It's the Locked On Podcast Network, your team every day. trash talk chat. You also get an ad-free version of your favorite locked on show and a whole lot more. You can check it out by tapping the everyday or club link in the show notes. Brian Utikinst is not going to change the way that he drafts for a new defensive staff, but it could change the priorities, which means this draft could look a little weird. You are locked on Packers, your daily Green Bay Packers podcast, part of the Locked On Podcast Network, your team every day. You are locked on Packers, part of the Locked On Podcast Network, your team every day. I'm Peter Bukowski and I cover the Packers for The Leap, a newsletter I would love for you to subscribe to. Subscribe to the podcast wherever you get podcasts, iTunes, Spotify, Google Podcasts, wherever you find podcasts, you'll find Locked On Packers. the number one Packers podcast on the internet and the show for fans who know what happened. They want to know why and how, thanks to everyone who makes Locked On Packers their first listen every day. We hope you like starting your day with us as much as we like starting our day with you here on the Locked On Podcast Network, the number one sports podcast network. I want to talk about potential reunions with former Packers. I want to talk about the tight end position, which everyone I think has overlooked for reasons that I'm not quite sure about. But I want to start with the draft. Because I wrote last week for The Leap, a newsletter I would love for you to subscribe to, about how Brian Gutekind does not change his preferences when it comes to players based on the coaches, based on the scheme. they drafted and signed the same edge rushers when it was Mike Patton, when it was Jeff Halfley and when it was Joe Barry. And that's three distinctly different schemes. Brian Gutekinds believes in the models that they have and I think for the most part that makes sense. But the way that the league has changed and the amount that Bobby Babich's bills and Jonathan Gannon's Cardinals played smaller personnel groupings, more dime, more big dime, more big nickel, more of these hybrid back-end personnel groupings, the more you look at this roster and you go, okay, do they have the right people to do those things? To me, this starts with Edron Cooper. That's weird, right? He doesn't play safety. He doesn't play corner. No. but can he play Mike linebacker? Can he be the green dot for you? Can he be that type of player for you? Do you even want him doing that? Do you want him playing that way? That's, to me, one of the first questions this team has to figure out as they move forward. Because if you like him as your Will linebacker and you like having him do the things that he does now, well then finding a true Mike is part of the deal here and it affects the way that you're gonna you're gonna scheme up those dime packages if you're only gonna have one linebacker on the field in dime who's it gonna be personally I would like it to be Edrin Cooper but generally speaking he's got to be the Mike linebacker if that's what's gonna happen so if you want him to be on the field for 100% of snaps and you're going to play more of these light personnel groupings, you kind of need him to be able to do that at the very least in those high defensive back looks. So that's where this starts to me is can he be like Devondre Campbell in 2021? Whether he's the Mike or the Will or the Sam or the Joker or the Moneybacker, whatever name you want to ascribe to it. Can he be the one linebacker you play when you're in dime? Something Joe Barry did a bunch and something Devondre Campbell thrived at doing for one season. That's where this has to start. Off of that. So let's say the answer is no. Well, then you need to go find somebody. And for my money, you need to go sign somebody. I have advocated for Demario Davis in the past. I will re-up that advocation here. If you think he can do it, I personally think he can do it, then what does that mean for the way that you look at your personnel and the way that you look at the draft personnel? Because linebackers in the college game are generally smaller than the linebackers in the NFL game because they prioritize speed, they prioritize being able to cover ground because of the way the hashes are, because of the way the offenses are built. You have to have linebackers who run. You normally think of linebackers run and hit linebackers. That's not quite, it's like run and get guys to the ground linebackers and run and cover linebackers. That's really what you need in the modern game. It's still nice to have some guys who can come downhill, fit the run and do the things that you have to do in any level of football. but what are you getting then from that other set of linebackers those other not even linebackers overhang defenders if you're playing an extra safety what can they bring you? I think that the nickel personnel for this Packers team with Evan Williams Xavier McKinney and Javon Bullard that's about as good as a 1-2-3 nickel grouping as you have in the NFL but then if you're in dime do you have the right hybrid piece? I like what we've seen from Keaton Oladopo when he's been given the opportunity to play, but we're talking about someone who has never really had to have that sort of role in this defense. And look, he was part of the 2024 draft class. So if he's not that, is he really a long-term fixture on this football team? I think that's a really interesting question to ask. He's going to be going into his third NFL season. And so if he can't be that guy for you, then he's going into the last year of his deal next year. Like two years into a career, you're already halfway through your rookie deal. So the Packers have to figure out quick, fast, and in a hurry what he is. And if you're Jonathan Gannon, if you're Bobby Babich, if you're Brian Gutekinds, unfortunately, you're going to have to make those sorts of declarations now because you're going into a free agent period where you could sign guys, where you could draft guys. And you're thinking about a year, two years, three years down the road. You have to be. That's the way that team building works. And no one is more forward thinking in the draft than the Packers are thinking a year, two years down the road. Much to the chagrin of Packer fans a lot of times. One of the reasons I brought this up was there was a player who came up. It doesn't even matter who the player is. And I was like, yes, take a shot on a player like that. And it was an undersized linebacker, you know, a guy who's like 6'1", 225, but is going to run like the wind. And this is where the Packers not changing their model works in their favor Remember once upon a time the Packers used a day two pick on Josh Jones And he had, you know, he looked the part. He was the prototypical dime linebacker, strong safety type in the NFL. He was drafted to be, you know, essentially Nicky Manwari. Now, for a slew of reasons, that didn't work out. but they used a premium draft pick on a secondary player. And I don't mean plays in the secondary. I mean a secondary player. Like his role on that defense at that time was to be a dime linebacker who played like 20% of snaps, 25% of snaps, and then could eventually grow into a role as a starting safety, which eventually he did and will always have the Bengals game when he looked like he was the second coming of Leroy Butler. Turns out he wasn't. But that's a great example of a player who fit all of the boxes, checked all the, they want the premium athletes early in the draft. And they're not afraid to take somebody who in year one is just going to be that type of dude. Now, what if it's just a linebacker? Well, in college, linebackers have to be able to play in the slot. they have to be able to not quite play safety but almost at times given the drops and the widths of the field and i know the field is technically the same width but because of the way the hashes are you have to be able to cover a bunch of ground the packers have to look at that and go okay could that just be basically a de facto linebacker could you play nickel could you play big dime with that player yeah we'll call him a linebacker but they're really more like a safety in a situation like that. Or at least you want them to be with the versatility that they can bring and all of those things. So all of this is to say, I don't think it's going to change the Packers' size preferences or athleticism preferences. But it may make them say, hey, if this defense is going to be a heavy dime defense, drafting a dime linebacker who is a bit of an undersized player, maybe that is worth it on day two, for example, though the player in question that we were talking about was a day three linebacker but there too can you just take a shot on a freak athlete raw linebacker who hey maybe he's just going to play in dime early on going to be a special teams player for you and then hopefully can grow as he gets a little bit older a little bit stronger maybe puts on five pounds maybe puts on eight pounds and all of a sudden instead of being 222 he's 230 well that's not small really anymore 220 is an undersized linebacker by the time you get to 230 you know the gradations there are smaller than you realize and sure you'd like to be 235 240 in a perfect world you'd be you know 6'4 250 can run can cover can do all those things they're just like those guys they don't really exist it's like Bobby Wagner in his prime and the rest of the league does not have a guy like that anymore Fred Warner Adrian Cooper kind of kind of in that mix I don't think he's quite in that in that size range but so they could they could take a player like that early and it changes the way you prioritize a position like that because of the way the defense is going to play even if Brian Butikins isn't actually changing anything about the way that he evaluates the players. It may change the way you prioritize them. Now, speaking of prioritizing players, I don't think we are talking enough about the Packers' need to find another tight end. Talk about why next. Welcome to the 5-Hour Energy Flavor Draft with 18 different flavors to choose from, including new options like Confetti Craze, Fruity Rainbow, or Cotton Candy. There's something for everyone the board is set the flavors are ready and i've got the number one pick for the five hour energy draft i like an old standby cherry grape berry those are the classics but i've said over and over i love the tropical flavors in all of these hawaiian breeze passion fruit orange guava sweet yet smooth love that one peach mango tropical burst that's where i gravitate toward because if I'm taking five-hour energy, it's because I want to feel better. I want to feel that energy. I want to feel that juice. And just there's something that happens in my brain when I get that feeling of being on a beach, feeling warm, especially this time of year. I want to feel warm. I want to think about being warm. Yeah, that's great. And a tropical flavor is going to do that for me. That's just me personally. You find your flavor of five-hour energy shots available at fivehourenergy.com or Amazon. The offseason doesn't exist for the everyday or club. Join the group chat. Locked on Packers. Add free when you become an everyday or go to lockedonpackers.supercast.com to learn more or click on the link in the show notes. Okay, so something happened last year. The Packers lost Tucker Craft and they didn't really know what to do after that because what and I don't I don't even mean that as a criticism of Matt LaFleur it was more about they were trying and searching to find combinations of these guys and Josh Wiley in and out of the lineup Luke Musgrave is a limited blocker so there's only so much you can do with him and so you you have a personnel problem because Tucker Kraft just solved all of your personnel problems by being able to do everything. And when you have Tucker Kraft, then it makes it easier to deploy Luke Musgrave kind of however you want. John Fitzpatrick goes down. He was someone who was already eating into the snap share of Luke Musgrave. The problem is Fitzpatrick is just not a good enough blocker to account for the deficiencies that he has as a vertical receiver. So you get that from Luke Musgrave, but you don't get the blocking so you're kind of getting the worst of all worlds in that case there's also a special teams element here your tight ends have to be core special teams players for you and luke musgrave your backup tight end like your tight end too has got to be a true blue special teamer for you and luke musgrave is just not and so this packers team they need an infusion of talent behind Tucker Kraft that's not just talent, but is size, is athletic ability. They need someone who is either an awesome receiving tight end, and Luke Musgrave is not that, someone who is, you know, in the mold of a player like an Evan Ingram, where like they're basically a receiver. Because then at least you get that piece. Or is a kick-ass blocker. and I think for me Luke Musgrave might just be what he is at this point going into the last year of his contract I just I kind of think this is it for Luke Musgrave this is his chance essentially this year to audition to be someone else's tight end one or to have a shot to be someone else's tight end one in the future I just think this is it I think he's shown what he is and unfortunately he's just not as good a player as Tucker Craft is he got an opportunity he had some nice plays had some nice moments. But if that's Tucker Craft in the playoff game and Jordan Love throws the go ball up the sideline in the playoff game to Tucker Craft, I think he either comes down with it or gets the interference call. Luke Musgrave mistracked it, mistimed it, missed everythinged it. And the ball, like Tremaine Evans doesn't know where the ball is either. So it's just like two freak athletes, size speed athletes, Tremaine Evans getting cut in Chicago Like that just not you can have it in that moment be what you doing And so one of the reasons I bringing it up this week is yes, there's questions about the special teams and no, we still don't have an answer on what's going on with the special teams. But the combine is important because there are certain traits that directly translate and correlate to success in the NFL. Oddly, hand size, one of them. short shuttle one of them but the two things that are really important is how many missed tackles did you force in college Tucker Craft was really good at that and your 10 yard split which is really a metric of explosiveness how straight line explosive are you and part of that is you got to be able to move bodies in the run game George Kittle extremely explosive short area quickness when you have that short area burst you also are getting off the line right you're able to get out of that three-point stance and get down the field part of the problem for a lot of slower tight ends is the quarterback he's it's quick game right and so if you're in the gun it's like one step bang well if you're still getting to your your landmark you're not really in the progression for the quarterback you haven't really giving the quarterback an opportunity to see you. So to me, the Packers have two ways they can go with this. It's not out of the question. If one of these tight ends, and this is a very good group of tight ends, even if at the top there's not the super premium guys, Packers don't care about that. They don't have a first round pick anyway. In the middle tiers from like rounds two through six, there's a lot of really good football players, a lot of really talented football players and I expect the Packers to use I would look if they if they used a third round pick on a tight end it would not surprise me Matt LaFleur wanted to play more 13 and 12 personnel last year they thought that could be a superpower for them use Tucker Craft and Luke Musgrave on the field together live with the fact that Luke Musgrave is not a great blocker because Tucker Craft is a good blocker and he's so good in the passing game and Luke Musgrave can can be a threat a vertical threat whether it's on a corner, those big overs, seam routes, wheel routes. You just, you lose so much when you lose craft. Well, they need more craft insurance. Because tight ends do get banged up. Look at the best tight ends in the league. Like George Kittle is always hurt. He's playing, but he's always hurt. It's really nice the 49ers found out to have someone like Jake Tonjes. Someone else who can come in and just kind of do all the things. He can be a facsimile of George Kittle, even if, of course, he's not as good as George Kittle. Having depth there not only improves your offense, gives you more flexibility with what you can be, run game, pass game, but then you're also adding another player who can be a core special teamer for you. And again, you take a guy, I think to me, those of you new to the program, those of you who don't remember my stance on drafting tight ends, my thing is I would draft a tight end in the fourth or fifth round every year every year you know barring you just falling in love with someone and they're there like you get a chance to draft Romeo Dobbs you get a chance to draft Zach Tom and it's like okay those guys are going around or two or in the case of Zach Tom I thought he was a borderline first round player by the way I was right about that you have an opportunity to hit eventually like those guys when you are prioritizing the right things, athleticism, the 10-yard split, and the run-after-catch ability. Tucker Craft leads the league since he's been in the league, basically, since he's been a starter the last two years in yards after catch for a tight end. He was really good at it in college. Take those guys, and if they can't be and develop into good offensive players for you, you at least have potential core special teamers for you. You bulk them up and you teach them how to block, or you try. Some guys are just not cut out for that. Some guys are just not good at it. Some guys are not coordinated enough. Some guys don't have the build for it, even if they add weight and add strength, like the way your body is. Sometimes guys are, you know, they're top heavy, for example. That makes them easier to move. High cut tight ends, like Luke Musgrave, by the way. Like you're just, I think, you know, you'd like to have a guy who's going to have a lot of lower body strength and can play with good leverage. A lot of times for high cut guys, that's just tough. It's tough to get low and be able to direct that ground force the way that it needs to go. So I would just be taking guys round four, round five, round six every year until I find George Kittle. And if not, I have a nice backup tight end who can play special teams for me. And every two or three years, the guys that don't work cycle out and that's fine. But eventually I'm going to hit on somebody. and they're going to be really valuable because really good tight ends are really valuable. We saw the value of Tucker Craft. So we'll see what the Packers do, but I would think first four rounds, first five rounds, don't be surprised if there's a tight end in there at all, and don't be surprised if they go into free agency and they grab a defensive tackle they feel good about, they grab a linebacker they feel good about, or they grab a cornerback that they feel good about, or they grab two of those three or three of those three, they go in and use a premium pick on a tight end. I would not be surprised at all, at all. Now, what I would be surprised about is if some aging former Packers came back to Green Bay. This is something that's been out there and it's not gonna happen, sorry. 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Just go to indeed.com slash podcast right now and support our show by saying, you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash podcast terms and conditions apply, need to hire. This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. The Packers could use some help at running back, some depth, a secondary guy, reliable guy. and the expectation is Aaron Jones will be available and will be available for cheap. I feel obligated to remind you that when the Packers said explicitly they wanted to keep Aaron Jones they said we going to try and figure it out We like to keep him He coming back Brian Goodkins was pretty definitive about it They offered him a very meager deal. Almost no guaranteed money. And he signed with Minnesota with the quickness. Like immediately signed in Minnesota. who was offering essentially the same total amount, but with more guaranteed money. I have to assume that that was done at least in part, despite the Packers, to say, oh, you're going to offer me this nonsense? I'm going to go sign with a division rival, and we'll see who's laughing in the end. Now, the Packers clearly made the right choice. Josh Jacobs has been the significantly better player since that transaction was made. I just can't see Aaron Jones wanting to come back after that. It's just, he was the consummate Packer. He was a beloved guy in the locker room. I can certainly see Matt LaFleur welcoming him back. I can even see the Packers thinking, hey, you know, I've seen worse ideas now. Age curve of running backs and all those things. It would be genuinely surprising if they brought in a player like with the profile of Aaron Jones, someone who is clearly on the downside of their career at this point. I can't see Aaron Jones wanting to do it. Just given, I think that bridge is burned. In a way that it might not be for some other players. Like, they kind of stiffed him with the money. Acted like, oh, Aaron, you're part of our core. You're our dude. We love you. We love you. We love you. Here's $4. We found it in the cushions of the couch over at 1265. Is that enough? No, of course it wasn't enough. So I see that as wildly unlikely. I would say less likely, less unlikely, but still overall unlikely. Did I find a decent way to make that point? I don't know. I don't know. I think that this is also not going to happen, but I feel less strongly about it not happening. and that is Kenny Clark because the Packers, of course, need a defensive tackle. They need someone who can play the nose and if the Cowboys move on and I think right now that after trading for Quinn and Williams, that seems like the expectation. They've got people to pay and Kenny Clark is going to be on a $21.5 million cap hit in 2026. He's got a big roster bonus, which means he can't be on the roster. so my assumption is that he will not be back now the question is like what does that mean um will they try and trade him i don't think that's a crazy thought and then what is his market value he's still only 31 years old so he's younger than some of the defensive tackles that could be out there that the packers would uh like to like to sign like the Cowboys saved 21 and a half million dollars by moving on from him and it costs them nothing not a cent in dead cap it just seems like the obvious choice now they could renegotiate the contract they could you know they could do a lot of different things I just kind of assume they're going to move on if he were amicable and willing to come back like honestly I don't hate the idea I think he understands it's a business. And, you know, you've got a situation where that position now at nose tackle is more important, I think, in this defense than it was in the previous defense because you're going to be playing with more lighter bodies and you're going to need someone in there eating up blocks. Now, what we saw later in his career in Green Bay for Kenny Clark was someone who played more three technique, And I wonder if that was done with Kenny's health in mind, with Kenny Clark's input saying, hey, my body is not going to be able to do this forever. Can you give me a little bit of a break here? Like if you want me to rush the passer, if you want me to penetrate and you want me to create some havoc, like I can't be playing nose tackle for 30 snaps a game. So it would also have to come down to what Kenny Clark wants. If he wants to come back to Green Bay and chase a title and the Packers end up with Micah Parsons and Kenny Clark, that would certainly be the funniest outcome for Jerry Jones. Not funny really for Jerry Jones, but in terms of the schadenfreude of Jerry Jones being pissed that they trade for Kenny Clark in this Micah Parsons deal, then move on from him. I could also see Jerry Jones signing him to a contract just to spite everyone like, see, we got our picks and this guy, and we're going to extend him, even though that that would be a wild thing to do. Again, what is he going to cost? The current projections have some of these nose tackles that are slated to be out there. Guys like DJ Reader. I think I would rather straight up have DJ Reader. I think at this point in their respective careers, for what the Packers need, DJ Reader at $4 or $5 million a year. And I think Kenny could get more than that. I think he could get, he's not going to get 20. But would a team give him 8, 9, 10? I think they would, honestly. If a team was willing to trade Micah Parsons for him as the centerpiece of the deal, I understand two first round picks in there too, but like they really wanted Kenny Clark. Then, you know, maybe, maybe there's value out there that we don't know about. I think, I think ultimately he prices himself out of the green Bay market. And I think the Packers would like to get younger there. This is a very good draft for nose tackles, but it would be nice to have someone like DJ Reader to have some backup plan. have someone you know can go in there and play those snaps and then you have a developmental guy that becomes your long-term answer there someone that you can pair with Micah Parsons long-term a mercenary to start and then you get the rookie up to speed just something that makes sense to me back tomorrow as we move through the combine looking at the cornerback position the defensive tackle I want to watch some of these defensive tackles that's something that I'm going to spend a lot of today doing I want to get through some of these guys I heard Tom McShay say Lee Hunter, who's someone I have not, I thought was going to make it to the Packers potentially in the fifties say that he thinks Lee Hunter could be the top interior defensive lineman in this draft. And there's like multiple that I've seen go in the top 20. That seems wild to me, but if that's the case, then maybe I don't have to, maybe I don't have to watch. No, I'm going to watch all the defensive tackles at the top of this draft just to get a feel for all of them. So thanks for tuning in today to locked on Packers. Make sure to subscribe, to follow YouTube. We have our squad show tonight. I will be on it live. We're still trying to figure out a time. I'll tweet that out. I'll blue sky that out. I'll send it out at all the places. If you never miss an episode, the Everyday Air Club is built for you. Get Locked on Packers ad-free plus members only Discord access. Ooh, careful. Discord access and more. Head to lockedonpackers.supercast.com. Luckily, this happened 30 minutes into the episode. For those of you on video, we send you to the first ever 24-7 national NFL YouTube channel. On audio, make your second listen, Locked On NFL Draft, and always stay Locked On Packers. Meet the energy shot that tastes just like birthday cake. 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