Zendaya and Robert Pattinson on Marriage and Secrets

In theory, I knew that this kind of thing can happen in any family. Upstanding citizens are always turning out to be secret criminals, and I wouldn't even call my cousin Alan an upstanding citizen. But it's one thing to know and another thing to understand. Alan, murder, me? What the hell was Alan thinking? From Serial Productions and The New York Times, I'm Em Gessen and this is The Idiot. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. Love, now and all. Do you fall in love? That's the love I love. Love is stronger than anything else. Feel the love? Love. And I love you more than anything. There's the love. Love. From The New York Times, I'm Anna Martin. This is Modern Love, and today on the show we have two guests, Zendaya and Robert Pattinson. The two of them star in a new movie called The Drama. They play an engaged couple who's about to get married. And when I watched this movie, I had two opposite reactions at once. On the one hand I was like, they are so romantic. And on the other hand I was like, I'm so stressed out by this, I need to put my hands over my eyes if I'm going to continue to watch this film. I think the reason The Drama hit me in this way is because it plays with a very real anxiety. This idea that we can know a partner so well, but we can never truly know everything about them. There's always a chance they're going to reveal something that takes us by surprise. Maybe even something pretty shocking. I met up with Robert and Zendaya in LA, and we talked about how this question, if you could ever really know someone, shows up in their movie and in their real lives. Stay with us. I'm Robin, and I am excited to open my crossplay app. I'm challenging John, my colleague at the New York Times. Robin played the word grunge, which has a G, which is four points. She got that triple word multiplier. I'm going to take fax and make it faxes for 30 points. I might just take another two letter word here with woe gets me at 23. I think this will put me back in the lead if my maths are mapping. I like to play it more from a strategic point of view and see where I can block the other player from scoring high. I'm pretty competitive. It's fun to beat friends and co-workers and also get to learn new words. Crossplay, the first two-player word game from New York Times Games. Download it for free today. I think he thinks he has this in the bag, but I'm not so sure. Zendaya and Robert Pattinson. Hello. Thanks for being here. Welcome to Modern Love. Thank you for having us. The two of you are in a new movie called the Drama. You plain engaged. I liked that. Every single question was the same though. Three, two, one. Yes. That didn't really work that time. You plain engaged. It's just natural. Totally. We won't force it, but I hope it happens again. You plain engaged couple, M.N. Charlie. They're so in love. They're perfect for each other. And then a week before the wedding, Emma reveals something that I'm not going to spoil. You have to see the movie to figure it out. But it causes Charlie to wonder if he even knows this woman at all. And suddenly this bond that felt so strong is full of chaos. There's all this doubt. Charlie's spiraling. Wondering if the wedding should still even happen. Emma's watching the movie. Wondering if the wedding should still even happen. Emma's watching Charlie being like, can we recover from this? Does this man even love me anymore? These are generally, I would say, not questions you want to be asking a week before the wedding. I've never been married, but I would too. But I can imagine. Doing my research. Let's start here. You spent a lot of time with these characters, Emma and Charlie. Do you like them as people? Would you be friends with them? There's a lot in that. Not in that, yes. Yeah, I mean, yeah. I mean, I got. Yes. Okay. That's a soft yes. There's a lot behind that yes. Unpack that for me. He's very easy to influence, which is always, I find, a little bit untrustworthy in a person. But at the same time, he does mean well. And he's trying to kind of temper himself against his weaker instincts. So I guess he's got potential to be my friend. He's easily influenced? Yeah. But yeah, and he's a romantic. And I think everybody who's a romantic is kind of slightly delusional and blind to lots of things. I like that. And the only way you can really be a romantic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's lean into it. Lean into it. There is this moment, the first time that your character, Charlie, first approaches Emma, he does it with a lie. He pretends to have read a book that Emma's reading. What do we think about this tactic? It feels so tough to pull off. And unnecessary. Right? This is what it feels like. It's like, why? It's high risk for someone who's like quite shy. Because it's the hard part that's going up and just starting the conversation. 100%. So it's kind of one of the other reasons why I don't really like him. Because he lied initially. He has a lie and it's also a very specific lie where it's kind of like, I need you to think I'm a certain type of person. And it's like, which, I guess it just comes out of insecurity. I guess it's quite endearing. I like him again. Oh my, you really will ask at the end. I don't want to hang out with him. Now Emma, how do you feel about this woman? Do you know what? I feel like I'd want to hang out with her because I think she needs more friends. Oh, she needs more genuine friends. Yeah, yeah. Tell her more about that. Yeah. And I say that because I think both the characters desperately want to be loved and accepted and seen in some kind of way. In many ways, I think she just has always wanted a sense of belonging. And to feel like she fits somewhere. And I think when she meets Charlie, she feels like she fits with this person. And this, oh, I can choose who I'm going to be and this is who I am now. And I can, you know, so much I think of her identity is in his life because we don't actually meet her own friends. That is so true. We meet his friends that are her friends. And, you know, she's acclimated herself to his life and his world and not to say that that's not true to her. Because I do think that this is the life that she loves and she feels like fits her and she feels safe in. And I think that's that safety that she feels ultimately ends up in making her feel safe enough to share maybe a little bit too much. And so I just think that, you know, she needs some of her own friends. I was going to say, so you want to hang with her out of pity? I mean, you're like, we got to have a girl's night. But you got, but you need, you know, I know, I'm making it. No, you want to hang with her because you want to, of course you do. And I was always like, dang, she doesn't have anyone else. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I thought that was indicative of where she's at in her life and kind of her vulnerability too and why the stakes of this marriage working out are so important to her. I was going to say, you know, I opened by saying Emma reveals this thing that she did in her past a week before the wedding. Yeah. And I'm curious for both of you, like that decision, do you think she should have told him earlier? Where do you come down on that? I don't know. It's a film, so it's like, if she told him earlier, maybe it wouldn't be a very good movie. You're like, no, because then I wouldn't have a job. Because it wouldn't be the week before the wedding. Totally, totally. No chaos and nothing for us to, you know. That's a very straightforward answer and I appreciate that. Yeah, but yeah, I don't know. And then I think that's the interesting thing with this film is, is there is a lot of, that is the discussion that you will leave with. The beauty, for sure. You know, it's like, is that something that you feel like you should talk to your partner about or do you feel like it was necessary to bring it up or, you know, you're able to kind of ruminate and chew on it for a bit and put yourself in the shoe of both of the characters. But well, would I have done that or would I have said that? Or what are you thinking? What are you thinking? Yeah, what are you seeing, Rob? I'm just thinking, it's kind of, it's like, I think it's interesting because it's, you want a romance to be this sort of, you want it to be an idealized romance. And if you want, like everybody kind of wants, you want something to be perfect. But if you knew everything about the other person, literally nothing is perfect. And so it's kind of like, do you want to, but also the feeling of thinking you found someone who's perfect and thinking it's a perfect relationship is so profound. It's addicting. Yeah. It's an ideal. Yeah. And it's kind of like, you don't want to let go of it, but also you can somehow, I guess the story is saying there is a way to kind of have it, but it is, it's that strange leap of faith. Like, and which is kind of, we've been talking about all this. It's like, we basically kind of on either side of the fence, which like, I need to know everything. Wait, I need to know about, yes, let's open up the debate. I'm sorry if this is trend territory for you, which first for us. Because I don't think Rob actually believes this. There's a rift here. I think Rob is just, you know, what's the difference? No, when someone starts telling me too much, I'm like, you need to reign. And then you love? Yeah. Wait, wait, what is the debate? It's just like, yeah, well, I'm into boundaries. I thought I really wanted boundaries. There are just things like, how much do you want to know about somebody before you like to marry them or something? Very little. And he doesn't want to know very much. Is that true? You're like, it's not fine. I think the more, if you're expecting chaos and surprises, you'll probably be happier in the long run. It's very unromantic. If you're just like, I want to know exactly what you're going to be every single day. It's like, that's so lame. It's gross. But like, okay, we're bubble, we're bubble. But in life, naturally, like we're going to grow and we're going to change. Like that's going to happen no matter what. So it's good to know someone at least at the core so that as they grow and as they change, you can be a part of that in some way. You know, it's like, you know where we're coming from. So you're saying you want to know as much as establishes kind of the ground rules. Don't this make sense? Of what kind of person someone is and getting to see them or getting to discuss or go through things together. You know, I think is, I mean, I feel like I'm biased because I've been able to grow up with the person that I love and like get to know them like through being literally a teenager to now. So it's like, of course we're going to change and we're going to grow and life is like whatever. But like, I still feel like there's like a bond or connection that you feel like you know someone at least enough to feel safe with them. You inevitably know someone a bit by just thinking of relationship with them. Of course. But I think it's the expectation of saying, I think you kind of you suffocate a relationship if you're like saying like, I need to know this. I need to know all the stuff about your past. I need to know everything about your past. Oh, I see what you mean by that. And the past has nothing to do with you. It's literally like it's kind of, I don't know. I'm kind of. I get that. But I also think that like if you feel safe in a safe in a relationship, then like, I don't, I would never want to be like, you have to tell me everything about your life. How would you know how many questions to ask? What is it? Like, I just mean more like, if you're, if you feel safe with somebody or like, hopefully you feel safe enough with me that you want to share. It also reveals your own insecurity. Yeah. If you're, if you're constantly saying, I need to know all the stuff about your past. Also, I kind of think the second you meet somebody kind of know which way the relationship is going to go. Like, I literally think that's an instant. Do you think you have a special ability to do that or everyone? I think everybody does. And we just don't listen to it? I think they do listen to it. Cause like when you, like, I think when, if you end up breaking up with someone or something happens, there's always that moment. I knew it was just going to happen. I think most people do. And I know, and you, I think, you know, the second you meet them, like, and you just choose to go. And some, and it's not necessarily a bad decision, but you know, you always know. What is it? Okay, I'm going to, I'm going to push you on this because I'm interested. When you have this knowing. Yeah, me too. Right? What does it feel like to you? Is it like a, ah-ha? Or is it like a body based sensation? What is that? Yeah, you can get, cause you can have the combination of a feel. Like you can get some, like you can have, you can be like very attractive someone. And also there's like some like fear or something at the same time. And it's like, oh, and that could be why you're attracted to them in the first place. But you know that fear will eventually have some, they will do something to you. It will come out sometimes. There's a reason your body is afraid of them. Yeah, I kind of, I kind of agree with that in some ways too, because I think sometimes like, um, at least in my personal experience, like I found that, you know, sometimes like people kind of like kind of get nervous around people, but there's a certain feeling that I, I was able to experience when I knew that this is my person because I didn't, I never, I don't feel nervous around that. I feel really peaceful and I feel really calm and I feel like, oh, I actually feel more nervous when I'm away from you than when I'm with you. That's really sweet. That's when I was like, ah, that's a good sign. That's the reason I'm listening to my, you know, intuition or body or whatever. We first met in an audition. So, so I was pretty nervous anyway, but he did make me feel calm. So can you tell me how I made you feel calm? Just by being a nice person, you know, by making me feel comfortable. I mean, like, it's like having to do a chemistry read for a big movie like that is like, oh, you know, you really want the job and all these kind of things. And yeah, she was, he was really lovely then. So I want to talk about these moments where we see, where we learn something new about a partner, where we see our partner in a new light. There's this scene in the movie that I find so relatable and probably because I live in New York, Emma and Charlie, they're crossing the street, a car almost hits them. Emma goes off on the driver. Yeah. And by the way, I was like, it was your right of way. You know what I mean? 100% throw that straight at me. Yeah. Okay. I'm not kidding you. I'm not kidding you. Thank you for doing it and not me. Charlie is looking at Emma like, wait, why? Why? Because Charlie's looking at Emma like, who is this woman? Yeah, I mean, he's very, he's very sensitive. He's a little over sensitive to that. I mean, it's kind of what the humor of it is. Because there's so, I mean, so many parts of the movie, he's reacting. And I mean, I guess it's how you always, when you're spiraling, suddenly everything seems crazy. And it's like, oh my God, like she's wearing a different hat. She's crazy. But the moment this, this scene felt like, you know, he's seen this other aspect of her and he's interpreting it differently because Emma at this point has revealed the secret. But I felt like I related to it because in not such a dramatic fashion, but in almost every relationship I've been in, I've had this moment where the person will do something and suddenly I have to kind of recalibrate what I thought I knew about them. And it doesn't have to be in a bad way. I'm curious if this resonates, if you've had a moment with someone you love, partner, family member, friend, where they do something and you see them in a different way. I think it happens like when you grow up and you start stop seeing your parents as just your parents. Totally. And just as human beings that met and like had you, you know, it's kind of like when that perception of, or I don't know, whatever it is kind of fades away and you go, oh, you guys are just people. And it happens, you know, it's like, for some people it happens younger, you know, it happens at different stages of your life, but really getting to understand your parents, but not from the context of them being your parents. And they can do no wrong. Yeah. Yeah. Or whatever that ideal or ideal of a parent is that you have in your head and just seeing them for the people that they are and also trying to have grace for them as human beings too. And remember that they're just, you know, they're just people as well. You know, they're like not superheroes and whatever they're, they're human beings. Yeah. Do you remember a moment when you had that realization about your parents? It can be even small, but do you remember a time when that occurred to you? I think probably like when, you know, just moving to LA and, you know, and me having to work and be the one that was working. And I think that kind of dynamic shift brought up a lot of things for my parents because now it's like you are now in a different dynamic with your parents and how you navigate that. I think was one of those moments like, oh, shit, okay, this is different because I'm just like a little kid anymore. Although I technically am. I'm doing it, you know, a very mature, you know, job now. I have a nine to five and I go to work every morning and I come home at night, but I also still have to like listen to my parents and they have to tell me to go to bed at time. You know, whatever. And so that you're like, whoa, whoa, that's weird now, you know, and trying to, I don't know, just, just like wrap your head around that little bit. That feels like a lot to navigate. Yeah, for sure. We'll be right back. We have this call up at the New York Times called tiny love stories. Okay. These are short, a hundred word love stories. And we've chosen some that feel very resonant with the day. Are they real love stories? They are. Yeah, yeah. They're true. They are true. People just randomly send them in. Yeah, voluntarily. Wow. This is a brave thing. It is a brave thing. It is a brave thing. If you send you one of these, you'll read them and then we'll respond to them. We'll react to them. How does that sound? First up, we have you, Zendaya. And please say the title and the author's name. Okay. First, the ugly then the beauty by Ali Patrilla. We met on an app. I chose my favorite brewery for our first date. When he ordered only water to drink while I enjoyed a few beers, I prodded. With neither hesitation or shame, he laid out his demons. Four years in recovery from heroin and alcohol addiction. Then I laid out mine. Ten years recovering from eating disorders. Within 15 minutes, we knew all of each other's ugly parts. We spent the rest of our time together discovering the beautiful ones. That's really sweet. What's coming up for you? I think that's really beautiful. You know, here's the thing. It's like everybody's love story is different. And some people feel comfortable sharing and feel like they can be vulnerable or feel like it's important for them to lay their cards out on the table right away. Some people are more uncomfortable with that. Some people it takes time for you to build the trust and break the walls down. But in a unique situation where it seems like this has worked for both of these people, where they feel like they were both able to share something equally of importance to them. And that was allowed them to bond and see each other and maybe help each other in many ways. Then I feel like that's really beautiful. And I hope they're happy. They're actually married. We got that update. Oh, wonderful. Do you think there's such a thing as disclosing too much of yourself too early? Yes. Yeah, I'm sure, yeah. Okay. Very strong response. Tell me about this. No, no, I'm saying such a thing. That's someone's story. Yeah. I think, do I necessarily feel like maybe the first time I meet someone depends on the person and who you know. And sometimes it takes time to get to know somebody. It's very controlling as well, manipulative. You are? No. Yeah. Rob! Yes. Wait, so tell me more about this. You had such a strong response. Yeah, I feel like everybody who does that, often or not everybody, but the vast majority of people who want to kind of overload you with kind of two personal information when you haven't really met them. It's like kind of, because it forces you into a certain position, to listen to them and you're like, and someone's like... What is that position? You can't... Oh no, I'm just going to sound so judgy. That's okay. I can't credit already. But I do think it's manipulative. Sometimes you can tell when someone's doing it, but sometimes if you're at a party and someone's doing something, it's like, it's kind of because you can't really tell like, blah, blah, blah, whatever. Forget that here. Yeah, so you think it's like it's sort of, it's putting you into a position where you have to receive? Yeah. Then why do you want to talk? Yeah, yeah, but it worked for them. Yeah, it worked. That's what I'm saying. Oh no, I'm not saying about these guys. This one's very nice. Yes. And again, they are married. They are married. They're, yes, okay, you're talking about at a party. Do you feel like you're the kind of person? It's on a date, it's totally different thing. Sorry, I was thinking about a party. I realized now it's a love story thing. Tell me about how you'd handle it on a date. If someone was opening up, like they are in this tiny love story. Yeah, it's like if someone, yeah, it's not just that the opening up is not just opening up. I think some of it, there's always so much more to it. Because I think most, I think it's a natural thing to be like wary of other people when you first met them. True, for sure. And so, so I don't know. But it'd be interesting. Sometimes, I've felt this happen to me before and sometimes you're like absolutely like so profoundly moved that someone's thought like, oh, I see something in you, which you are the person who I feel like I'm never up to. I trust you. Yeah. But if they're just opening up to everybody, I'm just like, blah, blah, blah. Robert, we have a tiny love story for you. If you don't mind reading this, the title and the author's name. And we'll discuss. There's a logic to love by Jack Simmons. As an engineer, I believe problems have logical solutions. To solve my relationship problem, I needed to structure it. Standing at my boyfriend's whiteboard with a marker and a flow chart I'd drawn, I asked some questions tracing his answers down the chart. He was happy, but wasn't sure he could fall in love with me. The chart said, break up. So we did. I went back to him, promising to love myself enough for both of us. It didn't work. We broke up again. Love is simple. The flow chart and your heart must lead to the same answer. Stay. Interesting. It's not where I thought it was going to go. I know, right? Okay. Well, tell me about that reaction. Well, are they saying that this particular flow chart kept going back to break up and in order for it to work, the end point can't be break up. It has to be stay. I think the flow chart said for them break up. And they did. But then they came back together, ignoring the flow chart. And then it didn't work. And so what he's saying is we should listen to the flow chart. That's what I'm saying. It has to say stay. Yes, it has to say you have to break up. Well, it sounds like his partner initially said that already. Said like, I'm going to let this flow chart check go. And then I'm going to ignore that you've drill in this flow chart and hope you come to your senses. Beyond the flow chart, I'm not going to say. He also said he was happy, but wasn't sure he could fall in love with me. Yeah. Oh, that's a heart. Oh, yeah. Kind of. What's making sense to you now? I mean, if someone says I wasn't, I'm not sure I can fall in love with you. I'm like, just keep it to yourself. You need to say, I got a job overseas. Sorry, but I, you're amazing. You have to, I have to go. You're like, no more charts. I'm not entirely sure what a flow chart is. Oh my God. That comes out now that you don't know what a flow chart is. Is that like when you like follow the line to like, pop seed needs to find her mom in the swimming pool? Like, who did you find? That's cool. Is that a maze? Okay. So no. So no, not exactly. A flow chart is very different. Very different. But they share some components that's thrown on my bone. A flow chart. I'm like, what is a flow chart now? Visual learning. Visual learning. It's like, if this, then this. Yeah. As he started drawing it, he should have realized how unattractive that is. Well, I feel like people make a lot of pro and cons lists for people, which is adjacent to flow chart. Have you ever been in a situation where you're so unsure about someone or something, some decision that you felt the need, you could have used a flow chart for a pro con list? I don't think I've used it in like a romantic situation, but I've definitely used some charts like to make some decisions. I'm a Virgo. There you go. Okay. I'm not like a chart, but I've definitely done some pro con lists. Really? Oh, for sure. Is this surprising to you? That's like a normal thing to do. It is. And if the pro con list, that weighs the con, you're like, okay. How do you make decisions, Robert? Shake your head around and then you see which is bigger, the other than that. You're like a magic eight ball. That's really fun. It's literally how it is. It could be very damaging to one's head though. It's a light shake. It's a light shake? Just a tiny light shake? Yeah, no, I definitely, yeah. Cause that's the thing is I feel like I'm very, I don't know, I overthink about a lot of things. So sometimes like you just pour out with all these thoughts. You're like, okay, maybe I just need to write it down. So yeah, sometimes that's, I find that helpful, but maybe not in this particular situation. Not in this particular, right. But I think, you know, there is an open communication and the answer was kind of there. And it's like, okay, well, maybe this isn't where I need to be. I actually think this goes back to your understanding of really tuning in to the truth of someone. This is their way to figure out, you know, the outcome of their relationship. They had to break up, but they didn't listen. I mean, I'm literally like, when you're drawing the flow chart, you know. Yeah, okay. The flow chart kind of knows. That's fair. Not only are you drawing the flow chart, but then you're showing it to your partner. You're trying to get a reaction. You're trying, all you're trying to do is say like, I want you to say you love me. That's the thing. That's the only reason you're doing it and you know he's not going to do it. Like, you know they're not going to do it. Yeah. If nothing else. I say that's fair. Yeah. I also am happy that we could tell you what a flow chart is, even though I'm not so sure you really know. I know, I still kind of went in one ear and out. But you're just like, any chart, any chart whatsoever. When you start to have to bring out a chart in a relationship, it's over already. Yeah. Okay. There you go. To be fair, I think Charlie would be a flow chart guy. He's trying to justify, he's definitely writing pros and cons. He's like thinking like, I think, well, he kind of, he literally kind of does, I mean, it's literally what the movie is. His pros and cons list. I think it's a drawing. It just feels like, yeah, it's just a lot of effort. We should have more questions about flow charts. I'm realizing like there's a lot here. It's very rich. This movie is about marriage. You both are in very public relationships. There has been recently much speculation about marriage for you. I'd be remiss not to ask as a journalist if there's anything you want to say about people wondering about whether you're married. Yeah. And I will say just a small plug, you know, if there was a place to say some news, it might be the modern love podcast for the near term. Well, I just feel like for me, it's like there is a level of like a parasocial like investment in my personal relationship, which I understand. And I do know that like, I am aware that I'm a public person. And so is he. And I'm also aware that like we've grown up in front of people and we've done movies where we like fall in love with each other. So it's like, I really do understand that. And I don't want to dismiss that like stay out of my business or whatever. But in a lot of ways, I also am a very private person and I try my best to be able to have things for myself and for him as well. And so we do our best in general to not hide ourselves from the world, but just to, I think, preserve things for ourselves so that we can maintain that joy just within ourselves and our loved ones and our family. So that's kind of like my broad way of just saying I hear it, but I also like my own little boundaries of what I like to bring up and talk about, but then also what I'm also willing to share. I think that's the most beautiful way to say no comment. I respect it. No, I mean, I'm just, I'm speaking honestly from that perspective. But yeah, I just, you know, I just try to find the balance in the middle there. Understood. Any comment? I wish I could ask literally like, practice. It was really good. And it was true. Yeah, I mean, I swear I didn't chart this. This is just, I'm just answering your questions. I didn't know if you would answer, like ask that. So I think thank you for telling me. Of course. I want to land us on the set. We've been talking about what it means to really know someone we love, what happens when we don't know as much as we thought. So I want to close on this idea. I wonder if you could share a time recently where you felt very known by someone in your life, very seen for who you are. This is an earnest question, I know, but I wonder if you could humor me with an earnest answer. Good luck. You gotta try. You gotta try. I'm known and seen. I mean a lot. I feel like my partner in a lot of ways knows me better than I know myself. Well, no, it's just kind of to the point where she'll kind of have like quite psychic abilities about things. But, um, Does that feel good? Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Good. She doesn't have a choice. No, I like it. I don't even make that. Um, and my kid as well, like it's kind of, well, I don't know if she knows me as well. He just pushes it because there's an answer and then there's a, well, well, I mean, there's always a two, there's always an other side to the coin. Of course. But like, but the, uh, yeah, seeing, it's a different, yeah, when, when your kid is looking at you as a different type of knowing as well, because it's, it's knowing without any, uh, and obviously they have desires from you, but it's funny when they're just, it's just pure curiosity and, you know, when you conceive it, you know, they don't have, they don't have a single issue with you. It's just great. How freeing. It's so nice. They're not pissed. They're not mad. They're just like, oh, I guess they are. They're crying. Is it going to swing? That's it. I'm like, it's the kind of relationship I understand. It will probably get more complicated than swing though, right? It might. It might. Maybe. Maybe. What about you? Last time you felt known? I feel like, I feel really, no, I feel, I feel really known by like my, my partner, by like my, my friends, by my family. Like I do feel like the core people around me, I feel very, I think that's what I'm happiest is when I'm with all of those people. It's just like, I feel like I'm not thinking so much and, you know, trying to think about what I'm going to say before I say it. Like right now. Um, but you know what I mean? It's like you're, you, you just, you know, they, they know you, they see you and you feel, you feel safe and you feel like, and, and also it's just like they see, they see me as the adult I am now, but like my siblings also see me as their little sister. All the past versions of you stacked on top of each other. Yeah. And, and, and that love and that care or that protection or that whatever that looks like from them is still very, very true. You can feel it. You know, so that's special. Robert Pattinson Zendaya. Thank you so much for this conversation that was at times a debate. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. But ultimately he agreed with you. Ultimately he agreed with you. Thank you so much. Thank you. The modern love team is Amy Pearl, Davis land, a Lisa Gutierrez, Emily Lang, Jen Poyant, Lynn Levy, Riva Goldberg and Sarah Curtis. This episode was produced by Riva Goldberg and a Lisa Gutierrez. It was edited by Lynn Levy and Jen Poyant. Tom Hopper recorded this episode at Quixote Studios and our mix engineer was Daniel Ramirez. We had production help from Paula Newdorf, Sophie Erickson, Brooke Minters, Tom McEvelly, Nick Krause, Jackson Montemayor and Caleb Haas. Original music in this episode by Alicia B. E. Toup, Diane Wong and Dan Powell. Dan also composed our theme music. The modern love column is edited by Daniel Jones and Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects. If you'd like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to the New York Times, we've got the instructions in our show notes. I'm Anna Martin. Thanks for listening.