Early Medieval Croatia

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Hello, I'm Dr. Ellen Yarniger and welcome to Gone Medieval from HistoryHit, the podcast that delves into the greatest millennium in human history. We uncover the greatest mysteries, the gobsmacking details and the latest groundbreaking research from the Vikings to the Normans, from kings to popes to the Crusades. We delve into the rebellions, plots and murders that tell us who we really were and how we got here. After this, the Sun-drenched Dalmatia coast where the sapphire Adriatic laps against ancient stone walls. We think we know this place with its Venetian harbours and Roman ruins. But what if everything we thought we understood about medieval Croatia was wrong? Who were the people who built the first Croatian kingdom along this contested coastline? What if their very identity was far more complex, more contested, more fascinating than the simple narratives we've inherited? How did Dalmatia's unique position between the Latin West and the Greek East, between emerging Slavic societies and fading Roman traditions, create a medieval world that defies our modern categories? Today I'm joined by Professor Florin Kerta from the University of Florida, whose groundbreaking work has fundamentally changed how we understand the birth of nations in Eastern Europe. Professor Kerta doesn't just read the chronicles, he excavates the silences between them. He's argued that the Slavic identity itself may have been less in ancient ethnic truth and more a political instrument, forged in the crucible of Byzantine frontier politics. It's a perspective that has sparked fierce debate and hopefully will be enjoying a little bit of that here today. We'll discover a Dalmatia that was never a passive recipient of civilizations, but an active architect of its own destiny. The story of how frontiers became homelands, how identities are forged in conflict, and how the medieval world of Dalmatia shaped the Europe we know today. Professor Kerta, welcome to God Medieval. Thank you, thank you for having me. Well, I'm very pleased to have you, because I have brought you here in order to up the amount of Slavicism happening on God Medieval, and in particular, kind of a tricky one to get you on today, because we want to talk about medieval Croatia and Croatia as a concept, really ebbs and flows in the medieval period. And also, it's difficult to cram this all into one show, because this is an area where we have just absolutely excellent documentation for the entirety of the medieval period and before. So it's hard to know where to start. I would say, adding to that, that in addition to the written documentation, which I think you had in mind, there's been an explosion of archaeological research and historical, should I say, synthetical works based on that, or at least trying to combine the written with the archaeological evidence with fascinating results, I would say probably one of the most dynamic areas of historical slash archaeological research in the pool of the Balkans. Which is really saying something as well, because there are exciting things coming out of the field of Balkan studies constantly. I've worked for a while on the laws of medieval Croatia project, so I'm a little in the weeds on this one, and I must admit that. But I suppose if we were going to start talking about medieval Croatia, I think that we actually sort of have to begin before the so called fall of the Roman Empire. I think that 476 is actually even a little bit late for our purposes, because what are we looking at before Western Rome falls? So the area we're talking about here is, I must say divided, but constituted a major province, Dalmatia. In other words, the geography of the area makes it clear that one would have the eastern shore of the Adriatic Sea with a number of cities. There's a specific feature, geographically speaking, of that area, large number of large and small islands along the coast, providing excellent shelter for ships, so harbors. And beyond a narrow strip of land on the coast, you get the mountains, and beyond the mountains, it's a completely different landscape. Culturally, obviously, geographically and historically speaking, which is why most people actually link Dalmatia to developments within the larger Adriatic Sea, which obviously would actually have been a Roman thing to do before even the Empire. So it's actually probably already a republican development, a development of the republican phase of Roman history. And the interior, which posed problems of government, problems of transportation, roads, things like that, as a consequence of which the present day territory of Croatia is, in fact, divided between two, maybe even three provinces. So what we call Northern Croatia nowadays was part of Panonia in the Roman Empire. I should say that Illyricum as a whole, in other words, the area in the north-western Balkans was a province or a region of interest for the Romans. You mentioned when to start, maybe at the time of the three Punic Wars, even something like that. So BC by all means, and the republican government, as I said. But if we are going to go into medieval developments, I would say that, number one, you're right, 476, the so-called fall of the Roman Empire. In fact, the end of the Roman Empire as an institution, not a fall, proper speaking, does not have much of a bearing on the area here, nor does its company label great migrations, barbarians coming in. As a matter of fact, in the history of the Balkans, this region is very interesting in the sense that there is very little, I'm not saying that it was completely devoid of so-called barbarian invasions, but their impact on the region is much, much smaller than that, let's say, the central Balkans or areas further to the east, like in present-day Bulgaria or Greece even. So well into the sixth century, definitely within the two decades of the seventh century, there's not much evidence of destruction perpetrated supposedly either by the fall of the Roman Empire or by the barbarian invasions. Since the interior was very rich in metal ores, there's even evidence of mining. Right at the border between what would be today Croatia and Bosnia, specifically on the upper Neredava Valley. And the mining there, as far as we can tell, may have well survived or can continue rather well into the sixth century. That being a peculiar Roman flavor, which explains why this region is distinct in the whole of Europe for another reason, after in the post-Roman era. There is no evidence of discontinuity in the urban empire. In other words, on the Dalmatian coast, you have places like Zadar, like Troghier, like Split that continued with no interruption whatsoever from the Roman into the modern times, I should say, because they're still occupied. So there is no gap. There is no such thing as a demise of the cities, maybe revived in the Middle Ages and so on. So obviously they shrank in size, but the transformations taking place could by no means be described in terms of destruction, catastrophe, etc. And these are sizeable cities as well. I mean, these are cities that have a real footprint. Spalato was quite clearly large. I mean, even if they were not as large as, let's say, Syrmium further up north, Seren's Kamitrovisan nowadays, or Thessalonica, Thessalonica nowadays in Northern Greece, it was smaller than that. They had a political significance, considered the fact that after introducing reform of the Roman government in the late third century, known as the tetraki, Emperor Diocletian, who was a member of the first team, decided to retire. And when did he go? Spalato. Exactly. I mean, I think that it's going to be somewhere where a lot of our visitors may have seen because Split is this big tourist destination anymore for just that reason. I'm quite interested though, in this point that you've made about how we don't see that much disruption at this point in time in the sort of Roman successor states period. Because we do see so-called barbarians move into the area. I mean, at least around what is now Zalgrab, we certainly see some Ostergothic intrusions, but we just don't see the same level of violence or at least upheaval. The area beyond the mountains, let's say, let's put it this way. Northern Croatia nowadays had the name in Roman and post-Roman times, Liburnia. That area is indeed, or witnessed indeed, not that the destruction, but the disappearance, simply abandonment of large urban settlements, probably as early as the fourth century, but that has nothing to do with the invasions themselves. It may have something with the processes taking place inside the empire. In Slavonia, which is the region you mentioned, Zagreb being most prominent in the area there, presently the capital of the country, that's an area which is in fact the southern part of the province of Pannonia, which I mentioned earlier on. And its history, including the presence or absence of barbarians in the area, is linked to developments there. What is very interesting is that whatever developments were there had no reflection or very little reflection on developments on the Dalmatian coast, the two being separated by mountains. So let's say you have indeed, you have the Ostrogoths in the area, under the order of moving through the area towards Italy, which they conquer. You have the Lombards there later on, descending into the same region of Italy through the same area. It's a must. Two areas that connect Pannonia with Italy, north-eastern Italy, would be involved in this no matter what you do. This is the area of Slavonia, of present-day Croatia, and Slovenia too, so the neighboring country to the northwest. There's no way you can avoid that because in order to cross to the passes of the Eastern Alps, you have to go through there, coming from Pannonia, that is. But all of this is almost parallel, almost like nothing, no results, no echoes in the settlements on the coast, on the coast of the Adriatic Sea. So those are, sometimes they're parallel developed. It's almost like you have two distinct history lines to actually connect them. Every now and then there are connections. For example, later on in the 6th century, when the Abbas come into Pannonia, into the present-day area of Hungary, we learn from a sourcing Constantinople that the Abbas sent a group of Kutrigus. Those were nomads from the steplands north of the Black Sea, which they had probably drawn on all the way to Pannonia, send them all to Dalmecia, and they sack some of the towns there and so on and so forth. And there has been some attempt to actually link a few cases in which on fortified sites in continental Croatia, you see burned layers, layers of destruction in archaeological terms to link it to the presence of the Kutrigus there. But it's very little actually of them. And in fact, the source tells us that although they were sent to Dalmecia, they were actually stalked by Roman troops that actually managed to ambush them. In the end, it was not so much destruction of the Roman settlements in the area as of the troops, Abbas or Kutrigus, that sector. So what do we see then in these areas with the arrival of the Slavs? I was given to understand that certainly we do see Slavs move into the area around Dalmecia, but this doesn't seem to make a huge dent in terms of the makeup of, for example, the patrician class in towns. It seems to be that there are old school Dalmatians who are controlling the cities and Slavs are a little bit more in the countryside. But is that overly simplistic as a way of seeing it? It's problematic. There are three reasons I can think of that, actually makes it problematic. Indeed, what you just said earlier on is the traditional, the scenario offered by the traditional historiography, thinking that in the case of the Dalmatian coast, Croatia and whatnot, not Western Balkans, the actual migrations, Greek migrations are not those of the Ostrogos or the Lombards or the Huns or whatever, but those of the Slavs, which will obviously be laid. The problem is, this is a second element, the problem is that recent scholarship, recent studies, I include myself in that not to blow my own horn, but because I actually did offer a comparative view with the situation of the Slavs on the Lower Danube, around 500, with that south of the Danube, including the areas of North-Western Balkans. But others have picked up on my ideas. A Australian historian, for example, of Bosnian Croatian origin, Daniel Gino, who is a professor in Sydney. He wrote a book about this. Actually, there's no evidence in the written sources of Slav settling in the area. We know that they're actually coming to mentions of them invading not the area here, but actually Istria, so in the northern part of the Adriatic Sea, away from Dalmatia and Croatia, continental Croatia, probably speaking. But there is no written source saying that they settled in the air. Moreover, archaeologically speaking, since this is actually the argument that is usually made for the period we're talking about here, the archaeological evidence does indicate in certain cases the number of churches that seem to be destroyed by fire. But there is no reason for which this will be done by the Slavs. Moreover, again, there are no settlements. Probably the most interesting aspect of this discussion is that the pottery from an archaeological point of view all over Europe the Slavs are identified, let's put it this way, by at least three elements. One is the sunken floor buildings, sunken on purpose in order to create an insulation for the inhabitants, either warmer in the winter or cooler in the summer. No such thing in Croatia, none so far from. Handmade pottery over certain attributes, so-called praktype pottery, after settlements and cemeteries, excavated in the 20s and 30s of last century in the city of Prague. And indeed, there is no evidence of that kind of pottery that could be dated the 7th century in the area, either. And perhaps the most impressive of all elements, cremation cemeteries. Given the fact that by the time we're talking about here, so 4th, 5th century, 6th century, within this area under Roman control, inhumation was the predominant right, you would expect cremation to stand out precisely in the sense of like a contrast agent, if you want, or the presence of those barbarians, whomever they are. The earliest cremation cemeteries that have been radiocarbon dated on the territory of present-day Croatia cannot be dated before year 700. And most likely, you're not linked to the invasions that we're talking about here. So what do we do with this? I proposed initially and Daniel developed the argument even further that probably no invasions actually took place in Dalmatia. And the presence of the sloughs that you mentioned earlier on is actually an acculturation process in which language must have been involved. And that brings me to the last part of your question. Indeed, that must have affected the rural areas, not the urban ones. Or if they affected the urban ones, that's a way later phenomenon of the high middle ages and late middle ages, the earliest times when we hear from the written sources that Slavic-speaking population had access into the cities. The cities remained Roman. The countryside changed, changed not just in terms of language, there are other changes happening in the area there. The patterns, economic patterns of the cultivation of the soil that existed in Roman times are abandoned in favor of much simpler forms. So this is not an ethnic or not only an ethnic change. Nobody denies that there may have been people coming from the not proper from the area of the caganate, which I mentioned is Panonia, right? So nobody denies the possibility of small scale migrations, but nothing like a huge mass of people coming into the area and replacing the local population on the country. But there is clear indication of a fundamental change in the social and economic profile of the area between let's say 600 and 800. I think that that is a far more interesting story, actually, because I think it's so easy to kind of... I mean, I'm not trying to convince anyone. That's what it is. If anybody can tell a better story, let's hear it. Let's hear it. It's so interesting. Obviously, as someone who works on the Czech lands, we have these really obvious incursions of Slavs. I've worked on digging up some of the cemeteries. Here, the problems are more like dates. Indeed, we have evidence from the written sources of a polity of a... I don't want to call it a state, but some do. The information in question comes from a seven century Frankish chronicle attributed to one unknown author whom later historians called Fredegar. And the chieftain, also called king by Fredegar, of that polity is a man named Samo. And Samo ruled over the Wends. Exactly where Samo's polity was is not quite clear, but at least some of the parts of the present day Czech lands may have been covered by it. There's also quite clear evidence of a seven century massive presence of the elements I just described to you, all three, right, in the Czech lands, but not earlier than that. So, area of present day Czech Republic, Slovakia, and North Eastern Austria, the argument is not so much whether or not their Slavs are coming. If they are coming, where they are coming from, are they coming from Marias, let's say, further to the East, such as Ukraine, or they are coming from the Carpathian Basin, from the area at that time already conquered by the Abbas, and at what moment in time? In Dalmatia and in the entire area of Northwestern Balkans, including this Bosnia as well, to some extent is true for Serbia, but only to some extent. The argument is completely different. There is no evidence of migration whatsoever. So, you have to provide an explanation that actually would emphasize the social and economic transformations, not so much the replacement of one group of population with an arm. So, you've mentioned now that some of the sources that we're using for this are coming via the Franks, and this is sort of, by the time we get to the 9th century, there is some sort of back and forth between the Eastern Roman Empire and the Franks as to who is going to control Dalmatia. Can you tell us a little bit about what happens there? So, the encroachment, Frankish encroachment to this area comes as a direct consequence of two historical processes. One is the incorporation of Bavaria into the Frankish realm. Bavaria had been connected with the Franks for quite some time right now, but it also, by virtue of matrimonial alliances, was connected to Lombard, Italy, both of which were close to what we're talking about here, the Northwest, and the second, probably most important aspect, the defeat of the Abbas by the Frankish armies under Charlemagne. It is after that, after the defeat, the demise of the Abbas, that a true march-like intrusion into the area, through the extension of the Dacio Friuli in what is today the Northeastern Italy. So, the area on the northern shore of the Adriatic Sea becomes significant. Now, two points here about this that actually explain the conflict, as you mentioned, between the Franks and the Byzantines. Number one is who's going to have control of Istria, which besides the fact that has a role in the navigation roads, in the sailing roads in the northern part of the Adriatic Sea, was in fact a granary, another area in which you don't see any destruction whatsoever. Until the 9th century, it's almost like a smooth continuity from late antiquity to the middle ages. We have a fantastic document called the Plachitum, as a minutes of a judicial meeting, let's put it this way, of Rizano, or Rizano nowadays, describing the realities on the ground in Istria, in a way that is without peril anywhere in Europe at that time. And it looks like Roman society, the document itself is 9th century, early 9th century. So, that's one. And the other equally significant is the presence of Venice in the area. Venice, sitting in Italy that has no Roman roots, it's a medieval city, in the true sense of the word, was at that time part of the Byzantine Empire. And Venetians are by now rising to actually control the eastern coast of the Adriatic Sea. So, out of this quite complex configuration comes a conflict, right, between the Franks and the Byzantines, complicated by two other phenomena. The rise of, most likely the rise of some kind of party to achieve them, of the local Slavs, as you mentioned them, in Croatia proper, and the earliest raids of the Arabs, coming from the Mediterranean Sea against some of the towns on the southern part of the east Adriatic coast. Ragusa, presented Dubrovnik, was put under siege by the Arabs towards the end of the line. The agreement between the Franks and the Byzantines in the area was reached the so-called Treaty of Aachen, through which the Byzantines retained control over the coast, because they wanted to have control over those towns that remain Roman, as I mentioned. They retained formal control over Venice as well. The Doge of Venice was essentially a duke, that's what the Italian word actually means, of the imperial administration in the Byzantium, while the Franks retained control of Istria, hence the plakitum of the of the Gianna dimension to you, and the interior, in other words, away from the coast in what is today Croatia proper. Those are the circumstances in which there is an explosion of Frankish influence, Frankish culture, Frankish weapons, Frankish modes of thinking in the interior, all of which are connected to the rise of Croatia as a medieval state. And then we get in the actual rise of Croatia and the establishment of a kingdom that we can point at and call Croatia in about 425, is that correct? No, no. So the developments that we talk about here, so the earliest Frankish influence that we can talk about is probably middle or second half of the 8th century, but the true developments, the explosion and all of that is shortly after 800, coincides in other words with Charlemagne's involvement in the area and the involvement of his successor, Louis the Pius, in the area as well. Then there's a number of dukes, a number of rulers, right, that are mentioned either in local inscriptions, maybe we can talk about this, or in the correspondence of the Pope, who's clearly interested in exactly when those people got became Christian, nobody knows, there's no mission, there's no nothing, but suddenly the Popes are interested in that area as if it has already had tradition of being Christian for quite some time. So from the letters or the inscriptions we're learning about a number of dukes, they are called dukes, right, Branimir is one of them, for example, or Tripimir even earlier, and then by the 10th century, so after 900, okay, we hear from the correspondence of the Pope in relation to a couple of synods, church gatherings that took place in Split 925-928, in relation to that we hear that the ruler, the chief, the leader in the area there, Tomislav, is not called a duke anymore, is called a king. So if you want to really put your finger on the chronology of the area, I'll say around 900 or around there, at least in the eyes of the Pope, this individual is not a duke anymore, is not a small leader, is something. Yeah, see, that's, I suppose that I'm quite familiar with this specific origin story of Tomislav being the king and then I'm kind of tacking it on to the idea that, ah, this is a kingdom now, but I guess that I'm also really dependent on people's correspondence for that idea as well, so yeah. So the synod is very interesting, there are a lot of issues to discuss, to be discussed, but in both 925 and 928, three issues on the agenda of those council stand out. One, I'll profile earlier the discussion about which towns, which cities were important in the area here. Both synods took place in Split, and there was a bishop there, obviously, in Split, but it seems that had been a conflict of some sorts between the local bishop in Split and the bishop of a town, city, what do you call it, further up north, that's on the northern part of an area of Penicillin next to Zadar called Avni Kotar. The town in question is Nin, and we have no idea when that bishop was created there, probably in the context of the power center of the earlier dukes of Croatia being there. That area, northern area of Avni Kotar is called to this day Vkhirvati, you know, there's the area of the Croats, and maybe you can talk about this, Croats is probably not an ethnic name initially, but the name of an aristocratic group, the ruling group, the elite. Be that as it may, that bishop in Nin is in some kind of dispute with Split, probably because they cannot decide which, where should the boundaries between their respective dioceses be placed. That's the context in which the pope's legates, the envoys of the popes, want to intervene and settle the affairs there. The final decision in that respect was to abolish the bishop Rikovnin, and that turned the bishop of Split into an archbishop, he was in other words a metropolitan by now, with jurisdiction not just over entire Dalmatian coast, but over the interior as well. Historians therefore think that this may have been a deal with Tomislav, whereby he agreed to have that bishop Rikovnin, which had been probably under control of his predecessors, abolished in exchange with now having a single kingdom, Croatia, and a single church based on the archbishop Rikov Split, who became in other words the primate of the country. A second aspect discussed council was whether or not to use Slavonic as the leader g. This is the first time we hear about this. In fact, in a letter to the bishops in Dalmatia, the pope, I think it's John the 10th, if I'm not mistaken, I'm not quite sure with anyone, but I think it's the pope, writes, I want you to move away from what he calls metodidoktrina, the teachings of metodius. Now, as far as we know, metodius never reached Croatia. So neither Konstantin slash Cyril or metodius came to this area ever. In other words, their teachings were coming from more ravia from the eastern part of present day Czech Republic all the way down, right? By some sort, we don't know exactly how it's happened. But from this moment onwards, the use of Slavonic for the liturgy and use of glagolitic as opposed to the Cyrillic alphabet for rendering the sounds of the language becomes a matter of identity in Croatia, at least for some people in the area, specifically churchmen. The third element in this discussion, and there's a third point on the agenda of the two councils, I mentioned 925, 928, is how in fact legates or envoys of the pope that will come from now on into Croatia will have actually a particular place to stay all the time. In other words, there's a concern with establishing a regular line of communication between Rome and Croatian kingdom. But I think this is a really important point because we do have to an extent here, it's like clash between the church and Konstantinople, right? Because Konstantinople very much considers that this area should be at least somewhat under their sphere of power. Is that correct? Correct, you're right. And by the way, there's a revival of the Byzantine influence. So now it looks like in the 9th century it's receding. I should immediately say that in response to this encroachment of the Franks, the Byzantines create the technical war for the province in the Byzantine Empire during this time is theme, not the theme of a musical piece or the theme of a novel theme, which meant a province in which the general leading the troops from, recruited from that area was also the governor, civilian attributes, and the supreme judge there. Okay, so it's a very decentralized form of government, unlike that of the early Roman Empire. It's a reaction of the Byzantines to the stress and to the shrinking borders, specifically the fight with the Arabs in these. So in the area here, Dalmatia is transformed into a theme in Provence, exactly this moment in time, headed that the general dimension to you was actually his residence was in Zadar. So Zadar is very interesting. Split is in the south. Zadar is next to Nîmes, as I mentioned, early on the two centers, the north remain Byzantines, the south or center, or rather, is maybe not Frankish, but clearly pro-Roman in the sense of the pro or the church of Rome. We move into the centuries of the 11th century. There is a restoration of Byzantine, first half of the 11th century. There's a restoration of the Byzantine rule in the area here, quite clearly influenced there. As you move into the second half of the 11th century, as you know, in 1054, there's a split of the church with the Great Schism, west and east, Catholic and Orthodox. Nobody seems to be concerned about this here. There's no animosity. There's no condemnation. There is no either from either side. And in the 12th century, the last time, under Manuel I, Comnenus, this is the third major emperor of the Comnenian dynasty established by Alexios Comnenus, the emperor who called for the Crusades in the first place. He didn't call for the crusades, he called for help, but the crusades ensued from that. And under Manuel, there's actually a deep involvement in the area with the Archbishop of Split, Rainier, traveling all the way to Constantinople, shower with gifts and whatnot. Rainier is a Catholic bishop. He's well-received in Constantinople by a Byzantine emperor. Wow, that is really interesting. And all of this is happening within three or four decades before a pope, Alexander III, coming from Rome in his trip to actually get in touch with and negotiate with Emperor Frederick Barbarossa, stops in Zadar. So, while the Roman Catholic clergy in the area, there are two points of pressure, the competition with the Orthodox clergy, but really that's not an issue until the fall of Constantinople to the Crusaders, 1204. And the actual fault lines, battle lines, if you want to put them between the Orthodox and the Catholic in the area, are rather a high medieval or late medieval phenomenon. Okay, number one, number two, in the high Middle Ages, in the 11th, 12th, 13th century, there's a conflict between the Papacy and the Holy Roman emperors, German emperors. And there's a reflection on that in the area here. In fact, I would go as far as to say that the end of the independence of the Kingdom of Croatia, right, in the late 11th century, comes as a consequence of just that, not as a consequence of the conflict between Rome and Constantinople. So, get that Toyota electric feeling with the all-new, all-electric Toyota Urban Cruiser, available with 0% APR representative and £1,500 deposit contribution, and save £1,500 with the Toyota Electrified Saving. Visit your nearest Toyota centre, Gemca Enfield. Priced from 2995, available on Toyota PCP and financed through Toyota Financial Services by 30th June, 2026. Optional final payment and damages may be required, see website conditions apply. When life won't stop, there's no need to miss freshness. With Femfresh, you get on-the-go skincare that's effective, gentle and pH balance, especially designed for your intimate area. Anytime, anywhere, stay unstoppable. Femfresh. Ever wondered what it feels like to be a gladiator, facing a roaring crowd and potential death in the Coliseum? Find out on the Ancients podcast from History Hit. Twice a week, join me, Tristan Hughes, as I hear exciting new research about people living thousands of years ago, from the Babylonians to the Celts to the Romans, and visit the ancient sites which reveal who and just how amazing our distant ancestors were. That's the Ancients from History Hit. That is incredibly interesting because I just don't know that there's anywhere else I can really say we see this same set of circumstances. And it's just testament to, I suppose, almost the diplomatic powers of the people who live in this place and also how important they are. This is a group of people that you just sort of want to keep happy. You really want the dalmatians to be on your side, I suppose. There is a commercial factor here as well. Those are very rich cities and they participate in the trade. I think it's a great opportunity to be able to see the world and to see the world and to see the world. I really want the dalmatians to be on your side, I suppose. There is a commercial factor here as well. Those are very rich cities and they participate in the trade. So if you are in Constantinople, for example, and concerned about maintaining control over and contact with Venice, then you need all those stops on the eastern Adriatic coast. If you are looking from the Roman perspective, then Dalmatia is right next to Hungary and Hungary now becomes, after year 1000, becomes a major power in the Eastern Europe. So in order to establish contact with Hungary, you need this area as well. So you're right. It's an intersection of power spheres that transforms this area into probably one of the most fascinating for understanding how people on the ground could navigate great power interests and maintain a sense of independence and a sense of identity. Probably the most interesting aspect of this is that while out of the conflict between the Pope and the emperor, Holy Roman Emperor, known in the history of the Middle Ages as the investiture controversy, came the concern of that pope who started it all, Gregory VII, to implement the Gregorian reform in the area they were talking about here. Meaning, first of all, celibacy of the clergy, not because of the moral aspect, but in order to prevent the priests or bishops who leave their offices in inheritance to their sons. The big elephant in the room for the Gregorian reform is cimony. That is to say, the idea of selling church offices, either lay church offices or monastic positions, Abbot. For mining or some equivalent material of that. That's why the Pope also want to endorse among other things, a moral code for the clergy and pushing the secular interference in the church affairs away. That's a problem in Croatia because as far as we know, as I said, there is no point at which we can put the finger chronologically speaking and say this area was converted to Christianity in the year such and such. There's no such thing. We actually are in the dark completely about how the process took place. However, before year 800, there are already churches built. There's quite clear indication not just of Christianity accepted in principle, but of the elites, members of the elites being involved in promoting it. Because most of those churches obviously are not built by Benedictine monks who come into the area for sure, but they are built by the local elites there. Those elites are not going to let those churches be run by anybody else but themselves. In other words, those are their proprietary churches. They think of them as an attribute of their local power there. Now, forwarding time into the second half of the 11th century and you'll see the Pope's being quite upset about this. You cannot have a church in which the local ruler places the priest and then cranes the revenue of the church for his benefit. You cannot have that. So when the church reform is pushed into the area here, remember I told you earlier on that one of the three points discussed at the Synod 925-928 in Split was the use of Slavonic in the liturgy. So in the 11th century, we have a rebellion, quote-unquote, of two bishops in the northern part of Croatia and the Kvarnar archipelago, the islands of Osor and Krk. Both those bishops decided we're not going to go with the Gregorian reform. We're going to have specifically Slavonic as a liturgy in the church. And the Pope is really upset about this. He's so concerned about this that he's actually right to Sven E. Stritzen, king of Denmark, asking him maybe he would have a fleet to go all around Europe and take care of those heretics. Wow. We have the letter. In other words, quite clearly indicating that I can read this. Probably the Pope was already toying with an idea of crusade. Yes. And this is an incredibly important point, I think, because we do certainly see Croatia become victimized by varying crusaders over time. Certainly, I think by the 13th century, we are seeing direct attacks on Zadar, for example. One of the participants in the first crusade that ended up conquering Jerusalem, Reimontov, or Thoulouse actually traveled, I don't know if you know, but different commanders of the crusade. The first crusade was not a royal crusade. It was actually a grassroots movement. So each one of them actually traveled by different routes to all of them meeting Constantinople and discuss with Alexios what to do. And one of them actually traveled through Croatia, properly speaking, and Reimontov Aguiler, who is the chronicler of that group, tells us how difficult the trip was. They consider this country to be completely... So this is late 11th century, when not only we have churches, but we have intervention of the popes in the area, as you might not. Yet the crusaders perceive this area as being completely pagan and killing people randomly and so on and so forth. I mean, this is crusaders all over, isn't it? They get to places, they don't understand these people are Christian, they kill them. Well, in 1204, they saw a city that was Christian and sected. Well, yeah, quite so. And I mean, this is the thing, right? Is that in 1204, we see them second Constantinople, but we also see them sacking Zadar around the storm as well, right? Yes, absolutely right. So that was less a matter of pagans. It was a matter of the crusaders being in a binder that they actually had signed up a contract with the Venetians, that they would pay them for a certain amount of ships. Unfortunately, the Venetians provided all the ships, they got the contract of the latter. But there were fewer crusaders than they had anticipated, therefore they could not pay. And the old doge of Venice, Ricodandolo, offered them as a solution, hey, how about in two, three from some of that debt, you do a job for us. Zara at that time, I mentioned Croatia, ending as a kingdom and Hungary taking over. First with King Gladys last the first and then King Coloman, who was actually crowned as King of Croatia, Slovenia, Dalmatia, Hungary, Croatia, Dalmatia, Slovenia in 1102 in Biograd. Because of that, there's quite clearly a Hungarian influence by now. What was not possible in the early Middle Ages, the influence from Panonia crossing the mountains into Dalmatia. Now it's possible because they're part of the same kingdom. There's a bishopric founded in Zagreb, Safargan of the Archbishop of Estargó, the center of the country. Dalmatian rim remains independent, however, none of the less the Hungarians get involved in the election of the Archbishop of Split. They want Hungarians in that office, not people from elsewhere. So there's quite an encroachment of Hungarian power in the area there. Come early 13th century, the two sons of Bella III, the Hungarian king who took the crusading vows, could not fulfill them because he died in the meantime. One of them is ruling in Hungary, Emetic, and the other one, future King Andrew II, has this region, Croatia and Dalmatia as a sub-kingdom. He declares in Sembaduc there and runs the thing as if it's an independent kingdom. And as a consequence of that, when the crusaders are dealing with Venice in terms of the contract there, Zara, whom the Venetians wanted the crusades to take, was in fact in Hungarian hands. Let me translate this. That means it was actually in the hands of a power that not only was Christian, but on the Bella III signed for the crusade. Can you wrap your mind around this? So could you please talk Zara, which is a Christian crusading city, you crusaders, could you conquer a crusading city? That's the Venetians though. The Venetians will do anything provided that it... And as you know, the inhabitants of the city basically lower crosses on the walls and say, hey, what are you doing? What are you doing? I mean, this is the complexities that we see in these particular crusades. It's just nonsense, this entire thing. Well, it may have been nonsense from the beauty of the hindsight, but at the time it made a lot of sense because actually the crusade could continue based on that. As you probably know, innocent III blasted the crusaders, excommunicating them, then removed the excommunication, but did not remove the excommunication for the crusaders, but not for the Venetians. So the crusaders arrived next to Constantinople being transported on the ships of excommunicated people. Well, you know, and they stole the lion that's in St. Mark's Square, didn't they? They stole more than that. Let me put it this way. There's an account of actually how much they stole from that city. But Zara itself, for historians, is actually an event that highlights the wrong path that the Fourth Crusade took or would take, eventually. But actually on a local basis, did not have much of an impact. The city had changed hands many times and it will do so into the 14th century as well. Venice is very interesting in controlling the entire Adriatic coast and by 1320, so early 14th century, it does so. It's only during the war with the second andriving king of Hungary, Louis I. That long war, which was won by Hungary, that Venice relinquished some of the cities there. And so it's a brief intermezzo, should I say. Immediately after the, as you probably know, at the end of Louis, at the death and the end of Louis I's reign, 1370, at two daughters, but no male heir. So we have a struggle for power inside Hungary, of which, of course, Venice took advantage to reinstall the domination on Dalmatian coast. Really, the only threat to that Venetian, almost constant Venetian claim to the Dalmatian coast comes from the Ottoman Empire. And it did long wars that Venice actually waged against the Turks. But well into early modern period, the cities, each one of them remained under Venetian influence. And because this is a really interesting point in terms of what ends up happening with Dalmatia, etc. Because really 13th century, this is an area that is quite closely under Hungarian control. I mean, to the point where when the Mongols attack Hungary, the fourth flees to Dalmatia. 42, yeah. Correct, yeah. And so, you know, that's how Hungarian we're talking about. And by the time you get the 14th century, by all intents and purposes, I would say that it's really much more Venetian in character at the time. The interior of the country, Croatia, proper, actually is fragmented. In other words, the crisis of power. There are two moments of crisis in Hungary of which local factors in Croatia took advantage. One is at the end of the Arpaedian dynasty, shortly before and after 1300s. Right before the first Anjuven king, Charles the first, Robert was proclaimed, was recognized as a long war with the magnates in Hungary. Local factors in Croatia took advantage of that. And the second one is the death of Louis the first. So towards the end of another hundred years later, towards less than a hundred years, 1370. When again, the local factors took advantage of the absence of a strong central power to impose its rule over this sub kingdom of Croatia. That resulted in the number of noble families exercising control almost autonomously, if not independently, in certain areas. For example, the Babonich family in Slovakia, close to the Hungarian border, the Francopan in the northern Croatia, Liburnia and the Kvarnier area there. The Kasič, probably the most prominent of all families, were for all practical purposes, the rulers of the Omis, which had even a number of castles. The most important one was Mirabela, right at the mouth of Neredva and became almost like not just rulers of the area, there are pirates in the area. In other words, they were independent towards Venice as well. And the number of other families that established rule either next to the coast, like the Kasič or in interior, near Bribir. So what we see in the late Middle Ages, specifically last quarter of the 14th century and the 15th century, as the Ottomans are moving in, the area here is not necessarily controlled or not as much controlled by the Hungarians anymore, as it's controlled by the local no-nobles. Those are the circumstances in which a sense of Croatian separateness, identity is formed on the basis of this independent attitude of the Croatian nobleman. It's responsible for the laws you mentioned earlier on for the sense, which as far as we can tell a myth by now, that at the time of the incorporation of Croatia into the Hungarian kingdom, it had been given a number of oaths being taken, and it had been given a number of privileges from the very beginning. The privileges existed, no doubt, but they are attested only much, much later time. It seems to be a projection back in time to justify the developments in the late Middle Ages. 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Can we talk a little bit, just to sort of wrap up, about the 15th century and this conflict between the Sicilian Angevins and one of my most hated Holy Roman emperors, Charles's worst son, which is saying something. But because there is also, I would argue that part of this, there is a kind of independent Croatianness. We do sort of see the Croatians going back and forth, because there's a sort of the so-called Angevins in Sicily who are saying, well, we're making a play for it. And initially, the Dalmatians side with the Angevins and then say, oh, never mind, maybe Sicis, but there's a lot of going back and forth, right? Yeah, there were so, especially the lords of Brebir that actually accompanied Charles I, the first Angevins to rule over Hungary to the central lands of Hungary. Indeed, I would say that not all Croatians, but some of the Croatian noble families were the earliest allies that Charles I had in Hungary for his rule. Now forward in time, as we said at the time of Sigismund of Luxembourg, I would say that probably the sturdiest supporters that he had in the area were the lords in Slavonia, because he was close to the lands that he himself had. There's something here that needs to be factoring. Again, after the death of Louis I, let's put it this way, after the death of Louis I, there's a very strong hand in this. And as I mentioned to you, had defeated Venice in the area, so the stuff is a very strong, firm rule, Hungarian rule in the area here. And because he became King of Poland as well, as you know, that transformed this polity into a very large personal union, but still in a very large polity. By that, I mean, I'm not saying that developments in Danube influenced those in Split, but that's basically the axis of power that we are talking about here. After that, especially on the Sigismund of Luxembourg, a particular area, as you know, Sigismund was a Holy Roman Emperor as well, a particular area that concerns him more than anything else is that of the Czech lands. We talk about them already wrong. In this particular case, because of the Hussite wars against the Hussites, he proclaims a number of Crusades. So his attention is drawn into that. That's a reason for which Croatia and Croatian noblemen actually developed a very strong sense of identity. That's also the reason for which a number of citizens on the Dalmatian coast fall back onto the Venetian control. So I'm not sure the Angevins did anything here. I would say that probably by virtue of pushing their claims, real claims in the case of Charles, claims that were never fulfilled properly speaking with later rulers of the Angevins in Hungary, they provided a point of entry for this particularism of the Croatian nobility, which really has no parallel in any other part of Hungary. There has been some very interesting studies done by comparing, let's say, developments in Croatia, 1400s to 1450s, let's put it this way, right, to developments in Transylvania, the eastern part of the Hungarian kingdom. Needless to say, this is the era of John Huniadi and, you know, magnets in Transylvania supporting him or not supporting him or whatever. But there is nothing anywhere in Hungary that will actually match the very strong sense of local identity and very powerful claims that we have in Croatia, probably speaking. The Kasič and the Ba Bonici probably being the most prominent among them. Well, I don't think that's surprising when we consider all of this. I mean, by the time we've got to the 15th century, we have hundreds and hundreds of years worth of history where things are just different in Croatia. It's just not the same story that we hear in other parts of Europe. I mean, even in other parts of Slovanic-speaking Europe, even in other parts of Central Europe just above it, it's a really different political system that relies on really different sets of alliances. I just do think it's truly unique in that. Yeah. I think it's because of its position at the intersection. We talked about this earlier and for much earlier times, it's intersection of great powers, certainly not to the same extent, both in terms of numbers and in terms of historical phenomenon. But the area of the Romanian principalities, Valacia and Moldova, is also the intersection of great powers. We're talking about the phenomenon of the late Middle Ages and early modern period well into the 18th century. And in a way, it's very interesting how the two work the same way. A lot of people have asked why did the Ottomans stop the push in Bosnia? Of course, they defeated the Croatian army of Libava and killed almost the entire aristocracy. That was a myth of the battle as being significant for the later Croatian nationalism. But there was no real attempt by the Ottomans to conquer this area. At least for a decade, maybe three on both sides of the year, 1500s, you could make the case they could have done so. After all, they brought Hungary down to its knees, conquered the country, destroyed the kingdom and transformed two thirds of the country into a Pasha-lik. Why didn't they do it for Croatia? The easiest way to respond is because before they could figure out what to do, the Havzbouz got into. But I think there's a power here. That's why I mentioned Moldavia and Malaysia. The cost of keeping Croatia under control, I'm talking about the Ottomans, would have been enormous. In other words, even from Istanbul, from Constantinople, people realized that that corner there at the intersection of interests of great powers would be very difficult and costly because of that to defend. It's better to keep it like a grey zone. Every now and then you go and have an occupation longer, a year or two or something like that, but you're never going to implement the Pasha-lik with government. It's going to cost a fortune. The advantages are not obvious on the country. The Almeysha property, speaking, was a bastion in a two-a-sense of the word, defended by the mountains on one side and by that formidable sea power of Venice on the other. In Croatia, probably speaking, you're not going to fight only one power, the Havzbouz. From 1500 onwards, especially after the demise of Hungary, the two powers, the Havzbouz and the Ottomans, are at each other's throat well into the 18th century. You'd know subway and whatnot. But in the area we're talking about here, the Ottomans have a second enemy, Venice. This is a different kind of warfare. You're not waging on land. You need a fleet, which is another normal cost. The Ottoman Empire around 1500, definitely on the Suleyman, the Magnificent, has this extraordinary power. The question I ask you, why didn't they push it? It's quite an interesting one from a historical point of view. The explanation, as I said, I think, is in the geopolitical configuration in the area from the early Middle Ages well into the early modern period. Oh, Florian, I think we have to stop here, which is so difficult to do. But also, I think that we've done a fairly all right job of covering almost a thousand years of history in an hour. It's some of the more interesting history I think that we can find in the Middle Ages. Is there anything else that we've missed that you'd really like to cover before we go? I don't think so. I want to say that we talk a lot about politics, but there is a very interesting cultural history here. Maybe your audience would like to know that one of these scripts, manuscript scripts, developed in the monastery of Monte Cassino in Italy, is best represented by manuscripts from Croatia. I'm talking about Benaventun script in existence in the 11th and 12th century with some absolutely gorgeous abominations. Some of the most wonderful manuscripts ever written in the Latin in the western part of the church in the high Middle Ages. It's not just a matter, and needless to say, there's a fascinating chapter of the history of architecture, specifically for the Romanesque art here with such phenomenal churches as the one of St. Friso Gonis in Zadar, we're talking about the city, and the Cathedral in Spi... I just want to make a plug for the concept of Zadar, which is a little unsung. I think that people should... If you're interested in medieval history, Zadar is really one to go check out that people just don't for some reason. Well, Florin, thank you so much. It's been such an incredible delight to speak to you today. Thank you. Thanks to Professor Kerta and to you for listening to Gone Medieval from History Hit. Remember, you can enjoy unlimited access to award-winning original TV documentaries, including my recent documentary on the Trials of Joan of Arc, and I had free podcasts by signing up at HistoryHit.com forward slash subscription. 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