SGA vs. Wemby, Back-to-Back MVPs, Knicks–Cavs & the Flawed Pistons w/ Brendan Haywood, Plus Hornets Coach Charles Lee

Hey, we're still a listeners. You can find every episode on Apple podcast and Spotify. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon music. Hello, I'm here with Josie Marino and Snickers for football's rapid fire on or off your game. Right, Josie, you've got one or two opinions on football, so I want you to tell me whether the following is on or off its game. First up, the AR. Hostigan. Half and half scarves. Hostigan. What about backflip celebrations? Host. Cutting holes in the back of your socks. Off off off the game. What I hate, even the ones without golfs, they do the holes. Snickers, you are off your game when you are hungry. The Ryan Marcillo show is presented by DraftKings. Today, a lot of hoops. I'm going to pick the Western Conference finals, the Eastern Conference finals. I'm going to do what the Brendan Haywood was going to tell us some awesome stories from his 2011 championship run with the Dallas Mavericks against LeBron. And we have a fun exercise, picking all of the players from OKC and San Antonio's roster. And how would you pick the top 16 if you combine the two? Not future value players right now for this series. I can't wait for this series. I also have some tidying up on Cleveland's advancing through Detroit and how disappointing game seven was for the Pistons. We've got that. And how about Charles Lee, the head coach of the Charlotte Hornets, thoughts on them taking a step forward and some roster questions I have. We've got an alliance and we've got life advice. The NBA playoffs are in full swing and the intensity isn't letting up. Every night delivers high stakes drama. Clutch performance is an unforgettable moment you'll be talking about for years. And with DraftKings Sportsbook, an official sports winning partner of the NBA, your winnings get a boost every single day, all playoffs long. 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One profit boost per customer per day. NBA playoffs bets only. Bet restrictions apply and very when offered. Max bet and boost vary. Boost only applies to winnings and expires at the end of the last NBA game each day. See terms at sportsbook.draftkings.com slash promos. Bunch of things that I want to get to here. I don't have a ton of time on last night's win by Cleveland. Moving on to the Eastern Conference finals, it just wasn't that great of a game. A couple things that I want to point out. If the bigs are going to play like this for Cleveland, and you can expect to just pencil them in for what was the combined line here. 44, 9, and 7. 15 to 24 from the floor for Mobley and Jared Allen. That's with 11 miss free throws. There was one point where I was looking at the game in the second quarter and Detroit's like stuck up 35. You're like, are they going to get 40 in the first half? They did. But you're like, all right, Cleveland got off to what an 0 for 6 start from 3 and then Sam Merrill comes in. For a good stretch, he was the games leading scorer. The bigs are dominating during again. The free throw disparity was a thing. But there's some free throw stuff that I would look at here. In game five, I didn't like the way the game was called for Detroit. I thought if you were a Pistons fan, you probably had some legitimate beefs from that one. Even though Cleveland took 44 free throw attempts in game seven, I don't think you have or should have any issue with the officiating whatsoever. Because I think Detroit, if they're going to survive these games or if they were going to move on, they're going to have to have great defense. And they didn't have great defense. And they just had a ton of stupid fouls from this team. So bat on D, 31 personal fouls on the team. I mentioned the officiating thing already. It was just all these factors, offensive rebounds too, for a stretch there. There was even a play later in the third quarter where they were lining up for free throws and Stu takes it out on Allen. He goes down, then Allen gets another offensive rebound. There just wasn't enough intensity from Detroit whatsoever. And I think sometimes you can just look around and going like, how the hell are we going to score? And then no one's scoring. And that's impacting your defense as well. So Cleveland, clearly the better team, I think the better team moved on, the more talented team moved on. It's just the ups and downs of Donovan Mitchell. Because I just expect at least like 30 from him every single night, which I know isn't entirely fair. And then kind of this, I mean, this is kind of the way it is for a lot of these guys in the league, even some really special players. It's just, oh, hey, this guy had a bad playoff game. This guy had a bad playoff game. But collectively, if you're going to get this much domination from your two bigs and Dern, who I think I noticed twice last night, where I was like, oh, okay, maybe he's, maybe he's going to show up because he was terrific in game six. There was some real intention from Dern, where you're like, you know, sometimes you're just going to have to go, man. Like even if there's people in front, you're just going to have to go. And Dern finishes the playoffs with a 10, 10 and 8.5. So 10 points per game, eight and a half rebounds, 51% from the floor, slightly off his regular season of a 20 and 10 average, 65% from the floor, average three free throw attempts per game in the playoffs over six in the regular season. Guess what? He's still going to get paid a ton. So they'll go, Hey, he was a young guy, his first real taste at this, even though he's in the playoffs or six games last year. But him disappearing like this is a big reason why Detroit is home. What else from this game? Look, I feel better about Kade. I know you can get in some of the box score stuff, you can get to the plus minus from last night. I think that's completely missing the point that this guy basically has to figure out how to get them into a good look every single time. And he has to basically hit all of those mid-range pull-ups for them to even have a chance if no one around him is doing anything. So Dern's not doing anything offensively again. Harris goes 0 for 6. I thought there were two early drives from him where he went really soft. I'm like, all right, well, that's not a great sign. Jenkins hit his first couple threes and then he disappears. I understand why they went to Jenkins and said it Duncan Robinson. And then you have the Asar factor where as much fun as he is defensively, what drives me crazy about him is like, okay, fine, nobody's going to guard you because you can't shoot. And that's going to lead to all other problems that we've already discussed because then Mowgli can just float the entire time. But there are times where Asar would be opposite on the ball side, right? So he's on the other side of the ball. And the player assigned to him defensively has no idea where he even is. He's just like, whatever, I'm not going to defend him, which is fine. But there were times where I think Asar could have cut off the ball and come to the ball. And a couple of times that he did do it, I don't know that he was really ready on the catch. Other times he'd be ignored. And I understand too, like part of it is, well, you don't want to bring your defender over to the ball side. If they're in theory, I mean, it sounds ridiculous to say Asar is providing spacing. But the problem is, is defensive players already paying attention to the ball. Anyway, so that traffic is already there. So I thought that there were multiple opportunities. It wasn't going to change the series, but some opportunities to be like, hey, if the guy defending you doesn't know where you are, like find an open spot against the help and be ready to go as soon as you get the ball. And I don't think he was ready to go even in the limited times that he did it. But again, that wasn't going to fix the series. This Detroit team is an incredibly flawed team, probably one of the most flawed number one overall seeds in conference that I've ever seen. They still potentially, you know, if they'd had great defense and Allen and Mowgli don't go off, you know, maybe they pull this thing out at home. Their home record in game sevens had been perfect prior to last night. So he's not really quite sure what was going to happen with Cleveland either because you get the hardened factor where he had two made field goals and two shot clock violations on both shot clock violations. They didn't want to shoot. So get ready for it, Caz fans. If you get hardened in game seven again, you can see it immediately. It's like, oh, it doesn't want to shoot the ball tonight. Cool. This is going to be fun. So he has a dud and he moves on. The good thing for Mitchell, and this can all seem kind of silly, the way we do this with players, but it's also true. Like he is no longer a guy that you can say, hey, he's never got another second round, even if you're like, I play Toronto, play Detroit that never was really comfortable with any of their lineups, which is sort of weird for a 60 win team, which is why I kept bringing it up all the time. So yeah, now they're in the Eastern Conference finals. So Donovan Mitchell is awesome now. I think the history would tell you, I like Mitchell probably, I'm more of like a pro Mitchell guy than I would be anti him, but it seems like, I just, I guess, look, it's a little philosophical. It just feels a little silly at times to be like, okay, whoo, totally different guy now. Like, is he? But the truth is, the same way if Embiid were to get to an Eastern Conference finals or NBA finals, you just can't say it anymore. So that in itself is a win, even if you could dig through the path going like, I don't know what to do with this team. Against New York, they went two and one. I think the Knicks should be thrilled to Pistons Argon, because again, those regular season matchups felt like Detroit's length, athleticism, or maybe a regular season during was kind of an issue for New York. And now they play a Cleveland team that defensively is middle of the pack, a Cleveland team that I do think is really deep and has some cool options. And if the Cavs get steady contribution from Mobley Allen granted, like each guy is going to have an absolute dud of a game in there, because it's just kind of the way this stuff works. And that's why your max players offensively are supposed to provide all the offense, even when you don't have it. I think this is a win for New York just because of what I saw from the regular season. The two games that they played, they had one in October, one in December, so obviously no Harden. And then the February 24th game was with Harden, Cleveland won that one. The second game during the regular season between these two teams was fantastic. Big time, fourth quarter, comeback from the Knicks. They're Harden, Mitchell each missed one game during the regular season matchups, but Cleveland won that last one by 15. I'm not 100% sure what it means. But I do think, based on, again, that regular season stuff there, New York is probably happy. Knicks and Six. I have an MVP vote. As you know, the award was announced yesterday. I did vote for SGA. I was conflicted. I have a hard time with it. Some years I'm like, ah, this is not that hard. Other years, I think it's a little harder. I was not. Somebody was like, oh, it's SGA. And I can't think about anybody else. I think I went SGA, Yolkich, Wemby, Luca, then Kade. Kade may have been fourth if he hadn't missed so much time. I think there's a Wemby pivot, depending on how this Western Conference finals goes to. There can be some carryover where it might just be everybody starts voting for him next year, which seems a little unfair to him now. But then you could also get into a total minutes thing where you're like, all right, I don't have an issue with any of these two dudes. The biggest deciding factor for me was when Yolkich came back, I just thought that there was some stuff at the end of some of those tight games. They weren't winning clutch games. He wasn't shooting at great. There was some turnover stuff. And it was like a really, really thin margin for me. I was like, you know, I just feel like SGA is just a little steadier on the better team, which isn't always a deciding factor for me. Record wise, I think some people use that to kind of bail out how they want to vote on this stuff. It's happened in the past where I've gone against the standings and not really cared. But this one, I felt fine with SGA. Now, the reason we're bringing this up because Saruti and I were talking last night, and I wanted to run through a bit of an exercise here with your Western Conference Finals players. And that is if you were drafting, let's say 16 players, right, between the Thunder roster and the Spurs roster, just for this series, not contracts, not trade value, not moving forward. Who would you take? And then how many Spurs, how many guys from the Thunder would you go? And ultimately, like, would everyone take Wimbanyama over the guy who just won his second MVP? And the answer is yes. It should be Wimbanyama. As special as SGA is for this series, or for any seven game series, and what Wimbanyama has been doing here and what he provides you defensively and then go, I'll start there and then I'll figure the rest of it out. He should be the number one pick. I asked the front office this too, so you can see how different my thoughts were from somebody from a front office. So I went, this was really hard. It was really hard because you get the Jalen Williams factor of like, well, what do I do? Do I give him benefit of the doubt? Do I just pencil him in here as the third overall pick? Or do I ding him? Because we're just not quite sure. So I went Wimbanyama one, SGA two, I went CHEP three, I went Castle four, then I'm going to give it to Jalen Williams at five. He might be three if it was like a normal nice stretch from him. This is where it gets a little weird. I went Harper six. I would take him like right now, you're like, you can have Dylan Harper or De'Aaron Fox. I would take Harper. I have Fox seven, Hartenstein eight, A.J. Mitchell nine, bit of a thunder run here. Caruso 10, Wallace 11, Dork 12, Vacell 13, Keldon Johnson 14, 15. I'm going to go with a little Lucornette. And then that last spot, like Wiggins, who was actually in the rotation is not now. Last year, I think I'm going to go McCain over Isaiah Joe, which also seems stupid because I think if the Thunder have everybody, I'm not even sure that he plays. So it should probably be Joe over McCain, but I'm just going to go with McCain, which again, I don't love my rationale for that one. All right. So front office, he went Wemby, SGA, Chet, Fox four, item seven, Castle. He has A.J. Mitchell six, Harper seven, really dinged Jalen Williams here because of the injury and the unknown. He did say, hey, look, it was normal Jalen Williams. He's three. Caruso nine, Hartenstein 10, Vacell 11, Keldon Johnson 12, 13, Wallace 14, Dork. So I had, no, I had Dork 12, Isaiah Joe 15, and then he went Harrison Marnes 16. So no Lucornette from our front office source or anonymous source. What I did think was kind of funny was he was like, you know, it's because he was like 7am. You're asking me this. He was like, just running through the exercise here for a few minutes, just makes you realize how gross it is, how talented both of these teams are, which I think is accurate. I went back and watched the last game that mattered between San Antonio and OKC this morning. Just to remind you, the San Antonio Spurs went four and one against OKC during the regular season. We already knew that. Wemby averaged 25 minutes a game. So numbers way down, 18, 9 and 2, or his average against the Thunder shooting splits 52 and 63% from three. However, that's misleading because he only took 1.63 point attempts per game. So I don't know if they'll run that number up there and say, oh, he kills him from three without pointing out he's barely taking any shots against them. Three games were between December 13th and the 25th. So San Antonio won all three of those. Then January 13th, OKC won 1.19.98. Then they had the February 4th game where OKC's five starters were the other Jalen Williams, Kenrich Williams, Joe Wiggins. Wallace must have been like, seriously, like I have to play in this game. Brandon Carlson, Brooks Barnheiser, Chris Youngblood, your other three in that game. So not a ton. I didn't watch that one this morning. Looking back at the fourth one where it was the only one that OKC got, Chet starts in Wemby and Yama and within three minutes they have Jalen Williams on him. There was even a little Kenrich Williams on him. Some really good stuff from Castle passing to Wemby and Yama on some of these drives, which he's just blown up here during the playoffs. But some reminders like, oh yeah, he was still pretty good on the regular season too. It looks like Jalen Williams is the preferred matchup. Hartenstein didn't play in this game. There's also a little Kenrich Williams on him. But the biggest thing that I noticed that I thought was, well, I have maybe two things here as I finish up, that Wemby and Yama, and you see this all the time with the Spurs, is that he wants to stay low even if his assignment is somebody who provides some spacing. So when he's assigned to Chet, he may take Chet and follow him down the floor after a make and see what Chet does. But when Chet stays up or he's setting a screen or they're trying to do something for Chet, if Wemby and Yama has time, and this is where the communication and his smarts are just so impressive, and this is also a young team where, look, if you do it enough for six months, you'd think you'd figure it out. So they have. Where Wemby and Yama wants to stay low no matter what. It's not going to happen every time. Like sometimes he's going to be the closest of Chet is getting into his offense and is looking for a shot. Although I still think Chet likes to catch and then reset. It's not just a, hey, I'm going to go to work here. Maybe it's a turnaround against a smaller player. Probably not Wemby and Yama. But Wemby wants to stay low, and that led to wide open threes at times in the corner because he's talking to whoever is defending like a Wiggins or Wallace. Maybe it'd be an Isaiah Joe. I didn't necessarily even see that possession, but it's a guard is against one of these guys that runs to the corner. And then if there's enough time, Wemby and Yama is going to go, you know what, like you go up top to Chet, I want to stay low because I'm still really defending against any kind of SGA drive. And I don't want to be 30 feet away from the hoop getting turned around and then running behind SGA the entire time. And there were some nice open shots there for OKC, depending on how quickly they got the ball to Wemby and Yama, kind of like floating still. And it looked like it was like, we don't even want you running to close out against some of the stuff. Look, there are so many minutes from these regular season games that are probably irrelevant now. I was just trying to kind of find anything. And one number during the third quarter stretch here, because OKC put together a 14-1 run. Some of it was without Wemby and Yama, then they brought him in. San Antonio went double big. They bailed on that. It was really good defense. It was forcing some turnovers. If I'm OKC, I want to try to push it. I want to push it with a look. Like that would be the plan. Doesn't mean we're going to run all night long. It doesn't mean that we're always looking for layups or that we're going to challenge anyone at the rim just because we want to pick up the pace here. It's just like push with a look. Like, off of miss. Let's push it. Let's see if there's something there. And if not, we can just bring it back out and put in the MVP hands of SGA. And that's probably going to be a pretty good look at times too. Because despite what OKC does so well, right, they force you into an absurd number of turnovers. Granted, the Lakers were missing some dudes. One in particular who's really good, but you get the point. Like LA was probably going to turn it over a lot anyway, but especially against this OKC defense, but San Antonio has done a great job in the five regular season games against OKC averaging only 12.6 turnovers per game, which is a really nice number, especially when you're going up against this team. But that one stretch where OKC like really looked like OKC, because there's a cup game in there where I'm like, man, this is weird how San Antonio just clogged this team up that never looks this clogged up. I thought, I thought it was just a nice little sign of, hey, it may not be a perfect two on one, three on two, that kind of stuff, but let's just push it a little bit earlier so that we're not letting Wimbanyama settle in to whatever he wants to do in the half court. 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That's an additional 20% off better plants and better growing at fastgrowingtrees.com using the code ryan at checkout fastgrowingtrees.com code ryan. Now is the perfect time to plant. Let's grow together. Use ryan to save today. Offers valid for a limited time. Terms and conditions may apply. I saw a great clip from Brennan Haywood from the NBA this past week. He's got a Instagram page, YouTube page and it's called Tallis Tales and he was talking about prepping for the 2011 Miami Heat when he was with the Dallas Mads and won the whole thing. He joins us on the show now. He's called Games for CBS TNT NBC, Wizards Coverage as well. So it's good to see you man. Thanks for joining the show today. Man, thanks for having me man. It's an honor to be here. So I want to get to some of your stories because they're great. But I do want to start with what we saw in the second round from Detroit and Cleveland. And I think it's a big guy. It's one of those things where with Mobley and Allen who I think most teams would be like, yeah, I want those guys. I know it can be up and down for the non-stars. But do you feel like anything clicked for either Mobley or Allen or both of them that you feel like can carry over to the Eastern Conference finals? Yeah, I think the first thing that I saw, if you go back and look at game seven, because that's what's freshest on my mind, Donovan Mitchell started that game off getting his bigs involved. I think that's key. Let the big men eat early. If you want the dragon to protect the castle, you got to feed them early on in the process. So let those bigs get those loves, those easy shots because Donovan Mitchell gets so many opportunities. He can pick and choose whenever he wants to be aggressive. But I loved how he came out in game seven. First play, love the Mobley. He had a couple really nice drop offs to a big fella inside, Jared Allen. And I think that's what really kicked the party off. D-Mitch had like five assists early on in that game, finished with eight. I think the way he saw the court and got those bigs involved, I think that was huge. I'm with you. I think this game has shifted, and this has been going on for years, obviously with three point shooting and the spacing and some teams preferring still smaller lineups, that it's almost like you've got to go out and fight for touches. He's a big guy. It's like, can I get any touches here? And Mitchell's passing, somebody who hasn't had a ton of assists throughout the playoffs. What does that do for you as a big to energize you kind of in all the other facets of the game that you have to stay competitive in when you know you're getting a couple early buckets? I just take it back to myself. Now, I wasn't as good as that with Mobley or Jared Allen. But when I was starting, I was playing for the Washington Wizards, I played with a guy by the name of Gilbert Aranis, incredibly gifted guard. And I would always tell Gil, yo man, when you drive down the lane, just find me early. Find me early. Because it gives me a little bit of a rhythm. I feel like I'm part of the action. And yeah, I know I'm not going for 28, but you give me a couple of dunks here and there. And now I got a different bop in my step. You know, if you want Jared Allen to do all the dirty stuff a couple times, just spoon feed him a couple of dunks a couple of times, or maybe you could shoot a floater, turn it into a lob and you'll be surprised how much that helps a big man's confidence. It just gets him going. It's just something about dunking at the other end. It also has an adverse effect on the other teams, big man, because you don't want your guy to get three or four easy ones. Selfishly, I would tell Gil, listen, if you don't, if you give me two to three easy ones early, I guarantee you'll get two to three easy ones late. Because don't nobody want to let Brendan Haywood have 10 points in the first half. They feel like they're not doing their job. You know what I'm saying? They do that. They average eight for the game. We can't let him get off. So like that, all those things add up. And that's why as a guard, when you come down that lane early in the game, if you can drop it off to your big and let him get busy, you should always do that. When I think about this Dicks matchup for Cleveland, one of the things that I think made it a lot easier for Cleveland is once they put Mobley on a Sar Thompson, then that meant that a Sar was going to be ignored and then Mobley could float. And then I think on top of that, it makes it that much harder for Dern. Like we could look at Dern and say, hey, he's young. It's a second playoffs ever. He had a great regular season. But it was a lot to ask to have to fight with like two bigs a lot of the time. But then that's probably being nice because there's also way too many minutes where you're just not even noticing him whatsoever. So I don't think concern is the right way to ask it. But just kind of looking at Dern, does it make you feel like you have to take a second look at him after this great regular season? Or is it easy to excuse because of the factors that I've mentioned? So if I was trailing you when Jalen Dern walked into my office, I'd be like, listen, man, there's a difference between the regular season and the postseason. If you haven't paid attention, they took the lobs out of the game and your game went down into the tank. So there's going to be some things where you have to get a little bit better. You have to learn from this situation. And then I'm also going to explain to him why, listen, we're going to go out and find a true number two option. We love what you do. But we need a true secondary score to go along with Kade Cunningham. That's why his turnover is so high. So I'm sitting there, I'm telling them the real, like, listen, we love you, you're part of the team, we're going to give you a big time contract. But here are the things we need from you. I need you to work on your game, add a couple of, a couple of more offensive moves so we can run more offense through you. And then in the off season, I don't care whether it's a Michael Porter Jr., a Michael Porter Jr., I don't care whether it's a Lori Markin and Zach Levine. Ideally, maybe a Devin Booker, but probably can't get him. But some type of secondary score, we're going to have to bring him in to do what you couldn't do these playoffs. Because that was the biggest thing that I saw from the Pistons. They're two young guys. When you look at Thompson and Duran, they found out the difference between the regular season and the postseason. The game slows down, the refs let it get a lot more physical and teams are a lot more game playing discipline. Listen, they were going to Sar Thompson like he had Covey. Is there, well, look, we know it's different because the Knicks do not run out in a Sar Thompson. There is no perimeter player that you're allowed to ignore with somebody who also was defensive player of the year. So it's not just, Hey, let's make sure there's no one extended here. Let's now let a defensive player of the year flow and do whatever he wants. The OG health thing changes things for the Knicks here. But what is, what's the most important thing that you're going to be looking for trying to figure out how this series goes between New York and Cleveland? From the Knicks side, it's going to be can Carl Antietown stay out of foul trouble? Because he is one of the better big men in this league, but he picks up the most nonsensical fouls I've ever seen in the playoffs. And that's been consistent from Minnesota all the way till now. He's playing against two incredible big names, Jared Allen and Evan Mobley. He has to find a way to stay out on the court because he's too good to commit the silly, the silly over the backs, just straight running people over, even though you see him, the reckless reach in and hacks. Carl Antietown has to stay away from silly fouls and make sure that he is, his presence is definitely felt in the series. I think that's what has to happen on the Knicks side of things. On the flip side, if you're a Cleveland, you got to put Jalen Brunson in the action. You got to wear him down, kind of similar to what the Pacers did to him last year. Put him in a lot of action, make him work, because you know he's good enough to get his on the offense event, but you can't let him be fresh. Make sure he's got to guard James, he's got to guard Mitchell. If he tries to switch on to somebody else, don't let him hide. Make Jalen Brunson come out and play. One of the things that I liked about the Knicks, you know, as it got better, it was like they had multiple players on Atlanta, whether it's Dyson, Alexander Walker, you know, like they were always looking to target CJ, but there were say 60% of whatever your three-man backcourt combo was. You felt like they could at least stay in the fight with Brunson until it was a screen and then whatever would happen after that. It was very clear against Philadelphia, they did not have the man power because you're like, Hey, do I want to go a VJ? Do I want to go up Maxi? Do I want to bring him bead up because he's not going to close out on any of this stuff. So I felt like it was a massive like wake-up call of, man, this is way more fun going up against Philly's roster for Brunson than it was going up against Atlanta's, even though Brunson eventually is going to always get his numbers. You might want to attack Mitchell. You probably would love to get hard and going side to side, but if you're going to be Brunson going right into him, I'd give hardness. Like he's going to hold up physically. Like he's not going to give up ground if you kind of go like straight at him, but if you can get him chasing, then he might even just kind of give up on the whole thing, or I think Mitchell is going to fight a little bit more. But what you don't have, which Brunson loves to live on, you don't really have the center that you're going to want to switch into. You know, it's going to be preferably Allen than it would be Mowgli, but when it's Mowgli out there by himself, I can't imagine the next, maybe it's just to start whatever the play is. Hey, let's get the one five switch and then we're doing something else, but it's not going to be Brunson attacking Mowgli, I would think off the dribble with as much success as he does against other players. That's what makes his Cleveland roster so good. They have not one, they have two two-way bakes. Jared Allen and Mowgli, they can give you rim protection. Mowgli's been the defensive play of the year. They can switch to pick and roll and move their feet with the guard. So yeah, you don't always want to attack their bigs, but at the same time you brought up Hardon's defense. Yeah, he might slide, have that initial slide, but that's the guy I want right there. Yo, James, want you? I want James in the action. You know, like that's the guy that if I'm the New York Knicks, let's find some mid post plays where we can go with James, we can exploit that matchup. We know their bigs are a little bit different. Their big, their big men can really get out and move their feet, but that's why I kept bringing up Carly Anthony Towns. Because if they switch and Evan Mowgli or Jared Allen or whoever goes out there and guards Jaylen Brunson, Carly Anthony Towns cannot hang out on the perimeter when that switch happens. He has to run straight to 15 feet or the low block, catch that ball and kill. That's what he has to do. That's why he's so important because we know they're going to try to switch with their bigs, but if they switch, if they switch a small on the Carly Anthony Towns, he's the guy. I know he's the number two option, but every, and listen, every, every Batman needs a Robin and Robin's going to have to come help save Gotham this time. And I think he can do it. He's set up perfect. He's had a lot of rest. He's going to come into this series fresh. He has the perfect opportunity to shed this label that he can't really, that he's soft or he can't get it done in the playoffs. This is the series where you announced to the world that I'm here right now. You helped the Knicks get to the finals and you do it against two of the best big men in the league. So it sounds like you're picking the Knicks. I am. I am. I am. I have, I think that both these rosters are very good. I just have more faith in Jaylen Brunson than I do anybody else in this series. And I love everybody, but I think it's going to be a great series. But if this game is closed down to stretch, I'm just going to put my money on Jaylen Brunson. Yeah, I'm with you, Knicks and six. Okay. Western Conference finals. If I, not drafting for the future, but for these next two weeks, you know, it feels like it's going to go seven here. If you could have anyone from either of the two rosters, who would you start with between San Antonio and O'Kissie? Sure. Easily. Two time maybe. Over Wimby. Over Wimby, yes. Okay. Wimby is incredible. She is a two time MVP, but more importantly, a lot of times when I watch Wimby, he's still a young player trying to figure it out. Officially, sometimes he's still trying to figure out, should I jab here? Should I, how should I get it off? How should I get my shot off in this moment? She knows everything he wants to do. He knows exactly where he wants to be. And it's so hard to take it away. So like, I'm, Hey, listen, now you asked me this question in a year, it might be Wimby, but right now today, all that, give me, give me the, give me the Canadian man. Hey, it's been a good time for Canadians this, this, this weekend. I look, I can't believe there's a big guy, you didn't take Wimby. I'm shocked by this answer. I was like, I'll ask, but he's just going to be a big, you big guys are biased. You protect each other. Listen, Shay is honestly the perfect superstar. He defends, he scores, he's efficient, he can pass. Like he is not a pain in the ass, not a great leader, his teammates love him. And then proof of concept, we've already seen him win. So it's just like, and listen, I love Wimby. Like I said, Shay's got now Wimby's got next, unless Wimby wins in this series, but you asked me who I would take today. Let me get the two time MVP. Are you picking O.K.C? I got O.K.C and seven. I think it's going to be a hard fought series. And I know that San Antonio has curb stomp O.K.C all season long, but I have the utmost faith that with J. Will coming back, the way agent Mitchell has performed in these playoffs, um, that O.K.C is, has a, is going to, uh, win this series. I want to get to some of your playoff history and game planning, but you know, when you watch Wimby, what would you be talking about with your stat? Like say you were on O.K.C right now, and from what you've seen from him, I mean, I know it's a little unfair because you retired. It's not like you played against him this year, but you also get to watch him a ton. There's no like solution to it, but what would your priorities be? Um, my priorities would be first and foremost, don't overreact to his jump shots. And I know he can shoot, but I want the seven four guy on the perimeter as much as possible. So we're not having no situation where we close, we're closing out short, not like a Saur Thompson short, but we don't want to let him drive to the basket and get into the paint because the more and more somebody seven four affects the paint, the easier it is for him and his teammates. So I will close out a little bit short to that, to his jump shot. I would try to get a little bit physical when he posts up, try to bump them off the lane. Um, but we know, we, we talked about one, he's going to be go down as one of the best big men ever. So there's not a lot of answers to, uh, to the question of how you stop Wimby. But my thing is don't overreact to the jump shot. Let's get a little bit physical with them if possible to kind of similar to what Minnesota tried to do. Let's make sure we bump them off the lane, no easy catches, um, in direct dumps. I was watching the O K C win this morning and I was trying to look at like the defensive assignments again too, because like in the beginning of the year when people were like, okay, one kind of step is women, Yama taking, there was pretty traditional a let's go to play with centers. Like we need to have size that can test some of this stuff. And then there was a real pivot to like, there's someone stout that's like a small forward, even a car, like as there are the Lakers did it with Rui, you know, it's like, let's get into his hip. It's going to be a lower center center of gravity. Um, and I think that might be why Jane Williams got two weeks off because they're like, Hey, don't rush it. Take two weeks off. We'll sweep Phoenix. We'll sweep LA because you may be defending women Yama, the majority of the time we may start with chat. Heart and style is probably going to get a couple of looks at it, but it might be Jaylen Williams going up against him. Um, and I'll ask you this as a big guy. Okay. See everybody complains about how physical they are off the ball, on the ball, the way they're called. Um, I think it's kind of like, Hey, they can't call every foul. So we'll just do it this way. I think if it's a smaller player or women Yama, it's going to be really, it's going to be a really annoying series. He's still going to be awesome, but what a perimeter player, whether it's Caruso or Dora or even Jaylen Williams is bigger than those guys, what they're going to be allowed to do physically against women Yama, as opposed to another seven footer that matches him, you know this, the, the discrepancy between what a big guy gets away with and what a small guy gets away with it. It is an unsolvable thing that's always happened in NBA history. Yeah. Like it. So a lot of it comes down to how you attack the small. So a lot of times when you say, Oh, there's a big on a small, you just think, okay, just run right here and post up. That's the easiest way to guard a guy because now, now all eyes are on him like he's two-pointer. Like, nah, nah, we're not doing that. When I see that match up, what I want to do is I'm going to tell Wimby, we're going to get you the ball, but we want to get you on the second side of the action. Set a pick first, roll down the lane. So they're going to have to come off. Whoever's on your body is going to have to come off. And if they don't come off, you saw some of those plays early on in the San Antonio elimination game when they didn't come off Wimby's body and um, Castle's is going down to late dunking. So we're going to use that aspect of it. First of all, we're going to have you set a screen. They're going to have to switch that guy that they want on you off of you. Then what I really want you to do is just roll to the rim, turn around and be seven forward in the middle of the lane. That is the easiest way to beat that strategy. Because yeah, we can front you and do all these things if you run to the block and we just put three guys around you. But if you set a screen first and then we get you the ball on the second side, there's so many other actions that they have to worry about. They have to worry about the screen and roll. They have to worry about the lob pass. And then we have a direct line of throw to you in the lane. It's easy peasy. I might need to get me an assistant coach at y'all. No, but what you're talking about is kind of the Drew Holiday matchup where I'm going like, you can't just get him on the block at some point and you're like, all right, and look, Drew fronting when Minyama is not going to be effective. But when it fell apart, it was falling apart with simple two-man action. It was just like, look, can we have three shooters, two on one side, one on the other side, and hopefully we're running it on the side with the one shooter so there's not two other defenders that can come off and help off the three point line. But when it fell apart, there was like a stretch in one of the games where I'm like, okay, this is actually now a disaster here for Portland. Like credit to Drew Holiday for even staying that competitive with it for as long as he did. But it wasn't like the old school, Mikhail on the block thing that sometimes I wonder like, is there never an opportunity to do some of that stuff there? Because once you're chasing after him, then the lob is back in play. Yeah. I mean, and also what your teammates do on the weak side is very key into that coverage. Because obviously if you're playing Wimby with a small, more than likely you're fronting your three-quartering him, there's lob aspects. So when you make that swing swing and you get a Vasell to knock down a couple of corner threes or Kelton Johnson's hitting his shot, that's what really, that's when it becomes, oh my, okay, I don't know what we're going to do. Because this same exact strategy that we're talking about, okay, see you did against Joker last year. Why did it work? Well, Russell Westbrook couldn't shoot it. Like they didn't have anybody, they didn't have enough shooters to stop that coverage. And the thing about San Antonio is they have enough guys that knock down shots. They can say, you know what, let's take Castle from this area and replace him with this guy. And now if you want to put two, three people around Wimby and go and get physical with a small, when we make that quick swing, it's to somebody that's ready to catch and shoot and knock that shot in. And I always say this, role players give stars the space to be stars in the playoffs. That's why Kobe always trusted Derek Fisher because he, when I get in this lane and I create a problem and Derek Fisher's man is at the nail, when I take it to him, he knocks down two or three shots. His man ain't coming next time. Now I get to go into Mamba mentality. That's why LeBron always wants to play with shooters. Those others, those other guys, when that heavy coverage comes down to trying to bog down the star and those guys knock down three or four threes, boom, that totally changes the game plan. And that's how you go from a tight game to a quick, quick blowout. Let's go back to 2011. This incredible run for your Mavs team, where after the first round, it was six, you ran through the Lakers in the second round at OKC in nine games. What I want to focus on, and you just brought up Kobe is how you game plan with this terrific staff with Carlisle, how you game plan for Kobe and then how that changed knowing the tendencies of LeBron a couple of rounds later in the NBA finals. So first off, our assistant coaching staff, our whole coaching staff in 2011 was great. We talked about Rick Carlisle, going to be a Hall of Fame coach. Terry Stott's had some incredible years coaching Portland and Duane Casey did a great job in Toronto and Detroit was actually the coach of the year. So we would have different game plans. Now the game plan for Kobe, there's really no game plan for Kobe, but our biggest game plan for the Lakers was to attack their bigs. Kobe can go left, he goes right. You have different areas where you want to help. But our biggest thing was myself, Tyson Chandler, set as many screens as possible because we wanted Powell and Andrew Bideman all the action. And if you go back and look at that series, our second unit was killing them because we were setting these picks and rolls and their bigs were always far back in the lane. So J.J. Borreia is killing them. Paisa Stiakovic and Jason Terry coming in with that second unit. Like one time, I remember just in Dallas, we flat out just the second unit random off the floor. Like everybody from a plus minus standpoint, I think I might have been a plus 40 and I didn't even score. I was just running back and down the court just saying, I'm just setting screens baby, plus minus collage. Sometimes I'm just setting a good screen and guess what? They turn into corner, Andrew Bideman is low, Powell Vassal is low, and it's leading to Paisa Stiakovic by six, seven threes. Jason Terry, a bunch of threes. J.J. Borreia, a bunch of mid-range jump shot. So our game plan against the Lakers, we want their bigs involved in every single action. Because the Lakers at that point, they used to run a lot of action through Powell and Andrew Bideman. We like, you know what? We want these guys tired. We want these guys for T. And we ain't running no plays for you and Tyson Chandler. So we need you guys to fatigue them as far as running the court hard, a million one screening rolls, and all of a lot of our plays were about getting those bigs on the move. When you talk about something like that, you can talk about it. You deserve all the credit for executing it that long because it's kind of like running the football and handing it off and going, we only got one yard, we only got two yards. Like, shouldn't it make a little more sense to take some deep shots here to see if we can get a big play? And it's like, no, we need to run the football because we need Bynum and Gasol to be miserable. As an aside, before we get to the finals, was there a team that you would go against where you felt like, based on your role, like this team makes me feel miserable because of what they're making me. It's not just, hey, this guy's really good and it's really tough, but somebody you always felt like, whether maybe it was a coach where it's like, he kind of always knew how to make me not want to be in the game, but always feel uncomfortable. I'm not sure if there was a game plan. It would just be certain matchups, certain players. It would be certain guys like, Portland LaMarcus Aldridge got a lot of shots. And when he really started, when I first used to guard, I used to just cut off his right hand and then he developed that turnaround jump shot and a little pump fake. So sometimes when LaMarcus Aldridge and Portland really got cooking, it was like, this is a tough matchup. I know I want to guard my yard, but coach said help. I need a little bit of help. I need some help. So it wasn't like I was scared of the matchup. It would just be certain matchups. I'd be like, I know if this is a young, this is the key. Certain young players grow. I used to be able to guard LaMarcus Aldridge easy because he would only go to his right hand and that turnaround jumper, I used to just time it up. And then he started to develop in this game. And I was like, Oh, that turnaround jump where he's developed the pump fake off of, but he's developed a little bit more to the left. Now he becomes so much harder to guard that it's like, it's not quite as easy as it was before. So that matchup was something now I'm like, Hey guys, I know I take pride in my defense. I'm going to need a little bit of help. I'm a force in this way. I need somebody else to be here because right now he's getting the better of me. See, I put you on the spot and that was a great answer. Okay, going in to 2011, you know, the heater in the finals, the first year through with this thing, we're looking at this Dallas team because I remember it was like, man, what a great story. But like, I don't know, you know, I didn't pick you. No offense. Sorry. Nobody, nobody, nobody picked. What was it about game planning for LeBron defensively that gave you this advantage? So I told the story the other day and I'm going to tell it again. So in that playoffs, LeBron was shooting like 55 or like 57% from the floor and the whole playoffs, which is incredible for a wing play. But Rick Carlisle drew that number up on the board. He said 55%. And then and he circled it. And he said, but now this is what LeBron shoots from the field outside of 15 feet. And that number was like 20%. He's like, our game plan is elbows and boxes. And we got to make everything look cluttered for LeBron. And it was kind of like the spur strategy, but we adjusted it. They wouldn't guard him. We would actually pick him up and pressure him because we didn't want him to see the floor. So we would tell guys like DeSean, Stevenson, Jason Terry, JT, Sean Marion, when you're guarding LeBron, we want you to pick him up early because we don't want him to get ahead of steam. But then when he gets into the half court, you're still up into him. But when somebody calls screen, we're going to go under that screen and you're going to have help on the other side. And the scout report was, we don't care who you're helping off of. You don't leave until you see that LeBron is no longer going down the lane. We didn't care if it was Mike Miller. We knew he could shoot. So what? We didn't care if it was Duane Wade. We know he's the Hall of Famers. So what? If we keep this guy out of the lane, he's not going to shoot 55% from the field because at that point, LeBron, he didn't believe in his three point shot nearly as much. And then more importantly, he didn't just walk to the post. He didn't walk them post up. And we also knew that also. So it was like, if we shut down the elbows and boxes on his drives, then make him throw the ball to the weak side, we have a way better chance of winning. Hey, I'm like, Coach, Chris Bosch is in the corner. I don't care. Get all the way over. When that man looks at the paint, he needs to see four or five eyes. Everybody looking at him. And when you watch, go back and watch some of those series, those old games, Jay Kidd's old, but he's sprinting back to get into the paint on transition. Like, yo, we can't give these, this guy dunks. We can't give him layups. We know what he is when he gets in the paint. And once we took that paint away, it became a lot harder for him. And the second thing was, LeBron didn't have a post game at that point. So Sean Marion was started off the game on LeBron. But somewhere during that series, D-Wave started cooking. Like D-Wave had an incredible series. So we had to pull Sean Marion off of LeBron and put him on Dwayne Wade. And at first we're kind of like, we're thinking that it's not going to work. But we didn't think that he would go to the block consistently. And he never did. He might go to the block every once in a while, but he never made us pay for guarding him with smaller players. That wasn't the post game wasn't in his repertoire at that time. And we were able to exploit that. And I, but after saying all that, after that series, LeBron got better because he started posting up more. He became better at shooting the three. He became better at the mid range, posting up from 15 feet on end. Everything that we took away, he took that to heart and he got better every single year. That strategy won't, that strategy went out the window probably two to three years after we used it. You said two things in there that I think are really interesting because it could be used as an anti LeBron agenda and a pro LeBron agenda. Oh Lord, no, oh Lord, not the, not the, and anytime you say anything about LeBron is that all the Jordan people come up, see, see that's my hand to go. Right. So I, I'm just, I'm doing it for them in case they missed it. But you said, hey, we had to take Marion off of him to put him on weight. So then it's like the Jordan guys that go, oh my God, but you also spent two minutes, three minutes prior to that saying, hey, our entire game plan was to make sure we stopped him and help off of everybody else, which be an argument in favor of the pro LeBron people out there. So I think, I just think that's really interesting that you kind of gave us these two things that would sort of fight each other if you want to pick one. I can just already see the tweets now of saying like, Heywood said we had to take Marion off of LeBron and put him on weight. Yeah, but there's, but it's true like that. What about all the other stuff he said? Two things can be true. LeBron James was the head of the snake. He was the best player in the league at that point, and we couldn't win that series if we didn't stop him. The second thing is Dwayne Wade was a better post player at that point and Dwayne Wade was killing Jason Kidd and we had to put more size on him. That's, that's just the truth of it. It's not an anti LeBron take or pro Jordan take. It's like, this is what happened. If you don't believe me, just watch. Go look at the 2011 series. Dwayne was a monster on that block. People, people forget by how cold Dwayne was getting to that lane that floater. He was destroying us on that block. Were you guys mad at the fake coughing from LeBron and Wade? Yes. We were incensed. We were, we were super mad because Dirk was really sick. He was our leader and anybody knows Dirk, Dirk's not the loud guy. So we were mad for him. It's like, they're trying to disrespect our leader. The guys out here are playing through whatever illness he had. I think he had the flu and they think it's playtime. So everybody in our locker room really, really took that serious. We were super dialed in. Like, you don't win a game just because somebody's laughing at you and you come out mad, but it really made us dial in like, okay, we, we've really locked in on this scouting report. Now they, they think it's playtime. It was a different level of energy because we felt it was a different level of disrespect. Yeah. He had 101 fever. Yeah. You know, trying to go out there and win a championship with 101 fever probably, probably isn't something we use. You should laugh at. And then you also have to take it back to the fact Dirk and Dwayne had smoked from the 2006 NBA finals. Dirk really didn't like Dwayne anyway. He didn't like, if he's being honest, he's like, yo, you know what I didn't fool with doing before that anyway, because he didn't like the comments that Dwayne made after the 2006 finals. He didn't like those comments at all. He didn't say nothing, but he, he wore it. He didn't like it at all. There was a broadcast not that long ago where it was Candace and Dean Wade on and Candace after a call that was pretty light for a playoff game. Candace was like, imagine Wade, if you would play with this whistle and all I could think about was the 2006 NBA finals. Like he did play with that whistle in 2006. Now it's, now it's turning it and making it sound like we're, we're knocking Wade when I think both of us have a ton of respect. Yeah. The utmost respect would Dwayne Wade. I would never. Yeah. Before we say goodbye, did Arenas charge you for that Jersey? Did he charge me? Oh, did I charge him? Well, yeah, actually that's a good point. Maybe that's some good brand awareness downstairs in your studio there. I just, Oh, you're talking about the Jersey in the back. Not, well, you know, well, you know how he got the Jersey though. I don't know. Okay. So when I first came into the league, I started out as number three. I sold my Jersey to Juan Dixon because he wanted to wear number three. So I sold it for like $10,000. And then I became double zero at that point. You couldn't have double zero and zero. So when you were the Reena's came to the team, he was like, listen, man, I'll buy the Jersey from now. My mom said, Brendan, you sold your Jersey last time. Don't sell your Jersey number again. I said, mom, I got you. But I'm not doing it. I owe it to my fans. Gilles says, Brendan, I got $20,000 for you, double what Juan Dixon paid for you. I said, man, I told my mom, I'm not selling the Jersey. He said, I got $40,000 for you. I said, I don't know. He said, I got $50,000. Now, I was going to take the fit, but I was like, I still don't know. $100,000 Jersey Shores. But then I had to call my mom. I was like, mom, I know you're going to be upset, but I gave Gilbert a range to numbers. I thought we talked about this. You're not going to sell your Jersey again, Brendan. You have your, you got to have an identity in this league. I said, I know. She said, well, how much did you get? I said $100,000. She said, I just sold it too, baby. That's how Gilbert areena's got the number zero because he had to pay me off. And you got a Jersey too, downstairs in a place. Yeah, and he sent me the Jersey right there. Yeah. That worked out. If you want to hear more of our guy, Brendan, we would check out Tallest Tales. He's got a YouTube page out and we're going to have you on again, man. This was fantastic. Thank you. I appreciate you guys having me. You guys do great work as well. I'm a big fan of what you've been doing throughout the course of your media career. Thanks a lot, man. The Alliance marches on. How do we do last week? You were the only one to hit, actually. Kyle's in his feelings because you made fun of him for, what was it, minus 180 Kyle? I told me minus 180 Kyle and it really squinted her chest. I felt that one. It was minus 1000. I was going to say it at some point. And it didn't hit. So I hate to see that. I think what you had, what, and Edwards 25 or more points, you only had 20. I think I had Wemby four plus blocks, you only had three. I would throw this out there because I actually bet it. I think O.K.C. minus 165 for the NBA championship is a lot of value there. You can talk about it the other side and the guys that do this for living and all that stuff is like, hey, I'd rather have the payout. I'd rather have, hey, give me the nicks plus 550 or whatever. I think there's also a way you could play around with this a little bit, but that number has gone because I've been looking at it the entire time. I've seen it over minus 200. I've seen it minus 175 and now it's minus 165. I know that's a lot of work to do that. I can't fathom anyone from the east in any of the potential matchups winning an NBA title this year, but look, I think San Antonio is going to be an awesome series. I'm picking O.K.C. and seven. I wish I had the balls to pick San Antonio, but there's also part of me that's just like, let me get this at minus 165. And if I lose, I lose. All right. What do we got right now? I grabbed them at plus a thousand when you were doing like the spur of stuff midseason. So I'm maybe looking for a cash out. Like I'm not going to let myself do it. I'm like, well, shit, I could let myself do it. So yeah, I grabbed them at plus a thousand when you were, you know, going back and forth in your opens there. So we'll see if DK wants to give me a nice cash out or I'll just ride it out. Good for you. I like that. Yeah. I like that out of you. All right. What do we got from the board tonight? Well, for tomorrow. Yeah, we're doing Tuesday. Yeah, that's right. We're going to do Cabs next game one in the garden, three seed with the home court. Love to see that. I want you to list off because you're hot. Ryan, I'm picking York in the series and OG being on track full participation, two full contact scrimmages, I guess over the weekend. So he should be good to go. And he's turned into like one of my favorite players in the league here. Having said all that, I just think plus seven and a half in game one is too much for two teams that I think they're close you know, I don't think the Knicks are like way better than them. The Knicks have all of this momentum, which I think is also some of the number here too, because the Knicks are just going to get so many people betting on him the entire time. So even though I'm picking the Knicks in the series, I just think seven and a half is too many points to ignore. So I would take Cleveland plus the seven and a half for game one. Can I actually ask you this because I'm looking at the series odds for both these and West finals and they're close. Before I say, who do you think has a better chance of winning the series to Spurs or the Cavs? Oh, wow. Just for some perspective, they're almost dead even. Okay, C's minus 260. Knicks minus 265. Spurs plus 210. Cavs plus 215. Wow, you made this a real segment, dude. That was honestly by accident. I was just like, Oh, let me see what the series price is. And I was like, Damn, that's actually, I don't know who I think I'd lean Spurs. I think the Knicks win the series. Yeah, I mean, that's that's the thing is like, I just expect three disastrous heart and games. If it's six or seven games, we'll get to that in a second. But yeah. Yeah. So why don't I just I'll pick you back up that I've taken hard and under in our bet. So under eight 18. Oh, you are. Yeah, under 18 and a half. I'll take under 18 and a half. Yeah, I like that too, buddy. So, but did you answer the question? No. Well, you gave me the answer. No, I'm just asking you, who do you who do you think has a better chance at winning Spurs or Cavs? I thought you were actually trying to get me to guess the line and then you gave out the answer. So I was like, Oh, I'll just keep it moving here. I think Cleveland has a better chance. I mean, we're talking about okay, see. Okay, so we disagree. Kyle break the tie. Yeah, I think Ryan's right. Okay, smart, smart answer. Did you forget the question? Yes. There was a stink bug on my window and I just lost it. I don't bug in my mic during Haywood. I was kind of like, do I blow on this? And then it's he's going to be like, Whoa, yeah, that guy's pretty good. But I think he blew me a kiss at 17. I gotta go on again. No, just start, but weird vibes. Something about the beach. The guy's not married, right? Yeah. Yeah, figures. What's going on? All right, I will take yeah, Jeff Kings will be happy with this one. Definitely won't be our last one. All right. Mitchell Robinson, I'm taking him over seven and a half rebounds. That's minus 109. I think that's a non name calling bet right there. So yeah, great range. I honestly hate to do this. But this is this. So what do we have Cavs plus seven and a half hardened under 18 and a half. Are you going to tell me to take seven and a half? Mitchell Robinson over seven and a half. It's plus seven 50. That may be our highest payout of the season. And it's likely because Kyle's taken something close to even money. Okay, you know what? Well, do we give us the sake of survival here? Do we allow Kyle to stay in his lane and we lower that rebound total here? Yeah, we'll take six and a half. All right, let me take a look. Or do we just come out to shoot ready to go? Basically minus 180, which is funny. So is it minus 180 minus 179. So do with that, what you will. Let me plug it in. See what it says here. Hold on. It's Rob. Yeah. Under run it through your database. I'll see you on this is hard. How do I do compelling? I don't know. I can't do no one can go anywhere. Attention is sorry. Just make the pick then. I think it is what it is. Yeah. So all right. If you want to fold it like a long to that will be the IT is down. Perfect. Yeah. Plus seven 50 boys. Let's do it. All right. Kyle made me laugh. How hard because I was Kyle just, you know, thanks for being a great audience. Kyle, if I don't say it enough for the latest on sportsbook. DraftDraftKings.com. Our guy just had a great year. He's in studio with us. He just signed an extension too. So Charles Lee, the head coach of the Hornets. What's up? How you doing today, Ryan? Thanks for having me on. Let's start this season was so much fun. I had so much fun watching your team. You know, it was it was a team we were talking about because it was like, Hey, have you checked out the Hornets since this start? So, you know, look, rough start, some injuries there, but how did the overall season go based on your expectations? Great season. Real successful. I think not only did our team get better, a lot of players individually got better, had some like career years, or we got to see some growth in some different areas. I thought that our front office did a phenomenal job of adding to the roster in a lot of different ways, accumulating more assets through trades. But I love the resilience of the group. I thought that, like you said, early on, we had some injuries. I thought the team was really committed to working at a higher level. The standards in the whole building, I thought just rose in the off season. And then for some guys to have injuries happen that they've already kind of experienced before, it would have been easy for a lot of people to just be like, Oh, here we go again, we're the Hornets. We're gonna have a bad year of injuries. I did. Yeah, because I was like, I'm excited. And I was like, All right, whatever. And you're like most and like, that's human nature and credit to our guys credit to our coaching staff, performance staff, everyone just continued to like lean into what we do even more and trust the process, trust the daily improvement mindset, trust in each other and like try to help build each other up. And then I thought of a sudden we hit the ground running. Once we got everybody back healthy. Every team talks about culture in every single sport. And it gets to the point, like I think when you're on the media side, you're like, Oh, cool, you know, culture first, right? Yeah, yeah. Are you gonna make sure it's going to put some sayings up around the facility and all these different things. But I was watching your exit interview kind of stuff that you were doing, at least like as the head coach, not the not the private stuff, obviously, but just talking to the media going, Hey, these guys said they wanted to get closer that they wanted to train together. And it felt like a real thing. So how do you in your second year when when you know what the goal is, but the actual execution of changing the belief that the team maybe doesn't have in themselves because of previous years, like what are real tangible things that you were able to do with this group collectively to get them to start believing in themselves? A big part of it was to keep talking to them about action is what really gets the job done. You know, like talk is cheap. And to your point, we all talk about culture. We all talk about we're going to do all these things we talk about we want to win. But what are the actual actions that you were taking to do those things? And like, that's part of controlling the controllables, like, Yeah, we can't determine what the outcomes are going to be. But we definitely can control like, did we prepare? Did you guys watch the film of the personnel tape that we sent out the night before? Or is that a challenge at times? At times it is, you know, I think that we all give give each other assignments to do and you trust that people are doing it. But I think that the guys actually like really locked in and committed the next day you come in and you're like, Hey, tell me about Ryan. And they're able to give you, okay, he has this tendency, they like to run these sets. Now you're like, Okay, now we're getting somewhere. And so I thought that our team just really was about showing this level of like, action and commitment to action. And they pushed each other. And I thought that it really just kind of helped us because, like you said, monsters are cool, buzzwords are cool, but like, you have to live it, you have to actually have the actions. Being the head coach, how different is it now being like a partner with the front office where it's, you know, like, I'm sure every now and then when your assistant coach at other stops, it's like, Hey, thanks for your input. But like, you know, how, how different was that role for you having having something where you're, you're really aligned with the group trying to figure out what you want as opposed to just a guy on the staff. Yeah, it was definitely different. But it was a lot of fun. From the standpoint of like you said, like now your words have some weight, you're brought into a couple other meetings that you probably wouldn't have been privy to before. But it's a lot of fun because I got to do it with a guy in Jeff Peterson that I respect as a, as a person and as a boss almost. And I think that the way that we see how a team can be successful, how we can have sustained success within an organization is very similar. Does he have a different viewpoint, maybe of how you get there than I do at times? Yes. But it's great to be able to sit down and have a differing of opinions or have the same opinion, and then be able to go execute it together and be so aligned I think that our ownership group is the same way. Like I get to work with a front office and an ownership group that we can have healthy conversations, healthy debates, all knowing that we're working towards one ultimate goal. And that's to try to bring championships to Charlotte. For an example, I go back to last year's draft with a high pick. It's loaded at the top. I mean, I'm sure you're not going to sit here and tell me like, actually, I wanted somebody else. Let me take an Ipple, but when they're going like, Hey, this is maybe the way we're leaning. And this is what we think like a con can do with your team. Are you trying to figure out like, Okay, here's what I'm seeing is somebody, you know, they grew up playing and his coach in a bunch of different spots. Like how collaborative is that kind of decision? It's extremely collaborative. And that's the best organizations that I've been a part of, they have that. And so, you know, when I was in Atlanta, coach bud was able to have a good relationship with West Kilts, Wilcox at that point. And then when we went to Milwaukee, it was John and bud, and then seeing Boston and Joe and Brad being able to work together. That's how you, I think, effectively put together championship teams, like you have to have that dialogue. And so, and they have and Jeff and his group do a really good job of, you know, running the numbers and understanding the salary cap and what pieces fit together. And then I think from a coaching perspective, we can talk about the day to day. And you know, these personalities get a well, get along well together on the corridor, these type of attributes kind of help us defensively or offensively. And so as we went through that draft process, it was good to say, Hey, this is where we see our team right now. This is what we saw day to day, at practice, during games, what we struggled with, what we're good at, and then what players best going to help not only our environment, but also the on-court product. And I think we were able to figure that out at a pretty high level with all four rookies being really impactful between Liam, Khan, Ryan and Sion. Yeah, that's the other part of this where it's like, Hey, do I like their depth all of a sudden? Like when you turn it around, you're going, Okay, they're actually a lot of fun to watch, but we'll see. And then I'm going, Man, they're like asking a lot of fault-printer. They're asking a lot of Sion coming here, like being a defensive guy where it's like, Hey, you know, I know you had the ball in your hands a ton, but there's just other guys and you're going to have to accept this role pretty quickly. And I thought that stuff was incredibly impressive. But was there any moment with Kanipple where you went, Okay, I knew he was going to be good, but this is ridiculous how quickly he's found a way to contribute. Yes, no, he was going to be good when he had his draft workout. There was just this like level of seriousness with him. I think I even walked over at one point to say something to him during a drill. And I kind of like made a joke and he looked at me like, This isn't funny. Like I'm here to work. I'm here to get drafted. I kind of hadn't been drafted yet. And he's like, Yeah, coach, I kind of see what you're saying. But like, he just had this look of like, I'm not, I'm not joking. And I was like, I like this guy. Like, you can coach him hard. You can kind of like say what you need to say. And he can get the message without getting too emotional, which I thought was pretty cool. He's just even keel. And I felt that during the season, all of a sudden, like he just doesn't back down from anybody. He's not afraid of a moment. I think we saw it a little bit at Duke where he can he can be the guy that can play off a flag. And then all of a sudden flag goes down and he can be the guy and dominate the ball and play with the ball. And so, you know, mellows on the court, Brandon's on the court, he can play with them, but then they get hurt. He can all of a sudden step up and be the guy. And so he's so effective in a lot of different ways. And he picks things up so quickly. You know, how people are guarding them or watching Donovan Mitchell all of a sudden do his little high pickup and get fouled. Now Khan's trying to do the high pickup and he gets fouled. And it's fun to watch him play the game and how he approaches every day. I couldn't believe the way he saw the game at that age. And I think you just nailed it because my favorite part of him is like, all right, pick whatever other four you want, he'll figure out a way to fit in with the other four. It doesn't matter. Like, any combination of the other four guys, he'll find a way to impact it. It's a fact. And that's where when you can find guys that want to, like you said, the whole rookie class and some of the players that obviously we already had on the roster and inherited, they all, when they say they want to win, you have to find other ways to impact the game and how to win. And like, they're all figuring out what is my role to try to help impact that day's game or this situation. Yeah. I think maybe the only concern you would have with Khan is that he started becoming a media darling. Were you afraid he was going to be on first take like during the season? No fears of that at all. I mean, I think that you got to talk to him a little bit. I did. Media is not his thing. He is definitely a more reserved person, but you can get out some pretty good moments from him. Was there part of the scattering report that if he wasn't playing enough that a parent might call? Oh, never. No, never that type of fear or worry. Does that happen? That must happen. Like you think if it happens in college, you're like, do you realize how young some of these guys are in the NBA when you're the head coach? It's like, this isn't Little League baseball, but can my kid get more shots? I mean, I'm not asking for a specific example. No, no, I don't need and I don't have any like, luckily, never have had a lucky time. I've not had a parent call. I will say post game when you're walking through hallways or something you run by, people think you get to give you looks like, Oh, okay. Or, you know, the snide comment of the, Yeah, coach, you did a good job. My kid could have done more or whatever, but like, nothing like dead on like, I need to come sit down in your office to try to lobby for my my kid to play more. All right. Well, that's good. I think I think it's because you have a good group there. All right. I'm not a guy that will pretend I haven't said other things about players because you're sitting next to me here. I've had a hard time with Lamello. Okay. I've had a hard time. I understand he is insanely talented. And when you're that big with that kind of vision with the high pick and roll that you're going to be running as like a default thing, when it's right, it can be beautiful with him. And then when he's surrounded with better players, like I sort of get it. But there's also these moments where I'm like, I'm not sure what's going on. And it's really interesting because like, I was watching you last year. And I was like, I wonder new coach coming in, he's kind of the man, he's the face of the franchise, but I don't love all the habits. There was a game against Brooklyn at Brooklyn last year. You were doing that. My mind's already going back there. So is this the game Treyman dunked? Yeah, but it was the close game. But I thought the most interesting thing, and it was really, it was only like a couple of months into the regular season, I think it was like 14 games in or something. I started tracking like, Mellow and the substitutions, like you took them out in the fourth, and then I think you had eight or nine more substitutions and you never put them back into like a one point game. And I was like, uh-oh, not on your behalf. But I was like, is this hard coaching? Is this, hey, I'm the new guy, and that you have to break some of these habits? Like, look, he's your guy, and you're going to back your guy. But take me through like understanding that evolution of what it takes to coach him, and then get this kind of season out of him where it felt like it was the most engaged, because obviously the stakes were higher too. Because I think for me just sitting at home, there's so much I wouldn't understand about what it's like to coach someone. Yeah. Who's that? Who's that specific? Yeah, he's so special and good observation by you. And as you could tell, that's my guy. Like you all of a sudden said Mellow and I had to adjust my seat. I kind of wanted to get closer to you. Like what's it like to say about my man? Get real fired up. Select only your chest and paw. But no, it's such a joy to get to coach him, because he's always had this winning spirit to him or this winning mindset or wanting to impact winning and win at a higher level. And so he's always said that to me from day one that I've gotten here. And so the conversation has been, well, then I'm going to coach you that way. I'm going to coach you as hard as I have to to be able to get out the most out of you, because you're one of our leaders. You're one of our best players. The guys are going to follow what you do. And part of what I have to let you do is I got to let you be you, because being you is great. And like he's a magician of what he can do, especially on the offensive end and how he can play make and how much he kind of elevates everybody else's game, just with like what he's able to bring to a game. But I also need you to be engaged defensively. And I think that year one, he took on that challenge. And the mindset for me and for him and our relationship was, how do we just get you to play both sides of the ball and like set a standard like less, there's an expectation, there's a standard of how hard I want you to play on both ends. And, you know, in that particular game, whether it's Mello, whether it's any other player on our team, if you're not meeting the standards, then you have to earn to be on the court. And if you haven't earned that opportunity, you won't play. And it's one of those moments though, where I think he took it in stride. Every there's been plenty of other players that have had very similar experiences at the end of the game. If they're not producing at the level at which we all hold ourselves to, where they don't play. And his response wasn't to be combative or be upset. It was, now I got to be better the next game. And I think that we've just seen him take a whole another step this year. And like number one is defensive engagement, all the deflections, all the, he had a couple occupy second contest is what we call it, where somebody's showing their hands, he comes by and blocks a shot and his individual defense. And he won, we do an internal tracking of defensive metrics. He won defensive player of the month for us this season as well. And then off, which month was that? It was, it was March. It was March. It was March. And so like a long, that, that when we were playing really, really well, you know, go February, March and his activity was great. And the team was definitely a little bit up in arms. We had a tight race the last couple months of the season of who won defensive player of the month. And he pulled it out. But also offensively, I think his willingness at times to trust his teammates, teammates went to a whole another level playing off the ball, his shot selection, I thought really changed and his shot distribution became different. And he was able to get some more catch and shoot threes and stuff like that. So long-winded answer. But there was just so much growth I saw from him from year one to year two. And a lot of it was, it was already in him again, to want to be a winning player. And it was my job and our whole coaching staff's job to just continue to hold him to the standards that he wanted to be at. Do you think it was because of the summer league run you had with the Spurs 20 years ago that they were like, Hey, how many guys in the team know that you played summer league? Oh, they know a couple of them. Either they've looked by themselves or I might have had a comment here or there where, you know, I've said something. One day, actually, I will, I remember this, the guys are warming up, they're doing their little dynamic warm up and we were in San Antonio. And the banners are up there. And one of them was during the year I went to training camp with the team. And so I think I was standing next to Con Brandon Mello might have been right there. And I said, Do you think I get credit for that banner right there since I went to training camp with the Spurs and played summer league with them? And they just kind of started laughing and they were like, you definitely don't get any credit for that. No ring, no credit. No one's bringing you back for the celebration of that championship. Do you remember who coached you? Yes, summer league was coached by coach Mike Wodenholzer, which is why pretty much like that started our relationship. And he's the first guy that hired you. Yes. So you were that impressive as a basketball mind as a summer league player that then he hired you what, like 12 years later? Yes. I think it was just my professionalism. It wasn't anything about my mind or anything. It was just he showed up on time, he played really hard. He hasn't gone missing. That's what it was. Who's your favorite player that might not be an obvious one of someone that you coached as an assistant? So you can't pick any hornets and go back the last couple of years. Maybe somebody that would surprise us as an answer. Oh, surprise. I mean, the obvious ones are Chris and man. Okay, Dante, like all these guys, like everybody already knows. One guy for me that I thought actually taught me a ton of stuff and I got to work with a good mouth, Shelvin Mack. His like loved him in college. Great college player, but like his professionalism and how we approach the game. Maximizing possessions. I used to kind of love the way he played. Like he maximized everything that he could give to the game too. Because I was kind of like, man, I hope this guy makes it. That's so much I liked him in college. That's such a great answer. And he had a heck of a journey. And he just he knew how to build relationship from the guys at the best players on the team to the guys that were at the end of the bench. He went from Washington to this place. And so he he he understood the journey and what it takes to actually be successful and how to stay in the league. And he was a smart basketball mind. So I always enjoyed working with him. That's great. There's something that I remember like another team talking to me about with Miami. And they go, look at Miami and this development at the NBA level, like look at all these guys that they kind of bring in. You're like, who's this guy? The next thing you know, he's like playing real rotation minutes. You were in Boston, where I think Boston kind of pivoted to emphasizing some of that stuff. And you start looking around being like, Hey, this is a championship caliber roster when it's healthy, but also like, look how good they're doing on the margins. How do you see development under your like responsibilities and also the staff's responsibility? Because I still feel like that's that's a part that's missing for a lot of teams in the NBA is like, you get the player, you get him into camp is like, we'll see if he survives or not. And I think you guys have shown just in one year how quickly you're developing some of your guys that you're bringing in. Yeah. Number one credit goes to like front office again. Jeff and his group identifying the right people to come into our environment, identifying the right talent that we think can still grow. And so like player development is like the backbone of our culture, I would say. It's a big part of what we want to do as a staff members, like we're focused on trying to help our staff continue to grow in a lot of different ways too, but definitely the players. And so as soon as they come on board, we've put together a little bit of an onboarding process. We've given the players a pod where they feel like they're getting a holistic view and plan for how they can maximize their career that year. And I think that we just do a great job of sticking with it. And it's like the level of communication and again, alignment and collaboration has to go into it is huge. And I think that we've been able to put together some good plans to help guys like Musa Diabata come into our system and simplify his game a little bit while also trying to add some layers to it and putting him in the right positions. And so credit to them, credit to the coaching staff, I think, for being able to look at players and say, okay, this is what he does really well. Let's keep leaning into that. And like this is the one part of the game, I think just this year that we can add and not trying to add four, five, six different things for some of our roleplayers. It's how do we make him a better connector? How can he impact us immediately? And then like step by step, you know, trust the process, you'll add some layers to their game. All right, final thought on this one, because you turn things around and then the Orlando playing game happens, right? Okay. Why are you taking me back there? Well, but I think there's, well, there'll be a bad part and it'll be good. Okay, how about that? I thought they were so mad. And it just you were the next team they were going to play and play start of it. I was like, oh my god. Is there anything to the lesson? Because, you know, the Miami game was just tough, right? Tough game, pull it out. The lesson to like, hey, this group hasn't really experienced what that next level and it wasn't like it was a first round series. So you got like six or seven of these games, but as disappointing as it is to know like, hey, people are going to be coming for you now. You had this great second half, but just a little bit of some just some sort of part where the team will come in next year going like, hey, there is another level to this of intensity that maybe we got a few minutes of in those two games. We definitely learned that lesson like the intensity, the physicality, the level of information that you have to go through for that type of game, because it almost does feel like a playoff game. And you got to be able to adjust really quickly, because you don't have a seven game series to say, hey, let's keep this in our back pocket and throw it out there in game two. You got to be able to like react quickly. And so I thought our group got a great experience from that. It's unfortunate that it had to be with that type of point differential. But I think that honestly, it was so bad in the beginning that I was like, oh, like, and I felt like Orlando was still so mad about the Philly game that and then we see they go to seven with the one seed. So maybe you guys can collectively like, oh, hey, it was still actually a really talented team that was so mad. We were just the next guys. But but the other part, like you just said, I think that we learned especially at the end of the season, we played a bunch of a playoff teams at the end of the day, like we were trying to compete for seeding, but we were going up against the likes of Philly and Boston on the road and New York, obviously, they didn't play their games, their players, the last game of the season. But when you have to do it back to back to back nights, it almost gave us like a playoff feel. And so it was a really good experience for us. And as I try to tell the group, we got to be proud of what we accomplished this year. But we also got to be pissed how we ended that season to not get to where we ultimately know that we could have gotten to was a good learning lesson for us. And it should be fueling us for the whole offseason. People rave about you. And you know, I mean, it's one of the nicest things you can hear from other teams is like, hey, Charlotte's doing some really smart stuff. And people were talking about you as an assistant. And to see you have the success in your second year, it actually makes a lot of sense the way everybody's been talking about the Hornets. And we can't wait to watch you play Hoops again. So thanks, man. Well, thank you for having me. And it's a huge testament to the people around me. I can't do it all by myself. Stell Blue Coffee's new can lattes are here crafted with 100% Colombian coffee. Each can is a good source of protein and comes in two smooth flavors, espresso, cafe mocha and espresso, sweet cream. And whether you're braving your morning commute or chasing your pup, Stella Blue cans are for those always on the go. And for those who care, Stella Blue is more than just great coffee. It's about giving back. 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In Word, Copilot helps turn scattered notes into a first draft. In Excel, it generates insights from your data and in Outlook, it cuts through the noise to get you up to speed faster. The apps you know, go further with Copilot. Learn more at m365copilot.com slash work. Okay. The gang's all here. Back at our home bases. Thank you to everybody for the Chicago shows. Great feedback on that one. So we get some people sneaking the old life advice box in between tanking solution emails, which again, we do not accept tanking solution emails and life advice. But thank you for those that reached out about some of the front office stuff, something I always loved doing. So anyway, we'll probably do that again next year. Good to see everybody. How was everyone? Good to be home. You look tired. That was like an exhaust. We get a little magic here from you today. Oh yeah. Like this. I understand it. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. It's good stuff. I don't know if you're going to do deadlifts or breastfeed. What? Just an oversized T. Oh man. Yeah. My guys hooked me up. Is that you like just so heavy weight? Solidarity behind you all mostly getting another shot? You know, I put this shirt on today. I haven't worn it. It's really nice. Like 90 degrees in the Northeast today. Yeah. Short sleeve shirts are out and tobacco country. I put it on and I was like, our pistons fans. Cause I think this is like some sort of like weird pay. Like you guys are a lot. You know, it's like the guy showed up to the funeral, you know, just to make sure my guy was dead. I have no beef with pistons fans, but no, this is just like, I don't know. I just put the shirt on. I like the shirt. It's hot today. Short sleeves. Just like the shirt, man. It's a great answer. You know, you get these guys giving you the what for the business. Like, hey, what's with the shirt? Be like, Hey, I just like the shirt. Is that all right? Just kind of a six shirt real quick. I feel this. Oh, wow. What is that? A frog that Oscar the grouch out of the trash can? First off, it's stuff the magic dragon. Okay. Sorry. Let's get that right. Sorry. One of the best mascot, the best mascot in the NBA. And it's actually a play on Taylor Swift's 1989 album cover. So we'll, we'll cross over. Deep cut. You would even say maybe listen to those who get it, get it. I knew I'd have to explain it to you guys, but if I'm wearing this out, I don't think I'll have to explain it. I think I'm going to have to do a lot of explaining G units, reissuing the rebox, reissuing the G unit sneakers. So I think I might have to do some explaining soon. Once those, once those hit the old crib, but they really did look awesome. If you can just remember back in the day. So I'm excited for that. I had some G and a key ready to explain them. I didn't. That a dream. I was playing ping pong with 50 cent last night. So that's fucking cool. How did you win? I think I, he beat me and he was, he was really giving it to me. And then I was winning the rematch and then I woke up. So I don't know what that means. Dude, I wouldn't be on my way to go back to sleep tonight. That'd be off. Finish up. Yeah. Maybe we'll play again in bed early. Man, there's a lot of messaging going on in that t-shirt. Kyle, like I'm just sitting there like, I don't need any explanation whatsoever when it's speed club Tommy Bahama in the background. I don't know. Did you sign a deal? Oh, yeah. Bahama and none of us know. What's, what's going on with you right now? No, I just, you know, I don't really have any Nick's gear and I just wanted to have something behind me and, you know, I threw the Tommy's up and I think they, I think they work. I think they work well. I love it. Chilling me softly on my left and the, the Paradise Marlin speed club. So it just feels like the vibe in the 90s today. So I got to give it up to Tommy Bahama because he is, he is stuck around in a way that I did not think it would happen. I agree. You know, because some people were like, do I go on a diet? It's like, nope. And you can wear the same size shirt you want. It just will be different. It's sort of you can just pick a size. It's not even, and it's just going to work. You're going to be fine. And then you're going to go on vacations and you're good. Good. You can gain 20, lose 20. Doesn't matter. Yeah. It's actually brilliant. No, I think about it. Huge thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Unbelievable. All right. So congrats to Mr. Bahama. All right. We get a couple emails here. This one is pretty straightforward. 26 year old male, 6'2", 170. No notable gym stats, but I did run a 50 mile ultra marathon in 11 hours. I didn't run like half a day. No. I can't. But like, if you say no gym stats, but here's something for you. Here's the most impressive thing anyone's ever said about cats. Right. I haven't dated a lot, but Hillary Duff dumped her husband for me. You know, and you're like, well, no, I'm just trying to think of like the more cool things. Yeah. Okay. She's back too now. She's been back in a big way. Don't even, I don't think she ever left. She's definitely back. Yeah. I'll just leave it at that. Good for her. Try to get her on the pod. NBA comp Dante DiVincenzo. I live in a small mountain West town where the main nightlife scene is a swing dance. It's swing dancing at one of the two local bars. And for the listeners who may be unfamiliar, swing dancing is a partner dance where you spin your partner around the floor, different from line or square dancing. Last night I took my girlfriend out dancing and after one song, a woman probably in her eighties that I've never seen before approached my girlfriend and me and said, can I tell you something? You're ruining the dance floor for everyone else. You bumped into me while dancing. I'm completely caught off guard by her tone and respond with a quote, sorry, we didn't mean to, which she responds, I know you didn't mean to, but you're ruining it for everyone else. You need to learn to keep your elbows in. Is she, I don't know. Then she walked away. It's like a Lou Dork situation. Yeah, right. He's initiating all the contact. The dance floor is about the size of a pickleball court with around 12 couples dancing. So it was moderately crowded. It's normal for couples to occasionally bump into each other and my girlfriend and I aren't reckless dancers. Wow. This is way over my head. All this stuff. The whole interaction didn't sit right with me. So I brought my girl back out to the dance to the next song shortly after that song is the old woman walked by our table. I asked, Hey, how do we do that time? Nice. Her tone completely shifted from earlier as she sweetly replied, Oh, so much better. I'm so proud of you guys. All right. I wasn't content to leave it there. So I passive aggressively added on quote, well, good, because I wouldn't want to ruin the dance floor for everyone. I don't want to ruin it for everyone else. We are just trying. We just are trying to have fun. The woman seeming to get at that point said quote, yeah, me too, and walked away. Hmm. You went back a second time. Huh, man? The thing I'm left wondering is, am I an asshole for feeling the need to put an 80 something year old woman in her place? Should I have just left it alone and my girlfriend and I could have laughed at the initial interaction later on or did this woman, despite her age need to be reminded that age doesn't give you a pass to be combative at a public space. Also, what was an 80 year old woman doing out of the bar? Hey man, living life. Dude, that's crazy. Right? That's crazy. Yeah. Don't, you're 26. So I get why you're saying it right now, but when you're older, you're gonna be so happy for that lady. You're gonna be like, she's awesome. All right. So back off. Taking notes. That's what she's drinking. That's keeping you out at 80. It's like, all right, maybe it's time to try Rome. I don't know. But I make sure Maude has only two Manhattan's. That's a great old name. I think I was wondering, was I wrong for feeling the need to push back on an 80 year old woman? Should I just let it go and laugh at the first interaction later with my girlfriend? Was she out of line enough that her age shouldn't excuse her for being reminded that a bar is a shared space, not her living room. Thanks, big fan of the pod out here in the mountain west. I think there's two schools of thought. Like if you're saying, like, listen, nobody's special, everyone, you know, sometimes needs a taste of their own medicine. Like I couldn't really argue with you if you, if you, on the merits of that me personally, I think old folks just get a pass and they say stuff like this. Like if you have a, well, in certain situations, I think, and this is a, this is a mildly one. And you bump into a lady who's in her 80s. I mean, you don't know what's going on with bone density and stuff. She could be a real trouble. So calcium's always been an issue. So, you know, that, and that aside, like just older people have like less of a filter, like they'll just be like, why did you get all those tattoos? Like, you know what I mean? They'll be like, why would you do that to yourself? They're like, Oh yeah, that's an interesting hair. Like they just, they just say stuff like that. So that's like par for the course. That's something I wouldn't even register as like, yeah, I need to correct, I need to right this wrong. But that's me. I do think they're two schools of thought. And I certainly live and let live and shout out to the old folks. I respect my elders. I think it's important. I actually don't like the give old people a pass thing. Because I think old people like think that they just get a pass for everything because they're old. Like I'm not going to go, I'm not, oh, you're beating up old people. Like they'll get me wrong. But they just, they do think they can say whatever they want. And I'll probably be that way some way too. So like maybe you can call me hypocritical. It's fine. But like, I do think it's okay to like, at least push back a little bit. Like, you don't get this, you don't get this isn't like Disney world all the time for you. You don't could do whatever you want. So I don't know, were you a problem? Or was she just like, I guess I would have to take some self inventory? Like were you kind of being a little aggressive to other people giving you the eye? Or she just like totally, it's just totally a one off and she's coming up here because you're like maybe entroaching on her space a little bit. But I don't, I think old people need to be put and check a little bit more because they have a lot of freedoms that they take. And I understand what he's saying. No, again, not beating up any old people in public, but like you can talk back to an old person if it is correct. Here's the thing though, for this situation, if she was like, Hey, you were talking too loud and you ruined my dinner, maybe there's something, but there was a physical bump and you know, we went over the bones and the calcium stuff already, even if that's a little bit of a joke. Like if there is a physical bump there, some people are allowed to be a little bit more rattled than others. And I think especially when they're older, there's just a couple points in her department there where it's like, listen, do I think she's overreacting? Yes. But I think because this like it was a physical accident, you know, sometimes a strong gust of wind will just blow an old woman over. It's a fact I've seen it. So like, you know, if it's an elbow problem, you know, I think she might, if she's just, maybe she's just a little rattled and I just, I'd give her a little grace there. But I understand what you're saying. If it's just like a problem in a grocery line and she's like, well, you should just let me go in front of you. Like I understand that if you're like, you know what, I got time today. But for something like this, I would have probably deferred. I actually liked his, how'd we do that time? And I would have left it there. That like what Ryan says, like, oh, you really went back, man. But you know, whatever, I think if you're of that mind, I got, don't really have anything to refute it. I, the only issue I has, the went back the second time. Yeah. It was actually a great line by him on round one. Yeah. And then she seemed to be really nice and said it like in a sweet voice. And I think that should have disarmed you enough. Because you're probably not wrong. And you're right. Like, there's certain times where if it's an old person in a spot, and you just try to think of like, your grandmother, or depending on how old you are, like your mother, and then you go, like, how upset would I be if somebody were like giving my grandmother a mother a hard time, you know, because whatever kind of patients you need with somebody a little bit older, it's not like every single old person is completely impatient, because that's not, that's not fair either. But I do think like to Sirie's point, like there should be a little bit of grace when you're a lot younger, where you just go like, okay, you know, like, let's see where this goes. And she was probably out of line. You probably did bump into her. She's probably going to go a little over the top because she doesn't expect to get elbowed. But at the same time, you're out there dancing at 80 years old. So like, you know, like, you know, she could be fouling people left and right. So she says something because, you know, older people are just going to let it fly sometimes. But you're right. Like to Sirie's other thing is that it doesn't just mean chaos. And this is the thing that I brought up at the gym is that something happens, like once guys turn 70, and they just are like, hey, you know, you're in the locker and you just like, it's always like auto like say you're at the gym locker, and you're opening up your locker and you were there first, their locker could be the one right next to you. And they're going to get some naked old man thigh on your ship. Because then you just go, Hey, is there any way like, I'm not going to live here, let me get my stuff. It's going to take less than two minutes. Like, give me a little space, man. And your spouse is shut up Persian. Yeah, right. And it's just no, and then when they take your equipment, like they look at you going like, eh, let's see, see if you say anything to me. Or you're not going to, we know, I know you're not going to do anything. So I can say whatever I want. Yeah. Yeah, right. So there's a bunch of people out there just ruining the day today because they know they're kind of getting away with it. I don't know that she crossed over into that. And the fact that you even sent us an email, like, I'm not going to give you a hard time about it. You probably could have just not gone back for seconds on this one. Yeah. I think there's a difference between difficult and nasty. And this was more of a difficult elder and a nasty elder. I think I'd maybe be thinking about what could I do to get my point across. But if you're just being difficult, yeah, hey, two plus two equals five. Good for you. All right. 22. Uh-oh. Six one. We got a lot of lonely hearts club guys right around. Everybody's out of college right now. You're freaking out about the summer. We'll see if it works out. Dudes are worried. We get so many of these emails right around graduation time or one year college year ends. 22, six one, one 95, lift three, four times a week. Max bench, three 15 a year and a half ago. Damn, dude. That's great. Have not maxed out since no squats. I said, I'm a member of the bum knee club. Uh, comp Nick Collison, massive blue guy. He and I, I'm graduating, uh, this year at a big 12 school in the Great Plains. While at the bars a couple weeks ago, I reconnected with my ex's best friend. We spent the night together and a few more after that. Hmm. All right. Already problematic. But look, you get those degrees and hands, walked with that role. Anything's possible. Right. Um, we had a date scheduled for the week. She's no longer friendly with my ex. So I did not think that'd be an issue after all. We only dated for two months over a year ago. I'm graduating this year, but I plan to get my masters most likely at the same university or surrounding one. And she's currently in her master's program at the same university. The time I've spent with her, I felt a real connection, something I've really struggled to find recently. I think I know what that feels like. And she seemed to be reciprocating the same feelings. I'm good at knowing when someone is interested and when they are not. And I never picked up any negative signals from her. Tomorrow was supposed to be our first date. And I don't know where I get a text saying she does not think she's ready to continue forward. This is after about a week of consistent texting to the point where she's apologizing if she did not respond for a couple hours. She stated she was not ready to continue because of her getting out of a previous relationship not long ago. She had mentioned something about this at one point, the first time we spent time together, but then changed her mind after I asked her out again in the morning. I followed up by asking if there would be a later time when she would want to try again, or would it not be worth my time? She responded by saying yes and don't hesitate to come talk to me at the bars. I'll still be out. Obviously. I'm not really working on me, but... Yeah, right. It doesn't mean I'm staying home. A few questions. Do you guys think she's feeling the same way I feel and truly is just not ready for something serious yet? Or do you think this is an easy excuse to no longer see me? Is it possible she was only interested in me to get back at her best friend because they had a messy end to their friendship and the satisfaction of her ventures worn off? If I try to pursue this again and ask her out, how long would be a good time to wait before attempting again? I believe she broke up with her ex about a month and a half ago. Also, some added context. She's very attractive, probably a nine or a 10. I'm a solid eight, but I played guitar for her. Well, now we have the guitar part. What a closer. I think it's tough. She's definitely come back if you play guitar, man. Don't worry about it. Yeah. Learn some new songs. I think it's tough because a lot of time... I don't know if it's always been this way. Maybe Ryan could speak to that, but I feel like a lot of times people will just say the easiest thing to get out of whatever this is heading towards. You know what I mean? Like, even if it would be like, I'm really not interested in you, man. There's like some other kinds of excuses and it seems like a solid one. It's just like, I'm just not ready right now. And it's just not free. What I really mean is I'm not doing this with you. So I don't know. This could be totally the truth, but I think it's a much easier way of getting out of things when you don't want to hurt somebody's feelings when it's actually probably doing a little more damage in the long term because you're thinking of what the getback is. So I'm not saying that's what it is, but I think it's tough to kind of suss that out these days. I don't know if it was that way before or if people were a little more direct back in the day. What do you think about that? I think all of it's the same, to be honest with you. I really do. I can go ahead and say that, Surya. There's just new methods of how you could potentially do it. I would say this is probably like 80, 20. This is just an excuse because she doesn't really want to hang out with you anymore. I mean, for whatever reason, it could be any of the reasons that you laid out. I don't think it's like a zero though. I think, yeah, all right. We talked about the best thing. I don't think it's a zero at all. Yeah. Hang around the hoop. Maybe you do sear out. Then it gives you an excuse to text her again and just say, hey, it's been some time, but thinking about you, you want to grab drinks or something another time? Grab dinner. I wouldn't aggressively be the guy who's texting her and being around because clearly that's not what she wants right now, but I think just play it kind of cool. Give us some time. It's not a hard no. I think it's an uphill climb and there might just be the thing where it's like, hey, actually she's just doing this because she doesn't want to have any beef with any of that sort of friend group, even if she's not friends with your ex anymore. So hang around the hoop. I think would be the solution and you never know what happens. The other thing I was thinking is maybe a formal date is some weird line in the sand for her where it's like, wow, that shit just got real. It'd be cool to run into you and go do something, but a formal date, time and place, great call. It's almost like, hey, ask a dude that you want to be your friend to do the first thing. It's probably fine, but you could totally understand like, he's like, well, dude, I mean, we're just, you're a cool dude. Like I'm not sure if I want to fucking set up a bowling thing a week from now or whatever. I think maybe that's just like one step too far. She's like, this shit got a little real. It's a chaotic time for youngsters. May. May is very chaotic. It's like, well, if I still date this person after colleges, I mean, I have to marry them. No. This person that I like, they're moving to Atlanta and I'm living in Chicago. How do I make this work? You've been in the kind of the stable fake make believe world for a little while. And then now it's like, you're going to pretend it's way more real than it really is. And it seems like our guy's a thinker, maybe an overthinker, a little bit. You're throwing a bunch of different theories out there. Could it be because the revenge factor is worn off? Could it be, look, there was some messy crossfire here. Yeah, the origin story of this, right? But I always kind of like fall back to the simplest rule that everybody seems to ignore all the time is like, if somebody wants to hang out with you, they will hang out with you. And if they don't want to hang out with you, guess what they do? They don't hang out with you. So I think the move here is to not overthink this, not tell her how much you like her, not worry about all these different dynamics that all might be completely weird, because it could just be as simple as her going like, hey, I don't know, like if I lock up with this guy now, and we're actually both staying in the same area, then that means that like all of a sudden this guy's my boyfriend and don't put a cap on my summer. Yeah, right. Like, I was going to go to, I was going to go to the Hampton single. Although I think I would pick a different area from this read. I don't know what it would be. Milwaukee. It could work the other way too, right? Though, like, the more time, the less like weird she'll feel about it. True. But I think to the point of you getting to go in now with zero expectations, and it sucks because you feel a connection with her that you haven't felt before. So like, you're going to be fighting that a little bit, you can be thinking about her, you're going to be trying to like read all these different moves, like I get that part of it. But what you need to do is kind of lower the expectations of what this can be. And then you're less likely to like fuck it up. You know, you're going to see her out. It's not going to be the formal date thing, which I think was a really good point by Kyle, where it's like, okay, this now thing feels real. So if it turns into a casual hangout from time to time, because clearly she liked you enough to hang out with you unless something happened or, you know, she just didn't feel like she had any chemistry with you. But I think if you're just kind of around and you're still friendly, and there is a little history there, that there's a way that you'll still kind of get this, maybe the casual thing isn't good enough for you right now, but you probably take that over absolutely nothing. So it sounds like she had a bit of a freak out on like, maybe she overthought like what's the end game here at a time that again is very tough. It's very tough navigating these relationships when you're this age and you're in college and that dreaded May date rolls around and you're like, what is actually happening here? And I would tell you collectively, it's usually a massive waste of time, but you don't know any better because you're like 21 22. Maybe try to catch her at a karaoke bar or a karaoke night and just ready to have that one belted out just be like, so realize it was a total mistake. You're the man. Well, Uncle Cracker, follow me subliminal messaging. I don't know something. Whoa. Be ready. I don't remember what MTV show it was, but there was some tryout thing like some version of American Idol, which I think was before even American Idol and some kid who looked like he was allowed to go to like FloraBama once. It was the greatest weekend of his life and he came out and they were like, who are you going to sing? It was like, Uncle Cracker. And I was like, I want that clip so bad because the, I mean, he wasn't great. Then he's dressed exactly how you think he is. And the judges were like, whoa, I think he had a fish hook in his hat. The only reason that with the only time he doesn't dip is when he was singing for the show. Put his bottle right behind the stage, right? I'll just never hear Uncle Cracker and think of anything other than that kid. All right, man. That'll do it for the show today. Thanks to Kevin, thanks to Tom, thanks to Sury, thanks to Kyle, the Ryan Rosillo show of our school sports.