361: My Sit Down with Nancy Grace: Kohberger Posed Victims Bodies? Monique Tepe Shot MULTIPLE Times?!

Hey true crime besties welcome back to an all new episode of serialously. Hello and welcome back to serialously. Today I am joined by somebody you all know former prosecutor never afraid to tell it like it is host of crime stories with Nancy Grace Nancy Grace welcome to the show. Thank you for inviting me. It's a real honor. Well thank you so much for joining I actually have so many questions about cases that you have covered in the past in your career that you are currently ongoing investigating and covering so I want to just jump right in and I actually want to start with the news in Idaho and Brian Coburger because as we all know Brian Coburger pleaded guilty back in July of 2025 to the brutal slang of the four college students and we all knew that it was extremely horrifying what he did and the manner of deaths and everything that happened however a newly unsealed document was released that outlines just how barbaric it truly was. It indicates that Brian Coburger stabbed these victims over 150 times and I have a very specific question I want to ask you but before I get into that I just want to outline how they broke it down. It was starting with Kaylee Consolves she was stabbed 38 times 24 which were to her face scalp and neck. Maddie Mogan 28 times 13 of which were to her face scalp and neck. Zana Cronodal 67 times 23 of which were to her face scalp and neck and Ethan Chapin 17 times four of which were to his face scalp and neck. Now we know that Zana fought back we heard that early on based on her injuries and just how horrible that crime scene looked and that also explains why her injuries were nearly double if not triple the other victims but my question for you is why did Brian focus so many of the stabbing on their face scalp and neck area. Any again thank you for inviting me that is a question the prosecution does not have to answer at trial the question why. That goes to motive the state is never required to prove motive because it asked the prosecutor to go into the mind of literally an evil killer a lot of people don't use the word evil or the devil or Satan but I think that all of that is personified in Brian Cobrager why did he do what he did we'll never know but I can tell you this Annie I have seen multiple cases where the victim is attacked specifically in the face often we see women attacked in the genitals the breast the crotch area the vaginal area which indicates a sex motivation even if the victim isn't sex assaulted and a lot of killings related to hatred of homosexuals of gay people you will see their genitals mutilated which gives you a very strong indicator of motive they are driven by hatred of either misogyny or hatred because of someone because they're gay but again the state doesn't have to prove that this is what my takeaway is he was destroying the beauty of these victims. Kieli Gonsalva's was stabbed so many times in the face that her teeth were stabbed out of her mouth her teeth were around her and that's what mr. Mrs. Gonsalva's Stephen Christie have to think about I don't know how they think about anything else and then when you look at Zanna's 67 stab wounds because she dared to fight back and in the midst of this Annie you have the roommate hearing Cobrager say I'm here to help you and then stabbing the victim multiple times in the face destroying their beauty wiping out their identity. It's heinous it's evil and to me it goes to motivation which will be one of the first things I argued to I would argue to the jury if we had had that opportunity and we're not given a weak prosecutor that didn't have the spine to take the case to trial. You bring up an interesting point regarding the hatred and that being a potential motivation and destroying their beauty and early on a lot of people I think assumed that Kieli was Brian's target and that he went there specifically for her not only because of the level of injuries but also because of the blunt force trauma and the facial injuries that caused her facial disfigurement but now that we have seen the autopsy results and the way that this attack was so brutal on all of the victims do you think that with the evidence that's been made public she was the target do you think there was a target a specific target or he just wanted to go on a rampage. I don't know if rampage and I've used it myself would be the right description because a rampage seems to indicate a blind wild criminal spree this was not blind this was pre-planned he had stopped these victims not necessarily in the traditional sense of the word but he had driven by their home over and over and over I believe he stopped them online I believe that he went into their places of work maybe even onto their campus to spy on them as it turns out when he first moved to Pullman he went to a pool party and at that pool party he took a lot of pictures of women and spoke to them at the pool party some of those at least one of those women were online friends with the victims I don't know if that's how he first became aware of them but likely and the stalking began so this was not a wild blind rampage this was very well thought out who was the victim you can't go by the number of wounds alone because you see Zanna was 67 wounds that doesn't mean she was the original victim that means most likely that she fought back and sustained more injuries who was the original victim we don't know but I also know that co-worker had shown an interest and this is from his digital footprint in sex assaulting women that were passed out were comatose were asleep or in this case asleep and he came on to something very very different they were awake and he had to fight tooth and nail to murder them I don't know what his original plan was nor do I care he murdered them and I don't think one day goes by that some ding dong online doesn't say why do you insist co-workers guilty he was framed or he had a code of fanatol or a cop was he pled guilty under oath in a court of law he did it that infuriates me as well I think that that group has now dubbed themselves the pro-burgers and they advocate for his innocence that don't care don't care what they call themselves I'm with you I'm with you sing it to somebody that cares now speaking of him not perhaps expecting what he what he saw when he went into the home and expecting people to be awake and being caught off guard a forensic scientist from Brian's defense team has said that Kayleigh and Maddie were posed in bed together after being killed specifically that Kayleigh was moved from her head being on the pillow to on top of Maddie and then the comforter was pulled over them I thought it was really interesting that he used the word posed because I think that it could perhaps be that or that Brian was trying to conceal the crime that he had committed so that when people walked into the room perhaps it would be a little bit you know delayed and seeing what had really transpired but what is your opinion in hearing that posed is a term of art in the criminal world it staged is a term of art in the criminal world which means that the scene was tampered with it's really all that means but I agree with your analysis that they were posed why put one female victim on top of the other that's posing that's in the traditional sense anytime you tamper with the scene whether you turn off the lights whether you put a blanket over the victim's face which I've seen in many many murder cases I had one case that I looked at where a mom was murdered in her home she was found on her back completely naked but the killer had taken a wicker bathroom basket trash can and put it over her head what a demeaning way for your body to be found by homicide detectives a scene in many cases where a sweater or a blanket was put over the victim's face or over their body I worked on a case where a victim was covered in leaves and the delphi double murders of Abby and Libby for instance the girls were covered with limbs tree limbs and twigs and brush you ever seen a dog circle three or four times before it sits down have you ever seen that Annie yes I have why why I don't know why but I know dogs have been doing it since thousands of years before we came to the world it's instinctive did co-worker intend to cover up their faces don't know don't care but he did I think it's something instinctive that you know there's a lot of theories and the killer doesn't want the victims looking at them they don't want to see their faces after in this case disfiguring them they are repulsed by the victims they are repulsed by the victims as they look in death it could be any number of things but what does it mean to me all I care is about its probative value what can I prove I learned in court there's there's if you could see the stacks of paper on my desk right now and I'm working on have been working on the tepid story just stacks and stacks of facts that I've amassed all of them are not probative they can't prove something in court for me if I can't use it to prove something it doesn't exist I need every scrap every centella every shred of evidence to prove something this proves something this proves to me that the murder was not random this wasn't somebody that just broke in to burglarize or rape and went oh and then killed the victims and ran no this killer took time to stage the same whether it was just turning off the lights or moving the body or putting a blanket over the face it doesn't matter that staging that means typically not random it was a random burglar that lost it and killed the victims they would run they wouldn't take time to stage the scene not random which is probative it proves to me was someone that picked out these victims to kill it's probative that's interesting and it's interesting point you make because based on your experience as a prosecutor and your knowledge of the case what do you believe Brian coberger's M.O. is there's been the term in cell thrown around as well as far as who he was and what could have potentially motivated him what do you think do you think he just wanted he had a thirst to kill and he had been planning this he wanted to be smarter and prove he was smarter what do you think it is I've thought about this a lot which of course none of this is probative but I have thought about a lot because I think I was about five years into felony prosecutions nothing but felonies and at that point I developed a an expertise I was dealing with nothing but hard court typically murder serial murder mass murder serial rape serial child molestation any type of arson which is extremely difficult to prove and I was sitting in court looking over the defendant the jury wasn't there of course because I wouldn't look at the defendant from the jury and I was thinking why did he leave this wake of pain behind him you know like a speedboat leaving a wake that would touch so many lives and I can speak to the truth of that my fiancee was murdered shortly before a wedding I dropped out of school I was my dream of becoming a Shakespeare literature professor was over my I my dream of being a wife and a mother and having a family over destroyed and because of that I over 20 years passed before I could bring myself to have that dream again and I was an older pregnant mom highly highly risky and my daughter Lucy and I almost died because I gave birth so late in life my little girl it affected my life my decisions my career as it is the way I raise my children the way I see the world everything so I was sitting in court looking and thinking why would you leave that wake of pain in ruin so many lives and then it hit me like a thunderbolt why ask why you're wasting your time that said I will entertain your question as to mode it think about co-burger who was he before the murders his sister I described him as a fat slob we don't use the f-word in our home that her words not mine a heroin addict couldn't get a job tried repeatedly to get out with police department so what what Barney five couldn't get on he had to prove himself he had to be a star of something so he began his studies in criminal procedure in criminology he studied to the point where he was hired as a teaching assistant gets into a graduate degree program at WSU Washington State University in Pullman and he conducted all of these interviews with hearted criminals about their motivation and how they got caught and how they targeted their victim and what went through their mind at the time of the murder and had picked felons that had committed violent crimes like rape like homicide almost as if he was trying to live like curiously through them and I believe that the four victims were guinea pigs he wanted to prove he could do it and not get caught he wanted to feel what they felt the other criminals and he wanted to be master of his craft that's why I think he did it that's why I think you pick these victims and a deep deep sogyny hatred of women yeah maybe because he couldn't get a woman I don't know why he hated women but he obviously did so you mix all that together and you get a devil's brew personified by Brian at K burger may he rot in hell amen and he obviously was not smart enough to get away with it and the evidence that even has been made public to this day has been overwhelming which leads me to my last question regarding K burger and then I want to jump into the tape case which you had mentioned earlier January is always that reset moment for me new year fresh energy and really looking at what actually supports my health and if you've ever stood in the supplement aisle just feeling completely overwhelmed you're not alone trust me story of my life I feel like the supplement industry is honestly this like low trust category it's slightly regulated labels can be misleading and you're kind of just expected to take companies at their word and that's exactly why I partnered with momentous they have built a high trust brand in a low trust space they've done this by committing to what they call the momentous standard quality testing and transparency that's done in the right way every product is independently certified by NSF for sport or informed sport which means it's rigorously tested for contaminants band substances and label 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district attorney's position that's why you get paid you don't get paid to hide in your office and take take cheap please that is not what is expected of you so effing do it get in there and try the case overwhelming evidence of guilt there's never a slam dunk do I have to say oh Jay Simpson but there was so much evidence in this case I mean if you're gonna have the death penalty and I'm not preaching pro anti death penalty right now but if you're in a jurisdiction with the death penalty and you are the elected DA you're just a house pet sitting in your office you're afraid to get out there and try the case get in the ring get dirty sweat bleed but try the case I mean I don't know if they reelect him it's on them yeah I know so many people were angered with that and still are angry with that so I thank you for sharing your opinion on that I want to move into the tape a murders you mentioned you have stacks and stacks of paperwork regarding this case and this is relatively oh perfect I have a lot of questions now for anybody who's listening who's a bit unfamiliar back on December 30th 2025 Spencer and Monique tape were gunned down in their home while their one year old and four year old children were inside the home luckily left physically unharmed however weeks went by without any arrests until finally an arrest was made and it was Monique's ex-husband of nearly a decade ago Michael McKee 39 years old which shocked everybody I think to be like it's been 10 years almost since you divorced how long has he been in the picture has he been harboring a grudge and court documents do allege a history of threats and abuse stemming from Michael toward Monique not only during their marriage but after their marriage as well and the probable cause affidavit that was just released regarding the arrest and things regarding this case it showed that Michael McKee was actually at the house on December 6th which was 24 days before the murders happened now luckily Spencer and Monique were at a football game that night so nothing happened however based on your knowledge and what you have been covering and looking into do you think that Michael was there casing the area getting familiar or do you think he was intending to actually kill them 24 days earlier um I think you need their movements I don't know if he hacked into their email I don't know if something was mentioned on social media that they were going to the championship playoff in Indianapolis the big 10 playoff I think he knew that they were gone he was caught on a neighbor surveillance video entering the cartilage which is a legal term of art meaning the area surrounding your home or your domicile could be department it could be camper it could be a tent what is cartilage it could be a garage it could be a portico it could be a tool shed it could be a um disconnected garage oh it could be a dollhouse could be a doghouse in the backyard you typically under the law do not need a separate search warrant to search the cartilage but this is what I think happened looking at the outside of the tepihome and Naken Spencer shared with her two children there was an enclosed back I'll call it a yard but it was bricked over there's a little bit of grass surrounding the brick and it was from what I can see Annie was the the fence was attached to the house here's the house there's a little bit of fence on either side which is attached to the house and that fence goes around the back and completely encloses the back area from looking at the wedding photos where I'm a nique and Spencer are standing in the backyard yes they were married and murdered in that same home that fence looks to be at least for to five feet tall and it's solid you can't see through it the affidavit states that surveillance reveals Dr. Michael McKee the murder defendant entered the cartilage of the home that doesn't mean he was seen entering the front door what does that tell me he was seen getting over the fence into the backyard area such as it is on the back of the home there is a door entrance and either a basement door or window entrance and he stayed in there for hours which means to me he got access into the home proper what did he do in there I don't know go through an underwear drawer look at scrapbooks look at the wedding album go in the children's room he had on his dating website he wanted children and as he sat gnashing his teeth and twisting his tail he watched meneek remarry to the man of her dreams mr. right not mr. right now and he have two beautiful children he probably saw gristening photos they're telling what he saw now meneek did not keep a social media profile she's probably too scared to but it leaked out family members friends with post pictures and the wedding video was posted by a relative how many times do you think you went through that but I believe the neighbor surveillance video caught him jumping the fence and then disappearing and not coming back out for hours he was in that home he got the lay of the home he probably had already looked up the floor the floor plan he probably had already looked at the home on realtor.com or zillow or something I imagine he knew the layout before he went in but he stayed in there hours luxuriating probably smelled a perfume I don't know what he did but he knew where he was going the night of the murders I think he knew they would be gone and I think he went in to look around the home now this is why I think he knew that they would be gone that night at the big 10 championship Annie meneek was there with her husband Spencer and a group of friends the friends go hey where is meneek and Spencer said words to the effect oh she went back to the hotel this was at halftime and a very expensive ticket game she never came back she was so upset and they go what was wrong and he said something to do with her ex-husband it's no coincidence that he's skulking around in her home and she gets upset something to do with her husband and leaves the game halftime and goes to her hotel room upset distraught I don't know what he did did he send a text going hey you left your bedroom light on or hey I just checked to see if the coffee was still on or hey I love the nursery for the babies there's no telling what he said to her or if he said anything but something at that exact time got her really upset and she left the festivities so he knew they were gone oh it bombshell everyone thinks that Spencer was shot multiple times and meneek was shot once that is not true according to this document we've on earth this was a document filed Jan 11, 2026 Franklin County Municipal Court state V Michael David McKee quote complainant being Deoli Sworn states the above name defendant Michael McKee honor about the 30th day of December did purposefully with prior calculation and design cause the death of another meneek tepe by shooting the victim multiple times with a firearm she was shot multiple times to according to this document now which means to me he unloaded the gun on both of them what oh absolutely I do I want to ask you this really quick Nancy based on your experience not only covering cases but prosecuting cases have you ever seen a case in which somebody harbors such a grudge and resentment for a decade long before striking in a domestic homicide I investigated and personally prosecuted the husband murdered the wife hit her in the head set the house on fire millionaire I might add beautiful home when fire trucks arrived he was allanging all our reminisce and the yard across the street this is like 3 a.m. as I recall he was per completely dressed khaki's belt she's wallet glasses and he talked to them for like three or four minutes went oh yeah my wife's in there he had hated her for years but I'd have to say no because I do not believe that defendant had planned the murder for so long and had nursed a grudge for so long I would say Dr. McKee is the first one I've seen that nurse is hatred for nearly a decade and during that time he threatened to kill her we are now learning that he raped her during the marriage and choked her during the marriage horrible marriage horrible horrible man what advice would you give to the Franklin County as she takes on her first felony murder case honestly let the vets try the case she has never tried a homicide case no offense she's a great lawyer but this would be her first homicide prosecution she's third chair just let these two guys that have tried many many homicides let them do what they do be secure and you are the boss of them if you see something going sideways which I doubt you're in charge but I would not trust this to a first time homicide prosecutor you asked me and I'm telling you I didn't lead a prosecution on my first case achy double n o the first case I ever tried was a shoplifting a felony shoplifting and guess what the guy didn't even steal anything I had to beg and plead to the jury getting for attempted shoplifting he did after all cut a CD player off the display and stick it down his pants and his crotch do you do that when you go shopping no he was trying to shoplift it was a desperate plea but I did get a conviction of a attempted shoplifting look I offered the guy probation but he had such a long rap sheet any conviction would have triggered gel times they're like hey I'll roll the dice you're new you'll probably lose no I did not try a hot double homicide as my first case no you work up to that she's a great lady she's smart she's talented please let these two people that have veteran season homicide prosecution let them do their thing please and the rest will fall into place she's smart I she didn't win for nothing okay so let them go well I want to switch gears for a quick second and go back in time a little bit to the Casey Anthony oh dear which is obviously I know I know all right look are you tired of waking up hungover and worrying about what happened the night before because if you're trying to be 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long day or out socializing with friends willies offers the kind of feeling that makes good company even better so much so that willies sold out three times in the first six months with over 50,000 happy customers and they just restocked willies ships directly to your doorstep to in over 40 states so order now at drinkwillies.com and use code serialously for 20% off your first order and free shipping on orders over $95 and enjoy life in the high country it's obviously a very notorious case the majority of people feel the justice was not served in that case I personally still remember exactly where I was when that verdict was read and just the visceral reaction I had of just disappointment and anger and frustration and you your coverage during that case was huge are you really iconic I'm just going to use that word because it truly was and so I do have quite a few questions for you about that starting with out of all of the interviews that you conducted while covering that case what one still stands out to you the most I guess one of the interviews it stands out the most would be the interview with the judge if sat back and watched it all unfold judge belvin knows that top on case the Anthony is responsible for kill his death and I can only imagine what it felt like to watch that whole train wreck happen in front of you another thing that struck me was when I first met Cindy and George Anthony in person and they had been portrayed so badly so horribly in the press where the media would come and get on their yard and they had lost their little baby their precious pearl Kelly she was like their daughter to them because taught mom Casey Anthony did not take care of Kelly they took care of their her they bought her food her pull ups pay for her clothes she lived with them so did free loader Casey Anthony she was their world and she's found and a trash bag 10 houses away from their home and a swampy trashy area that's what they were dealing with and then their own daughter being suspected and tried for it they were at the worst moment of their life people dissected everything about them everything they had ever done wrong or perceived to be wrong and when I met them they were delightful smart kind caring people and to think that George Anthony got dragged through the mud the way taught mom dragged her own father through the mud that her mother got up on the stand in committed perjury to try and save taught moms life I feel so badly for them another another interview that really sticks out of my mind is when I spoke with the bodyguards so to remember taught mom went to jail first on minor offenses I don't know was it check cashing or I just something like that. Check cashing forging the checks and then yeah she started lying about her job in Disney World yep so she was in jail on a minor offense before she was arrested for murder and she made bond and got out the bonding company had to stay with her so she would not have scorned because everybody needs you're gonna get charged with murder and of course many people in that position would try to leave the country he told me she's been in jail right right and Kelly hasn't been found her body hasn't been found she's still missing she comes home from the jail they walk into the Anthony home the first thing she says it's not what do you know about Kelly where is my daughter what's being done the first thing she says she walks in she goes what's her supper I mean really I'm not a shrink but boy would I like to analyze that if I had to know how and another thing that he the bell bondsman observed so many people did this day go oh George Anthony did it he did not do it number one but the bodyguard observed George Anthony jump on taught mom and push her against who all goes where's Kelly where is Kelly what you do with her if he knew where she was I don't think he would have had that outburst George is a lot of things a lot of good things but he ain't an Oscar nominated actor okay he did that frustration in anger in pain and loss he wanted to find out where she was and if you look at the jailhouse interviews videos of their conversations you know with the glass between them every time they would approach George and Cindy both would ask well you know what about Kelly she would go ballistic and unload a string of curse words at her parents so I just don't see George pushing her about Kelly's whereabouts and her reaction to that I got to me indicates George and Cindy truly did not know where Kelly was and everything they said at trial was BS everything by a said everything taught mom allowed him to say it's all BS thank you for sharing that I feel like that's something that I haven't personally heard before especially what Casey had said when she walked back into the house after being released but a couple of years ago I know you're aware of this she came out with her new documentary or docu-series on peacock of you know where the truth lies I think is what it was called where she really doubles down firm on the stance that her father George is responsible for this and she even makes further allegations which liar yeah trying to throw a hell marry but what I found was interesting is in that docu-series she also admits that Zanny the nanny never existed which I think we all collectively knew but when you heard that did you feel vindicated in a way or feel like I'm so happy she finally acknowledged that even though she still is painting George as the villain and the cause I think we all expected that and knew that but what was your take when you heard that woman you think I get validation or vindication from taught mom Casey Anthony I never watched her documentary oh good it wouldn't mean what she said and about is not worth the salt that goes in her bread to still be blaming George at this juncture I mean go away go away I don't want to hear about your sub-stack I don't want to hear you lecturing the vice president about whatever I don't want to hear you or see you in your hot pants at a bar luring in another guy what I don't care no I do not validation or vindication because taught mom Casey Anthony admitted she lied already knew she lied well let me ask you this then Nancy if you were in a room with Casey today what would you say to her would you ever even consider a sit down with her I was asked to be part of a documentary with taught mom Casey Anthony and when I learned I couldn't ask my own questions and I could not be assured that my appearance would not be altered or edited or my words changed I didn't want to do it I did not do it I also do not want to give a platform to taught mom Casey Anthony who I and many believe murdered her little girl now did she intend to commit murder in the traditional sense such as I take a gun I hold it up to you and go you're gonna die now and I pull the trigger maybe not it could have been along the lines of making her make lower form which she looked up on the computer and had Cindy take the fall for it it could have been OD her on Benadriel it could have been um giving her Benadriel and putting putting tape over her mouth and putting in the car trunk and letting her sleep and she dies from his fixation I don't know how Kelly died but I do believe it was a result of what taught mom did now how was that murder this episode is sponsored by BetterHelp February can feel like a lot everywhere you look it's flowers it's couples it's reminders that everyone else seems to have their entire love life like dialed in and figured out but the truth is a lot of us are still figuring it out whether you're single you're dating or even married or somewhere in between everybody's 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like you and I go rob a bank and you say Nancy don't shoot anybody and I go in I see a teller and go bam she's dead and you're like what did I just tell you don't kill anybody well you're on the hook for felony murder you're committing a felony robbing a bank and a death occurs whether you had anything to do with it or not I mean one of the tellers could drop over kill over with a heart attack and that could still be felony murder yes it could have been felony murder child abuse or neglect by putting her in a trunk or odying her on Ben and Drill and she died it could have been abandoned in malignant heart what is that another form of murder for instance you getting your car let's just pretend it's a a Porsche and you drive 90 miles an hour through a festival a street festival and you mow down four or five people do you know them no did you mean to kill them no but you had such an abandoned malignant heart no sympathy or empathy for the human life that's murder so there are several legal theories under which top mom could be prosecuted for murder as opposed to intentional murder I'm gonna strangle kill he dead and doing it I think that was a major flaw I don't think the jury understood all the levels and all the theories under which she was guilty but I don't want to be part of a platform letting her trash other people and giving her one sided tale of what happened without a thorough and sifting cross examination I think that's extremely commendable and fantastic I mean enough with Casey we can leave her in the garbage where she belongs I do have another question for you before we get into the wrap-up segment what are your thoughts on Ellen Greenberg's case now being re-examined do you think that her family will ever receive the justice that they're looking for I pray to my holy father in heaven that they do since I first found out about Ellen's murder deemed a suicide on the spot just like that I knew it was wrong and launched my own investigation which has taken years I even wrote a book called what happened to Ellen to explore what happened I think and I've been saying for years the only way to get the truth is for the fads to take over why at the time the local district attorney for whatever reason which is a whole line of inquiry decided not to fully investigate the case now the governor is Josh Shapiro he was connected to the DA's office at the time then he became the AG attorney general top cop and when the parents begged and screamed and pleaded and demanded that the case be reopened he's like whoa that's my old office of course we didn't do anything wrong I know those people they would never and when your friends and colleagues with people you have on blinders so again it wasn't investigated now he's the governor of course he's not going to claim the AG and the DA are responsible it did a bad job he's part and parcel of it because of his connection the only way for a full investigation to take place it for the fads to intervene and I pray to God that they are true to their word and they do it I've been screaming that you're preached to the choir I've been asking for the fads to get involved for years do I think she was yes you cannot stand yourself over 20 times in the back including severing your dura which is the protective sheath around your spine all on your own that did not happen I agree and there were so many things after the fact circumstantial yes but the fiance's uncle taking her computer the following day so many different things him calling the cousin before and I don't want bit just I don't think anybody that I have actually spoken with believes that this was a suicide so I've spoken with Ellen's mom quite a few times too and I'm hopeful that they do finally get answers as to what happened to Ellen so you are known for your hot takes you're no nonsense and you're just straight you know no bullshit opinion so I want to just get your hot take your one sentence hot take on the following people and then we're going to wrap this up very more few there was one person in the state the one civilian that had access to bam be brother a alpha m mother which is a very very powerful animal tranquilizer tranquilizer it brings down rhinos and elephants that was found is Suzanne Morphe's system that one civilian we are told that had access to that is Barry Morpheu chew on that Morpheu next. Alright Jody Areas Jody Areas the ultimate grifter and con who actually shot a bird at me in the courtroom haven't forgotten that but that said she changed her story multiple times first I wasn't there then her digital camera that caught shots of Travis Alexander during his death and her foot on the scene was found in the washer tangled up in the sheets when she was confronted with that she goes oh okay I was there but two guys dressed as ninjas came in they killed him and I got away really what farce of a crime story movie have you been watching finally she changed her story to self-defense and tried to paint Travis as a perv rot inhale Areas next. Alright my final one Scott Peterson. Oh talk about the devil this is my one of my favorite stories about Scott Peterson this says it all. So two bodies washed ashore San Francisco Bay. Detectives go to Peterson and they say Scott Peterson we have horrible news we've got an DNA match those two bodies are lacy and Connor. Within 15 minutes the detectives tell me this did not come out of trial. Scott Peterson's in the back seat he goes hey can we drive through in and out I want to double double with cheese and a shake. Really? He just found out lacy and Connor are absolutely dead their bodies on the San Francisco Bay beach washed up somehow Connor escaped lacy's uterus they're both dead the hope is gone you will never hold your son in your arms I have a son and a daughter that would be the worst thing that could ever happen to me is to be taken away from them and he wants that f and double double with cheese anything else. Yeah no thank you so much for joining today Nancy can you let everybody know where they can watch you where they can listen to you just so they can get more information to all thank you we are at crime stories on YouTube we also air first at Fox one the streaming giant we are on serious XM every single day and of course on I heart our radio home so please join us we live chat throughout the program on YouTube every single night so please join us amazing thank you so much Nancy thank you reminding me please invite me again my dear all right so I hope you guys enjoyed that episode I certainly enjoyed talking with Nancy I feel like I could have chatted with her for hours I just look I have papers and papers and papers here on my desk I had so many questions that I wanted to ask her and unfortunately we didn't get a chance to get to all of them so we are definitely gonna need to have her on for round two so let me know in the comments if you enjoyed this episode what you want me to ask Nancy next time she's on and your thoughts on these cases all right guys until the next one be nice don't kill people don't join any cults and just be a good human all right bye