Week 13 (Days 358-365): Is Revelation literal or metaphorical?

Hey, hello, Rears! Welcome to TBR Deep Dive. I'm Emma Daughter, and I'm Kirsten McClasty. And we're back with our good friend, Elby. Hey, hey. Elby, for those who don't know you. Who are you? Hello, I'm Laura Buchelt. My friends call me Elby. You may call me whichever you prefer. I think Elby is what we'll be- I prefer Elby. I work full-time here in all things, the TBR and adjacent ministries. I get to help with the theology side of curriculum and content like the deep dive, as well as I get to lead our Israel trips, guys. I know. You're so lucky. I really find the Lord is kind. Yes, we have a lot of fun on those trips. I love that. All right. Well, we're super excited that you're here, and let's go ahead and get started. Come in with a first question. So this question comes from day 363 when we're in the book of Revelation. So here's the question. I know there are a lot of views on Revelation. Can you just give a brief overview of some of the different perspectives? I want to learn more, but I don't even know where to begin. That is an excellent question. Let's- Let's try to help with this. Got paper scissors? I think Emma should do this one. Yeah. All right. I was running. You got it Emma. Where do you begin? I'd say with a posture of humility, there are a lot of different views on Revelation in a lot of strong opinions, but the reality is no one actually knows what's going to happen. Yes. And people don't necessarily know what the things in the book might mean at some point. Yes. So what I always tell people, whenever you research Revelation, you've got to know that though we don't know and no one knows, most sources are going to have a bias toward their viewpoint. So it's probably going to be challenging to find a viewpoint that gives you an objective perspective on all the views, which is what it seems like I'm going to attempt to be doing. And I'll just say, having a viewpoint is not wrong. Yes. So having a view and choosing a view that you need to hold to, that's great. Yes. It can help as you go through. It can be. Yeah. Yeah. And I would also say personally, I don't have a viewpoint that I hold to. People think, but what is your, I just believe Jesus is coming back. That's enough for me. And it's okay if you want to know more than that and explore. I find that for me, I think I'm also kind of in that camp and I feel also like I flip back and forth. Sure. I'm like, this is maybe this and this is, you know, I think I have made maybe have more opinions in both of you. And that's okay. And that is, oh, just put them on the left here. Yeah. Yeah. Feel free to let us know. So, so where should somebody start? If they haven't been exposed to the varying views, if they're exploring these ideas, a great place to start is with your local church. I'd ask, do you know what your local church believes? A lot of churches have doctrinal statements that simply include, yes, we believe Jesus is coming back, but don't take a strong stance on the details. And I think that's okay and probably wise because no one knows. However, starting a humble conversation with leaders you trust is a great place to start. What do they think? Who have they learned from? What sources have been helpful for them? Right. Yeah. And I just want to jump in here and be clear and highlight that none of this is an issue of salvation. So we're going to go through and try to explain some of these ways to interpret this book, but this is not a key issue in the sense that it's these core doctrines of Orthodox Christianity as long as you believe that Jesus is coming back. That's the key one. Christians disagree on this. There have been times throughout history where some people thought that, some people thought that, but I think pointing them to the church is such a good idea, pointing them to a pastor, a mentor, and doing your own research. And coming like you said, Emma, with a posture of humility that's not necessarily about what we're going for is not figuring out what's the right view. It's how do I, how does this make sense to me? How can I understand what's going on here to further deepen my relationship with the Lord to trust God more and to be encouraged by this book? Because it's supposed to be an encouraging book. Yes. It's good news for the believer. It's a good news for the believer. And when you can see it that way, it will change kind of the ooh of it. And if I can, if I can just piggyback off of that, the not only is it not affect our salvation, it's also not meant to be something that brings disunity. Yes. And I think it's one of those things that can so easily, well, I hold this opinion, you hold that opinion and we break fellowship. Yeah. And this is not a break fellowship, Tom. And there are people that have really strong opinions and that feel really confident in their opinions. And I honestly, I love that. I love that they do. Some of my favorite commentators have very strong opinions and I'm great with that. I think as long as we're all in the same page of disagreement on this topic, doesn't mean we're not brothers necessarily. Exactly. And my other thing I want to say as long as like along with the go to your local pastor, like what is your local church start there? How would you say the internet is a wild place? And indeed you can find just about anything you want to think on the internet. Someone will agree with it. So when you're researching, if you want to dig deeper into the topic of the views of revelation, of the end times of what is it like when Jesus comes back and be really careful and be really picky with your sources. And anything we say, if there's something that we say in this podcast that you're like, I don't know about that, check it. Check us against truth because it's again, there's a lot of crazy stuff out there and there's a lot of really good stuff out there. So be really intentional about your resources and who you're choosing to listen to on this topic. That's a great point. Great point. Okay. Okay. Kick us off Emma. So when it comes to understanding the views, the many views I should say, there's really two categories of information and I want to start with the first category. In the first category details, the way people interpret the timeline of revelation as a whole. So in what order when do these events occur? And because we're trying to be much more objective, I am going to be reading from my notes, maybe a little more than usual. You know what? It's probably done in that way. Yes. And those who are listening, they're not watching, it'll feel exactly the same for you. So there's four timeline views and those are called futurist, preterist, historicist, and idealist. So here's a quick breakdown on each of them starting with futurist. Again, these are views on the timeline as a whole. Futurist, this view says most of revelation has not happened yet. It's going to happen in the, you guessed it, the future. That's right. That was also not planned. That was awesome. You're just that. That's good. That's just good. It's all about future events like the rise of the Antichrist, seven-year tribulation, and Jesus coming back to set up a 1000-year kingdom. Preterist is the next view. This view is the opposite of the futurist. It's saying, hey, most of revelation has already happened. Only around the time when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem in 7080. Most scholars believe John actually wrote this book, the book of Revelation, about 25 years after that event. So preterists believe the book was mainly written for the early church to not only explain what had just happened, but to also describe other things that were about to go down. The third view is the historicist view. This view sees revelation as a big, big timeline of church history from the early church all the way to today, and possibly even beyond today, into the future. Yeah. And those who hold this view, what they do is they recognize parts of history could relate with what's described in Revelation. And when they say parts of history or I say parts of history, they're referring to things like the Protestant Reformation or World Wars. So history you'd learn about in your history class growing up. They'd say, this could correlate with the contents of Revelation. So we've got the futurist. Most of it hasn't happened yet. The preterist, most of it has already happened. Historicist, a lot of it correlates with history. And then lastly, we have the idealist. And this view says, hey, Revelation, it's not really about specific events. But it's more symbolic. Revelation paints a clear picture of the battle between good and evil. And we get to see that good, overwhelmingly triumphs and that Jesus wins in the end. In fact, they'd say it's barely a battle. It's about evil getting absolutely demolished. And as teeth kicked in. Yes. And so these are the four primary views on the timeline of Revelation. Very good. That's impressive. I hope that's helpful. Because I think that it's good to see them so clearly laid out that way. And also to remember that this is about people trying to make sense of a book that has been kind of historically confusing for people. And so it might be some of these. It might be all of these. It might be, there's possibility for some gray areas. But these are the views that you can kind of clearly just hang your hat on. OK, that's what that is. That's what that is. And you could pick, history, you could pick, preterist, I could pick idealist, terribly could pick the fourth. We could all be different. And yet we're all equally Christians. No one's a worse Christian than the other. We're all saved. It's OK to think differently. Exactly. So that's the first category of views. Before I move on, I'll be anything you want to add on the first category. I think that's super clear. I think just understanding that with that category gives us a good framework for how to think about the book. So great job. Thank you. The second category, and I'm actually curious to know. I'm going to let you walk through the specifics. Perfect. But let me set it up for you. These views, the second category, focus specifically on how and when Jesus will return. So now we're moving from big picture to very specific. And these views are especially concerned with the idea of the millennium, which is one way of referring to the thousand year reign mentioned in Revelation 20. And it's also focused on the rapture, which is a friend who's also a teacher of mine. Garrett said, the rapture simply defined is a belief that those in Christ will rise to welcome Christ at a second coming where he swiftly and decisively defeats Satan's rebellion at its core. It's a really simple definition, which the rapture also has its own set of views, right? Yes. Yes. And it's not from Revelation. No, it is not. It's actually from Versuslone. Second, yes. So when you get into these more specific views, you're looking at Versus and Second Thessalonians, some passages from Daniel and Revelation are the primary texts that are informing these more specific views. Perfect. Okay. So let's do super simple breakdown. We'll see. Super simple breakdown of the views about the how and the when details. Okay. So first, we have historic pre-millennialism. So 1000 years millennium, okay, when you're thinking that historic pre-millennialism, Jesus comes back before a thousand year millennial reign on earth. And even in this view, there's two different nuanced perspectives. Some subcategories. Yes. Subcategory one. Pre-tribulation pre-millennialism. So that's where Jesus takes Christians out of the world before a seven year tribulation period. Then he comes back to rule. First, tribulation pre-millennialism is Christians go through the tribulation and then Jesus comes back after it to rule. And there's even more than that. We'll just stick with those. I was sort of raised in this historic pre-millennialism, like category, but my dad always said, we pray for pre-trib and we plan for post. And I always thought that that was a really good way of looking at it. That's great. Okay. So that was historic pre-millennialism. Now we have post-millennialism, second category. Christ's second coming will be after a period of peace and prosperity on earth. So this view is essentially like things are getting better and better and better. Okay. Dispensational pre-millennialism. This is the third view. Christ's second coming is before his thousand year reign on earth. And this view also emphasizes a pre-tribulation rapture. Okay. And then the fourth is omelennialism. So the awe at the beginning of this word, the a at the beginning of this word, is a way of negating the rest of the word that follows. So omelennialism or a millennialism, however you want to pronounce it, means not a literal millennium. So not a literal thousand year reign of Christ on earth. So this view says the thousand years isn't an actual timeline. It's a general range representing the entire church age, which is what we've been in since the book of Acts. And we're still in right now. And this view says Jesus will return once at the end, and that's it. Final judgment, new creation, we're at the end of Revelation. That was a lot of information. Are you still there? That's great. That's great. Yeah. Everyone has selected their view. Yeah. We all have, and chose the view points now. Right. And can I just say again, so MNI are in seminary. We have to take a class on eschatology. And we're, you know, I mean, there's a lot that you can talk about with them. Eschatology is a study of the end time. Study of the end time. Thank you, Albein. And sitting in that class, I remember thinking, oh man, there's a lot of details. You know, you have to write a paper at the end and I'm like, wait, what? What's happening? When? So I was confused at times as I was writing my paper, but reminding myself again, and for all of us doing our Bible reading, just being able to zoom out again with this book. Okay, you just learned a lot of really helpful information. And you now may be able to see some of this in, in Revelation as you look at other passages that deal with end times. But don't, you don't have to get swept up in this. If this, if that was a lot of information and you're like, that's all I ever need to know about that, that's okay. That's all right. Yeah. I also, I got it. Before we go to the next question, I'm about to say. We kept saying this book over and over again. Oh, yeah. This book is Revelation. The book of Revelation singular. Singular. Not revelations. Which is what often a lot of people say on accident. Yeah. It sounds like you feel very passionately about that. I do because I think it's embarrassing when someone says revelations and no one ever has stopped to teach them that they've been saying it wrong, possibly their whole life. Yeah. And we're just loving. We should help people out. It's like when I mispronounce things, you know, you guys help me. Which happens often. That's true. That is true. That's hilarious. Yes. The last thing I want to say before we move on with this whole topic of the breakdown of views is just the reminder. He's coming back. Yes. He's coming back. Amen. All right. And that is really good. Oh, it's a great news. Really good news. It was a bus in Christ. You ready for this next question? I'm going to do my best. It's a doozy. It is a doozy. It is coming from day 364 and it's from Revelation 13 11 through 18, which talks all about the mark of the beast. Here's the question. What is the mark? Should I be worried about getting it accidentally? Which is fair to ask. Listen. It is very fair. That's a very fair question. And I think culture informs a lot of things where these Scripture does sometimes. And there was a very popular eschatological movie and book series out when I was growing up that I think caused a lot of, formed a lot of opinions. And so I think there are things that we see that makes it this really scary thing that like, what if I accidentally XYZ? What I understand from this passage and from really as I read through Revelation, what I understand is you're not at risk of accidentally getting it. What I read is that this is about worship. It is about submission. And if you are someone who is worshipping and in submission to the Lord, you're not going to accidentally get a mark of the beast. It's just not. It's about worship. And so I do think, I don't think so, so no, I don't think you're going to accidentally get it. However, I do think it is really important to be aware of what you worship. Yeah. So I think even as Christians, sometimes we can add things to our faith and call it part of our faith of like, what are, what are we worshipping? What are our goals? I think this question for me sends me back to a heart check of like, is there anything that I'm putting in a role that should be held by God? No, I don't think you should be worried about getting it accidentally. And I'm not, I'm going to tell you, I don't really know what the work is. And every once in a while, like credit cards came out with like a smart chip and people are like, mark of the beast, right? Right. Or like, now they're talking about like implants for technology and so like, mark of the beast. And I'm like, look, I'm not saying it is or I'm not saying it isn't. I'm not, I'm not going to spend time. Freding is the word I'm going to use. I'm not going to spend a lot of time fretting about the details of it. As much as I'm going to spend time fretting about where my worship is located. Yeah. Like, I think that's a better use of my mental space and hard time. Yep. And just another quote from one of the scholars that I love who just are giving me great quotes for this. I love when they say something like this, the exact meaning behind the mark of the beast is difficult to fully understand in its historical context. You're like, is that past history really so much? I appreciate that. So let's just again, this, some of this stuff is hard to understand and people have a wide variety of different opinions. One thing I will say that I found interesting as I was looking into this is that the mark of the beast is actually contrasted with the seal that is put on those who follow Christ. Yeah. So Revelation 7 3 says, do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads. And then 141 says, then I looked and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb and with him 144,000 who had his name and his father's name written on their foreheads. So and again, is that an actual, is it actually written on the foreheads? Remember that this book, there are many things in this book that are symbolic, whether you take a more literal view or not. And so I think what's important for this question too is that this might not be some, you know, like stamp on, remember the orcs in the Lord of the Rings? You know, didn't they have that guy's hand on his part? So like sure, I guess it could be that, but also remember that this is a very symbolic book. Right. And so we want to, we want to keep that. Lots of metaphor. Exactly. And so as you're leading through, you kind of have to be willing to sift through some of that. Yes. So today, people will speculate that the mark's a social security number, the microchip that you mentioned, a barcode. But any modern day conspiracies that people think of today, I think I can say with relatively high certainty that they would not have been thought of by people in the early church. Exactly. They would have, if they were to have their own speculation list, it would have included things like a slave being branded to show that he belonged to his master or maybe a soldier receiving a tattoo because he's an army or first century idol worship practices. So it's, I think what you just said is really helpful. And to also recognize that the father's name singular is written on the foreheads of those who love God. And nobody thinks people are to let, are going to literally have God tattooed on their forehead in how we're like, are we all going to have face tats? Right. Nobody's saying that. So I think thinking about it symbolically is also really helpful when crazy conspiracies are flying around. And it seems, if we're thinking about it more as a symbol or a metaphor instead of taking it literally, then it's more of a symbol for the kind of allegiance that this entity, like the beast, would demand from their followers. So it's entirely possible that it's not an actual mark totally one's body if we're looking at it. Totally. But it's going to come back to that submission and authority under something other than God. Exactly. So let's say, okay, what if it's not symbolic? If you're, if you hold, let's say going back to those views, the futurist view, then the purpose of the mark is that it is going to be most likely a literal sign for followers of the anti Christ and the false prophet. And what leads people to getting this mark then if you hold that view, you're, these people are those who hold this view would suggest if you want to stay alive in these last days. You have no choice but to get to mark. Your life is going to become very miserable or you're going to die if you don't. And they would say it is a literal mark on the forehead or hand, not like carrying around your driver's license, for example. And so yes, we can, I think we maybe just took a little bit more favorable side on the symbolism. It could also be a very literal thing. But if it is literal, it's, it's probably not the things that we're conspiring about. It's probably not the things people think. Yes, yes. Yeah. 100%. Again, this really comes back to which of these views and then which of the subviews and then kind of how it and the sub and the views. Which again, not about the have right for me. Obviously you maybe we, I think we played our hands a little bit with, with, I think, again, for me, that helps me make sense of it because I do think it is something, I do think it's something bigger than an accidental thing regardless of the totally. Yes. Yes. And intentional act, whether it's physical or symbolic, physical thing that that is done in response to authority and worship of someone that ought not be worshiped. Totally. All right. Enough revelation. All right. You ready for this next question? We love it. It's God's word. That was two revelation questions in a row. We can make it up a little bit. And this next question comes from day three, 58, specifically second timothy, 223, which says, have nothing to do with foolish ignorant controversies. You know that they breed corals. The question is, how do we steer clear of controversies within the church? Very good question. That is a really great question. Incredibly relevant, I feel like. So let's start with this. What's interesting to me is that Paul was warning timothy. And first, timothy had to be aware of the kinds of things that actually lead to the quarreling. So there's the awareness of that. And then he needs to avoid them. And in this context, the words foolish and ignorant have, yeah, some connotations that we want to make sure that we're clear on. So foolish is about being godless. So not promoting the Christian faith or proper morality. And then ignorant is talking about being uneducated. So these people were not only out of line with what we would deem to be orthodox Christianity and what Paul would call sound doctrine. So they were out of line with these controversies, but they were also uneducated. So this is a very bad combo for people that are promoting these ideas within the church. Yes. So what's maybe helpful is to define what it isn't. I know you love it when I do this. I love it. I love it. This isn't talking about a controversy like when a pastor falls into sexual immorality. That's not the kind of controversy that we're talking about. It's about believers arguing about things that are either pointless and insignificant or wrong or they're arguing about things they don't know much about. Yep. Yep. I've heard some people doing that at times. It's unfortunate. We argue men's after all. When I first read this question, how do we steer clear controversies within the church? My first thought was become a hermit. Yeah. No, and don't ever leave because, but I do think the specifics of what godless and foolish controversies are, I think is a really important thing to define. We need to be able to, how do we avoid that? Well, we listen to each other to hear what the other person is saying. I think a lot of times when we're having even theological discussions, but really any topics, but theological in general, or in specific, we want to listen so that we can respond. We want to listen so that we have something intelligent to say instead of listening to hear what the other person is saying. So I think some of it, some of it is in general, one of these things is about being uneducated. If you have more education than me, and I want to avoid this type of controversy, when you're talking, I want to listen. Okay. Let me play the other side. Do it. Play it. A few verses earlier. Yep. Second Timothy 2, 16, we read, keep reminding God's people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words. It is of no value and only ruins those who listen. Could I read this verse in the broader context of Second Timothy 2 and conclude, these kinds of conversations are destructive, I should avoid them. If listening ruins a person, I shouldn't participate in those discussions. Well, it feels like actually what I feel like where you were going with that LB was more in a setting where people might have different opinions. Right. But I do think that what Timothy, sorry, what Paul is referring to with these specific controversies, I think that what you're saying Emma. Okay. So that's the modern day. The modern day response would be if it's believers with different convictions. How do we steer clear of controversies within the church? I'm thinking more of today's application versus. But I do think that it's interesting what Paul says because there's a lot of things that we could say are foolish and ignorant controversies because many people don't actually know the truth. And that was kind of my, that's kind of what I was thinking about a lot with this is like, we need to know the truth to be able to know what is a foolish and ignorant controversy. And they're going to be, they're going to be situation specific, mostly. You know, so it's hard to kind of say, here's one, here's one, here's one. It's anyone who's outside the bounds of what we say is Orthodox Christianity, what Paul would deem, he says in second Timothy, the follow the pattern of sound words that you have heard from me in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. So anything outside the bounds of sound doctrine, I think the reality is it's like, I'm not listening to that because what I don't, I'm, there's nothing for me to gain from something outside those bounds. Which is, which is one of the reasons at the top of this episode, I said, be very careful about who you listen to, especially with things about revelation. Yeah. Because you could get, you could get into this trap that he's talking about to Timothy, real quick. Yeah. And yeah, versus 24 through 26, Paul to Timothy, not to get caught up in pointless arguments, but to gently and patiently teach the truth. Yeah. That's right. I think a good reflection for modern readers might be, are you around people who gently and patiently teach truth and do you gently and patiently teach truth to others? Or is your tendency to argue about the end times? To argue to win. Yeah. Yeah. And I think conversations about things that are striving to help us understand scripture more. Again, I want to come back to like, I'm great with that. Yeah. I think it's helpful. And I think being able to listen and have healthy, non-combative conversations in that space is really helpful and good for us. A great thing. That truth and gentleness, like that is, that is a linchpin. I also have a personal rule that I heard it said once that someone said, I refused to die on a hill that doesn't look like Calvary. Mm-hmm. And I'm like, oh, that's so good. Yeah. I put that on a shirt. Like, I will, I will discuss and debate with you all day long. But there's one place that is worth my life and that's the truth, the sound doctrine. And the things that we're talking about. Yeah. That's really important. Very good. All right. I think we've got to get back to Revelation. We're back to Revelation. Yay. Okay. This question is from day 362. And it's more of a general question about Revelation. So it says, how do I know what parts of this book are literal or metaphorical? Okay. I've got to say I've been dogging the revelation questions, but I actually am loving the general, the general questions. I like these. I, yeah, I feel like Revelation because it is so unique. Yeah. I mean, there's other examples of apocalyptic literature in the Bible, but they're kind of few and far between. And so it's just a genre that we don't deal with very much. Yeah. Yes. And so it can be really difficult, but I do feel like the more and more I read the book and the more and more I remember that it is for our encouragement, the more I can see that as I read the book. Yeah. And I really, I really appreciate that. Yeah. And I think that you pointed out the genre. Yeah. I think that's super helpful because this type of writing is going to use vivid symbols, visions, imagery to communicate real truths. And so symbolism is, it's in its nature. Would be one way to, one way to put it. And then a great practice whenever you encounter symbolism is to let Scripture interpret Scripture or to ask what else does the Bible say about this? So if there's an image in Revelation that's also used elsewhere in Scripture symbolically, yeah, it's a strong clue that it's probably symbolic in Revelation. Yeah. So for example, we see the word Harlet in Revelation 17, which is similar to Old Testament prophets calling idolatrous nations spiritual, spiritually unfaithful nations a Harlet. Right. Jose would be the most clear example, but Isaiah also does that without the acting out piece that you get in Hosea, so more of a true symbol. Yeah. But then we've also got to remember the immediate context because we can approach or think about interpreting Revelation and neglect what was going on at John's time in John's day. Yeah. So we've got to start with the genre, yes, and the context, context, context, context, context. Yes. Probably my favorite word in the English language. Some parts are clearly symbolic because the text itself says so. Revelation 12 says that the lamp stands are the churches. Yes. Literally, John was on the island of Patmos. Yep. Revelation 1.9, historical context right there. He was there. Symbolic, a sword came from his mouth, possible imagery for the power of Christ's word. Yep. Context matters. It very much does. Yeah. So as you get into the context, you get into the symbolism, you get some imagery. You're looking at the context, you're not sure as we're reading through the Bible, ask is this something I've seen before? So you get to the beast imagery. Well, that echoes Daniel 7. So maybe it's possibly symbolizing kingdoms, measuring the temple, Revelation 11, echoes Ezekiel 40 through 42. So possibly maybe symbolizing God's protection. Just can have symbolic meaning. In Judaism, 7 equals completeness. 12 equals God's people often. With 1000 equals a large quantity or a full quantity. That doesn't mean these numbers never have a literal meaning. Right. But the symbolic meaning is typically going to come first in apocalyptic literature in this genre. And apocalyptic literature. Like that is so important to remember because Jesus talks about having 12 disciples. Yeah. There were actually 12. So having it in its correct space is very important. And I really like this question because this can be a question that you can apply to other books as well. Obviously, Revelation is an easy one because it fits specifically in this genre that is known for being very symbolic in nature. But I mean, there are things that Jesus says like in the Gospel of John, in John 653, Jesus says to a large group of his followers, truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. And this led people in the Roman world who are not Christians to think that Christians were cannibals. Yeah. Yes. But Jesus lost followers that day. Exactly. Because they're like, right. I know. Right. But then Jesus goes on to clarify a little bit later that he's actually distinguishing between a fleshly realm and a spiritual realm. And only one of them, the spiritual realm, has the power to give life. But if you were reading through the Bible and just every single thing you read as literal or every single thing you read as symbolic, you're going to maybe get to a place where you've got some weird stuff. Absolutely. Yeah. It's such a crazy combination. And this is one of the reasons I'm so grateful that when we read Scripture as followers of Jesus, we don't read it by ourselves. Right. So we have the Holy Spirit indwelling in us. We know this. We've talked about it. And because of that, when we read Scripture, he helps us to understand Scripture. He helps us get us to Scripture. That's right. And gives us discernment. So when we approach texts like this, I think, man, ask the Lord. If you are confused, if you're like, I don't ask the Lord. Is this symbolic? Is this literal? What do you want me to do with what this is saying? So I think the, depending on the Spirit, even in those moments of study is powerful and helpful. Yep. And like, get some good commentaries to be your buddies. Ask people in your church that, you know, maybe have a little bit more of an understanding of Scripture than you do. There's, there are lots of ways to not do that alone. Yeah. And so that's a great, that's a great point, I'll be. All right. You ready for the next question? Yes. Let's do it. This one comes from day 360 and the specific passage it comes from is 1 John 2 18, which says, children, it is the last hour. And as you have heard that Antichrist is coming, so now many Antichrists have come. Therefore, we know that it is the last hour. And the question reads, really it's a statement, but I'm going to present this statement as a question. Okay. Make sure to inflect. I always thought there was just one Antichrist, but it seems like John says there have been multiple Antichrists. Very good question. Question mark. Is there one or are there many? Well, I'm going to go ahead and say I'm not sure about the exact answer to that, but I do also want to bring up the point that potentially we have this idea in our head, whatever that idea might be about what we've heard about the Antichrist or kind of a pop culture view of the Antichrist. It's a term that people throw around, Christian and non-Christian. But I just would like to present to the table that maybe we have defined it so narrowly, and we want to be able to kind of like really pin it down and be like, this is the Antichrist and this is who it is. But I'm not totally sure that that's the point and I'm not totally sure that's what John is saying. So let's just first define the term. So Antichrist simply means against Christ. And John says a few other helpful things. So from kind of going on from this verse, so we read M.A.R.D. to 18, going on from that in 2.19, they went out from us, but they were not of us. For if they had been of us, they would have continued with us, but they went out that it might become plain that they all are not of us. But you have been anointed by the Holy One and you all have knowledge. I write to you not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it and because no lie is of the truth. Who is the liar, but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the Antichrist. He who denies the Father and the Son. So what I hear you saying is there is, John uses this term in multiple ways, but here in 1 John, we see the singular Antichrist, a future climactic figure who is going to oppose Christ and to see a lot of people before Jesus comes back. And we also see John using the plural. Many people in John's day actively had denied or were denying Christ's identity in opposing the gospel. Who were we? Antichrist. Yes. Yes. And later on in 1 John, for three, he says, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already. I can see where that would really confuse people. If you're thinking the Antichrist is this end times person alone, that's the view that you've been taught, then you read this and you're like, well, if he's in the world already, back then when John wrote this, does that mean for today? Yeah. I think a way to think about what John's saying would be to suggest, or maybe I could paraphrase perhaps, John's like, okay, there's going to be smaller scale for runners, people who come before the Antichrist, think false teachers, deceivers or even movements that share the same spirit of opposition to Jesus, leading up to the final Antichrist appearing that everybody's probably heard about, or at least seen in movies or talked about in the news, whatever. It does sort of take a stance on a futurist. Yes, it does. It does. It's effective of a revelation. So keep that in mind. But it's good. So we just spent time, the three of us spent time, along with other writers working on a devotional of second Thessalonians. And it talks about the Antichrist. And we around the table had some really incredible conversations just like trying to narrow this down. And I think the thing that was most impactful about that for me was what is the principle that when it Antichrist in particular, anything that sort of scares us a little bit, but the Antichrist in particular, what is the principle that's being talked about? I think it's easy to hear the word Antichrist in all of a sudden my brain is my brain is way over here. But the principle it seems that's being talked about in this passage by John is more about the heart posture of the individual. Of the individual. And so for me, I hear this and even in second Thessalonians, I want to know what is the principle that he's talking about? And I want to know, how do I apply that to my life a whole lot more than who is the Antichrist? Yeah, right. You know, I have to figure out who it is. I'm way more interested in what is he talking about that this person who obviously does not love the Lord? Does not know the Lord. Yeah. How do I make sure that I'm not someone who's following someone like that? Yeah. That tends to be with all of this of like, is there one? Is there multiple? Well, yeah, how do you define it? But then also, I think it's, let's try not to get too myopic on the things that scripture is not emphasizing because what it is emphasizing is like, hey, there will be people. There are people who reject Jesus. There are people who reject Jesus. Don't be one of those people. Right. And don't be surprised. And don't be surprised. And don't be surprised. Don't be surprised. Great application. Yeah, don't be surprised. Yeah, don't be surprised that the fallen world has fallen people in it. And people who don't know Christ don't live in a God-honoring way. I think that's a great. Yeah. Don't be surprised by that. Don't be fearful of that either. I think it's the other thing with this is like, end is not a positive. I'll be pleased. Don't be there. Don't be pleased. We're begging you. I just don't want us to be afraid of this because we talked about earlier in the episode. The enemy is going to get his teeth kicked in. We know the end. And I think it can be really easy to go to a fear place when we get into revelation, when we get into the end times, when we get into the anti-Christ. It's really easy to go to a fear place and who is it? We see in Scripture is we know who wins in the end. We know who has the victory. We're on the winning side. Yep. And let's make sure who we're worshiping. Yes, because that's where I was going to take it. So then what's our response? Worship, first Corinthians 1557, thanks be to God who gives us, we don't deserve it, he gives us the victory. Yeah. There are Lord Jesus Christ. And look at all of this, talk about the nuances. Some of them they seem scary or startling, but we can worship, we can respond in gratitude. For believers we are secure in Christ. It's goodness. Amen. There's nothing to fear in this book. Like this is like you said multiple times. This is for our, the encouragement of the believer so that they could see a glimpse, you know, and it's a great book. And there's important things in it. In the end, we get to be on the winning side. Yep, that's right. Love that. All right, well, Elvi, thank you for joining us. Love it. Yes. Great to have you here. And thank you for taking a deep dive with us. We'll see you next week as we continue to read, understand, and love the Bible and the God who wrote it.