Ep 1269 | The Robertsons Turn a Middle-School Dance Into a Prayer Breakthrough

I am unashamed. What about you? And we are now C.S. Lewis experts, I would say. Al, do you feel like an expert? I do not. I do not feel like I'm an expert, but I am learning to appreciate the philosophical ways of Dr. Lewis, but also of John Luke and you, Zach, the different ways you view things. And so the whole time I've been taking these courses, anytime I can understand something, I always take joy in knowing that y'all are loving. But I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around. And Chris and I are totally in the same camp. However, Lecture 5 was the most accessible for those like us, I would say. Yes, yes. This is a really good one. I struggle with the last one, but this one spoke to me because it's about prayer in the Bible, which I spend a lot of time talking about. And it started out being a relatable—like you talked about, Lecture 4 started out a little. way above our heads, but Lecture 5 started out talking about prayer and kind of what led to Lewis's intensified prayer, but also what led him to abandon it. And I feel like the reasons for both were relatable for things we kind of go through. So yeah, I thought the way Lecture 5 started was really interesting. What's interesting about this episode was that Jill and I, we went to London last year for a conference on, ironically, it was on Western civilization. I think, Christian, you were there. Zach, you know I was there. You were there. We had dinner. I think you were there. Well, it just hit me as I was saying. We were there like the whole time together. Yeah. I seem to remember some hulking figure that sat there by us. Was it a bodyguard or was it Christian? And we had the same reaction. Every lecture, I was like, what do they talk about? And you were like, this is the greatest thing ever. He's like the kid in the candy store. And you're like, I want to go somewhere and do something. It was fun. It was good. It was a great conference. Well, Jill and I said an extra few days. I mean, when you're in Rome, when in London, when in Europe, if you're flying over there, it's a, what, 10-hour flight. So you're packing in a few more days. I'm the same way, Zach, because I travel for a living. But, I mean, if I'm going to go that far, we're not going to turn around. Because, Dad, we'd go someplace really cool, and Dad would be like, let's get back today. And I'd be like, Dad, we've come all this way. We're right here in Buffalo. Can we not go look at Niagara Falls? No. I've seen water. Well, I was going to say, if we're going to spend the money to come over here, more importantly, we're going to spend 10 hours on a plane, which is brutal. And I'm going to stay a few more days. So we did the conference, which was about two and a half days in London. And then we went to Oxford, which is where C.S. Lewis taught and where a lot of this story takes place in Oxford, England. And so we spent some time in Oxford. We were able to go to the kilns, which is where his house is. And we did the tour of that. And then we ended up just after that, we said, well, let's go see the church, which is all mentioned in this episode, the Holy Trinity Church, where he attended. And then we went to his grave site where he was buried. And what was interesting is, too, is that we met a guy when we were there at the grave site. And we started talking and I found out that he was also in the entertainment business. But he was a big C.S. Lewis fan and he was working on an animation project written by another gentleman who was mentioned. And I believe this podcast is the last one, George McDonald, who wrote The Princess and the Goblin. And so they're trying to bring back The Princess and the Goblin to the public domain now. But they're going to do an animation project on that. So it's kind of like a full circle moment for us. And then when I went out, so when I was going through this lecture, it was cool because I'd gone to a lot of these places and got to kind of sit in the story of Lewis for a little bit. So I found this episode to be extremely accessible too, maybe because I went there, but also I thought it was great. It's based on the, the book, a conversation with Malcolm, which was, did, did they not say, did he say it came out a year after? Yeah. So it was the last book ever published by C.S. Lewis. Letters to Malcolm. Letters to Malcolm. And was that – have you read that? Mm-hmm. So is it good? I mean what did you like about the book or what do you remember about it? Yeah, it's him – it's literally letters to Malcolm. So he's just kind of writing his thoughts as he's praying to his friend. And it's like we've been talking about with all these books. It's really not him teaching. It's just him contemplating prayer and his own prayer life and what he struggles with and what he doesn't. Yeah. Yeah. And so Malcolm is just like a fictional person then? Or is it like a real person? Or do you know? Is that part of it? I actually can't remember, but I think he's a real person. I think he's. No, he's not real. He's not real. And the only reason why I know that is because as you all were talking, I was on the Internet looking up who is Malcolm. And so according to the internet According to Chet GBT He's not a real identifiable person In the historical sense He's a literary device that he uses To make the point So it's kind of classic Lewis from what I'm getting now Okay right yeah now I'm looking at it Because we have the book right here Fictional letters between two characters But I want to say I read a Or watched something on it And it was based off his letters Oh to someone else It was based off his letters to someone else, but he wrote a fictional book about it. Which, by the way, that's one of the things I've enjoyed Dr. Ward doing because he's obviously a C.S. Lewis archive expert person. And he has – a lot of the stuff in these lectures are from letters that C.S. Lewis wrote to different people. And in fact, that's the core of the whole thing of prayer was you remember some letters he wrote to his brother where he basically was saying why he didn't like prayer. You know, and something about they weren't getting to the brother that had a wrong address. And so he said, yes, much like prayer. You're not sure it's being delivered to the person. You never get a reply or you never get a reply. And so, ironically, prayer is what led C.S. Lewis to atheism. And from his, when he was a young boy, because his mom had cancer and he was nine years old and he's praying for his mom. And just imagine, I mean, you know, I think back to my nine-year-old self, because now I'm looking at my grandchildren. That's most of their ages. Four of them are right there. and if their mom gets sick and you believe because our family believes in God, and then she dies. And then he said that he prayed for her to resurrect, which again, from what he had heard about Christianity was possible. I mean, Jesus was raised from the dead. Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead who was sick. And then that didn't happen. And then it says he got more earnest in his prayer, And then he got into these almost ritualized contemplated prayers, which then became so laborious that by the time the poor kid was 13 years old and he was obviously already brilliant in terms of his mind, it was just too much. And so he walked away from God because of prayer, which is ironic. Yeah. And he said it was like the greatest freedom he had felt. Yeah. Right. He said he finally felt free. Yeah. Being released from the burden of this. I thought this episode actually spoke to the human experience, particularly in religious circles. I know because I grew up like this, and I grew up thinking about prayer in this way. The whole lecture, really this whole book is centered on really what is prayer. But it's kind of bigger than that, too. I think it's through prayer and how he maybe accessed prayer in his early life versus his later life. Like it's he's showing really the whole story of what we've been talking about this whole time, about entering in and participating in the story of Christ versus just contemplation about Christ. And one of the things that he says about prayer was he said he found himself after his mom died. And he had gone through that that series that I just mentioned. And he says, I went in and was praying even more fervently, but his quest for an ever increasing sincerity was what drove him in his prayer. I got to be more and more sincere as opposed to enjoyment of Christ in prayer. And I I've struggled with that. I still struggle with like this never ending spiral, as he calls it in the lecture of, I want to be more and more sincere in what I'm doing, but it's almost crippling to the, if you let, if you let that quest, that quest can destroy you the quest for sincerity. Cause it's like at the end of the day, guess what? I actually do lack sincerity and it robs me of the ability to actually enjoy it. It's, it's not even like opposed to one another. I feel like we're talking about two different parallel, like two different universes, really. You know what I mean? And he had to escape one to get into the other. But I thought that was really interesting. Yeah, that was actually, I felt challenged by the opposite point he was making. Like he was making the point that he was, he felt burdened by prayer because it got so religious, which I thought about my own prayer life. And I thought, I don't think I'm religious enough. like I've especially this past year started reading liturgies and and thinking kind of about prayer more because I kind of got to the point where I was like I'm saying these prayers but it's really just like I'm like okay prayer time before after meal or at night and I'm just saying whatever comes to my mind in the moment but he had this line where he said like do we think what do I think about my prayers how do i think about my prayers before i pray them and i thought i almost never think about what i'm going to pray before i start praying yeah and i actually think that is a little unfair to god whatever he's supposed to be my greatest love and greatest joy yeah just to anyone else i'm talking to after this after we do this i'm going to call my dad and i'm thinking about what i'm going to tell him when i call him get on the phone you know just have a purpose i I have a purpose, yeah. It was challenging to me in my own life. Like, okay, I think I can put a little more effort into what I'm praying and thinking about. I don't think it's like one over the other, so to speak. Yeah, yeah. Because in the last podcast, you were talking about – you were talking about – you even said this. It's through the experience of Christ – I forgot how you said it – but that we can actually start to think about him. And in the last lecture, one of the points that I thought was a key point was that when you think about enjoyment versus contemplation, it's not versus really. Oh, yeah, yeah. It's that Lewis's point. It's not against contemplation. We do contemplate. I mean, read everything C.S. Lewis wrote. Obviously, this was a man who contemplated a lot. The point is that it's through the enjoyment of Christ and the participation with the Holy Spirit that you can truly contemplate the things of God. So contemplation is not – that we're not disregarding it. It's just secondary. And I think in prayer in the same way like whatever the dilemma that you have about prayer one is amplified by the other And we all experienced that prayer of the unanswered prayer thing We all experienced that I was thinking about a girl at our church whose mom died of cancer and someone prophesied that her mom would be healed and she wasn't. And that was devastating for her faith because she really believed. And that's not the first time I've, I know lots of people who have had those kinds of experiences. We said the prayer, We did the thing. They were prophesied. All the things that you think. And so in their mind, God didn't show up. God didn't listen. We've all experienced that side of it. And I think we've also experienced the part where we're going to somehow bootstrap this thing up. And in our own sincerity, we're going to contemplate ourselves into some sense of sincerity that's going to yield some result, too. And we end up just empty-handed. and then we're like, oh my gosh, what? Is God even listening? I mean, I have definitely felt that in my life. Well, we want you to take the course with us. It's free. Unashamed for Hillsdale.com is where you go to take it. You know, obviously spending as many years as I have in ministry and pastoring people, man, I've been in a lot of bedsides, a lot of hospitals, a lot of gravesides, in moments where people have this exact same struggle. and they're looking to you to give them some sort of guidance. And so one of the points that really spoke to me from the lecture that I have used, and I just did it out of, to be honest with you, out of just trying to find a place to help people not knowing what was going to happen. We're praying. It's not that we don't believe, but we're not sure. And it was this concept, he said, he called it the union of wills. And in other words, where the will of God and our will merge into this relationship. And I wrote down, I don't think he mentioned Romans 12, 1 and 2, but I wrote down Romans 12, 1 and 2, because that's kind of what Paul's bringing into that passage, right? That spiritual act of worship he talks about, that then we understand what God's good, perfect will is for us. but we're always struggling with that, right? Because we have our will and we have God's will and we're not always sure where that fits in. And so we're having this conversation really kind of not knowing exactly how this is going to play out. And so early on, when I would pray with families, I would say, I would be very honest, we're going to pray for healing. We're going to pray for complete recovery. That's our will. That's what we want. I mean, that's what this family is wanting around their mom, their dad, their sister, whoever. But we're also going to pray for God's will. And for us to be able, for you guys, our family here, our forever family, to be able to live in wherever we go and to be able to give him glory in that process. I always wanted to leave the door open that you may not, this person may not survive this particular thing. And if they don't, does that mean it's all for naught? Because again, like you heads that we're trying to not dash people's faith by saying it has to be this way. And so it wasn't like I was hedging my bets. It was more like saying we just don't know, so we're trusting in God to help us. And if this is the way, if God, if our will lines up with your will, then we're going to be even more joyful. If it doesn't, then we're going to have to figure out how to work through this. But we're all going to die. And I didn't say that, but I also know we're all going to die at some point. I mean, at some point, some disease does take you out or something or some accident or some tragedy. And so ultimately, it's do we have the relationship with God to know that our eternity has already begun when we became sons and daughters of the Almighty. So, I mean, that's why I always approach it with prayer in terms of those moments, because you're right. I've been with so many families that people walked away. They walked away from their faith like lewis did over what they took to be an unanswered prayer and smith helped me a lot my mentor because one of the things he taught about prayer he said we always just think of it as as yes or no but there's other answers that god gives us sometimes it's weight sometimes it's sometimes it's maybe and then he would go back and sometimes just no but yes because uh garth brooks prayed a prayer one time and uh that he'd marry his high school sweetheart and he He ran into her at a high school football game, and he was like, uh-oh. Sometimes God was not good to her, and he was thankful. He actually wrote a whole song about it. I thank God for unanswered prayers. With Lewis, though, what's interesting about his story in letters to Malcolm, too, is that it wasn't the unanswered prayer of his mother that pushed him away. I think this is key to the book. it was his own spiral of what he called the, well, it was Dr. Ward called it the quest for ever increasing sincerity instead of enjoyment. And the reason why that was what pushed him away is if you have to think about it like it's a spiral downward, I think he called it a cycle, but he said it really was a spiral. It wasn't like a bicycle. It was more like a spiral downward. And the way that you or I may have experienced this is that I'm going to posture myself into a position of prayer repetitively and rhythmically and liturgically, if you want to use that word. And in doing so, I'm trying to find a more sincere version of my approach to God. But the problem is, is the more sincere that I've become, all it really does is it illuminates how sincere that I'm not. And so you enter into that spiral, and then it becomes a weight on top of you. One of the things that I think is a danger of kind of this new movement back into liturgy and spiritual formation, which I'm a big fan of, but one of the dangers of it is that you can move into a form of what the Bible calls asceticism. Staticism in Colossians chapter two, it talks about this, but it's essentially that you're going to somehow deny yourself enough that you're going to somehow purify yourself through these rhythms and through through this discipline that you're going to somehow bootstrap yourself up in your own righteousness. And so you can imagine when you pile that on a person, you pile that on yourself like Lewis was doing. It just starts to just weigh you down. So when he finally was like, I'm done with this. Right. He felt like he broke through in that moment. I get that. It wasn't that Lewis was angry that God didn't answer the prayer. It was that Lewis was angry that God didn't think he himself was sincere enough in his prayers. He was angry with himself thinking, I'm not praying with enough faith, and that's why God's not answering my prayer. And that led him to have the breakdown. And that he must not be there. Yeah. But I do think that it was out of the pain that shaped him into that. Because that's a traumatic thing to lose your mom at any point in time, especially if you're a kid. I mean, obviously, Lewis was a pretty smart kid. He's having these thoughts at 9, 10, 11 years old. But he still was a kid who lost his mom. And that had to hurt deeply. Why don't you take the course with us? It's free at unashamedforhillsdale.com. And in this lecture, we're talking about prayer and eventually talking about the word of God as well and the relationship that it plays. Yeah, it said that if Lewis said if God did exist, that he believed God to be outside and in opposition to the cosmic arrangements, which I think is a deeper way of saying what's in opposition to cosmic arrangements. just like he doesn't care would that be without be yeah he's just he's kind of a deist approach yeah kind of a deist approach which is what the term i think this this when he said called him a theist but in the first few lectures that he said lewis was somewhat of a deist which god's wound it up and he's just kind of back you know watching the whole thing unfold but um but when when i think about uh actually we we're in a series on prayer at our church right now so i i love this lecture because he connects the prayer life. There's a core text that Ward and I guess Lewis, extrapolating from Lewis's work, connected this whole idea to, which is Romans 8. And I don't think he maybe went into some of the even further imagery of Romans 8 when it comes to the Garden of Eden that I've read and preached on last week. So it was weird that we're preaching prayer, and I went to Romans 8 because there's a passage in Romans 8 where Paul's like, the creation itself is groaning with eager expectations, waiting for the sons of God to be revealed. So the creation itself groans. And then Paul goes on to say that, and we are also groaning as creatures. And it says the spirit, when we don't know what to pray for and we just go to God, he says the spirit intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. Romans 8, 26, yeah. And I think that's the picture that he's talking about here is much more of a participatory picture. So when I was talking about this on Sunday, it hit me when I was studying it. I was like, why in the world would creation, why would creation groan with eager expectation waiting for the sons of God to be revealed? Why does creation want and desire the sons of God to be revealed? And the answer, it goes back to that tin biscuit top that he built the garden on. Remember, his brother built the garden on the tin plate, and that was the first time that he had experienced joy. And then at his conversion experience, it was in a garden. It was in a zoo that he equated to the garden. And so here's why, if you read the Bible correctly through a biblical eschatology, that the reason why that creation is wanting the sons of God to be revealed is because of Genesis 128. That it is the sons of Adam, the sons of God, who will cultivate the garden and expand it across the entire globe. The creation wants to be liberated from its bondage to decay, according to the Apostle Paul. that's going to happen through spirit-filled believers cultivating the earth and so that is the longing that is the expert that that's what's happening here so when we're we don't know what we want like we have this desire and we want it we're trying to pray and we're like i don't even know what to pray for i'm just like the holy spirit comes in and he intercedes and he takes that with groans that words can express a longing for creation for heaven and earth to be reunited this is what C.S. Lewis was getting at, and that's why the whole thing is like that thread of the garden, and Eden is in the entire story of his conversion. That makes sense. Yeah, and your point out of Romans 8 is really a strong one, and the way he put it was the Christian is an articulation of God's Word. So in essence, the way he put it was when we're indwelled by the Holy Spirit, and in prayer and in conversation, sometimes we as the human part of us doesn't always know how to communicate, but the Holy Spirit does. So in essence, it's God speaking to God because God lives in us because of the Holy Spirit. And when you think about it that way, man, that's very exciting about prayer. And Zach, we had this same kind of realization. We were talking about this on the other, Shane, when we were talking about it in 1 John. And I love this picture that it makes me want to talk more. kind of like what John Luke was talking about, it makes me want to have more conversations because that connects me more with the Holy Spirit living inside of me to be able to have these conversations with the creator of the cosmos. And I've always viewed it as, I guess, more conversational. I try to just open a conversation at the beginning of every day, sort of I do with Lisa I mean we greet each other every morning after we get up And that may be at different times or whatever but it always good morning How it been How you sleep last night It starts a conversation that won't end again until we tell each other good night. And so we have that ongoing conversation all day. It may be texts, it may be calls, it may be this, it may be dealing with something, but it may just be, what are you doing? I was just thinking about you. And so I've tried to approach my relationship with God the same way. I could be wrestling with something deep and heavy, and I could be with somebody that's in need of some specific prayer, but it could just be, you know, I was just thinking about something, and I just had that conversation just like we're talking. And it seems weird because I'm driving down the road, turning the radio off, and I just have a conversation. And then I turn the music back on, and we pick back up. So that's the way I try to view it, and maybe that's not quite reverent as it should be or could be more, because I'm like you, Dunlady. Well, I think I was kind of saying the point. I think it's both. I mean, I think it's you have a conversation with Christ because you are in a relationship, and I think that is the right way to think about it. I think on more the liturgical side, the benefit of that is if you're not praying. Yeah. If you're going from zero, I think it's easier to read a psalm or read a liturgy to get into the habit of it and kind of start from that view. And then as you get into the habit of praying, you start to build your conversation. But you also can just start talking. I think it's both. And I think if you go to one extreme – I think, Zach, that's to your point earlier – one extreme of the other is bad. You know, like if you're only doing it in this like religious sense of like this is the time I pray, this is the words I say, you lose the relationship. But then you can go all the way to the other side where you just never pray. You just don't do it. I mean I think a lot of people don't pray for that because they give up on it. But I was thinking of a good analogy would be, but I don't know, because of y'all's high school stories. But did y'all have dances at your high school? Because we did. But I know I don't know if OCS had dances. We did not. How do you did you go to the dances growing up? I wasn't much of a I was kind of a loner. We went to the party after the dance. We didn't go to the party. It was the after. the time your high school would be having dance you were there yeah i wasn't much of a dancer and you know i i like i'm kind of like christian i was more for what happened after yeah we were at the after party yeah y'all were sent i was we were i was in the middle of my prodigal wondering zach thanks for coming that up i was doing me and zach or me me and al are a lot of like y'all are just heathens i'll tell you why i was we came to christ we married great women we We had a tradition at our school that – and our school was small enough to where it was seventh grade all the way up to – we started in seventh grade if you want to go to dance. I think it was seventh grade. But the juniors in high school, they would actually sponsor every dance, and they would have a dance after every football game, home football game. And that was pretty much the whole time I grew up. And then whatever money collected went to pay for the prom. and so um you know when i was younger we would go to the dance and you know it's like the quintessential high school movie what what are the what are the young boys do with the dance they stand in the corner and they're like you know they're like they're watching the dance and they want to be involved in it but they're so into themselves that it's like an insecure like a scene out of stranger things you know that's right yeah yeah yeah and the reason why that's every movie about like kids growing up and coming of age is because like that is like we all have had some version of that experience whether it was a dance or banquet or whatever but i like the dance analogy because c.s lewis uses that uh that and that the the term was a perichoresis um but if you think about that when you think about his when he talks about the spiral or the cycle i forgot the term that he actually used it was called the cycle it was in a letter or something he wrote what was Do y'all remember the name of that? What the bird said earlier in the year? Well, that's where he came to in the end. But he had written a cycle of lyrics. Yeah, a cycle of lyrics, which was published in 1919. And so the idea is that he's in some kind of spiral. And that spiral is, again, in his prayer life, the ever-increasing quest for sincerity. So it's really a lot of self-examination. It's really a lot of self-evaluation, which can be a good thing, right? Self-introspection is a thing that we should all strive for and not become narcissists. But what was happening in his prayer life, it was just overwhelming him. And I equate that to the kid at the middle school dance. Like he's over there in the corner and he's watching the dance, but he's not in the dance. Why? Because he's like, well, what if I go over there and I ask Susie for a dance and she rejects me and I'm so scared? I've never kissed a girl before. I don't even know how to dance. What if I step on her toe? And all the insecurities that come in, right? Let's face it. What male on the planet is not one of their greatest fears is to be rejected, especially by a woman. Especially by the one you think is pretty, especially when you're in the seventh grade. And embarrass you in front of everybody else, which is the second greatest thing. I mean, I'm thinking of a name right now, particularly. I don't want to say her name out loud. Did you get rejected at a school dance? I'm sensing this happening. I'm sensing her. I went in. Well, I finally mustered up the screen to go ask this girl to dance. And she was actually. I don't know where the story was going. I'm in eighth grade, and she's actually my girlfriend, too. But we had never, like, talked before, you know. It was kind of like we liked each other. We said we were going out, which was the thing back then. Keep going. I went in for the kiss, and I wanted to kiss on the lips. But she did this move right here. And she even said, how about on the cheek? And I was like. That's still good. I mean, at the time, I felt rejected. Yeah. And then I was dejected. And I was like. Wait, so you said you were boyfriend and girlfriend, but yet you've never talked. Never talked. First day. We talked as friends, but once we started dating. And we went into apologetics. Yeah. But you know what I'm saying? You're out there and the whole time it's like this self-introspection and it's like the spiral into my own self-examination that I can't even participate in the dance. And now you fast forward and I give you another experience that I had when Layla got married. And now I'm married to the love of my life. been married at that point for 22 years and i have five kids um i paid for this wedding you know all this going on like a life built and al you were there and the dance floor was just like everybody was dancing i was hopping it was hopping and i was dancing and i never thought i was never in my own head you see what i'm saying yeah i wasn't in my own head thinking well if i go out there i wonder if she's gonna reject me i'm like she's gonna reject me i got five kids with this woman. I got a whole life. We got a life together, right? Because we're in it now. I'm actually living in the experience. I'm actually in the dance now. And when you're in the dance, you're not thinking about being in the dance. You're just in the dance. You're dancing with the people that you love, and you're lost in it. And that's the picture when he says that he needed to break out of the spell, that spell of his circular existence. Because you remember, you that's where i was just about to ask you about that keep going yeah that was where i was go ahead what were you going to say no i was because i this kind of ties into the middle school middle school dance because i was kind of confused you because we shall escape the circle and undo the spell and dr warborsand that that means like an escape from the self-imposed imprisonment that alienates us from god which kind of was like you in the dance you've you kind of self-imposed your imprisonment in the corner and it also kind of ties back into what john luke said earlier that was lewis's frustration was that not necessarily that god did not answer the prayer, but that he had convinced himself that he wasn't praying fervently. And yeah, you end up being in this self-imposed imprisonment that God necessarily did not put you in. And remember, I like, Zach, you brought up the idea of time and your analogy to yourself as this eighth grade kid to then having a child, your first child get married. And that's Lewis, because remember this work about the cycle was 1919. He was still an atheist when he wrote that. And so to show that person, who then this last book, of course, he's even already gone on, crossed over to the Await the Resurrection. So that's over the course of time, you do figure out how to get in. If you're doing it Christ's way, you figure out how to get into the dance. We want you to take this course with us. It's free at unashamedforhillsdale.com. Yes, actually, what are your thoughts on that quote, Zach? We shall escape the circle and undo the spell. I want to say one thing that you just said I thought was so ironic and I don't, I mean, just appropriate. You used a phrase I had to look this up in the NIV and I hope it's correct. I know it was yeah, it's in the NIV. So I'd mentioned earlier, you'd used a phrase you just used this phrase, you called it self-imposed prison. Imprisonment. Yeah, so think about self-imposed like that phrase, self-imposed. And earlier, I was equating to what Lewis is talking about with the idea of asceticism, which is you're trying to – it's all this self-introspection. Not that that's bad in itself, but when it gets an overload and that becomes the center of it all, then it is bad. And listen to what Paul says when he actually uses that word. In the ESV, he uses the word asceticism. In the NIV, this is how he says it. Such regulations indeed have the appearance of wisdom with their self-imposed worship. Wow. Their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence. And so it really is like this inward pursuit. Nasal gazing, right? Do what? Don't we call it nasal gazing? Yeah. Yeah. You're looking – you're just sitting there looking at yourself. And so when he says that we break out of the spell, what he's talking about is a circular existence. You can't – like we have a longing. When we talked earlier about that longing for the joy and all, the longing is actually for the transcendent. If everything that you're doing is inward focused and you actually become a black hole, and the one thing about black holes is that nothing can escape the gravitational pull of a black hole, except for Hawking radiation. But nothing can escape the gravitational pull. It just pulls in everything around it. And then we become – Did he just drop in a Hawking? I'm sorry. How do you think you're going to fit like Superman? You scum. You can't say that with a straight face. You can't say that with a straight face. When I said it, I thought somebody was going to fact check me and they're going to find that little nuance. You knew that. I was like, wow. I was going to say that, but you said it before I could. I could see y'all looking at each other in the screen and I started laughing. I was trying to hold it in. I was just about to say, separate hog revelation. Well, my point was that if you're existing in the way that he was existing in his prayer life with the ever-increasing quest for sincerity, you become a black hole and you eventually collapse in on yourself. And so when we were actually created to not exist inwardly, but to exist outwardly and to express outwardly and to overflow as God overflows because we made in his image And so we actually created for the transcendent And so that why he says that you break out of the spell of circular reasoning And that's when he brought in the whole Romans 8 passage, that the spirit intercedes. We come in with a longing that we can't even express. And that's the point. We can't express a longing for the eternal because it's eternal. It's God. It's who he is. He's infinite. and we'll never actually get to the end of that. And that is the whole point of the new creation that God is bringing forth. And Romans 8 talks about this, but that's what we're pushing towards. And so you get out of that, and then what it does is it doesn't only give you context now. It also gives you the infinite to push into, which is God. So you never consume him. So Zach, that's a perfect segue into the last segment here, which was the second part of the lecture, which was first part was about prayer and this relationship you just described. And then the second part was about the role of the word of God in that same process. And he had basically two reflections in the lecture, and they're both excellent. But the first one goes with what you just said, and that's to clarify that the divine word is different from the written word. And a lot of people miss that. So all the things you were just describing about making this into this somehow cycle of aesthetics and things we do, it's the same thing with the word of God. The original, the divine word of God is Jesus. And that's the way the writers looked at it. And so, and we talk about this a lot on the other, I'm ashamed, that everything was written to point to him. And you already quoted, I think in the last podcast, John 5, 39, which was Jesus himself saying, you study these scriptures that are about me, and yet you reject me. Which still happens to this day, because again, you're trying to build something up that you can do or you can know. But if you miss the whole point of it, which is the relationship with Jesus, then you've missed the whole point of it. And so that was the first thing he said about that. Of course, he quoted John 1 and 2 and then 14 that we know from John and we know from Jesus himself that he is the word of life. And then the second point, and then we can discuss it, was that you also – that Lewis knew you had to distinguish the different genres of the Bible to understand the Bible. These are, you know, they were written differently with different purposes. And he used the parables as his illustration of how Jesus talked about that. And, you know, in the moment of, these didn't have historical context because they were parables. They were about people that he had come up with. So he made some way. Yeah, I hadn't thought about those not being real people. Right. Like the good Samaritan, the prodigal son. Because I just thought about that happening, you know, maybe at some point. But I hadn't thought about that as in he's not actually trying to give an historical account of that. It's just, yeah, the idea of that. Right. And, of course, we can all agree with the ones on the parables. When he got into Jonah, people get a little bit more, oh, I don't know about that. Well, I thought that was funny. On Jonah, I gave a sermon last year on Jonah and the genre of Jonah. And the whole point was the closest thing we have to Jonah today is sketch comedy. Yeah. And that's the genre. Like, that's what it was. Like, it was a sketch. It was like what you would see on Saturday Night Live. And when I said that, you could see everyone in the room like, hold on. Like, what? Like, what? And that which I thought I was kind of affirming me that Lewis said basically the same thing. That's this is one of my my favorite things about C.S. Lewis. and kind of what i said in the beginning too that i think if he was writing today people would not he would get a lot of criticism and this was that he had got a lot of criticism back in the day this was jr tolkien one of his biggest criticisms of lewis and all of his books and specifically is that lewis didn't was playing a little too fast and loose with his analogies yeah and not Not focusing so much on the historicity of the Bible or even really – yeah, just playing fast and loose with the Bible and with his analogies and stretching things further than what the context would be. Well, he wasn't – I mean he wasn't a theologian. I think it would be a mistake to read C.S. Lewis through the lens of like, hey, I'm going to grab my theology from what he wrote. Right. That's not really, in my opinion, his contribution to the Christian faith, although his contribution is massive and has been very massive in my own life. For me, he was great at painting that more imagined imagination. And he's not – he was – I mean, self-admittedly, he was not a theologian. You know, Zach, in the modern vernacular, you know who it's just like? It's just like Dallas Jenkins. I mean, we've had him on our podcast several times, and his work is amazing. And the chosen has done so much. And it's such an amazing word. But he says it's my vision of the people around Jesus. And I'm telling stories. I'm not a theologian. He says it over and over. He's like, I'm making entertainment. I think what Lewis does, his point on Scripture we should listen to, though, because I've ran into this a lot. People say, do you interpret the Bible literally? And I'm like, well, yes. But I also interpret the Bible poetically. you have to interpret. I mean, there's a lot of different ways. Scripture is not all written in the same exact framework. I mean, you have poetry, you have law, you have history, you have a lot of different things in there. And if you try to apply it across the board, it's not going to hold steady. Like one guy, when we were going through our series on Isaiah, which had implications to the book of Revelation, he's like, well, I read the Bible literally. I read Revelation literally. I'm like, you do? He said, yeah. I mentioned Revelation chapter 9 when it talks about the locusts, Because his position was that those were Black Hawk helicopters. And I'm like, you're not reading it literally. You're interpreting locusts to mean something now today. So you're not actually reading it literally. And if you try to impose that, everything's going to be read literally. Then you kind of run into some issues. You have to interpret it in the context in which it was written. I think that's what he was more getting at. But even the Bible itself, Zach, says you read the book of Job, and most of the book of Job were speeches by Job's friends who then at the end of Job, God says, your friends – I'm paraphrasing, your friends are idiots. They don't know what they were talking about. Yeah, yeah. I mean, so all those passages that are in the Bible, whereas God's saying those guys are – they don't know what they're talking about. And if you just pull out the book of Job, prime example, and you start reading some of their advice, and you're like, oh, this sounds good. You start quoting the scripture. You start quoting the scripture. Man, that Bill Dad, he was on to something. Yeah, great, great point. Well, I think we're kind of running out of time. I wanted to go back to kind of his main, like the climax of his conversion because he would walk into the garden, which was Addison's walk. And I love this that he said it was like a circular walk. And now there's like a poem there about the songbird, which you'd mentioned a little bit ago, Christian. And it was a lot. I connected the circular nature of the walk. Like he's in, he's walking in the circle and we've all felt this, right? Like you feel like I'm just fucking in my own head. Like everybody's kind of had that experience in life and multiple times and seasons when you just feel like I'm just, I can't get outside myself. And that circular, that's the circular walk. I'm in, I'm in the thing and I'm just walking in circles and I'm just, It's like, but there's got to be something out of here that I'm moving towards or pointing to, which again goes back to the poet, the poet's fingers pointing out, not in. And so that really was the climax for Lewis of coming to Christ was this breaking out of that self-centeredness. And where I think this ties back into that seventh grader, Zach, eighth grade Zach, is it's getting out of the corner. So worried about your own rejection, so worried about how you're going to perform, so worried about all of those things. The point is, go enjoy the dance. Like, can you just quit thinking about the dance and watching the dance and observing the dance and contemplating how you're going to fit in the dance and just just go dance? dance. And what Christ is bringing us into is not just a contemplation about who God is or who even Christ is. It is an invitation to participate in the divine dance, to partake, according to the Apostle Peter, to partake of that divine nature. And that's where you actually start to taste the enjoyment. And you're not even really knowing what you're doing when you're doing it. You're just like, I'm enjoying this. That's transformational. And that really is the key to what we're trying to do on our podcast, Zach, is we study the Scripture not just to contemplate it, but to joy in it and how it impacts our life. And we're about out of time, so I want to close with this, because one of my favorite lines from the lecture was right at the end when he said that Lewis said, Christ is the hermeneutical key to studying and applying the Bible. And I think that's so true. We say that a lot on Unashamed. And he went to Luke 24, Zach, one of your favorite passages, And remember, he's walking along with these two disciples, and Jesus does his typical thing. He says, hey, what's going on? Is there anything happening around it? It's kind of like, and they're like, you haven't heard? And then it says in verse 27, beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the scriptures concerning himself. Now, these are two guys that he's just spent three years with, but now he's resurrected. They're not even sure who he is because he's done the shape shift thing, and they don't recognize him. and then he goes back and goes through the whole thing, and he tells them this story as they're walking along, and then they said this when they looked at each other after he vanishes, you know, after he ate a meal with them, were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the scriptures to us? And so that really becomes the whole point, right? I mean, and I love it that Lewis, he was not a theologian, but obviously he was shaped by the word, And he picked the one thing He picked the poetry to be able to do that But that influenced and impacted him But he said the right thing He said the thing that we say every day On this podcast, Zach That Christ has to be the hermeneutical key To everything That's key I'll say this, I know we're closing But think about what happens When you're dancing with the woman That you're in love with Or you're dancing with the man that you're in love with If you were to describe it, would you not say my heart is burning my heart's on fire and so that that hermeneutic of christ when you're when you realize that all the scriptures point to who he is and you and then now you're in the dance the only thing that can happen from that is that your heart burns like like these guys on the road to emmaus and that's that's the life i want to live into and i want my heart to be set ablaze for him and i think that's probably what will transform has transformed the world and what will transform the world. I got you. You're right. Knowledge by acquaintance. Knowledge by acquaintance. Really good. We want you to take the course with us. We've got a couple more lectures left. So if you're just kind of joining in now, jump in here. You're going to love it. It's free, unashamedforhillsdale.com, and we'll see you next time. Join us every Friday for Unashamed Academy powered by Hillsdale College. Make sure to go to unashamedforhillsdale.com and sign up. It's no cost to you. That's unashamedforhillsdale.com. And don't miss an episode of the Unashamed Podcast by subscribing on YouTube and be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode.