Welcome to Music Matters Podcast with Darrell Craig Harris, talking about all things music with celebrities, artists, music business insiders and more. Well I came horsey. How are you doing today? I'm doing great. How are you? I'm good. So you are a busy guy. I love your music. I was just checking out last couple of days. And actually I should say there's a lot of different versions of you because there's the Latin music version of you. There's a soundtrack version of you. Your Latin Grammy nominated for your last album, which was Afro Bach came out February 2025. Really interesting, innovative sounds you got going on. And you would think, listening to that album, you would sort of think that you were kind of from Cuba or from, I don't know. But you kind of, where did you originally grow up? I grew up in Boston, Massachusetts. And I was always hanging out with the Latin musicians and the Latin jazz guys. And I was fascinated with Latin music my entire life. But I didn't actually go to Cuba to study until 2015, which was a life changing experience. How did you get to Cuba? What was the process like? Because I always actually add that to the back of my mind too. And I've known many Cuban musicians. They all have a big story with the family and stuff. How did you end up going to Cuba? My friend Aldo Mazza, who's a percussionist from Montreal with his company, Cosa Music, he runs a workshop in Cuba every year. And that year, I asked him if I could join and he said, of course. And so I went down and he and I have been very good friends since and it changed my life. But basically I got a chance to study with percussionists who, you know, guys who played in one of these social club and other timber groups at the time. You know, what was really amazing about that is, of course, I was learning little details that I didn't always know about certain rhythms that I like, you know, cha-cha-cha and so forth. But I hadn't really seen traditional rumba bands and timber bands from Havana until that time. I mean, it's crazy to think that that was my first exposure. And it really, really changed my life because there's an energy that Havana musicians have that is absolutely remarkable. And I don't think anybody in the world has it. And you hear it in Cuban music. You obviously hear it in Miami with the Cuban bands that are playing there. But it's very hard to preserve that, I think, when even the Cuban musicians leave the country because there's something about Havana. There's a magic to it. And I other people have talked about this. But it inspired me to have a certain kind of energy in a fusion project. You know, I mean, I love classical music that makes you just want to rip out your concert chair and charge the stage, you know. And I felt like the energy of Havana combined with the sort of majestic and mellifluous nature of Beethoven, Bach, and Mozart might make for an interesting project. So when I got back from Cuba, I did something called Beethoven and Havana. And I honestly, I really didn't have any idea what I was doing. I just basically, I didn't have a band at the time. So I made this kind of rumba slash timba version of Beethoven's Seven Symphony, the slow movement. And, you know, the movie, the King's Speech had just come out. So everyone kind of knew it, you know. Anyway, so this was just me trying it out. It was kind of the trial balloon for the project. And what ended up happening is I got some attention in Europe and I ended up touring in France doing two albums of fusion, fusion classical fusion with Caribbean rhythms. With the label in France. And then Afro Bach was the most recent thing I did independently. And that had a song called Bach's Cuban Concerto for Piano and Trace, which earned a Latin Grammy nomination this past year. And it's interesting because I'm a musician as well. And I've known a lot of musicians from Cuba, as I mentioned. And even guys, there are some very, very well known, celebrated guys. I live in Finland and they live at different places. It's interesting because you kind of, yeah, you kind of feel like there's been a, kind of a musical brain drain from Cuba. But even still, there's obviously many, many magnificent musicians that live there. And when I first heard your versions of these songs, I was like, yeah, he must be Cuban. We were just talking about that because it's so authentic, but it has such a unique twist. Who are some of your early influences musically that kind of, well, not only led to this, but led to being willing to experiment because classical music is kind of known for being fairly rigid. So tell me about that process and how that happened. So yeah, I studied classical music from a young age. And then in high school, I kind of switched into my jazz-only snob mode. And then I was really into, I was really into Chucho Valdez and Oscar Peterson and Horace Silver. And these were the guys I really, really liked. And, you know, then kind of did some rock and roll stuff after, after I got out of college in 2000 and then really got into film scoring, kind of like around 2004, which was in New York. I started doing jingles and things like that and working as an orchestrator. And then eventually moved to LA in 2009 and worked as an orchestrator here. But I'd been kind of a fusion pianist this whole time. I like playing lots of different styles of music. I like drawing a little bit from everything. But what was kind of nice is this was an opportunity to really revisit some of the great classical music that I loved. And, you know, some of the, some of the big pieces like the concertos and things like that, I never had a chance to perform those. And this was a way to sort of kind of go back to that. Of course, I really enjoy that music, but hadn't had a chance to sort of make something of that. And putting my own sort of spin on it with Cuban rhythms was really something that kind of just made me feel like I had something kind of cool to add. It was a nice opportunity to sort of do something that felt fresh. Yeah. And you want to, and those songs are, they're familiar songs that we've all heard growing up. And even if you weren't into classical music, those are melodies that are just kind of omnipresent in the, in the zeitgeist, right? Exactly. And I love the arrangements are really interesting. So you, I assume you did the arrangements. Talk about that because you use the instrumentation is interesting. Obviously, you're fusing Latin with classical and the Caribbean rhythms. Talk about how you approach that arranging and, and because you're also, you're arranging for small like quintet ensemble, then you're also arranging for more like a symphony orchestra thing. So the obviously different approaches. Talk, talk a little bit about that. Sure. Well, I think before even talking about the specific of the arrangement, I kind of, the game I'm playing with myself is, it's like a role playing game. Like what if Bach was in Havana? What if Bach was in Columbia in the time? So if we take a guy who actually didn't leave Germany during his lifetime, he went down to the border and kind of stole from the Italians. Thank goodness. Cause he made something great. But he, he basically didn't leave Germany and he was confined to that Baroque era, which is magic, which is why his music is the way it is. So the, the game I'm playing is, well, what if he was him and he was in Cumbia, for example, in, in Columbia, doing Cumbia rhythms, what would change? And it's kind of this little like, okay, well, how, how would he go? Because we all know that, that everyone who was an artist is highly influenced by their environment. They don't just sit in the room and come up with something entirely on their own. It's all, it's all about how their life is, is going. And so the reason I think of it like this is because obviously you're going to have to make choices and rhythm rearrangements and maybe even change some harmonies. But really what I'm trying to do is just trying to contain the attitude and personality of Bach in this case, if it's Bach or if it's Mozart or Beethoven, and also kind of have the swing of the rhythm that we're, we're doing. So that's kind of like the game or the, you know, the intentional problem that I've set up for myself. But I think the main thing about arranging is, so once I have that attitude, it's like, well, what's going to give it the most flavor? And, you know, it's interesting because with, with Cumbia, if you've ever been to Berenchia in Columbia and seen the carnival there, you know, traditional Cumbia, the way they do it, is absolutely amazing. And there's, there's nothing like it. And, you know, the way they do Cumbia there and Cumbia, the way it kind of evolved in Mexico and the styles that are similar to Cumbia that went to Panama and things like that. That's very regional, by the way. Yeah. It's all a little bit different, you know? So, so I really try to think about like, okay, you know, what, what is really happening here that makes the rhythm, the rhythm? And obviously it's the, it's the kind of orchestration of the percussion generally. But then also sometimes it's certain flavors like how they use guitars and flutes. And, and when that's really crucial, I think it's important to include it on the, on the arrangement. And so my albums have orchestral arrangements and quintet and sometimes featured musicians. And then I play concerts with orchestras and also with my quintet. Generally with my quintet, I'm playing in Europe. And my concerts in the US are with orchestra. Like we played Sun Valley this last summer, which was one of our most fun shows, you know? So we like to do everything. I basically, I'm arranging for everything. And, of course, I orchestrate for film scores all the time. I do my own scores and I sometimes orchestrate for other composers. So I know how to work with an orchestra. And this is kind of my opportunity to do something that feels a little bit different from the kind of things that orchestras typically play. So it's really fun. Yeah. And you get to have fun. And I'm sure, I'm sure it puts a smile on the face on the, for the symphony players, the string players, when they were used to play traditional Bach Beethoven, and they go, Oh, this is cool. Something different, which is really, really fun. So you mentioned film scoring a few times. And I know I was reading your background. So talk about who you've worked with. I know Disney is one of them, but you've worked with a lot of folks. And also talk about how you originally got into that. Sure. Well, right now, I write the music for a Disney Channel show called Big City Greens, which is in the middle of season five. I've been working on that for the last 10 years. And that's been a real pleasure. It's a great show that that we actually got an any award nomination for the movie version of Big City Greens. That was kind of nice. And I've written the music for different shows on ABC and HBO Max. And I've worked for other composers. I've worked for Chris Lenerts, and I've worked for Anton Sanko, and a couple other people. I've worked for Michael Buble, as an arranger. And I worked for Ben Folds. I orchestrated his piano concerto that he did. Awesome. And so I've been, I've really had a pleasure of working with a lot of different kinds of people. And one thing I think is really interesting is, you know, when you work with different musicians that have different backgrounds and different education and different places, what you really realize is, yes, it's important to have a good musical education when you're writing for film scores. But it's so much more important to have something to say. And there, you know, there are guys that have all sorts of different backgrounds, and they can all make a contribution. And sometimes they'll hire a guy like me, kind of like a nerd who knows the orchestra, you know. Right. And knows how to play strings, how to play, how to, yeah, exactly. Exactly. But what I really appreciate about working with other people is just how the really good artists, they're, they, they have their own point of view. And that I just really, really appreciate that. And so that's kind of the pleasure of collaborating with other people. And so, you know, I've, I really enjoyed collaborating with some guest artists on my latest album that included like Lucas Seb, who's a compa player, a compa guitarist from France, and Jen Del Tembo and Arito Cantora from Columbia, my good friends and amazing musicians, and of course, Olivia Soler on Bach's Cuban Concerto for piano and trace, that's the one that got the Latin Grammy nomination. But the next album I'm trying to work on, I'm actually going to try to do a lot more collaboration with musicians I like. That's actually, to be honest, that's the thing that's been the most joyful about the whole thing is I get to work with musicians from all over the world, Africa and the Caribbean mostly in South America. And now I'm talking to some musicians and the Andes and things like that. So I hope to just really get into more collaborations. It's a, it's a joy because I learn a lot. I see music from a different perspective. That's what it's all about, actually. Yeah. And it really broadens, it's really like being a painter, it broadens your palette, right? And you have, you collect your collecting phone numbers and collecting emails of people that you'd like potentially down the road. Maybe a project comes up or one, maybe it's your project. And you're like, oh, it'd be fun to try them on this and just experiment a little bit. What's been, what's been your experience with classical musicians that reacting to you reworking Bach tunes and reworking Beethoven and coming at it from a different perspective? How is that been for you? Do you feel like they're usually open to that or is it resistance or? I would say it's 99% positive, but you might be thinking of a few grumpy people who don't like when classical music is rearranged or changed. And all of that is, it's just a point of view. But I think it's a little interesting that people have these sort of strict rules that classical music can't be rearranged because the people who created classical music didn't have those rules. Beethoven didn't have those rules. Strauss didn't have those rules. Rachmanov didn't have those rules. Some of the best rearrangings they did were part of the repertoire. And so it was amazing to have that kind of arranging talent doing things. And I think it's, every, all composers kind of know that this is a way to honor people. I think, and also moreover, I think people forget that, you know, Beethoven was a total revolutionary. He didn't pay attention to the rules. And that's why we remember him. That's why when you read a music textbook, there's a whole chapter just on that guy, because he was that important. He was an entrepreneur. I mean, people say he's a rock star, but he was really an entrepreneur. He was the one who would tell, you know, Leopold, whatever, hey, I'm going to make you famous. I'm going to dedicate my symphony to you. Just give me the money to take care of it. And that's how he, that's how he did it. So he knew how to like pitch these ideas. He was incredibly innovative. And then musically, he broke all the rules. And he changed music forever. And ever since then, everyone's been trying to be as good as him. Exactly. So, I mean, I just feel like I don't think, I think it's a little bit strange to say you can't change Beethoven when Beethoven changed everything about music. I think that's exactly how to honor him. Yeah, I think you make a really good point that what if you dropped Beethoven or these different composers that we all grew up loving, you dropped them into Cuba, you dropped them into Columbia, what would happen today? What would they, what would they've been creating? And it's actually kind of fascinating to kind of fantasize a little bit about that, what, where they would have taken it, right? Yeah, it is fascinating. And, you know, it's an abundance mindset with music, like there's so many different ways to do music. Obviously, I'm not the first person to start rearranging classical music. Everyone's doing it in their own way. But what I'm hoping to do is I'm hoping that these arrangements become alternative performance choices for other musicians for the long term. You know, I already know a lot of people play Beethoven and Havana around the world, which is really fun to know. You know, I sell my sheet music on the website. And there are people amateur and professional pianists who, you know, grab the sheet music and incorporate into what they do. So that to me makes me really excited. And I'm looking forward to doing more of that. You know, the next album, I have a sort of frenemy relationship with Chopin. I've always been kind of intimidated with him. It's time to, it's time to sort of be brave and do a lot of Chopin arrangements. So I'm working on that stuff for the next record. Yeah, sometimes it's this big mountain you have to climb. Yeah, very intimidating. What do you think of the importance of exposing? Well, part of what you're doing, I think, is you're exposing your music in a fun way to a new generation that may not have grown up with classical music, but they go, Oh, I need to go listen to the original and see what that's about. What's the importance for you in that vein? Well, I'm glad you asked that because I really, I guess I could say I'm really an anti-elitist when it comes to music. I really want to make music for everybody. You know, one thing I know is when I go to a carnival or a world music festival, and let's say it's celebrating Cuban music in a particular city, obviously, you're going to get a lot of Cuban and Caribbean people there. But people who aren't from that region won't necessarily think that that party is for them. Of course it is. But what happens a lot of times with the symphony, you get the same issue. It's like, Oh, that's classical music. That's not for me. I want my music to be something that really is for everybody. And whether we're being programmed at a world music festival or whether we're being programmed at a symphony with an orchestra, I really want people to feel like they can understand the source material that we're working with, and they can really like feel invited into new kinds of music. Because at the end of the day, that's the joyful thing that I experienced when I went to Cuba. I went there and I had no idea where the downbeat was in rumba music, you know, like, yeah, sometimes it's hard to find exactly a lot of American musicians have this problem. They're like, Oh, they don't want to say it. Oh, my God, I have a clave clave like, Well, where's one? But then when you figure it out and you learn and it clicks, it's like a euphoric experience, because you feel like someone just opened up this treasure chest of of art and culture into your brain. And so it's quite mind blowing. So I really hope that my project gives that to other people, because that's been the happiest thing in my life. And so if I can get that to other people, I would feel like I made a real contribution. Yeah. And I think sometimes, you know, in particular musicians, we kind of we tend to forget why we got into music, where it's supposed to be fun. I mean, we study and we do that, we do all the stuff that you have to do to learn. But like, don't you shouldn't forget the joy. If you forget the joy, then you're kind of you're kind of forgetting the whole purpose, right? Exactly. That's exactly right. You know, I think a lot of times with classical music, you know, there's many different ways to put on a classical music concert, there are pops programs where they do all sorts of different things, you know, but I think what everybody is anxious about who does classical music is they're anxious that their core audience is getting older, and the younger audience isn't interested. Well, I actually think the younger audience is interested. It's just that there's so much more music. And I think that the it's just everyone has a different opinion on this. And I suppose we're all speculating because, you know, all of us who love classical music want classical music in its legitimate form to stick around, of course. But I have this sort of sideshow here that I think is kind of like this entrance. And kind of how do I say this accessible thing for people who aren't necessarily familiar with all the classical music that I love and that my friends love. And I hope that it's kind of like, I can be this kind of diplomat to get people, you know, really into this great stuff. And also, in reverse, you know, people who like classical music to get them into, you know, the music from the Caribbean and Africa too. So that's great. Yeah, you're kind of an ambassador of music, and you're taking our music to those places too, which is, I'm sure fascinating for them. Your interpretation and then incorporating them into what you're doing has got to be really fun. Yeah. Talk a little bit about, or actually, I should say, give some advice, if you would, to younger artists or younger people that would like to get into scoring for one thing. But then also maybe the entry level for classical, like, what were some artists that you would suggest anybody to just listen to? Well, okay, so for scoring, I think the most important thing is to just watch films, study film scores, study the old ones and the new ones, and then just start writing. I mean, you know, sequencers are so cheap, just start writing. You know, obviously, there are many good programs you can go to school for, but you don't have to start writing and then work on how to be an audio engineer, because a lot of times what happens is you can get a job as audio engineer or in music production for another composer. And that's one of the best ways to start. You kind of start as an intern, because a composer doesn't need another composer all the time. What they do need is somebody to deal with the audio stuff and run Pro Tools and all that. Who understands and really understands music at a core level. Exactly. So they're happy to hire someone who's passionate about film score, but not necessarily experience if they understand audio engineering. And, you know, audio engineering, you can teach you a lot of it to yourself. You can also, you know, just do internships at recording studios. So for me, that's how I got in. I was doing audio engineering. I knew Pro Tools and my first job in production was in New York at RK Music, and it was a jingle house. So that was 2003, and I knew Pro Tools. And I basically did like Pro Tools work and took out the trash, you know what I mean? It was like a very first job. What a great environment though to learn, right? Exactly. And I learned how to deal with clients and things like that. And that was really important. And then in terms of classical, getting into classical music, well, you know, the reality is I'm a bit of an outsider in the classical world, but of course, the conservatory is crucial for the classical world, you know, Juilliard and all the great schools. And I think that, you know, that's important if you want to be in a sort of orchestral traditional setting. For those who, you know, want to do things on their own, you just need to get a good teacher and get a good tone. And then you can kind of do things on your own, you know, there's lots of musicians that take an alternative route and they don't necessarily go to a conservatory to do something really cool. And maybe more than ever, there's less barriers to entry. But of course, since there's less barriers to entry, there's a crowded market. So I think the name of the game these days is more than ever, just really distinguishing yourself. And I think the best way to distinguish yourself is just to do the kind of music that you most love, because it'll show, you know, and don't try to do the music you think is going to make money that generally doesn't work out. Yeah, chasing that is can fry your brain basically. So what are you currently working on? What do you have coming up for your next release? And that I know, I don't know if it's secret, but I know you mentioned that you had some things in the works. Yeah, so I'm doing an album. And I think I want to call it Superfusion. And the idea is that in the previous Fusion records I was doing, I would be very intentional about taking one piece of music from, let's say Mozart and mixing it with a rhythm from let's say Cuba. And the idea was to be very deliberate and make sure that it was cleanly and traditionally this rhythm with this particular piece. And now I feel like especially because I know more than I used to when I started this project and I've learned more, and I have more collaboration potential, I just want to mix it up a lot more. Right now there are musicians from Nigeria who are playing Caribbean music and their own style and musicians from China doing stuff with Indian rhythms and it's great. And there's so much fusion. I feel like the vibe right now is Superfusion is to do things from different areas and just make it fun, make it danceable, make it interesting, always respecting the original stuff of course. But I don't feel it's necessary to stay in the box of just one country's rhythm. Because I think it's just more exciting to mix it all up. So I feel like that's going to be the next record, Superfusion. And yes, I'm going to be trying to tackle Chopin and with doing lots of practice early in the morning, late at night. Yeah, well, you know, it's nice to have things that are still challenging. I think it's important for our growth musically and as humans to always be challenging yourself. If you're only doing stuff that's comfortable and that you like a Nell this, then you're not really learning. Yeah, you get kind of stuck, right? Totally, totally. No, I mean, that's that's the thing. It's just like the gym. You get flabby if you don't, if you don't, you know, like mix it up. And I'm almost trying to push myself into something new. And, you know, sometimes I find myself like, I really don't know what I'm doing. One thing that's really nice is I do understand how to arrange things so generally, but sometimes specifically, I won't know some of the details. So for example, Venezuela is incredibly complicated and deep Caribbean music. And I understand it on a very surface level, but working with some Venezuelan percussionists, my guy, Jonathan Morocho-Gaviria, who I've recorded a lot with, he's been so helpful to me and showing me things. And so those kind of collabs, that's really where it's at for me. I really like getting like kind of having a general idea. And then he helps me really flush out the deep rhythms and getting it right. So that's really cool. Yeah, it's nice to really get to the original roots of what, you know, because even like things like reggae and all these different things, they spread throughout the world and every country has their own version, which is pretty, it's pretty fascinating to see where that gets taken, right? It is fascinating. And, you know, the Cuban music that evolved into salsa music through the immigration that happened in the 50s, 60s and 70s, obviously salsa music is Puerto Ricans and Cubans and Dominicans playing mostly Cuban rhythms. And that phenomenon, you know, it really became an American, a Latin American music, and it changed a little bit. And it was often the exact rhythms from Cuba, but it had this like urban style. It's very interesting. If you listen to a cha-cha-cha from the salsa eros like Ray Barreto, and then you compare that to how they played it in Cuba, there is a difference. There's a slightly different approach. And it's fascinating to me. It's almost just like one is like kind of like an uptight Manhattan, like tight thing, you know, like right, right. And then the island versions is a little bit more laid back, and they are both amazing in their own way. But I find that really, really interesting. It's like, when we're doing these arrangements, we kind of decide, okay, are we doing like the New York version? Exactly. Or what are we doing? You know, so I find that kind of stuff really, really interesting and seeing how things evolved and things change. Again, like Cumbia in Colombia, the version that kind of went into the Andes, which isn't called Cumbia anymore, it had a very kind of different kind of laid back thing that they, and so they took to their own own own sort of flavor. And then as everything you do with immigration patterns and, you know, the history of Africans and natives, and it's all very fascinating to me. And I love learning about that. So that stuff is great for me. And it's interesting too, because obviously music, especially in cultures like Latin America, it's music is life. It's, you know, these kids grow up two years old dancing to Cumbia. It's different. I mean, so like you could study that, but it's you have to really go down there and really immerse yourself because it's just different, right? Yeah, yeah, I think about this all the time, because of course, when I'm meeting musicians that are from Colombia and I'm trying to learn Cumbia, I'm very like, please teach me, I, you know, please help your American friend figure this out. Please help your gringo friend. Exactly, please help me, please help me swing. And so what's great is generally people are so open, they're so happy to share. But also what I came to appreciate is that, you know, it's kind of like if you start learning Spanish, you will probably always speak with an accent. But if you really learn it, and you learn how to say everything, it's okay to have an accent, it's okay, but you can still be a poet with an accent. In fact, it's kind of nice, it's kind of neat. So I know that I'm always going to have my accent because I wasn't born in Colombia, and that's totally fine. And I don't have any problem with that. And neither, no one else does either. It's just you kind of have to be okay with who you are and where you are. Now, obviously, all the technical things, where to put the rhythms, how to stay in the group, we all got to know that. But there's always going to be something that I do that's maybe a little bit more American than, you know, a guy who's from Cuba, for example. Yeah, as it should be, right? As it should be. And that's actually really, really great. So, you know, it's funny because so much of this project is me just learning things that are from places where I was not born. And of course, when I started, I was quite self conscious because I was like, I really want to get this right. I really love this music. I don't want to be just, you know, sloppily going through this. But right now, I feel a lot more like I know what I'm doing, but more I'm excited to sort of like push myself to explore even deeper. And that to me is great. I'm always trying to be on the frontier of how I can play and what I know, because I think that's kind of where the magic happens. Yeah, you know what? And that's all about just respecting the music and the culture. And I think those guys and musicians that you're working with, they know that you have a reverence for what you're doing. And that's really the thing. And like, we all have to learn that, I'm sure. And they're learning plenty from you too, because a lot of those guys didn't go to university, they didn't do that. So, it's a great opportunity for them as well to kind of learn that side of things, which is, which is, I think, great. Let people know how they can find you if they want to check out the music and in your website and all that information. Okay, well, of course, all my music is on Spotify, Apple Music, Koda and all those other streamers, but yoahimhorsely.com or littlehorsemusic.com, either one, it's just my website. And if you forget all that, you can just Google Beethoven in Havana and you'll find my YouTube channel. And you'll, you'll, you can go down the rabbit hole of all my stuff. Yeah, and your YouTube, your YouTube channel is very for real. I very much encourage people to check that out because it's one thing to hear the music, but then to see the joy and the passion from the other musicians and yourself who are actually playing it live is really fun. It's very, it's very engaging. I really enjoy checking that out. Everybody, please check out AfroBok and all your other selections, because it's a very wide range of styles and music, but it's all quality, it's all, you can tell it's done with love and passion, which is how music should be done, you know, in my humble opinion. But thank you so much for joining me. I know you're a very busy man. If you get out, I know you're an ally, if you come out Las Vegas or if you have shows in LA, please let me know. I'd love to come see you. Oh, I'd love that. I'd love to see you. Yeah, great. That would be really fun. And I'm going to put all your information on the podcast description, including your website. I'll put your Spotify link and your YouTube link so people can easily find you and have fun with it. Great, great. Oh, thanks so much. It was great talking to you. You too. Have a great day. You too. All right, bye-bye. All right, ciao. Thanks for joining us. And please consider subscribing to our podcast and follow us on our social media pages for guest announcements.
