All right. Hey, everybody. It's Tim Miller with The Bulwark. Here's my buddy, Andrew Egger. He writes our Morning Shots newsletter. Check that out at TheBullwark.com. We're here to discuss Zoran Mamdani's triumphant visit to the Capitol and to the White House and analyze it. It's a confusing visit. Andrew, I want to start here. Do you know this about me that I take like an eight-minute nap most days? Do you know that about me? No, that's new lore. Yeah, it's my And Mimi did it. And it's like a true power nap. Or some days it's even like a minute and a half. Like I can just kind of do this. If you're the president, you can't do it. People start to call you sleepy Tim or whatever. I can do it as a podcaster. I just kind of do this. But like I'd say once every three weeks, it doesn't work. And I doze off. And then I just wake up in like a stupor like an hour later. And I look down at my phone and I have a million messages. And I'm like, oh, my God, what did I do? And that happened to me today. And I woke up and looked at my phone and I saw this picture of Zoran with Trump. Welcome back to Earth. And I'm like, I was like, is this fake? I was like, is this AI? Is it photoshopped? Like, what is, is it real? And, and I thought initially I was like, it's fake. And I'm like, the cobwebs are shaking off. And then I watched it, you know, I scrolled more and I saw, no, this is real. This is real. This is our real. this is earth one that we're on it's a real picture of a fake newspaper so i can see where in addition to being you know half asleep still i can see where your confusion came in but i don't know we should probably take this from the top right i mean what an afternoon for for the mayor of new york yeah i i was confused about it so basically he comes down to new york on a secret trip some of the news leaks out this morning uh to meet with trump um the the gist of this meeting i guess is that it's a follow-on from his first trip where trump said to him hey or he said to trump hey i want to come with some ideas um and he came back and they met again and the ideas are you know basically about building more housing plus he had a few other requests about people that have been wrongly jailed by our government i would unlike last time we don't have like a rollicking oval office press conference video to show you like we just have that clip um this from Sungmun Kim, who's a reporter at the AP. She says that basically Trump had asked Zohan to return with ideas to build big things. He came back with a massive housing proposal. Mamdani's team created these mock headlines we showed you. According to Mamdani's team, Trump was very enthusiastic. Mamdani pushed for the release of a Columbia student detained today. Trump calls him later to say she's been released. mom donnie gave suzy wowes list of four other palestinian activist students he wants help with okay so that's the that's a but one-sided you know i'm on donnie you know sides readout basically but uh you know trump looks happy in the picture what a weird weird weird time to be alive i mean like i i i'm excited to kind of chew this over because i i still don't really know quite what i make of all of this me neither just like i was confused on whether it's real i just want to say up front there's a like a there are two wolves inside of me and one is like yeah so Ron like yeah girl like you did it like you cracked the code and there's another part of me it's like I've got some worries it's very funny it's funny to see the degree to which Zoran kind of understands Trump just at a very kind of basic level. He understands that Trump, first of all, is always willing to take the meeting. And almost it's easier to be a guy who he considers a far out there lefty wacko than it would be if he were a neoconservative Republican. I mean, Trump, the distance is what makes the possibility of the meeting kind of attractive and fascinating to Trump. And then when you get in the meeting, He knows exactly how to sort of flatter him and, you know, paint him, like reflect him back to himself in this light that makes Trump very enthusiastic about working together. And you remember like before Zoran was even elected, Trump was threatening to like cut off all funding, all federal funding to the city of New York if he got in there. I mean, like that was the status quo going in. And in just two of these meetings, he has instead seemingly at least got Trump like interested in the theory of massively increasing federal investment in New York in this like, but you'd be a hero kind of way. Right. I mean, and it's just it's it's fascinating, if nothing else, to watch that dynamic play out in real time. Okay, I want to go over the aesthetics of the picture, and then I want to talk about the things that I like about Zoran did and then my concerns. We'll just go through each section, and maybe at the end we'll find some understanding. Maybe we'll be just as confused. I don't know. Aesthetically, the picture, two things that stand out to me. Zoran just has so much swag. Like, could he have painted a better picture for himself? He's got this, like, serious smirking. He's very mugging Trump. Yeah, is he mocking the president? He's frame-mogging Trump. He is. Look at him. I mean, he just, he looks very cool. I don't, as a gay man, I can do that. I don find someone that handsome like he not really for me particularly like objectively I get it But like he looks hot in this picture kind of It just this he got a smirk Like he sort of feels like he dominated Trump Trump, meanwhile, I hate to do this to my father, so I apologize to him. But we had this running joke in my house for years. My father's a big cyclist, and he loved Lance Armstrong. They did a picture together, like right before the height of Lance's doping scandal and all this, when Lance was still like the guy. and there was my dad who's kind of a stoic man serious man, successful man in this picture with Lance Armstrong where he is smiling a bigger smile than I've ever seen and Lance doesn't want to be there and you can tell Lance is the alpha in the situation that's Trump, Trump is my dad when have we seen Trump smile this wide you know, I mean, Trump is giddy no, giddy is the word, it's a kid in a candy store type smile, it's very strange So he's been totally mogged by Zoran. So that's where we're at aesthetically. Do you have any other notes on the photo? I guess on the aesthetics, and I don't want to jump ahead because I wanted to ask you this as far as not just the aesthetics is concerned, but like when you compare this, for instance, to when Gretchen Whitmer was in the Oval Office, essentially she's doing exactly the same thing that Zoran was there to do today, right? I mean, she's there to get money for her state. It's like, let's be adults about this relationship. you know just because i'm a resist lib doesn't mean you have to you know yank a bunch of money it's in the midst of doge in the midst of all that stuff and yet the aesthetics were so bad coming out of that meeting with her kind of huddled in the back of the room holding up the folder over her own face you know just plainly like so sort of ashamed to be there i think that's that might actually i'm kind of discovering that i believe this in real time that was the real thing with zorn he just looks comfortable he looks like i'm here for my own reasons on my terms uh and and you shouldn't have a problem with that either even though like you all my fans out there really don't like donald trump and there's also no sense that he's sacrificing his principles really to be there is the other thing that's different from gretchen like it kind of gretchen kind of felt like she was there to like oh i'm gonna meet you in the middle i'm gonna cut a deal and like she's there also when the chris krebs thing happens trump's like going after krebs you know and signs an executive order and she's hot right like i don't it felt like in addition to her seem like the weaker party giving in to Trump. Like it also felt like there was, I don't know, that she was more malleable. It doesn't really, at this point, Zoran doesn't really feel malleable at this point. I have a caveat to this. I'll get you on my negatives, but yeah. Some of that was just like she was there and he took the moment to turn into that. He called the press in when she wasn't expecting it. And like Zoran in theory was opening himself up to the possibility of that and Trump chose not to do it because he sort of like is fascinated by the bromance. Like Trump could have called people in and said, hey, Zoran, perfect timing. You're here. We were just about to announce that we're sending ICE into Springfield. Yes, exactly. You know what I mean? And then it's like it would have been interesting to see how he handled that. He opened himself up to that risk, but Trump chose not to take it. And I guess it worked out well for Zoran that he didn't. So back to the positives. I think that, as I said, you know, the fact that Zoran doesn't seem like he's doing this from a place of weakness, doesn't seem like he's sacrificing anything. that's that's a good about it i'm a yimby so on the policy level like this is like a triple win for me it's like it's unbelievable like the yimbys i have gained the most ground of any faction uh besides the nationalist blooded soil populace i think um recently like the yimby like the yimby we're so hot right now okay like you know there was few it was a minority of the democratic party and almost no republicans who were yimby two minutes ago and now all of a sudden like zora The DSA is Yimby. The socialist governors, yeah. Socialist mayor is Yimby. The president is Yimby-ish. So that's good. Big win for Yimby's. I like that. I was on the Yimby's for Harris call. It was like me, Wes Moore, a couple California state legislators. So a big moment for the Yimby's. That's positive. the release of the student you know shows that it's like that's a it's trump that is giving in you know again if you're just like looking at this at zero sum right it's it's a at some level it's a concession at least from trump like rather than saying like no my dhs can do whatever they want these massless goons so like on the policy side it feels like they're real concessions if you just look at it through that prism and not the political prism of like what the implications are of this i think it's an unadulterated win yeah and i think that also speaks i mean we were just talking about the the degree to which zohan really does seem to kind of understand trump as a person like the the specific asks i think really underscore that as well i mean the the positive ask of like let's cooperate on like building a bunch of new housing in new york i mean like that's like Trump's whole life. That's his bread and butter, right? Is the real estate developer sort of ethos. And I mean, he loves that part of his own narrative. So that part's good. But then also making the negative ask, making the, hey, could you actually like do me a favor here, be releasing one of these student activists, one of these things that Trump doesn't, I mean, all that stuff that Trump has been doing, Trump cares a lot about, you know, DHS being out there, maximizing his own power in this way. But all the like student activist arrest stuff was really more of like a concession to you know extremely pro factions within his party And like you know the Marco Rubio of the world uh and the the and the Mike Huckabee of the world and not something that he really felt on like a deep personal level himself right So that too is like kind of a smart move for him to get in there while he has the mano a mano time and be like, hey, what about releasing these couple of activists? I agree with that. And I should just say for the non-nerds, the YIMBY is an acronym for yes in my backyard. Like, yes, build, build, build, build, build more houses. Don't give in to the people who are concerned about traffic or parking spots or whatever. Anyway, so we generally agree that Zoran mogged him and that the policy outcome is good. So those are the good parts. Here are my concerns. One of them is like a political concern and one of them is just something that gives me the ick. Which one do you want first? Let's hit the political concern first. Okay, here's my political concern. Zoran has a lot of power with a certain demographic of person that I'm just going to stereotype right now. It's a young person that doesn't really like either party, that really doesn't like the democratic establishment, you know, that feels like they've been left behind. And they like Zoran because part because of his position on Gaza, part because of his policies, but also just because he seems an outsider. He's not part of the corrupt establishment. that's like the same pitch that trump gives to his side right that he's an outsider he's not part of the corrupt establishment and trump gained a lot of non-ideological voters who don't pay attention that closely to the stuff they liked the idea that trump felt like he wasn't part of this club that they don't like and so i worry about a political outgrowth like this is good for zoron But it's also kind of good for Trump and the and the and the mag and those mag some element of MAGA. Right. That it almost gives some credence to this idea. Like me and Trump can work together because we're outsiders. Right. We're not part of that corrupt establishment. And that is wrong, like unbelievably wrong and unbelievably dangerous. Trump could not want to be more in league with the establishment and with the oligarchs and with the billionaires. But he manages to maintain this patina of being an outsider because he was a reality show guy. And I worry – he's a lame duck, so at some level, this doesn't matter that much. But I just worry that there's a certain type of person that is watching this. And they're like, yeah, I am kind of a Zoran Trump voter. I like the fact that they're both outsiders, that they're not part of that corrupt Schumer, McConnell, Jeffries, APAC establishment. And that worries me. And I were and I and I think that at some level, it's kind of incumbent about upon Zoran at some point to like distance himself from that notion. I have a hard time parsing through my own thoughts about this myself. I do think that you mentioned the lame duck thing. I think that matters quite a bit to this. I mean, like Trump has shown us over and over again that he has no power to transfer whatever mojo he has to any other Republican. Right. There's like I cannot imagine a voter who, because of a personal bromance, you know, between Trump and Zoran Mamdani is like, you know what, that actually does make me more likely to pull the lever in 2028 for J.D. Vance or Marco Rubio. You know what I mean? Like I don't it's it's genuinely hard for me to imagine that those neurons connecting psychologically for anybody. Right. And the other thing that I would say is that and again, I'm I'm I'm really just kind of trying to figure out how I feel about this stuff. The fact that he is, you know, a mayor rather than a governor, the fact that he is a new person on the scene. He can't run for president. Yeah. Yeah. That Trump did couch this stuff in such cataclysmic terms for the city of New York. Like I I don't know. I mean, I I am the farthest person to say like any Democrat should be buddying up to Trump. I mentioned this earlier too, but it's like the fact that he is so far out on the left, like it gives him almost like a weird permission structure to do it, much more so than centrist Democrats for almost the same reason that like, you know, people who are like on the center right need to like cling to Trump extra hard to try to get any of their policy stuff done. whereas it's the true lunatics out there it's like the candace owens is of the world who are like totally comfortable uh like like breaking with him on this that or the other thing because they they like know where they stand right so i i don't know it's it's i don't know how to parse it i i'm not going to fault him for like going and trying to get a bunch of housing uh built in new york because i like it like you said before i'm i am completely like me neither i just want to do a counterfactual for this point like because i've already you already see this on social media from the big Zoran fans, which is why is he so much better at this than Schumer and Jeffries? And it's like, well, wait a minute. Let's just take the same picture and put Jeffries in it, right? Put Jeffries in it. He's also in New York. Jeffries can look swaggy sometimes. He's, you know, he's got a cool look about him. And I wake up from my nap and that is the picture. Like it is a five-a-long fire. I mean, like Jeffrey, the speakership, he might not keep this. You know, he might not become speaker if they win next year. People would be going insane on him on social media. They'd be like, look, you you buddied up to Trump in exchange for some houses. Like, really? Like, when it's our democracy on the line. Right Like people would be filleting Jeffries if he did that And again so that because they have different jobs Part of it is a different jobs But like I think that got to be frustrating like politically for the Democrats like the more mainstream Democrats that they like people like why don you do this Like Zoran is doing it. It's like, well, if I did what Zoran was doing, you guys would crush me. You know, so unfortunately, life is unfair. And Zoran has swag. And as you mentioned, he has the benefit of having these more being more on the extreme side of the party. So there's more credibility. but uh it's like that's real and that and i and i think that is a that has got to be a frustrating political reality for you know more of the you know kind of leadership of the democratic party in dc i think you'd have a hard time like plausibly arguing that it comes down to really anything ultimately other than juice right i mean like like zoran has it and hakeem and chuck do not and and therefore you know it the second they step into the oval office they are like just sucked into Trump's aura, right? And then they become just sort of an accessory to him. Whereas, as we were talking about at the top, that just wasn't what the aesthetics of this first picture looked like. And maybe that's like an insane rubric on which to grade any sort of actual political action. But am I wrong that this is basically what it comes down to, how these people are having these reactions to this meeting? No, let's just say it's juice. It's swag. The vicular gets it. Unfortunately, sometimes that's just what our politics are. Here's the part that gives me the ick and it kind of relates to the jeffries thing like i imagine there's a person out there this person out there that is watching this right now that is like they're about to roll their eyes because like tim you don't do this again they're like tim i'm so upset at you over your take that the hockey team wasn't a big deal because donald trump is a threat to the to our society into the country and he wants to be an authoritarian and you can't give him anything you can't give him one inch you can't get on a phone call with him you can't laugh at his jokes and like i that's not a great you know i've disagreed with that take but i that is a rational view it's hard to match that rational view with also zoran's mogging him you know because it's like and zoran is so great for doing this like there is like a level where if you do believe the donald trump is the scale of the threat it's like is it worth it for the houses and i my real what I really come down to is like it's kind of a tough call like it's not that easy of a call and I think that like the you know for if anybody was going on and being like fuck you Zoran I'd be like that's a little much but also the for the people are like this is really unambiguously the right thing for him to do it definitely was for the Columbia student that was released you know but like it's not easy it's not an easy call like Trump is dangerous if if this picture and this behavior gives him any juice while he still has three years left to create problems that's not good you know and it's like that's the part of this that is really i my as i'm saying this all out loud i think i'm deciding when i'm coming down on the side that zoran did the right thing but you know because this seems kind of like a petty complaint but i think it's not it's not a crazy complaint i totally see where people are coming from if that's the way that they feel about it. I think to me, the thing, the danger that Zoran opens himself up to, like if this thing sort of like progresses, like the pressure on him to like, you know, start actually saying some like meaningfully like flattering things about Donald Trump, like everybody else does to get anything out of him everywhere in the country all the time, that's going to grow, right? I mean, it does not seem likely that Trump will continue to let this thing like tip Zoran's way, purely out of like, huh, it's kind of weird that this socialist wants to be my friend and he's like a fun guy and all that. Like that doesn't seem likely to like last, right? And so if Zoran does actually start, you know, doing like the Eric Adams thing where he's like actively sort of like helping the president out and like saying nice things about his policies, saying like flattering things about him as the president and personally, I would have a very different take. I mean, then you're aiding and abetting like this very, very bad, bad, bad president. He didn't do that at all. today. He just tweeted out the picture. He said, I had a productive meeting with the president. I'm excited to get to work building housing in New York. Like he gave Trump nothing on that. He tweeted out the picture that makes him look good and Trump look strange, you know, like, like, and, and to the extent that he can continue to sort of like suspend gravity and, and keep this relationship where it is right now, whatever. I mean, cool. Like get a lot of housing built in New York, Zoran. Why not go nuts? I don't think that that is necessarily very sustainable, but we're not at the point yet where I'm where I look at that and I'm like, no, you you sold your soul to make this happen. I'm coming down as pro. We've talked it out. We did how many minutes? We had 23 minutes, 23 minutes. And it took me that long. It took the cobwebs had to shake loose. But I think that, yeah, I mean, I think that he gave up nothing. I hope that, you know, he makes sure to be very clear with people about the fact that him and Trump aren't anti-establishment pals going after the corrupt oligarchs. I hope that comes down the line but I don't know. It seems like another win for Z. What a world we're in. Okay, that's Andrew Edgar. I'm Tim Miller. Subscribe to us on this feed and get Andrew's newsletter at thebullark.com and who the hell knows what surprises will be in store when I wake up next.
