Behind The Looks with Meredith Koop

I knew like if something went wrong with the designer, you know, if it was the wrong thing, the wrong person, the wrong time, even just the zipper breaks, she falls down her heels break. Like you've never seen her fall down because I checked everything. You've never seen her zipper pop because I checked the zipper. You know what I mean? So like, I can't have our first black person. Lady falling down. No, no, no, no, that's great. That was very, that was the biggest goal. Getting out of the eight years without falling. This episode is brought to you by Ribbon. Welcome to the Look, a special series on I am O. The Look also happens to be the name of Michelle Obama's beautiful new book, which is available for purchase now. I'm Elaine Valtra, the journalist, author, television host and founder of BirthFun and it is my absolute honor to be here today with the Mrs. Obama and her long time beloved stylist Meredith Koop. Hello ladies. Hi, Elaine. Thank you for being so, so, so excited to have you here. You know, when we started working on this project, first person I said we have to get is you, my friend. So, you know, and look at you. I'm not crying. I'm not crying. Look at you. Look at you too. I am so excited to be here, even just walking into this room, seeing these pictures made my eyes well up. This is a moment that we get the opportunity to sit together and reflect on all of the history, all the fashion history that you all have co-created. So it is my honor to be here. You both worked so hard on this book project and I am so excited to get into all of it. For this episode, we are going to go deep behind the scenes with both of you to hear all about your style evolution from the White House to today. And before we get to all of that though, I want to take a moment to get to know Meredith. Ooh, so fun fact. When I had the opportunity to share, when I shared this opportunity with just a couple of people in my life, even the fashion people were like, wait, Michelle Obama, has a stylist? Oh, yes, people. Yes. So, after being behind the scenes all of these years, what is it like to finally step in front of the cameras and tell your story and be able to share your work with the world? This must feel so amazing. Yeah, it's exciting, honestly. I mean, I've done interviews and things here and there, but to have this project that's so much more in depth and substantive and really speaks to what the work is, is awesome. And it's my work with Michelle is different. You know, then I would say most stylists, but there's also a lot in common with what most stylists do. So, it feels good. I mean, it's kind of scary, but it's good. Well, you have to tell us a little bit of your backstory because you are literally living so many people's fashion dream. And yet you didn't even set out to be a stylist. So we have to hear how you landed this job of all jobs. This is huge. And by the way, you started your first fashion job was kind of just to pay the bills. You went to school for psychology. You were intending to pursue a path in psychology. So I also want to hear how your background in psychology has influenced your work as a stylist. My passion growing up was dance. That was something that I felt truly passionate about, but that did not come to fruition for me. And I just say one of the favorite, my favorite things about Meredith is that she is a bomb dancer. She has moves. She might be fine, I'll make it. Five, six, seven, eight. Yes. And she can throw down. She can throw down. But that's the factoid that I think the world needs to know that in addition to being a model. She's ready. She is ready. She is ready. Okay. But yeah, so that was really something that had I had all the expansive opportunity in front of me with that. That's what I would have done. But that's not how I grew up. Like the culture of my family was, you're going to go to a liberal arts college, you're going to go to a four year college, you're going to get a degree. Something that could potentially translate into some sort of steady income. And I think it wasn't, you know, when I meet people that have children that are like pursuing the arts, I'm always so impressed with the parents of how open they are to that experience. So when I went to school, I chose psychology just because I was interested in people, but it wasn't like this big plan, you know. And college was not a place where I thrived. I was not prepared emotionally, mentally to be in that space independently and had a lot of issues. So when I came out of that experience, I wasn't, oh, I'm set up for success. And now I'm going to go climb some corporate ladder somewhere. I came out like, you what? And what, what are people doing? Like how old am I? What am I, what am I supposed to do now? Like I think a lot of people have that experience. It's just, you know, with my specific issues and things that I was dealing with, I was like, I just need to get a job. I wasn't about my ego. It wasn't about anything except I want to make money to support myself so that I can just be a functioning adult on some level. And we've just Chicago. And I just started looking through ads. And at the time, a lot of those ads were print. They were printing out. Remember the day. I saw this ad and it said sales associate at a high end clothing boutique. Like I remember exactly what it said. And then a number, no name, like I didn't really know what it was. I didn't really know where it was. I just knew it was in Chicago. And I wasn't shopping at high end luxury stores. Okay. So I had no reference. So I called, I, you know, they answered with the name of the store. So then I was able to research what it was. I went in for the interview. And also just noting that like I'd always been interested in fashion. Like fashion always spoke to me. Clothing always spoke to me. Like I always liked that expressive nature of it. I always like playing dress up. I always, you know, it was laying out outfits for my mom at a young age. Like I was always drawing clothes and designs and things. But again, it wasn't something where I thought, oh, here's a model of how I could use that in a career. I had no idea. That's just the thing about unconventional careers, you know? Yeah. I mean, you go to college for a broad spectrum and you get the majors that you get. You can be, you still learn, you can be a doctor, a lawyer. I always say this. But nobody talks about being an entrepreneur. No one, no one talks about fashion design. No one talks about styling. And certainly not in my community that I was a Midwest, a Louis Missouri in the suburbs. Like I just didn't, I just didn't have a frame of reference for it like that. So yeah, so I went in, I did this interview and the woman that owned the store was like, sorry, no, like you have no experience. And so therefore you can't work here. And what had happened was when I walked into that store, I saw all of these amazing clothes in jewelry. I remember exactly how it looked where the jewelry cases were, the jewelry that was in it, you walk over here, the gowns were hanging at the end of the rack. And I'm going a little out of order, forgive me. But prior to the interview, as I was walking around looking through, I was just like, whoa, like this is crazy. I've never seen this in person. I had seen magazines, like I grew up reading magazines. I would go to Barnes & Noble and read the magazines that we didn't have at the house. And then whatever we had, I would read. So I was just like, wow, I want to work here, you know, once I saw that. So when she told me no, I was just like, oh no, I am going to work here though. So I'm working here. So I was just a moment of clarity, a moment of boldness. I was like, well, put me on a temporary position. You think I'm awful. You could just let me go. No questions asked, like no problem, six months. And she was like, okay. So that's when I started working there. And that was sort of like, you know, it's not just a clothing store. You just kind of, you know, you walk in and you look around. You had client books. There was a lot of fashion. High and high and high. And like there's a fashion education that happens there with the staff. With the owner, like, she is incredible at her curation, her styling, the way that she runs her store. So I just learned a ton being there about designers, fabric, alterations, tailoring, like all the things that you would sort of learn as a styling assistant. I learned some of those things there. So this is E-Crom, boutique in Chicago, which is legendary. Yes. Even as someone who's not from Chicago, like, I've heard of E-Crom. And so it makes sense to me what you're describing as this, like, I mean, this is kind of the fashion fairy tale, even starting at E-Crom. Yeah. I mean, that's how I felt when I first walked into E-Crom. I was like, oh my God, this place is amazing. So flash forward. You get a call one day from E-Crom. And she says what I'm at this. I can't swear a crappy job. And I get a call. And it's E-Crom. And she literally is like, there it is. Guys, are you seeing the scene? Are you seeing this play out? I could see this on. I don't want to see my, I'm not going to take it too far. But there was like a sense of drama. There was a sense of like, this is something's happening. Like she's calling me for something big. So she said, I need someone to go to DC or she said something like, I need someone to go to DC and be sort of the go between because I don't have anyone else to send. And I trust you, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, what are you? I like, what is that look like? It was just out of nowhere. So I'm like, what exactly am I going to be doing? I'm going to be working with Michelle Obama in what sense? In what context DC, like when, who, what when, where, how, why? What's going on? And it was just like you say, say yes and ask questions later. You have 24 hours because I was like, I didn't want to think about it. You know, I don't think that went over. So, yeah. So basically the next things were like, I was just saying yes to the next thing. I wasn't saying yes to the whole kid and caboodle because I didn't even know what the kid and caboodle was. So I wasn't going to be like, yeah, I'm in, right? I didn't know you. I didn't know anything about anything. You did know DC. I didn't know DC. I didn't know like anything. So I just agreed to move forward with whatever the immediate next step was. And I think is a major lesson in life is just to say yes to the next best thing. Don't overthink it. Don't just say yes to the next best thing. If your enthusiasm is calling you in that direction, if it feels like the right step, when did you know this was actually the right step for you though? Because it sounds like you went in with a little bit of trepidation and a lot of items. Yeah. And I can say that that was a big plus. You know, the, you know, to be cold call to drop your life. Because what I said, I think that it's saying to be hesitant. I think I would have been a bit more suspicious. I would have been like, okay, is this young person have some gravitas in her own life to really think about this? You know, because sometimes just saying, yes, that's not an indication that you're really ready. Because if you haven't sort of thought through this, this big life changing move, move, you know, you're going to pick up from everything you know, move to a whole another city and enter into a world that I couldn't even explain yet to, to merit it. You know, there was a lot of, we don't know what we're doing. We don't know what this is going to be. But you know, what I can, what I could say to her is that, you know, you'll be safe. You'll be respected. You know, if you put in the effort, you'll be treated well. I need the help. And you've got to be ready to build and grow with this process because there really wasn't a process. So it was two leaps of faith that we were, we were both taking. Kind of a fashion love story. And really what you said, because I remember like when we had our little meet up for the first time, she said to me, she said, if you're smart, funny, and you work hard, you'll be fine. And I was like, well, okay, you're like, check, check, check, check, check, just to create a bigger context to what we were doing. I had been working with Ikram. I started working with Maria Pinto. The first time that I had ever worked with a designer. And I met Ikram through another friend and I hadn't shopped at her shop in Chicago, either. And walking in, I was like, wow, you know, this is a whole other level of design and styling that was just important to the overall role. At the time we started working together, we were still campaigning. It wasn't clear that he was going to win. But I was thinking ahead, thinking about, you know, I'm going to need gowns and a whole range of things that I can't get from one designer. So Ikram was styling me for about the first year of the term, but it was very difficult for her as the owner of her own shop to really, I mean, I needed somebody full time. I needed somebody that was smart, capable, understood the baseline of fashion, but could also get the political message. And there was just something about the way Meredith carried herself. She was always poised and she was always honest. You know, she didn't, she wasn't selling me on this job. She wasn't sort of telling me a bunch of stuff that she was ready. If she was very clear, I don't know about this. I'm learning this, but I could tell that she was a hard worker. And I was like, well, we can figure the rest of it out, you know. So, so she came on about the, well, you were always there facilitating, but it was a clear that I needed one stylist. I needed somebody exclusively working with, with me for me, with a range of designers. And that's when we, I decided, okay, Meredith, you can do this. Then I had to really tell her, you can actually do this. I had seen her working enough to know that she could figure this out. And I think there may have been a little kind of like, hmm, can I? But I knew she could. Hey, everybody. I am here with my sister daughter, friend, everything, hair stylist, Yena. Yena, welcome to the podcast. Thank you for having me. I know I get to have you here and we get to talk. All the things we've been working together for a while. I mean, you've been styling me exclusively almost for a decade now. But in the orbit for about 16, 17 years, 16, 17 years. You see you look at you and you think, well, she's 16 or 17. So you started when you were eight years old. Yeah. 21. One of us. She with us are our listeners, our audience, your story of how we met and how you came into my life as baby, as a little baby stylist, a beard, baby stylist. A beard baby. We met in 2009. I started doing hair. I had just got licensed actually shortly after, shortly before we met, but I had started doing hair when I was in middle school. That's when my interest in the beauty space first peaked by 16. I decided to go to cosmology school and you were like doing people's hair in the neighborhood. Yeah. Family. I was the neighborhood braider. I had a little salon set up in my parents garage. That's the funny thing. It's like your parents hooked you up, let you be a little entrepreneur. Yes. Yes. It was so nice. It was like the early 2000s and I was doing all the braiding and all the things. My brother was my very first client. I started braiding here and it here. My braiding skills were horrible. But you were seven. Yeah. But it was, it was fine. It was like, it was my practice. That was really great. And then went to cosmology school. And shortly after I got licensed, I met Johnny and I started working with him. And by Johnny, you mean Johnny, right? Yes. Johnny, right. And my primary hair stylist threw out the White House years. And he took me under his wings and brought me in. And that's how we met. And I started working with the girls, which is crazy because I was the baby, but they were the babies too. And I got to her. How old were they when you first, because it was at the very beginning. So they were 10 and seven. Yeah. They were very little. You met them. Yes. We used to do the twists and all the things and Sunday wash, they routines and all the fun times and shoproaning them and just being a part of their lives. It was now being a little bit older and having my own kid. It's like, oh, that was really fun moments. And I remember what that was like when I was in their age and I was, you know, getting my hair done by my mother. Well, that was the beauty of them. You were their big sister. And it was good for you. Yeah, it was all the sisters falling down because you also did grandma too. Yeah. So it was all of us ladies together. But I love the fact that you were their big sister hair mentor at the very beginning that they had somebody younger who understood what they were trying to do. And you were teaching them all along about hair health and hair care. And you would have the arguments with them if they wanted to switch a style that you didn't agree with. I'd be like, okay, you guys learn this in school. And this is all cute. But we have to think about what's going to work beyond this period and time and making sure that when we finish throughout all this that your hair is still healthy and you could do whatever you want when you're an adult and you actually have the freedom and the financial capacity to do whatever you want and be creative. And so it was fun times. Yeah. And you know, the thing is people don't realize that you were also studying to get your degree. I was in college because your parents were in tell about that. Yeah. My parents were supportive of this endeavor of me doing hair kind of sort of, which is why they love me go to Cosmichard. I just when I was 16, but there was a caveat. I still have to go to college. But when I ended up working with Johnny and moving because you guys want to go office and I packed my life and moved across the country from California to DC, I dropped out of college. And so my parents were like, okay, you still have to go to college. So I did. I went back. I still have to go to college. I still have to go to college. Which, you know, I'm so grateful for it because I think that people don't realize that as beauty professionals or service providers, we're entrepreneurs and it's extremely important for us to have these skillsets and to have the knowledge to properly run a business. And going back to school and getting my degree in business really helped me, which now that I have a salon, it has helped me build the team that I have. It has helped me run my business in a way that is profitable and that makes sense and I'm able to scale. So I'm grateful that I went back to college, but it would be in the salon in the middle of touch ups, helping Johnny out or doing the girls. I'd be in the corner riding my papers. Doing homework, doing my homework. And it was actually kind of funny because the girls were looking at me and they'd be like, are you really doing homework? And I'm like, yeah, just like you guys, I have homework, but I'm, you know, in my 20s now and you're not, but this is the reality of life. So what was it like for you being that young, entering, into that arena? What did it feel like the first time you had to walk into the White House? Because you were a lot of nerves. A lot of nerves, you know, and I think not only was it that I was young, but you grow up in a society where people don't have respect for the traits, right? People don't think that like even my parents are like, you have to go to college. So add to be a doctor, a lawyer, an engineer, go down this traditional trajectory when it came to education. So coming into that type of space, you're always doubting yourself to be like, am I adequate enough? And that was something that I struggled with all throughout our time there, but there was this reinforcement. I knew that I was adequate, but you still have these doubts. And so the first time coming in, it was just do the job. It was Easter weekend and it was before the Easter egg roll. And I was shampooing the girl's hair and your husband walked in and you were like, this is you know, and I was like shampooing here and I was like, hello, sir. And then I just went right back and I was like, don't say anything. Don't make contact. I don't look in the eye. I just like do your job. And I just kept hearing my parents in the background be like, don't embarrass us. I'm like, you have manners. You know, so there was all of these pressures because there was so much respect and as a young little black girl, I also knew what it meant to have someone like you and your husband in office. And so there was that added layer of pressure where it was just like, we also had to make sure that we did you guys right and make you proud. And we had to make sure that we were doing the best of our ability to keep your guys as like to see as bright as it was. And you made me so proud all the time that you know, your skill set, your professionalism always showed through you were never late. You never complained. You never talked about your homework. You didn't treat it as a problem. You were kind, gracious, all the things and it has been just amazing to watch you grow. And now you are your own business owner. Can you talk a bit about where you are in life now? Now under the Stetics salon in 2017, we have a team of 23 individuals that we've worked with. 23 people working for you. Yes, it's not crazy. I can't stop but think of this child as a baby. So I came to the opening. Yes, right. I came to the opening and still watching you be a baby boss is. I still like to take the title of baby boss. Maybe I'm a hold on to that. But we have 23 team members that work with us from styling team to assistance to our operations manager. And we have three apprentices right now that are going through class metology school with us as well because rather than going and paying, they're coming and getting first hand experience, trade experience on the job, which I'm extremely proud about. I'm not just for myself but for the other salon members who are pouring into these young girls as well. And they're from all different walks of life and all different ages. And so I'm grateful for that. We have a thriving clientele book that we're so grateful for that supports us. That does a lot in the community that supports us that gives back that brings ideas to us that we're always grateful for as well. And as you know, like the relationship we have, we have very intimate personal relationships and we get to be a part of all of their big life moments. Good and bad to just have someone to lean on. Like you, my clients pour into me and help me become a better person, a better woman, a better mother, a better wife now in this era of my life like you do. And your philosophy is beautiful hair, but healthy hair. Good hair is healthy hair. So health is first, the health integrity of your hair. We could have versatility, but we have to make sure that we're doing a 360 approach. We're looking at it from the inside out. What are you eating? What is your diet? What is your lifestyle? Like is this conducive to what you do and what your hair goals are? And not really being so fixated on like length retention, but healthy hair. So sometimes we have to do a cut or a chop to grow it out. If we need to use extensions, if we need to go into protective styles, all is well and all is necessary. But understanding who you are and giving you a personalized approach. And this is what I like about what you bring to the industry is that you're not just concerned about the outside, the aesthetic. And people ask me, well, what's your favorite hairstyle that Yena has done? I mean, I like them all, but what I love about you is that you care about my health. So you create styles for the moment that fit the moment, but also don't damage my hair, that keep me looking fresh and healthy and up to date. You know all the trends. You can take me through all the things. You absolutely do. But at the core of your philosophy is teaching, training and hair health. Yes. Education is extremely important. And transparency is really important. I think that so for so long, women have felt captive to their hairstyle is and they're not safe at again. They're not able to recreate things because hair styles are like, this is my territory. This is my landscape. This is my space and I have to be in control. And for me, it's like, no, because if a client doesn't come to me every single day, they're in control of their hair. And they need to be able to make it look good regardless because if someone stops on the tree and says, who did your hair? You don't say my name. So I need to make sure that you have the education, you have the products, you have the skill set, you have the tools at home to maintain your hair and that your hair is healthy and it works for you. And education is at the key foundation of everything that we do. And one thing you all am very excited about is that services from people like Yenne are available to everyone now because of Airbnb and their new special efforts to not only offer wonderful places to stay, but they can access your services through Airbnb. Can you talk about that relationship? Absolutely. Not just in Washington DC, but also in LA, which is. Oh, yeah, that's right. So, yeah, that's a California Airbnb's new platform makes it easy to book services with professionals for all special events from birthdays to weddings to girls getaways. You can find a makeup artist, you can find a massage therapist, hairstylist and even me. All you have to do is search my name, Yenne, damn, too. And if you're also a hair professional looking to grow your clientele, you too can list your business on Airbnb at Airbnb.com slash services. Well, we I want to go back a little bit to first impressions because neither one of you could have prepared for the role of a lifetime that you were both about to step into together. So, you know, not just you being a first lady, but the first black first lady is it that's a unique styling job that there's certain complexities that no one can teach you that, right? You have to learn that there's some innate, intuitive and historical understanding that you have to have to step into a role like that. So I want to go to first impressions and how and because when I think about, you know, the fact that most people don't know who this enigma is, the stylist behind Mrs. Obama, what was your very first impression of Meredith? And Meredith, I'm going to ask you the same question and I want unfiltered raw first impressions of each other. Well, the first impression was she's gorgeous. And I always tell Meredith this, I think she is one of the most beautiful people inside and out. And she seemed calm, just steady, even though I know that deep down inside she can be a bubbling pot of everything. You know, this poise, this, I mean, this is who Meredith has always been. This she has not changed. And even though Meredith worked in this high-end store and she could have been, she was very much a regular girl who I felt like I recognized. And I'm always one to get to know people's stories, you know. So throughout all the time that we work together with everybody that I work with, I want to know how do you grow up? Tell me about your mom, tell me about your sister, you know, her relationship with her sister and her brother-in-law. And her honesty about her challenges in life. I mean, she wasn't coming in phony, she wasn't coming in trying too hard. She was coming in full heart open. And then there is the relationship with my girls, right? Because she, Meredith, didn't just style me. I mean, I needed the girls had to get dressed, you know, for events and for, my mom had to get dressed. And this little girl at such a young age was taking that all on. And she had a connection with Malia and Sasha and Mom. I mean, they were as close to Meredith as I was. She's been through a lot over the course of our time in the White House. She lost her sister in a battle with cancer. I'm so sorry. But she's in Washington trying to hold that down and making sure that her family was good. It's just, you know, you just know a person's heart, which to me is more important than the job, you know, her heart was right. And that was completely clear from the beginning. And I'm so proud of her. I'm just proud of the woman that she is. So that was my, that was really my first and continues to be my impression of Mary. Thank you. You know, get the dishes. I was supposed to make you cry. You're right. Here, here goes something. What is it like hearing her say that those things about you? I mean, it's wonderful. I, I very much appreciate it. And I mean, frankly, it's true. You know, I have done, you know, just just sort of go back a little bit like, you know, by the time I met you, I was 27. So when I was 21 after like a lot of struggles, I got sober. I started going to therapy. So any, the foundation that I came in with was that. That was the foundation that I built over those six years of learning about what it was to be in recovery, learning about myself in that way. So I'm in that, that's where I met when I met her. And the first time that we met was at E. Crom's store. And it was her and Sasha and Llea. So that's right. It was, it was hectic. Yeah. It was like a lot of energy. And also there was an expectation that I should sort of like be a little bit reserved like, I'm not going to go, Hey, what's up? Y'all, you know, like, it's like you're here. You're going to meet them. And like, that's it. She's going to pull you for an interview. I don't know when that's whatever. So my first impression was there was a lot going on. I know she looked at me and I know she acknowledged me, but it wasn't like warm fuzzy right off the bat. You know what I'm saying? Like, there was just, she was in the middle of a fitness. She was about her business. She was about her business, you know, and like, I get it. And I had already worked with clients. So I understood clients aren't going to come in and play Kate. You make you. It's not about you. You'll good. Yeah. So like, right. So that I understood and, and then, but then the sort of shift in that environment is her two daughters that are there jumping around and like just acting like they're at a carnival. And you know, and I'm like, oh my God, they're just so cute. You know, they've just so like so cute. You know, and so it was sort of more of an environment. And when we went in the dressing room, we had like this very short interview. I mean, it was just like, who are you? Like there wasn't like a resume sitting out. I was just like, who are you? What's going on? I need someone. You seem like this that and I was just like, uh-huh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's I'm not, you know, just to go back. I'm not really shy. I'm not reserved. That's not who I am. But I'm also, I think it's just my approach and what I see fashion as in this industry that I work in. I think is probably a, maybe a little different than what a lot of people are projecting or what sort of like the loudest voices like for me, it's always been like the beauty and the creativity and the connection and the energy and the that whole thing. Even if I couldn't articulate it when I was 21, you know, that's always, I've always just been like imaginative and creative and wanting to be creative in that space. So the fact that I got into this, this is now what I'm doing with my creativity. It could have been other things. It's just, this is just how it played out up until this point. So. And I also want to say that there is a difference between when you think of celebrity stylists, I always think of which word are you emphasizing? Are you the celebrity stylist or your celebrity stylist? And there is a difference. There is a, there is a big difference, right? Because, you know, what I say that I have a stylist, you know, I didn't know. What that word was. I knew that I needed help getting close because there was no way, as I write in the book, that I could go to Bloomingdale's and run into a couple of errands or go to Neiman Marcus, like I was doing before I met Meredith. There was just no room for it. And the, the art of getting dressed as a regular woman, it was not executable for me. So I wasn't thinking style as much as I was thinking. I got a lot of events coming up and I can't, I can no longer go into the department store, like a regular person. Right. I can't get stuff off the rack. I can't, I can't browse. I don't have time for that. Nor do I have the ability. The bubble was so thick and continues to be that the normalcy of everyday dressing was no longer available to me or my daughters. Well, I think let's define the term stylist. Oh, yes. Because you started styling Mrs. Obama before that was a recognizable term or job that people even knew about. And to this day, the average person doesn't really know. I didn't know about it. I wouldn't have called Meredith a stylist. Right. I mean, that's what she was doing. I mean, that was the only thing. That was the first time I heard about it. She had that reality show. I was like, oh, wow. Imagine somebody buying clothes for you. That seems interesting. That's a confession fairy tale, like not real life. And one of the words that Meredith has used to describe you, like in a word, she has described you as practical above all else. So I want to hear you guys. It's true. It's so true. It applies to the fashion we're going to spend in time. But, but help us define what your role actually was because as you mentioned, these days, sometimes the stylists are as celebrated as the celebrities that they dress. And they have their whole aura and a whole platform. In this case, that was not the case. You were here to do a job. And the job was so singular for an individual like Mrs. Obama. So what? And it's not as glamorous as people might imagine. That's what the job really is. That's funny. Yeah. So, so a few things. It's true. Rachel Zow was the first stylist in sort of at least American culture that everybody was sort of aware of in the mainstream. So I watched that show and I knew who she was. And I was like, she's incredible. I die of love. But my role and kind of coming back to this question of defining a stylist, it's true that what I was doing in the White House isn't what a typical stylist would necessarily be doing just because of the various considerations and the intensity of those considerations. Like it wasn't about what's fabulous, what's new, what's hot, what just came down the runway. Sometimes little bits of that, probably more so now, more so now. But it was more about what works, what makes sense, what is not going to pull attention away from what is going on here that is the bigger, more important thing. There were so many other considerations in choosing clothing and accessories and research and vetting and all of the stuff that I think it is different. And I needed to look good but not look apart. So I had to feel good in it. But I couldn't show up looking like don't touch me. Don't come near. I am so above you. I couldn't do that and sit on the floor with a bunch of preschool kids. As I was alluded to, I didn't want my clothes to speak before me. I couldn't never wear anything that wouldn't allow me to hug someone to drop on the floor to do jumping because we were literally because of let's move. I would never know when somebody would say let's do some push ups. I mean that happened on Ellen. That happened when we went to South Africa and went to the World Cup event and we did this big Let's Move event. Remember Bishop Tutu, Desmond Tutu because we were doing all these. We were just supposed to be walking around watching kids do calisthenics and things like that. And he looked at me and he said, I'm going to do push ups. And I'm like, oh, Bishop, please don't do. Don't do push ups. He was like, no, no, he dropped on the floor. And I was like, I looked over at my team and I know Meredith was like, don't get on the floor. And I was like, if he's doing push ups, if an 80 plus Bishop Desmond Tutu is on the floor doing push ups, I'm doing push ups with him. That kind of stuff would happen all the time. Meredith is cringing in the back. Yeah. For sure. And also we were ready. I remember what she was wearing that day. It was just we were ready because by that time we kind of knew like to stay ready. Yeah, to stay ready. And it was a lot of very unglamorous activities. Well, and then there is also the valet part of what Meredith had to do. Those would be the unglamorous activities. Usually, as a glamorous, packing, insane amounts of items and things and clothes and color coating them and organizing them and like it was a since how many events a week, a month. Well, it wasn't so, you know, I don't know how many events a week a month, but it was more of the foreign, foreign travel or campaign travel that was like the big, huge lifts of like and let's be fair. Like people do press tours and concerts and all this. So like it's not that it's not that it's out of the ordinary. I guess the situation was because I was working for the government and because there's only so many resources. I was a one person doing that. I was the one packing it. I mean, Rachel also has a team of the ILS law wrote. We didn't have that and all one woman Joe. And also for structural purposes, this is the difference between the first lady and the commander in chief. The commander in chief, his whole wardrobe crew, he comes from the military because he is the equivalent of a five star general and generals have valets. They have, you know, people who were enlisted, who were trained to wash care for uniformed suits, so on and so forth. The president of the United States has the same thing when he travels, when he gets dressed. My husband was assigned three valets. The family gets zero. The family is a bit secondary, right? So on the first lady's personal staff, there was only a position budgeted for one person that could be a babysitter or like a maid or a, you know, I mean, it sort of was a catch all position, which didn't really fit into anything that a modern day woman was doing. I mean, I was working. I was up as they would call it at least three or four days per week. That's just the average week. And by up means, and this is how I would just structure my days because I was also a mom. And there were also the times when I needed to be at school and going to soccer games and have that time up. And then those three days that I'm up three or four days, we would do anything from the day could start off with me harvesting the garden with kids. And then I would move to maybe a greet with military spouses and then go to a tea with a set of ladies or give a speech in the executive oval on healthy eating. And then I would leave and maybe go visit a high school. I would get all that done in one day. And we would have to be prepared. That might mean I'd be changing my clothes two, three times a day. And so Meredith would be responsible for getting me ready for each of those looks, each of those days getting those clothes ready, getting them fitted, getting them two designers and back, coordinating fittings for me within that schedule. Because then you have to still sit and fit for clothes. I had one person to do all of that, that person was Meredith. And she had a procured, she had to go out and do the research and find designers and find see who were the latest and greatest, who were those new up and coming minority designers. And I don't even know how she did that or when she found time to do that, to get on the phone and actually procure clothing to set up for the fitting to get ready for those weeks and months and months of things. But here's what I didn't have to do. I didn't have to worry about it because this little kid from Missouri, somehow handled all of that. Hi, I'm Carl Ray and I'm Michelle Obama's longtime makeup artist working in the beauty industry referrals or everything. I've really made a career through Word of Mouth referrals can come from a radiant bride I just worked with or from clients attending gallows and events. They received compliments and they're asked, I love your makeup, who did it? Word of Mouth is great, but it would have been so much easier to have Airbnb when I was coming up. 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We can't just get the we're going to the Grand Canyon because we're on Air Force One about to land and we're also he's he's going to then go off and give a speech somewhere. We are sitting in with this dilemma. What do I wear off this plane? We hit the tarmac and we're going with a park ranger to the Grand Canyon. We were like, well, what would what would I wear? What would a regular person woman wear with her husband? She would have on shorts and we spent like 15 minutes going back and forth. Yeah, that's a really weird day. I'm going to say that first of all, but I mean, for me, that whole thing was like this is my perception. Yeah. The word hike was miss was being thrown around in a way that if I were to define a hike and I've been on many hikes, this was not a hike, but it was like they just kept saying hike, hike, hike, hike. She had never mind that she's like, hike. So she's like, I'm going hiking and I'm like, there's no way they're having her, but I can't prove it. I don't know. And nobody can tell us. Nobody could exactly what was going on. What we might we might we might hike down the mountain. But I'm like, she's like, I can't on the mountain. But there were times when stuff like that would happen or if my husband decided, come on, let's go down the mountain, right? I have to be ready for that. And you don't and you don't win. I got crucified for this dishonoring Air Force one by walking down the stairs in shorts. How dare you dishonoring? I mean, the terms used were like, whoa, okay, we have to start pushing for real clear answers. I mean, we slowly started changing the way that we got prepped and what kind of information. And this is why people started details and it was detailed because it's like, no, you have to tell us if I if my team hasn't planned it, if I'm with the president, we have to know what exactly we're going to do. And then I would have to opt in and out of stuff. So we learned, you know, we learned how to manage information and learn that the wrong management of it could be some crazy negative headline that could then distort the whole purpose of the trip. And that kind of stuff infuriated me actually. It really did. And it's wildly unfair. Well, it's it just is pointless to the bigger issues of the country, right? It just seems like the people who are sitting at their desk deciding to write about a pair of shoes, you know, again, we've lost the plot. It wasn't like people in the White House were like, oh, yeah, it was, it was in fact the opposite. It was very, it was not that type of environment. It didn't, you know, there were people who didn't respect the work that they had no clue. I mean, of that pressure that is on the first lady. And I will say the first lady because it's a woman's burden of getting up every day and showing up in a readyed way. And the women who work in the White House, I mean, many of them were, you know, struggling as well, especially on foreign travel. I mean, one of the things that we had to do with the State Department, which they failed to understand is that we needed a lot of really important details to make the fashion on foreign trips work because you have to think about colors. What colors prints could be insulting, could be inclusive. We'd have to know things like whether is it going to rain because you can't show up with a silk blouse if you're going to be standing in the pouring rain. The pavement, you know, cobblestone versus grass versus, you know, all of that kind of stuff, which Meredith would have to add alone, push to get this, what seemed like meaningless information from high level officials that could make or break the whole trip. So many powerful women, especially women of color, related to your journey and the tight rope walk of even having to decide with such discernment and so much intention, what you put on your body, how you do your hair, how you present yourself to the world. I knew like if something went wrong with the designer, you know, if it was the wrong thing, the wrong person, the wrong time, even just the zipper breaks, she falls down her heels break. Like, you've never seen her fall down because I checked everything. I've never seen her zipper pop because I checked the zipper. You know what I mean? So like, we can't have our first black person falling down. No, no, no, that was Meredith's biggest goal getting out of the eight years without falling. I was like, because really, I was like, set of slippery stairs. You know, she's walking down in three-inch heels or whatever. So yeah, it was really just keeping that all in mind and also like, I just didn't, I didn't want to bring any negativity. I was like, let it not, let me not be the one to bring negativity into the space. Just for listeners who don't really have context, like the role that you are describing doesn't exist. This is one, one of one. You are one of one. So I want to give you your flowers. And now that we understand the practicality, the logistics of the job, I want to talk about the creativity and the storytelling because I know that that's what makes your heartbeat. That's what gets you up in the morning and makes you excited to do the logistics and that you're kind of like a professional shlipper in addition to being like this incredible visionary stylist. So let's talk about the storytelling because that is such a big part of styling and the two of you have woven together this incredible fashion narrative over the years together. Talk to me about what, what were the stories you were trying to tell, both in the White House and after. Yeah. I mean, it's different for everything. Everything is so specific. You relish the moments of the state dinners or the events where you feel like, okay, we can have a little bit of more fashion and not feel nervous about it. Not feel like, oh, this is going to take away from something. It's part of it. It's part of it for a first lady to show up looking beautiful as a representation in it. They're waiting for a faded breath to see what she turns out in. So it's true. There were a ton of like, I mean, I would say even now, like logistics just like take over everything. I feel like in creative spaces, unless you have a certain set up, which I don't know a lot of people to do. But that creative, that storytelling was always for me just a lot of instinct, frankly, and just like taking in a lot of, taking in a lot of information and then allowing it to come out, however it would. And that means like, I'm keeping up with shows. I'm keeping up with designers. I'm keeping up with new designers. I'm keeping up with politics. I'm keeping up with what's going on internally. I'm keeping up with the East Wing. I'm keeping up with you know, so it's like you take in all this information and like, it would just always come back to like my process. Like I established and built a process for myself of how I procured clothing, how I interface with designers, how I pulled things and then putting them together upstairs. Like I would spend all the time I had laying things out, like digesting it, trying it on myself because we're about the same height and like, it's convenient. Yeah. So I kind of became a fit model. A little bit of a fit model. Because some things I was like, I couldn't understand it on the rack. It was like, huh? Yeah. And it's also like, things always look different on the body. So it's like helpful to see, you know, to try on. So really it would just be that. Like I would just, over the years, especially, I just started to trust more and more like what my vision was. And we also never allowed anybody else to dress me for a fashion shoot because we couldn't count on somebody not putting us in a designer that could, you know, was doing something wrong or get you in trouble. And the fashion editors aren't thinking like that. They're thinking, I'd even with Vogue. And I want to thank Anna Wentour for allowing us the flexibility. I mean, the first time I was on the cover of Vogue, I was wearing J Crew. I know Anna wasn't really happy about that. But we were also sending a message that this Vogue cover was about something bigger than fashion. Unfortunately, every editor understood that. You know, so while there were those that took it too seriously, we had so much support from the fashion community, the fashion industry as they got to know us to understand this bigger story that we were trying to tell. And we got a lot of really good support. Yeah. I can speak to that as a fashion editor at the time. Yeah. I know if you would remember this moment, but it was my first shoot ever. I remember for sure because it was, it was essence. So it was it was it was it was your first solo Ebony cover. I wore that feather. Yes, your black, yeah, McQueen, the McQueen suit with the, but the back story here is that, and I don't even know if you know this, but before you arrived on set, we had racks for you. And custom made pieces and the stylist was just, you know, strapped in. Oh, four thing. And then we were, we get the phone call and we hear she's going to arrive in her own clothes and she's going to shoot in her own clothes. And while it sent the stylist in a tizzy, my boss, Harriet Cole, who have to shout out, took it. She had a big smile on her face and she said, that's what we're going to do then. We are pivoting. There was something so incredibly awesome about that from the very first moment that you stepped on the scene. You redefined the terms of how you were going to play this fashion game. And those who got it, got it. It was powerful. I just, I'm curious, were you a, like that day, did you know that I know it happened at Vogue as well? Was this a thing that you all sort of did? I mean, I think it was a part of us understanding that I had to be in complete control of my image. I had gotten burned by not, by not being really in control of the narrative of me. And it just became something that I knew I needed to do. It's important for me to define me to America. Yes, because I'm black, because I was the first, because there were opponents on both sides. It wasn't just Republicans. It was some of our, my husband's democratic opponents who were going to play the race card and, and use our otherness against us. So when we talked about this, that I have to show up authentically me, because if I'm going to get dinged, it's going to be dinged. I'm going to get dinged. It's going to be the real me that's going to get dinged. It's going to be the clothes I chose to wear, not somebody else's clothes. It's going to be the words I said and not what somebody put in my mouth. It's going to be the America understanding me. Like me, don't like me, but don't like the made up version of me. That I think I would have had more trouble with than, you know, than the opposite. So also, I just respectfully cannot imagine you showing up to a photo shoot and trying on clothes for two hours or whatever before a shoot. Like I had a practicality. I have never seen that. Anything even close to that occur. I mean, it's just not, it's not prepared. What if she didn't like anything? What if nothing fit? What if they had a wrong measurements? Like there's just a million things that could go wrong. Also, given what era this is, is she campaigning? Like is she going to come to a shoot? And do you know what I mean? Like, these are the things that maybe differentiate her as a public figure first lady, incoming first lady from a celebrity. I don't know, but like I would just never even imagine something like that happening. Yeah. Well, it's interesting that you're contextualizing it in this way because, you know, that cover was June 2008 for the September, that was when we shot it. It was for the September issue cover, which is typically the fashion issue. And so it felt like you had already understood the power of what you put on your body and what it can do. And so it was genius for you to say, I'm going to control my narrative. I'm going to control my image and I'm going to do it respectfully. You know, the story that we wanted to tell was inclusion, which started with the selection of Jason Wu to design my, my, my both of my inaugural gowns. It's an opportunity. It's an American opportunity. So we wanted to make sure that dressing knee, which was a big deal. We knew became an American opportunity. It became something that all designers that could aspire to if they were ready for it. Right. So I have the body that is going to sort of showcase it. I felt it was my responsibility as the first lady of the United States of America to wear American designers. That was an easy thing. We never ran out of wonderful things to do. And we believed in the immigrant story of the, which is, which is part of the American story. I will say it and continue to say it. We are all immigrants in one way, shape, or form. It is the foundation and the basis of this country. So being able and that is so true in the fashion industry, we would not have the clothes on our backs if it were not for immigrants coming here with tools and skills and the abilities as all of our ancestors did to make this country what it is today and what better way to hail them than to bring up the Jason Wuse and the Probles and the Maria Cordenéhoes. I mean, what a powerful way to talk about fashion without talking about fashion. There was a mic. If I could just, I would just, right. And I was so riveting. And I remember vividly living through those, that was fashion history. And while you weren't trying to make it the story, it was a huge story for folks like me in the fashion industry and for anyone. I mean, speaking about your influence on fashion, I think about that White House black market dress that you wore on the view. It was I think $137, $127, $24 or something sold out at their three over 300 stores. And then there was a two and a half month wait list for that dress. I mean, the incredible influence that you had cannot be understated, although I know that you all are so intentional. And that's what I love about hearing more about your process. This episode of IMO is brought to you by Indeed. Typically, your college major is unlikely to be your profession. And that's certainly the way it was for me. 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So for me as an outsider, your becoming book tour was really kind of this defining moment in your style evolution where you stepped out and said, honey, I am going to wear the Balenciaga boots that are thigh high, that are sparkly with the yellow dress. And like that was another moment that blew up the internet. And I remember like the girl is going, wow, I mean everybody was talking about that look, that moment. So we have to talk about the Balenciaga boots. And just really beyond the boots, was there like a post White House meeting, was there a mood board? Was there like a decision where your like my handcuffs are off? Let's go crazy. Let's have more fun. Let's be bolder. What was that conversation like? I mean, really the becoming book tour we talked and I had put together some images and things because it was different. You know, it was like, oh, we're going into a new era and the book itself was like massive. I mean, it was a movement. It was unprecedented. So when we spoke about the tour, I mean, I just remember us being aligned. It was like pants, suits. Because we had done so many dresses for lady dresses. I thought, yeah, enough of that. There's so much about a dress that defines a dress or skirt that defines the role of first lady and has for so many years. So it was like, we're not going to do any except for the Balenciaga, but we're not going to do any of that. We're going to do these like strong suits and sort of updated pants and tops. And so really that was like the starting point and our conversation. And then I don't know if you want to say more on that. So reserved about the most fun part of your style evolution. But it was fun. And I will say it was it was really a lot of fun. It started with that. It was like, okay, we're free. Did you feel that liberation? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, you can feel it. And we talked about it. And also I felt like I wanted my team to feel like they could play. I mean, for eight years, some of the most creative people work with me. And we were in a bit of a box. It was a great box. I always felt good. Always look good. It was a well-managed box, not mad at the box, but it was still a box. And knowing that when you have creative people who have, but not you can't do this. No, no, no, no, no. That's no fun for them. Thiefling. It's stifling. So I was like, okay, Mayor. You know, yeah. I'm pretty out there. So there's still things I feel like I can't do. I mean, I'm not. You know what I mean? I don't feel like I don't misschannel bomb. I'm just totally free. No. But yeah, I mean, it was cool. A lot of things that she hadn't worn. And some that she had, I mean, she'd worn some fabulous suits in the White House too. I think it was just the whole energy of the tour. And then just how beautiful everything was. Like every suit, every pant, like we, how'd you get her in those boots? Like, oh, yeah, the boots. Okay, the boots are not in the cage. I have to include her. So yeah, she did. Yeah, she showed me the boots and I was like, oh my God, they took my breath away. My two, right? This is Obama. Good. That whole look was like a big process. Like all of these looks, it's not like, oh, I went to the store, picked it up through and the bag came over. Like, it's a whole process. Okay. So that, it was like, Belenciaga Spring 2019 show. I saw there was a version in blue and a version in yellow. And I was like, hmm, the yellow is kind of different. Like the yellow, there's something a little, tacky about it in a way. I don't know. And that was probably the part she was like, she'll never go for the yellow. But also, and by the way, this was like just for people that are following fashion and this was pre any Belenciaga scandal, pre any Demna scandal. But so I got the look. It was a skirt and a top actually it wasn't addressed. And we fit that look like five times. Like there's certain looks that we would fit over and over and over again because. We would fit it right to get it right and also with the calendar, sometimes it would be like, maybe it's for this and then that thing would happen. We went with something else. Right. So then we come in the next fitting. So it was like, maybe it's for this. So I really thought it was pieces. I never thought it was going to be worn. I was like, it's never going to be worn. I'm going to have to write them an email and be like, I'm so sorry. Like, we love it. I hope she can write in the future. But it just didn't, you know, she's got the letter. I was, yeah, I mean, I've written that before. But I had a different shoe with it. And I, I think at first, because I didn't want to pull that boot if it was just going to like, she was going to be like, no, I don't feel like putting that on. Like, so I showed you a picture of it. And then I brought the boots at the next fitting and the things with the thing with those boots that are you have to, you know, kind of slide them down, the fabric down and then put your foot in and put it on like a pair of pantyhose. So it takes a minute, you know, in backstage before a big appearance. You didn't always want to be bothered doing stuff like that. So there's many, there's many a joke. Like, you know, you get something pretty and then you put it on and then I'm like, this is ridiculous. There's no way. So it's like, I can write a verse on the paper on paper. You said, yes. I was like, I didn't say no. Right. There were also those. I could do that. I could do that. But in your mind, are you thinking, there's no way I'm getting these pretty much because I'm used to being disappointed. Yes. I'm like, she's not going to do it. I'm going to get it. She's not going to do it. But I'll get it. Fine. So you're writing the email in your mind. All right. But roughly, we couldn't get it. Yeah. Get it on like cross the line. Once she puts a mom, she's not going to want to do this. So, but yeah, we just, I brought him in. We tried the mom. We prepped them. So we knew how to get them on because it's true. There's like a time limit. And once that time limit is up, the item is out the door. So with your hopes and dreams. Exactly. So I'm like always looking at stuff and sometimes I don't get it right. I'm like, okay, I got to make sure I get this on quickly. Like a science experiment. Yes. But she, and I will make fun of a crazy thing that I'm putting on. I'm like, look, this is ridiculous. It's like, and I was making fun of the boots. You know, all while we were putting them on the first time, because it took a lot of work. I mean, because if it would be better if they were all just the stretch material, which I love. And I got a suggestion. And I love a boot like that. And I love a boot like a second to boots at some point. I just, well, I'm very into boots. I love boots more than I love stockings, right? So all throughout the White House, cold weather, Meredith knew that I wanted a boot, a tight fitting boot that like hugged the leg. That was the inspiration for the second inauguration parade look. You know, I have these amazing boots that I wanted them to fit like a glove, right? So that they wouldn't add bulk to your leg, but where would Annie go? Which was ridiculous. I was freezing cold. I was freezing cold. I was freezing cold. I was freezing cold. So I was like, don't want to be cold anymore. So I was very into boots. So she knew she could get me on the boot, but it was just putting them on that was nuts. Right. And I was like, do I want to have my hair on and am I putting this skirt on first? It just didn't make sense. But once they got on, then they were amazing, right? So I thought, okay, New York, New York is a play like I would New York. You are done that in just a parker. Yeah, it carried a branch on like that. Yeah, it would, it would be fashion over the top, right? Yes. I mean, I wouldn't do that those boots in Colorado, right? I mean, you also think, you know, you want to be special, but I was like, we could get away with this in the New York show at the big enough arena. The boots won't look like, you know, a sore thumb in the middle of a, you know, because I also think like that is like, is it too much? No, it is. It stole the show though, even in the massive, on that massive Barclays stage, like, there wasn't even a good picture of the boots. Like, there wasn't a lot of good pictures of those boots on the internet. Did you really? Yeah. The pictures weren't even that great. Like, so I was surprised that people even really registered it because they were like, from the side, you know, they weren't like posed really super, super high definition clear photos. Right. People even going to like see this. Like, oh, it's in our minds. Yeah. In our memories. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. I know Barock is like, where are those boots anyway? Oh, there. Uh oh. Mr. Obama. He enjoyed those boots as well. I don't know what you're doing. Those boots. They're in the back. I was in a museum somewhere like that. There you go, man. There you go. Have a, have some fun in those boots. But those are the boots. Yes. We also need to talk about the Stuart White's Mim boots during Biden's in our celebration because you told me a fun story about these boots that's fun. It's fun. Yeah. It's fun. It's a little dark. But I do think it's relatable in this moment. And I think just it speaks to your practicality. It's a Capricorn. Yeah. But also this moment that we're in where we all are sort of feeling a certain uncertainty in the air that maybe you felt at the inauguration just after we all know what happened. January 6th. And there was this feeling in the air of we might have to run. Yeah. So tell us the story behind the boots that you put her in that day. And what was going through your mind? This is the psychology piece of your brain. Well, so I mean, it's the whole look first of all. So we did Sergio Hudson and he's amazing. It was such it was just that moment to me outside of any of the context of the politics. It was such an amazing moment for him as a designer. And I was so honored to be a part of it. But we had prepped that look around the demands and uncertainty of inauguration day anyway, which are really about being cold. So I had like multiple sweaters with multiple closures and multiple layers underneath. And everything you could think of in case it was this temperature or that temperature. And then the shoe I had, Stuart Weitzman-Pomps or the boots. And when we were in the fitting and talking about it, she said to me, I want to be able to run. I was like, whoa, okay, wow, that's intense. But I had already, you know, I already prepared a selection of options. So it was like I had them there, but just putting it into that framework. And I didn't go to the inauguration. You only went with one person, I think. And even that was by design, right? Yeah. For your own safety. Yeah. So that was different because normally we would always go. Like hair make up, me, we would always go to a big event like that and be in the holding case. There was any issues to touch her up and anything like that. And so yeah, that was a crazy year. And she was wearing a mask as part of the inaugural festivities, which part of the ensemble are the masks? But it really is. And not to like, not minimizing or anything amassed, but it did sort of set the outfit because nothing like a mask. It really did bring all the photos here. It was like, but without that mask, it would have just been a suit. It would have been good. It would have been good. But that really like, it just brought all your attention to those elements in a way that they've looked hadn't happened before because that hadn't happened with her publicly before. So that was custom made, Christie Rilling shot out. Okay. Well, luckily you did not have to run that day. Thank goodness, but we were prepared. And on that half of the fashion story, one of the fashion stories was be ready. Be ready to be able to do the job. Right? And I would never in that moment say. The job is I would never in that moment be like, Oh, no, you really have to wear this orange silhouette. Because it's so great. Like, I would never, do you know what I mean? So I think that why you lasted all these years, girl, that is one of the points of this conversation of like, why these things matter more? Why these are bigger? Why you can't, we've talked several times about being bogged down by different elements, whether it's fashion or haters or whatever. It's so easy to get bogged down by all of that. And the other part of the story is was my comfort. Right? And that's a big part of 100%. The fashion, fashion message to women, to all people, but to women in particular, because, you know, fashion can be fun, but it could also be a straight jacket. Right? I mean, you know, when tiptoe and around and heels that hurt your feet in clothes that are slipping off in things that don't stay up in corsets that, and I've done it all. The chain link, Versace gown, beautiful, one of my favorite gowns. That gown weighed about, I found out, and it's in the book, but I can't recall. 10, 15 pounds. Yeah, yeah, it's in there. And I had to wear that for three hours, stand in a photo line. I had to, you know, dance in it. I had to, you know, it's not a one runway look. It's not a going on the red carpet and sitting at the Emmys. I mean, I'm working at a state dinner. And luckily, I'm in shape. So I've done it, you know, I've done it all, right? And I believe in that beauty and sometimes the impractical beauty of fashion, right? It is fun, but like for most of us as women, I want to promote us feeling good in the clothes. Not the, I want to wear the clothes. I don't want the clothes to wear me. And I think, you know, I want to encourage women to, you know, make choices about fashion that are good for them. And I think that that's something that we did for eight years and beyond that I didn't wear it. And then if I didn't love it, if I didn't feel wonderful in it because that's the way a fashion disappears and becomes a part of your story. Like it's not wearing you. And so because of that, I could focus on kids. I could focus on the military families. I could focus on the people who were right there in front of me. I could hug somebody, wrap my arms around somebody. Have somebody cry on my shoulder and not be worried about what I was wearing. And that helped, that helped with my authenticity, right? Because ultimately I'm a woman who loves clothes, but I'm a woman who loves. And that to me, Meredith helped me find clothes that let that shine through. And I want, I says women to embrace that, to have that be the first thing that we think about when we put something on. Does it make us feel like we can love? Does it make us feel like we can just be our true selves? And I had to be that for eight years. I couldn't do the job wearing some costume or tiptoeing around and something that was on point, but not me. And the brilliance of Meredith Coupe was that, and that's maybe this is her psychology degree. I think a lot of it is her upbringing. That was a question I forgot the answer. But I think what Meredith did for me, what makes her such a special stylist. And I know she does this for other clients because I have friends who work with her as well. People have all backgrounds, all sizes, all occupations is that she saw me. She learned who I was. She knows who I am. I think the show is something about Meredith. There's something about Meredith. I don't know how you are a magical unicorn in the world of fashion. Thank you both so much. What a beautiful fashion love story. And I'm just so honored to be able to be part of documenting this moment in history, these many fashion moments throughout history and Meredith to introduce you to America. Hello. You're coming married. You're just married. I'm so thankful. Nothing about marriage. Well, this has been such a delight. Thank you both so much. You're amazing. I love you, just so much. Thank you both. Love you. Love you. Thank you. You