Joe Black, they're excited because they're like 90s thriller. That's what we're going. Oh, and a good one. Yeah. Yeah. Me, Joe Black is not a thriller. It's not pelican brief. But it is 90s. Pelican brief rules. If they're like, we're going we're doing full we're going full grish. Yeah. Like that's great bad news for journalists inside of those. It doesn't really usually work out for journalists. I'm not I'm not betting big on Doth and Byerson's rager things making it through this season. No, I think it's it like that's a bit of like a casting spoiler in its own way where it's like casting somebody who was most recently known for being like a teenager on a beloved vintage property. Maybe this guy is in over his head in ways he can't even begin to comprehend. It's like the apocalypse and also journalism too hard things to wrap your arms around the true upside down. But what is Eric brain to this like you're talking about how for inspiration what do you feel like Eric is brain. Well, I think he's in his way just as vulnerable, but almost doesn't care. It's like everything he's putting on the table, everything he's putting at risk, he seems like not oblivious to it, but it's like whatever man. This feels well, this feels very like it's very in the water right now. This very like late dawn draper or if you prefer end of Marty's Supreme or end of J. Keller or whatever where it's like is dad is being a dad important actually is that the most important thing is dad okay is dad okay. Well, dad's never okay, but like it is interesting because you know you talked about last week I think you talked about Henry and Yaz and their like sort of twin daddy issues right Harper and her twin issues right, but like there's the daddy issues on that side of the story and then there's like Eric being the issue ridden daddy on this side of the story which I think is really interesting. How do you read all that from Harper's perspective because she's like she wanted Eric here. Yeah, you know, so it's like she is also pursuing this relationship in a way, but is Eric just more of a means to an end for her? Do you think there actually is something more to that relationship back to like when you think back to season one and the moment where Eric locks Harper in that room and then she then like reports on him and then sort of recants and Daria's out and so like that. Do you feel like she like she was actually terrified in that moment when she was locked in the room with him? I would need to go back and check the tape. My memory of it and like again, maybe this is just all for cumulative actions kind of coloring my perspective is that yeah, there's an element of fear, but there's also the story you can tell. And there's also the way you can use this. Because like and then he also he fired her allegedly for her own good. Like is that how you did you believe him when he was like when he exposes her at peer point, did you believe that he did that for her own good? That's the story he told us the viewer, but do you believe that's why he got rid of her? I don't. I mean, I guess maybe the answer to all these questions for me is like kind of both. You know, like I do believe on some level, he thinks that is it the actual driving course of his actions? Probably not. So with nowhere to turn, she turns to Eric because she knows that he has some sort of like weird attachment to her and that she can sort of leverage her position with him towards something. I think it comes from that. Yeah, but will there forever be trusted? Is there too much damage for there to be like an actual partnership there? I think there is a weird kind of trust. And some of it is like in yes, she is turning to Eric because that's a relationship she can work and someone who like an ally in a sense, even if it's an opportunistic one, but it's also someone who actually does sort of understand her on a level that other people don't right and see something and her there's like a mutual understanding between them of like we are this kind of person. And regardless of the stories we tell or what we project to the world or even what we do to each other, like that's never going to change. Yeah. Speaking of broken trust forever, we should talk about Rishi. So he shows up. Sweet Peas like fuck this I'm out. You and I were talking about how did it all actually end with Rishi and Sweet Pea last season? Was there something that he did directly to her? There are smaller cuts that he made to Sweet Pea, but it seems like her reaction here is as much based on these this public perception of Rishi that he was involved in his wife's murder, which he was involved in his wife's murder. But like that he maybe murdered her or something like that. So I don't believe that Harper will not be turning to Rishi again when she needs someone to do work for her. I don't I believe that Harper will try to make it that Sweet Pea and Rishi are not in the same room again, but you know needs must. You know take what she can take. Also it's worth noting Sweet Pea's objection was not even necessarily like you can't work with this guy. It's I don't ever want to be in the same room. Yeah, don't put me in the same room. Like do not put us together ever again in any context. Um, anything else you want to talk about? I thought this was just a fine episode of TV. Fine you're using fine in like the very positive. Oh yes, like I quite enjoyed it. I quite enjoyed just like the twists and turns that industry takes. I don't know when it's like could you have seen the Adolf Hitler twist coming a little bit sure. Yeah, but seeing it play out and seeing all of the layers build of like again, the, the deals we're willing to make with ourselves and with our situation in order to like facilitate whatever business ventures we have. Like even with all of that kind of slowly layering, I appreciate I appreciated the structure of it. Okay. So this has been a great a fine episode of this podcast. A fine fine episode. If we're clipping anything for social media, I think it should be you and isolation, just saying get this Nazi a byline endorsed by Rom. What are you trying to do here? And we missed Jody Walker a lot. Obviously we will be talking to her about every squelch when she returns for episode four. Yeah. Press the cv it's bought a fine calm harpsichord strap on at gmail.com. If you have me Joe black opinions or anything else and we will, you know, we'll be back. Anything else you want to say about like we're how many episodes and we're three episodes into is an eight episodes. I believe it's an episode season. We're almost halfway done. That's wild. Thanks to Devon Ronaldo. We'll be back. Always. Bye. Bye.