Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home w. Sandy Ernest Allen

Hello, you. Welcome to You Are Good at Feelings Podcasts about Movies. Today, we are talking about Star Trek IV, The Voyage Home. We are talking about it with our great friend, Sandy Ernest Allen. I'm your host for today, Alex Steed. Welcome. You Are Good at Feelings Podcasts about Movies is exactly what it sounds like. This is a show where we talk about movies and how they make us feel about who and how we are in the world. It's a Feelings Podcast about movies. We're not film critics. We are here to talk about movies and feelings. So, I am so glad that you are here for exactly that. Star Trek IV, The Voyage Home is a 1986 American science fiction film. It's the fourth installment in the Star Trek film franchise based on the television series Star Trek. Intended returning home to Earth to face consequences for their actions in the previous film, The Crew of the USS Enterprise finds the planet in grave danger from an alien probe attempting to contact now extinct humpback whales. The crew traveled to Earth's past to find whales who can answer the probes call. This movie was directed by Leonard Nimoy. Sandy Ernest Allen is a queer and trans journalist and has a newsletter called What's Helping Today, which you can find linked in the show notes of this very episode. How are you doing? What's going on in your world? How are you feeling? What's happening out there, folks? I know. It's wild. It's a wild time all the time these days. But remember how we save up that dread. We get involved. We find ways to help in our community. We find ways to show up for our neighbors. We find mutual aid drives and organization and any which way that we can do stuff and do stuff with other people with our community. That's how we are staving off that dread. At least that's how I'm doing it. The other day I tabled with Punk Rock Saved Lies at a law dispute show here in Southern California. A very cool organization. We gave out a bunch of harm reduction materials, including testing strips and Narcan. Really great organization doing great things at shows. It was very fun to organize with them and talk with everyone who came up to the table and grabbed some stuff. I had a grand time doing that. That was how I staved off the dread that day. How are you doing it? Where are you getting up to in your community? Let me know. Whatever it is you end up doing and however you end up participating, however you end up staving off that dread, don't forget that you, my friend, are good. You are good at feelings, podcasts about movies, is made possible by your support. Thanks to everyone who supports us on Patreon and Apple Podcast subscriptions. You got bonus episodes. We get a bonus episode with Sandy Ernest Allen coming out this very week about Star Trek, The Next Generation, some greatest hits. If you like this conversation, you like the tone and tenor of this conversation, I love this very episode. We get more of it in this Star Trek, The Next Generation conversation, where Sandy takes my hand and says, here's how to do Star Trek, The Next Generation. Even if it's not your cup of tea, it's a very fun conversation. Thanks to everyone who has sent their kind words about the pit conversation that we have on Patreon. That's free for everybody. And that's very specifically just a one-time thing. Nico Stratus and I both watched this last season of the pit and we were like, we should talk about it, probably. Let's talk about it. We talk about TV on the OC again, so let's talk about it here. All sorts of campaigns, all sorts of ways that you can contribute, but that is a great place to start if you're not doing something right now. Don't forget, all our struggles are interlinked, so let's show up where we can. All right, that's it. That's all you need for this introduction of this episode. Let's just talk about Star Trek for the voyage home. This is the one with the whales. Let's do it. Hello, Sandy. Hi, how are you? Oh my gosh, I have a weird admission to offer you, which is not only have I never seen this movie, I have never watched more than five consecutive minutes of Star Trek media in my life. Oh, wow. And that's not true. I saw first contact around when it came out because my uncle is a Star Trek fan, but that came out in the late 20th century. So I don't remember anything about it. You never did TNG? No. Wow. Okay. Well, so that's kind of exciting. I don't know. This is so exciting. I fucking loved this movie. I'm so happy. I'm so happy. It's the coolest. Like, I love a movie that is a documentation of a city at a time. I love outsiders dropping into a city situation and having to kind of understand it. Yes. This is so good. But before we do any of that, tell me about you. I mean, I'm so thrilled to hear that you loved this movie. I love this movie. And I have that very opposite experience of like, I don't remember a consciousness that doesn't include this movie. You know what I mean? Like, it was one of those ones that was just like the bootleg VHS wall. And like, this was one of those ones that like, everyone agreed was fine. And so we could watch it over and over and over and over. I think, you know, there's a magic to this movie that I've been a fan of it sort of like, independent of like a broader Star Trek consciousness. If that makes sense, like as a little, little kid watching this movie. And so for context, I'm from the Bay Area. I'm from Southern Marin. Like I had that my family owned a business in the city when I was young. So I was like, in downtown San Francisco, in the late 80s, early 90s, like that those scenes and like the scenes that are shot in Southern Marin and stuff, like the quote unquote aquarium that's there. Like that stuff is just it looks like my childhood. It sends me back in such an intense and almost like visceral way where like rewatching it now as an adult, it's like the most delicious treat I can possibly give myself. Living in any city now, the Bay City's sort of experienced this at a hyper rate before other cities did where there's such a rapid development change all the time. And like right now in Los Angeles, you know, there's a there's a lot of noise about the redevelopment that's going to happen around the Viper Room and like the Viper Room will go from being the Viper Room that we know to like some some homage and like, you know, hyper 21st century building. And it's just, you know, there's like an ugliness to the modernity of it all into the progress of it all, etc. It not to the progress, but to the quote like liberal progress and seeing documentation, especially like I love like just like handheld VHS documentation of a place. I love that. But like seeing like directed, beautifully captured documentation of cityscape that does not exist anymore is my favorite one of my favorite things. Totally. And one of my like, I don't know, movie pet peeves in general is just that San Francisco is one of those cities that gets depicted a lot. But often they didn't shoot there. And to me, it's very clear, you know, like, and that's just the movies, right? But like, in particular, there's like a real dearth of like San Francisco set quote unquote movies that were actually shot in the city at all. And like this one, they definitely shot in the city, you know, I'm wearing my Bay Area hat. There's just so many beautiful shots of like the city at the time. And then they're doing that fish out of water thing with having the cast walk around. And the sort of joke is like, they kind of blend in even wearing their their like several centuries hence garb or whatever. They're just like, you know, Spock wearing his white robe or whatever. His free speech movement. Nobody in the Bay Area is like actually minding all that much. Like, I think for me, there's just such a delight in like the way in which that town at its best is like a city of weirdo's and people who just got there. It's kind of a pirate town, you know, like the hippies took it over like it's how do these waves of things and like the the the sort of permissiveness of the people of San Francisco in the Bay Area in general in this movie is just one of my absolute favorite things. Like very few of them are wondering too many questions about this entire fleet of like future space people who showed up. It's not until you ask a cop where to get nuclear vessels that things are that things are in trouble. And that cop is perfect. That cop is like central casting from like a gay fantasy, which I really love. Again, just looks like childhood that classic CHP or like SFPD officer. I just like, I love those those people and the jokes like when when when kills when when Shatner's like, Oh, they're still using money, we have to find some. I feel like as a child, that was probably like the beginning of my consciousness of the fact that capitalism could end on some level. Right. Absolutely. Yeah. And it's just like they're still using money. It's so funny. Okay. So before we get before we get into the details of it all, yeah, I mean, there's so many, it would be hard not to get ahead of yourself with this. I will watch other Star Trek movies. Every time I even get close to the media, I think like, Oh, there's so much. I think part of it is like, there's so much here. And I get I get daunted by that. But if this were the only Star Trek movie I ever watched, I would be fine because it's one of a standalone. It's one of it's hilarious. It's a very funny movie. Yes, it's a very funny movie. And I will say for me, so like, I'm not like a Trekkie per se, like my Star Trek fandom, such as it is was like, this movie 99%. Like that was all it was for most of my life. Like I just seen it over and over and over and over. It was so real to me. Like there was an aquarium in the in the actual San Francisco when I was a kid and some of the Star Trek actors, I think did the voices in the light show. So I think as a child, like I had trouble discerning how much this movie was factor fiction. Like they they're parking their spaceship in a park that like they didn't actually film there but like a park I knew. And so for me, I think as a little kid, I was like, is Star Trek real? I didn't exactly know. But I never watched like, I found the other movies scary as a kid, like the wrath of con I found like, I couldn't watch it scary. And I was a little child. So I think that's why. So I've never even seen the movies like five or I think there's five or six go beyond this one. That's four. I've never seen those all the way through. And then I wasn't a fan of any of the shows until like a decade ago, less, a friend showed up at my house and was just like, you have to become a TNG fan and like put on a bunch of really good TNG episodes and was hanging out all weekend. And I by the end of the weekend was extremely hooked and was like, Oh, this show rocks. And I think one of the things that it's like, in hindsight, it's the same era kind of of Star Trek, like as the Wales movie as I think of it, like it's that same like late 80s, early 90s. And I think kind of like higher camp, you know, moment, and then now we're in a much more serious, you know, kind of Star Trek that we do. But like it was almost like this movie, like you say, it's a comedy, I think rewatching it, I was aware of how much like, yeah, this is not an action movie. There's not like, we're not doing like, you know, shoot, shoot bang bang, like zoom zoom, like there's none of that, right? Like it's a very different energy to it. And it's good to know, not good to know, but it's interesting to know that the prior movies don't necessarily have that. And I also love the idea of like a distant sequel, be in corp fully incorporating another genre, like, like if this is if this is the other movies are like serious, like kind of Star Trek movies, and then this is like fish out of water, hilarious, like one line after another, like Scotty using the computer and the manufacturer's iconic, iconic, and that guy wearing a giant button. I was like, what the fuck is happening? As I watched that scene, I was like, oh, I've never noticed that button before. And I was like, I bet that's because I literally couldn't read when I was first watching this movie. You know what I mean? Like, it wouldn't have landed at all. But like, yeah, the way that it's just like stacked with jokes and like goofy bits, and it like, kind of never stops. It's compact. It kind of like powers through this whole story really fast. Like I was noticing that on the rewatch, like, wow, this thing moves. Like they are in this wacky plot like pretty quick. I mean, I rewatched the preceding three over the last few years. I've seen them all. And like, the tone shift is so remarkable in terms of like, this is like sort of alluded to at the top of this movie, but Kirk has just come off of his son dying. Like that's that's like the action that precedes this and like Spock dying come back to life. It's like a little weirder than that. But sort of like, like, okay, quick, quick summary, Spock. Okay. I'm trying to like say this in words. Okay, so Spock knew that like the only opportunity to like save everybody or whatever, you know, was he transferred his mind to bones. McCoy. That's what's happening there. And then his body coincidence, total coincidence, they put it in this like little sunglasses case and shot it out into space. And they did the memorial for Spock. And then that that coffin wound up on a planet that was regenerating. And so the previous movie search for Spock has been largely focused on this like child version of Spock that they go to this planet and find who like quickly ages back into Leonard Nimoy. And like, then they have to do a ceremony where they take bones because they kind of figure out like hip bones is acting weird, you know, and then they have like, they go back to Vulcan and they get like Spock's dad, I think does like a big ceremony where he puts McCoy, you know, the Spock part back into Spock. And so then he's all better. And so this this movie, like, and one of the things that happens in the course of being on that planet that's regenerating is Kirk's son dies, but in a very like, you know, heroic kind of way. And so we're like, at the top of this movie, I was kind of laughing at the sequence because I was like, wow, like Kirk is mourning his child, you wouldn't know that from watching this. Not with how he's just swaggering about. He's just like trying to meet this exactly. This scientist, he's like picking her up. He is so busy. I've never seen a man walk so dick forward in my entire life, his Captain Kirk or Admiral Kirk, excuse me, in this in this movie. He is he is like his crotch is like two feet in front of his body at all times. Oh my god, I mean, all of them look amazing. And I think the other thing that to me just like as a present day adult really is striking is like this series, like, or these movies rather were made like kind of two decades after the original show. These are like not just middle-aged people. Like these are people who it would be wise for them to stretch, you know, because because the body is changing and it's important. Like I love that they're not even your parents. They're like your parents when you're 27 years old. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think as a kid again, I would have not really noticed that nuance, like because I think just adults or adults or whatever. And rewatching it now, I'm like, wow, you know, these actors, like they came back and did these movies, like all this time later and like kind of like kept going with these parts. And like there, I mean, Kirk especially is just like, as you say, he's, I don't know, I mean, he's really bringing it in terms of like the energy and like. Shatner is 55 years old in this movie. Shatner today, Spry, is 95 years old. I'm laughing so hard. He's 55 and he is gonna fuck anything that moves. Like that's amazing. Everything about this movie feels unlikely. I guess that's the point. Totally. And there's some more nuance around this over the past handful of years. And I don't want to take away from that nuance. But largely in the time that follows this movie, you don't see aging like this unless it's a comment on aging. Right. They are just presented as action stars. Yeah. And they are in their middle 50s. Yeah. Yeah. And I think part of it is just the, I mean, the sheer magnitude of these roles. These are huge roles. Like these characters, these actors playing these parts, like there's just such star power there in part because they have spent all this time. At this point, by the time we're hitting the fourth movie, they have reprised this for a moment now. Like they're in some kind of groove. And I feel like this movie, and it's, we haven't said yet, it's directed by Leonard Nimoy. Yes. It's directed by Leonard Nimoy and it's dedicated to the crew of The Challenger. Oh my God. Talk about another detail that I would not have been able to understand. I haven't seen, I haven't seen a more, I mean, and it's lovely and I'm not talking shit at all, but I haven't seen a more immediately disorienting memorial than in Sleepaway Camp where it opens to mother a doer. And you're like, what does that mean? But yeah, to like immediately be like, oh, this is where we are in history. Like we are in Challenger time. Yes. And it's a very like of that moment reference. And then we, the movie does kind of wind up in that present, which is kind of interesting. But like for the most part, again, it's just the kind of detail that I wouldn't have been aware of watching this thing. And I wouldn't have understood like the first part is kind of all kind of, it's a, there's a lot of like plot that's wrapping up what had happened in all the previous movies. Yeah, they have to like get it out of their system. They're like, oh, and this claymoth is exactly like Kirk's. He's a big trouble. Like they're kind of like, and then quickly the frame of the movie is so funny. They're like, yeah, now he's fine. Now so it's Sunday spot. Anyway, there is a really big, yeah, exactly. It's a really big probe. And it's fucking up everything. So should we say the, do you want to say the tribe? Yeah, what's the plot? I will try to do this. I'm happy to. You should, you should do it. The one thing, the one thing I do want to say that I'm not going to talk about because I'm ill equipped, even if you were equipped, we only have so much time. If you want an overview of like Star Trek and how we got here and whatever Wikipedia exists. Like, but I do think contextually what's important is like Star Trek exists for like, and people forget this, it exists for like three years. It spawns, a lot of people don't realize this, it spawns erotic, largely homo erotic fan fiction by way of zines and stuff, which is like a very cool thing. I mean, it obviously existed, but like it really starts to exist with Star Trek. That's a cool and important part of the history. The cast comes back for the Star Trek animated cartoon later, which is sort of like very much in the zeitgeist and then very much in the zeitgeist by way of reruns on Nickelodeon and Nick at Night around this time. And the movies start to really happen, I think in the late 70s or early 80s. And then there's a Star Trek movie every two years, starting in 1980 or whatever for the rest of time. Like that's where that's where we're at. And so, so tell us about, I fucking can't believe this movie exists. Tell us about Star Trek 4 and what we're dealing with here. Yeah, and I also like, you know, this is a movie that feels very standalone. I mean, that's my experience of it is that you don't need to know anything else about the show or anything to enjoy this thing. Like it, it does feel so once you get into it, you can just enjoy it. And you don't, I think the idea was probably right. They were selling tickets to both the like boomer parents who found this nostalgic because of the show. And then the younger generation, you know, it was like a new offering would be my guess. I mean, that was how it worked in my household for sure. But like, okay, this movie opens basically they tidy up some stuff from the previous movies, and then they get to the action, which is, and I thought this was cool reading about how they wanted to make a movie that had no like bad guy. And I do think that is one of the things that on the rewatch really does stand out about what makes this unusual is the like, so the action is this. I was wait, I was like, when or when is the bad guy gonna come? Never. And so the what happens is this giant probe shows up and is like fucking up earth because it is. And all the systems are down and the oceans are rising. And, and, you know, we watch a crew on a spaceship, you know, like have a tough time. And basically, like, you know, Kirk and co are far enough away coming back from Vulcan. And they're also they're in a Klingon spaceship because of a plotline related to previous movies. And so they get the message that like, don't come back to earth, you know, this giant probe is messing everything up. And basically, you know, Yehura and a few of the others deduce like, Oh, that's whale sound that the probe is making. Which I while I'm watching, I'm like, obviously, but then we learn that whales have been extinct for a while. And we yes, so that I think this is the real when I was thinking about there is a moral bent to this movie. It's an obvious like ecological message, right? And I feel like the actual bad point they're like, if only humans knew they were fighting against themselves when they were done, like, yes, thanks for connecting the dots. The bad guy is like past mankind, let whales go, it's extinct, you know, like I think. And so the crew comes up with the, I mean, you, we would all thought of it, right? Obvious move, fly around the sun, travel through time, and then go back to like late 80s, San Francisco, and get a couple of whales there, and then come back to the future. And so that's basically the rest of the movie is, you know, hijinks ensue when the crew of the Enterprise, you know, go back back in time to the present, basically, and are focused on on kidnapping a pair of whales that they quickly find. That's so cool. That's so cool that they find because of an advertisement on a bus. They're like, Oh, there. This movie has a lot to say about also, and we'll talk about it in their interactions, but has a lot to say about like how we are in public. Yeah, which is really interesting. Like, like Leonard Nimoy, who wrote the movie, I guess I should ask that. But whoever, whoever's movie this is, is very concerned about the overuse of profanity, and is, does not like when punks listen to a simulacrum of punk music on a bus. That scene with the punk on the bus, so they're crossing like the Golden Gate Bridge and like the punk is playing the loud music, and then Nimoy takes him out using some kind of Vulcan Holder, I mean, that was the kind of thing that as a kid, I was like, Wow, is this real? And like, I, the, I was reflecting on this earlier today. I was like, the teenagers, when I was a kid, looked like that, you know, like, they had that look. And I remember being like, Oh my God, you know, like, that's so scary. And then now, obviously, it's just a joke. And, you know, it's the kind of thing that like, I don't know, it's, it's such a beautiful shot like scene on some level, I just enjoy like watching them go across the bridge. Like, I think a lot of it now I'm just like, Oh, this is so cool. That song was made for the movie. Yes, I saw that. And, and that actor, the actor is like one of the people who arranged and put the song together. It's so, I mean, it's, it's just amazing. That actor, Kirk Thatcher has since gone on to direct a bunch of Muppets. The way that Spock is a, so he in the scheme of these movies, he's just been completely regenerated, like his entire consciousness has been restarted. And that is where we get that amazing scene at the beginning where he's still on Vulcan and he's training. And the thing is asking him all the three computers are asking him all the questions all at once. And then the thing goes, how do you feel? How do you feel? And he has no idea how to answer it. And he and his mom have to have a conversation about like feelings and what they are or whatever. I mean, like, it's just like, it's, it's such a gorgeous Spock because he is this like, he is Spock, but he's also completely off and weird. And he's just wearing a white robe with like a thing tied around his head the whole time to hide his ears and like, his whole, his whole existence up to this point within the movies, I assume is him learning to reconcile the human element of him. And now he's confronted with having to do that again, like very, very abruptly. Yeah, exactly. Like he's a restarted person who's just like redoing it all. And we're kind of watching that in real time. And I mean, it's like, the movie is unserious, but in some senses, it is serious. And I feel like I agree entirely. I think that it's like really doing something. Yeah. And it's doing so because it's funny, you never feel confronted with what it's doing. So basically this, the crew of them that, you know, goes back to the San Francisco of the 80s, they quickly like kind of disperse into various teams that are going to like figure this whale project out. And you've got like Kirk, who's, you know, also immediately kind of trying to woo the like whale scientists who works at the whale aquarium across the bridge in Sausalito. And another couple of them are going to go to like Alameda to the nuclear base because they need something there for the spaceship. And there's like a whole project to get really thick, clear, transparent aluminum. And, you know, they're putting this kind of whole like project together through the rest of the movie. And then I mean, on some level, nothing else happens. They just do the project. They get it done. Nothing really stops them. There's like a bit of a hiccup in terms of like having to go to the hospital. Like, you know, there's the little bit with like the coma and like, but for the most part, what's that that that crew member's name? It's check off, right? Check off is out and about being a Russian asking to find where nukes are, which in San Francisco, not great. And obviously he the they end up running into some issues. And gets detained and then running away like falls off of some platform and like bonks, bonks his head. And then they have to like liberate him using using the aid of a marine biologist, which is also amazing. They recruit a marine biologist played by Andy's mom from Child's Play. And, and I can imagine a person who has no more I have to look I do not know her name off the top of my head, but I can imagine an actress who has a more surprising filmography than this woman who is a Star Trek for Child's Play and then is the mom from 7th Heaven. It's the craziest. It's Catherine Hicks. She's in Peggy's Suga Mary. Wild. She's so good in this. She's so good. Re-watching it. I was like, this is an amazing performance in part because she has this like cast of famous people doing this thing and she has to kind of come in and she's like the, you know, moral center to some degree. Like she keeps, you know, putting her foot down and saying, now wait a minute, mister, like your whole act doesn't make sense or whatever. And we're kind of watching her like she's the only person who has a problem with like what Spock is wearing or the fact that Spock is swimming in the whale tank and is like telepathic with the whale and emerges from the tank being like Gracie's pregnant. Yeah. So they're, they're planned right. They're going to go steal the whale. Okay. So Kirk and Spock are going to go find out how to steal the whales and, and Scotty and the doctor, McCoy, McCoy have to go and get materials for this. And then again, they just don't consider the global politics of the time and they send check off to, and who is accompanying check off? Uhura over to Alameda to the naval base. They have to go and get, yeah, the Russian and the Black Lady unfortunately have to do the sketchiest homeland security thing and they send them off to do that, which, you know, does not, it works about as well as you would imagine that it works. Even though security is like a guy with a dog, you know, you can just waltz in and they, they all go do their respective things. But when Kirk and Spock are doing, are like getting the whales or whatever, they like go on a tour. Spock gets in the water and talks to the whales telepathically by like putting his head up against the whale head. And then they spend like at least 20 minutes having to convince this marine biologist that they are legit. Even though I love that they've just resigned that there's no way to explain this, but she keeps asking. She's like, tell me what's going on. Something's going on. I have a photographic memory. I know that you were talking about the past, which is now, and that's what's happening. And then this lady just ends up living in the 23rd century. Her plot is so hard to rewatch now, although on some level it's so radical to me that last moment with her and Kirk where she's like, I'll see you. I was like, that is so hardcore. Like she just left her life, left her time. She's gone forever and she doesn't even hook up with him. Like she just goes. She's like, I've got shit to do. I've got a gig on. I'm a space, you know, scientists now and yeah, I'm a space marine biologist. They don't even know it's like, what is she going to do? Like she's got so much catch up work. And I'd say watching it, I'm so concerned for her. Although it seems like she was a little alienated on Planet Earth. I think, you know, and I think like that speaks to the larger issue, which is like to be ecologically forward on planet earth in 1987 or 2026. It is an inherently alienating thing. And so like, how beautiful would it be to go to a future where people actually give a fuck? Oh, it's an amazing scene when she's just like, I'm coming with you. You know, I think even as a little kid, I was like, oh, this is so cool. Like imagine, you know, if they showed up and they were like, you can just skip, you know, to the future or whatever, like, what are you doing? I was like, I don't know, probably kind of sucks right now. Like, they're not going to be weird about your existence every minute. You're like, cool, that's great. That's awesome. Grand. Yeah. I just have to catch up on 200 years of biology. That's fine. Oh, it's such a phenomenal like, for some reason, she sells it. It doesn't come off as like this movie could so quickly be a train wreck and be like something that you don't must laugh at for how like, you know, you could see something like this really not working. And I think the fact that instead it just like, absolutely works. Like, it's full of fun. It's got like kind of endless moments that are like so fun to rewatch. Like, it's one of those like, I'm always amazed at, I admittedly don't really like rewatching things. So there's very, very few things that I actually will put on again, again. This is one of the only ones that I'm always like, yeah, this thing is just, it's a delight. It's really great. Yeah. I need to to the point of her, her transition, like the, the, her date, like her closest confidant is this guy that works at the whale shop who who like doesn't tell her that the whales are going away so she can say goodbye. So it's like, oh, fuck this. I am leaving. That scene with her co-worker is so funny. And her, I think the implication is the only real emotional entanglement that she has is with the whales themselves. So if the whales themselves are being taken, she's also going with them. And what's queerer than that? She's an iconic queer deliverer. I mean, her truck, her truck, her truck. I mean, she is an icon really. She probably doesn't even know it. Yeah. Well, when, when she does leave, I mean, I'm like, but your truck is so cool. I don't know. You should have stayed behind for that. And yeah, absolutely. That truck's doing a lot of work for you. I think it's kind of radical, in fact, that she doesn't end up like, okay, how different would this movie be if the last scene was a wedding with her and Kirk? Oh, God, it would suck. It's so cool that instead she's just like on to do her own thing. And there's this sense that she's like still independent or whatever, which like, I mean, in terms of trope conventions is so unusual. Like, yeah, she because he's like, he's like, I don't even have your number. She's like, that's fine. I know, right. And like, that is so powerful to see on screen. And he's like a powerful dude in the situation. She's like, I don't care. I got books to read. There's there's such a and she's not like, she's not saying no to him forever. Right? Her energy is daddy. We're going to talk about that. But like, that's she's got a she's got a lot of power in that moment, you know, when she's a little like kind of see you when I see you. And like, in general, like, she just seemed to be such an unusual character, you know, in the scheme of like, she's a scientist, it's the 80s, like, like, they're trying to get people to care about whales via major motion picture. Yeah, it's like a real time. Right, if there is a bad guy in this movie, it's that very last sequence where there is a whaling ship that is coming for the moment the humpbacks actually are in the open ocean. There is a whaling ship that is like on them. And the you know, the the spaceship has to get in the way of, I mean, there's that to just fantastic moment where they release the harpoon and it hits the cloaks. We loved a cloaked situation in the 80s. Like we were just dodging stuff left and right via cloaking. Yes. Yeah, that is the bad guy is is human is current human. Yes, yes. And and it's very brief and it's right at the end and it's kind of like, and then they, you know, they're able to have that great moment where the Klingon ship on cloaks itself in front of the whaling ship. And you have the scale of the little boat and the giant spaceship and stuff. I think that those shots for me are just like, I love them every time I see them because they're just like it's, it was so funny to me as a little kid and it like didn't change, you know, if anything like, as an adult, I understand stuff like, why would a nuclear vessels joke be funny? You know, I definitely didn't understand any of that. And and it's the kind of thing where I don't know, they were really making a movie for lots of levels of people who are in the room and like the audience feels very broad for this. And then, yeah, it's a pretty like heavy handed, like, you know, save the whales kind of message. And I guess I was thinking this morning, I was like, I guess it's in that category of like, I think of other ones from this time, roughly of like, fern gully, free willy, captain planet in a couple years, right. So there's this like, you know, a real like, hey, we got to like not mess up the planet becomes a sort of thing that you can, especially say to kids in media. And I feel like in the 90s, a lot of TV, just a lot of it was focused around like, hey, you know, like this is actually really important. And this movie to me is just like, it is a bit heavy handed. But on another level, it's so fun to watch that like, I don't know, like I, I appreciate that it probably did succeed in changing how people felt in terms of like the whales or whatever. Yeah, or like being like probably being the first the first piece of media or first, first engagement, a lot of people had with the idea that it's like, we're constantly looking for space sort of outside of ourselves. Whereas there is like an entire the planet, generally, of course, but then in the ocean, like, it's like, you have all of the alien life that like we're looking for elsewhere and we treat it horribly. Right. And the implication, I mean, I think the, I don't know, is this a joke? The irony that the overarching conceit of the movie is this probe has showed up wanting to communicate with the highest intelligence on earth. Right. It goes to the whales. It's showed up in its speaking whale. Yeah. And like humans are being knocked out by mere virtue of that act of communication, right. And I think that's just so fun. Is it is it is really saying something about like, hey, we have this era and this culture that really acts like, you know, humankind is on top and like animals are below or whatever. And in this movie, that's not the actual balance of power. Like, if anything, there's a real sense of like, no, these whales or like, you know, other beings in general, especially something that intelligent or like, actually, like, very important. And it kind of, you know, it's doing this metaphor with the probe. But like, I think as a as a child, especially, I remember just being like horrified by the harpooning scene. I remember thinking it was just like the most evil thing I'd ever seen. And I was like, how could anyone do this as their job? You know, like, how could you go out there in a boat and like kill whales as your job? And like, it was really like incomprehensible to me that someone could do that. And I'm, I mean, it's definitely just this movie that like made me feel that way. Sure. Yeah. And I mean, it posits this, the important question, which is not even just like, you know, like we, the hubris of humanity is to think that like, we are the most important and and our singular human intelligence is like more intelligent than all other intelligences. And even just the answer to that question, she says to her colleague at some point, where she's like, I don't know about you, but like, I don't like scale the intelligence of other beings like care about them, which is like really important. But yeah, but then like, even to go, well, he to whales are more intelligent. It's like, it's still doing this thing where we like create like the import of a singular intelligence. And we don't see that it's like, our entire ecosystem is important. Yeah. And like, we are unfortunately our way of, of existence and sort of the way that we have embraced or like, I shouldn't even say we the way that like, the people, the like wealth hoarders in charge have embraced and sort of like helped set like, like push forward and continue to perpetuate is one that is like inherently against the ecosystem itself. Yeah. And, and like, I'm such a like, Nickelodeon activism kid where they were like, you know, hold on those. I'm like, I was like, that's important. And, you know, like, that's how I like learned about things. It's like, it's like, you know, did, did someone who was actively getting slimed tell me it was an important thing. And then, you know, and I like really feel strongly, like media was doing such an interesting thing at this time, while also it was like crushing unions. And, you know, like being like, Hey, let's not look at the economic structure at all. But like, but you know, what's important whales whales are important. Let's focus on that. Right. There's that greenwashing vibe. I think like hindsight, it doesn't necessarily like have, you know, like if you were to make a movie now where like the big point was, Hey, everyone, let's save the whales. Like, I don't know if it would like hit right. Like, I think that like, but then I do have this sense, like, I've been rewatching Mad Men. I don't know. It's the only thing that makes me feel okay lately. And there's that one iconic scene where like, they do a roadside picnic and then they just like, like they flap their pick. Oh, yeah, my favorite. The trash just goes all over the lawn. They just get in their Cadillac and drive on. And I was, I was like, Oh, right. Like that kind of scene is why this show is so fun to watch is because we're kind of, I love that. We're playing that game of like, right, norms change, you know, like the way that like people think it's okay to behave in terms of like the environment around them has shifted, right? Like since the fifties or sixties or whatever, right? Like, and there's this sense that it's even shifted now, based, you know, compared to like the eighties or whatever. But like, yeah, like overall, like has our lesson been learned or anything? Like, I don't, I don't know. I think in general, like Star Trek does have that, and I'm not going to pretend to be an expert and no Star Trek fans get mad at me. They will. But it has that. It has that progressivism and its DNA to some extent, like there is always, there's, there's a history of inclusivity. There's a history of firsts. There's a history of like, especially with the old show, even that original cast and like the diversity represented therein was unusual, right? For its time. And like, there's, there's an extent to which like, that show, and I mean, for me, I, I love TNG and I will like rewatch that whole series at the drop of a hat. I love it so much. And like, it's similarly like, is it perfect? Absolutely not. But like, it is representing a vision of the future that is, you know, it's not like Utopian per se, but there is a more positive sort of like gaze on the whole thing. It's like, oh, what if we actually like as a planet stopped doing war eventually, you know, like, and they've sort of like built some things like that into that mythos of like, where that kind of series takes place. It's not, you know, I don't want to pretend to encapsulate everything here. It's not perfect or anything, but it's like, the show's always, I mean, and we can, you know, the easy contrast is Star Wars, which I think like, does less of that Star Trek, for example, and this movie is such an example of it. Basically, there's no fighting and guns in this movie. Like, how unusual is that? When Kurt brings out a gun and people are like, is that a gun? There's just general like, there's, there's like no very little violence, like other than that harpooning scene toward the end, but it's like, it's an old timey looking harpoon kind of, it's like very not scary. The and like the most violent quote unquote thing that happens in the movie is like, in theory, the probe itself has messed earth up a lot in arriving and all the communications and everything, but like, we have the sense that the probe isn't mean, you know, the probe is just sort of big and like powerful. And so like, there is this like lack of like, we can't really blame it, even though like in theory, it's ending all, it's like all of earth, you know, it's completely over. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that thing is disrupting ions. That's what I know it's doing. And I want to, I want to be clear too, like my shade toward corporate messaging is not towards this movie. And I absolutely like understand kind of like the Rodden, Roddenberry DNA and how that all comes through. But yeah, it is eventually like we do get a lot of like messaging for kids. And it's really just like, please for the love of God, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. Like that's because like, you know, at the end of the day, we are also responsible for the whale shenanigans. And, you know, I'll talk to people, it's funny, I, my real old man moments come these days where I talk to people under 30 and I'm like, I don't think you understand that like, we didn't talk publicly and collectively about like, wealth inequality until like 15 years ago. Like that wasn't a thing that would be talked about on the news until very recently, we talked about things broadly. We were talking about, we were talking about things in a specific manner, unfortunately. I also love the entire, and this was like more of, this is more of where the comedy lives where when they do go to the hospital, and and McCoy bones bones McCoy is is is observing all of like the present, like, like, this this time in like 1987 or whatever, probably like the height of medical technologies. And he's like, I his his affect generally always furious because he's just like angry that we're living in the mid-age, the middle ages. This is yeah, that bit where he hears the woman of her, you know, dialysis or whatever, her, you know, her kidney failure, like he just sort of is strolling through the hospital and kind of roasting the technology of the time and like, you're like fixing people's lives. And there's like miracles happening. And like, it's so funny. And you're right. Like he is just and I this is where I admit, like, I've never watched the original series. Like, like, I so I, you know, it's like, I kind of know this stereotype of who the characters are, like almost just from like the zeitgeist or whatever. Yeah, damn it, Jim. I'm a doctor, not a whatever the thing is. Yeah. So it's like, my answer is yes. But also like, yeah, my main interpret my main like the the information that has like created my sense of McCoy is mostly this movie and like, God, he's great. And he's so dry. I mean, he is just the driest. And he's just like absolutely fed up with everyone around him in every moment. And like, God, it's just a delight to watch. And he's, you know, performing small miracles and they break check off out of the hospital. And like, I think in general, it's that it's that sense of play of like, hey, imagine a future where the medical system is so much better, or like technology is so much better that a doctor would just like laugh at you for what you think is the height of everything right now. And just the humility of that almost like, you know, to someone in the future, everything we do looks very, very, very ridiculous and outdated. And I think that that at this moment in particular is so important, because like, I remember that I don't remember 1980s, I was like, four, but like, I'm not like, I'm not like, I remember it like, like it was yesterday. But I certainly remember that element, especially a pre 9 11 element of the United States, that that fetishized so intensely, how top of the line modern we are right now, right, and never considers that like our right now in 100 years is going to be seen as backwards. And in fact, 25 years, like will be seen as backwards. And that is that's like an important thing to keep in mind when it comes to, you know, because I think that there is there is there's a there's an arresting for the negative, you know, sort of in a negative way, elements to fetishizing the present, because if you're not considering the past and future as part of that, you're not considering like what like growth could possibly look like outside of just making more of the present. Isn't that I feel like that's what the movie's all about, you know, yeah, and it is I mean, it ends on such a fundamentally hopeful note. They literally succeed in bringing whales back to earth, not just one assumes to solve this probe issue. But like whales are back. And I think there's always like, right, like there's this. There's that very kind of like, I don't even know, like sitcom scene at the end, where they all get out of the spaceship that's just crashed. And it's in the bay. And they're all like having a little splash fight in the bay all together. All of these old people, like cocoon, yeah, they're just like splashing. I grew up next to this bay. You do not splish splash. This is like nasty brackish water. Like I just like, I cannot as a child, like you'd go to the ocean, you go to the ocean, right? That's one thing. But like playing in the bay, I don't know, maybe someone does it, but it's just not where my mind would ever go. And so I think there is just for me, there's always like a couple of moments that as a Bay Area person make me laugh in this movie. And that's definitely one of them where I'm like, I don't know. Is it U-Hurrah or U-Hurrah? I think it's U-Hurrah. But I'm not sure. U-Hurrah was doing God's work in that scene. Like everyone is like splashing and she's so joyful. Just like, like getting water everywhere. Like close your mouths. I mean, it's- That's the Bay. You can only imagine that the actors are having a lot of fun. I think that that's one of the things that I just can't help but, you know, you just sense that like these folks were having fun making this thing. And you know, and maybe it's all just a show, but like there's an extent to which like, yeah, I um, you can't help but end this movie feeling like, well, that worked out. Like, you know, it's got such a hopeful note, you know, like it's it's it's so uplifting. Like they solved everything and whales are back and you know, we're all gonna have a splash fight. It's just like it's such a positive movie. I know I annoy people at this point with expressing any frustration with the Marvel franchise, but I lost I lost steam like 15 years ago. But um, are there any? I guess like, it doesn't have to be a Marvel movie, but are there any like superhero movies that do this approach where it's like, we're not trying to we're not trying to get a villain who's going to end all of humanity. We're just trying to like, figure out like how to work together in some way because like, I really like this as as an adversary. It's like, we have like actually like a large systems problem to work out and like- ecological devastation. Yes. Right. In a way, it's a movie about climate change. Like on some level, it's water world, right? Like it's another of that where it's sort of saying like, hey, everyone, if you keep acting, I mean, I guess also like plan of the Apes the original one or whatever, like if you keep acting like you are, you're going to wind up in a bad place. Like I think that that sense of like, yes, it's like the height of Reaganism. It's all about like America's toughest and best or whatever, but we all know that's a veneer and there's actually a lot of like something else going on. And like the way that this movie is making fun of like, yeah, you know, politics, geopolitics, stuff with the USSR, it's making fun of like kind of these like contemporary things like the reference to money being over, like that would be a very kind of like, who kind of moment, but it's a joke and like how it's able to sort of take on all this gnarly stuff of its own present, but it's, it's, you know, at the same time engaged in this kind of like pretty lighthearted story or whatever. So we're not sitting there going, oh, wow, it's a lecture about like how bad the future is or whatever. Like it's, you know, it's, it's so imminently approachable even as it's, it's taking on like, yes, this big picture, you have to all work together to try to save this planet kind of message that I don't know, you know, at the time, I think it would have been more novel. I mean, is my sense and like, I was born in 87. So for me, like this, this movie, it really does look like, yeah, like it looks like life itself or something. Like it has that, it was really what things looked like back then and all the details and the wrist watch or whatever. It's just like, it's all so of a time in a way that just feels so like, yeah, wonderful to revisit. Oh, in terms of, in terms of her name, Nichelle, Nichelle Nichols' part, the, yeah, Uhura or like, I think that's one of those things where Star Trek fans can get really mad at me and I can just be really honest that I'm like, totally not that level of fan. Yeah, we don't know everything. Yeah, that's not what we're here for. No, and I, I will, I'll be like the first to admit, I like don't really know the original property as well these days, especially compared to like the Picard cast. Because once I sort of transplanted my like soul onto loving the Picard era cast, it's those are the ones who I think I know much, much better. But yeah, like if, if I say like Star Trek things that are incorrect, like I hope people will just take it easy on me. Like to me, I didn't even really know what the name of this movie was forever. I just called it the Wales movie, you know, like I didn't ever like know it was the voyage home or whatever. Like that, it barely occurred to me that it was actually, it had like an actual name. Oh, we didn't talk about the amazing pizza restaurant moment. Where he goes on and like a date, you know, and they're in this very like San Francisco bistro having like pizza or whatever. And he's ordering for her. And there's just like, or there's just such a vibe to it. I think in general, like, it's so exciting when like a movie like this feels like a throwback in time and you can really visit it. I mean, that's what it's doing too, as it is a time travel movie. It is a sort of like, yeah, the time travel movie for them. And that is a time travel movie for us, which is great. Yeah, a work of nostalgia of such, you know, it's just, it's so fun to see also just Kirk's ease with the past, like the sense that like you can toss this man severely into a different century and he just like orders a beer. He uses slang immediately. Yeah. So that my favorite part of that scene and the restaurant is twofold is one is the lead up to it where they're in the truck and trying to explain what's going on. And then Kirk just, you know, with full of swagger is like, I think we'd all feel better if we talked about this over and then she's like, do you like Italian? And the most hilarious exchange in the whole movie, which I won't even try to emulate because it requires just like timing and the charisma of all people involved is the like, the him and Spock fumbling to figure out how to answer whether or not they like Italian going back and forth with no, yes, no, yes. And he's like, no, he's like, and you like Italian too. It's so fucking funny. And then, and then the like the fact that like, because as we pointed out already earlier in the movie, they don't fully understand like what the present relationship with money is. So Kirk doesn't have money to cover the day. The little bit where, you know, she asked somewhere he grew up and he grew up in Iowa, you know, that's that's the it's it's true, right? Of Kirk, right? That he's from Iowa. It's one of those things in the text of the show. And it made me remember I used to live in Iowa and there is in Riverside, Iowa, which is a random little tiny town or whatever, I think I'm saying the right name. There's a plaque and it says future birthplace of Captain James Kirk. Yeah. And it's like one of those like when you're bored and living in Iowa for years, you can drive a couple of hours to go visit this thing. And I think I went at one point. That's probably the trickiest thing that I've ever done. That's beautiful. Yeah, he says she's like, well, let me guess, like your farm boy, who's like, you know, he's like, I worked in a farm, but no, I was bored in Iowa, but I work in space, which is like a really incredible. I was just going to say that it's very funny to me, another like unconventional move that this movie makes is it like Kirk and Spock really do not hide very much the truth of what is going on. The moment she starts digging, they're just like, yeah, you know, we're from space, like he's like basically inviting her onto the spaceship. Like there's an amount of like he's just like in most other movies, you could imagine that someone in his position would invent some very big lie and like have a big deceit or whatever, but he doesn't really deceive her. He's pretty straightforward. He like doesn't really answer her questions for quite a while. He stays pretty cagey at first, but like eventually he just has her onto the spaceship. Yeah, he's like, this is going to be very impressive, which is important to me. Such a coxman. He is, I can't, I can't believe this character. I can't wait to watch more Star Trek media so I can just see him be in the world. And it's funny, like, do you have any sense this will immediately infuriate people that I don't know the sensor, but like what was the vibe where Shatner, Shatner's captain who is Shatner as captain, you know, when we get a new series, we get Captain Picard who is played by what's Patrick Stewart. Obviously a much different vibe, like a much different relationship with, you know, macho heterosexuality. How are people feeling? Do you know how people felt about that transition? Because I imagine that that was perplexing to people. I think nerds are going to know there's some property where they are both in it, right? Generations. And so I don't know if I've seen that. And this is where it's like, yeah, I didn't watch Next Generation back in the day. And so I definitely, because long story, I'm from a tiny town. We didn't have cable TV. So in general, my sense of what media was, I didn't know the glories of MTV and Nickelodeon and all this stuff. Like that was exciting stuff that other people had. And, you know, I was pretty basic cable. And so the, or not even five channels. And so the sense of like, yeah, I don't know the nuances of how people felt back then. I will say, I have the weird Al lyric in my mind. The only question I ever thought was hard is, do I like Kirk or do I like Picard? From white and nerdy. I think there is an amount of like, I'm sure people have their favorites. And I will be honest, I am a hundred percent Picard in that kind of, in the, if that's the duality. And I don't know what it is. It's, he does a different vision of what like a positive white guy leader could be. And it's a very, you know, kind of learned and pretty like good at controlling his emotions or whatever. Like he's a very different vision of that than Kirk, who's much more like, you know, in his feelings and like, there's a lot of personality there and like those kinds of things. So to me, it is a false binary sort of because I'm like, they both work. They both are, you know, wonderful kind of depictions of like, what a leader, you know, could be. And I know the Picard performance much better, but in terms of like, you really watch him over and over kind of wind up in these compromised positions in terms of, you know, whatever his own ethics and he has to work through it and stuff. And it's like kind of heady, but at the end of the day, it's like a pretty kind of campy show, you know, it's the stakes are pretty low. But yeah, I, I imagine for Patrick Stewart, it was a very strange, the, the, the TNG pilot is sort of famously not very good. It's one of those. Like every time I try to watch the TNG pilot, I'm always like, Oh God, I forgot how bad this thing is. Like, and I love the rest of the series. So I mean, I think for Picard and a lot of the rest of those actors in that cast, like it took a moment, but like, once that thing hits its stride and you have like LeVar Burton, you've whoopie Goldberg, you've all these amazing people on that show. It's, it's, it's one of those just like, I can put on any episode of TNG and I will probably just feel happy, you know, like it is a real monster of the week show. They fly around the spaceship, they land on some new planet that looks like LA and they have some plot and like maybe, you know, there's a message or something and it's gosh, you know, and sometimes it gets a little more, I don't know, thinky and sometimes it's a little more boom, boom, chute, chute. And in general, like it just always goes down so easy. So I think for me, like, yeah, there's no, no comparison there. But I mean, I think I look at this character, I mean, I obviously assume I've had awareness of my entire life. But I mean, I think the thing, at least the character as portrayed in this movie, I find charming and also do not like, like if I were in a room with him, I'd be like, this guy needs to shut the fuck up. But like, but he, but he's also charming, which is weird. He kind of is like, like before Trump was in, was in power. Like you're like, yeah, totally. You're like, this is this guy's a buffoon, but he's charming. We shouldn't elect him to power. Like that's how I feel about this character. Like, I don't know what it says about me other than I'm pro like neurodivergent myself that like, I always identified with Spock most in this movie. And that just continues. Like I, he's the only character who as I for some reason watch him on screen, I'm like, yeah, he makes sense to me, everything he does, you know, makes sense in his pursuit of understanding what everyone else is doing and like why they're doing it. And like how, like, how important it is for him to do the same thing is really interesting. One of the Star Trek, I think like things, at least to my mind, is that it's sort of about neurodiversity in the sense of like, you know, TNG has like data as a character who's a robot or whatever, and he's learning to be human. There's another character is an empath. And there's always just like the series seems to always have that kind of conversation of like, how do we all relate? Even though some people don't feel the things that others do. And some people feel some stuff really strongly or whatever. And like, that always feels like to me kind of one of those, it's modeling something for us in terms of like, yeah, like people move through the world with different senses of how much, you know, what they're saying is impacting others, for example. And like, I don't know that the vocabulary of neurodiversity was being used per se in like the sixties is a lot alone the eighties. But like that sense of we're showing, you know, even between Kirk and Spock, we're showing something, you know, we're showing how two very different kinds of like, you know, humans slash, you know, humans slash Vulcans can relate to each other, right? Like, there's that sense of like, they are very different people. And we have to kind of like, watch all of these very different personalities, like navigate a problem together, you know, like, that's always like the part of it, like they're all very unified in the mission, you know, and Kirk is having a hard time that is like friend doesn't remember to call him by his first name. He's has a hard worst time with that, I think, than learning just this moment that his son died. There's there's this sense that he, yeah, I that's the only thing that as I rewatch this movie, I'm like, it's weird that he doesn't have a single moment of seeming to turn back to that grief. But I mean, maybe he's just I don't want to judge someone else's grief. Maybe he's just he doesn't consider it doesn't even blink in a longer way than other blinks. He's on this adventure. He's put it out of his mind, you know, he's like, that's interesting. He's traveling through time to save all of earth. Like he's busy, you know, he's looking to bed Andy's mom from Child's Point. Picking up this scientist. That is a choice. Like that is a real choice that they're like, he's not concerned. Okay, well, we know that Kirk was a father. He is always a father. I don't mean that's a terrible way to put it. We know that Kirk is a father of a of a downed war hero. Who in your view is the daddy of Star Trek for the voyage home? That's what it's called. Yeah, right. I think so. Yeah, hopefully we know the name of this movie. Who's the daddy? It does. It's the one with the whales. The one with the whales. Okay, who's the daddy? I thought about this. Of course. My outside of the box answer is the probe. I feel like the biggest warshark test of the day. The probe shows up and it's just like absolutely in control, right? It takes over the entire thing. And then when it's done, it just moves on and we don't get, you know, in as much as there's not really a lot of personality coming off the thing. I mean, it is such a power play in general. And it what it wanted to talk to whales for like two seconds, what they talk about, we have no idea. And it just continues. It's like you could. Yeah. You up. How is it down there? It's a remarkable story on some level. But yeah, I think I think like that's that's my my real gut answer is is one, you know, like the obvious answer would be Kirk, in part because he is very swaggery in this movie, but also he literally is a father who's in mourning or whatever. But like, like we were saying, it doesn't play. He doesn't have any sense in the in the sort of daddy sense. Like he doesn't, if anything, he is to me a little bit of the Anjanu in this movie. Oh, wow. You know what I mean? Yes, I do. But that's great. I love to hear it. Because he's charming and he's beautiful. And he's kind of, you know what I mean? He's doing this thing. You're right. Yeah, you're totally right. And and he has more like, I think like we were saying, like the sort of rom-com ending feels flipped in terms of like, he's the one who's sort of grasping at her toward the end, whereas in traditional rom-com media, we would expect the opposite, you know, postures or whatever. She has much more daddy energy than he does in terms of like, you know, she can kind of do her own thing, take her leave it, hop, you know, a few centuries forward, like we were saying, what's your answer? It's the same. I mean, it's her. Like it's crazy. It's just her. There's no way it's not her. Like she, again, she's like, get me off this planet, which is like, just incredible. She cares about the whales entirely. She drives that truck. She is, she loves an underdog, which is really great. So like, and she says it kind of like repeatedly. She thinks that these guys are crazy, but not in the way that they're presenting and still shows up for them in a great way. Like I, I love this character. Like I knew I was going to like the movie and I was surprised by how much I actually loved the movie. Like minute for minute, it's an incredibly entertaining movie. But then on top of that, to have this character who is like a great character, makes like great decisions, great choices and is, is a delight, is kind of a delight to be around. And it's the mom from seventh heaven. What's the characters? Like that's the thing I can't even, I don't even remember her name. That is funny. Gillian Taylor, Gillian Taylor, maybe Gillian. Gillian. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I do have a little, a little fun Wikipedia nugget to read about this character. Dr. Taylor. Yeah. Which is unbelievable. Catherine Hicks plays Gillian Taylor, a Scientologist on 20th century Earth. During production, a rumor circulated that the part had been created after Shatner demanded a love interest, which if that is the case, the way that they make a play out is even funny. Kind of fascinating. Yeah. A regular aspect of the television series that was absent from the first three films. He's like, yeah, why is he not getting any. So writer Nicholas Meyer denied this, saying that the inspiration from Taylor came from a biologist featured in National Geographic documentary about whales. Nimoy himself chose Hicks after inviting her to lunch with Shatner in witnessing the chemistry between the two. Then this is the, this is the part that will blow minds out of brains. The role was originally written for Eddie Murphy as an, as an astrophysicist at Berkeley, which is like very gold bloom in Independence Day. What would this movie be? What would this fast talking Eddie Murphy as astrophysicist? It was like, whoa. Amazing. There's a sliding doors reality. Like that would be amazing. I mean, not, I love this movie and there is the, you know, the fiction of it of like, oh, they have whales and captivity in Sausalito. Like, you know, they're, that, that doesn't exist. Right. Like just to say that, like, it's clear to, it's clear to make clear that some of the, the representations of whale science facilities in this movie are embellished. Yeah, there's like, but it was cool. They shot at the real, as I recall, at the real Monterey Bay Aquarium, which I love. And again, I think was an example of why I didn't necessarily know if this movie was reality or not, you know, kind of to some degree, because these were like such familiar locations, you know, like Golden Gate Park where the spaceship is cloaked the whole time. Like these are, was that a budget issue? Were they like, we're not going to ship? The, the, the funniest thing to me, honestly, is the two New York, like, trash collectors. They're like, hey, I was your wife or whatever, you know, then they get like blown around by the spaceship trash. And it's like so like, I was like, they really couldn't cast somebody who didn't have like a thick Brooklyn accent. It was so jarring. I was like, are we in a different place? I was like, no, we're in San Francisco. That's amazing. Yeah. We didn't mention, and I don't know, we want to get into it because it doesn't matter, but the, we didn't mention that this movie actually has like a dialogue with itself about captivity. Where, you know, where Spock is like, we're no better for keeping these whales captive. And then the question is what's going to happen to the whales once they let the whales go? And she's like, the whales are going to go out and be under the same threat that all the other whales are going to be. And then they're like, there, this, it does attempt to not come to conclusions, but to ask questions about captivity. And then they just get beamed, beamed to the future. So, right. Right. No, but there is, I think in general, a sort of like permission question, right? Like who is allowed to do what, you know, to these other beings? And I think it is a way, like it is a way of inviting the contemporary viewer, especially back then to go like, Hey, have you thought about, like what we're doing to this planet? Or have you thought about the ramifications of like, maybe your own choices or whatever? Like, it does feel like it is, it's opening that question up in a really like, yeah, I don't know, like, like soapboxy way. And for some reason, it still works to me. Like it could feel like such a almost boring message. But like, for some reason, like the way it's delivered here with so much heart, it just feels like, yes, it's a little undeniable to me. I think the only thing I was going to add about Star Trek, when you asked that, Oh please. My one like observation is like Star Trek works best when you have a good combination of like, hot and weird people, you know, like it is a very like, they want some hot people, some weird people, you know, and they really want to let like, everyone kind of have, but there's always a little bit of a like, and they have to look really good too, you know, like there is always a little bit of that. And like, the, the, the Starfleet Academy show that just got canceled after they haven't aired the second season yet, but they did air the first one. It's very queer. And, you know, it's a bummer that they've canceled it, because I think it would have been a great series to actually let go on for a while. But they really did. I was, one of the things I thought was great about this new series was they nailed that combination of like, queer and hot casting, like they really have like, you know, younger folks who are like super good looking, and they can put them on screen and let them have a love plot or whatever. And then there's like, you know, they got Paul Giamatti as a recurring bad guy, you know, like there's like, and he's having the time of his life. I mean, it's very, very clear. That's what we love to see. I would say there is a throwback to this Wales movie in the new Starfleet Academy. There's an episode where there's like a pretty heavy-handed Wales thing. And the whole thing, you know, is set in that familiar Southern Marin kind of geography. And so there is to me a little bit of a, you know, they, they nodded at this movie, at least to my mind in the new series. And I thought that was cool because I'm like, I can't be alone in having nostalgia for this thing. I think there were lots of us who, yeah. I think when I posted about it and everyone's like, that's the best one. Like, every, everyone's like, this movie rules. Like, people have a fucking straight up positive feelings for this movie. Yes. And I think some, my guess is Star Trek people like other Star Trek movies more. Like, I know that Raviv Khan is one of those ones. Yeah, that's the one that like people talk about as like a great sequel. It's like good vibe. Yeah. There's a, there's a bit, I was rewatching a Seinfeld episode recently where he and George are just having a kind of meta debate about whether like Search for Spock or Raviv Khan is better or whatever. And there's a con moment and like, you know, so I think it's like, those are maybe more iconic in some way, but I feel like this, the fourth movie is so clearly like the standout. But it's beautiful. Can I make a, can I make a request? Yes. Would you come back for a bonus episode where you, where you bring three of your favorite next generation episodes and you introduce me to next generation? I'd be so delighted. Yes. Because I'm, I'm, I'm so delighted by this conversation. And I think that it would be nice to use it to potentially get me hooked on something that's very bad for me. No, no, no. It's, I was going to say next generation is like mental health care. It's so nice. It's great news. It is. It's so nice. Yeah. There's a counselor on the ship you can talk to and she's so nice. So important. I just started rewatching ER and I feel like that's not going to be good for my mental health. Anyway, Sandy, how can people find you out in the world if you want them to do that? Yes, I do. I would love if folks would subscribe to my newsletter, which is called What's Helping Today. And it's based on Beehive. So if you search What's Helping Today, you can usually find it, but it's, it's a newsletter that's focused on self care. I'm a journalist who, yeah, I mostly write about mental health and I mostly am focused on the question of how do we keep going despite the everything that we have going on. So what's helping today is my free newsletter. And then you can also find me at sandyernisallon.com. And yeah, I write lots of places and I sometimes talk on podcasts such as right now. Beautiful. Well, thank you so much for being here for exposing me to this and for the future exposing me to the next generation. I really appreciate it. Wow. My head is just already deciding like, oh my gosh, which TIG episode? Yeah, what a task. I took three episodes. Oh my god. There are like 20 billion of them. Because they covered some ground. We appreciate it. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for doing this. Have a great day. All right, everybody. That's it for this week's episode of You Are Good, a feelings podcast about movies. Thanks to Sandy Ernest Allen for being here. We had a great time with you, Sandy. Thanks to y'all for listening to the show. Thanks to Fresh Lesh for providing the beats that make our episodes sound so sweet. We appreciate you, Lesh. Thanks to y'all who are supporting us on Patreon and Apple Podcast subscriptions. Don't forget we stave off the dread by showing up, getting involved in our communities. Don't forget that you, my friend, are good. Thanks so much for being here. We appreciate y'all. I think that's all you need to know before we ride off into the sunset here for the week. Check out this month's bonus episode about Star Trek the next generation. Again, with Sandy Ernest Allen. All right. We did it. I think we did it, right? We did it. We did it.