Pursue & Distance Dance | Szn. 4 Ep. 7

Hi, it's Dr. Jen Kennedy. I'm a sexologist and couples therapist. The Pleasure Project podcast is about sex and relationships. So this includes discussions on desire, dysfunction, dissatisfaction, exploration of all things sex related. So sometimes I'll do toy reviews and we'll look at trends. And sometimes I'll also enlist other experts. We'll increase your insight and enhance your pleasure. So tune in. Have you ever felt like you're reaching for your partner while they're quietly slipping away? Or maybe you're the one who pulls back the minute things feel intense. If so, you're not alone. You're in one of the most universal patterns in relationships. Today we're unpacking the pursuer distance or dynamic. That moment when one partner leans in for closeness, the other needs space to breathe. It can look like conflict, rejection, or emotional whiplash, but underneath it, both people are just trying to feel safe. In this episode, I'm breaking down why this pattern happens, how it affects sex, desire, money, conflict, and parenting, and what you can do to shift the cycles from chaos to connection. So tune in. Have you ever noticed that one of you in the partnership always wants more? While the other of you always wants just five more minutes of peace. And somehow both of you think that the other one is the problem. This dynamic is incredibly common. And I see it in couples all the time, especially those couples who are under stress, who are feeling some low desire, kind of what we call where there's like mismatched desire, or maybe one or both of you sort of feels like less desire sexually or for whatever reason, if you're feeling some disconnection. And that could be because of stress, because of busyness, because of tension, because of resentment, but you're feeling disconnection. In that dynamic, this starts to happen, right? Where we call it the distancer pursuer. So if you've ever kind of followed your partner down the hallway, mid-argument, congratulations. You are the pursuer. And if you've kind of hidden out in the bathroom pretending to pee just so you could get some alone time, welcome distancers. So that's what we're going to unpack today. So buckle up, because this is going to be an episode that is going to hopefully help your dynamic, because neither of you is wrong. And I would actually say that most of us have probably been in both positions at one point or another in our relationship. Totally normal. A lot of it is actually about what's happening relationally. And typically, we also just have a temperament that's going to kind of put us in one or other position. No, it's sort of a default based on our personality, based on our attachment style. So we're going to get to all of that. So first of all, what are we talking about? Like, let me define each of the patterns. The pursuer, let's start there. That person typically seeks closeness. So they want closeness, connection, reassurance, and they want to resolve things that they want resolution in conflict. That's not to say that everybody doesn't want these things at times. But that is sort of the default position for the pursuer. They are the ones that tend to be anxiously attached. And so they're seeking closeness that feels like the best dynamic for them. They want cuddling. They want validation. They might be seeking more eye contact in conversations or certainly in conflict or post conflict. They want active connection at parties, at interactions with socializing with other people. They're seeking connection with the other person. Now, the person that tends to be more the distancer is seeking space. They like more autonomy. They tend to be more of a loner. They make their decisions more independently. And so also what they value is regulation. They want to stay regulated and they regulate more independently than through co-regulation. The pursuer wants to be regulated with the other person, whereas the distancer can regulate more independently. They also, the distancer tends to regulate and do more internal processing. So when something comes up that they need to think about and they need to make decisions, they're more likely to do that independently. They aren't going to seek out counsel in their partner in the same way. The pursuer is going to want to unpack things. They're going to want to make decisions collectively. The distancer is going to want to do that independently. They might want to do that more on their own and then bring the end decision to their partner. So just notice that difference. It's not like one's right or wrong. They're just very different. So invariably, then, that brings conflict and sometimes they're at odds. It also means that the pursuer is pursuing engagement, which sometimes exacerbates or magnifies the distancer's tendency to want to take space. And so they're not inherently wanting to push away, but because they feel like they're being pursued, sometimes that also causes them to then push away. So understand it's also relative to the dynamic of what's happening between. So note that also these roles can flip depending on what the topic is. So the topic might be sex. I certainly see this play out in the bedroom. And while some people might be more pursuant in, say, social situations or, you know, oftentimes I'll see female partners really want to unpack emotions and talk about their day and talk about future planning and that type of thing, it flips when it's in the bedroom. They might not be as interested in pursuing in that way. They might not be as kind of leading the charge in that way. And their male partners might be more interested in that, but not necessarily. I've seen it. I've seen every combination in all of these situations. Another topic where it comes up is money. Some people are very depending on your history, depending on your family's relationship to money, things can totally be different, you know, depending on how confident you are, how secure you are, how successful you have been in your relationship with money. Sometimes you pursue it and feel really good about it. And sometimes you are like, I do not want to talk about this. I do not want to be in relationship to this. I feel actually like I want to avoid it at all costs. So a lot of it, it's not like you're just born that way. You are in relationship to this based on previous experiences that create expectancies for what will happen again. Other topics that create this distance or pursue or relationship with your partner typically, in addition to sex and money, is conflict. So when you tend to get into arguments with your partner, think about it. One of you might be more conflict avoidant. Most people don't love conflict, but some people don't hide from it. I don't mind conflict. That's probably why I can be a couple's therapist. I'm also not involved in the conflict because I am not one of the people arguing, right? I'm witness to it, but plenty of therapists cannot tolerate witnessing conflict. Those people are typically not couple's therapists. But in general, I am okay witnessing conflict, whereas a lot of people are not. Think about you yourself. When conflict starts to arise, interpersonal conflict maybe with your family, with your friends, with your partner, with people at the grocery store that aren't even related to you. Can you tolerate it or does it make your skin crawl? Because conflict is a specific thing that really people are polarized on. So conflict creates a distance or pursue or kind of dynamic for people. Another area that occurs to me that also where this manifest is parenting. So if you think about how your parenting style works out and how your natural tendency is, are you a laid-back parent? Are you more of a hovering parent? Are you highly involved? What's your parenting style? Is it vastly different from your co-parent's style or from your own parent's style? Sometimes people parent the same way they were parented and sometimes it is absolutely different and intentionally a departure from how they were parented. Oftentimes it's one or the other, right? It's the exact same where it's very much a conscious departure. But if it is different than your partner or your spouse or the person you're co-parenting with, that can create conflict. Because it seems like obviously it should be done the way that you yourself want it done and they don't agree. So this can create some tensions and disagreement. But again, neither is inherently correct. It's just what you determine. So we can get stuck in this pattern and I think it's worth looking at in your relational style. So why we kind of get stuck in this? The attachment piece, we got to come back to that. And I've talked about attachment in earlier podcasts, but attachment is so important and it is definitely what's at play in this dynamic because attachment is typically determined by early caregiving and it helps us start to see the world of how we trust what we expect, who can we count on, including ourselves, but also those close to us. Are we secure? And if not, that's kind of the gold standard of like we can trust ourselves, we can count on others, we can ask for our needs, we can take risks, those types of things. So those would come up with those topics I mentioned earlier, for example, sex, money, conflict, and parenting. If you feel really secure, you can handle those types of things pretty successfully. And you can also entertain different ideas from somebody else that might not look like yours. But if you aren't secure, if you're one of the other types of attachment, then those things might feel really threatening because that's going to rattle your cage and that's going to feel like I don't want that way because that's not what I'm programmed to do. So for example, if the pursuer experiences the distancer as danger, then it amps up their strategies. So let me just unpack that a little bit. So the pursuer tends to be a little bit more anxious. So if they are activated because the distancer is pulling away or not giving them as maybe a co-parent or as a partner in one of these these aforementioned contexts, what they need, then the pursuer is likely to amplify their strategies. So for the pursuer, that's going to look like maybe more talking. It might look like increased texting, right? They're trying to activate, they're trying to reach out, they're trying to secure some interaction with their partner. They're trying to convince, they might be just trying different strategies of like, let me pull you over to my side, let me make you believe me. And it usually doesn't work that well because the words are there, but energetically we're like, nope, I can feel the desperation. I can feel that you want me to change my mind or come over to your side. And the distancer is like on a very basic animal level actually, we're like, I don't trust this. I don't want what you want me to want. And I'm not going to do it. And so these other pieces of basic instinct really kind of start to kick in a little bit. And oftentimes they dig in their heels and refuse. Because if you think about it from the reverse, the distancer experiences the pursuits of the pursuer as, right, so they amplify their withdrawal, right? That's the flip side. And that looks like avoidance, it looks like shutting down. And so oftentimes what you're going to hear from the distancer is I just need a minute, just kind of the pulling back or let me think about it or let me get back to you or that's if they have the words, it might also just be like click or no thank you or depending on thinking back to the maybe the sex or the money conflict kind of scenarios, it might be a hard line of no or within the sexual context oftentimes it's just going to be like the body shutting down and refusing to, you know, to respond. It might be the loss of an erection, it might be the loss of words, it might be turning over. We've all been there when somebody just shuts down physically and you can feel it that the lust has gone, the play has gone, the and you can feel it from her, you can feel it from him, right? It's it's there's different ways where the body's just like, mm-mm, not participating. So when the distancer happens, because the pursuer has gone too far or the way of pursuit hasn't landed, then the shutdown begins. And so the more one reaches out, the more the other one retreats. The more the other one retreats, the more the other one reaches, right? So it's a cycle that starts to happen that feels really bad. And it becomes this reinforcing cycle that is painful for both people, because it creates this sort of desperation. And it's really kind of, it's desperation for the pursuer, but it's also desperation for the distancer who's like, get away from me. And it feels really bad. So the pursuer often interprets the distancer's lower desire as rejection. We say that again, the pursuer, this is in the sexual context, but it's also in the larger relational context. The pursuer interprets the distancer's lower desire as rejection. Right? So any sort of no or no thank you, or I don't want it that way, feels like rejection. The distancer often feels pressured. They feel expectations. They feel anxiety about performance or participation or compliance. You think about it kind of in all the different contexts, right? There's a certain expectation of what they're supposed to do. The cycle can kill eroticism for sure. It also just kills general like cooperation and mood of togetherness and connection. So there's too much pressure for connection. There's no spaciousness. So then there's no desire, because desire happens when it feels playful and fun and cooperative. And that doesn't happen when there's pressure, when there's you have to, not you get to, or you want to, or you might, or there's like this expectation that, ooh, it may or may not happen. That's when the mind is like, ooh, I want to. But when it's like, you have to, or if you don't, you're going to be so disappointing, right? There goes desire out the door. So too much pressure for connection is no spaciousness for desire. But too much distance, there's no fuel for the erotic energy, right? We want some tension. We want there to be some question about whether it's going to happen, because some energy, some oxygen does make us want it, make us lean in, make us hope. But if there's too much distance, if there's too much gap, if there's not enough reciprocity, there's not enough fuel, then it dies. There's not enough erotic energy. So desire wants both space and safety. Desire wants both space and safety. Like not a stadium spotlight, right? But not a disappearing act. Kind of need a balance of both. So you have to be present, but you can't be like, like a microscope on it. Both people actually want the same thing. So this is where it kind of comes together, because we've differentiated the two positions. But here's where I'm going to show you where the overlap is. Like if we see them as two separate things, this is actually like where they overlap. They both want connection. It just means kind of different things to them, but they both do want connection. They both want security. They both want to feel like they matter, and their positions matter, their needs matter. So you do matter. It's just like how that gets interpreted and how that gets honored is what's happening within the relationship. So connection, security, and that you matter. The next thing is to not feel alone inside the relationship, because I think that neither of the partners can feel like they're doing everything for the other. Sometimes I see these couples and they're very lopsided. And I've been in relationships like that too, where it feels like you're just giving and giving. And it's like, that's not sustainable. It cannot be lopsided. And if you're in a purely pursuing relationship where you're constantly trying to prove to the other person that you're lovable and that you're worth it, eventually you're just going to give up because it's exhausting trying to prove that you're worth loving. And typically what I see in those relationships and what I've experienced is that at some point you're going to give up and you're going to walk away. And that's typically when that distance or person's like, wait, where'd you go? Wait, now I'm ready. And then you're like, sometimes that's what happens. And then the whole thing starts over, the whole dance starts over, which is kind of unfortunate. And it takes that from the from the distance or perspective, what happens is a lot of times they're so afraid to turn toward and give. But eventually, sometimes they do. And I'm always curious to see if the pursuer can actually be ready to love and to accept the love when the distance or is ready, because sometimes they're also really caught up in the pursuit. And when the distance or finally says, okay, let's do this, they're like, they weren't ready for it, right? So neither person wants to feel alone inside the relationship. And I think it's really important to recognize that even though you feel like your position is so lonely, there's is to so know that just recognize that you have opposite strategies for getting your needs met. It's not that it's not that you're, you're the only one suffering, they are in their own way. So if you can recognize that, I think it's really helpful. So just some kind of guidance for each side, I'm going to say for pursuers. Going to suggest that you slow down, slow your pursuit. Ideally, if you can self soothe before reaching for them, if you can not always depend on co-regulation, not always be seeking external validation. Like if you can know, you can find your okayness within a little bit more, that's going to be helpful because then you're coming to the partnership a little bit more whole. And that's attractive. Confidence is super sexy. So that's helpful. Ask directly for reassurance rather than launching into pursuit behaviors. So if you know you need specific feedback or even if it's reassurance, just ask for what you need directly. But this sometimes like kind of like hidden back behavior is exhausting to witness and to be on the receiving end of. So if you can just be a little bit more direct, but ideally also fill your own cup sometimes that's really helpful. Also practice pausing before pursuing and ask yourself, is this a need for connection or a need for regulation? So do you actually want to connect or are you trying to just regulate yourself? Because if it is for regulation, try to do that yourself first. Connection is awesome. External regulation, not ideal. Ideally, you're doing that yourself. For distances, the other side of things, the people that are a little more avoidant, I would say name your need for space clearly and kindly. So rather than just disappear, no ghosting, that kind of thing, name your need for space, but do it clearly and kindly. So it isn't vague and confusing and you don't just disappear on people because that really feels bad. Let's see, what else? I want you to be present for this. So something like I need 10 minutes so I can stay connected rather than shut down. So if you can give up a bit of expectations and guidance to your partner, I think that's going to be really helpful. And if you do need to step away, if you need to go take a walk, say you're in a conflict, that's fine, but give some containment to it. So say when you're going to be back or say what you need so that they know when, what to expect. And so it doesn't just feel like it goes on and on because that feels really anxiety producing for a partner. So commit to return and build trust through the follow through. Do what you say you're going to do rather than just sort of being gone and them not knowing if and when you're going to return. Also give microbids for closeness. So that might look just little gestures like a touch on the shoulder, a check-in text midday, something like that. Eye contact, like a glance at a party. That means so much to a partner. It's not that big a deal, but if you can try to remind yourself just these little check-in behaviors, every once in a while mean a lot. And I know they're like a heavy lift for a distance or type person, but it really, really helps strengthen the relationship and it builds a lot of trust and closeness. So I think for both partners, creating explicit agreements. So part of this is making sense. And this is some of the work sometimes I do with couples is like, okay, what does this behavior mean? Or if this situation comes up, this is how we're going to handle it. For example, if I pull away, then here's what it means. So it's not just, you know, and it might be or I've had quite a few people say when I get home from work, at the notorious time of people feeling kind of scrambled, they haven't fully made the transition yet. And the person at home is so excited to see them. And they're expecting a like a sweet reunion. And person who's coming home from work is kind of grumpy. So what is the reunion ritual? Because it seems to be a flashpoint for lots of couples. And so what does that mean? And so whatever your version of what's a recurring flashpoint, like make some sort of expected game plan around that, right? So if I do X, here's what it means, or let's plan for this to not have the distance or pursue or dynamic be a stumbling point for us. Another example is if I reach for you, this is more in the sex zone, or erotic zone, if I reach for you, here's what I'm actually needing. Because a lot of times, in the distance or pursue or dynamic, the lower desire partner assumes that any sort of reach means that they're expected to follow through with sex. And if they don't want sex, they won't allow any touch, which means nobody's touch needs get met. And so it's a real bummer for everybody. And so if they can clarify that sometimes touch can actually just be touch, right, it can just be touch, holding, caressing, it doesn't have to be full sex. That actually can be a really nice way to help them with connection and closeness, which builds a whole foundational relationship that can be really nice. But that has to be clarified, whatever the sticking points are where your relational dance happens, like I said, it could be around parenting, it could be around sex, it could be around money, it could be around lots and lots of areas of your life. But create explicit agreements. So that's helpful. And build rituals of connection so that pursuers aren't chasing and distances aren't running really super helpful. So this isn't a problem to fix. This is more of a dance to understand. And when you can see your partner's behavior as protective strategy rather than like a personal attack, I think you can feel more compassionate, right? It's not like they're running away from me, they're avoiding me, they're ignoring me, or from the flip side, like, ugh, she won't leave me alone, or I feel so crowded, or she keeps sending me texts, or it feels suffocating is the word often times I hear. So if it's understood where it's coming from, it's easier to feel more compassion. It's just too nervous systems that are learning to trust each other. And trying both to attain intimacy really, that's like, you know, they're trying to, they're trying to find that together. So I'm going to suggest I'm going to ask you to kind of notice what your patterns are this week. Let's figure this out, see where it shows up for you. I would love to hear what's helpful. And share this episode with your partner or with friends, if you've got people that are always asking you, what do I do about this fight? What do I do about this dynamic in my partnership or whatever, send them this podcast. And also please, please follow us if you enjoyed this episode, follow us because following on Spotify really, really helps get our numbers up. So I appreciate you listening and I welcome comments and feedback. So thanks so much. Hey, it's Dr. Jen. Thanks so much for tuning in. Please leave us a review and leave a comment if something struck you. We'd love to get the feedback. It really helps the podcast. And if you want to reach me, go ahead and direct message me on Instagram or you can reach me at Jen at revieretherapy.com. Thanks.