CRUISE SHIP ANNA KEPNER ASSAULTED, STRANGLED, STEP-BRO UNMASKED

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Crime stories with Nancy Grace. The cruise ship girl, teen Anna Kettner, scrubbed in sunshine tonight. We learn was sex assaulted before she was mechanically strangled dead on the cruise ship. And tonight, for the first time, that step-brother of hers unmasked. We see his face for the first time. Now, he is indicted. I mean, it's he grace. This is Crime Stories. I wanna thank you for being with us. A beautiful young teen cheerleader found dead on a cruise ship. Her body there for hours and hours before anyone even notices she's missing. Where were the parents for Pete's sake? It happened all right. And it is a torpedo to the defense. All this time, family, friends, the media, legal eagles like you waiting for an answer in the brutal murder of Anna Kettner. Her body found nude, wrapped up in blankets and stuffed under a twin bed on the cruise ship. Then stuffed on top of that life jacket, someone desperately trying to conceal her body until a maid comes the following morning to clean the room and makes the discovery, the horrific discovery of a teen girl dead stuffed under a bed. Tonight, finally, will there be justice? Sidney Silvani, Crime Stories investigative reporter. What happened? Is it true? According to federal documents and the feds don't play, let me tell you, we kept wondering why they were waiting and waiting and waiting. As the former fed, I can tell you this, we wouldn't take one toe to the courtroom, even close to it unless we had rooms full of boxes of documents. So now there's an indictment. Is it true, Sidney Silvani, that the documents reveal she was sex assaulted before she was strangled? That's correct. Timothy Hudson is accused of sexually assaulting and then killing his step sister, Anna Kepner. And we know that these charges actually came down, but the record was sealed until Friday. The problem I have with all of this is reported that all these family members stayed in the same room. How is it if you're with your father that you go to sleep as a dad and you don't see your daughter and she's not in the room? That just doesn't sit right with me as an investigator starting to look into this. And then the next morning, it's nine o'clock, everyone's eating buffet, and all of a sudden, where's Anna? Seriously? So as an investigator, the FBI is gonna have an issue of trying to figure out who's with Anna, who's the last person with her, who went to her cabin with her because it was already reported that she went back earlier in the night because she didn't feel good. That's a problem. Bombshell Tonight, the step brother of a teen girl high school cheerleader killed on board a carnival cruise ship last year, has been officially charged with her murder and he is being charged as an adult. For those of you just joining us, for those of you that may not be familiar with the brutal murder of Anna Kettner, aboard a carnival cruise ship, straight out to Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, star of a hit podcast series, Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. Joseph Scott Morgan joining us. What happened to this teen girl? As her parents, the stepmother and the biodad, were right across the hall. They didn't see her for what did we figure out, like 18 hours on a cruise ship, seriously? What happened to Anna? Well, according to what the federal indictment is saying now and we've already had a tease about this, is that she died as a result of what they're calling mechanical asphyxia. Now I've heard the term armbar used multiple times, which is very, very specific Nancy, where they're talking about that someone laid their forearm, which would be what we refer to as the blade of the arm right here across the neck. And that is across the anterior aspect of the neck. There's one little tidbit here that I found out that she's apparently got two areas right here that may be hemorrhage. And why is this significant? Well, it's significant because this attack would have had to have occurred from the front, pressure being placed down on the anterior neck, that's the front of the neck, and literally crushing the trachea, or compressing it to the point where she could not breathe. And in my opinion, at least, what's happening here is that you've got weight that's settling down on her. Nancy, she would have been struggling for breath. To add to this, as you mentioned, they are saying now that she has been sexually assaulted. This is gonna be significant from an evidentiary standpoint where there's been all kinds of things that have been said about who was in and out of the cabin. Nancy, this is, like you said, this is a big torpedo right into the broadside of the defense's case. There were all the warning signs, very, very disturbing, Josca Morgan, because long before Anna Kettner's death, her parents were warned. This stepbrother now indicted in her assault, her sex assault, and her murder. There were all the warnings that the stepbrother had tried to sex assault her before, and nothing was done, nothing was done. And I'm gonna go out on a limb tonight and ask for a review of the parents' conduct because I consider that to be child neglect. Neglecting claims that your daughter is in danger, you do nothing, in fact, it's more than doing nothing, Josca, they put her in a room with the stepbrother that had reportedly tried to sex assault her in the past, Josca, I want you to listen to this. You heard him yelling at her in a harmful way. I've shut the hell up and stuff like that. Like something was like banging around and stuff, and like the chairs were getting thrown around in the room. Though Anna's stepbrother tells family members he has no recollection of what happened to Anna, her brother tells a friend he heard a heated argument between them in their shared cabin the night before Anna was found dead. Anna's brother tells her ex-boyfriend, Joshua, too, that he heard the stepbrother yelling at Anna, the sounds of furniture overturning and screams from inside their room. Straight out to veteran defense attorney, Dan Rubin joining us, founder of Rubin Law Firm, joining us out of LA where a lot of cruise ships take off from near you. Danny Rubin got a question for you. Of course, everyone is presumed innocent until proven guilty under the law. Done, you don't need to start reciting that mantra to me tonight. But what is your take? I'm not talking about the stepbrother right now. I'm talking about the parents who were warned. And I'm gonna show you some more evidence of how I believe they knew the stepbrother had tried to molest Anna in the past at least once. She told people she was afraid of him. Why in the H-E-L-L? Do they think it's okay to put her in the room along with him and the little brother that he kicked out? Locked him out of the cruise ship room all night long. What were they thinking? I mean, if they had some sort of allegation, obviously that's something to consider. But you have to assume that the parents investigated this. They talked to their kids about it. They probably had some family conversations about it. And then they only after that made the choice to put them in the same room together. Now as a parent myself, I would never willingly put my kids in danger. You have to assume that they investigated this and found that there was nothing to it or if there was something to it, they addressed it. Since Anna was killed, Danny, they have done everything they can to protect the stepson. Everything has been all about protecting him, keeping his name secret, not letting anybody find out that he was a suspect. I mean, I have got so much intel on that. It's coming out my ears instead of looking for justice for Anna. Now, why would I assume, given their behavior, that they tried to protect Anna? They put her in the room. You know what? Listen to this. She just didn't feel safe around him. She's scared to tell anybody because she was scared that he would do something to her. Joshua too says Anna's close relationship with her stepbrother was one-sided. The 16-year-old is obsessed with Anna and made her uncomfortable with romantic advances. He once even caught him trying to climb into Anna's bed while the two were on FaceTime. Anna already asleep. He said that I tried to tell the parents that this was happening and they didn't want to believe me. He's like infatuated, attracted to her like crazy. He's always wanted to date her. Chris doesn't realize it's his fault. This whole thing is his fault. If he would have taken the warnings that Anna's ex-boyfriend gave him, then she would still be here. So keep that in mind, Christopher. I blame you. She said it. I didn't say it. She said it. That's our friends at Inside Edition and Just Mom 1984 on TikTok. People don't listen to radio ads. While you're driving or making a sandwich, your subconscious pays full attention. So relax. Let it take over. Sunday makes yard care simple with a custom plan based on your soil, climate, and yard size. No pesticides, no harsh stuff. Custom Sunday lawn plan. Order today and get your custom Sunday lawn plan. Ready for the season ahead. Sunday, a smarter, healthier yard. What happened to her? Dad? On April 17th, the year's scariest movie arrives. Let the mummification ritual begin. Audiences are calling Lee Cronin's The Mummy. Glorious edge of your seat hard, terrifying from beginning to end. I really miss being a part of the family. And an insanely scary ride. Lee Cronin's The Mummy. Only in theaters April 17th. Rated R, under 17, unamid it without parent. This is Danielle Fishel. Rider strong. 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My cat pretends he doesn't care, but he benefits. Chewy just makes the whole pet parent thing easier. For life with pets, the answer is Chewy. Save $20 on your first order with free shipping at Chewpanyans.Chewy.com slash world. Every great business starts with a vision. But to grow, you need capital. Traditional lenders put up roadblocks, strict rules, long waits, and complicated terms that don't fit your business. At Fundable, they fuel businesses with fast, flexible funding that helps you take that next step. Whether you're expanding, hiring, or investing in new opportunities, they make funding simple so you can focus on running your business. The competitive rates, fast approvals, and real people who care about your success. Apply today at MyFundable.com. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Let me understand. To Sidney Silvani joining us, Crime Stories, investigative reporter Sidney, it's my understanding that the parents said the boyfriend was lying, lying about the incident where he's FaceTiming her. He can see what's happening on FaceTime. It's like a phone call with video live. And she, Anna, does his off. It's late at night. They're talking she does his off. And it's then that he sees, according to the boyfriend, the stepbrother crawl on top of Anna Kepner. And she fights him off. I also understand that the parents say the boyfriend lied about all that. He made it all up. What do you know, Sidney? We know that Chris Kepner, yes, claims that this story was a lie that Joshua too made this up in front of the cameras after Anna's death. And he says he has screenshots to prove in a conversation with Anna that Joshua was lying about this. Is the boyfriend lying? Did he lie about what he saw on FaceTime? You decide. Look at him again. She just didn't feel safe around him. She's scared to tell anybody because she was scared that he would do something to her. He said that I tried to tell the parents that this was happening and they didn't want to believe me. He's like infatuated, attracted her like crazy. He's always wanted to date her. From our friends over at Inside Edition, straight out to special guests joining us, Dr. Jerellyn Utter, clinical psychologist specializing in psych evaluations, risk assessments for individuals in the criminal justice system. I almost called him a kid, but he's not a kid. He's being treated as an adult in court. He should have been assessed for criminal behavior, author of mainlining Philly, author of Aftershock, How Past Events Shake Up Your Life Today, and producer of Utter Nonsense, a documentary. Dr. Jerellyn Utter, why isn't so many parents choose to put on blinders to be blind to what is happening right in front of them? You've got the little boyfriend saying, he tried to sex assault your daughter. You've got the boyfriend's father saying, hey, we warned them this was happening. Now she's dead, Dr. Jerellyn. She's dead. And what I and a lot of legal, legal, it's not just me predicted months ago when Anna was first murdered has been born out by a federal indictment. Her own stepbrother is charged. I'm so mad I could chew a nail in half because this could have been in die. This could have been avoided. This indictment, this murder, this alleged sex assault could have been avoided if the parents had listened. What? What is happening in the minds of parents? They don't want to believe something like that could happen in their family. That's it. That's exactly it. So you're looking at a blended family scenario, Nancy, and you have a stepbrother, you know, step sister, Anna and her, you know, her stepbrother, if you will. So a lot of the times, you know, they have this family, they want, they want everything to go well. Everybody wants this blended family to work out and to be successful, but I can't completely rely on that. I have kids myself. I work with juveniles. I work with adults. If at any point in time, you know, I have a daughter and I can see that her affect's different. I mean, it's probably obvious that when you're on a cruise together that she's trying to avoid him. If she's afraid of him, she's trying to avoid him going back to the cabin earlier, maybe locking the door, you know, keeping her distance from him, sharing with the boyfriend that she doesn't feel safe. If I'm the parent, I'm going to look into that. And even if at the end of the day it's decided, hey, you know, nothing happened, I'm still going to do everything I can to protect my child and at minimum get a different room in the cruise on the ship. So, so when we look at incidents like this, it escalated because there was an opportunity. They were in a room together. It was close quarters. She didn't have a lot of other places to go. She's either out and about on the cruise ship or she's in a room that they share. So when we look at the crime and the behavior of the brother, it is something that that is planned and premeditated, but also there's nowhere else for her to go. She's saying she doesn't feel good and she goes to the room and that's where they're staying together. So that's something that that's very concerning. And the other thing that I just wanted to throw out there and answer is he is being charged as an adult, even though he's 16 years old, something that the defense may say is that nor developmentally his prefrontal cortex isn't developed. He's still immature. You know, it was impulsive. It's something that happened. And I just want to kind of throw out there, you know, to everyone right now. Yes, even though he's 16 and his brain may not be developed. And it was something that was building up until your point that was not addressed by the parents. This is something that could have been prevented. You're putting a lot of conflicting thoughts into one monologue and they're all valid. And I'm going to break them down. Number one, I don't want to hear about his frontal cortex or whatever you just said. She's dead. The feds. I was a fed for three years. I know how the feds work. They don't play. They would not have come forward. If they didn't have him lock stock and smoking gun barrel done. I'm just telling you that. I don't want to hear about his brain may not be developed. She's dead. Whether his brain was developed or not, according to the feds, he did it. Now I want to tell you something that according to social, this is written by Chris Kepner, Anna's biological father. Absolutely no evidence of him. Any sort of way about Anna is very convoluted. No matter the claims or any of that. So no, nothing was ever brought to any of our attention for the past two and a half years. Really? Well, if I know what the boyfriend said, how is it that he doesn't know what the boyfriend said? How come we all know, but her own family doesn't know or they don't want to know? You know, you know what's happening right now to Danny Rubin, veteran criminal defense attorney. You know, you must feel this way sometimes, even though you may not want to admit it, that you see violent cases like this. And it feels better to have somebody to blame to say, you did this because I think, Danny, it makes other people, me, you, others think, well, I would never do this. So this is not going to happen to me because I would never feel in the blank. And I first became aware of this phenomenon in rape cases where people would blame the victim saying, oh, she shouldn't have gone to a bar at 11 o'clock at night. This is her fault. Or she shouldn't have worn a miniskirt. This is her fault. Or she shouldn't have gone jogging in a jogging bra. I would never do that because it makes you feel safer to judge somebody else. And right now I'm really coming down on her parents. But frankly, Danny, I think it's justified because if I know the boyfriend warned them, then how come they didn't know? They did know because they said he was lying. They knew of his claims, Danny. I mean, if we believe the boyfriend number one, we have a 17-year-old saying, I told you so. To me, it's always a little bit of a suspect kind of thing because if he just told the parents but not his own parents, I have questions about that. But also, I mean, you have a parent who's being confronted by a 17-year-old boyfriend. You have no idea what the relationship was like. Was it antagonistic? Was it friendly? Was it amicable? We don't know. And all of a sudden this guy is saying, oh, your other son is a dangerous guy. I mean, your first thought as a parent is get out of here. You don't know what you're talking about. Let me talk to my son and see what's going on. The son's inevitably going to say, it wasn't me. I didn't do anything. You turn to the 17-year-old who's dating your daughter again, don't know their relationship. And he says, I talked to my son and this is nonsense. Where you coming from on this? What's your proof? We don't know what their conversation was like. Anna Kettner's body was found. Anna was dead stuffed under a bump, under one of the beds in the room. Do we have proof that her step-brother did this? To this date, we don't have any answers at this point. The parent's involvement, or lack thereof, is a whole other can of worms because tonight the step-brother is unmasked, his face seen for the first time. Now, I want to talk about the indictment. Straight back out to Sydney Silvani joining us, crime stories investigative reporter, what can you tell me? This indictment was unsealed just a few days ago. And we're learning that this teenager is accused of sexually assaulting his older step-sister and then choking her to death to cover up that crime. So we're learning that this 16-year-old is going to be charged as an adult. That's why we have this indictment unsealed today. These charges were first filed in February and he was indicted March 10th and here we are today learning about all of this now. Bombshell Tonight, Anna Kepner's step-brother now charged months and months after she was found dead on a cruise ship. He will be tried as an adult. Now, curious why these charges go down in federal court. What about it, Reuben? Yeah, so when it comes to the federal indictment, the fact is that generally because the charge is so heinous and because the crimes alleged are so severe, the court is likely unsealed this docket and it's trying him as an adult. Okay, let me understand. You're saying because the case is so heinous, that's why they're trying him as an adult? Well, more because the charges are such that they are severe, it's murder and essentially forcible rape. Additionally, the way it was done, the premeditation, the fact that there's sexual component that was premeditated is what they're alleging. That's why he's being tried as an adult. But why by the feds? Because all our legal eagles know that there are typically seven deadlies and if a juvenile is charged with one of the seven deadlies being rape, sodomy, child molestation, murder, arson, armed robbery, aggravated assault, if they're charged with any of those, which are the seven deadly sins as they are called in many juvenile justice systems, the case will be bound over, transferred from juvenile court to adult court. Sometimes there's a hearing involved, sometimes not. But that said, they become candidates to be tried as an adult if charged with one of the seven deadly sins, two of which are manifested here according to the indictment. That's why he's being tried as an adult because he committed allegedly a deadly. But why in the federal system? Generally because this happened in maritime waters. Essentially, because it wasn't conducted in the continental United States on land and it was done on sea, the federal jurisdiction takes over from there, no state has jurisdiction over that. And also, I would say that the Fed does want this case because it was, it is so sensationalized. I mean, the fact is that this is a very, very newsworthy case. The federal government does have that jurisdiction. It deals with maritime issues. It deals with cruise ships that are intercontinental, sometimes waters. And that affects the interstate commerce through which the Fed retains jurisdiction. At the time when this occurred, the stepbrothers case stayed under seal. But US district court judge, Beth Bloom has now ordered it transferred for adult prosecution and the stepbrother is officially charged with first degree murder and aggravated sex abuse. That means to me that there was some sort of a hearing before it was determined he would be tried as an adult. Straight back out to Joseph Scott Morgan, professor, forensics, Jacksonville State University and star of body bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. I want to go over what we know regarding the case. Specifically, this is an aggravated assault, aggravated sex abuse case. Not that there is a typical rape case, but this is aggravated, which means in some way, and we don't know the facts yet, it is more inflammatory. It's worse. I'd like to go over with you specifically the evidence left behind on her neck. What were you saying earlier? What has been stated, Nancy, previously is that an arm bar was used. An arm bar means that the forearm is literally laid across the anterior neck, the front of the neck, and there is a compression event that takes place. Any of our friends out there that are listening can identify with this. You can't catch her breath. There's something occluding your airway perhaps, or if you've ever been in a tight space. She's fighting as well in this. This goes to the aggravation. You begin to think about this as a violent attack. She's resisting perhaps, and he is not only pressing down allegedly on her neck. She's also trying to fight against him, and she's trying to get away from him. All the while, the sex attack is going on. This is going to lead to a mark on her neck that is really going to stand out. What we will find out, and by the way, her examination was done by the Miami-Dade Medical Examiner's office, which is one of the finest in the country. This is going to be a very thorough examination. We're going to learn a lot about the associated hemorrhage in the neck. Find out if this arm, or this arm, could have generated that since they're talking about an arm bar. Nancy, I've got to tell you, I'm very interested to know what the trachea looked like. Is it fractured? We have cartilage in our trachea, and you can fracture cartilage. I'm wondering about that as well. There's so much evidence to be had here, and if I could just interject this, there is one report that comes from Superceding Indictment where Nancy, they use the term penetrative. Now, what does that mean? That means that along with this attack, and they're putting the sexual element in here, that there is a penetrative element to this attack, i.e., a rape. And for any lawyer that's out there, when you begin to think about, well, you can explain away his DNA in this environment. Yeah, you can. Where you can't explain it away. You cannot explain it away in her very intimate area. That's something that, you know, as they say, that dog ain't going to hunt, and that's going to be a major problem for them, Nancy. Put Joe Scott up, please. Joe Scott, look around. Are you in preschool? Are you in the first grade? No, you're not. You're on crime stories. Tell it like it is. What is an intimate area? What are you saying? Speak English to me. You're talking about her vagina, her rectum, her all of her genitalia. Now, tell me, flat out what you're looking for. Well, what I'm talking about is this was going to be a violent sexual assault. And here's another bit of a clue that we have, and this was mentioned at the top of the show. We talked about how that this was something that occurred before her death, Nancy. And so what does that mean? They saw evidence probably at autopsy that there are hemorrhagic tears, rips, abrasions, contusions that are in her vaginal anal area. And so that is going to be very easily demonstrated in court, photographically. This is going to hit the jury in the chest like a 10 pound sledgehammer when they see how violent this attack potentially was. And, you know, again, we go back to this idea that she's been very, very resistant. Here's one other piece as well. We all know Nancy, you and I have been covering cases for a long, long time. What do victims do when they're being assaulted? They try to defend themselves. I want to know, and we see her beautiful nails that have been displayed. She's on a cruise. She's probably got her nails that have been done prior to going on the on the cruise. They would have done nail scrapings and trimmings. They have her fingernails, Nancy. And I really wonder if there's going to be biological evidence, i.e. skin cells, maybe his blood underneath those nails. I also want to know probably, well, what's significant. Did anybody see anything on him, any kind of scratches on his face, his neck, his chest, his hands, his arm, and was that documented? That's going to be essential in this case. Anna, teen girl Anna was a senior at Temple Christian School, a cheerleader. She was to graduate this month, 2026. She loved children, dolphins, butterflies, arts and crafts. She loved doing puzzles with her grandma. She got her boaters license before she could drive. And she was Patty certified to dive in deep water, loved all music except heavy metal. She planned to join the US Navy and then go on to law enforcement to become a canine officer. It's painful that we are describing her in life. It seems like no one else is talking about Anna. Everyone's talking about a juvenile being charged as an adult. You just heard Jos got Morgan who has handled over 1000 death scenes, death scenes of all sorts, be they accident, suicide, natural causes like heart attack or stroke, undetermined or homicide. Talking about was the defendant, the stepbrother examined immediately after? Did anyone look at his body for clues? Were there scratches on him? Were there bruises on him? We may never know because it seemingly the family did everything they could to protect him. Listen, he was a good student. He played soccer, very quiet young man. He had demons, I think in his past and he was trying to deal with those. Barbara and Jeffrey Kepner are shocked Anna's 16 year old stepbrother is being eyed as a suspect in her murder, describing them as two peas in a pod and very close. She says the teen was distraught when he learned Anna's body was found and couldn't speak during an initial interview with FBI agents. Barbara says the teen claims he can't remember what happened and was hospitalized for psychiatric observation when they arrived back in Miami. My friends at ABC couldn't speak or wouldn't speak because I'm pretty sure, Sidney Salvani, that that morning at the buffet when the parents roll up to the food trough, he was acting normally. No one said they noticed him behaving any differently until the bodies found. So is it couldn't or wouldn't speak? And I've had it up to here hearing about what a great athlete and quiet young man he was, how they were two peas in a pod. They're still playing out this fantasy that Anna was not afraid of him, Sidney. Right. This young man, this teenager was not upset over Anna's death over finding Anna's body. He was upset that he got caught. That's clearly what this is. Anna's body was stuffed under her bed. This was a terrible cover up job. And he was disappointed that his life was going to change forever, that he's going to spend a considerable amount of time behind bars if prosecutors can prove that he did this to his step sister. Sunday makes yard care simple with a custom plan based on your soil, climate and yard size. No pesticides, no harsh stuff. Custom Sunday lawn plan. Order today and get your custom Sunday lawn plan ready for the season ahead. Sunday, a smarter, healthier yard. What happened to her? On April 17th, the year's scariest movie arrives. The after-womification ritual begins. Audiences are calling Lee Cronin's The Mummy. Glorious edge of your seat heart. Terrifying from beginning to end. I really miss being a part of the family. And an insanely scary ride. Lee Cronin's The Mummy. Only in theaters April 17th. Rated R, under 17, unamid it without parent. This is Danielle Fishel, Ryder Strong and Will Friedle from Pod Meets World. You know what I didn't expect? Becoming best friends with Chewy's customer service. Oh, been there. I've chatted with them as late as midnight. They actually get pet people. And if pickles or Lucky hates something, I just send it back. 100% satisfaction guarantee gives you a whole year to make a return. No questions asked. Meanwhile, I'm over here ordering everything for Bill and Brunch. Food, treats, beds, toys, because Chewy has over 100,000 products to choose from. And it shows up in like a day. I mean, my dog, Sammy, thinks the delivery driver is her personal assistant and I'm not sure she's wrong. It's not just for dogs and cats either. They've got stuff for birds, fish, reptiles. The list goes on and on. And the health side is huge for me too. Prescriptions, pet insurance, telehealth vet visits. They're even opening vet clinics now. My cat pretends he doesn't care, but he benefits. Chewy just makes the whole pet parent thing easier. For life with pets, the answer is Chewy. Save $20 on your first order with free shipping at chewpanions.chewy.com. Every great business starts with a vision. But to grow, you need capital. Traditional lenders put up roadblocks, strict rules, long waits and complicated terms that don't fit your business. At Fundable, they fuel businesses with fast, flexible funding that helps you take that next step. Whether you're expanding, hiring or investing in new opportunities, they make funding simple so you can focus on running your business. Competitive raids, fast approvals and real people who care about your success. Apply today at myfundable.com. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Straight out to Danny Rubin joining us, the veteran defense attorney joining us out of LA, founder of the Rubin Law Firm. Dan, as you know, judges instruct the jury with jury instructions. That's the last thing they hear before they go to jury deliberations. Not closing arguments. Following closing arguments, the judge gives jury instructions. The law by which they are to judge the facts. And they alone are the sole judge of the facts and the law. Isn't it true that they will be told they, the jury, aren't allowed to consider behavior before, during and after the incident? Isn't that true? Of course they are. They're able to consider the events leading up to the events at issue. They're able to consider prior relationships. They are able to consider conduct by the victim, by the defendant, by the parents, by everyone. What they can't consider is the character of the defendant, but that's a totally separate thing. But yeah, conduct is very much going to be an issue. Put them up please. Of course they cannot consider character or reputation unless and until, of course, the defense brings it up. What a great kid he is. Once they do that, the demons, did you hear the grandma? I guess that was the grandma saying he had demons. Well, if even the grandma knows that this teen has demons, why? And the H-E-L-L did they put the daughter in the room with him? I don't get it. They knew he had demons. Now, I can only imagine what those demons are, but what I'm getting at is the body was hidden. Anna, Tingrel, Anna's body was hidden. We're now learning nude, naked, under the bed. Let's see the inside of that cruise room, cruise ship room please, or a facsimile thereof. She was hidden. She was covered with a blanket, wrapped up in a blanket, and life vest stuffed on top of her body. Now, question, Danny, don't you believe that is an indication he knew what he had done was wrong? He had to hide it? I mean, this goes all the way back to the Garden of Eden for Pete's sake. Why didn't I argue this to a jury? I just thought of it. Day late and a dollar short. Even Adam and Eve, when they knew they did something wrong, they hid. They hid. It's a very old story. He hid the body and then pretended everything's fine. Doesn't that indicate he knew what he did was wrong? I think the issue is going to be when he realized what he did was wrong. I mean, the premeditation goes to, did he premeditate to rape and murder her? Or was this just a crime of passion? He realized what he had done only afterward, and then he freaked out. That's really going to be what the significance of the hiding of the body is going to be. I think, yes. I got a breakdown. You just said, hold on. Hold on. You got me drinking on the fire hydrant. You're too much, too fast. So you're saying he only realized what he did was wrong after he did it. Now, isn't it also true? And guys, this is all rhetorical. Dan Rubin has tried hundreds of cases and won a lot of them. And you know, his clients were probably guilty, but he won anyway. Okay, put him back up, please. And yes, we know the brother, the stepbrother is innocent until proven guilty. We know that. Rubin, isn't it true under the law? And I know you know the answer. That intent to commit a crime can be formed in the snap of a finger, the twinkling of a moment, the blink of an eye, the time it takes me to raise the gun and pull the trigger. Less time. I don't need a prolonged plan to just stalking you for weeks on end, following you around town, and then bam, killing you finally when you get out of your car. That is not necessary under the law. It can be just like that. Isn't that true? That is true. That's unequivocal. That can be true. So you don't think at some point when he was ripping her clothes off and then strangling her, well, Joe Scott tells you how long it takes to asphyxiate someone. That's plenty of time to form intent. And then only when she's dead, he goes, uh-oh, my bad, boo-boo, do over. No, uh-uh, that ain't gonna work. I think the difference between what I'm saying premeditation is that he may have premeditated the, you know, the sexual assault or not. We don't know. But the fact is, like, let's say there's a struggle going on and he uses just too much force. He doesn't intend to kill her, but he intends to restrain her. That's not necessarily murder, or not necessarily murder in the first degree or premeditated murder. So now you're saying, and I like this, Plan B. If the first plan doesn't work, he didn't know what he was doing, he didn't intend to do it, fall back on Plan B. That he intended to restrain her and she died. I heard you say that. Wouldn't that be felony murder under the law, which qualifies for life without parole? Not for him, because he was a juvenile, but it's the same sentence. It's still murder. If I intend to subdue you, Dan Rubin, by asphyxiating you until you're a subdued or holding you by the arms, resulting in bruises that Joe Scott Morgan described, that is an aggravated assault. And if a death occurs intentionally or not during that felony textbook case, felony murder, life. It's possible, but I think the fact is that his lawyers are going to be attacking the premeditation first and foremost. They'll also be attacking any sort of DNA evidence that links him allegedly to what had happened. The fact is that the premeditation issue is going to certainly be on trial, no pun intended. And again, going back to our original discussion as to what significance the hiding of the body is going to be. Yes, I do agree that that shows some sort of understanding or even remorse as to what happened. The hiding of the body can potentially show that remorse or can show that there was some sort of regret as to what happened. But again, it's going to be at issue as to what was done when, by whom and the evidence that shows it. Sidney Silvani, Crime Stories investigative reporter. Where is he now? All this time he's been allowed to stay at home with his family who are covering for him. And that is still the case. Shockingly, this teenager is still staying with a relative away from family members. He is not in lock up. He is not under detention. He is staying with a family member. Yes. Hold on. Let me check my. Yeah, it's working. He's not in custody. He's charged with murder one by the feds and sex assault. And walking free and walking free. Just got more. Have you ever heard anything like it? No, I haven't. And considering the level of violence, we're talking about first degree homicide here, Nancy. You know, I gotta tell you, I got grandbabies. You know, if I lived in that area, I wouldn't want to take them out to eat. I wouldn't want to go anywhere in public because I don't know who's got the chains on this guy. Who's in control with this individual? I mean, the feds, a federal grand jury has said that there is enough evidence here to move forward with some really heavy duty charges here. I've never heard of anything like this that you put up just this brief. You know why I went to you instead of Dr. Gerald and Utter? Because I was going to talk about, you know, why he would be at home or in a private residence as opposed to jail. But you, Joe Scott, you and I have gone over and over and over the autopsy report. Well, what we know of it. What's really disturbing? Well, so many things are disturbing. I really don't know where to start. But this is part of a pattern. It didn't just happen that night from what I can deduce, Joe Scott. You know about the bruises on her body. You know how she was restrained. You know how she was asphyxiated. Now he's still not in custody. And I don't mean custody with adults. I mean in juvenile incarceration, which is where he would stay if convicted until he comes of age at 21. He would go into the adult system. She is dead. According to the feds, she was raped, aggravated sex assault in a room door locked. And now she's dead and he is in a private residence. We wait as justice unfolds and may it roll down like a river. If you have information, whether you think it is significant or not, please dial 754703-2000. And tonight we remember American hero deputy sheriff Landon Faulkner, Hamilton County Sheriff's, Tennessee, just 24, killed in the line of duty, leaving behind a wife turned widow, Megan, and four children. American hero deputy sheriff Landon Faulkner. Nancy Gray signing off. Goodbye, friend. Order today and get your custom Sunday lawn plan ready for the season ahead. Sunday, a smarter, healthier yard. 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