Fixing Ben & Jerry's After the Meltdown

Hey, I'm Elizabeth Reese and I'm Marjorie Punnett. We host a podcast. It's called Best to the Nest. If you want to bring love, balance, and joy to your home, relationships, or parenting, listen, we do too. We want your home to be your favorite place to be. We bring in experts to guide us along the way. We also chat about pop culture and how it plays in our lives. So learn and laugh along with us as you bring your best to your nest. Best to the nest, the podcast that brings you home. Get it wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to We Fixed. You're welcome. The show where we take over companies, you come along for the ride. And we try to put them back better than we found them. OK, Melissa, Kedira. Today we're talking Ben and Jerry's. Because of the sent-in political opinions, things have gotten pretty steamed over there for an ice cream company. Relationships have grown frosty, and are led to the recent departure of co-founder Jerry Greenfield after 47 years. Goodbye, Jerry. We're going to talk about what happens when you part ways with a highly visible founder. What to do when that founder becomes a vocal critic and maybe even a liability? And whether a company can grow as big as Ben and Jerry's and stay both mission and profit driven, all of it. Then we're going to fix the situation and hand it back with a cherry on top. Kedira, Melissa, are we ready for this? That's too late. All right. Well, before we go forward, let's jump back in time for a sec. So Ben Cohen and Jerry Greenfield found embedded Jerry's in 1978 in a renovated gas station in Vermont. From the beginning, the brand was built around indulgent ice cream, fun flavors, and caused driven ideals of social responsibility. Over two decades, Ben and Jerry's became synonymous with progressive values, often standing up for causes like environmentalism, fair trade, and social justice. Of course, their grassroots success, AKA sales revenue, attracted corporate interest, and 2000 Ben and Jerry's was acquired by consumer goods giant Unilever for $326 million. Whoa. But amazingly, the founders, Ben and Jerry, struck a unique deal to preserve the company's independent voice on social issues under the new owner. So now you get a big conglomerate Unilever owning an ice cream company that wears its progressive heart on its tie-died sleeve. What could possibly go wrong? Well, like we said, Jerry just left, saying he could not in good conscience remain at Ben and Jerry's. He's accusing Unilever of erasing the very social mission that made the brand famous, and his exit has not been a fair well. It's been a very public break. In an open letter, he said that Unilever essentially removed any platform the company once had in support of peace, justice, and human rights and said that it's profoundly disappointing to come to the conclusion that that independence is gone. A spokesperson for Unilever said that while they are forever grateful to Jerry, they do not align with his perspective. In other words, thanks for the ice cream dude, but shut it. The company insists it will stay committed to Ben and Jerry's values of peace, love, and ice cream with or without the founders on board. So Unilever is towing the company line as of right now Ben's staying put to exert his influence. Jerry's out there on the outside, speaking his mind, that's the scoop. So Kadeera, this situation has corporate responsibility written all over it. Where do we even start? Yeah, look, this is the, I think inevitable tension, right? That I think happens when you've got this mission led brand, I love mission led brands, but when they go mainstream, especially after acquisition. So, you know, just as you pointed out, like in the early days, the founder is the brand, it is the voice, right? Their values, their voice, their activism, it is what people are buying into, right? When they're buying that product. And for Ben and Jerry's, their whole identity was about activism and pushing boundaries and standing up for what they believed in without compromise. But as the business grows and, you know, as we see here, definitely around acquisition, all of that's gonna get tested because your social responsibility and your social impact values, it's no longer just about answering your conscience, right? When you're a part of a global corporation, everything, including how you're responding to the environment, how you're responding to communities, is getting filtered through risk management, shareholder expectations, right? Global market dynamics. You're now answering to a board. You're now answering to investors. Your compliance team is calling and emailing. So it can get messy really quick. I think the company now that has acquired this brand has the responsibility to navigate this complexity in a way that it just didn't before. And that's what we're saying. And when the founder unfortunately doesn't go along with it, even if their critique is grounded in truth and their truth in just what's happening around us in the world today, that tension and that conflict can start to feel like, a liability, just really honest. And so I think what has to happen in order for, and there are definitely examples out there of companies that thrive when there is that tension with founders or there might be some difference in the opinion of how things should move forward. But it really does require a company moving from, whether it's their social impact, their social responsibility, how they're gonna scale the product or the brand. They have to move from becoming founder dependent to values driven, right? And I'm not saying that's easy, it's hard. But it absolutely is necessary if a brand wants to survive and stay relevant beyond its origin story. Again, Ben and Jerry's has this amazing origin story, but it's a new day. It's a new day for the company. And so if they wanna evolve from being, you know, remember that company? Yeah. What was the name of that company? Right? So hey, here's who we are today, and we're gonna stay true and we're still gonna take some of that original origin story and bake that in, but it has to evolve and there's strategy around making that happen. So not impossible, hard yes, but not impossible. Well, I think we see that too much the other way where a company is very corporate and very profit driven. And then all of a sudden, their light goes on and they become all about social responsibility. And it happens, I guess, but we're seeing, you know, it happens probably more often. Some situation like this where there's a socially driven company that is all about mission and values and along with sales and profit and all that stuff. But that's for person for most what they stand for. And then they get acquired. That's more of a common scenario. And we're stuck in that, we'll call it a sticky situation right now where we're seeing those tensions play out. You have a company that, everything they stand for is like, it's at heart on their sleeve. And now they have to, you know, you become part of a known entity. You have to fall in line in a way. And it's, it's, no, we're, it's painful. We're all seeing it happen. Any painful. Yeah. And I think, Cadeira, you really highlighted this beautifully is that it's not necessarily just a founder that is in conflict with the kind of the corporate entity of the business. It's actually that this founder, the two founders created this entire company based on the social DNA, right, the social mission DNA, right? And so really I think there's a couple of things in Aaron, you were kind of touching on this as well, but you really need to acknowledge that this isn't just, you know, him leading. There's a lot more emotion in that, in that poll. So really what Unilever needs to do is not ignore it, acknowledge it, especially they need to openly validate that there is a true sense of loss and uncertainty and change is very hard, right? So they need to be candid with their teams, with their customers. The goal is really to make people feel like they're part of something in herd and prevent them from feeling like their loyalty to their founder was not valid, right? Like they have to stay loyal to Unilever and not to Ben and Jerry. So they really need to re-anchor to the mission and not the individual, which is could hear what you were saying, right? Like, unfortunately, they need to publicly and repeatedly recommit to the core social mission of Ben and Jerry's and the employees and the customers that are loyal to that. There was a similar type of reaction that was very negative at Pixar after John Lasseter's exit and they did the right thing by not trying to replace him but they empowered new leaders like Pete Doctor and refocused everyone on their core purpose which was telling great stories, right? So that's what I think they have to do in order to protect the brand, right? Is they need to go in almost double, you know, to address just the mass hole that is being left by this founder leaving? Because it's not like the founder, the cold plate incident or something like that where, you know, like, it's not like that because his DNA is what created this amazing brand and this ice cream, right? It was all about the social mission and cost. So, I'll agree. Absolutely. Yeah, Melissa, I like what you're saying and maybe I agree, but I'll be cynical for a minute. What do they have to do? Do they have to double down on the values or do they have enough of a global imprint and people who love the brand and are committed and have their buying habits, you know, you like chunky monkey. Just keep buying chunky monkey. Like, do we need the side of the carton to talk about mission driven values? Or are we okay without it? I'll just be a cynic for a sec. Well, I think a brand can exist without its founder but it also risks losing that authentic magic of what makes it different, right? So, if you think about another example of where the brand kind of lost it was, it's kind of heartbreaking as famous Amos cookies, right? When Wally Amos lost control of his own name and brand through the financially he needed to, you know, because he had kind of overextended himself and the company lived on. Sold and resold and became, you know, but it became a shell of what the original self was, right? You wanted famous Amos cookies for what they worked, right? It became more of a mass produced cookie that lost that homemade and sold that he had kind of embodied. So, I guess there's a cautionary tale to that, right? So, yes, there's the business aspect of it. And, you know, for years, it hasn't been the same Ben and Jerry's anyway. It's been under Unilever. But I think that to address his very critical letter to the company as he exited, I think it would make sense to double down on the social mission. Now, I understand that as a company, maybe they don't want to, right? But then what is the point of Ben and Jerry's, you know, being, you know, kind of the stand alone, I mean, that's one of the cool things about their ice cream, right? Like, is you've got that and you've got the really different kinds of things that they promote. So, in my mind, I don't think it's necessarily a bad, I don't think it's like a bad thing for Unilever to do that to double down on it. But I understand, Aaron, what you're saying is that, like, in a corporate environment, is it necessary? Right. But there's a lot of competition in ice cream. So that's the other thing. You know, when you see people with phones with crack screens and you think, whoops, they weren't careful. Well, that's something you can see on the outside. But what you can't see is how careful they're being with their online data. Because whenever someone goes online without ExpressVPN, it could mean trouble, like passwords and logins all out in the open. If a screen cracks, you can fix it. But once your personal data's out there, it's out there. You can protect your own data with ExpressVPN and feel great about it. ExpressVPN creates a secure encrypted tunnel between your device and the internet. You can use it on your phone, tablet and laptop at its lowest price ever with plans starting at around $0.12 a day. It matters to me that your data's protected. I love fixing problems, and this one's easy to solve. And it's rated number one by top tech reviewers like CNET and the Verge. Secure your online data today by visiting expressvpn.com-fixed. It's expresvpn.com-fixed to find out how you can get up to four extra months. Expressvpn.com-fixed. That's right. Yeah. I completely agree. It's like, do they have to? No, right? Like they can do what they want. They can evolve this brand, however they want to. I think that's where transparency, communication, all the things, we know that companies should be doing, especially once there's an acquisition. I think we also have to remember that customers, say, coders are expecting for the brand to evolve. The company was acquired for a reason, right? And it doesn't have to be negative reasons. But I completely agree with Melissa. I think it makes sense for them to double down. And I think the other thing that's going to be really important, I mean, again, just like you said, there's so many ice cream brands out there. And this is really what sets Ben and Jerry apart. And so I think they are still saying that they want to still hold true to that and live into that. It's just going to look different than what the founders originally had in mind. And so I think that means that they are going to have to look at this more than just treating the purpose and the social impact and social value of the ice cream that it's always carried and what its legacy has been beyond a brand story, beyond just a storytelling, but really started to think about how they can operationalize the mission. And so then, if they're able to look at this as how are we going to use our social impact and social responsibility connected to Ben and Jerry's as a business driver? And not just again, kind of like just kind of a fly by night, we're chasing the next shiny thing. Then I think that they have a real opportunity to continue on with the legacy around what separates this ice cream from the 25 other ice cream brands on the shelf in the freezer. And beyond that, I think they then remove themselves from being dependent on one voice or two voices in this case. But again, if they start to embed it in their strategy, if they embed it in the culture, if they embed it in their decision making, we can talk about frameworks later. Then we're starting to see that they're like, OK, we actually are tying the mission of this ice cream brand into how we're thinking about profit, how we're thinking about communities, how we're thinking about our stakeholders. So again, is it necessary? No, do they have to do it? No, they could go in a completely different direction with this ice cream brand. But again, it's like it's who the brand is. So while they don't have to completely lean into what the original founders were saying and doing, and again, we expect evolution, I think it benefits them tremendously to actually figure out how to lean in to what the ice cream brand has always been, but just bring it into the present day and think about what the future means. One we're speaking and they may think of something as well is that they could use this across their companies, across all of their brands. So what they could do is really double down on, for example, activist flavors, right, and cause marketing. And Erin, they could actually make limited batch flavors or whatever it might be, right? Sure. And have it go across their brands in like, this is the month for, okay, October's Grass Cancer Awareness or whatever it could be. So they could have an activist flavor that tied in to maybe one of their other brands that would be like a personal care brand or something like that, in which they're kind of aligning it all and saying, this is, we are deeply, deeply committed, these causes. And this is how you're going to see it and we're going to be using profits from this to help fund a cancer ward here in underserved community or whatever it might be, but like the ability to for them to actually kind of align it and have it woven into some of their other brands actually kind of elevates this whole idea that Ben and Jerry's was kind of the light house that started it all, right? And that would be really kind of a cool thing for them to do to show, you know, we're not just corporate. We're also about what's important and what's important to our communities that we serve as well as the communities within our company. I like that. I have my issues with awareness campaigns, but let's say they took it and actually did something with it and actually committed funds to a cause and use Ben and Jerry's as the driver for that. But then you're saying create a halo or ripple effect across the other brands. So there's an ingredient or some type of flavor. And maybe that becomes the theme of the month, but there's a cause where there's a charitable component or something behind it. I could get on board with that. So, but I don't know why I'm collecting devil's advocates today, but is it screen like what's wrong? That's all right, but that's a lot of work. They could have done that. That's a lot of work. Do they need to? So it's a Unilever. They've got Magnum, they've got other ice cream brands under their umbrella. They've got a problem child in Ben and Jerry's right now at the moment. Do they cut their, it's not even lost. I'm presuming it's worth more than they paid for it. Do they shake it free and say go. You have a voice that doesn't align with ours. Go live and prosper. Be in and appendent again. Get your board to buy you back. Do you know, do they double down? I don't know, I'm pressing the plan, but I got to wonder, yes, they could of course. They could put more work into it. But would they, should they? I mean, I think, look, they acquired this company for a reason, right? They acquired the company for a reason. And we understand that when acquisitions happen, there's a number of reasons why. And so I think they need to go back to kind of their why. Why did we acquire this company? We know that some of the things around kind of their original Ben and Jerry's mission and some of their social impact and social values was like contractually put into place. If I remember the story correctly, like in the original kind of agreement that was put into place. But I think then interpretation start to happen. And evolution does happen. And leadership changes happen. We start to, you know, especially from a social responsibility perspective have to think about how we're going to respond to kind of what's happening in the world around us. The pendulum swings back and forth. And again, it requires companies to be consistent, but also adaptable. So I don't think it's about, you know, I guess my point is like, they acquired it the company for a reason. I don't think that they have to throw the baby out with the bath water. They're going through who write this kind of this tension and season of just kind of discord with the founder. I don't think they need to cut them loose. I think what they need to do is again, kind of come into present day, put a framework together in terms of the, you know, saying, okay, look, founder or founders, we understand that, you know, originally when you established this brand, here's what you stood for. We respect that. It's one of the reasons why we acquire the company because we value it and we know that our customers value it. Here, based on where we are today as a world and as a company, here's where we see that we can have the biggest impact because the company can't respond to every cause across the world, right? And so here's what, where we know that we can have the most value. We want you to be aligned, work really, really hard to get that alignment with the founders because we value them. But at the end of the day, you know, the founder might be the North Star that that company has to chart the course forward. And that's really what we're talking about is present day and forward. And then once they put that framework in place to say, here's where we are today, here's where we know that we can have the most value, here's where we're headed. And we are going to leave ourselves wiggle room to adapt to what is going on around us in society because we know that things are going to bubble up, especially from a social perspective and we need to be prepared to respond to those because our stakeholders care, that then allows them to say, we don't have to get rid of this brand because we're going through this tough season. We, this has actually helped us to establish who we are today and who we want to be going forward with the input of the legacy of who the company originally was. I don't know Melissa, what do you think? Going online without ExpressVPN is like driving without a seatbelt. You might be careful, but if something risky happens, wouldn't you want to feel more secure? Well, every time you connect to public Wi-Fi, it's like you're not wearing a seatbelt because your data is vulnerable and valuable like your logins and credit cards people want them and learning how to steal your data is easy. But guess what, so is protecting it. ExpressVPN creates a secure encrypted tunnel between your device and the internet. Whether you're on a phone, a laptop or tablet, you can rest easy wherever you go. And when I say easy, I mean easy. You open the app, click a button and that's it. Look, hackers got a hack, but it's important to me that you don't fall victim to them. This one's obvious. If you could protect your data anywhere you go for about $12 a day, why wouldn't you? So buckle up and secure your online data today by visiting expressvpn.com-slash-fixed. That's expr-es-vpn.com-slash-fixed. To find out how you can get up to four extra months. Expressvpn.com-slash-fixed. I really like that. I think that it's, I truly believe that that's the very unique and reason for Ben and Jerry's. And so to me, like the business aspect of it, I get it. But I love what you've been saying, Kadira, about the ongoing transformation and change that's happening in this world. So we know that they're like we've said. There's gazillion flavors. There's a gazillion different ice cream companies. There's all these types of things. But you want to have your niche brand really staying at top means that they're going to have to adapt as well. And so I do think there's an answer internally to the company and those that remain still there about why this change was necessary and that it's not necessarily a bad thing that he called them out about like, you know, we were built on the foundation of a social mission. And it feels like there aren't any of those causes that are being elevated by the brand anymore. So that's OK. But I think the ability to move forward from that and have a plan which could be an activist and chief, right? Like somebody who is more associated with the company not a founder, right? But kind of the person who's leading the way on the head of the social mission and that beloved flavor guru and is the one who announces, you know, this is our next flavor, you know, thing. And you know, it becomes the new guardian of the brand's soul, so to speak. Peers and ads talks about the causes, not just about chocolate or strawberry or what the flavors are. And shows that this mission has become institutionalized and it's not just a personal thing. I think to me, that's the one thing. I mean, I am, I love ice cream. And so don't get me wrong. I will go anywhere that there's ice cream. But I do feel like there's something about Ben and Jerry's that makes you want to buy it, right? And so I and the difficulty about eating a whole item. So I do feel like that they have this opportunity. And again, looking at it from the business perspective, I think that they can kind of capitalize on a little bit of this noise that's happening right now, right? Because not, you know, sometimes, you know, I don't know, I'm not the marketing person here. And but like, you know, not all news is bad news, right? You know, like so if you're in the spotlight right now, Ben and Jerry's hasn't been in the spotlight for a while. So like now that they are, you know, take advantage of that. And that's what I'm saying about doubling down. Is it like the company can say, yes, he was a founder. He's the one who started this whole thing. He was the lightning rod. But like now it's, it's, it's, we're worldwide, right? And global. And so what we need to do is we need to ensure we have the best product, right? And that's expensive. We need to ensure that we, you know, that we're not over indexed. We don't have a bazillion flavors. And then we kind of dilute our entire brand. And that we, you know, you know, we're committed to that social mission. And that's why we're going to do limited releases. We're, you know, unlimited flavors. And then we're going to keep our core chunky monkey, fish food, all those that are going to stay on the shelf, right? So I do think there's an opportunity here. And I do think that there's so, so they do need to continue to grow and become, you know, competitive. And that's what Unilever provides them. The ability to transform their brand from just, you know, the pint in the, in the grocery store to all of the stores that they have, you know, they have free comb day, they have, you know, now do they have, and I don't even know if they do this, you know, like ice cream sandwiches, all the other things that they could do to kind of impart their brand and grow it. Because at the end of the day, it's not, you know, Ben and Jerry may have wanted it to be an on profit, but it's not. It's not an on profit. Yeah, that's a big megaphone. It's well beyond the scoop shop with the little, you know, community and pig pegboard in the back with the pins on it. You can get your message out in a, in a giant way that way. So, but I'm so argumentative today. Let's say, I I'm not ice cream yet. No, I must be. Yeah, exactly. Oh, but let's, okay. So, so Unilever does that. They appoint someone to be their values, the face of their values. They take a stance, they take a hard line stance. They happen to be, you know, they, they've mission driven, social driven, they happen to be tied, but Unilever's mission driven approaches happen to be tied to popular causes that bring customers, that bring revenue and they, they have to take that way. What if the founders, Ben, Jerry, et cetera, have a, whether or not they're part of the company anymore? What if they're activists driven too and they have stances that are anti what the companies, Unilever's vocal, we're taking a stand type of stances are, and they could take a bite at a profitability. What's the responsibility of the company to diffuse or answer to the situations or go back to the founders? Again, whether or not they're involved, what, how do you, you know, how do you play both sides of that equation? Well, I think this is where strong governance and having that long-term clarity, you know, I'm a list, I think that's a really great point, right? Like these companies are in business to make money. They're not nonprofits. Again, when an acquisition happens, one of the benefits, right? Typically, it'd be acquired by a larger company is that scale and that scope and, you know, being able to grow the business and all those things and providing that long-term clarity for the brand that's been acquired. I think this is where that matters, right? Now, let's be clear, like brands built on values, right? And for example, in this case, where these founders have like these, you know, amazing values around activism and environmentalism and all these things, but the reality is, especially as you grow, you grow beyond being that mom and pop shop, you know, on the corner in your local neighborhood, at some point there is going to be some tension, even if you're not acquired. And especially when you're acquired on your, on your bigger stage and a bigger scale, there's going to be some backlash and there's going to be some tension, right? And so like, that's where I think that governance, that's where I think that framework, that's where I think, you know, being really clear about what your values are and how you're going to operationalize them. That's where I think it matters if you're going to be consistent. I love Melissa's idea thinking about how you can bake this into all of your brand across Unilever. Again, that shows such a consistency and clarity. Again, the founders might leave with it from heart when they originally started the company, but that company that acquired, in this case, Unilever has the leverage and the pull and the scale to say, we can still live into who you were when you first started this company, but we're going to take it into a much bigger play here. We're going to put this on a much bigger scale. And again, we're going to bake it into our business strategy in a way that it is going to help us make profit because that is what we're here to do, but it's also going to make sure that we live into our purpose of who we are and who we should be today. So again, I don't think it has to be this either or, again, I think that you can still bring some of that founder passion and again, that origin story in with a strong framework in place, making sure that you're evolving the mission, again, making sure that you're being adaptable for what the brand needs to be today. I think where we run into problems is, regardless of who it might be, founder, other leadership, et cetera, when we're not growing in the same direction or willing to kind of all get on the same page at some point. That tension, a little bit of back and forth, even going public and saying, hey, I don't agree with this, again, it might not be a bad thing, but again, it leaves the opportunity for that bigger company that parent company to rise up and say, okay, we heard you, we're going to stay true, but we can still do this in a way that, again, sets this ice cream brand in particular, apart from every other ice cream brand that's on the shelf. So I think it absolutely is possible. I think that what you brought up, Kadeera is also an interesting thing because I've been at startups and this is clearly an issue for many startups as they go and get more money. Okay, as they need more money, or if they're writing themselves for an IPO or whatever they're doing, it's when your company and brand is so integrated into the founder or this or whoever it is, right? That once you sell your soul to private equity or whoever you're selling it to, right? You lose control of that. And so, let's get back, he sold the company, right? And now he doesn't like what he's done, but what somebody pocketed millions and millions of dollars and it was him, right? It's a rich, happy. Right, so for him to be saying all these things and who knows if you can only save them, but because maybe they were not being run the way they, whatever. That's a true statement, so I'm kind of becoming Aaron here. So I wonder, I feel like this is a topic that we're talking about and we're focused really on Ben and Jerry, right? But Ben and Jerry's, but I do feel like it's very common that this happens, especially in startups that may not be super large. And so the whole goal is to grow and grow exponentially, rapid scale, all of those things. And you can't do that if you don't have the money. And so then they get an investment from one of these big capital groups, P groups, and they come in and they have a whole different idea, right? They've like, oh, you've signed your life away. So now we're bringing in our own people. We're brave, we don't want your CMO friend. We don't want, you know, we don't want Melissa, we don't want Cadeira, we want to bring our whole slew, you know, our suite of executives to the table. And thanks for coming up with this idea, but no thanks. So I kind of feel like that is also a component of it that he may have felt like gosh, you know, have it he not think that this was possibly going to happen, that they were going to dilute the brand by having it become global, right? Like and that they were going to, you know, production was going to scale 100, 1000%. You know, have it, he think that that was not going to happen. And I think it's because he felt like he had the social mission like locked in, but maybe I really, I lost the narrative. Well, in the situations even trickier because there are two named founders and Ben's staying and put which is a way of kind of sanctioning whatever happens, but it's saying I can do better work from within that I can, you know, critiquing from the outside. So as long as the two of them are split, you know, I think we're going to keep seeing this play out publicly and it could get pretty ugly, who knows? But, but, you know, having Jerry on the outside, I think a Ben left, you know, I don't know these guys, but I think they probably, money talks like the two of them together, they probably might make a run for the company if they got some backers involved. Why wouldn't they, you know? But I wonder with the two of them split, I don't know what the contractual side of the exit was, but what if Jerry started his own ice cream company, you know, Jerry's original and you would that work on the market put with that cost too much consumer confusion? You know, that's a possibility if they have legally, he's able to do it, why that's what he knows, why wouldn't he enter the marketplace? Yeah, I mean, he could. I mean, I think, you know, Melissa, you mentioned, what was it famous saying, Ms. Cookies? I think, you know, the original owner attempted to do something very similar kind of tried to start it as separate brand or a different, you know, brand he could, right? And you, you know, again, depending on what all the workings are behind the scenes if he's allowed to do that. And he might have a good number of people who are like, yeah, remember that guy, right? But the guy that started been in Jerry's and I'm super attached to the activism and the things that he was doing and I don't like the direction that, you know, the acquiring company is going. So yeah, I'm gonna check out, you know, this new thing he's got going on. Possibly, but we also have to remember that customers, when we walk in the store, most of us are kind of like, you know, looking for what we usually grab and buy and most people been in Jerry's is what you grab. That's what you're gonna grab if that's what you've been buying. So again, is it impossible? No. I wanna go back though, you know, I think Melissa, you were making a really good point too, just about like, hey, how did we not know when we were gonna get here? And I think again, that's such a really good point about, you know, when companies are acquired and like, we're not we, but collectively, are surprised by some of these changes, even the fallout, right? Even a founder leaving, right? There shouldn't be any surprise around that because, you know, there are broader responsibilities. The narrative is gonna change. Even if again, they do stay true to the mission and all those things, there are going to be changes that there's gonna just cause, you know, again, dissent or, you know, people not being happy. And I think again, I go back to, we have to remember with these larger companies, they're companies that are in business to make profit, which most are, there's a broader responsibility, to stakeholders, to your shareholders, to employees, to customers across different cultures and markets. And so I always say what resonates here in the US, may not resonate in Kenya, may not resonate in, you know, certain parts of India or in China. And if you're gonna grow your brand and be a global company, you have to be thinking about that. And I think the challenges, founders are always equipped or even willing to make those trade-offs, right? And so, you know, that's why I go back to like, when those tensions arise and tension is not a bad thing, but when they do, it does become the company, the parent company or the acquiring company's job. Like don't just miss what's happening. Don't bury your hand in the sand. Don't just kind of let them talk and hope they go away and that people will forget about it, because as we're saying, folks are not forgetting about when these types of issues kind of bubble up. But again, I think it's the opportunity of that acquiring company to like, evolve the mission in a way that you, again, will still honor the spirit of who that brand original was, but again, without being handcuffed to like one person's view, right? Because it no longer is Ben and Jerry, the founders company, it is now a part of a bigger mission, right? And so, I think that's really the point, too, you made earlier Melissa about like, this isn't a bad thing that there's this public kind of point, you know, backlash. Yeah, happening, right? Like, use this as a moment to say, you know what? Thank you. We're going to use this as a moment to actually renew the company. Right. And see what goes from there. So, you know, I think a great example of that where there was controversy was Papa John's, right? When he made those really awful, the CEO, I mean, those really racist comments and they had to quickly pivot. And brilliantly, they brought in a spokesperson, they know one ever thought they would by bringing in Shaquille O'Neill and he helped to turn that whole narrative around, right? And, you know, I love, because you're at like the idea of really kind of coming up with Cadeira's playbook. And really kind of doing these things, because I do believe at the end of the day, it is a business. You brought up a really good point, too, that it's a global business now. So, like some of the causes that, you know, the hippies from Vermont were, you know, talking about are now no longer relevant to somebody that's living in Germany, right? You know what I mean? So, it's interesting that you said that because I was just thinking about like one of our favorite flavors is the Tonight Doe. And I'm wondering, like, is the Tonight Show actually a thing anyplace outside of the United States, right? You know what I mean? Yeah. So, like that's an example of like that, like catchy, like funny, like little thing with Jimmy Fallon and whatever. It doesn't, it may not even, it may not mean anything to anybody else, right? So, I do feel like though one of the things operationally, they need to continue to stay focused. I'm sure they are. I'm sure the business plans are there. But I do think the codifying the why of what Ben and Jerry's is all about, that culture code that eat those, the brand eat those, their social mission, whatever you wanna call it, use it visibly and aggressively as this is still the core of who we are. And it's about that mission, not the person, right? Not the founder. And then empower the team to be keepers of that flame, keepers of that mission, right? You know, like we talked about like having them, formally empower certain ambassadors or flavor ambassadors or mission ambassadors, whatever you wanna call them, and give them an opportunity to become like guardians of that culture, right? Because I think that's what he is saying in his letter that that culture, like it's all gone, right? And is it, or is it just that he's gone, right? And then kind of ritualize those values and creating like maybe company-wide traditions and like, you know, show how they're using this, you know, social platform and activism to actually help drive some of their different brands and their business, right? And so, you know, when you have, you know, an amazing cause or, you know, you have something, you can all rally, you know, the brands that are most likely to be impacted, rally around that, you know? And also create more noise. Like we've talked about this with a lot of, this whole FOMO, you know, moment, that's everybody's thing, right? Like the little boo-boo, right? FOMO, you know, I wanna get it. So have them be like short-term flavors, right? Have them be something that like, oh, you can only find these in these places, right? You know, like maybe, you know, there's things they're trying to help drive small businesses. So they're like, you're only gonna find these flavors at your local bodega, you know? You're not gonna find them at Ralph's or Publix or King's Supers or anything like that, right? You know, I mean, what are they trying to do? So, and they're not gonna be unprofitable, right? Like, right. You know? That sounds like a beginnings of a fix to me. I wanna say it's time to fix this and move us into that mode. So, all right. So we're gonna stay true to the mission. Kadeera, you said it. So perfectly, Ben and Jerry's was acquired for a reason. What's the reason? There's a mission behind it. Let's not throw it out. Like I was suggesting earlier, let's dig into it. Maybe even double down on it. But we've got to grow past maybe the original founders visions that we're gonna do to tie that guys from Vermont may not have a global perspective on things. And then you, but the mission that, you know, from the beginning is peace, peace, love and ice cream. That's a burry. You can broadly interpret that. So it's, you know, you can do that, and execute that any number of ways. And you can't really go wrong. Have a great comms plan because of Jerry, maybe Ben someday is gonna sit from the outside and try to knee-cap the company or be vocal critics. You have to know what you stand for and stay true to it as a company. I had to diffuse the any negative founder energy out there. Watch for Jerry, maybe Ben coming back and getting some dollars behind them and making a run for the company. Maybe watch for Jerry starting his own thing, whatever it is, ice cream or ice cream adjacent or something else, but he's not gonna go quietly into the good night. He's gonna be out there. And bring your team in and not only your team and your company, but you have a potential opportunity to use Unilever, you know, use Ben and Jerry as the driver for your family of companies and say, look, let's emanate this out from within. Ben and Jerry is going to kick off something. It's gonna go, we have to go beyond awareness. Everyone knows about the things, the diseases and things that are out there, but we're gonna actually use it to put our voices behind it and our dollars behind it and commit to one cause at a time or one over arching cause at a time, maybe one per month campaign driven across the Unilever family of brands. Ben and Jerry is gonna be our crown jewel for that. And we're fully committed and we're gonna sell a bunch of ice cream. Kadeera, do we fix it? Yes, I think this is totally fixable. You know, again, we have seen where, you know, again, mission-led companies, they're acquired, the founder stays on and then there's, you know, a split. I think when it's successful and the fixes that we've outlined here, you know, really it's about courage. You gotta be, you gotta lead, let's lean into the moment. Let's have some strategic clarity, right? Like again, figure out how you're gonna operationalize the mission. Like again, we talk so much about communication. Yes, so be transparent. I think having boundaries, right? Having boundaries again that we can call it boundaries, call it a framework, whatever you wanna call it. Just to talk about again, this is who we've been, who we are today. Here's what we're gonna stand for going forward is really, really important so that your customers and other stakeholders have that clarity. And then just long-term commitment to values with the understanding that there will be some adaptation that we're going to be flexible again, based on how the world is evolving, as quickly as it's evolving. Again, your customers and stakeholders expect that. And so yes, I think this is totally fixable. I think that we fixed it. Okay, go ask. What do you say, Melissa? I'm in agreement with Kadeera and I just wanna follow up with some, you know, saying like the story of Ben and Jerry's is still being written, right? But there is a lesson in it for all of us as leaders, entrepreneurs, founders, consumers. It's that values are a living thing. And Kadeera, you talked about that it evolves over time. They can't be acquired in a merger and then just locked it in the vault, right? They have to be nurtured, operationalized, and defended every single day. And I think that's the thing that we need to focus on or Ben and Jerry's needs to focus on. A founders departure, especially a messy one, is not unique to Ben and Jerry's, but it is a profound test. It's also an opportunity. It's an opportunity for Unilever to prove that its soul wasn't just rented from the founders and that they woven it into the fabric of the operations. And the, you know, I think for Ben and Jerry's, the true test won't be if they can still sell fish food or, you know, you know, New York fudge or whatever. But if they can prove that to their customers that what they started with, that spoonful of activism in every pint is still important and as potent as ever. So I think that, you know, like getting deeper down into your roots is really going to be important. But also being able to scale that because they're not the little Ben and Jerry's from Vermont anymore. It's probably a great, great stuff. Both of you, Melissa, before we wrap up, favorite ice cream flavor, Ben and Jerry's or otherwise? I have to say it's a non-Ben and Jerry's, but it's strawberry. They don't make strawberry? Probably have the strawberries. Probably have the strawberry, but it probably has stuff in it. Like, these are something like, I don't, yeah, like strawberry purist. I'm a purist, so I'm a strawberry hogging dust. But I do love, I do love, I mentioned it before, the tonight go. Right. Katero. I like go to play you a Katero. Look, I will say I love what Ben and Jerry's has stood for. So if you, I do like texture and all the crunchy things that they put in their ice cream. So if it's chocolate, pretty much, I'll try it. But I also am more of a flavor person. And so I am mint chocolate chip all the way. Just if you put that in front of me as well, fine, I'm sold. That chocolate chip in my house, we call that toothpaste ice cream. Because it's minty that belongs in your chipper. I love it. And the chocolate chips. I love it. I'm not the, it is a big audience for it. I'm not the one for it. But heavy had a chubby hubby. It's the one with a peanut butter. It's malt and peanut butter pretzels and not so good stuff. Yeah. I just sold some Ben and Jerry's right. Is that Ben and Jerry's? It's a Ben and Jerry's flavor. Yeah. I'll try. Because my husband's a pure Ben and Jerry's guy. So we try. Chubby hubby. We have three of those and he loves like the Reese's cups, all the stuff. So I have to go look for that. I haven't seen that flavor. I'm kind of, then I kind of get stuck in my flavor profile with Ben and Jerry's. I kind of always to scrap the same ones. Yeah. Well, that's going to do it for this episode. I think we sprinkled in some good fixes. Melissa, Kadeera, thanks for putting up with me pressure testing the ideas. And sorry for all the ice cream puns that couldn't be helped. For all you out there, if I missed any obvious ice cream puns, go ahead and throw them on social and tagged, we fixed it, pod. And we also love listener suggestions and hearing from all you fix a hallix out there. If there's a company we haven't gotten to yet, let us know too. Again, we're on social at we fixed it, pod, including YouTube. We just had our biggest episode there ever. If you have a specific question, you can connect with any of us at we fixed it, pod.com. And we need you to keep us in the top 10 to be sure to like, subscribe, tell everyone you know about the podcast. And we will see you next time. We hope you enjoyed this episode of We Fixed It. You're welcome. We go into every episode somewhat cold. 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