Pistons-Hornets Brawl, the NBA’s Loser Mentality, and Daryl Morey's Comments on Jared McCain | Real Ones

what's popping real ones logan murdoch here howard beck and rajah bell in a bit a great show for you guys today we got into the world star moment that happened in charlotte between the pistons and the hornets we get into tanking and how that is kind of tanking the league at this point? And what are the remedies to solve just the blatant losing and the losing mentality that we find ourselves having as a league and in the NBA? And then we get to your mailbag questions, which are really fun. Before we get to the episode, though, I want to make a quick announcement that me and Howard Beck are going to be judging the NBA G League dunk competition on Saturday. You can catch that on the NBA app and we're going to have a blast with it. There are going to be other judges that are going to be announced soon, but me and Howard are going to be doing it. And I'm very, very excited about that. Also, another bit of housekeeping. We're going to have two more episodes dropping this week for real ones. A two parter that we're going to roll out on Thursday and Friday, and then we're going to have one next week. So be on the lookout for that. Got a lot of content going for you guys as we get into All-Star Weekend. So excited to see you guys very, very soon. All right. Tap in. Chris, play the theme music. What's popping? Real ones. Logan Murdoch here. Roger Bell there. Howard Beck is between two ferns. This is real ones. it's just one fern and i don't think it's a fern it it looks like an olive tree but like a fake olive tree i don't even know what an olive tree looks like but there's little things on here that look like olives on the thing tree next to me you got the phone bank you got the phone bank in la right now spotify hq let's get it love it here yeah yeah man it's gonna be fun i will be joining you there in just a few hours. But before that, we are here to talk about fighting and tanking. I want to talk about fighting first. Last night, we had a bit of a brouhaha. Not quite a brouhaha like in Roger's Day, but a brouhaha nonetheless, where Jalen Duren and Musa Diabati had some back and forth. Diabati got mushed in the face, then did the thing where he tried to rush Duren and fake throw a punch but didn't actually throw any types of anything and then miles bridges gets into the mix um he says some words tries to get in on the action it gets de-escalated and then miles bridges sees uh jaylen duran on the other side of the court tries to fight him again um and then out of nowhere but not really out of nowhere because you knew it was coming isaiah stewart comes off the bench and tries to just get into the fight get into the mix and um we had our first world star moment of the season guys thoughts what do we think about the fight and the brouhaha in charlotte by the way hornets nine game winning streak snapped um i i guess i'll go i mean that was a pretty significant uh as far as nba fights go uh fight there were from what i could count multiple punches thrown um multiple like flare-ups of the situation you had guys coming in off the bench uh not just in the capacity that like boris de al and amari stoudemire did when they fucking suspended them and then we lose it by stop raj is not still better i digress i didn't even bring it out i didn't bring that out i digress Not even in that capacity, but like coming off of the bench to further, you know, instigate and escalate the situation. In terms of NBA fights, A, I thought it was a – there were some punches thrown. Like I don't know how many were connecting. I was trying to like get better angles. I couldn't really see that. Diabate was like – he was out of his mind. you know they they they've wrestled him to like a standstill multiple times and he broke loose still trying to chase like it was pretty entertaining and i think there's going to be a lot of meat on the bone there for for the nba you know whatever their whatever their board is now that decides and doles out fines and and and punishments in terms of suspensions there's going to be a lot to parse through for them jupes is there yeah jupes oh i didn't know okay jupes that's what's the new joe dumars yeah there we go who was your who was your favorite what was favorite moment of this, Howard? What was your favorite moment of the crash out of the fight? My favorite moment was, so you guys, as you know, I'm here in LA early for All-Star Week because I'm working with Sports Business Classroom. And it was Bobby Marks, who's leading Sports Business Classroom, who I just see staring at his phone when we're at this reception last night. And he's like, oh my God, you see this Pistons fight? I'm like, what Pistons fight? So like Bobby's giving me the play-by-play, then like I'm watching it all on his phone. And we're both just like marveling at this because we've both been around long enough to have seen the NBA go from a time when fights back in Raj's day were a lot more significant and out of control to the current era where we just don't see stuff like this very often anymore, if at all. And immediately, of course, your mind's going to, you know, Isaiah wasn't even in the game, right? Isaiah Stewart was not in the game. So that's even worse, right? Because we have rules about leaving the bench, And those rules are there for a reason, as Raja knows personally. So he not only left the bench, but he was like one of the biggest defenders in this whole thing. So there's those layers of it. Teams these days do a really great job between having, it used to be like you had a security guy. Now they've got like a mass security contingent, right? They've got an apparatus. It's an apparatus. An apparatus team. and between all the security guys and all the assistant coaches and the trainer and the equipment manager and the assistant traveling secretary there's enough people to wrangle everyone before it gets out of control and guys have learned over time because they saw boris deo back in the day or they saw you know whatever the knicks and charlie warden whatever back in the day they know you don't leave the bench cardinal rule isaiah stewart violating it very spectacularly last night but in general between guys not leaving the bench and the whole security apparatus wrangling everybody else guys get separated pretty quickly most of the time these days you don't you just don't see this you don't see something where it looks like oh shit this looks out of control this is chaos that was chaos and it spilled you don't want to see it spill into the stands and it looked like like i haven't seen a good um replay of this part of it maybe you guys have like did any fans get crushed in all this because it looked like it did spill into the front row a bit. And that's another one that the league is always on alert for. You do not put the fans in harm's way. So there are a lot of components here for James Jones and Adam Silver and everybody else at league headquarters to sort out. They're going to have an awfully busy day today on a day that they are all either already here in L.A. or traveling for All-Star. So between this and a thousand other things going on, tough week for the league office. just a little wrinkle just a little wrinkle i would have been fascinated how does isaiah stewart not come out um and and and been a maniac about that how uh james would have handled that because james was on that team with a little bit of perspective in that situation having had it happen to him and a team he was on like if isaiah stewart or anyone else for that matter who might have been on the court i couldn't see the wide angle i didn't see who might have just you know, cross that line. I would have been interested to see how James handled that. But as it was, I mean, he did not just wander onto the court spectating. He was, uh, and let me just say, I just, yeah, he charged. And let me just say this, those teams that are in place with security, this just tells you where most NBA scuffles, uh, are in terms of like, uh, a scale of one to 10 on how angry and how much people want to get down. It doesn't matter how much of a team that you have in place. if someone really wants to be about that action and get to that fight, you see what happened last night. It's very, very difficult, no matter who you have out there, to wrangle an incensed human being that's that size. It's virtually impossible. But most times, you really don't want to get at it. Well, not even just that, man. But even Diabate, even Diabate. That's what I was going to say. They couldn't hold him. bro did you see the look on jared jack's face when diabate came running towards durin the second time around jared jack got in front of him and was like oh shit there were like there were a few funny moments in that way but like god bless jared jack who like was just like a human shield but he was like what the fuck man come on please dude fortunately diabate just went he got i think he got wrangled again and they like they had like five dudes on him on the baseline like you aren't going anywhere there was like a human shield after he got it uh got around jared jack um now that we got the serious part can i just like just talk about some of the hilarious moments that happened throughout this thing just like legitimately like funny now that we're got the serious stuff number one that i thought was funny was the way the the uh hornets announcer throughout the whole time was like um was doing a play-by-play of the suspensions that isaiah stewart was about to get because it was like oh he's not going to all-star oh wait he's wait he's he's definitely not going to play the game after all-star he's definitely oh he's going to be gone for a long time right and at the same time saying miles bridges got some good punches at the same exactly at the same Miles Bridges who escalated this fight to where it was. And then my second favorite moment was somebody caught. This is a be it Nick Carbani. I think he was the one from one of the local news stations that got the camera on Isaiah Stewart in the bowels of the Charlotte arena. And Isaiah Stewart is caught saying, you're not expecting me to say it. Stay on the bench. What the fuck was I drafted Detroit for? incredible i know also we're not supposed to glorify violence and we're supposed to you know frown and all this stuff but that's that's legitimate i'm gonna listen i i get he broke the rules and he's gonna be suspended for a minute but you can make the case isaiah stewart was defending his teammate right like he saw that miles bridges was out here trying to fight during at the complete other side of the court it was like yo you're not gonna do this and that is his role, right? No matter what you guys, like what we think about him as a player and stuff, people in that locker room like him and he has a very clear role, which he knew. He clearly knew the history of the Detroit Pistons when he got drafted by them. He clearly knew that he got the baton from Rick Mahorn and all the other guys from Detroit of yesteryear. He knew his assignment, okay and he's probably going to take the suspension and define with a smile like oh all jokes aside all jokes aside i know it's the you're attacking the hilarity of it right and and that is funny but to to to to bring some seriousness into that that means a lot when when you and you're not protecting someone in that instance um that's smaller than you like jaylen duran is a is a very large human being. What you're saying is it's my job to protect any of these dudes on my team. And that goes a long way, dude, like not just in the locker room, but as it as it as it projects to other teams coming into your building, thinking that they can push you around and and, you know, fuck with your stars in any capacity. Like, don't get that twisted. That's that's there's real value in that. Now it's going to cost him a lot of bread. But, you know, what that means to a team, especially especially a team that hopes to win some games and has some high-end stars like hopes to win some playoff series like that's valuable so this is right and wrong at the same time though i'd say raja like on i get it as a human matter and as as a matter of just like teammates and what you need to do to look out for your guys right this is this is what bonds a team together sometimes i mean you don't want to like there are a lot of things you don't need fights to bond a team together but i understand exactly what you're saying about what that will mean to his teammates and in that locker room and that maybe it's worth however many games and lost pay is going to go along with that as a consequence but the impulse to say i gotta stand up for my guy i gotta protect my guy that's my teammate out there is what got us the bench clearing brawls of the 90s and early 2000s that led to all of the new rules about leaving the bench and all this stuff anyway like the whole point of this is yes we understand everyone's got a human impulse and as a, as a teammate and as a competitor to go and get into the fray because you want to protect your guy, but too many people doing that. You're not all peacemakers. Now you're, you're escalators. Right. And so this just feels like one of those cases where Isaiah Stewart is both right in, in, in, in your terms as a teammate, but still wrong in the big picture here, because this is how things escalate and get out of control. Oh, make no mistake. Like he's, he's once we've started fighting, everyone's wrong. I mean, not everyone's wrong, but like that in and of itself is wrong, right? We don't want to be at that point. Yeah. And I'm not, I'm, I'm not saying that, you know, raising my kids, I would tell them to fly in off the bench and go try to fight. Like I usually tell mine, Hey man, you know, if, if you're not already on that court, don't come flying in, you know, because of the suspensions, even in high school and stuff that can take place. Right. Like, but what I'm saying to you is if someone has made the choice to do that and they deem that their role on a team right or wrong um that is a that is a safe kind of feeling for people on that team sure that are bigger stars maybe or carry more weight offensively or are targets more often by the other team defensively in terms of game plans or cheap shots knowing that you got somebody like that that will hold you down and is not putting up with any shit, it's a good thing. It's a good feeling to have at times. Not saying that he, you know, we want that. We definitely don't want that. But you told me I could have a team with an enforcer that would have my back at all times or have a team that didn't have that. Give me the team with it. Yeah. It takes a lot of pressure off too. I mean, we both covered teams, Howard, with guys that are shit starters is one way to put it, but also just guys that are going to stand up for their teammate in that way. And it takes a lot of pressure off the stars, right? So the fact that they know that they don't, some stars take advantage of that and talk shit out of both sides of their mouth. But I think what I, what Isaiah Stewart's role is on this team is getting even more vital. Now he shouldn't get suspended, but he him just being an enforcer is definitely going to help Detroit going forward as they, you know, continue to be the best team in the east right now when you didn't highlight logan i don't know if this was on your list of uh fun little snapshots from the scene last night uh duncan robinson going for the roger murtaugh i'm too old for this shit award they just just turned around and it's perfect because the camera angle is getting him turning around so he's almost like facing the camera as if this was like planned like this was like like the director's like all right zone in on on duncan robinson and he's like just turns around like he's got this like look of disgusting on his face oh fuck man i don't i don't know i i i'm not getting not a good look dude no i know no it's the opposite of the isaiah stewart right not a good look it's funny for us um probably not going over well in that locker room raja not a good look man there are going to be whispers about like you see that he's the three-point shooter nobody expects like the three point specialist to get in the fight even but listen not even in a fighting you're not even you can't peacemake out there like you can't try to break that up just go get somebody out of that He's not a small guy. You just walked away like washing my hands. That suggests like, Hey, I would, I, I have no investment here. I am. I have no investment here. But like, that just from the outside Here the only other thing I would say about the the point we were we were kind of debating Howard debating Howard And it specific to Detroit and teams that play like them That where they want to live in terms of their kind of brand of basketball like the culture that they about And so on those teams, that that role becomes even more important. Right. Like, OKC doesn't necessarily need that. They don't. That's not the way they're built for them and the style they play. It could be important. I said it at the top of the segment but Hornets really good basketball team snapped a nine game winning streak Rogers Hornets doing their thing also another fight happened also another fight happened it wasn't really a fight it was Nas Reed also was a big hold me back because he had two chances to throw a punch it was like wait I missed I'm just going to lightly tap the opponent's arm Like, we're not fighting anymore here. You know, we got bags to protect. But I just wanted to note that it was pretty anticlimactic. It was a dust-up. It was fine. Before we leave this, though, how many games is Isaiah Stewart getting? That's the question. Ten? I mean, he'll have the most out of all of them because he left the bench and escalated, right? Maybe. Maybe. But is he going to get more than Bridges? Did he throw punches? Because Miles Bridges was, I mean, I saw multiple. He put, he put bridges in from what I saw, he put bridges in the headlock a little bit and then bridges got up out of that. And then everybody just started crowding. This is where everybody starts trying to do the math around the league. And again, so I'm, I'm working with sports business classroom. So among people I saw this morning, Bobby Marks, Tommy Shepard, former GM of the wizards, Ryan McDonough, former GM of the sun. So like, we're all just like chatting about like this stuff and the tanking stuff and everything else. But there's a, there's a conversation that happens around. I'm not going to indict these guys in this particular conversation. I'll just let you guys know. But there's a conversation that happens every time there's something like this around the league where it's like, well, if David were commissioner, because suspensions were pretty harsh back in the day. And I will just say, like, I haven't done the statistics on this, but I'm pretty sure if I if I ran the numbers, average length of suspension is down in the Adam Silver. there's fewer fights real fights these days anyway too but i feel like even when there's been some ones like there was that son's clippers uh dust up a several years back it seems like suspensions are a little lighter these days so everyone's like in the old days yeah isaiah stewart 10 games probably minimum probably like five i think it's gonna be more yeah like five or six or something and then everybody else will be somewhere in like the three to four range that's that would be my guess but i'm is there a world where bridges and stewart both get five games because like bridges was wild he didn't leave the bench but he was he also out of control but out of he was out of control yeah yeah and diabate like it's understood that guys are going to have a moment when things get tense like that and get physical but you're supposed to then compose yourself it's supposed to dissolve and if it doesn't every moment that you are continuing to push this forward and and then involving more people um is going to add to it so the fact that like diabate and and Bridges both kept going and going and going, that's going to factor in their suspension lanes for sure. Yeah, I agree with that. I think every time you break a tackle and re-engage, it could be a game. Hey, Roger, that boy was Barry Sanders out there, wasn't he? He was shaking, man. That's crazy. All right, let's take a break. Talk about tanking. Okay, guys, it's been a very eventful weekend for losers. And when I say losers, I'm talking about the Utah Jazz, who a couple of days ago traded for Jaron Jackson Jr. to pair with Laurie Markkinen and Yusef Nurkic. And all three of them sat out the fourth quarter of an eventual loss to the Orlando Magic, a game in which they were up 17 points. Will Hardy just sat him down, just straight up sat him down. And that is also coming on the heels of the Washington Wizards trade, where they traded for two guys that they're just going to just sit for the rest of the season so they can keep their pick. Brooklyn is starting to sit MPJ. Brooklyn's not very good, but any chance that they're trying to win, they are taking that away by just sitting their star players. It's gotten to the point where the competition committee, this is according to friend of the pod, Mark Stein, has discussed ways to change the pattern of losers that is happening and permeating around the NBA. I'm going to start with Howard on this What does this say about the NBA now that we are just in a perpetual loser mentality when it comes to picks When it comes to teams I can't even I don't even whatever this is I think specific to the NBA where I go into a season And I can count at least 10 teams that don't even want to win going into a season I don't know if I can look at that at any other league, whether it's MLB, whether it's NFL, whether it's soccer overseas. What do we do about this, Howard? Man. So I wrote about this on TheRinger.com a few weeks ago about how the headline was something about the NBA learned to love losing. and my point of that piece was that the last 10 12 13 years ever since sam hinkey's process in philly this is the tanking era it's not that tanking never happened before the rockets infamously tanked to get akim elajuan way back when and there have been other years the spurs were believed to have done it by keeping david robinson out longer than necessary so they could get the duncan pick but it was momentary things and it would be a team here or there it wasn't a system-wide league-wide worldwide conversation where we're actually also like judging teams based on like well they're not that good they should just tank uh oh they got a protective pick they should tank we are all involved in this now one of the lines in the story is that we're all complicit in this this is the tanking era this is the first era of the nba the last 10 to 15 years where we discuss this constantly It's a 365-day discussion. To Logan's point, you start the season and we already know which teams are kind of just planning to sit it out. And the offseason, oh, they're offloading guys or they're not adding guys. They're not using their cap room. As a scheme, as a strategy, and as something that we all embrace without even flinching, this is new-ish. It's the last decade or so. It didn't used to be this way. It didn't used to be this bad. So that was the piece I wrote a few weeks ago if people want to go check it out at TheRinger.com. In terms of where it is right now, like the league had all these reforms they made, right? Like they reshuffled the lottery odds to make it flatter and to not give as much incentive to the worst team. Now it's like three teams have the same odds, the bottom three teams, instead of one team with the best odds. That seemed to help a little initially. We've got the play-in tournament that incentivizes teams to keep trying late in the season. And like, I think there were some good early returns from those innovations where it did seem to like depress this a little bit. But what's happened? We have a potentially historically great draft class coming and teams that foresaw this were already planning on tanking this season. That's Brooklyn. That's Washington. That's Utah to an extent. And but we also have a bunch of teams that are like tanking now that did not set out to. So like to Logan's point about 10 teams, let's look at the bottom 10, right? We have three teams that were already in teardowns. Definitely. We're planning to be shitty this season, Washington, Brooklyn, Utah. Then there's some teams that are just like here because of injuries, right? The Pacers lost Halliburton. They'd much rather be returning to the finals. Have they leaned into the, to the losing? Possibly, but, um, they didn't intend a lot of injuries this season. And they've had a lot of injuries, legit injuries, Dallas without Kyrie to start lose lively early, lose AD for a long stretch. Dallas would have much rather in the wake of the Luka trade been competitive. Milwaukee, Giannis. So these are all teams that are in the bottom 10 that I'm going to loosely throw into this tank race or this lottery ball race. Then there's four teams that tried to win, but just through bad luck or incompetence or whatever, they're just bad anyway. The Kings, like signed guys last summer, they weren't trying to lose. The Kings just suck. The Pelicans don't even own their pick. No incentive to lose. They're just awful. And then there's the Grizzlies who set out to win and then pulled the plug, traded Jaron Jackson Jr. Things just have gone off the rails there. And Ja's been out a bunch. And then the Chicago Bulls. The Bulls who are not even, quote unquote, smart enough because we like to credit teams for being smart when they strategically tank. The Bulls weren't even smart enough to tank. They suddenly realized, oh, we suck. Let's just trade everybody. and as Zach Lowe has mentioned many times, they committed to this way too late. There's too many teams to leapfrog. But the Pacers also have an added incentive now because of the Zubach deal where they keep their pick if it's in the top four or 10 or lower. So they're definitely not going for the 10 or lower scenario and they're definitely not preferring to trade it to the Clippers if it falls five through nine. So the Pacers are incentivized to be as bad as possible. The Wizards have a protected one-to-eight pick to the Knicks. They're incentivized to be as bad as possible. The Jazz pick is also a top eight protected or it goes to Oklahoma. They're incentivized to be as bad as possible. So you take all these things and a historically great draft class. And this is it. So this is a conversation. Again, I will say when I talk to Bobby and Tommy and Ryan McDonough, everybody agrees. This is the earliest we've ever seen teams just saying, fuck it. And being blatant about it, right? The Jazz benching starters, and you can bet Adam's going to be asked about this on Saturday night uh when he does his annual all-star presser when the jazz is has a 17 point lead and they didn't have the lead at the top of the fourth but they had it in the seven in the second half i think and benches marking in and their brand new shiny toy jaron jackson jr and then lose the game like that is that is as blatant as it gets that is not gross that's gross i'm sorry go ahead no go i'm good no that's gross that's yeah that's gross i don't have much to add to that like look the way the league is set up the mechanics of it all, we've talked before about how that no man's land in between having those high picks and not being competitive enough to compete for a championship is not where you want to live for any extended stretch of time. So I understand that the way the league is set up, you're going to be incentivized at some point to do that. I think it's, I'm sick of the hypocritical nature of it all, right? Like you could, a fan base, a front office, an ownership group, it is when we want to lose and we want to tank as a player, be complicit. Like let us sit you when we need to sit you so that we can lose. We're going to take you out of games that you as a competitor, want to win because we want to lose. But then as soon as we feel like we have enough as an organization, fans, ownership, front office, now you as a player got to be a fucking competitor and want to win every game. You don't flip a switch with that shit. It's dangerous. Maybe some people can, but it's a dangerous thing to play with that, asking someone to not be competitive for stretches of time. And then when you deem it necessary, now you want them to be all in and be competitive and be willing to do whatever you need them to do in a quest for a championship. I think it's bullshit. And I think it's hypocritical. Roger, if you were on a, if you're on a team where, you know, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're usual role during your time, right? You're the fourth or fifth starter or six man or whatever it is. And you know, like, these are my, these are my guys I'm leaning on. Markkanen and Jaron Jackson, these guys I'm playing off of. These are the guys who allow me to do what I do because they're carrying the load. And you go into a fourth quarter and suddenly it's like, you're playing all 12 minutes, Raja. And by the way, um, take as many shots as you want. Like, what does that do to you psychologically if you're like one of their teammates? Yeah, I mean, that's a what to ask. Like, what are we doing? What are we really look? What are we trying to achieve here? And if it is losing games, don't play them. Don't play them at all. Let them let them sit over there like MPJ in street clothes. I don't agree with that either. But if that's the way we're going to approach this, just sit them and let us hoop. don't roll them out there and have us in the midst of a game that we could win look man if you ain't out there to win a game what the fuck are you doing on a court or a field what are you doing like why are we out here so if you've given us an opportunity to do this with our team and we are in the midst of it with that opportunity like right in front of us you're gonna snatch that away from us and then come in the locker room and shake our hands no don't do that Don't do that. It's it's malpractice. It's it's. I just I've just been very frustrated by the NBA because of these things. Right. Because of the tanking, because of the incentive to talk about picks that are that are going to happen. There's no other sport. I go to go watch football. My homies. I go to watch soccer. with my homies. I go to watch baseball with my homies. The NBA is the only sport where during an actual game, you're talking about, oh yeah, man, my team has a protected pick coming up. We have to lose this game. It's okay. What the fuck are we having sports for? It's just a complete loser mentality, man. And then on the other side, yeah, some executives say like, it's the smart play to tank. Bullshit. Because the other thing that they want to do, this is the real thing what they want to do is they want to extend their job security. The easiest way to extend your job security is say, oh, we're just going to kick the can down the road because we have this pick. We can just build towards this mythical draft that's going to happen. And maybe we'll get this player and maybe we'll get this player. How about you just try to win? How about you come with the mentality every single time to try to put your team in the best possible position to win the game or to win and And also be smart about it. But like when you tell your players consistently, hey, we're going to sit this out, you're going to sit these games out. It brings a mentality that continues to build. And you can't turn that mentality off. Right. The Jazz have been doing this for five years. They've been taking for five years. And have they gotten marginally better? No, they haven't. They have not. And a lot of that has been because they have been taking as well. But their teams, they play hard, but they haven't gotten just some magical guy that is just going to make them great and great. No, it's a mentality that they've done. They've seeped into their fan base to do this. But that's whack, man. If I'm a fan of a basketball team, I want to see them play in May. I want to see them striving. I want to see the Raiders have sucked my whole life, but at least they tried to get Randy Moss, right? They tried to do something to revamp the organization. and they suck, but like, hey, they try. Or if you're, this is another thing. If you're a Kings fan, we brag on the Kings. But at least in some version, they're at least trying to do something. At least it's very twisted, but they're trying. We give Joe Lacom shit all the time. He is trying as an owner, as an owner to have his team be the best it could be. I just, the frustrating part is just like, we've just seeped over the last 15 years in the NBA that losing is good. What? All right. Far be it from me to justify the unjustifiable or to endorse all the moral hazards. But no, but it exists for a reason. One is there's still a reverse order draft. As long as you have a reverse order draft, you've created the perverse incentive. You create a lottery to try to tamp that down. But the lottery and all the versions that they've had over the last 40 years hasn't done enough to tamp it down because there's always still at the end of it, a reverse order draft. because at the end of the day the NBA wants to give bad teams a chance to get better players so that they are no longer bad It about giving them some sense of hope so that if you can root for wins you can at least root for the possibility of something else a savior The savior thing doesn't always work, right? In fact, more often than not, it doesn't. You tank the wrong year. The lottery balls don't bounce your way. Someone goes bust, Zion. There's all kinds of different ways in which this can go badly, even if you played it, quote unquote, right. But to Logan's point about the Jazz has been bad for five, I think it's actually four years they've been tanking, whatever, since they blew it up and sent out Donovan and Rudy Gobert. You know, just, you know. But look, they got Lowry Markin in one of those trades, the Donovan Mitchell trade. They got picks. Keontae George, not a player who was taken at the top of the lottery. He was like mid-first round, but like starting to come on and looking good. But the big thing here is as the Jazz go and make that trade for Jaron Jackson Jr., it's a signal that they're planning to come out of this, right? Now they're not coming out of it right now because they're sitting Jaron Jackson Jr. in fourth quarters. But as long as they hold on to their top eight protected pick, and who knows, maybe they get a top four pick and they walk away with DeBansa or Boozer or one of these guys, Logan, that's not going to negate your statement about like, what did you get out of it? They may get something out of it and the Wizards might get something out of it. And we're going to look back and go like, yeah, it was all shitty, but you know what? When the Spurs come out of it with Victor Wambanyama and Stephon Castle and Dylan Harper, was it worth it? Fuck yeah. It was for the Spurs and their fans and their front office. It's not like, yes, there's an element of this sometimes that I think is, as you say, kicking the can down the road or protecting your job, whatever else. But it's also just the fact that sometimes there's a guy who can change the entire trajectory of your franchise. And if you've got a shot to get him and you can improve that shot by a percentage point or two or three, everyone would do it. So it really still goes back to the incentive structure, which is the league deciding we're going to have a reverse order draft and a lottery. and some version. But I do feel like there's a defeatist attitude towards like, oh, well, this is just the rules. Like, how about you change the incentive structure? Continue to change it in a meaningful way, right? Because there's another version of this where like, I mean, the NBA and the ownership, they do a lot of ways to try to, you know, take money about players' pockets with aprons, with the 65 game rule, specifically the aprons. Let's just say with the aprons. Is there an incentive structure where if you just blatantly tank or blatantly do these things continually over years? How about first? It's a fine. Right. They don't teams don't care about a fine. We saw what happened with Dallas, but it's it's the first step. Right. And Utah, that's the first step. Then it's like, OK, then we're going to take the second round pick if you're just not going to try. Or then we're going to just, if you continue to just blatantly just disregard basketball or disregard the things in the game. You're going to escalate punishments on teams for spending trying to win, and you ain't going to escalate punishments for teams that are perpetually going to lose until they can win. That's ridiculous. I hate that. Even the Sixers who just traded away a guy to just get out of the tax. That's what we have continually to do. On one hand, we're over here like, oh, we need to lose in order to get a pick. And then also, we need to trade away guys just to stay under the South. They're cheap, and then they're just losers, bro. That's what the last 15 years have been for maybe a tenth of the league. We're just going to be losers. I just want to say this about – I agree with you, Logan, but I just want to come at this from a player perspective and like from a what's his name hardy is it will hardy yeah the jazz who's a good coach by the way very good good coach i listen we were out in in utah a few years ago um boris de al had dni over to the crib but will hardy was there like it was one of my favorite interactions with an nba head coach we sat around and had a couple balls of one was fantastic i thought he was great how do you ask that dude and and he might be good enough where he can execute it but But you put him in a situation where he's looking at dudes and you're mandating that throughout the course of seasons, given opportunities to win, he has to go out there and reverse execute and try to lose. How does that same guy look at a team three years from now and say, all right, fellas, need you guys to buy into winning. Need you to trust what I'm like. You put him in a really messed up spot. Like you put him in a situation where he's got to talk out of both sides of his mouth. I don't think that's right. And just to the whole, hey, we wind up with Stephon Castle, we wind up with Wembe, we wind up. Yeah, that's dope. But the league ain't all about those dudes. If there were only those three mofos on a team, the team wouldn't exist. What about all the casualties in the middle of that that you've – there's so much more to it than that. You understand what I'm saying? Like you've taken years of people's careers in some instance and rolled the dice with them and played played like this should be a meritocracy. That's what the sport is about. That's what we're out here trying to do. We're going out. We're trying to win games. We're trying to get paid for being the best. And if you're asking us to lose games, that does affect me as a role player. I don't come in nearly as much on a shitty team as a role player as I do on a really good team as a role player. And I just don't think that you as an organization or as a league as a whole should should have an infrastructure in place that rewards that. I don't think I don't think it's right. I mean, we've I think we've convinced ourselves as a league that building to the draft is the way to go. And it is right. It's the cheapest way to build a contender. You know, it's a less punitive to way to build a contender. But there have been plenty of teams throughout the course of NBA history that did not build through the draft and have built a contender. Raja is was a part of one of those teams because they traded for the Suns. Was it traded or they signed Steve Nash in free agency? I think it was a signing trade, if I'm not mistaken. I'm not sure. It was before my time. But when the Suns got him, when the Suns got signed him out, signed him out, right? Signed him. All right. Right. But like you get that was on his that was a major one of the best redemption stories in, you know, league history that happened. Right. But like you can have these things where you can trade for a guy. Cleveland has done this all the time but just try when I see Danny Ainge just out here punting seasons I'm like you're the same guy that rolled the dice to get Kevin Garnett Ray Allen and team up with Paul Pierce and in the stroke of like three four weeks right like you when you try you can build a team together and I just don't feel I feel like it's a cop-out to continue to just we're just going to kick the can down the road it's there's luck that's always a part of this the Spurs is a great example of this, but just it's the mentality that I am annoyed with. Howard, can I ask a question? And I don't know that you would know the answer. I don't know how tapped in you are, but I find this is interesting to me. And it's, I think, to some degree, highlights what I'm talking about. The attitude that the NBA takes, and I'm not blaming teams. I think it's a structural issue from the top, the mechanisms of the way the league works. But you're going to do everything you can to lose games. You're going to stack or unstack the deck, however you look at it, to give yourself the best possible chance to get one of these top picks. Now, here we got one of the universal top two picks in the NBA draft at Kansas, Darren Peterson. Phenomenal. I hope he has a great pro career. But what I'm starting to hear now about him is what's going on with him? Why isn't he playing? Why is he sitting out games? Is his camp advising him not to be out there and be competitive at all times? Is that a red flag on him? Like you can't have both of those things. You can't be the league that does that and then turn around and hold it against a talented college kid because he's choosing to execute that. He's following your model. Yeah, this is what we talk about. We talk about moral hazards. Right. And also just like the messages you're sending and the culture you're creating as a league and that can seep into other areas, too. Right. I don't know. I will say this to Logan's point. You can build a championship caliber team or a finals team a lot of different ways, right? So the Thunder defending champions right now, their best player, Shea Gildas Alexander, not a top three pick. He was like, whatever, 12th, 13th, somewhere in that range. Their second best player, Jalen Williams, they got a pick via trade. Again, I think it was 12th overall, something like that. So Chet's the one that they tanked and got where they got via tanking, right? So it mattered, but it wasn't the way that they built entirely. the celtics are the champion before them jalen and jason tatum were both top three picks now they weren't their picks they were somebody else's top three picks hello brooklyn nets but the value of a top three pick is substantial and it doesn't always work out right and you we can go back look uh the nuggets built a champion around a second round pick nikola jokic the warriors built a champion around uh what was steph the uh six picks seventh pick seventh pick um the Bucks built a champion around the 15th pick in Giannis. There are various ways to do this, but especially if you are a smaller market team, if you're not a destination team, if you're not a team that's going to get superstars via free agency, and it's hard to get them via trade even because they'll say, oh, nope, not going to resign with you. Check me out. Take me off the list. Then tanking in the draft is the way. It doesn't always work out. And like, look, Dallas last year leaps from 11th to one. leapfrogs all these teams that had spent their whole season tanking they all get screwed and the mavericks who were stupid enough to trade away luca donchich the lottery balls reward them with stop it raja um stop it and even then well and also howard what what were the mavericks doing now we could say we could talk about like the the method of how they were doing but they were striving to win that whole time yeah yeah so it it can go any any different number of ways and it's there's no guarantee there's no guarantee you win the lottery there's no guaranteed the guy you pick works out. There's no guarantee the guy stays healthier, isn't a bust or whatever, but it's still the best odds play. And so teams are still going to do what's logical to them. And we all intellectually understand it. We may fucking hate it. And Raja has spoken very, you know, righteously and passionately. And I think rightly about all of that. And I can't argue with any of it, but I am of two minds of it. And I think most NBA fans these days are where it's like, this is all a little icky. Don't like this. Not cool. There's no competitive integrity to this. At the same time, if I'm the GM or the owner of that team, yeah, I get it. I get it. You know what's going to happen? You know what's going to happen when a young crop of kids and young fans are coming up and they see just a whole bunch of teams tanking? They're just going to be like, oh, this is weak. The player that I want to see, they're not coming because they're sitting on the bench. You know what they're going to do? They're going to go watch other sports they're gonna be like oh nfl yo i get to watch them play and they're playing hard all the time it's way more compelling right i'm gonna go on soccer where they're actually give a fuck like it's not just this part it's it's the totality of the integrity of the game and while while i understand it and i'm like i understand it i obviously like i don't have to like it but i understand it what i would say is not only is that a potential you know risk logan but But what I can tell you is happening because I'm in these streets with these young kids is you are really blurring the line and confusing them as to what is really important in sports. And that has always been fucking competing. It has been always the foundation of what is important when you're trying to raise champions. It's competition, not running from it, playing through something that you could have a 55, 45 chance of not playing if you can get your little tail out there and play. That has always been foundationally what sports are about, the competition of it all. And as a league, you are setting a poor example in that, and it has trickled down. I just gave you one on the college level. I can point to 10 or 11 at the high school level and below that. That's the trickle down effect that that and maybe it doesn't become so pervasive that it's an actual problem for our basketball as a culture, but it's certainly happening. I do wonder you brought up a point earlier Roger that I thought was pointing I want to go back to when you were talking about the players involved in this right because I can't imagine at least the players that I grew up with with the competitiveness that they displayed that if a coach told them to sit down and they knew why they were sitting down they would be like what the fuck like if it was a star player and it was like no you're gonna sit down for the rest of the game for the next 30 minutes you're sitting down i know you're we're up 17 but there's a bigger play out here i know players would be like what do you fuck are you talking about what are you talking about i'm going back in the fucking game you know and i think there's a responsibility to that too and i think that speaks to your trickle down effect uh premise rogers that players are also like you know what cool you right i'm about to go sit my eyes down man i'm about to give me some ice that's what yes logan yes that's bananas that anyone would accept triple j is like oh yeah cool bet. Thanks, coach. Yeah, I'm good. I got my I got my jacks up for tonight. I shot my I got my 22. I'm good. Let's ice these things up. That is crazy. And I would just say to the fan, right? Like who, you know, Howard, you are correct. The fan probably lives in the world like we do, which is, hey, man, we don't love it. We understand it. It's necessary. Maybe we come out on the other end of this and we're a championship caliber team. But you don't get to be the fan that accepts that and says, I'm cool with that. And I'm cool with them telling, like Laurie Markkinen and Jared to sit down for a half. And then if they come to your city and you've bought the ticket on flex pricing and paid the premium for it, and that star says, I ain't playing tonight. You don't get to be incensed about that if you're also the one that's going to accept, hey, bro, we need it. That's just the way the league works. We're going to have to sit them down when we have an opportunity to win a game. They're the same thing. That's so whack, man. That's so whack. I saw the Sixers the other week, and I would be really crushed if BJ Edgecombe was like, you know what, man? I ain't going to play it. I'm just not going to do it. I'm not going to play it. This is the only time we get to see the Sixers out in the West Cubs. BJ Edgecombe, who they only have because they tanked to make sure that they kept their pick last year. Yeah, for sure, right? This podcast is a complete circle. Shut up, Howard. Shut up, Howard. Shut up, nerd. I'm not, bro, but it's an overall mentality, man. And also, by the way, since we're on it, and I just want to point this out. We do have to get some mailbag. I want to point this out because I thought it was whack as fuck that he did this. What Daryl Morey said about McCain was just whack. It was so whack. Did you hear this, Roger? Did you hear what he said? Yeah, I did. When he said that we sold high on McCain, we're selling. That was such a whack thing to say as someone in a front office about a player that was in your building that you drafted. that's what like and i get people look at these less people look at these players as numbers we already know that but to put that and just say that in a in a group setting around a whole bunch of people with cameras on bro you should be ashamed of yourself because no one yeah because no one asked you no one and no one asked you that no one posed the question no one asked him to get hurt right no one asked him to get hurt and he was second in uh rookie of the year or he was he was one of the top rookies last year before he got hurt and is should have a promising nba career but you just don't do that bro that's it was whack yeah that's kind of and it speaks and it speaks to like the analytical uh era that we're in and how we look at these players numbers and how we look at these um draft picks as numbers and these games as numbers and we've gotten the human out and i think that's what pisses me off about the tanking is in a brown about way just taken the human element out of the the basketball of it all right of like oh you're just a number we got to lose these games in order to get to this number and get to this number and we have this protection on this pick like man let's just hoop like let's just let's just hoop and don't treat people like shit because i thought that daryl maury treated uh became like shit on the way out and he a nice guy he didn do nothing wrong to nobody And that was what I shared this I shared this before I agree with you on that And, you know, the front office I was in in Cleveland, everyone knows them. We've talked about this. And none of them took that approach where where where as human beings, they're all great dudes. I wouldn't I wouldn't second guess any of them in terms of like getting at a podium and saying something like that. All these people are great human beings. I still talk to all of them. But even in that space, I sat at a table once with them as we went through, you know, you're grading the entire league. And I've shared this before. And, you know, I had to shed a little light as the former player in that room to guys about like, hey, this feels a little soulless, if you will. Like we this it isn't just a number and a letter. Like there's a human being that's that's attached. And the game is the game, too, right? Like I get that. I get that game is the game. Yeah, no, yeah. And look, you're operating in that front office from a highly analytical standpoint, and I can respect that. But as I sat there, the veil was kind of removed from me as a player because I didn't see it like this when I was on the other side. All we see is the human element. That's what we're living in day to day. I got relationships with these dudes. I know Eddie House. I know James Jones. I know their family. I know what makes them tick. Like, like, I know that if they missed that jump shot, like, I know maybe why he missed that jump shot. Do you understand what I'm saying? Like, I can attach the human and we're sitting at that table with this front office and we're just assigning Howard Beck as a player that Raja knows one C. And then there's a little, like, caption that I could go read and see what C means. Questionable character like this and that. And I'm like, God, dog, this is this is so what's the word I want to use for it? I don't know my vocabulary yet to some degree. Right. But it was like really sterile, if you will. You know what I mean? Like it was it was I don't know how to really articulate it, but for me, it was eye opening. And those are my friends and they do a fantastic job. And I'd like to think that in some regards, like they took what I was saying with them, like and became better for it. But I was like, guys, you got to you got to remember that these are human beings and there's more to it. You know, when you when you say somebody can't play like that's a trigger of mine. We've been on here before. Right. And I'm like, guys, don't do that. I can't do that. Like, because that's not that's not fair. We're at the highest level of the sport. We can't do that. And I just like we I don't think it goes both ways in that. Right. Because we we we we laugh when Daryl Morey does says something like that. But we talk shit about James Harden when he goes to China and says that Daryl Morey lied to me. Right. Or and it's it's not that it's not the same reaction on both sides. Right. Or like we laugh when a front office says that LaMelo Ball said he wanted to be president. Why are you laughing at that? Right. And that's that's just a punchline. and we we have gotten the human i just say all that to say that we have gotten the human element out of this league and then we we just look at these basketball players at least outwardly speaking because they've always kind of been looking at as numbers right that's the business that's what we're in but like we have just been outwardly uh taking the human element out of it and um i think that's why you know we're having a we're looking at a losing league right now a league full of losers literally um although although the the the ultimate rejoinder to that um unfortunately and why the league when we talk about like why aren't they it was in the urgency to like fix tanking or fix this or fix that or any of the other ills that we've just discussed today or or any other time they just signed this insanely lucrative new media rights deal the league's making more money than it's ever made before they're at like 11 or 12 billion And the players, despite second aprons and everything else, the players in the aggregate make 50% of it. So they're getting their five, six billion. The player contracts are through the roof. Even the minimum guys, even the mid-level guys, everybody's making out great. And I would just say on some level, it insulates them. Not in a healthy way, necessarily. I'm not saying it's justified. I'm not saying it's a good thing. But it does insulate everybody. And it might make them a little complacent. It might make them take a little bit of all this for granted. And so it's not crashing and burning Logan. The fans aren't turning away yet. They're not abandoning them, but they may. And just because you signed this lucrative media rights deal doesn't mean the next one will be just as robust. So they do have to watch themselves. But I also, I think that the vast wealth of the league right now means that they can brush a lot of this stuff aside, whether it's a good thing or not. Yeah, it's a good point. I don't have much else to say. Great conversation, guys. Let's get some mailbag. let me see which one no cliff today um we'll see him back soon um mr cliff mr cliff uh okay shut up shut up bro shut up because one we know whenever you say that that means you love him to death but two cliff was always the guy cliff was like his babe yeah cliff's my guy um anyways uh Okay, this is from Sam. Hey, guys. Big fan of the show. Been listening since you guys started a few years back. Show's been great from the start. Thank you. But it got even better when Howard motherfucking Beck was added on, and you guys get me through my commute to work at least twice a week. Keep up the great work. Appreciate that, Sam. I wanted to ask about your all-time injury Hall of Fame, guys. By this, I mean guys who could have been all-time greats if it wasn't for their careers being derailed by injuries. With Chris Stops being traded to the Warriors, it made me think of how brilliant he is when he plays. But unfortunate is that his career has not always been what many of us thought it was going to be early on because of the injuries. If I had a list in the starting five, mine would be Derek Rose at the one, Grant Hill at the two, Tracy McGrady at the three, Bill Walton at the four, and Chris Stops Porzingis at the five. Thank you, guys. Have a great weekend. Thank you, Sam. That's a good one, Sam. I like that. I like that. I like the D-Rose. I would – let me just – at the two, probably move Grant to the – would you guys consider T-Max – did his career – I mean, he had a phenomenal career. Was it derailed? It got derailed in Houston. It was curtailed at the end. It was curtailed. I don't think it was defined by injuries necessarily, but like towards the end in Houston, he definitely was curtailed by injuries. I think it was a knee thing and then – Back, I think too. Back, yeah. Well, let me throw in an honorable mention for the two spot. If we got G. Hill, because G. Hill, that's a real one. Brandon Roy. That was one of the first ones I thought of. Brandon Roy. Penny Hardaway belongs on this list, for sure. Penny was amazing, but injuries. Michael Redd. Michael Redd was still part of a gold medal-winning Olympic team, but curtailed. McGrady and Hill were two great additions. of that Porzingis. Uh, it was, that's a little bit of a force. Like, I don't know that I want to put them on a list with like three guys who were in the hall of fame and the fourth Derek Rose, who might make the hall of fame, but, but I get it. Um, good list from Sam. I was trying to think of other ones. Um, Greg Oden, there was a lot of different things that went wrong, but, but starting with his knees, like he came in hurt, which was, which was, you know, part of the part of his story. And then a lot of other things went wrong for him. I wonder if Ben Simmons belongs on this list. like is Ben Simmons out of the league now because of his back because of other things I mean because of a lack of drive uh seemingly based on a lot of conversations I've had with people over the years who worked with him in Philly and Brooklyn um but Ben Simmons certainly like it was the consensus number one pick and was you know defensive player of the year candidate and all defensive team and like looked like he was going to be a generational superstar people like were absolutely head over heels for him um when he first came in and then the other guy I thought about of course is Yao yeah yeah and um like just you know great career made the hall of fame but seemingly a lot of left had to leave a lot of years on the table because of of all of his his injuries could you make the argument for larry bird too you could but but he still had four shifts though right like he's yeah you know like he's still i mean just in terms of longevity like right i still had like sure i think it's more about i i mean if we're trying to get a sense of like what Sam, the listener was going for. It's what they could have been, right? What they could have been, yeah. I got you. Okay, fair. You know who I think somebody that we add to this list? Sean Livingston. Number one pick in the 04 draft. He was like 6'7". We know of Sean Livingston as the role player, but that dude was cold. He was like magic, like 3.0. I like that. And he could shoot a little bit. But, you know, he had the devastating knee injury and then just bounced around the league and then got with the Warriors and wound up being a great role player. I think he's one. What was another one? Gilbert Arenas, I think, is another pick as well. He had the off-court stuff, but he was never right after that torn ACL. And it was a combination of the knee injury and then the off-the-court gun stuff that kind of derailed his career. But Gilbert was a bad boy. If you know, you know. He was cold in his time. Antonio McDyess? oh that's a good call yeah yeah uh knees i think yeah right i got a good jump out of the gym he was and he was he was awesome um but yeah that's that's another that's another good one okay i got one more and then um we'll get out of here okay this is from uh thank you sam for your question appreciate you buddy uh this is from will platter i think that i'm getting the last name right i hope i am um all right nba he starts off this is i think the premise is good uh the question is a little all over the place but um we're gonna start here uh nba champions in the 2020s lakers bucks warriors nuggets celtics thunder and this question is will the 2020s end with a team of the decade warriors spurs lakers celtics team of the decades um i think The Warriors, obviously 2010s. Spurs, I don't know if they're a team of the decade just because they won. It may be 2010s, but they shared that with the Lakers. But they won theirs in three different decades. So it's weird to call them a team of the decades. But the Bulls, obviously, in the 90s, Celtics in the 80s. Let me put the Lakers in the 80s as well. But for the 2020s, there hasn't been a repeat winner. Just when the Thunder looked like they're going to win three of the next five, Wemby is acting like. uh so the question is will the 2020s end with the clear team of the decade if no would this be a lasting trend for the nba or just a blip so i'll start off with this answer um this isn't unprecedented necessarily like in the 1970s there were a lot of trade-offs um with nba champions i think the sonics won a couple the warriors won um the the lakers had gotten one in there but there It was just like a mismatch of different teams winning a title. I think the NBA wants this to be a lasting trend with the apron. I think this was the reason why they continued to make differences or make different changes to the cap and essentially make it a hard cap so we can disperse all the talent everywhere else. But OKC looks great. They have a young core. Basically, what you need at this point is a young core and then trickle players around them. and then they have all the picks. I think the Thunder are the closest team to having a chance at this. And maybe the Celtics as well. I mean, if they can come back and bounce back next year and reel off a couple titles, they can do it as well. We're still halfway through this. There's still – the Nuggets can still maybe win a couple titles as well. We're in the middle, so we'll see. There's still chances for teams to be able to do it. Jason Tatum, rehab assignment with the G League team. He's coming back soon, I think. He should not do that, bro. discussion for another day i do that i know that that's discussion for another day we'll revisit but i i certainly think that's a signal he's coming back um these are the teams to make the finals in the 2020s and the reason i'm going to go away from just the champions but the teams that made the finals i was like thinking about like like the 90s buffalo bills where it's like make whatever six super bowls like like just just be a team that like could define the decade by just being the best in your conference and getting there over and over and over again right so like there's a possibility like the heat have made two finals in the 2020s and never underestimate uh pat riley in that in that group um the celtics have made two finals everybody else has won each but you know it's it's all the other teams that won the championships right but like the sun's made a finals mavericks made a finals pacers made a finals um and so i'm thinking like we've got because we're going to start with 2020 we're going to only go through 2029 we've got four finals left for somebody to make their mark and try to like claim this title right so yeah the thunder are the likely ones the celtics are the other most likely and they've already got it you know those are two teams that both have a championship under their belt and the celtics already have two finals under their belt but like there's a possibility of a late pistons push here a late knicks push maybe although i think their window's a little shorter because of the age and there's definitely the possibility of a spurs push here right like if the spurs like they're so far ahead of schedule um the possibility of them being able to leapfrog the thunder or just like wrestle with them for the next four years about you know western conference supremacy and the nuggets can get back into this thing too right as long as yokich is still yokich and he is so like i think those are the teams like i've also got an eye on but there's a pretty good chance like there's no guarantee the thunder are going to win another one there's a good chance we do exit the 2020s without a team of the decade and it would be the first time since the 70s but this is what the league wants they engineered it this way they they love parody adam silver loves parody they've been trying to engineer the system this way through like the last three or four cbas in a row and they've got it this is what they wanted yeah good answer howard don't have much to add your answer was really what i was going to say was what you just said which is my answer to that would be probably not i don't think there's going to be a defining team of the decade and it's by design so that well done yeah good job everybody that is for a league that has built itself on dynasties just legislative yeah i mean look the thunder could do it the thunder like the talent is there they've got all the the youth and draft picks and everything else to just keep this thing going but it's like something always gets in the way like there's injuries or somebody else is better a given year just whatever you know shit happens and i was gonna say i watched them last night in LA, man. They look good. Jalen Williams is, hopefully, this is a sign of things to come because he looked great last night. Yeah. See what happens. Okay, that has been another edition of Real Wins. We have a lot in store for you this week. Me and Howard and a special guest are going to be doing some shows out of Los Angeles that we are... Don't give me that look, Roger. We love you and you are a real one. Isaiah Stewart's joining the show. He's going to have free time on his hands, so... So we got a couple of shows that we're recording that are going to be dropping this week and early next week that we are going to record. So excited about that. Be on the lookout for that in your ringer NBA feed. All right, man. Love all the real ones, man. We'll see you guys. I'm on my way to L.A. So if I see you, man, tap in all my L.A. real ones. I tap in with Howard. Also, a reminder, me and Howard are going to be judging the G League dunk competition. Very exciting. Make sure you go check that out. Can I just say, if I was ever in a dunk competition, which I never would have been because I didn't have balance like that, and I looked over and saw you two jokers as the judges. What are we doing? You know, if you were in town, you could be right next to us. Yeah, if you knew how to get on a plane and cross the country. You know what I mean? All right, anyway. We're on the one-year anniversary of getting Raja to get on a plane and join us in San Francisco. What a time that was. It's such a great time that he's not doing it again. It's fine. All right. Room's mailbag at dreamo.com. Room's mailbag at dreamo.com. We talk too much. Uh-uh. All the shits. Talk to y'all soon. Bye.