What will Artemis mission find on the far side of the Moon?

BBC Sounds Music Radio podcasts. Hello and welcome to News Hour from the BBC World Service coming to you live from London. I'm James Kamara Sami and coming up later. Music Celebrated in song but rumoured to have died it turns out the 193 year old tortoise called Jonathan is alive and well. We'll be hearing from the governor of St Helena, the British overseas territory in the South Atlantic where he lives. First though, the Earth's orbit is a long way to go for a test flight, but that's effectively what the crew of NASA's Artemis 2 mission are doing on the first day of their historic mission to the moon, the first in more than half a century. The three Americans and one Canadian are checking whether their Orion capsule can proceed to the next unprecedented stage of the journey. One that will take them to the dark side of the moon, further than any astronaut has traveled before. We'll get an update on their progress in a few moments, but the hours leading up to Wednesday's launch weren't without a few nail biting moments, a few technical glitches here and there, but those were ironed out and then came the all clear from the control room. This is Victor. We are going for our families. This is Christina. We are going for our teammates. This is Jeremy. We are going for all humanity. I turn to your Artemis 2 crew is go for launch full send. I copy that. Read Victor, Christina and Jeremy. On this historic mission, you take with you the heart of this Artemis team, the daring spirit of the American people and our partners across the globe, and the hopes and dreams of a new generation. Good luck. Godspeed Artemis 2. Let's go. The clock ticked down and at 6.35 p.m. Eastern time, this. And here we go. 10, 9, 8, 7, RS 25 engines, 4, 3, 2, 1, booster ignition, and lift off. The crew of Artemis 2 now bound for the moon. Humanity's next great voyage begins. It is hard not to have your breath taken away when you watch a launch from the Kennedy Space Center, especially one that is making history like this one, as the BBC science editor Rebecca Morel found out. Seven. Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. Oh. Wow. Oh my goodness. That is spectacular. It's not just what you see and you hear as the rocket lifts off. You can actually feel the force of it through your body. This is the most powerful rocket that NASA has ever built. Well, it wasn't just our science editor who was wowed by the launch. These space tourists in Florida spoke to the BBC about what they had seen. I've been looking forward to this for like 10, 15 years. It's a historical day for America. It is just really incredible to see, just to see the diversity just going up into space and even having someone from Canada. This is like a bucket list thing. I've always wanted to be here. And so to finally be here in Florida and to see that actually go out and not scrub, it's incredible. I drove eight hours from Carolina to be here with all of you. This event can bring this beautiful country together. Whether or not the launch brought the country together, the next stage of the mission saw the Orion spacecraft where the crew are housed to come apart from the rocket's upper stage, which it did successfully. Stand by for separation. We have good separation. Good motion. We are at PGO. Confirmation, separation from the interim cryogenic propulsion stage. Go for 180 pitch confirmed. Separation confirmed Houston. Houston copies. Well, let's get up to date with where things are. Esme Stalard is a science reporter for the BBC who's with me live in the studio. So Esme, what are the astronauts currently up to? They've just gone to sleep actually for a very strict amount of time. They're only allowed four and a half hours. I think that kind of sums up the whole mission, how much it has to tightly run to the second. So after what you just heard there were some maneuvers it was doing, effectively it was flipping around in space because that's because in the future, as part of this Artemis mission program, they would like the spacecraft to dock on other spacecraft. And so they were practicing maneuvering it in space. So they did that. They had a little sleep. They then woke up and then they've been doing a series of burns. So what that means is they're changing where the spacecraft is in orbit. That's really important because it has to be in exactly the right position before they then shoot off to the other side of the moon, which we're expecting to happen in about 12 hours time. They also were testing the deep space network. So as they head over to the moon, the normal satellites that they use will stop working. So they have to switch on to a different network. So they were testing that all out as well. So a lot still happening as we go on this 10 day mission to the other side of the moon. You mentioned they're having a bit of a sleep. What are conditions like on board for them? We have to be quite tightly controlled temperature, humidity and pressure. But we're heard it's a little bit cold on board at the moment. Much like if you're on a plane going somewhere, they've had to get their long sleeves out of their suitcases, warm up a little bit as well. They'll also, as well as sleeping at some point, they'll do a bit of exercise. It seems like they wouldn't have much time for that. But actually it's very important because otherwise they can get muscle wastage. So that's also very tightly controlled. But all of that is happening in a very small space, not much bigger than a caravan, about five meters wide and three meters high. But they are going a very, very long way, aren't they? I mean, what makes this so special is that it is the first time humans will have seen the far side of the moon in person. Although we have had images from there, haven't we? China managed to get the first ever soft moon landing on that far side. So I guess that speaks to the competitive spirit amongst the nations, those two nations in particular, when it comes to the moon. It absolutely does. I mean, both nations and other countries that are trying to get back on the moon have said they want to cooperate internationally. China has shared some of the rock samples it collected from that landing. But there's no doubt this is a competition. When Trump backed this Artemis mission program back in his first term in 2017, he said he wanted to launch American astronauts to plant the stars and stripes on the planet Mars. Now, according to the Outer Space Treaty, which was signed many decades ago, you can't claim land. But nonetheless, once you stick the flag, there's a little bit hard to come along and pull it off. So I think that this space race is definitely ramping up. China hopes to get back to the moon by 2030 as well. So this is definitely something that the competition we're seeing on Earth is translating as well into space. Esme, thanks very much. Our science reporter Esme Stalard there. Well, one man who knows what being in space feels like is retired British astronaut Tim Peake from 2015 to 2016. He spent 186 days aboard the International Space Station. He even completed an almost five hour long spacewalk there. He is the co-presenter of the BBC podcast 13 Minutes Presents Artemis II. So first of all, what did he think of the launch? What a spectacular launch it was last night. That was phenomenal to see SLS lift off the launch pad. We had a, you know, a flawless launch, incredible to see and to hear the commander's comments on the way up, you know, when that launch abort system was jettisoned and they got the first view outside the Orion capsule. And then just a few moments later saw the moon rising over the Earth. And to think that you're riding that huge rocket into space, actually pointing at the destination, must have been incredible for the crew. They went straight into what we call a low Earth orbit that's similar to the orbit that the International Space Station's in. Just a few hundred kilometers away from Earth. And then they had to do this thing called an apogee raise burn. And that burn sends it on a highly elliptical orbit a long way from Earth. So they're currently almost at the furthest part of that orbit. And they're about 44,000 miles away and that's about 70,000 kilometers. And they're going to start falling back towards Earth. But if they were to look out their windows right now, Earth would be about the same size of a basketball if you held it at arm's length. So they're actually a really long way from Earth right now. And then they kind of come back in. And during this time, they've detached from the interim cryogenic propulsion stage. That was part of the rocket that took them up into space. And they used it to try and maneuver around it to kind of practice actually flying the spacecraft. That would have been Victor Glover with the hands on the controls. If all is well and they then head off to the moon, just talk us through the mission and the key points that we should be looking out for. Yeah, so the next really big moment will be for us in the UK around midnight tonight, where they'll do a trans-lunar injection burn. Now, this is the burn. Once they've fallen back towards Earth, that is going to start to really accelerate that spacecraft and send them on a trajectory that is going to allow them to actually escape Earth's gravity. That's about a three to four day mission that will take them out towards the moon. And then they'll get pulled in towards the moon's gravity and slingshot around the moon. So a really spectacular event is going to be in about four days time, where they pass behind the moon and they're going to get to see parts of the moon that no human eyes have ever set on before. They'll take amazing photographs of that. So we look forward to seeing those images until they do that trans-lunar injection tonight. They're not going to the moon. And for people trying to get a handle on this particular mission and where it fits into the longer term goals, what would you say? What should we be looking out for? What are the key objectives? They're testing out the mundane stuff, like does the lube work? Does the water dispenser work? Can we warm our food up? And this is part of the entire Artemis program. We're just at the very beginning of this Artemis program. We've had the uncrewed launch, now the first crewed launch. Artemis 3 will be testing out the landing system, the lunar landing system in lower orbit ahead of Artemis 4, which could be as soon as 2028, which has put humans back on the surface of the moon again, to actually build a lunar research facility at the south pole of the moon. So in 10, 15 years, we might see astronauts going off to that lunar research base to live there for maybe six months a year at a time, just like we see on the International Space Station. Right now. What was it like for you witnessing it? Take you back. I felt really nervous. It surprised me how nervous I felt. I think it's far more comfortable sitting on the rocket than watching the rocket. I really do. Four of my good friends on board. I'd spoken to Jeremy just hours before he suited up. Jeremy Hansen, the Canadian astronaut on board. But it was just amazing to watch and to see everything happen exactly according to plan on schedule, huge relief when those main engines cut out. What is there on the moon that we might hope to discover that could have a real benefit for humanity? Well, a number of things. I mean, when you think of the moon, think of Earth, because in the early solar system, Earth and moon were the same body. And then there was a big collision. And that threw a chunk of the Earth out into orbit, collated together and became the moon. So all of the rare earth minerals that we have, a lot of the resources that we're running short of here on Earth, the moon will have those. And we can learn a lot about the human body. How do we live and how do we work on another celestial body as a stepping stone on, say, to Mars and the future space exploration? So everything we do out in space is actually focused back on the benefit of people back on Earth. Former British astronaut Tim P. Gander, before the end of the program, will be hearing from another former astronaut. He is one of only four people alive who can say that they have walked on the surface of the moon. Charlie Duke, do stay tuned for that. You are listening to the BBC World Service. And this is News Hour, coming to you live from London with James Kimarasami. Coming up later on in the program, diving for skeletons in Copenhagen harbour, we speak to a Danish marine archaeologist who's looking for bones in the wreck of an old warship. We were hoping for more human remains because you can do so many tests. You get to know so much more about the people that were on board if you can have the remains to on scientific tests on. We have a lot of the other stuff, a lot of ceramics, a lot of glass bottles. So never mind that. Let's see if we can find some more human remains. Mind of our headlines at this hour, the French president Emmanuel Macron has said that using military action to break Iran's blockade of the Strait of Hormuz is unrealistic and that bombing alone won't solve nuclear issue. We'll have more on that next. And the four astronauts on the Artemis II mission are gearing up for the next stage of their voyage around the moon. You're listening to the BBC World Service. This is News Hour, coming to you live from London with James Kimarasami. Let's turn to Iran now because the coalition of countries convened by the British government that's been meeting virtually today may agree that the war in Iran is not their war, but they know the impact it is having on the global economy is their problem. That impact directly linked to Iran's effective closure of the Strait of Hormuz through which around a fifth of the world's oil is usually transported. Well, the United States is not taking part in the meeting, but President Trump, who has said he might end the war without the Strait reopening, seems keen to outsource the Strait of Hormuz issue to allies whose lack of military support for the U.S. operation has clearly angered him. He spoke about that. He spoke about the war in an address to the nation on Wednesday night. We'll have more on that later. But in response, President Macron of France has said a military operation to open up the Strait of Hormuz was, in his words, unrealistic. It is unrealistic because it would take an inordinate amount of time and would expose anyone crossing the Strait to coastal threats from the Iranian revolutionary guards who possess significant resources as well as ballistic missiles and a host of other risks. This can only be done in concert with Iran. So first and foremost, there must be a ceasefire and a resumption of negotiations. Our Chief International correspondent, Lee's Deset, is with me here in the studio. Lee's all these countries apart from the United States and Israel, I guess, are talking about diplomacy, aren't they? They're talking about the need to find a negotiated way out of this. Yes, and as they do it, you can, we've just heard this political ping-pong across the Atlantic. President Trump in his speech last night said, well, it's up to you countries, and it's easy to open up the Strait of Hormuz, which it's not. And hence that rebuke from President Macron of France. And you really tell how they're changing their language to President Trump. He has changed what was a war of choice for the United States into a war of necessity for so many countries, including these 35 or so countries, over 40 now they're saying, who are meeting virtually foreign ministers to discuss how to open the Strait of Hormuz. But the view isn't as clear in what Sir Kirsten Starmer said yesterday, that they would look at it militarily. And there is now a report that after this meeting, the military planners will look at it, but only once there is a ceasefire. They don't want to get dragged into a war which will be very costly and very risky. But how do you find ways to open it up? Well, the Strait is open for those countries who are negotiating with Iran. So Indian flag tankers, Pakistani flag tankers, they are getting through smaller numbers. I think the Philippines have announced that. The Philippines, yes. So people are going to Iran and it underlines that only politically can you find a way out. And for the countries who are not siding with Iran in this war, or have been providing basis, etc., they can only wait until the war is over. Hence the frustration with President Trump. He didn't make it clear last night when it will end. And just briefly, what sort of message then do you think is being sent by this meeting? Well, it's a message to Iran. As Yvette Cooper, the foreign secretary said, that it's reckless for you to weaponize the Strait of Hormuz. It has to be open. And it's a message to President Trump. We're not going to join your war, but we are going to focus on our national interests and do what we can to open up this Strait, which is causing economic shocks the world over. Please, thanks very much. Our Chief International Correspondent, Lee's descent, and we'll have more on the words that President Trump used when he spoke to the nation a bit later on in the program. Now, if you were listening to the BBC World Service yesterday, you may have heard the following report. And I quote, A Seychelles giant tortoise called Jonathan, who is believed to be one of the world's oldest living land animals, has died at the estimated age of 193. His death was announced by a vet who had cared for him on the southern Atlantic Island of St Helena. Well, it turns out that while Jonathan's age wasn't exaggerated, rumors of his death were the social media account purporting to belong to the vet called Joe Hollins, on which the BBC and multiple media outlets based their reports, was a hoax. So what's going on? A cruel April fool or something else? Nigel Phillips is the governor of St Helena. Jonathan is alive and well. I was first contacted about the news of the hoax last night and actually went out into the paddock in the pitch black to make sure, but he is full of his usual whim and vigor. In some ways, he's actually getting more healthy. We know that giant seychelles tortoises are believed to be fully grown when they're 50 years of age. When he arrived, his shell was measured and he has not got any larger. So it's reasonable to assume he was fully grown. If you take his date of arrival, plus the 50 years, he is approximately 193, but he could be more. How do you think of him? Is he a pet? Is he an institution? How would you describe him? Definitely not a pet. Institution is possibly a good word. The association between Jonathan and the island is so long and deep. Days gone by, people would have wedding photographs with him. He was very much part of the fabric of the island. As the years have gone, we've sought to make sure he and the three other tortoises that we have are in a stable environment and so far as keeping them in the paddock. We allow visitation, but it's done in a controlled way, so the animals aren't in any way distressed. And we have a veterinary team who look after them. But if I were to extrapolate from this, the contact I was getting last night in response to the hoax, it tells me very much that not only is he an animal of great importance to us, he seems to have resonated with people across the world. So hoax, clearly the BBC amongst others fell for. Did you have any idea yet what's behind it? Was it any coincidence this happened on April 1st? Our initial understanding is that this was something that originated in South America and that somebody was attempting to invite people to give currency to a crypto donation using falsely the name of the form of vet who's written a book on Jonathan Joe Hollands. So I fear it was slightly more than just an April Fool's. It feels a little more contrived than that. No one is immortal. I mean, I guess Jonathan's had a very, very good run, hasn't he? And you're saying he's getting healthier, if anything. But I mean, I guess this has made people contemplate the possibility of him no longer being there. You will understand that as the governor, I can merely say, I certainly hope that it doesn't happen during my tenure. Talking to the vets here, it's very difficult to determine what might actually result in his demise. If he's in a safe environment, he's well-fair, he gets the right nutrients. You know, he seems to have longevity built in. He does suffer physical ailments. He has difficulty seeing. He has a cataract in one eye and a number of other faculties are sort of diminishing. But his appetite has not changed at all. And I'm trying to be delicate about this, his appetite for all sorts of things. Is that right? I mean, he's someone who might have an eye on his succession, shall we say? Approximately six days a week, he sort of mows the lawn, eats grass, as all four of the toasters in the paddock do. But in order to make sure he gets his essential minerals, one day a week, usually a Sunday, he gets some fruit and veg and salad. He has a sweet tooth. He particularly likes soft, you know, soft sweet fruits, guavas, things like that. And he's quite partial to carrots. He sort of recognizes the sound of certain people. My wife is one of those who feeds him. And, you know, he will move toward you at some pace in order to make sure he gets his food. One of the four tortoises is a female. Known as Emma, which is the same name as my wife, who would have thought it. But anyway, and yes, there is activity. And Emma does have eggs. Sadly, none of them have proven to be viable. We have tried to incubate a few with the vet, but it's just not worked. All I will say without being in any way gratuitous about this, you are in no doubt when certain things are happening. The noise is quite significant. The governor of St. Helena at Nigel Phillips on the grounds of whose mansion Jonathan the tortoise is still very much living. You're listening to the BBC World Service. And this is NewsHour, coming to you live from London with James Kimarasami. Welcome back to NewsHour. Now from shows featuring a hologram of Elvis to Judy Garland narrating audiobooks, a growing industry is emerging around the legacies of celebrities after their deaths. But there is also a fierce debate over the ethics of digitally reviving stars, as the BBC's Sean Allsott reports. I'm in a secret location where they're preparing a show for one of the biggest stars the world has ever seen. It's a dark warehouse. There are many technicians around working away. And then a giant screen lights up. It's Elvis Presley in a way you have never experienced him in a brand new show. But how is this possible? Elvis isn't in the building. In fact, he's dead. But that's not stopping him and others still bringing in millions after death. Firstly, what exactly are estates? In short, an estate refers to the people, usually family members, who inherit control over a celebrity's work after they pass away. They manage the legal rights and finances tied to the artist's legacy. Every October, Forbes magazine publishes a list of the highest earning dead celebrities. In 2024, the top five earned over a billion dollars, with Michael Jackson topping the list, followed by Freddie Mercury, Dr. Seuss, and in fourth place, Elvis. My name's Mark Rossler. I'm the chairman, CEO and founder of CMG Worldwide. We're in our 45th year. My first client was the Elvis Presley estate in 1981. Estates usually work with managing companies, people like Mark Rossler. It's not uncommon for a famous personality for, let's call them the handlers, so to speak, to approach us within a month or two after someone passes away. The speed of new technology means another opportunity has arisen. And estates are now asking, should we resurrect these dead celebrities? But I wanted to see myself, something new being made with a star of old. I'm back at the Elvis show rehearsals in London, in the UK, with its director, Jack Peary. It's called Elvis Evolution, and it's an immersive experience being created to tell the story of Elvis. In some sequences, you are physically walking through an environment, in others, you're seated, and in this sequence, you'll be seated. So this will happen in 360 around you as you're seated and you experience sun records and 1950s mempris. It's a murky world. On one hand, we're preserving the legacies of those we love in exciting new ways. On the other, we might be crossing a line into something that's exploitive. But as technology continues to evolve, we'll face more decisions over what we choose to buy, from those in the past. And that was Sean Allsop reporting, and you can hear more in Business Daily today, just search for the program, wherever you get your BBC podcasts. You're listening to the BBC World Service. This is News Hour, coming to you live from London with James Kamarasami. Now, if the last American president to go to war in the Middle East, George W. Bush, referred to himself as the decider, well, the current one, while he also may take the decisions, he's perhaps very much more the communicator in his social media posts and frequent phone calls with journalists in recent weeks. President Trump has given a variety of rationales and timelines for his decision to commit U.S. firepower and manpower alongside Israel to a military campaign in Iran, which is now in its second month. But Wednesday night was the first time since the beginning of the war that he had carved out a slot on Primetime TV to address the nation about it. And as such, it was a highly anticipated speech. So would it be a moment for signaling the campaign was winding down or his intention to ramp it up? Well, this was the message that President Trump delivered. I've made clear from the beginning of Operation Epic Fury that we will continue until our objectives are fully achieved. Thanks to the progress we've made, I can say tonight that we are on track to complete all of America's military objectives shortly, very shortly. We're going to hit them extremely hard over the next two to three weeks. We're going to bring them back to the Stone Ages where they belong. Well, if the speech was meant to calm the markets, it doesn't seem to have done the job, but the Dow opening sharply down today. So what was the President trying to achieve? What have he learned about his intentions? Joining us now, Matthew Kranig, Vice President of the Atlantic Council's Scrocoff Center for Strategy and Security, Professor at Georgetown University. Welcome to News Hour, Matthew. Thank you very much for having me. What do you think was the intention of this speech? There wasn't much news in it, was there? You're right, there wasn't much news. This was essentially repeating many things the President and the administration have said over the past few weeks in terms of the threat that Iran posed to the United States, the progress of the military campaign. And from the beginning, the President said this war would take four to six weeks. And so I think last night he again repeated that this would be winding down in the coming weeks. And so in terms of the purpose, I think there is value to having the President use the fully pulpit to directly communicate to the American people. You know, you and I and some of your listeners may have been listening to every press conference and statement over the past few weeks, but a lot of the American public have not. They're more likely to tune into a prime time address. So I think that was the purpose to try to speak directly to the American people. Because they like world leaders, and we've heard not just from President Macron, but others, I mean, that's sounding confused. I mean, you said he set out a time frame and it's stretching, isn't it? I mean, another two to three weeks, that takes us into sort of two month territory, doesn't it? Yes, I guess I see more consistency in the administration's messaging than they're getting credit for. On the very first speech, the Saturday morning after the operation started, the President said the goal is to degrade Iran's military capabilities, the drones, the missiles, etc. That was repeated last night. Again, when the campaign started, he said four to six weeks. Now we're four weeks in. He's saying another two to three weeks, I think he said last night. So so maybe a week or two beyond the initial estimate. But still, I think the President's determined to avoid a long drawn out military quagmire. So it is hard for me to see this going on much beyond that. But what then of the extra troops that have been sent to the region, you don't think that there are plans for some kind of limited ground invasion? Well, you're right that ground forces have been sent to the region and big questions about what they may be. Therefore, some have suggested they could be there to seize Karg Island, this important island through which much of Iran's oil exports transits. Others have suggested that maybe this is to seize Iran's enriched uranium. Although the President did cast out on that interpretation last night by saying that if Iran tries to rebuild enrichment facilities and enrich these uranium, the United States would spot that with satellites and we could bomb again. So I think this is maybe more about coercion. I'd be surprised if President Trump decides to deploy ground forces in the war. Well, I mean, a different sort of question, but he's very much saying to America's allies, it's your business to reopen the Strait of Ormuz. He said it's going to happen naturally. I mean, that's unrealistic, isn't it? I mean, Iran is using it as a leverage point, isn't it? Well, they are using it as a leverage point, but reopening it naturally. I mean, I think, imagine that the war stops in three weeks. The United States and Israel aren't shooting anymore, the calm starting to return to the region. Is it really in Iran's interest to fire drones and missiles at every commercial tanker that comes through the Strait? Forever, I think it's not. The new leadership would have an incentive to focus on trying to stabilize the country and waging a one-sided war against the global economy. Forever seems against that interest. So I do think that there's a pathway to de-escalating once the US and Israel stop shooting. Briefly, Matthew, no mention of NATO. I mean, he's been very critical in recent interviews. I mean, it's been a running thing. Calling it a paper tiger, threatening possibly to withdraw, was that surprising to you? It was brief, pre-briefed. He would criticize NATO allies. It was surprising to many. It wasn't surprising to me because the pattern I've seen over the past few years is that President Trump is often frustrated with NATO. But at the end of the day, he sees the value in the alliance, including at the NATO summit last year. He was almost sentimental saying NATO is not a rip-off. These are people who just love their country. So he's frustrated now, but I suspect the alliance will remain strong. Matthew Cranig, Vice President of the Atlantic Council, Scowcroft Center for Strategy and Security. Thanks very much. As the war continues in the Middle East, the impact is having on oil prices is affecting people across the globe. And with the help of the BBC's Language Services here on News Out, we've been hearing how people in different countries are coping with rising fuel costs today. It's Brazil. My name is Marcelo. I am 41 years old and I am an independent truck driver at the Port of Santos, in Brazil. I've been a truck driver for 20 years. When diesel goes up, the cost of the truck goes up too. It becomes impossible to work because freight rates don't keep up, you know? Let me give you an example. I just closed a freight job for 5,000 reais as my costs are already high. When I get halfway through the trip, fuel goes up and that ruins my whole calculation. So I'm doing a job where I'm not going to have anything left because I agreed on a price and when I'm halfway through, the cost has already changed. So in the end, you don't make anything. I'm working for free, you know? You can't pay your bills, truck insurance, financing. Anyone with high debts can't pay them. It affects everything in a truck driver's life. What I think is that this problem comes from way back. From past governments because there wasn't much investment in Petroblas, you know? Brazil has nothing to do with this war. We are self-sufficient in oil, but we are not self-sufficient in refining. So we are depending on imports because of the incompetence of all the politicians that came before, understand? That's my opinion. This Trump government, I think it's attacking other countries like Venezuela, which is rich in oil. Now Iran, rich in oil. I think it's, I don't know, a war for ego, a war of guys with power, you know? And that was about Marcello, a truck driver from Brazil. After the impact of a contemporary war to the vestiges of one that took place more than two centuries ago, because 225 years after it was sunk by a British warship during the Battle of Copenhagen, the wreck of the Danish warship, the Danabro, has been discovered on the seabed of Copenhagen Harbour. Divers are salvaging what they can before the area where the wreckage was found becomes a construction site for a new housing district. I've been speaking to one of those divers, the marine archaeologist Marie Johnson. The Danabro was part of the line of ships that were supposed to defend Copenhagen back in 1809 when the British were coming. It was known that it was sunk pretty much in the place where it is in all the maps and historical documents that were written right around the time when it went down. But then in the 70s, there were sports divers who found wreck parts in that area, like wreck parts that were still sticking out of the bottom, and they were fairly sure that it was the Danabro. But now you are completely sure? Now we are completely sure, yes. The sports divers then didn't do any excavations, but now we have excavated the whole ship and it is clear that it is one of the warships from 1801. All the measurements fit to the measurements that are in the historical sources, so we're certain. And it was excavated because this is the area which is going to become a new housing area. So I guess now there is what a bit of a race against time is there for people like you? Yes, there is. We're actually supposed to be finished next week, but we have got an extension for four weeks because it is a really, really big wreck. So let's turn to your work. You are a marine archaeologist and that involves being able to dive. Tell us about your work. Yes, exactly. I've done a fair amount of dives on this wreck. There was a lot of loose sediment around. So as soon as you got out of the dive basket and started moving around, you were down to zero visibility and you had to feel your way around the ship and you were not sure of what your hands were on. But now we've cleared so much of that sediment that the last two weeks it's been really nice because you can see that you're actually working on top of a wreck. The whole wreck is intact underneath the pile of ballast stones and you can see that now, which is really, really nice because it's a complete different experience to go down there and actually see what you're doing instead of only feeling your way with your fingers. I can imagine. And what have you been able to find? What stands out to you? What stands out to me is the number of shoes that we've recovered, plus pieces of basketry. I did not expect that to have survived for so long. And what about the people who were wearing the shoes? We can say pretty much from the shoes, they were of very different heights. The smallest shoes are about a size Scandinavian, size 38 to a Scandinavian, 46. So but smallish feet. But what about what about remains of the people themselves beyond what they were wearing? Have you found anything yet? Yeah, we have found one piece of human remains, half a jaw with, I think, four teeth still in it. We were hoping for more human remains because you can do so many tests and see. You get to know so much more about the people that were on board if you can have the remains to run scientific tests on. Is that where a lot of the focus is then at the moment of the dives to try and find skeletons? Yes, one of the focuses is to see if we can locate more human remains. We have a lot of the other stuff, a lot of ceramics, a lot of glass bottles. So never mind that. Let's see if we can find some more human remains. What do you hope to find out then? Or what have you already found out that you didn't know apart from shoe sizes? Well, we found out that they had baskets on board. That was kind of surprising. But of course, they must have carried their stuff around in something. How is all this being viewed in the country? There is a fair bit of interest. I mean, it's very well known from the historical sources and described in detail how the ship was built and how it was rigged and all the armaments and how much gunpowder and firewood there was on board. But there is no real archaeological material from this kind of environment before. So we can learn a lot more about the people involved instead of the ships and the armaments. And that was the Danish Marine Archaeologist Marie Johnson. You're listening to the BBC World Service. This is NewsHour, coming to you live from London. You're listening to the BBC World Service. This is NewsHour, coming to you live from London with James Kamarasami. Let's return now to our main story, the NASA Moon mission. Now, while the Artemis crew will circle the moon rather than land on it, I've been speaking to one of the four people still alive who have walked on the moon. 90-year-old Charlie Duke was part of the last but one moon mission before this one. Apollo 16. On April 21st, 1972, he became the youngest man to walk on the moon. It's a title he still holds. He was actually in mission control during the very first moon landing in 1969. Three years before he piloted a lunar module, he was communicating with Neil Armstrong and crew as they touched down on the lunar surface. But when I spoke to Charlie shortly before the Orion spacecraft lifted off, I asked him if he could recall what he was feeling at that point. Lift-off, you got your attention. You had seven and a half million pounds pushing six and a half million and the rocket was shaking like crazy from side to side. And I didn't remember anybody telling me I was supposed to shake that hard, so I got a little nervous. But later on, I found out my heartbeat was way up, like 140 and John Young, the commander on the left side, his was 70. So he was the cool one and I was excited but ready to do my job if we had an emergency. And but things went really smoothly as we lifted off right on the second. And then ultimately your job was to be part of, you know, the crew that was landing on the moon itself. What was that experience like? We were delayed seven hours for the landing because of a problem in the other spacecraft. And if it hadn't have been for mission control, solving the problem and giving a workaround to the other spacecraft, we would not have landed. So the seven hour delay gave us time to ponder and think about, get it fixed guys, we don't want to come home. We're ready to land. Sure enough, they gave us a go for landing. And so six hours later, we started down. And from then on, on the space, on our spacecraft, we didn't have any problem at all. It was the descent and landing pitch over and seeing the surface of the moon. We were right on target. John had to redesignate a couple of times because of a crater problems. But he picked out a fantastic place to land. We were dead level. And we landed with plenty of fuel. And so we just exploded with enthusiasm when we land. Landed and I shouted all around is finally here, Houston. Fantastic. Because you'd been on the other side, of course, hadn't you for Apollo 11? Right. And the tension and mission control for Apollo 11, I think was higher than I was. I was more tense in Apollo 11 than I was on Apollo 16. When you're doing it, you have the whole picture, whereas in mission control, you're just looking at your little TV screen and you just got half the picture. And so you don't sense the integrity and the, it's you incorporate everything in the flight as you're doing it. So you are on the moon, you step on the moon. What is that experience like? There aren't many people I can ask that to and you're one of the few. Well, it was a tremendous feeling of satisfaction. I felt right at home. We recognized the landing area from when we stepped out. You could see the main objective to the south was Stone Mountain on the other side on the north side was the smoky mountains we called them. We are really going up a hill, I'll tell you. What a view isn't it John? It's absolutely unreal. We rarely come up here, Tony, it's just spectacular. I have never seen it. All I can say is spectacular and I know y'all are sick of that word. And so we knew where we were and we just, we recognized the craters as the main craters as we came in. And the surprise was there were a lot more craters than we expected because of our photographs only had 40 feet resolution. So we didn't see the smaller craters till we got close. When you were walking on the moon, you had a few spills, I think, didn't you? You went upright the whole time. Well, if you know, you trip over your feet and you walk in enough space suit up on the moon once it's gravity was a challenge. The backpack weighed as much as I did. So you had to bend over and keep your center of gravity above your feet. And if you tripped a little bit, they ended up falling down. If you fell down on your front, you could do a series of push ups and push yourself up and you could get back up. But if you're on your back, generally your buddy had to come over and help you most significant was right before we closed out and I was doing the moon high jump record. And I jumped and I straightened up and fell over backwards. That was scary. Fear is not a bad emotion if you don't panic. And man, I'm in trouble. So I roll right. I said, what do something? I roll right and broke my fall and bounce on my back and my heart was pounding, but I'm still alive. John came and helped me up and looked down and said, that wasn't very smart, Charlie. I said, yeah, help me up. He was upset. So you're a bit like a turtle or a beetle really on you in that circumstance. Like a turtle. Yeah, like a turtle. Exactly. If you close your eyes, can you still see it as you saw it then? Yeah, I can. Actually, from where we landed on the moon, the earth was directly overhead. So we didn't see it very much unless we looked through the telescope on the car. But in orbit, you'd come back around from the backside and there you'd see that earth rise just suspended in the blackness of space. And it was a tremendous experience. Later on, as I became a believer and I started reading the Bible, it says God sits enthroned above the circle of the earth. Well, I didn't see God enthroned, but I saw the circle of the earth. And the scriptures also say when God made the earth, he suspended it upon nothing. And that's exactly what it looks like just suspended out there in the blackness of space. And it was a tremendous moving moment. And what are you feeling about the fact that we, man, is going back to the moon? I mean, they're not clearly not going to do what you did and actually step on it. But obviously, they are paving the way for that to happen in the future. I mean, it's taken more than half a century. What are your thoughts about that? Apollo was the last, was so successful, the last three missions were canceled. And they decided to put the money on space station and space shuttle over the last 50 years. And so it's been a while. And I'm delighted to see us going back there to explore and eventually to land on the South Pole, which was going to be very exciting and challenging mission. And that was Charlie Duke, a member of the Apollo 16 mission that one of the few men to have ever walked on the moon. And that brings us to an end of this edition of News Hour from me, James Kamarassami and the rest of the team here in London. Thanks very much for listening.