Endless Grasping with Oscar Isaac & Ali Wong

Are we supposed to introduce ourselves and do we do to the camera this one? Hi, I'm Ali Wong. Hi, I'm Oscar Isaac and this is the A24 podcast.

0:00

I'm using my podcast voice.

0:10

You sure are. Very NPR of you. Very non threatening. Very cozy cardigan. Very little cloud tree. Yeah. So Oscar, I don't even know, like, I just assume that people who are movie stars don't watch tv Cause it's beneath you. So I was surprised that you were a fan of Beef and that you watched Beef. So how did you even come on to season one?

0:11

Well, everybody was talking about it. I remember watching the first two episodes and like just loving it. And then I have children that don't let me watch anything. So then I didn't get to finish it. It was one of those where I was like, I gotta finish that. And then I'd gotten the call from about a new season.

0:38

Oh, nice.

0:53

And so I was like, well, now I gotta finish it. And I loved it. And it was so funny. Cause like I already liked it from those first two. But then in that third episode, it takes such a turn emotionally. You know when Stephen's at the church and the song is playing and he starts crying and. Yeah.

0:54

You know what's funny about that is that so in that scene where he starts crying, we were all at dinner together and I was like, oh my God, Stephen. I just watched that scene and I was like. He was like, oh yeah. And I was like, it's so funny. And he was like, no, it's not. And I was like, yeah, it is, man. That was like. It's hilarious how you just start. How like you're like that and you just start crying. And he was like, I don't and can't stop. And. Yeah. And then he was like, I didn't think it was. I really don't see it. Or whatever. And then I was so uncomfortable and I went to go to the bathroom at this like Korean barbecue place. I was like, oh my God, did I have Steven? And. But then thereafter a lot of people. And then he sort of like embraced it, but because he was so committed, that's why it worked. Because he can't judge it and think that that scene is funny.

1:12

You know what it reminds me of? I remember when I was doing Inside Lou and Davis and whenever I.

2:01

Which I just saw recently. Yeah.

2:06

Well, when I. When I would do so good. So, so good when I would do a scene and if I thought of it, I was like, oh, this scene's pretty funny. I would do it and there, you know, there wouldn't be much a reaction. But whenever I was in my most. In pain. Yeah, the Cohens would just be cracking up.

2:08

Yeah. And so there's something about that commitment, you know, where it is. So you do take it seriously. And the part of you that can connect to taking it seriously, like, that's what makes it work for sure.

2:26

I mean, I think it's also like Sonny's tone, right. The fact that that is happening, which is very real, but surrounded by all this, like, hyper Christian praise music, that's happening at the same time. And I grew up in evangelical Christian world, and so it also. I found it very funny from that standpoint as well. And like, the youth groups and like the rock, Christian rock and all that. But it is what I loved so much about talking to Sonny about this one, too. This Beef, too, is his incredible observations of things that are both really painful and really funny. And, like, the absurdity and, like, in a way, the compassion with how small people can be.

2:37

Yeah, it was so. I mean, it's. Season two is so great. You're so great in it. You're so funny. I mean, a lot coming from you. I mean, everyone knows that you're funny. Frau, I think. What do you think? I think, like, it's when I watched Ex Machina, that's kind of when I got put on to, like. I was like, oh, this dude's, like, so, so funny. In addition to being a great actor, like, when you're wearing that, like, that fur vest and you're like, having the time of your life, and then it all the joy just, like, drains so quickly. Like, you go up and you go down, and then you're, like, down about being down. It was like there were just. Yeah, like, a lot of. Really. And you have, like, a real menace to you, too, which is, like. Which is such a fun part of Beef, too. Cause in a way, like, you're not really, like, a gangster, but everyone in Beef is, like, gets to be a bad person. And it's so fun. But. So how much did you ideate with Sonny over your character?

3:20

Well, that's. I'm curious about you, too. Cause I mean, this for you, like, the transition, too, from stand up into something like this, you know, like, what that was like for you. And I was very curious, you know, going into this, you know, this role and beef that you had was, like, so massive and asked so much of you how that transition worked for you and what your conversations with Sonny were like. So I want to hear about that, but I'll answer you about this is it was. I mean, it was like a courtship. Remember I was doing Frankenstein at the same time and we would have these.

4:23

Oh, he gets so excited when he calls.

4:55

Yeah. And we'd have two and a half hour conversations that like, I would cry. We would go really de. Read anything from like a self help book recently. I'd be like, hey, I just read this. And we would just go down that path together. Incredibly open about his own life, which encouraged me to be open about mine, which was strange with somebody I'd never met other than just on zoom. And so his sensibility is really what won me over. Cause at that time, I think there was maybe one episode and even that episode, it wasn't quite there yet. There was some ideas, but it was out of those conversations where I thought this. He's got his bead on something and he's really funny. And we connect so much on just like this spiritual journey of getting into middle age.

4:56

Yeah, I mean he really asks. I mean, you've seen those tie dye T shirts with the Ram Dass quotes that he wears. Like he's a very spiritual person. And so it's sort of like begs of you to really be vulnerable and open up with him personally in those conversations. And then it's really interesting what he extracts and extrapolates from there to your character. And then it's like it's kind of the best version of co creating with somebody. But there were times where like for some of the scenes, I wasn't used to memorizing like that amount of dialogue.

5:42

Do you memorize your stand up routines?

6:18

I do, but I write all of it. Right. And so with a lot of some of the dialogue, I was like. I remember there was one day we did like, you know, because we were had a lot of time constraints and I said to him, I was like, I can't do this in one take. I know you want to do it in one take, but I just can't do it. And he was like, I think you can do it. And then he was like, we gotta go. And then that was it. And then I kind of just didn't have a choice to think about it too much, so. And I'm not the kind of person to like go back and forth with him. Cause it just, it exhausts me.

6:20

So I'm like, all right, to try to fight it.

6:52

Yeah, to try to fight it. And I see, you know, like, I think that's a lot of people's process. Because it's like, in that they understand more or. I don't know. I don't really know. I don't really relate to that. I just am like, I'll go where you tell me, and I'll do whatever you say. And then I just kind of say the words. But so. But we also just didn't have time because we had.

6:53

Yeah, exactly.

7:21

So I think that was, like, really a blessing because I just didn't have

7:23

time to think about it, overthink it. Was it like that for you when,

7:26

like, on your first big project, were you like.

7:30

I mean, I was so hungry to get an opportunity coming out of drama school.

7:35

Yeah.

7:41

That I think when I got it, it just was like, this is everything. This is gonna be my dog Day afternoon.

7:42

And what was that?

7:47

This was a movie. This Scott Burns, a good buddy of mine, says he's a great writer, and it was the first film that he directed. It was this. It was called PU239, which is like a plutonium isotope. But it was like playing this Russian gangster trying to sell plutonium on the black market.

7:48

Oh, yeah. And you're like, this is very important.

8:05

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

8:06

This is gonna change the world.

8:08

Change the world. Yeah, exactly. So, yeah. Yeah. And I am a Can be overthinker and, like, like to talk about things and like to try things and question everything. Like, it says, I go and I come in through the door. But why don't I come in through the window? How come I don't come in through the. Why doesn't. So that it all, like, all the possibilities collapse to the only thing it can be.

8:09

I see.

8:27

That's kind of fun for me, you know? And, in fact, figuring out what it is is usually kind of a bummer. Cause then it means all the other

8:27

possibilities, all that is gone. Yeah.

8:34

You know, I like when it might be anything. It could be this, it could be that, it could be this.

8:36

Did you collaborate a lot on your wardrobe? Because I found your wardrobe so sad. But that's another thing about Beef. It's very subtly funny. Yeah, the wardrobe.

8:40

Yeah.

8:50

Carrie's wardrobe cracked me up, dude.

8:51

Yeah, yeah. The wardrobe is.

8:54

She was wearing, like, those, like. She had these coordinated linen suits that had embroidered, like, little dumb things on them. And then your wardrobe was, like. It was just so coated and still. Oh, okay. What did it say to you?

8:56

Well, Olga's incredible.

9:09

Yeah, she's amazing.

9:10

She's like. She's just astounding. And she's so funny and subtle as well, but before that, the first place I started with was there. And I work with somebody named Tim Nolan, who's incredible. And the first thing I do is like, okay, what's this? What's this head gonna look like? You know, you're gonna see a lot of this head. What are we doing? And we. We landed on this, like, little mullet.

9:11

Uh huh. Yeah.

9:32

It's the tiniest. The tiniest rebellion, you know, of tr. Trying to hold on to something.

9:34

Yeah, to that.

9:41

Exactly. To use into, like, hey, man, I know I'm a country club manager, but, you know, man, I'm a cool guy.

9:42

And that's what, like, that was like, really riding that line, like with that, like it followed through with the whole wardrobe.

9:48

Yeah, exactly. So that was really important. And since sometimes we would take our cues off of Sonny of like, what he was wearing and the Crocs and the oversized sweaters and, you know, playing with that idea and also what the suits looked like. And we wanted the suit to look like it's something that he wants to look good in, but he doesn't want to look like an agent or something, you know, so he's. And he wears his. The Oura ring as well.

9:54

I know.

10:17

All these little things that kind of create.

10:18

He's really like, trying to still have it all.

10:20

Yeah, yeah. And that's a great thing I heard recently, which I feel like kind of encompasses Josh. I heard someone say, you can have anything you want, but you can't have everything you want. And I think the show is a lot above people trying to have everything they want, you know, and you, you know, it's just endless grasping. Endless grasping.

10:22

Yeah, Just even when he's talking to like, the. Who's the guy who's super rich at the club, who has the private.

10:44

Troy.

10:51

Yeah, Troy. And like, you're still trying to have everything. And you're like, not even like, it's so. I mean, Troy plays it really well, but you're like, not reading the room. Whereas before you're so, like, your character's so sensitive, you're so desperate that it's like you're not. You can't read his. This clear sign that he's like, that something's off.

10:51

Yeah.

11:16

You know?

11:17

Yeah, yeah. The desperation overtakes all of that. The fear and all that.

11:17

What was it like working with Carrie again after all these years? Cause I just. Bill showed me inside Willn Davis because I'd never seen it before, and I was like, this is amazing. And you hadn't worked with her since Then, Right.

11:21

I hadn't worked with her. We worked together in a movie called Drive.

11:32

Oh, right.

11:35

That was the first time I had met her and we were both still in our 20s. And you guys are a couple in Drive.

11:37

Yeah.

11:45

Oh, no, you're not in Drive. We are.

11:45

But then you die.

11:48

Yes.

11:48

So fast.

11:49

Yeah. Like I'm in prison. And then her and Ryan Gosling kind of get together.

11:50

Right.

11:53

And so we were like young and it's Hollywood and just things were starting to open up and it was like amazing to meet her at that moment. And you know, and then years later, Lou and Davis and I had met my significant other, she had met her significant other, Marcus, and we were just like newly in love and like this big, you know, role and about music and, and so that was amazing to meet at that point and then now to come together again.

11:53

Is it true that you also auditioned for that at the very last minute for Luy Davis? Yeah. Like, like they had already decided, like a decision.

12:15

They hadn't decided yet, but they, they were.

12:24

I had heard that a decision had been made.

12:27

Well, they were getting close, I think.

12:30

And then you came in and they, they weren't really familiar with you.

12:31

Yeah, no.

12:35

And then after you sang and you had auditioned, they were like, oh, no, we don't have a choice.

12:35

Tell me that part.

12:44

That's what I've heard.

12:45

That's funny. Yeah. No, I mean it was definitely. It was the, the character was designed on Dave Van Ronk, who was like a 6 foot 5, 200 pound Swede, you know. But anyway, yeah, so then we met on that after we have kids and lived a lot of life. It was just. I've never worked with anybody better. She's just. I talk about, you know, with kids where they talk about parallel play.

12:46

Right.

13:10

Like kids play next to each other, you know, and, and then a developmental thing is when they actually start playing with each other and it's like acting with her feels like, oh, usually I'm just doing parallel play, you know, usually I'm just kind of doing my thing next to somebody doing their thing. Often it can feel that way, but with her it's. I don't know, it's just something else happens. And I just think I'm mesmerized by her.

13:11

Yeah, it really feels that way like when you, when you guys are together and I think it's because. I don't know if it's because also we have this as an audience, have a relationship with you guys as a couple in these different forms. But it kind of already feels like you have reincarnated many times together as. I don't know, it was really interesting. And I mean, that's the other thing that's interesting with, you know, Sonny, when he does casting. It's all very, very intentional, you know, So I think he takes that into account too.

13:33

But, yeah, I think that was a big part of it. And then when we started working, especially on that first fight scene, you have

14:09

to be really comfortable with someone to go there.

14:16

Yeah, yeah. And also just to write it together. Like, the three of us wrote that thing together, you know, I mean, he wrote it, but the way that we workshopped it, the way that we would come. We would do very long improvisations, and some of that, you know, in that kind of Sidney Lumet style would come into the. You know, he would incorporate that and write around it. And. Yeah, it was. That was really exciting to kind of have authorship over it that way. I mean, you know, we're a couple of eps sitting here, A couple of beef eps. You know, that was a really cool feeling to really feel like, yeah, that's

14:19

the best part about working with him, you know? And then you're like, did I? And then you watch it and you're like, oh, like, he put that. We put that in there. Oh, my God.

14:53

Yeah, for sure.

15:04

Okay.

15:06

When I would get some of the scripts, I'd be like, oh, yeah, that's a direct quote right there. I'm not sure I can.

15:06

Okay. There's two things I know Sonny loves. He loves it when people get at somebody with their bodily fluids. He loves that. He also. And he had it twice this season. But you were. You were unknowing receiver of that.

15:13

Of the body fluids.

15:30

Yeah, yeah. But he also. There's also.

15:31

I give some bodily fluids, too.

15:33

Oh, you do? There's also the. Your masturbation scene. Is that your first masturbation scene?

15:35

No, it can't have been, surely. I've had many more masturbation scenes that I can't think of at the moment. But I mean, it might.

15:40

I mean, it's. Okay, so you did great. But I believe it. But that's the thing. Like, again, you have to not think that you're doing a masturbation scene. Like, you have to really commit. Cause it's an embarrassing thing to do in front of people. So you really have to, like. But I don't know. I mean, for you, was it. You're like, oh, what, I've done it a hundred times. Have I done it once? Yeah, clearly. It was like, not.

15:52

I've just been around for a long. Like, I'm sure. I'm sure I did. Did it somewhere. I mean, of course it's so goofy, like the. The.

16:21

But you have to make it not look goofy. You can't be like. You can't be, like, cartoonish about it. You have to like.

16:29

Yeah.

16:36

And the truth is, when most people masturbate, it probably doesn't look. Look good.

16:36

No, no, we. That was a big talk. Like Sonny and I on set talking about, like, well, how. And then how should we do this? And so he's like, well, if I was going to do it, I would do it like this. I was like, oh, that's interesting. Legs splayed out. All right, laptop, Laptop. And okay, what if I'm more of like, I guess the side kind of on the side. And we would try to set that up. Be like, what, What. What. What story does that tell?

16:40

You know?

17:03

Yeah. How much self love is it? You know, there's a lot of elements of that expression, but, you know, for us being like, okay, well, I guess this is kind of his safe space and it means a lot to him to be able to.

17:05

He's in his man cave. He's in his man cave.

17:16

So it's actually a.

17:18

No one's watching.

17:19

He's mindful.

17:20

Yeah.

17:21

It's not just like, let me just like. Yeah, rub one out while no one's around.

17:21

Yeah. This isn't. This is like. This is the wind down.

17:24

Exactly. It's the wind down. Right?

17:27

That's what it felt like.

17:29

Yeah. Yeah.

17:30

You know, whereas, like, some. It felt very real.

17:31

Yeah.

17:33

In that way.

17:34

Yeah, exactly. And also, I mean, that was something that, through our conversations got added in. That wasn't there originally, not only the masturbation, but the only fans, you know, there was. It felt like, you know what? I think he's got to have something of his own that he's holding, that he's. That's a place where he allows himself, like, some freedom. I mean, that was ultimately the big thing with Josh is like, I found even playing him, even talking about him, I start to go back into my throat like this. Because he was like such a strangled character.

17:35

Yeah.

18:04

I actually had to do work with somebody to be like, this thing is strangling me too much. I don't know why, you know, that happens. And it's. I think it's just a real testament to his writing, which is that it's just a response that it creates in me when I start thinking about him and his life and how things go. It's just everything gets tight.

18:05

Yeah. I think that's like a common thing with all. That's very relatable. But all the characters in Beef have a way of feeling really trapped, you know, by. By a life that they built for themselves, you know, or by.

18:23

Yeah. These con. These constructions.

18:40

Yeah, right.

18:42

These constructs of identity and of life and of surroundings and of goals. And inevitably, like, everything that is constructed falls apart.

18:42

Yeah.

18:53

At some point.

18:53

What was it like working with Kaylee and Charles?

18:55

They were so great. I mean, I've been a huge fan of Kaylee's actually, for a while. I remember seeing her in Devs, which is Alex Garland. He did this show and she played like a little boy. Not little, but like a teenage boy.

18:58

Oh, wow.

19:10

Who is he? It's like. Actually, it's Caelce Vaney. And I was like, this is an incredible, incredible performance. And she was. She's great. I mean, that scene that we get to do at the beverage cart, like, when on the golf course, you know, it was like one of the first scenes. It's so fun.

19:12

Yeah. Because she's not saying anything.

19:28

No, no.

19:31

It's just. Yeah.

19:31

Just twitchy and, like, trying to, you know. Yeah. Say the right thing.

19:32

And then she just really goes on the journey of being just, like, corrupted.

19:36

Yeah. Yeah. You see that? So, you know, she was fantastic. And then Charles is such a mensch. He's like such a beautiful soul. Like, so funny as well. And. And he's great, I think. I just. I find that the character that he made just indelible.

19:40

I know.

19:54

So he's just. He's so great. He's pitch perfect in this thing. I really. Yeah. I loved working with him.

19:55

The speech you give to Charles after you do bufo. And, like, I love that. I love the bufo scene so much. And when you're. They do the. Like, what you're seeing, and then they cut to you just on the ground, like, like. And your hand is like. And you're on the ground. And the way you're, like, again, I mean, when you do psychedelics, it's not cute, like, like, with masturbating, like, people. And like, a lot of times again, when they. When on tv, when they masturbate, they, like, are feeling their hair and they're, like, going like this. I'm like, no one is doing that. Like, your fists are clenched. It's like a tense experience. And like, a lot of times with psychedelics, like, when you're positioned when you're positioned like that and doing that, I'm like, that's exactly. You look like a squid on the floor.

20:02

Yeah, that's what's happening.

20:54

That's like out of water. That's exactly what I know. I look like that in Joshua Tree at that Airbnb, you know. So I was like, who made that decision?

20:55

Well, that was thankfully. I mean, this, you know, YouTube is an amazing place. So I was like, there's gotta be people on Bufo on YouTube.

21:06

Uh huh.

21:13

And so I went down a rabbit hole and I found somebody making that exact sound going like bubbling saliva, you know, and then. And then read more about it. And like, it can give seizures and it can give different kinds of, you know, reactions. There's lots of different reactions, especially if people start having a freak out.

21:14

Yeah.

21:33

And so there's some videos, but there's a way.

21:33

And that feels like that when you're doing that, where it's like, there's a way that feels good. Good.

21:35

Yeah.

21:39

You're just very free in channeling.

21:40

Yeah. Like that.

21:42

Like a baby. Like whatever.

21:43

Exactly.

21:45

Whatever you're like experiencing where it's like, it can be exhilarating, it can be like a big release or whatever. But I was like, that is.

21:46

It's an animal release. Yeah, it's like an animal.

21:52

That's why it was like. It was like a. Like a sea creature. I was like, this is really like that fluttering. I was like, oh, this is very, very real.

21:55

Well, the way that you guys did that whole Sega delicine was so. Also very beautiful, you know, and so deep. And I mean, it lifts in such an amazing way, that part, so that

22:04

I don't know if Sunny told you. We didn't know what we were doing, I think until a week before.

22:16

Okay, I see. I'm seeing a pattern here.

22:25

Seeing a pattern here.

22:27

Sunny Lee.

22:28

And then, and then, and then, and then all of a sudden we were just in that. That national park or forest, and I was like, okay, I guess no time to fight. No time to fight.

22:32

That's his trick. I mean, we were in Korea, like, shooting.

22:44

Oh, yeah. Where are you gonna go?

22:48

Yeah.

22:49

Who are you gonna complain to?

22:50

Nobody gonna get those pages.

22:51

Right.

22:53

Cause we're here.

22:54

But it's kind of good.

22:55

Yeah.

22:57

You know.

22:57

Yeah. And especially at what point in the shoot did you guys shoot that? Was that towards the end?

22:58

That was at the end.

23:02

That was at the end.

23:02

Yeah.

23:03

So there's some trust at that point too, that you know what's what.

23:04

Yeah. Well, at that point, too. It was. I had worked with Sonny before.

23:08

What did you do?

23:13

He was a writer on this animation show I did with. Oh, you're a former co star for. Was it the card counter? Tiffany Haddish and I used to play these best friends who were birds. Tiffany. I have to say, it was very funny. Okay. So I love Tiffany and she's one of my dear friends. That trailer, Okay. I laugh so hard when there's the glass between you and there's the shot where the glass. Do you know what I'm talking about?

23:14

Yeah.

23:43

And then her long finger.

23:43

The credits start to go over the figure.

23:49

What. What is this movie?

23:51

What is this?

23:55

What is this? Alternate Paul Schrader, man.

23:56

He's a wacky dud.

23:59

Tiffany and Llewellyn Davis are together and are in long fingernails shaking.

24:04

This.

24:11

This is like, hilarious combination. So Sonny wrote on that. We've told this story a million times. But he. He had wanted to do this, you know, show about a road rage incident he had with this guy, and he wanted to see Steven in it. And he always pictured the opposite character, Stanley Tucci. Did he tell you that?

24:11

I think I'd heard that.

24:34

Oh, yeah. And then I randomly had a conversation with Sonny during COVID I'm sure it's been your issue.

24:35

The whole career is always Stanley Cucci or me.

24:41

Stanley Tucci or me. I know. It's like, some women are like that Jessie Buckley always. And I'm like, oh, Stanley, I wanted that pasta show, but I wanted to play the killer in the Lovely bones. Is he the killer in the Lovely Bones?

24:43

He was the killer in the Lovely bones.

24:59

Oh, yeah. So then I talked to Sonny one day during COVID and he was like, you know, this whole time I wanted Stanley Tucci, but now I think it would be a lot more interesting if it was you. And I was like, oh, my gosh. Yes, I would like. It's been my dream to work with Steven. And you're such a fantastic writer. That would be amazing to collaborate with you guys. Yeah, I had never done anything like that before. And then once we started actually getting into it, I was like, what have I done? But it was great. And I. I mean, it was one of the best experiences of my life just because of how collaborative it was. And then, like, I don't want to get, like, too woo woo. But like, I do feel very. I mean, those guys and I still remain very close, you know, it really is, I imagine, and I hope to have the kind of working relationship that you have with Carrie for, like, years to come with Steven. You know, just because you. You really don't find that every day. You know, I used to think when people would talk about chemistry, I always thought it was, like. I always thought it was, like, a romantic, sexual thing, but it's really not that at all.

25:00

No, I think it's more about ease.

26:04

Yeah.

26:06

You know, it's like. I remember sometimes doing auditions. I remember I was doing, like, whatever. It was a play and I'd already been cast. I had to read with a lot of people coming in, and. And sometimes, like, I couldn't tell who was better. Just sometimes it was way easier to do the scenes, and sometimes it was a lot harder. And not because they were necessarily worse actors. Not. There was just something that made it, like, easy.

26:06

Yeah.

26:30

You know, that's a. It's rare.

26:31

Okay. Is that it? Yeah. Do we want a more nice conclusion? Okay, great.

26:35

It'll just fade out on us talking.

26:44

Yeah.

26:46