Inside Area X, Oklahoma: What’s Happened in the Last 5 Years

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So settle in because today you'll hear another account that just might change the way you see the woods forever. So stay with us. I've got Rick with me. Rick is on the board of directors for the NAWC for about two years. And of course, we're talking about the organization based down there in southeast Oklahoma, as we'll hear more about. Rick has been in the mental health profession for 18 years with a doctorate in forensic psychology. So a little bit of information about him, but welcome to the show, Rick. How are you doing today, sir? I'm doing really well. Thank you. How are you? I'm doing great. A little information about how this all came about. I had an individual from your organization reach out to me about a previous episode and this individual was like, hey, we would love to kind of touch base with this person you talked to. And I was like, I would love to touch base with you guys. And thankfully we were able to work something out as we were talking about beforehand. It has been about five years since there's, I guess you could say maybe a public update about what's been going on with the NAWC. So we will see about where our conversation will lead today and what kind of information we'll get through updates. But, you know, again, it's a pleasure to have you on. Is there anything else that listeners would need to know about you, Rick, before we get started? Well, I don't think I would put myself in the typical big foot hunter category, if that's what you want to say. I was never too much into outdoor activity. I enjoyed it just to get to do it very much. I've always loved the topic, but wasn't really sure what I'd be able to participate or what I would be able to bring to the group. You know, I'm not a hunter. I'm not an outdoorsman, but I can observe and I am willing to make the drive from Arizona to Oklahoma multiple times a year. Boots on the ground and I could keep field notes and take pictures and do other things that need to be done. So I think sometimes people feel they have to have a certain set of skills or attributes to be successful in a group like this. And I don't, I think it's more just your willingness to participate and learn. That's fantastic. How about this? Can you think of a situation where you experienced something at the beginning of your time in Area X where things got extremely real for you? You're like, oh, this place is not just a story like this is actually happening right here. Yes. I'm fortunate in the sense that my first venture in there, it rained a lot. It rained a lot that week, which is notorious for rain in that area. I don't remember if it was the second or third night, but we sit around what we call a dark camp. So we don't have lights. We don't have a fire. We just kind of spread out in front of where we're camping with thermal imagers and just listen and watch, see what we can detect. And I remember Kathy Strain had said on, I believe it was one of the documentaries out there. Anyway, she said, they're always watching you. Just assume they're always watching you. I told the gang I want to try something and I know being the new guy, I know everything's been tried before, I just picked up a big rock from next to me and I chucked it into the woods in front of us. And about 30 seconds later, we hear that indistinctable sound of something coming through the tree tops and we hear a thud on the ground. And we're like, all right, let's, they're here. So we got out a three man slingshot. So two guys holding the, the rubber, giant rubber band gone to the other one leaning back and we fired rocks into the woods and we'd get, I think we had three or four come back at us and then it just stopped. But I, yeah, I remember thinking that's okay. Well, this doesn't happen normally. So, and just getting down there. I mean, you do realize, I mean, you've been told over and over and over hearing about area X, how remote it is. But once you get out there and see it and try to walk it, you realize this, there's nobody out there is, is in that situation. So that, that got my attention pretty quick. I've had several things out there were like, okay, this is, this is the real deal out here. Absolutely. For listeners that I just had a thought, I was like, there's going to be some listeners that have, they probably won't know the area that we're talking about. Do you have an elevator pitch of what area X is? I mean, that's a tricky one. That's a great, great question. So I would just say, yeah, down in the Southeast corner of Oklahoma and the Washington mountains. It's a secluded area. I mean, there's, there's been cabins, I think throughout the years, but it's very difficult to get down in there. There's a lot of private land down in there. But yeah, it's the terrain is I've never, I've never experienced anything like that. Living in Arizona, I've done a lot of hiking. You have to keep your eyes on the ground a lot to survive out there. It's pretty rough. I actually missed a sighting watching where I was walking. And so it gets a lot of rain. I know it's a, I think we call it a moderate rain force. It gets a lot of rain every year. And I've been in there a couple of times where there's just, you can't do much of anything. You just have to wait out the rain. It's so heavy and so solid. But because of that, there's also a lot of, a lot of resources, a lot of food, a lot of animals, a lot of wildlife. It's a beautiful area. And it's a little bit scary at the same time. I want to clarify something with you because you said you were watching the ground and I was like, well, so because I'm aware you've got a lot of snakes and things in there. I mean, it's a dangerous area, right? Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah. If you don't like spiders, you might want to skip out or don't be the first guy walking in line through paths. But a lot of spiders, a lot of snakes, rattlesnakes and copperheads out there. So not only watching we were going there, but just the uneven ground and the rocky terrain. It's, yeah, I've fallen several times. I don't know how, you know, I've made it out there fine. I know some people have hurt themselves out there, but it's not hard to do. And another interesting fact, it's a treacherous drive even to get into that area, correct? Right. That's correct. You have to have a certain type of vehicle to get in there. Some people have been a little braver than others. So they've attempted to get in there, but I'm going in for my seventh week of research this summer and I'll be white knuckling it just like you did the first six. It's, yeah, it's a ride. How many years are those seven weeks spread out over that you've been in there? I think I first went in in 2022. It was my first summer in there. I did the first couple of summers I did. I did two weeks split up and then I've gone in for the last just one time a week. You know, life and other obligations obviously step in, but I wanted to get as much as I could those first couple of years. Absolutely. So let's get into it then. What are maybe some interesting events or potential discoveries that you've had as an organization in the last five years in this area? We've had one of the most amazing trackways I've seen. I didn't get to see it until months and months and months after it was discovered, but it was still pretty pristine when we saw it. It was pretty clearly of two individuals that just wandered around this one area and we had a tree twist. On there we collected some hair samples and I think later in that same week they found another trackway down where Elton Higgins had the famous mud hole track that he found. That's where he kind of realized he's in a good area and it was in that same spot that was just trailed off into the woods. So we've had that. We've done a lot of, there was some really good field work done on that. We're still looking at getting some information out of that. And we did start what we call, well we call it the asset team, but it's a team at camp made up strictly of females, female researchers. And they don't go in there acting like our normal research teams. They're just camping. They're just having fun. They're cooking by the fire. They go for day hikes, whatever they're doing. But then we have another team that's about a mile or so away camped and they will sneak in over time at night and monitor the hills, monitor the area. And we've had some pretty interesting things happen with those teams. So we're continuing with that. I think this is our, I think this will be our third year doing that. So had a pretty decent bluff charge from one of our members and we got some thermal imaging that we can't quite determine what it is. It looks big, but with thermal imaging it's, it can be really hard to discover what that is. But so we're, we've been doing that as well for the last few years. That is all incredible. How long would you say that track track way went for that you were able to, you were able to follow it? So it's, it went around an old building. So it looks like they came up from one area, I'd say walk in maybe 50, 50 feet, circle this building. And then they walked off into a field or whatever you want to call it, a little clearing. And even in there, you see divots and push down of old tracks that have been there for a long time. But these were, these are really good, really good tracks. So yeah, I had one of our other former board members that was on that and he's going to hopefully get on and tell us a little bit more of the real specific details on that. But yeah, it was, it was something else. Okay. So it sounds like that any track way questions might be better left for this other individual then. Yeah, more likely. Yeah. Got it. Okay. Very good. The asset team is very interesting. And those two teams, it's been going on for, for three years. It's such an interesting idea to have an all female team like that. Has that led to any interesting interactions with that team and, you know, Bigfoot coming into the camp? Well, so nothing that's been, I would say out of the ordinary, everything out of there coming out of there is out of the ordinary. But yeah, I think there were, there were sounds heard, you know, whoops, and other vocalizations throughout the week. But it was the evening time, the nighttime when the other team was in there kind of monitoring the area and seeing if they could get something coming in. And that's when they got the bluff charge. And it got a heat signature. They could actually hear the thing breathing. I remember how far away they thought it was, but they could hear a real heavy, heavy, almost like an asthmatic breathing. And then they got something out of the thermal image. I'm sure that thermal image has been analyzed over and over again in the group. How are you able to get a feel of how tall that individual was that was on the thermal footage? No, really not. I mean, it could have been hunched down. It just depends on how close it was to sometimes with thermal imaging. You think you're looking at a black bear until a raccoon comes out or vice versa. So, but it looks like it was, anytime you have different people looking at thermal imaging, they might pick out different things. So, and I've seen that with pictures we've taken down there too, where I don't see anything in that photo and I can clearly see what I think is a leg or shoulder, but it's hard to tell. Gotcha. Have you had any, let's say any class A or visual sightings over the last five years from team members? Yes, absolutely. So the one that I was discussing, my second trip, August of 22, and it was three of us. We'd been out kind of hiking the whole valley, just being in different areas. We had settled down in an area a couple of days prior and had rocks coming out of the tree line at us. We were all kind of spread out and hidden out and kind of decided it was time to get out of there. And then a couple of days later, we went to a different area, not too far. And as we went to go look at a certain spot and instead of backtracking and just turning right around, we decided to go on a bigger loop and go around. And we almost feel like we caught this animal off guard. So as we're kind of coming up a little trail, there's three of us. I'm in the back. Another gentleman is in between us. And we're both at this time. This happened. We're looking at our feet because we're kind of going down this little steep rocky area. So we want to make sure we got a good foothold. And right as we were doing that, the guy in the front saw an upright creature kind of hunched over. Like when the way he described it, it makes me think of somebody in a movie theater when they're kind of cutting in front of everybody. They want to make sure they don't get in your way. So they hunch over and he just darted in front of the path. This episode is brought to you by Spreaker, the platform responsible for a rapidly spreading condition known as podcast brain. Symptoms include buying microphones you don't need, explaining RSS feeds to confused relatives, and saying things like, Sorry, I can't talk right now. I'm editing audio. If this sounds familiar, you're probably already a podcaster. The good news is Spreaker makes the whole process simple. You record your show, upload it once, and Spreaker distributes it everywhere people listen. Apple podcasts, Spotify, and about a dozen apps your cousin swears are the next big thing. Even better, Spreaker helps you monetize your show with ads, meaning your podcast might someday pay for, well, more microphones. Start your show today at Spreaker.com. Spreaker, because if you're going to talk to yourself for an hour, you might as well publish it. Kind of a reddish brown. He said like an Irish setter color, but it ran in a patch of sunlight so he could really see it. He's really cleaning off. Of course, he's upset that he didn't, you know, he can't get a shot off in that amount of time. We didn't see anything, so we were a little upset at that. That was a wild afternoon, just kind of decompressing after that. Even though I didn't get to see it, just talking with someone immediately afterwards. That was very interesting. I can't imagine having an encounter like that. So when you say take a shot, that could obviously mean one or two things. And so it leads into an interesting question. What would you say? I know at times in the past, NAWC has been really focused on trying to get an actual like physical specimen. But then there was a kind of a focus on maybe getting using a camera to get an actual like photograph of one instead. And what would you say the focus is at this time and period the last five years? What is the organization's focus on getting? I don't think we ever got away from trying to collect a specimen. So I think that was always out there for a lot of these members. There were like members like myself and I think other members, it's just it's a lot. It's a lot of pressure to have a firearm. You mean you're not hunting a deer, you're not hunting a bear, you're hunting something that is until you see it, apparently. It's really, it's hard to pull the trigger, I think. And so I think that's a lot of pressure for some folks. So some people just don't want to do it. So we did try to reinvigorate the camera group and we're still trying to do that. So trying to figure out best ways of doing that and where to be camera traps or that's what I carry out there besides the sight arm for safety. I carry a camera and just again, same thing as I guess with a shot, you're just hoping you're in the right spot at the right time. But yeah, I'm trying to collect a specimen that's never really gone away. But it's not a popular opinion with everybody. But when I still, when I say take a shot, I think I'm trying to figure where we were at the time. I don't think we were carrying long guns into where we were, but get a camera with them. And you know, cameras out there, it's you charge them up and sometimes you go for 20 minutes and they're dead. Like, well, now we're going to see something, you know, or just didn't have it on for whatever reason. It's, you know, but at least snap a shot had it in his hand and didn't get a chance to do it. Why do you think that is that you have? So it sounds like at least in some instances you have batteries that will go dead. And do you have any thoughts about why that might occur in that area? You know, I think a lot of it has to do with the weather. Honestly, it's very, very humid out there in the summer time. I'm not an expert at that type of technology, but you know, some of the items you use would get really hot. So I just think they're just getting overheated and with the humidity there, I think that plays a big part into it. And, you know, we've heard about the big foot curse before. You know, equipment just suddenly not working, but I just think there's some luck to that, I think. But yeah, I think part of it's weather. We've got some guys that have kind of figured some stuff out too. Hey, if I use this type of an external battery pack, it tends to last longer. So it's just a matter of getting all the right equipment and, and, and as you kind of remember it is turned all on. Make sure it's all charged. You get at the end of these long hot hikes and you're tired and sometimes people just, I will put this on today or whatever. And that's a big mistake. That's the, that's the time then you would need it. Yeah. Do you feel in the last few years that there has been an actual photograph taken of in this situation, we would be definitely, man, there's so much background information. But guys, if the NAAC stands for North American, what a conservancy, correct? Yes, correct. Okay. So that's our, that's our foundation guys. So do you feel that there has been a time where there's been a photograph taken of a wood ape in this area in the last five years that's been pretty good? Nothing I'm aware of. Like I said, there's, there's been a couple of shots where we know we've, if you're out sitting around for a couple of hours and you might keep hearing something from one area, you know, we've learned just zoom in whenever you can to start snapping a bunch of pictures because we've gone back and looked at some of like, there's a shape of something there. I can't, you can't say it's an ape, but I think one of these times you keep doing that might, might grow capture something, but nothing I'm aware of nothing that, that I believe, but you know, we probably still have who knows how many hundreds or thousands of photos to still try to peruse or with some of the camera traps we'd had set out for years. I can't imagine that. That just that I totally get it though. I mean, it's not just you guys, there's other organizations that have so much data they've taken in and they just don't have the time or the manpower to analyze it. I totally get it. It's like, yeah, no, it there's other examples out there. I know in the past and I'm talking longer than five years back, there has been times in this area where individuals have had a wood ape in their sights and they weren't able to pull the trigger because of what they saw. Do you has anything like that happened since or has there not really been a situation that's gotten close like that did back in the day? I'm trying to think if there's been anything since then and I know, yeah, there's been a couple, I think. I can't think of anything since then where you've had something in your sights and I don't know if that's, you know, it's interesting. It's time goes on and we learn about the apes. They're learning about us too. So when you first read about or hear about area X, it's just this other world, you know, just like stuff's happening all the time and it wasn't. But that's how it appeared. But I think, you know, they haven't left and we haven't left. So they've just learned to kind of get around this as much as possible. And literally that last summer we found a trackway that almost just skirts the entire camp. We found a good trackway. Let's follow it like, well, this goes from almost a perimeter of our camp all the way. It just takes them so they don't ever have to be afraid that we're going to see them. So I don't know if it's they're being more careful or we just haven't been lucky enough. Sure. Have you experienced any situations where there's been evidence of toolmaking or or structure building or anything that you might see present in other apes species as well? No, I personally have not. Other than we know we found some some net crushing stations in up there. There was there was one gentleman that was while he was on one of our teams. He was. I don't want to say bum rush, but he was a bluff charged by an animal. It was clearly it was an ape. And so he went back to see where this thing was where it was hiding and where it was watching him from and they found a stick that was perfectly balanced. On this other stick. So if he moved it one way the other was going to fall, but this thing was just sitting there perfectly balanced. I don't know how that happens naturally. Right where the ape had been. So I mean, that's probably the closest we've seen. I have never seen really any stick structures. I did talk about the track way and we found a tree. I'm trying to think how big the tree was around maybe, you know, four or five inch diameter and it was it was grabbed and just you could just see was twisted all the way around and then pushed over. So it kind of pointed in the direction whether that meant anything or not. I don't know. I think the tree was just in its way and it was just just doing it to do it like we've messed with sticks trees and stuff to I don't know, but nothing we've seen. Absolutely. So I've been out to Oregon in the Mount Hood National Forest and I've seen some some tree twists as well. And I don't know if you've ever seen pictures of things like that from the PNW. If you have, are they similar to what you're seeing then in the area X area? And like I said, we've only seen the one out in X. It was pretty low to the ground too. It wasn't real high up, probably four feet. So it wasn't a big tree. So and that's a good, you know, that's always been a good question to mine is are they doing different things in different areas? You know, maybe it's similar as far as a lot of forested areas, a lot of trees, but you know, it does seem like there's a lot more of these structures and things like that coming out of the Northwest than we would see down there. The goal is ultimately to be able to get this species identified and and then that's the comforts that the conservation piece comes in. You know, and I've never been a someone that not that I discount, you know, some of these, you know, things to our environment that have been happening, but just in the in the few years I've seen it just to drive in. It's sad. Some of the cutting of the trees and and they're not being replanted with what's being cut down. So we're really doing a disservice to the all the animals out there. But the goal is to identify the species so it can be protected, not just from hunting, but from environmental encroachment, things like that. So in some of the sub goals, that's our that's our main goal. And I know we've talked about photography and and and actually collecting. But you remember the the tag seven where we had one of the wood apes tagged, we are hoping to replicate that. So one of our goals is to with newer technology, maybe redo that, but we need boots on the ground to do that too. So if I could plug if anybody out there feels like that is something that, you know, they can, you know, devote some time to get out there and do that. We have a membership tab on our on our website to submit a application. And but that was I wasn't there for that. But the stories I heard made me tired. And that was a lot of running around and chasing for 10, 11 months or something like that. It was is crazy. So we're hoping with some newer technology and some more boots on the ground, maybe we can help do this again. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, the tag seven account is just a really interesting thing for listeners to look into. And the monograph is still up, I would imagine on your website, right? Absolutely. Do you feel like there have been any particular events within the last five years that have gotten you closer to your goal that you have as an organization? You know, I think I mean, I definitely think the asset team has been something totally unique. And there's been activity each time that they've been out. You know, it's interesting. I think just the different techniques that people have, you know, I could ghillie up and and go hide for six hours in one spot. Or I could wear my normal clothes and go sit in the middle of a field. And I might have the same chance. And we've had people do both of those and have success. They're still coming around. They're still making themselves known to us. So we just want to be able to take advantage of that. Yeah, absolutely. What do you think the closest that someone from the team has gotten to an eight in the last five years? I'd say that bluff charge we had the beginning year now behind where we camp. That was pretty, pretty intense. We got pretty close from what we could tell. We've had, well, it's hard to tell when the power knocks him in how close it feels like. It feels like that they're 50 yards from your cabin. They could be a lot further than that, but we've had some power knocks. We've had some cabin slaps. So technically, that's pretty close. But, you know, the second you rush outside, there's nothing there. So I was on a team where we had two of those at 2 30 in the morning on two different nights. And it was heard by the same people. So just different different areas of the cabin. So they're still approaching even in the camp. But I think that bluff charge, which was actually a pretty close story of LaTrine, good spot. That's about where that happened. So really close. Gotcha. Have you figured out any interesting ways to initiate? Nothing I'm aware of, nothing that I've come across. I think, like I said, it's they've really gotten used to us. Sometimes we'll sit silent for two nights in a row and not make a sound. This episode is brought to you by Spreaker, the platform responsible for a rapidly spreading condition known as podcast brain. Symptoms include buying microphones you don't need, explaining RSS feeds to confused relatives, and saying things like, Sorry, I can't talk right now. I'm editing audio. If this sounds familiar, you're probably already a podcaster. The good news is Spreaker makes the whole process simple. You record your show, upload it once, and Spreaker distributes it everywhere people listen. Apple podcasts, Spotify, and about a dozen apps your cousin swears are the next big thing. Even better, Spreaker helps you monetize your show with ads, meaning your podcast might someday pay for, well, more microphones. Start your show today at Spreaker.com. Spreaker, because if you're going to talk to yourself for an hour, you might as well publish it. And then the third night we might try a wood knocker who, and we might get a response. We might get absolutely nothing. We have found this magic formula that's going to make them do it. So, yeah, we keep looking for it and we keep trying. I mean, it's we just we keep trying things. Sometimes we'll try it in a different way if we have a way of doing that. But I've looked over the list of things before I got on there, the things they've tried and I've been pretty surprised. Just some of the things they've tried to elicit responses and some of it works, some of it doesn't. Yeah, it's some really interesting things people are trying out there. I know that a long time ago there were things put in place of what to do if there was a specimen that was actually taken. Is that the same case with the organization or is that changed? We still have a protocol in place. So if something were to happen, we've kind of got everything all laid out, what we're going to do, who's doing what, everything. Gotcha. Which I'm trying to think, and this is public. You can find it in different interviews. Was it Artemis protocol? Yeah. I think it was called that. Yeah. Yeah. These last five years, I think the, the asset team is a really good addition. You know, seeing Unity in purpose with two different teams operating at the same time, which is kind of interesting. The home team basically, the away team sneaking in at night. But I just, you know, in my vision, I almost see us, we're just, we're just keeping, keep doing what we've been doing, try to do new things, but we don't want to give up on some of the old stuff too, because stuff has worked in the past. So, like I said, I don't think it's as, as active as it was back in, you know, 2006, seven, eight, all that, because I think we were new to the Apes, but now they're used to us. But, you know, you still get these moments of, I think you catch them off guard. So, or a younger one, besides he's going to act up and talk. We've had, we've had a couple of instances of, of both speech being heard in camp early morning. So we've had a couple of instances like that. We've had a couple of other sighted just quick sightings of a gray, something big and gray going through the brush. We've had some thermal sightings from camp that looked very interesting. And you got one guy saying, it's on two feet. That's on two legs. The other guy, when he gets up close to it, not looking through thermals, I think it was a bear. I mean, just never know. When you say faux speech, are you actually, I'm just going to, can you explain what you mean by that exactly? So faux speech, obviously it's our guess. We believe it sounds like communication. It's a garbled jumbled, I've heard it called Samurai chatter. Just a low guttural string of vowels and consonants put together just sounds like grumbling. But you can hear intonation. You can almost go like that. That one was bad at that one, you know, or we've had it where they were two of them are kind of chattering back and forth. And a much louder voice kind of did one big loud, and then everyone just everything stopped. But yeah, we had one of our guys wake up in the early morning pre dawn and he heard what sound like a conversation going on behind him. Not too far from the cabin. So just, but you can't decipher words. It's just his guttural noises and sounds. If you it's, Sierra sounds from Ron Moorehead, you'll see exactly what that sounds like. It's very interesting. Okay. And I was just going to ask that actually. So you're saying it's very similar to the Sierra sound son. Yes, that's what they've been saying. They're hearing. Okay. Have you guys been able to get your own recordings of that speech? No, we've had, We'll have cameras or cameras will have audio recorders out all night. And we've, we have recorded certain things. We have recorded some of that fo speech. I think it's on our website from years ago, but nothing on the recent, Any of the recent trips in the last five years. Yeah, we've had things that we thought should get caught on recording and we wouldn't hear it. Same thing with camera. But yeah, no, I haven't had the fo speech recorded. I think in the last, at least five years, at least since I've been there, even though folks have heard it. Gotcha. Going off of the data you guys have gotten. Do you have any idea of, of how big the group of apes is in that area? If there's males, females and juveniles, or there may be multiple groups. Do you have any information about that that you've gathered? So I don't know. I'm sure at some point somebody's made a guess on that as far as the number, you know, back in our earlier days, we definitely saw there were visuals of little ones. So I mean, to be, there's definitely a breeding population out here. It was last summer, the summer before we were walking through an area, not too close to camp, but it wasn't too far from where we used to do some research. And I saw some really small, what looked like human footprints in the dirt. So if they're still breeding, yeah, it's hard to tell. I don't know how large they get if there's one alpha male and some juveniles. So I mean, we could be looking at five to 10. It's hard to tell. And you mentioned the gray individual, which that was something where they were, your organization was seeing the gray individual, I mean, years before 2022 as well, right? Correct. So I don't know if it's the same gray individual. We don't know if that's a color phase that they get to when they're older like we do. But yeah, there were two people that saw this. It looked like the hind end of a very large gray, hairy animal busting through the woods, busting through the brush. That was probably a couple years ago, two, three years ago. But yeah. Now, we've got a lot of sightings of different gray, which was, I think, all the nine feet from what some people are saying. But we've seen other gray individuals apparently out there. I think we had a sighting of two gray individuals at the same time, one year. Was that pre five years or post or after the five year mark? Pre yeah. Okay. Yeah. Gotcha. Has there been a time when let's say you have someone that's new to the organization, they come down for their first time to area X and they are just they are shook up and and it's like, I don't know if this guy is going to even return after what he experienced. Has there been anything like that that's happened in the last five years or not? Not in the last five years where it's been like that. We have had some people suddenly just decided not to go in anymore and they just they don't want to talk about it or say why we're not going to push it. So I don't know if it's something that was seen down there. We've had people go down there and and it wasn't like, you know, Mike made his book is fantastic. And they go, this wasn't like the book at all. You know, I didn't see anything this weekend. And so they were they didn't want to come back either. So kind of opposite kind of interesting. But I've been in there with a couple of folks that it was their first time and they were, you know, rightfully, I say scared, but just just cautious. And I think those first couple, couple nights, you have to let them know what certain sounds are. I had to be told that as well. Like, what is that? That's a frog. We don't have frogs like that. Where I'm from. So you have to learn the land a little bit after two, three days, they kind of settle down and and they they just fall in love with it. It's as scary as some of the nights were. They fell in love with it. So I haven't had anybody refuse to come back because they were too scared in the last five years. Gotcha. Have there been any individuals that have experienced anything like infrasound? Is that a thing that ever comes up down there? We've talked about it. I don't know if any incident that we pinpoint that as a possible explanation is what we had. It's hard to tell. Yeah, I've heard about it and we have discussed it. But nothing that we've nothing that we've been able to pinpoint that's possibly what that was. Gotcha. You know, one thing I'm a fan of and I've seen you guys have come out with with a few episodes. Is there any plans to come out with more episodes of the the podcast that is put out by the the NAWAC? Definitely. So myself and Dusty kind of decided we needed to we had a little bit more time. I don't know. I can't speak for Dusty, but we're going to at least try to get this back on the on the ground. You know, when you've got a full-time job, that's a tough gig to sometimes wrangle together. But we have we have a whole lineup of different shows we're going to do or start getting those put out here. Whether we do one a month, one every other month, I just, you know, sometimes it got backed up to where it was a couple of years. It's a lot of work. So but yes, absolutely. We are bringing the podcast back and so that is awesome. That's that's really good to hear. Always a nice surprise when you see something come out from from that feed. There's been some really good interviews that you guys have have put out. Can you talk a little bit about, let's say there's someone listening and they have, you know, they've listened to this, they've listened to other interviews, they've read the book from Michael and they're like, man, I would want to try to to get involved. Can you talk a little bit about what kind of individuals the organization is currently looking for and in the process of how one would apply for that? Sure. So, I mean, definitely it can be difficult to do in a just an application setting, but we want someone that comes on board that that knows as much as much about our organization as possible. So, you know, information. In print and podcast form. Ever. We want to know that, you know, people have read or listened or, you know, they're participating somewhere to get some knowledge because we want them to know what, in a way, what they're getting into what we're all about. And whenever you join a group, there's some assimilation process and and we have, you know, like what works for us. And so we do have times to meet meet up. But that first step is the application. And it's, you know, I know there are questions on there about law enforcement or military background and things like that. And that certainly doesn't disqualify somebody. If they don't have that, I don't have that. But we're just one of the big things is are you are you willing to come out? And that can be a difficult thing for people based on location. It's, you know, we're not all over the country. We're in one little spot in Oklahoma. But can you do it once a year? And if you're willing to put boots on the ground and willing to learn and willing to take feedback, maybe criticism. We've had a lot of top notch folks in the organization, but, you know, it's important, especially out in the middle of nowhere for a week that you're a team player, you know, how to get along with others and follow direction and things like that. So and then after, you know, after the application process, we have an associate member level ship. So they have access to, you know, certain things on the website, on the discussion boards. And we have a training camp in the spring and then we have a retreat for members and family in the fall. It's a great time to only get to know each other, but to ask questions and, you know, pick people's brain and, and just a chance for them to get to know you. And, and then that's, that's how you would make that as the, the research level where we say, okay, so now you're able to get in and come down to area X with us and help us figure this out. Yeah, I mean, that's definitely a good way to make sure that the right people are in that area and not sneaking in as it, as it were. I mean, that's, that's quite the, it's really a pretty intense vetting process, but, but a good one. So yeah, and it could be difficult to do at times because I mean, not everyone's going to be a fit even you could be passionate about the subject, but, you know, it's, we have our, our, our ideas and how we want to do things and some people get in there and even after a year or so they're like, it's not exactly what I thought and they just go their own way, you know, and we're still friends and whatever, but it's, it's, yeah, it's amazing how many people like, oh, that sounds cool. I'm just going to submit my name and they're just going to bring me right on board. It's like, so what if you, what do you know about us? Nothing. I heard you on such and such podcast. Well, do a little research, read up on us, make sure you're aligned with what we're doing and, and yeah, submit your application. The initial time of being in camp and having a rock throw in etch is interesting, but it was that next, what two months later when the deciding occurred. That was one of the busiest weeks. I was busy just it was so much was happening. This episode is brought to you by Spreaker, the platform responsible for a rapidly spreading condition known as podcast brain. Symptoms include buying microphones you don't need, explaining RSS feeds to confused relatives and saying things like, sorry, I can't talk right now. I'm editing audio. If this sounds familiar, you're probably already a podcaster. The good news is Spreaker makes the whole process simple. You record your show, upload it once and Spreaker distributes it everywhere people listen. Apple podcasts, Spotify and about a dozen apps your cousin swears are the next big thing. Even better, Spreaker helps you monetize your show with ads, meaning your podcast might someday pay for, well, more microphones. Start your show today at Spreaker.com. Spreaker, because if you're going to talk to yourself for an hour, you might as well publish it. They cut to the point we'd be singing camp and rocks just be landing in camp and it just you didn't even look anymore. It was to the point where like, I mean, I don't know who's doing it back there with these rocks are just they keep coming in and we're laughing about it. But a valuable lesson that I learned was, and I've been told this from other group members, you know, not everything out there is big foot, right? So you still have to look with a, you know, an objective lens through everything and everything. And we had just gotten back from the outing where we had the sighting. And right after that, we had two bears come into camp, which I'm not fond of bears either. So that was a great afternoon for me. Got rid of the bears. And then we started hearing this little knock like a little almost sound like a rock on rock, which is the light tapping. And so one of the guys decided to mimic it and it kept going. And back and we do one, they do one, we do two, they do two. And our eyes about popped out of our head. So I took over the tapping while our friend decided to get the scope out and look up. It was up on the hill behind the cabin. And finally he, he motions to me to follow my look and just look up into that tree and there's a woodpecker. I'm making the noises. So I wanted him dead because I was thinking I was communicating with, you know, some eight, but I realized perfect example, perfect humbling experience of not even out here that you can, you know, sounds weird or odd is bigfoot. It's the, you know, the rocks coming into camp. I'm like, I'm trying to figure that out because we are near a hill, but no, these things are landing. They're not rolling. They're landing. And I don't know what's doing that. And we have that metal hooch you've probably heard about too, where it's kind of a pull through carport. And when, you know, stuff hits that we just have to check it because you can sit there and go, that was a rock. And then you look up there and I, unless it bounced off, that's why we keep the whole area clean around it. You sweep the roof. It's pickery nuts. But everyone's smiling. You get rocks that are coming out there. So the cabin slap though for me, I think was probably the weirdest. It was 2 30 in the morning laying on the bottom bunk and just something right behind me right where my backside was just smack the cabin. And I looked at my, you know, the guy on the other bottom cabin and I don't know what that was. So we sat and we listened. We didn't hear any other noises. And two nights later, the exact same time on the other wall, the opposite wall smack happened. So I've never experienced anything like that. That was, that was interesting. After that one, we kind of busted out. See what could we see? Grab the thermals, grab the white lights. I didn't see anything, but that was definitely an interesting night. And that was right after we'd had a power knock, I think, earlier that day. So what started as a pretty quiet weekend of the pretty busy. That was July of 23. I've heard about the cabin slaps and I've heard of other, you know, other strange loud noises. Now the first that week when we had the two of us, the three of us there, we had the sighting. They had some pretty good hearing. I had to really learn to adjust my city hearing to the woods. But at one night there was besides a howl off of it, it's since they heard a loud, it said it sounded like a Volkswagen dropped from a cliff, just this loud crash. And we searched all the next day to kind of figure out if we could find what possibly that could have been, but we never came up with anything. The other odd thing that started that week off. So the gentleman that had the sighting, he had been there week four, so he was there two weeks in a row. And so when we finally pulled into camp, it said, Hey, just to let you know, the last two teams that have come in here within 30 minutes, there's been a tree knocked over in that field over there. All right, so we just sat under the hooch and just relax for a little bit and 32 minutes after arriving, the tree got pushed over. And the one of the gentlemen was with us. He's really good at pinpointing where sounds are coming from. So that's about 300 yards that way. So we looked and we found a pushed over tree, looked pretty fresh. What we found also in that area is in the on the ash trees only up about seven, six, seven feet, eight feet, maybe somewhere that were marks on the tree where it had been hit. So we're wondering if maybe that's where the knocks because they do have a different sound on the ash trees than they did on some of the other ones. So and it was facing our camp. So you could knock the tree and look right at us and I got to see what we were doing. But that was an interesting week. I learned a lot of interesting things, learn not to sit back and, you know, anything could happen at any time. I think this came out of that week for me. Oh, yeah. Are you guys, do you have audio rolling right when you arrive in the area? So we, that's one thing we need to invest in is just to have team, you know, everyone has individual recordings and some are really, really good about having that out constantly. And otherwise, some of us will just do it at night over overnight. But yeah, I think that's something we need to have running constantly. Oh, yeah. I mean, you could, because you could have something like, I mean, I'm sure there's times when people are in area X. And I mean, you could have something like a wildlife acoustics type recorders for the times that you're not there. But just like long term duration, recorders. Yeah. Yeah. And then we get, you know, and I know you can look at that visually to see what you found. But then you get to find somebody that's going to sit down and do all that too. So, but I agree. And I think that's where we've gotten, you know, some of our audio as well, just having it out there. Yeah. Absolutely. This question might be one of them where it's better for the individuals going to talk more about the track way. But you did mention that there has been hair found at certain times. Is there any anything going on where that hair is being analyzed or DNA tested or anything like that? Not that I'm aware of at the moment. It's being preserved until we can figure out. There's different thoughts on that too, but we need to find the right place to do that. You know, some places you send stuff off and it's like, oh, it's not a, you know, I don't want to know what it isn't. Of course, you can't really tell me what it is, I guess. But sometimes we've gotten some odd, in the past, we've got some odd responses with blood that we've had tested. So at this point, I think we're hanging on to it till we can determine exactly where we want to send that. But I don't believe it's because that could be wrong. Yeah, I get it. Especially when you have evidence like that, you just don't want to have it disappear on you. And I know there's a pretty good, as a gentleman, I've talked to you from North Carolina. He's got a pretty good DNA study going on right now. His name is Darby Orcutt. But that's very interesting. It'll be cool to hear, you know, maybe in the future, if you guys are able to analyze those somehow or even has anyone taken like a high-powered microscope to them to see if they can see like the medulla of the hair at all? I don't know if they have. That's a great question. Yeah, that would be another really good thing to look at. Yeah, absolutely. Wow, it is great to hear that things are still progressing at this area in southeast Oklahoma where, you know, it's not known where the exact area is, but it is somewhere down there in southeast Oklahoma in an extremely active area. And it's been, I mean, the organization has been there. Is it 20 plus years now? Yeah. Yeah, it's wild. It is absolutely wild to think about. It's probably the longest, that's probably the longest duration that an organization has focused on one area for Bigfoot, I would imagine. I would think so. And this is where I tend to feel that inadequacy where, you know, I've been in the organization for five, six years, and the giants that have come before us, you know, that did all this legwork and spent the time in the field. It's like, you know, they've done tons that we're just so thankful for. So, but, you know, we got to have, he said, boots on the ground and my boots are willing to get out there. So I've learned to love going out there. I actually had a great fear of traveling by myself. I didn't like it. I had a lot of anxiety. And now I can't count how many trips I've made to Oklahoma, just between research and training camps and getting together. So I absolutely love it. It's my second home. Very cool. Well, it has been a privilege to have you on the show and talking about NAWAC. Are there any, I want to make sure that you were able to share everything that you had come to the show to share today, just to not cut you off? No, no, no. I had a little list of ongoing operations. Oh, I guess one of the other things that we have asked, and we, it's, well, because we haven't had a podcast, really don't get a chance to advertise it, but for people to have had encounters, kind of like how you heard about getting in touch with us, we've had people outreach us in the past that maybe asked for help or asked us to look. We have a member in that area, because we do have members all over the country. If there's anything we can do to help out, we can. So we do ask that people submit encounter reports. We do keep our own list of encounter reports that we go through. Not saying it's very often that we're going to be able to respond if somebody feels like they need help or something. Usually they just want to let us know, hey, I saw this. This is what happened. But pretty much all over the country, we get reports. So we encourage people to continue to do that as well. That's awesome. Whatape.org, correct? Yes. Yeah. So it's a great website. If you want to hear some of the best collected, bigfoot related audio, go to that website. There's also really intense papers to read about prior research. And then it's a really good database of a citing reports that you can read through too. So definitely worth checking out. And that's also where you would look into if you're wanting to try to apply for the organization. That's where you could do that as well. Absolutely. Rick, thank you so much for coming on the show. It's been great getting an update from the NAWAC. Hopefully I'll be able to maybe talk to some other individuals in the future. But thank you so much for coming on the show today. Appreciate it. Thank you so much for having us. Appreciate it. Have you ever heard all the accounts of bigfoot activity around Oak Ridge, Oregon, and you think to yourself, man, I would love to get out in those woods and experience it for myself. Well, guess what? This year you can. If this is interesting to you, stay tuned because it's pretty cool. Sasquatch Summer Fest is coming up July 10th through the 11th, 2026. It's going to be even better than the previous year's. Reason number one, I'll be one of the speakers. It's going to be wild. I'll probably, I'll say this. There may be stuff you haven't heard anywhere else because let's just say sometimes it's, it's, well, you just got to be there. We'll leave it at that. More about looking for bigfoot in the Oak Ridge woods. Now check this out. You may know Jason Kenzie from his documentary series, Searching for Sasquatch. Well, this year you can not only go to the festival, but you can also sign up for a track deep in the wild forest outside of Oak Ridge with Jason Kenzie to the big foot spots to look for big foot. There's only eight spots to sign up for this. And yes, this will also be filmed for the next chapter in his documentary series, which is searching for Sasquatch. This is a once in a lifetime deal. It's just, trust me, it's going to be a wild, wild experience. To get a ticket head on over to Sasquatchsummerfest.com and listeners can use the code BSP, like Bigfoot Society podcast in order to get a two day pass for the price of a one day pass. So thanks to Priscilla for giving me that code so that you guys can, can get a little, a little help with the cost there. Appreciate that Priscilla. I hope to see you at the booth in Oak Ridge this year. We can talk about your encounter. I was able to talk to so many people last year and the year before. It is an incredible time. You're not going to want to miss it and I'll see you there. Before we wrap this episode, I want to say something directly to a very specific group of listeners. If you're in the military, any branch or forces, and if you've seen something that no one can explain, or if you're a national park ranger or forestry worker who's been told to stay quiet, or if you're a pilot who's seen something strange down on the ground, or if you're with the FBI, a federal agency or working intelligence and you stumbled upon something you're not allowed to talk about, and if you're a firefighter, paramedic or search and rescue responder who's heard screams or found tracks that didn't make sense, if you're in the logging industry on a remote oil field or a trucker with government contracts and you've had something happen that you've never told a soul, and if you're a biologist, a wildlife specialist, or a field researcher under contract who has found evidence you're not allowed to report, if you're a pastor, a missionary, or someone on a spiritual retreat and you saw something that shook your faith, or if you work in the shadows, CIA, NSA, or anything with clearance and you've seen what the public hasn't, then I want to talk to you. Even if it's anonymous, you can reach me at BigfootSociety at gmail.com. The world needs to hear what you've been forced to carry alone, and you're not alone. You've got the story, we've got the mic. See you in the woods. And remember, if you or someone you know has had a Bigfoot sighting, please, I'd love to hear from you, so email me at BigfootSociety at gmail.com, and let's start the conversation. If you haven't gotten a chance yet, check out our membership community over at www.BigfootSocietyPodcast.com, and that's where you can hear tomorrow's episode today early and ad-free, and members-only episodes every week. Also, it's a place to connect with other people that are into the Bigfoot subject as much as you are. Thanks again for following along with the Bigfoot Society. Until next time, keep your eyes open, trust your gut, and never stop asking what else might be out there and see you in the woods. If this sounds familiar, you're probably already a podcaster. The good news is, Spreaker makes the whole process simple. You record your show, upload it once, and Spreaker distributes it everywhere people listen. Apple podcasts, Spotify, and about a dozen apps your cousin swears are the next big thing. Even better, Spreaker helps you monetize your show with ads, meaning your podcast might someday pay for, well, more microphones. Start your show today at Spreaker.com. Spreaker is a great platform for you to be able to get to the next big hit of the day. Spreaker is a great platform for you to be able to get to the next big hit of the day. Spreaker is a great platform for you to be able to get to the next big hit of the day. Spreaker is a great platform for you to be able to get to the next big hit of the day. Spreaker is a great platform for you to be able to get to the next big hit of the day. Spreaker is a great platform for you to be able to get to the next big hit of the day. 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