‘Zodiac’ With Bill Simmons, Chris Ryan, and Sean Fennessey

the rewatchables is brought to you by the ringer podcast network this is our first podcast that we are running not only on spotify as a video but on netflix as well that's sean fantasy he has the big picture yes that's chris ryan who's on the big picture sometimes as well and on the watch you're still doing that right i still crank it out yeah and we've been doing the rewatch wait what's the watch watch it's a tv culture pod right more culture pod Wow, first I'm hearing of this. We have other pods? We have other podcasts. We have been circling this one for a long time because we already did it. This podcast goes... You've been circling it for a long time. Well, I wasn't on the original one. We've been doing this podcast since 2017. It has evolved. We've added all these different categories. This is a movie that's on Netflix, so we're going to try to do some movies to start out that were on Netflix. And this is one we wanted to redo over and over again. I did, with you guys, my top 50 most rewatchable movies of the 21st century, and I had a copy-paste accident and somehow cut Zodiac out accidentally, which you reminded me of at the end. I flipped out. Proof of Life was in there, but it turned out that was a 2000 movie, not eligible, so I moved Zodiac blatantly into that spot. But we were making it up to Zodiac and the Zodiac Killer. So we're in TV pictures like, it's all been worth it. I made it onto Bill's list. Well, he's a Netflix guy too, right? Maybe he's watching. Anyway, Zodiac is next. 2007. Top 10 movies. Spider-Man 3. Box office. Not your favorites. No, box office. Spider-Man 3. Shrek 3. Transformers. Pirates 2 Harry Potter 3 I Am Legend, Born 2 National Treasure 2, Alvin and the Chipmunks and 300 that was our top 10 box office pretty rough here's what also came out in 2007 There Will Be Blood No Country for Old Men, Zodiac Michael Clayton, Juno, American Gangster Superbad, Knocked Up Charlie Wilson's War 310 to Yuma Gone Baby Gone, Eastern Promises Assassination of Jesse James by the coward Robert Ford he often doesn't get mentioned in the title I was tired Robert Ford and out of all those Zodiac was the slowest burn I thought in the theater I was like I thought this could be more like seven it's slow it's methodical and somewhere over the last ten years this movie wrote me in so why like wrote me in as a real hardcore rewatchable can I very quickly answer why I think it could have been a little bit different and might have wrote this in quicker before I do that. Yeah. The movie was supposed to come out in 2006, and it was too long, according to the studio, and they had to cut it down. And so it went from being a December awards player to a February 28th movie. And that's a little disgust aspect of this movie that I think might have changed its slow burn nature. Obviously, the movie itself is a slow burn. You're meant to revisit, reimagine, to be kind of unsatisfied at the end of it. Yeah. Anytime we talk about a serial killer movie, on the show or elsewhere. It's all about the hunt for the killer. Seven is so satisfying because we get that great resolution. It's devastating, but it's... Tough for Brad Pitt, but it's satisfying for everybody else. We at least find out what happened. The whole point of this movie is the unknowability of evil, the unsolvability of these stories. We're probably going to spend an hour here trying to solve this case. No, we actually are going to solve it. Spoiler. Sierra and I found out the killer. That's seven at the end. But, you know, the ingenious idea of the movie is it's not Dirty Harry. You can't just solve it. And so it allows you to kind of accept that unknowability and then focus more on how the movie is made, what's interesting about the people. It's not just the case, but the world at that time, the cities that he's interested in. And we can understand it, too, as this beautiful personal story about David Fincher's adolescence. Yeah. I think it's almost unknowable on the first watch. You know, I mean, when you when you spend time with this movie, especially like as we get ready for a rewatchable, we watch a movie usually like a couple of times during this week. And I found myself noticing things in the back of frames, gestures that people make, little little like hints of what's about to happen three scenes later that I never would have gotten in a movie theater in 2007 on the first watch. It's like a demanding, really like almost an endurance test of a film because you're constantly having to pay attention to every single thing on 100% of the screen. It's not just like, here's an actor, nothing else is in focus. They say something very, very clearly and then it winds up happening. It's like so much information, visual and expository that you're trying to keep track of. So it's almost made to be studied rather than just like, oh, that was a good five o'clocker and now I'm going home. the other piece of it it's kind of a good hang when we talk about with rewatchables like you can also throw it on and just have it on and half watch it because the music and everything and there's always like every 20 minutes there's another really good scene usually when we do these by the time we finish the recording my big thing is I go home and I close the tabs on all the things I've been reading about the movie and then I don't watch the movie again for like 5 years I kind of want to watch Zodiac tonight yeah I know exactly what you mean I've seen it twice now in the last three days, and I watched it with the commentary. And right before I got here, I was like, I needed another watch. I want to hear you guys talk about it, and then I want to go home and think about what you said and watch it again. Right, right. Well, there was a Fincher quote about this. What was this quote that a movie isn't done, it's abandoned? I have it in my notes somewhere. I'll find the exact quote, but he was basically like, I never finished making Zodiac. I just had to stop making it to make another movie. Is that how you feel about trade value? That's how I feel about this rewatchable. We're never going to be finished. This is part two. Maybe we'll do part three. You guys have been reheating. Yeah, I wasn't on the first one. Yeah. And it's interesting. One of the reasons I wasn't on the first one was I wasn't totally there yet with the movie as a rewatchable. And it must have happened over COVID. But this movie all of a sudden was on more, at least in the ways we watch stuff. And then it was on the streamers a lot. It was on Netflix a lot. And it was just like, oh, I'll throw this on. And the music's good in the beginning, and you just get sucked in. Its stature has really grown in the last 10 years. I mean, Chris and I have done, like, 15 podcasts about Fincher at this point. We wrote a column about David Fincher together, like, 20 years ago. We've been kind of, like, studying him through our friendship. And is it safe to say this is your favorite? Because this has been my favorite for about 10 years. It is, yes. Really? Yeah. And I was thinking about it last night and thinking about just, I mean, And I don't, there's probably 500,000 words of just Chris and I texting each other about David Fincher. But it did dawn on me while watching this movie that Chris's dad was a newspaper man and my dad was a police detective. And this is a movie about a newspaper man and a police detective trying to figure something out. Wow, the symbolism of you guys. Well, I mean, I think it's also, you're exactly right. And it's also, you can tell that this is a movie that's incredibly personal to Fincher and also shaped what a diabolical, perverted, cynical worldview he has because he watched this demon rise out of the night in the Bay Area and never get caught. And he was just like, that's what life is. You're driving on a fucking road one night and the guy starts flashing you from behind and you pull over to get help. And then he tries to throw you out of a car. I mean, it's like, that's real life. And that was kind of like, I think of all the directors sometimes, I think Fincher has it the most right, you know, even though that's the hardest thing to accept. Producer Craig Horlbeck is with us as well. He joins us for every rewatch. Well, Craig, if somebody's flashing their lights at you and telling you to pull over because there's something wrong with your tire, keep going. It's one of the lessons of this movie. One of our biggest nitpicks watching last night, we were watching and we were like, who is ever going to pull over if somebody's just honking and flashing their lights at you on the freeway? Why would you ever pull over? creepy man by himself. I think the late 60s, early 70s was the most trusting time we've ever had in America. These were half of the shows back then where hitchhikers getting kidnapped and serial killers just running amok. People showing up at sorority houses, just going to town. I think that there was the possibility of good Samaritanship back then. We just ignore each other. People don't talk to each other. Being neighborly is increasingly not a thing in this country. Back then, if you needed help, in theory, a stranger would help you. Like my wife told me today that California is passing some law that you can ask for a drink lid for a drink when you're at a bar and they have to give it to you. Are you serious? Yeah. That's where we are in 2026. In 1971, pull over. There's something wrong in your tire. Oh, I'm going to fix it for you. Okay. Sounds great. That's really funny. 2007 There Will Be Blood, No Country for Old Men, Zodiac Just those three We always romanticize Especially on this pod about like Oh my god, 75 That's our 75 I didn't feel this way in the moment In 07 Maybe I was just more cynical about culture and movies And TV and everything But There Will Be Blood took me I would say 5-6 years To really understand And I think getting older was a piece of that not There Will Be Blood, No Country for Old Men There Will Be Blood was one of those that was amazing, I don't know if I'll ever watch it again it's like, why am I watching this again? and then you watch it five times and then Zodiac was a slow burn too it's interesting because I think Michael Clayton felt like it was on the level with those in the moment, and I don't think it is at this point, it's 20 years later I disagree, but it does seem like it has not I disagree do you disagree personally or do you disagree big picture? I disagree personally Yeah, but not big picture. Do you think it's regarded in the same class as Blood? I do not. It's a very different kind of movie. Those other three movies are really maximalist movies, and it's a much more kind of restrained character study. But I do think that it is probably the number one movie that people point to when they try to explain how devastated they are about what's happened to Hollywood over the last 15 years, about why can't we have that anymore. Yeah. All four of them, though, it's not just that it feels like our 75. They all feel like 70s movies. Yeah. And Michael Clayton just feels like a very familiar character study from the 70s. And for Fincher and Gilroy explicitly, we're like, I'm trying to make a 70s movie. Like, that's the playbook I'm following here. You know what else helps with those three? The directors. You've Fincher and the Cones, and you have PTA, obviously. But then some of the other movies that came out. that, you know, Superbad knocked up the combo of that. That was really when the comedy era, like those are two of the better done comedies that we've had. And you go all the way through American Gangster. You can be based on the box office list that you just rattled off. Like you can look at, you can feel the transition fully taking place, right? Like I always mark Spider-Man in 2002 as like the shift and the success of that movie. And the fact that the third Spider-Man movie happens within five years. and then you know we're pretty much in this ceaseless run for 20 years. I was looking at the sequels in Box Office Mojo and it's like out of the first 30 movies from Box Office Gross it felt like 18 of them were sequels. And what Dark Knight and Iron Man are the next year? Yeah. Yeah. Right. Zodiac's first weekend the film was outgrossed by Wild Hogs Wild Hogs beat it Shout out to Mike Tolan Wild Hogs rewatchables when Wild Hogs crushed it. I didn't mind that movie when I watched it. How many Tim Allen movies have been on the rewatchable? Zero. That's kind of surprising, I guess. It's classic. And then Second Week 300 blew it out, and the movie didn't do that well. It barely made back its money, but I think in the physical media era, it'll be fine. It'll do okay. It's doing great now. I think what you said before is right. It's just kind of fun to have on, even though it's about the most depraved thing in recent history. I mean, it's such an awful story. It's two of the most disturbing murder scenes of any kind of non-horror movie combined with the basement scene at the end, which is one of the creepiest scenes I think ever filmed. And one of the most disturbing interrogation, criminal interview scenes. I have a theory about this, too, about the movie's sustainability, which is that, you know, it's shot on digital. In most movies that are shot on digital, we kind of complain about and say that they don't look right, that they look kind of off or otherworldly, or there's too much clarity somehow. It doesn't have the grain of film, but because Fincher is so good at shooting digitally, it looks like the highest level version of mostly what we look at now. So, like, it feels familiar. It feels like watching streaming TV, but it's so well made and so clear and so specific that it's not like looking at an artifact in a museum. It still feels modern, even though it's set in the 1970s. And I think to younger audiences, too, it's a movie that kind of makes more sense than just popping Chinatown in. Want to do 4K transfer now or later? It's a really unusual 4K transfer just because it's a movie that was shot digitally basically in 1080, so it shouldn't look good. And then you pop the disc in and you're like, they spent a fuck ton of time improving it. It looks better on 4K now than it did in movie theaters. I can't think of very many examples of that. It's right up at the edge of this looks too good. Yeah. It looks so good that they use, one of the things about this movie is he uses, I think, a different actor for each kill scene. Yes. And the transfer is so good that you can actually tell they're different actors. But I think you're supposed to be able to. Yes. Like, I think it's supposed to lead to the ambiguity of, like, who was this guy? Was there more than one? It definitely wasn't the short guy in the basement. You can rule him out. He was too short. Is that Bob Boyne? No, the guy from... The movie poster guy. Yeah. Our guy from Welcome Back, Cotter. No, I mean, Bob, wasn't the guy's name Bob Vaughn? Yeah. I wrote down things I like about Zodiac and why I think it has the power that it does. Meticulously researched and executed. So there's, the big three for this is all the President's Men in this and Spotlight. I think are weirdly similar movies, even though they're completely different, about completely different thing, and the style of them is different. But they're both like people trying to solve a jigsaw puzzle, and newspapers are prominently involved. And what is this? How do we figure this out? Right. And we love all those movies. We've done all of them on rewatchables. I had spotlight in the most rewatchable. Yeah. Which I think some people, but I watch it all the time because I love the process. What number was that? Do you remember? It was like in the, I'm going to say the teens. Higher or lower than proof of life. It was, it was higher. So wait, is Zodiac going right into the proof of life slot or is it actually higher? Okay. You say meticulously research. It's worth mentioning that David Fincher and James Vanderbilt, the screenwriter, re-interviewed all the living witnesses, cops, newspaper people that they could find who were involved with this case. And basically redid the police work and used police reports as like a baseline for their. Well, they spent 18 months on it. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. I mean, I don't think anyone would ever do that again. Well, I'm going to do that for Book of Basketball. Book of Basketball 2? I'm going to get Isaiah Thomas. I'm going to be like, hold on. What's the secret? Are you adapting Book of Basketball for a narrative feature film like this? It ends with a serial killer. Did you know they spent 18 months doing this? No, but that makes sense. It's also very Fincher to do that. He takes. Panic Room 02? Five years go by between movies. And he was supposed to do this Black Dahlia project that he wanted. It's interesting in the research. he envisioned it as this movie miniseries this five part thing he's basically circling Mindhunter for about 15 years so I guess that would have been HBO one of the only places that could have gone either HBO or Showtime where else would that even go he's pushing into digital and him pushing into streaming he's a couple years ahead of everybody for a while there so anyway that's one it's a two part movie where it's like the first half of the movie is basically Zodiac. He's killing people. How do we figure that? And then the second part is all about the impact that all those murders had on all of these characters that were in there. And I like how there's a clear shift when it says four years later. We're now in a different movie, but it's the same movie, obviously. But I like how they just shift. It's a horror movie that's not a horror movie. It's super scary, but it's not Saw. It's not Halloween 2. Reporting procedural only unlike in botland and all the president's men they never solve it and then the big one which I think you know is the easiest point to make about this but it's this movie about fucking crazy obsession only in this case what happens if you're obsessed with something you never get an answer which is how CR feels about Joel Embiid you don't feel you have the answer at this point no because Joel Embiid will go out and he'll torch the rockets and then CR's like maybe this case isn't closed Jason's the wrong guy. Joel Embiid is Rick Marshall. Yeah. So, I don't know. Anything else other than that stuff? I mean, the acting's superior, and then it's one of the best filmmakers the last 30 years. Yeah, it's also like, you know, he's just got a roster of people that he's been working with forever. You know, like Ren Kleist, the sound designer, and Donald Graham Burt, the production designer. Like, he just has this coterie of genius artisans who all know exactly how to work with him. and so he always gets what he wants. You might not always like what he gives you and he's, you know, the last few movies have been much more divisive for him but I think that this is kind of him going to phase two and getting like, basically entering one of the most impressive sequences of movie making that we've seen in this century and the movie itself, like the obsessiveness thing is just what resonates with me the most because I'm one of those people. Like, all three of us are just like, we're rabbit hole people. Like, we just get super into the stuff that we care about. we can't get outside of it sometimes we can't see past it and we like do lose the force for the trees but sometimes the trees are worth spending time on you know and i i really love that aspect of it and i also am getting like i'm starting to really realize the intention of the movie the older i get the first time i saw it i was like oh arthur lee allen that's the answer cool this is like a very convincing way of explaining this movie to me and then over time you realize it's Arthur Lee Allen to these guys, but that's not enough. And it not being enough actually makes it interesting to spend more time thinking about. So it's like, it's pretty profound. Don't you think that's why we end up in the basement? Among other places. Yeah. I think there's a lot of, wait, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. The scary thing about the moniker is that it could just stand in for evil and that there's evil in the, one of the two basements in California and there's evil out in the highway and there's evil with this guy who likes to, going skin diving you know what i mean like there are different like basically physical representations of what this thing the zodiac is now i don't know if fincher saw it as like a symbolic kind of you know more allegorical piece i think he was very much doing it as a piece of journalism but to sean's point about the obsession i think the thing that jumps off the screen especially after you watch it a few times in the making of documentary that comes with the 4k but You can also watch it on YouTube. I think the prop master or the set designer talks about how when they were doing the San Francisco Chronicle building. That was cool. That, you know, they basically have recreated this newsroom inside of a post office in Los Angeles to shoot in. And they went to the Chronicle and then they had to go to a library in Michigan that had all the old microfiches for 1969 San Francisco Chronicle newspapers. and they were like we reprinted them on authentic newspaper so that they were just around in the news in the newsroom and i was like i don't know that that could have just been a pile of you know new york times from last week if you wanted to but i feel like the actors knew and i feel like the people who were like working on the movie really did feel like they built this monument that and and it jumps off the screen somehow and maybe it helps to know it but you know what i mean like you can feel the extra 10 that went into this movie that's why one of the reasons i like almost famous so much like every single aspect of it he's like this has to be perfect that's a 60 that's a 71 telecala in la looked like in 1971 and this is what the ashtray looked like but two movies made by guys reflecting on when they were 13 years old i mean that's really a big part of it too like when we were thinking about even you were describing fincher being obsessed by the zodiac and he describes him as kind of like his boogeyman like i i literally was like that's kind of what Larry Bird was for you you know what I mean it's like he is legitimately not in a scary way but he is like a figure from your past when you were young who looms large and like these people these things they imprint on you and then you just kind of spend your whole life thinking about them but I would have loved nothing more than a Zodiac like serial killer running through Massachusetts in New England as a little kid I would have been the most fascinating thing happening in my life I mean, it completely explains his filmography. Look at all the crazy, depraved shit that he's into because of the way that he gets fascinated by this stuff. Yeah, we watched Seven. My son is banging out all these 90s and 2000s movies, and we watched Seven the other night. And you just forget with some of these twists at the end. He's like, that's not going to be Gwyneth Paltrow's head in the box, is it? And I'm like, I don't know. We'll see. But yeah It's fun to relive some of this stuff Through people Zodiac is one that He didn't want to watch that one with me He's like I'm Fincher'd out He'd watch Seven and Fight Club He's like I've had enough of Fincher Well you'll circle back It's a different energy too You might want to be a little bit older Well it's also these Fincher movies are Invasive Even Panic Room Which is a relatively simple movie That's not a double feature movie He's manipulating us yeah yeah well you love mind hunter is your favorite tv show probably of all time i mean it's definitely one of the best shows of the 21st century i would say that and it's got some umbilical cord to this yeah i think that you can see in um i think that the lee interrogation is essentially like a blueprint for a lot of what happens in mind hunter where they're going to these sort of notorious killers and being like what can we learn from you to help us to profile and to help us catch people in the future. There's a bunch of stuff in Northern California in Mindhunter, but it's equally about it. John David Carroll. John Carroll Lynch. John Carroll Lynch. So that scene in particular, which I'm sure we'll spend time on, is one of the most electrifying people talking to each other scenes I can ever remember in a movie theater. Yes. In the movie theater, I was vibrating during this scene. Now, it ultimately is not as impactful as you think it's going to be. Because also it's like an hour and a half, and in the movie you're like, wow, we're getting near the end. They found him. I didn't know anything about the Zodiac. I was not like a serial killer kid growing up. I didn't really follow this stuff. And the fact that the movie is just like, okay, that happened, and now we've got an hour or more of movie, and the next hour is just like, well, we don't really know. It's a really crazy choice. That's an amazing choice. For somebody like Ben who's like, okay, I watched Seven, and it's about these two cops who learn to work together to bring down this mastermind. So he's like, oh, what's the next sin? Exactly. And it's like, but it's David, you know, it's the Kevin Spacey sin that takes down David because it's like he goes, he covets his wife. It's like, I get it. I get it. With this, it's like they catch him, and then because an eccentric handwriting expert disagrees with them, the Zodiac killer is free. Right. Even though his brother and his sister-in-law are like, he's the Zodiac. Yeah, he's the same glove size, same shoes. But it's like it runs even deeper if you even believe in that idea because it's like they did catch him for pedophilia, and he was in prison for years. So he was off the street. And the letter stopped. And the letter stopped. and then it takes them years to figure it out. The murders both stop. Yeah, I mean, there's just like, it's not just about obsession, it's also about information overload and getting lost in the information. And you can see by the end of the movie that Toski has just gotten lost. You know, that he has just, because there's been so much. That's because fucking Armistead Muffin did a drive-by on him. Yeah, that was a tough one. We'll get into that. You know, that scene you talk about when they interrogated him, how great that was. And it's probably my most rewatchable scene because it's so much fun to watch. and the three actors kind of sizing him up and the faces Ruffalo makes in that scene where he's just he's trying to stay deadpan when he's like I suppose you'll want to know about the bloody knives in my trunk and they're just like that's a nice watch may I see it? may I see it? he sits down and he crosses his legs and what's that guy's name? Elias Coteas and he just sees the boot and he's like Yeah. Does one of those, but there's like 10 of those. One of the things with Fincher that, you know, he's such a stylistic, awesome director, right? And you think of him like how things look. He's a music video guy. He's so good at people talking. And I don't know if it's because he makes them do 800 takes for every scene, but he has some of the best dialogue scenes we've had this century. He definitely talks a lot in the commentary for this movie about making sure that the human behavior is right, making sure that it feels appropriate to how people would act. But I think he also does stylistic stuff, to your point, in that scene in particular where he doesn't do a lot of singles directly down the barrel of the camera in the whole movie. Except for this. In that scene. In that scene, you see every single person looking right into the camera. It's the only time we get the killer's POV. Right. Because they're staring at him. Our guy Michael Mann is good at this, too. Like when we did Thief, our favorite scene was the diner scene. Sure. where it's just two people talking for a while. Now, Michael Mann had probably not as good dialogue as the Fincher movies were. I don't think Michael Mann could have done the first social network scene that would not have been in his movie. Yeah, yes. Right. I mean, look, Fincher at this period is moving into this new phase where he's on digital and his whole thing is he hates sincerity and he hates earnestness in performance. So basically there are two... I want to talk a lot about like david fincher and you know running a gulag while he's shooting this thing and like it's one of my favorite elements of talking about this movie but this is the movie too where that myth started yeah because of downey and jill and all yeah and uh but basically he's like there's two things a i want them to like push past the point where they're like acting to achieve a single take that is the right take like he's like let's let's actually work let's actually find something interesting and second of all the actors on his screen as mark ruffalo said is like they're 10 of the screen he's also looking at the way light hits a glass in the background and if you watch some of those newspaper the newsroom scenes just try go go watch one of those on on online and watch the people walking around in the background it looks like real life yeah not three people going cantaloupe rhubarb blah blah blah to each other it's people actually doing jobs in the background and apparently Fincher would be like yeah man like she would not be going to that office because she works for this guy so she has to go to that office like that level of understanding of like 100 yards I mean Fincher might be the zodiac character you know he obviously kind of relates in some ways to the methodologies of these crazy people the actual Fincher quote was films aren't finished they're abandoned so you mentioned the run he goes on here is this Benjamin Button which randomly I watched last night. He sees that immediately after this. Yeah. I would have cut the lady in the bed hospital, the old Cate Blanchett. Just would have cut every scene with that. It's about to be my note. If Dave was coming to me, like, hey, what should I do, Simmons? Maybe he should come over for a pod and you're just like, here's some notes for you, Dave. You should start with Young. You'd probably enjoy that. Turn his mic off, just let you know. So it would be like the top 50 pod. Top 50 problems. You can redo the Top 50 pod with him, too. You don't agree with me? Cut her out. So you like Limitless. That is probably my least favorite David Fincher movie. Mine, too. It is a technical marvel and a fascinating idea. And you can see him trying to, like, get his arms around Sincerity. I feel like I wonder whether or not, like, he was, like, spent from Zodiac and was like, I can do all the, like, surface-level, like, technical brilliance of this, but there's not. It's a wimpsco fantasy romance. Maybe there's not, like, a full idea in there. I don't know. It's a really fun swing and miss. It's also the only, like, proper literary adaptation that he did. Like, obviously, Fight Club was a novel, but, like, a kind of more classical, old-school movie. And, like, he had circled a number of movies like that for years, including, like, 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea. And it's kind of the closest he got to, like, making a John Huston movie. But the thing I was going to say about that is that he's not a writer-director. And, like, unlike most of the people that I lionize, they're all, like, auteurs. They're writer-directors. He is, like, going script to script. And he has his writers who he likes. But, you know, the James Vanderbilt script, that was just, like, Disney optioned the Graysmith book. And then it fell out of ownership. And he wrote it on spec. And then Vanderbilt wrote it on spec because he loved the story and loved the book. And then somehow they sold it. And he just kind of came onto the project for hire. And that makes him very different. Like, it makes him very different from, I think, a lot of the way that we think about the great filmmakers of the last 30 years. So, this movie, Zodiac, Button a year later, Social Network, and then... Dragon Tattoo, Gone Girl. Dragon Tattoo, Gone Girl. And that's all in, like, what, six years? Yeah, seven years through Gone Girl, right? Yeah. That's an amazing run. And to me, all of those movies, maybe with the exception of Button, get better every time you watch them. Yes. I recently rewatched Dragon's Head 2 and I was like this is absolutely awesome the cast is this a 22 person cast like 22 people deep it's nuts this is the cast they designed Dion Waiters for Jake Gyllenhaal coming off Brokeback at a nice point in his career Donnie Darko was like 0-2 and Jarhead so it was kind of like hey this guy he might be something and this was an important movie for him and he's the star of the movie Ruffalo who was now in that zone of like I'm going to do a weird rom-com that sucks I might do a decent rom-com I'll be in this weird indie movie then I'll be in an awesome movie then I'll be in another weird movie then I'll be in another awesome movie like he was just all over the map but he'd been collateral a couple years earlier in this movie and just every few years he had another good one I love him in this movie really important Downey movie this was like right at the start of the comeback it's almost down and out there in the Miss 2000s Kiss Bang Bang and then Miss, right? Kiss Kiss Bang Bang is like three years earlier. I think he had been like, Kiss Bang Bang was like, now I can be insured again. Yeah, right. Kiss Kiss Bang Bang, Miss, and then Iron Man the next year. Yeah. That was it. Anthony Edwards, one of the most successful TV actors of all time. Secret sauce of this movie. For sure. Logan Roy. Brian Cox. Brian Cox. Yeah. Charles Fleischer, we mentioned, who the old people can remember from Welcome Back, Cotter was also Roger Rabbit, one of those guys. Yeah. He was the head of RK Maroon, head of Maroon Studios. You guys remember that from Roger Rabbit? I don't. No? Maroon cartoons? You guys remember that? Sean was attracted to Jessica Rabbit. I mean, redhead. She was my Zodiac killer. Zach Grenier? Yeah. One of those guys? Yeah. Yeah. You might remember him from Philadelphia? Yeah. He was kind of the one who came around and had Andy's back a little bit. Oh, yeah. He's the Justice Department guy. Yeah. He was in Fight Club. He's Ed Norton's boss of Fight Club. Philip Baker Hall? Sherwood. I love hard, sharp B's and butter in my ass. That's just what I like. It is funny when he's pruning his bushes when Gyllenhaal comes and sees him. I kind of think he's going to say. Everything nice lies. Jake, everything's going to video. Just a simple man. Elias Kataeus? little James LeGrosse just a tiny little dash little dash of Donald Logue John Carroll Lynch James LeGrosse has one of my favorite lines in the movie where he's like good for him but he's like yeah that guy couldn't go catch the Zodiac John Carroll Lynch fresh off Fargo yeah he was kind of the peak for him he was Mr. Gunderson right Dermot Mulrooney not sure why he's in this movie and Chloe Sevigny Fincher said John Mulrooney we'll talk about momentarily maybe the hottest she's ever looked German Mulroney Fincher says he was just like just one of my favorite guys doesn't really have anything to do in this movie I don't know why he did it we put him in a fat suit I thought it was funny he has like a very glaringly pot belly they've never worked together before German Mulroney was kind of a movie star and he's in four scenes and he's like interesting go get him what do you want to do okay take a night off where did this rank for jillen haugh performances for you it's the last in a very important era but it is not my favorite era it's the wide-eyed innocent weirdo era yes which is like how he got launched with donnie darko before this it's after okay so right after this stretch this was going to be what what's the most 2007 movie uh 2007 aspect of this movie for me one of them was immediately after this, end of watch, prisoners and enemies comes. And then he's like, we're off. Like, I am a fucking weirdo in every movie. My eyes are bulging out of my head. I do something strange. I've just blown a line of cocaine directly into my cortex. And I have insane energy no matter what. And he still holds that to this day with like ambulance and roadhouse and everything else he's been doing. This is the last time it was like, he's sweet. Is there something wrong with him you know like that's kind of the energy that he's getting years later we're like there is something we got to do prisoners just for joan hall being like why why are you shopping for kids clothes yeah it was funny doing a podcast with per in person with him which i did probably like seven eight years ago was that for the boss marathon movie yeah when we had our old offices totally normal guy yeah yeah i kept waiting him for to be super weird and he just wasn't yeah i met him he was he was totally normal but in every movie he's like you want to go do heroin you know yeah he's insane downey is just playing on it's like downey karaoke in this movie he's playing all the hits i want to get like a little patron saint necklace of downey in this movie and wear it all the time aqua velvet yeah downey's in his own movie that i also would have watched if there was like a paul avery there's this fleeting three seconds when uh gyllenhaal's character is walking home from work and he peeks into that bar morty's and all the people from this paper just getting bombed that was newspapers in the 80s 90s 2000s like you finish work there was some dive bar like at the boston harold it was jj foley's everybody would go to foley's after yeah there was a bar across the street from the inquirer that was like a prerequisite allegedly had a phone line directly to the copy desk so the copy desk could call the bar yeah and ask questions Every city has them. Yeah. And it was just like, I could have spent another 20 minutes with those guys just talking about, like, fucking Dr. J. Is Dr. J coming? One of my favorite cuts in the movie is late in the movie after when Avery's, like, really kind of bedraggled. And they cut to him, and he's sitting in the bar, and he's got the oxygen tank in the bar with him. Right. Oh, God. And then Ruffalo. You left it all on the floor, man. What do you want from him? Ruffalo, so he's in You Can Count On Me. That was, like, his arrival movie. and that's 2000. And he kind of had, this could be the next one vibes for a while. I don't think it 100% happened for him the way maybe we might have thought when we were buying his pops cards. You say that, and I know what you mean, but he's also the Hulk, and he was just in Task. I mean, I feel like he's had a really solid career. But not, you wouldn't... I think he's a little too idiosyncratic to be... I don't know, who are you thinking of? Chris Pratt? I've never been able to get a handle on what his career preference was because he just made a couple, how much are you paying me? I'll take it. I know, but he was also like, I really care about the craft. I'm just in it. And it's like, which are you? Which one? Are you the craft guy or are you the paycheck guy? I mean, he's both. I think that's the problem. I'm 13 going on 30. Now you see me. I'm in Poor Things I'm in Shutter Island I work with the greatest filmmakers of all time I've also made six Marvel movies I kind of respect it Well you know what we really learned about him? They knew! They knew and you cut him loose! This is a good This is the pepper to that salt This is him just being like Finish the book Like, he has some great lines and some great turns. And, like, Tosky could be, like, you could really put a lot more mustard on this one. And he doesn't. He keeps him really, like, kind of grounded in the movie. Especially because the guy he's playing was a pretty legendary 70s detective. Because he's tied in with Dirty Harry and all this stuff. He's a pretty well-known guy. Yeah. I think this is my second favorite Ruffalo performance. After you can count on me. I think you can count on me as the best. Yeah, I think that's the best he's ever been in a movie. And you can count on me, he seems like a real person. You know, he seems like somebody you've met. And there's, like, something very tangible about kind of, like, the mistakes that he's making. And he has become, like, a little bit more of a caricature-ish kind of actor. But he's very entertaining. Like, the spotlight thing is very memorable. But, like, is it good acting? Like, it's not particularly good, but it's appropriate for the movie. I feel this way in the Marvel movies where I'm like, is Mark Ruffalo just, like, doing bits? Like, what is this? But he's obviously capable of a lot. The Tosky role is like a real performance where he's changing his voice, changes his posture. Fincher talks about all the stuff he brought to it where like Tosky at the time he learned was really having trouble with ulcers. So when he walks into the diner and he gets half of the BLT from Armstrong, he takes the tomato off because it would bother his stomach. He starts popping Tums during the movie. You know, he's taking antacids because he's having stomach problems. They don't explain any of that stuff. but he as like a very serious actor he's like i'm gonna spend time with this guy research him and make choices i don't always feel like he does that but when he does do it he's pretty much elite it's a very calculated cultivated manicured performance yes i really like it it's very very very under control did you watch task i didn't yeah he did i mean like if you if you want to see late period ruffalo absolutely cooking he didn't watch task because he watched poor things seven times just cranking it out a couple times just get some good stuff know with begonia a couple of begonias like it director's commentary didn't see that your ghost didn't see that did he do that did he do one for that i don't know uh jill and hall downy ruffalo your favorite out of those three craig in this ruffalo i think ruffalo's great i think he's been the least corrupted by marvel in my mind i almost think part of it is because he never had to physically transform like the rest of these guys in the movies you just become action figures like a falls and becomes the Hulk. And Ruffalo has always looked and seemed like a normal person. And I think it's why he's just a floor raiser in every movie. I love Ruffalo. Robert Downey, I think going back now, I had never seen Zodiac until yet last night. The RDJ schtick, the Iron Man schtick is like fully cooking in this movie. And it is a little weird to kind of play with that. It's still enjoyable and I think he's very good in it, but it's hard not to be like, I'm kind of watching Tony Stark here. I felt that set that way a little bit too. But in the moment, I'm sure you were like, oh my god. though no because the movie needed it it needed a weirdo he is like that in chaplain you know like he is like that in every movie like that was his thing this is like what he's definitely in that in back to school with rodney danger totally i don't know what he's going for that movie he is i mean he's always kind of that like yammering sarcastic smarter than everybody guy that's his screen persona right and it just so happens that he at like 48 years old managed to turn it into the biggest thing that happened to movies in the 21st century right we're gonna take a break and and then there an Oscars discussion we need to have and we gonna talk about the actual Zodiac Killer and what we think happened 2007 Oscars March 2008 This movie just gets shut out Zero. Doesn't make Best Picture. I was shocked by this. Zero. No Best Director. If you were doing the big picture back then, would you just have quit? Well, it came out in late February. And back then, that was a problem. Now, Everything Ever Roll once came out in March. Sinners came out in April. it's no longer a problem. They've changed the calendar. But if you put your movie out in February, you're telling the world in 2007, don't worry about this. You don't have to vote for this. Best picture, no country wins. Atonement, Juno, Michael Clayton, there will be blood. If we're doing that again, it's just cracking the list. I don't know who gets bumped. Juno would go out. Juno had a moment though in 07. It was a huge movie. People got really excited about it. Sure. There were new actors people got fired up about. It was a Jason Ryben movie. Yeah, I like it. I think it's a good movie. I like it. I think it gets bumped by the other. I really like Atonement. I mean, personally. I do, too. Yeah. Directors was Cohen's one. Julian Schnabel. Schnabel. Schnabel. The Diving Bell and the Butterfly. Yeah. You seen that one? Todd here. Yeah. Jason Redman, Tony Gilroy, and Paul Thomas Anderson. I forgot Gilroy got nominated. Best Actor, which I think Jake would have been eligible for. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Guy named Daniel Day-Lewis won for a movie called Day-Ruby. I think we're going to keep that where it is Yeah, that's a good one Clooney Tommy Lee Jones in the Valley of Ela Ela I don't remember I can't remember honestly, it's been a minute It's a biblical reference Viggo Mortensen And then Johnny Depp In Sweeney Todd the Demon Barber What the fuck were we doing there? Jesus Christ We were really enthralled To Big Depp at this time Jake could have taken that spot. Big Depp and Big Burton. You seen that, Sweeney Todd? No. Have you seen it staged? I saw it on Broadway. Did you really? Yeah, I saw it as a play. It was cool. Do you remember who was in the role? I saw it in Boston. I saw it with my dad. Okay. That's what it was. Interesting. I mean, also a movie about a serial killer. I might have seen it a little too young. I was like, what's going on? Are you meeting these people? The barber's a demon? That's the problem. It wasn't seeing Halloween when you were like, so here's... Coming up next, top five demon barbers. Best actor in a supporting role. This is when it gets tough. Bardem wins for No Country. Fine. I support it. Casey Affleck and Jesse James. Yep. Really good. Really good. Really good. Seymour Hoffman. Charlie Wilson's War. He's really good in that movie. Incredible. I can't kill him enough. He owns the movie. Hal Holbrook and Into the Wild. That feels like an old guy getting roared by the Oscars. It is a good performance, but it is exactly what you just described. And then Wilkinson for Michael Clayton, who's good. Yes. Ruffalo probably takes that of Holbrook's spot, I'm guessing. Right? Ruffalo over Downey. You tell me. It's Downey for me, but it's also a personal... He's also playing my kind of music in this movie. Let's go with either. I think one of those guys has to be in there. I think in a just world, it's the kind of thing where we just saw two actresses get into supporting from sentimental value. Why would you not just put both guys in from Zodiac? This was actually the worst of all of these. Best writing adapted screenplay. No Country Wins. Atonement away from her. Diving Bell and the Butterfly and there will be blood. Zodiac, I guess, which they spent four years on in the screenplays. I just don't understand that one at all. But this speaks to how the movie was regarded in 2007, which it was not. I think Fincher was considered such a commercial director. And a lot, most of what he was doing because he came out of music videos was oriented around success. And, you know, seven being such a surprise hit after recovering from the alien three issue that this movie being a commercial failure, I think was really held against it around all this stuff. You and alien three guys here. Uh, I like the look of it, but I think it's, it's got a lot of, I mean, he, he had a terrible time making it. I think there was a lot of recutting and rewriting and stuff. All right. So we mentioned this movie was adapted from Zodiac 1986 and Zodiac Unmasked in 2002. And they spent all this time interviewing witnesses, suspects, or family members, suspects, the surviving victims. They interviewed mares. And Fincher said, so much time had passed. Memories are affected. The different telling of the stories would change perception. So whenever we had doubt, we went with the police reports. Ruffalo's character basically says that in the movie. when he's telling Graysmith to basically, you got to give this up. He's like, too much time has passed. People can't remember shit anymore. So I feel like Fincher slid that in there. It's almost like the philosophy of the movie, right? Yeah. It's like, if you don't spring on it now, we're in trouble. Vanderbilt, the writer, pitched the story as, what if Gary Trudeau woke up one morning and tried to solve the son of Sam? Interesting. They didn't want to glamorize the killer. Fincher said, quote, That would have turned the story into a first-person shooter video game. We didn't want to make the sort of movie that serial killers would want to own. I like that. Because if you're a future possible serial killer, you're not watching this like, Arthur Lee, I want to be this dude. This guy's really cool. Amazing things that I found when reading about the actual Zodiac killer is that there's a couple of unconfirmed Zodiac letters where he's chiming in on movies, giving takes, And he's like, Exorcist, really good satire. And, like, there's even one that they're not sure it's from him, but he's like, Badlands, like he hates Badlands. It glorifies murderers. Yeah. So there was a bunch of unconfirmed material, and it just could have been some wacko writing. But it was like this guy, like, just shooting from the hip. We've got to get the Zodiac Killers top five. We've got to get the Zodiac Killers top five. Podcast. Seriously. Can you bounce back on your list? You know? He's weighing in on Rick Barry in The 75 Warriors. I believe in these guys. Is he into Devil Wars Prada? Where did he land on that one? Oh, he probably would have loved that. Zodiac timeline. So they don't have the first attack in the movie for a very specific reason, though. Explain. They don't have any living witnesses. And so they were like, we're not going to start with something where we can't. The ones that they depict are ones that they had living witnesses to be able to, like, corroborate some of the details about. yeah it also allows the movie to be both um introduce a kill at the very top but also be in media res for the rest of the people around it so like the newspaper and the cops get to be like we know there's an issue like something is building here as opposed to starting all the way beginning so when you watch this for the first time last night did you think the murders at the beginning of the movie were the first murders or did it make sense as they explained it that there was a murder before it i assumed they were the first murders just watching it yeah i think it's a little bit of a flaw in the movie. I don't think they made it clear enough. And Riverside is the first murders? Yeah. Okay. But Fincher says that he's not totally convinced that Riverside is Zodiac. That there is like that's part of the genius of the movie, right? Is that there's so many incidents in which people are claiming credit as Zodiac for doing them but Zodiac is, whether he's smart or crazy or however you want to describe it, we don't really even know what he's responsible for. I gotta be honest, it was much more it was easier to try and like read about the Kennedy assassination than it is to read about the Zodiac killer because the Zodiac, it just has so many like different, different like perspectives and permutations. And like, this could have been him and there's five guys over here who think it's him. And then this guy, it's, I think just the fact that it took place over so many years, over so much mileage, so many miles, like it's just much more complicated to wrap your head around. So lovers lane, And that one that starts the movie, that's July 69. That's Darlene Ferrin, right? They get, and the guy, Mike Mageau, survives. We see him at the end of the movie. One month later, Zodiac letter to the San Francisco Chronicle with the coded messages. And then September kills the two law students on the water bank. Lake Berry, yes. Kills the one, kills the girl. And the other guy survives, yeah. I can recreate some of the screams later if you want to tell me. Like, privately? I'll do my Quint Jaws impersonation just for that. Save them for when Jacob comes back from the Achilles. Graysmith makes the dangerous animal of the mall connection to the most dangerous game, 1932. Sean, you have that on 4K? I have the Eureka edition of it on Blu-ray. Yeah, 1932. Quality film. Joel McRae, right? What was going on in this movie? The Villainous Counts Zara hunting live human prey. You never read this story? This was given to us in seventh grade English class. I remember the story. I don't understand why they made it a movie in 1932. And then they made it again with Ice-T, right? Yes. That movie, is it called Trespass? No. Isn't that just called The Most Dangerous Game? Or Game? I feel like they make this movie every ten years. Didn't they do, what was the COVID year? The Hunt. The Hunt. Let's hunt humans. What is that Ice-T movie? It's not called Trespass. I thought it was called Dangerous Game. Yeah, maybe it's called Dangerous Game. Anyway, the original movie is... Surviving the Game. Surviving the Game. Surviving the Game. That's right. It's only like 80 minutes. You can feel that they're stretching out a short story. But it's a pretty good movie for the 30s. Then we get the cab driver shot and killed. Zodiac mails the bloodstained shirt to the Chronicle. Yep. Talking letter. He's talking a lot of smack. Yeah. Yeah. Kind of the Anthony Edwards of serial killers. Yeah. He's staring at the bench. Yeah. Little Dylan Brooks in there. Someone claimed to be Zodiac starts fucking with this lawyer, Melvin Belly, on a talk show. But it's not really him. Then our guy Roger Avery, played by Downey, finds this 1966 Riverside murder that he thinks is tied to it that the police missed. Then they interview Arthur Lee Allen in 71. They noticed the Zodiac watch So he's the Zodiac watch He's got same gloves Same glove size He's got the boots He's kind of moved around in the general vicinity Of where these murders were You don't find out to the end of the movie That he lived near the first victim Also has a trailer Full of fucking weird shit Including a wooden dildo And there's 19 other things That seem suspicious But the handwriting expert just kills it He's like nah nah that's not him well it's really hard to watch it and just understand the difference between circumstantial and hard evidence you know and like the idea of like coincidence versus like incrimination there's just a dramatic thing where they just can't get a warrant to search his trailer before he cleans out his trailer and moves i mean that's the most important thing that happens in this entire case if they're able to search him and if they had approached this differently yeah we might not have a movie or even a case it might just be totally different see how would you compare this to Pablo Torres' Aspiration investigation. A lot of circumstantial evidence, but you can't find the smoking gun. And Balmer versus Arthur Lee Allen. They kind of have a similar vibe. Yeah, they do. Pablo spinning out a little bit like Grace Smith did. I'm not the CEO of Aspiration, and I wouldn't tell you if I was. Oh, you're talking about why we planted those trees. Well, I can explain that. Kawhi Leonard was paid properly under the cap rules. Then stuff stops. Not so coincidentally, Arthur Lee Allen's in jail for the second time for molesting people. Another red flag. And adding that to his draft combine file, multiple bullet stations. By 1976, Gray Smith is just losing his mind, announces he's writing a book, starts getting the heavy breathing phone calls because guess who's out of jail? Arthur Lee Allen. And he figures out he lived close to the first victim. Figures out the birthday thing which they somehow fucked up where he mentioned I'm going to kill somebody today. It's my birthday. And all the circumstantial evidence. By the way, it's the ambidextrous. We forgot to mention that. And then eight years later after Graysman's book has come out Mike Majeux somehow they have not asked to look at an Arthur Leown photo for 12 years here. They're like, what about this guy? He's like, yeah, that's him. Eight out of ten. Pretty good, yeah. And then Arthur Leown dies of a heart attack, and that's basically the case against Arthur Leown. Yeah. Part of the genius of the movie is the way it portrays bureaucratic disorder. The fact that there are so many police departments and police officers and detectives. And no internet. And no centralizing force, really. The fact that the FBI is not as involved in this case as it would be in 2025 is kind of fascinating. Like, Mindhunter, in part, is about the kind of development of forces to account for these kinds of crimes, and that doesn't exist here in the same way. And so you've just kind of got all of these local precincts and districts, some from major cities, some from much smaller towns in California. And all these rules where they couldn't really cross the line. Just think about what Graysmith's project is that he tells Avery about on the houseboat. He's like, I was just thinking if we could just write everything down, and if we could just basically like organize all the facts of the case that it might jog something loose but we take it for granted that there would be this database that has all that information you know what i mean it's like it's the same thing with hospitals where you're like they used to just have you know the charting by hand and it would be like sometimes if somebody screwed something up that would be a huge deal it's the same thing for police work back then where it was just like one guy has a telefax the other doesn't one person took good notes the other didn't you know like one guy's pissed at that other jurisdiction and you know that fincher says that the movie exists and that the entire investigation kind of operated in the way that it did was because armstrong anthony edwards's character took such good notes that there were so there was so much detail and information that they could even just pull from for the movie let alone for the investigation itself and if you don't have that raw material you can't solve crimes you can't do your job the way that you're supposed to it's really interesting because like we think of that shit is really boring and i i remember for years hearing from my dad about like the kind of drudgery that comes with police work but when you're trying to solve a major crime that is national news you need to put all that information somewhere well that's why all three of those movies we mentioned earlier spotlight all the president's been this movie the drudgery you can feel it's like fuck all right yeah go through these files yeah it's all the president's been has that famous scene when they're in the library and it's just like the crane goes up and they're just like all right, I guess we got to go through these. That's like the one basketball reference. This isn't going to do itself. I got to get all this data. I got to find out what this guy's nickname is. Arthur Lee Allen, other stuff with him. Taught high school students when he was a teacher how to use letter symbols and then decode them. That was on the record. An incredible swimmer and then found with a bloody knife the same night as the bluff murders, which he said was used to kill a chicken that day. For dinner, yeah. Normal. And then, again, multiple pedophilia stuff. So there was – and lived in a trailer full of squirrels and weird shit. And he checked every box except for this one handwriting thing. So there was this other thing. This happened in December. So last month, an amateur sleuth, self-taught cryptography expert named Alex Baber in West Virginia, who said one of the reasons he was able to pull this was because he has autism that makes him fixate on things until he can figure out what happened. And he used all these AI programs, and he claimed that he figured out the Zodiac thing. And a lot of it came down to the 13-letter names with the mysterious symbols. He put it through. It came back 71 million. Then it came down, and he kept narrowing the number down until he could narrow it down to 14 and landed on this name Marvin Merrill who was an alias assumed by Marvin Margolis who was investigated for the Black Dahlia murder who was 21 at the time and had all of the same stuff the Zodiac Killer would have done. He was a Navy medic was good at like just doing it quick amputations and shit like that was really bitter about how the Navy thing happened and then a year before his death did this drawing of somebody named Elizabeth that looked like the Black Dahlia and this guy, Alex Faber, is like, this guy did both. Yeah. These were the two great unsolved murders of the 20th century or serial killer or whatever. And this guy's saying, it's actually solved it. It's actually like the demon of, like the devil of California. Yeah. The only thing that I always stumble on whenever I hear that kind of insinuation that the Black Dahlia killer and the Zodiac killer were one and the same is like, that's a great distance to travel to commit these crimes. and where the person is living and how they're doing that. And you hear this over and over again. It's like, so somebody had like a 14-hour round trip visit to Marin to go murder a 19-year-old. But is the implication that he was in Southern California up to the Riverside killings and then moved up to the Bay? I mean, you could do that stuff back then. Now you can't. Like the guy who, what was the guy in North Dakota or wherever that was recently who randomly killed like the four people in that dorm? in Idaho. And he was studying criminal law or something creepy. But he drove and then he drove back to where he was but then didn't realize his cell phone was being tracked. These guys always forget about the cell phone. Craig, what are some of the mistakes you make as you kill people around Southern California? Up and down the coast. I've had to stop. You also do have a legacy in San Diego, Los Angeles, and Northern California. We know that about you. Killer hotbeds, yeah. I didn't realize Fincher was from North Bay, from Marin. You didn't realize this was a sting operation and we've identified you as a serial killer. It's a captain. Yeah. My brother was right on the side. I'm not super far from where I grew up. Yeah. The reason I don't think the Baylor theory is true is because I don't think somebody would shut that off for 20 years. Yes. Yeah, I agree. I think once you're going, you're going. There was also somebody, there was like a University of Maryland, I'm trying to remember who was responsible. but there's something called like case breakers that's like a bunch of ex-fbi justice department people and you know like they basically tried to solve cold cases yeah and they named someone it was this guy greg post but he was like he made that was almost like sounded like really true detective-y where he had like a criminal posse and would like indoctrinate people into this crew and they would like maraud northern california but well that's another theory i think There was some DNA with Sherry Bates that they were linking to him or something. I can't remember, yeah. Well, one of the other theories is that this was multiple people. Yes. That's the one I think I described. I think I do, too. The film kind of taps into that a little bit with the basement guy. And could people have been working together? The creepy thing about Bob Vaughn and the basement scene is the idea that there is a connection between these different people who wrote the posters. Yeah. But that they all knew each other and that they were all kind of like on the same frequency. I'm such an Occam's Razor person with this stuff, though. And we talked about this when we did JFK on the show, right, where you guys were like, I'm ready to spend four hours trying to figure out where all the pinboard lines meet. Yeah. And to me, like we didn't go for our night. And we can read JFK as soon as you want. Yeah. I'd love to watch it again. But in the movie and based on anything that I've read, it feels very clear to me that Arthur Lee Allen killed Darlene. That's the one thing that I'm like, this makes too much sense. And Mike Bajone kind of knew who it was. Yes, right? He identifies him, the distance between them, the preexisting relationship, the way in which the murder is happening because of the information that he had around that. So that's one thing that you can kind of put your arms around and say, this makes a lot of sense. It's everything else, the information splatter, the variation in the crime style, that is just a little bit harder to make sense. That he might have gotten up, yeah. $70 million budget made $85 million. Barely made even A little bad for Fincher Wait we give you a lot of money for this That was worldwide too He just goes on this run now He turned out fire 157 minute Runtime we have a new category in 2026 The Craig Century Club Craig feels like every movie should be 100 minutes Craig this was at minus 57 Yep What are your thoughts What's the ideal run time I understand that this movie is supposed to feel like this long painful process and it needs to be long it can't be 100 minutes i'm willing to admit that i think you could have probably cut 15 minutes mgm was going to make this movie and they had a hard rule that said two hours and 15 minutes max and then ended up taking it to paramount there is i think a section in the middle where it's kind of ruffalo just running into dead ends for a while that starts to feel slow it's like the first the robert denny jr first 15 minutes is great the gyllenhaal stuff really picks up and flies at the end i do think there is there is a 15 minute chunk in the middle that could probably be cut to be honest. Director's cut, it's longer. And they add a two minute kind of interstitial when it does the four years later. He cut something about basically all the music over the four years and basically finished it up. And some news reports of like, oh, this is happening. I would have put that in. I feel like that part of the movie is pretty clumsy where it's clearly edited. He almost seems pissed off. It's like, fine, here's your four years later graphic. Fuck you, motherfuckers. I just spent four months making this two-minute montage of four years of movies. Well, there's rumors of a three-hour and ten-minute cut that was submitted to the studio that I haven't seen. I mean, they did a really nice 4K, and there's a director's cut on the Blu-ray with, like, that has the extra Avery and a little bit of stuff. Not a lot. It's all, like, 40 seconds or something like that. Sean, I said on the Another 48 Hours rewatchables a couple days ago. That is my number one release the cut. So there's 25 minutes extra. No kidding. And apparently another 40 minutes, and it's a totally different movie. Do they reveal who the Zodiac Killer is in that film? They don't do that. And there's no sign that that cut even exists in a warehouse. We've got to find out from Walter. Paramount butchered it at the last minute. They decided it needed to be 95 minutes. But there was all this cut and stuff. 25 minutes out. Oh, interesting. Okay. But what's your number one release the cut? The Snyder cut. No. I don't know. Most of the cuts are out there, right? Like the legendary ones like Kingdom of Heaven and Blade Runner and all that stuff's been made available to us, right? Yeah. We were doing this for another 48. I couldn't really think of another one. The other one I came up with was Eyes Wide Shut, released of Kubrick right before he died cut. There was an interview with the editor of that film that came out when the 4K was released at the end of last year, and he said the version that is on the Criterion disc is the version that Kubrick wanted out. That is not. And then when the camera pans back, you can see the gun being pointed at him as he says it. Yeah. By the Illuminati. I mean, it's possible that there's another version of that movie. Kubrick tried to tell us what happened. He's dead. Watch party is another category for us where we decide what is the best setting for a watch or a rewatch. This is a true solo one for me. This is a CR solo? Yeah. This is like everybody. What do you do? T-shirt, no pants? What do you do? The Tubin, yeah. This is my wife went to New York for the weekend. I'm Porky Pig in it all day. The Tubin. Oh, my God. Roger Ebert, our guy. Yeah. Every rewatchable, we read the Roger Ebert review. Four stars. He said, Zodiac is the all the president's men of serial killer movies. Sign me up. With Woodward and Bernstein played by a cop and a cartoonist. Then he says Fincher is an elegant stylist on top of everything else. Here he is. He finds the right place and style for a story about persistence in the face of evil. Raj, you like this? Check a lot of boxes, characters, plot, story. You can always count on Raj, except when you can't. I do think that it's kind of weird to try to have a conversation about evil and the idea of evil, but it comes up over and over again in all these Fincher movies. And he definitely thinks it's a little funny. Oh, yeah. But also is completely terrorized by it and the idea that these people died. It's not a joke. And yet there is this real sense of black humor in the movie and a real acceptance of not knowing, never knowing what really happened. I think his way of showing empathy and sensitivity to the victims is by not making their deaths seductive. And not making their deaths, he doesn't romanticize them at all. Well, so he has seven guys, the fucking craziest person probably who's ever killed anyone in a movie. He's like, ooh, this guy would have won Jeopardy. You know what I mean? You have the game, which is the craziest prank anyone's pulled on a family member. It's such a mean-spirited movie. That movie's nuts. You have Fight Club, which is just one of the kind of secretly most vicious. Ben was watching the other day. I was like, I forgot how fucking crazy this movie is. Chaos at your fingertips. Panic Room, which is basically these three burglars just going as far as you could possibly go to torture. What if we tortured a single mom and her 12-year-old? Yeah. And you have this movie. Then he kind of cools off a little bit. Gone Girl's pretty perverted. Yeah. Then it goes back to Gone Girl. Dragon Tattoo's crazy. Yeah, Dragon Tattoo. Some of the torture scenes in Dragon Tattoo were so vicious. I was saying, like, Benjamin Buttoning cools off. Yeah. Comes back with Social Network. The biggest sociopath he's ever done a movie about, Mark Zuckerberg. Dragon Tattoo, and then Gone Girl. So for the most part, he's really fascinated by what makes somebody kind of break. And what encourages them to do things that we know are not, in polite society, are bad. Yeah. Are wrong. My favorite Fincher quote is still, people are fundamentally perverts, and I find that interesting. It's paraphrasing. But you guys have 500,000 text words back and forth about Fincher movies. You know, a couple of perverts. It would have been funny if during this whole run he just made, like, one random sports movie, like Glory Road. Yeah. It's like, I'm going back to the first all-black starting five. Guys getting corrupted by, like, a betting ring and shooting steroids the entire time. You'd watch it, though. It'd be meticulously drastic. Honestly, I'd watch anything Fincher did. Me too. Yeah. I just think there's a style to his stuff that you know immediately. It's like when we always talk about writers, when you can cover the byline and you know who the writer is. Like Fincher, you know. All right, most rewatchable scene. The lover's lane murder is fucking creepy. I don't like flash. Flashlights as a murder scene gimmick really freak me out. Just putting the flashlight on top of the gun? Just like when they do this, it never goes well. The hurdy-gurdy man, though, is just an amazing. I love all the Vallejo stuff at the beginning, too, just like that. The fireworks. That static tracking shot of the suburbs and the fireworks and stuff. It's a really, really good first six minutes. Like, you're just, you're in. Puts you right in the place at that time. And also, if you think about it through the eyes of Fincher, it's like him just, like, rebuilding his childhood. I want to just mention Grace Smith reading the decoded letter With Roger watching along We get a little back and forth with them In the Chronicle You keep saying Roger Thank you for correcting me Why do I keep saying Roger Because we know who Roger Avery is The screenwriter Paul Avery is the journalist Thank you Chris I knew I was going to have name mess ups in this You got a lot on your minds You're trying to find the Zodiac murder and then uh when they we find out he gave himself the name i am the zodiac uh the bluff murder do you have a version of that when did you say i am this the boston sports guy well that was when there was a boston movie guy were you sending coded messages is that what it was the boston movie guy doing reviews you probably hated you're probably reading them age 12 being like this guy sucks. On microfiche? Like, how was I getting access to them? The Boston movie guy. So I was like, I'll be Boston sports guy. And then maybe me and the movie guy can... No? We might have tried a cross-promotion, but it didn't work out that great. Huh. Interesting. The Bluff murder. In the running for most unsettling murder scene ever. I don't know what... There's no music. You don't know it's coming. All of a sudden, you see the knife, and then just people getting stabbed and screaming. It's awful. Such a tough rewatch because you're just like, dude, look up. You know, his girlfriend is like, hey, there's a guy watching us. And he's just like, oh, it's a free country. It's fine. Apparently it was accurate to how that actually happened. Where is it Brian Hartnell, the guy who is stabbed but survives, tried to disarm the guy, you know, tried to be kind of casual and comfortable so to kind of keep him at peace so he wouldn't attack him. But he's wearing an all black jumpsuit and a hood. And the necklace. And it looks like the living embodiment of murder. Yeah. I think murders in peaceful locations are creepier, too. They're like this nice, idyllic place. In broad daylight. That's the other thing about that murder is everybody's alone, and it seems like it should be the most beautiful experience you could possibly have with someone you care about. Denothy's Benihana Ward, would you go scene-stealing location for the buff or somewhere else? I'd probably go Morty's, the bar but I like the diner at the end there's some great diners in this movie next rewatch was saying Logan Roy does the live TV show with Fake Zodiac Sam, I need to get back to the Pierce family today, are you in or are you out? Melvin Belli is such a beautiful 70's figure, we don't have people like that anymore, that guy was a famous lawyer who would just show up on TV all the time some Melvin Belli knowledge, he was the one who suggested to the Rolling Stones that they move the venue to Altamont. That's right. We might want that one back. He's in Gimme Shelter. He's literally portrayed in Gimme Shelter. He had his hands in a lot of things. You stop it with that gas chamber shit, Sam. I need to know. In and out! Well, fuck off! I can't watch Brian Cox in anything after some question. I literally can't. I just wait for him to become Logan Roy. Not even Hannibal Lecter? No. No. Logan Roy ruined him for me in a good way he is also the voice of McDonald's I think about that when he does that too that's the craziest thing that's ever happened I think he's actually done like a lot of VO stuff and I'm just like damn this guy must just be like the direct deposit he loves money eat this filet of fish or fuck off the Ioni Sky car ride scene I just have holy fucking shit written down for this This is a great rewatch because she's so stupid First of all she has her kid It's like what are you doing? Why are you pulling over? And then he's like I fixed it She's like oh thank you And then the terror of realizing he didn't fix it And then They do kind of the It's almost like a no country for old men jump cut Ahead of time when you think something horrible has happened When she's screaming on the side of the road She's screaming to throw the baby out Baby is fine Just walking with a limp I guess I'm going to throw your baby out the window yeah please don't do that anymore I just wrote down for the next thing Downey and Jake just cooking and it starts with that does it bother you when people call you Shorty does it bother you when people call you retard and then he goes to Downey and it's like people call me retard it's like no do people call me names yeah the laugh line when Shorty hits him with that though is really really funny and it keeps going they end up with the Halloween card, the gun range. I just like when they're hanging out. You've been around the block a couple times. What do you think Shorty's comp package was? Coffee guy in the Chronicle newsroom? I think he's doing fine. Did that get 5% bumps every year or what? I would say there's probably a checkered history for him in his 20s. Might have spent some time. Knows his way around to switchblade. Might have been incarcerated for a couple years there so he's happy to be working. I just love that towards the end of the movie when Downey is getting basically fired and he's like shorty let's go for one shorty's like yeah sure it's like shorty you're fucking working here man but there's a scene between avery and graysmith before that where they go to the bar together the aqua velvet scene where they're getting to know each other which is one of my favorite scenes in the movie and there's a great moment when avery's like asking graysmith about himself he's like what do you like to do he's like uh i love to read i enjoy books and Avery's like those are the same thing he's like we can no longer ignore this drink you wouldn't make fun of it if you tried it and then cut to an hour later Avery's drinking them in the bar and he's just doing bumps on Greg Smith he's like look at my code breaker book they're so good together interrogating Arthur at work we talked about this scene I think this is my most rewatchable I love this scene Searching Lee's Place The squirrels Squirrels The wooden dildo is the fucking grossest Thing you could have probably added to this movie Yep I like searching Can we get a search warrant? We can Oh we got one And then we go in and whatever the place is of the person It's just way worse It's just way more disturbing and awful than you would ever imagine Buffalo Bill is still number one most disturbing place I think if you're gonna We could build a small Mount Rushmore of disturbing places that get searched. It's definitely Arthur Lee's trailer, Buffalo Bill's basement, the drug dealer house in Gone Baby Gone with all the newspaper on the windows, something in seven. There's a couple of different locations. Yeah, there's, I mean, the David Destin-Alchin house in Prisoners, right? Oh, that's great. That's the top five right there. He opens his suitcase and he's got the snakes in it. That's fucking incredible. Second Prisoners reference. Interesting. Kind of lurking now. Circling, yeah. The basement scene. Rick didn't draw any posters. I do the posters myself. Joe and I was like, this is the one scene for me that when I saw the movie, I was like, this is one of the most scared I felt in a movie in my entire life, seeing it in a movie theater. And now it doesn't work as much. It doesn't hit as hard. I think I have, I don't, I don't know. I've seen it too many times It's the only part of the movie I feel that way about Because you feel like it's totally different Or because it feels like He's trying to scare you and I know He's doing like movie stuff in that scene Where he's trying to make you uneasy The whole movie makes you uneasy because of what really happened I think the worst nightmare you could have As somebody is willingly going into somebody's basement And then realizing you might not get out Yeah, right, that's upsetting And it's the way he shoots it he starts backing up he's like okay I'm gonna get going and the guy just turns the lights off and he's in the dark and it's like alright what's happening also like hearing the footsteps on the top what was going on there I think it's illustrative of Graysmith the character in the film finally confronting the stuff that Chloe Stephanie's character was so worried about where she's just like you're putting yourself out there you're going on television you're writing about him well and you're so upset this guy's like let's just go back to my house He's like, sure. Yeah, exactly. I mean, he brings his baby at the middle of the night to meet with Toski. Also, they get in the house, closes the door, and the guy locks it from the inside and takes the key. And at that point, Graysmith should have been like, wait, what's going on? Yeah. That's kind of what I mean about the way that the movie is made, where when you're watching the movie for the first time, you're like, this is getting really, really uncomfortable. But then when you watch it with a little bit of distance, you're like, they showed us the key locking, you know, to make you uncomfortable. but it still is really effective. It's also this weird 50-50. I mean, we could talk about this later in the pod, but, like, that point in the movie, you're experiencing the case the way I think Fincher wants, like, you to think Graysmith's experiencing, and it's so manic, and it's so, like, all of a sudden, it's like everything is about Rick Marshall, and you're like, wait, what? Like, what happened with... It's a good point. And who is Rick Marshall? Yeah, we don't even know who we're talking about. Like a weird, random, anonymous phone call, and now all of a sudden we've got a new... suspect yeah jake goes to ruffalo's house because he figured out the birthday thing yeah i think this is one of the things i miss about the 70s and 80s is you could just show up at somebody's house and it wasn't completely insane you want to test that out and have no i don't think you can do it anymore you're just like i'm just knocking on your door you have to get out of bed your wife goes i'll make some folgers Of the three of us, I think he would like that the least I don't want to be disturbed But not any more than that I don't like when people come over And yet Jake, last thing Jake goes to see Lee at the hardware store Which I think also gets the Fortune 3 Clap Award for most gifable moment The stare down Yeah I think What's that, John Carroll Lynch? John Carroll Lynch, yeah great face changes in this movie by him. Yeah. Because he has like a nice face, right? Where he's like, hey, can I help you? But then it drops into the evil face. It's a really hard thing to do, and he does it very subtly. He's a really talented actor. You mentioned that he's in Fargo, where he's just kind of pure warmth, right? He's just recording March throughout that whole movie. He's in Sorry Baby, this movie that came out this year, where he has a very similar thing where he's really empathetic to Ava Victor in the movie in one scene. But in this movie, he seems like he could be the most deranged person in the history of America. So what do you have from us, Rue Watchman? Can I just throw one that you didn't mention? Yes. Which is with Roger Avery. It's Toski and Armstrong doing the crime scene for the taxi cab murder. Taxi cab. That's the first Animal Crackers moment. And it's also just, it's just Fincher making a mini cop movie in the middle of this movie where it's like they shot that in L.A. and used Bay Area digital backdrops to recreate the San Francisco street. But it's got all the like, yeah, but you're not dumb because you waited for him to park the car. All the recreation and the forensic stuff and the pathology stuff is so awesome. And then that last shot of Toski gets out of the cab and he kind of walks right up to the camera. And then the David Shire music is really hitting. It's just awesome, awesome. But it's the interrogation. I have two more that we didn't talk about. One is the first time that Graysmith meets with Toski. He's like, I can't allow you to help, but go talk to Narlow, N-A-R-L-O-W. And then the second one is my single favorite scene in the movie other than the interrogation, which is door to door, that final breakfast meeting between Dave and Graysmith. With the salt river shakers. And he says, Darlene worked at the House of Pancakes in Vallejo. I walked it. I mean, that that scene while watching the movie the first time when it felt like they were explaining to you, we know this movie knows who the Zodiac killer is. Like it is so convincing because of the conviction that Gyllenhaal has and the way that Toski reacts where he's like, I was right. We were right. And then he just leaves. He's like, thanks for breakfast. Puts money on the table, walks out. It's over. And then you do get the Jimmy Simpson moment after that. But like it gives you this sense of satisfaction. But then the movie doesn't let you have the satisfaction at its conclusion. with the title cards. I guess you have to decide whether or not you find Graysmith and Arthur Lee in the hardware store satisfying. What did you have for most rewatchable seeing it first time? The interrogation with Lee and the watch thing and the shoe. It felt the most usual suspects where you're sitting there picking up on things, watching people do things together. It's a great scene. You already did the what's the most 2007 thing about this movie, which is wide-eyed, crazy Jake Hill. When we go backwards in movies, it's almost like we have to do what's the most 1970s thing about this movie. And I think it's Folgers Coffee. Because it was really, that was the only coffee for ever. We did have it in the 80s because I remember it in my house. Yeah, it was the 80s. My grandmother had it. Something shifted. I don't really know what, but it was basically, I don't even know, was there another coffee? I think Folgers Crystals was cooking in the 90s too, right? But then for some reason, I mean, Starbucks really. And Starbucks killed the Seattle Supersonics and Folgers But would you put Folgers were people putting Folgers in like a Mr Coffee or were they putting boiling water in it It was the old school Because there instant coffee you just pour the hot water in and make it My mom might have been the first person I knew that anyone knew who had like a nice coffee machine. My mom loved coffee. Still loves coffee. But we always had like a nice coffee machine in the 80s and she really cared about grinding it. Like when's the last time you had? I can't even remember what it tastes like. Yeah. Bad. I would also say for a 70s thing about the movie, just coordinating investigations between cities. Sure. It just would be different now. Okay. Can I give you one other 2007 thing? Yeah. I do think it's a really interesting example of Gen X art and, like, Gen X kind of looking back at their childhood. And not to get too high-minded about it, but it's, like, right before Obama. It's right before this kind of, like, shift culturally. Sean's cooking. Kind of like reckoning with the end of the summer of love and what the 70s could have been and then how they turned out so toxic and dangerous. And it felt very chaotic to live in that time. This kind of desperation to have like a little bit more peace culturally. Like I'm reaching a little bit, but the movie does feel like him kind of reckoning with some of those feelings. I had a hottest take that I think I just should say a little bit about here, which is that I think that if you want, you know, we talked about what would be a good double feature. a good triple feature would be Zodiac, Boogie Nights, and Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. Because it's these three filmmakers doing basically memoirs, but they don't put themselves as the central character. They tell a story about something that was, like, happening at their childhood that shaped through the most famous thing, too. Yeah, totally. All four of them, totally. That was good. I felt like I was watching Embiid back somebody down in the foul line there. Sean was cooking. before or after you tried to injure Mitchell Robinson wow I love giving this award out the Steven Seagal shitting on himself award for most unbelievable anecdote from the actual film shoot I mean the takes thing is always the funniest thing about researching a Fincher movie it's hilarious how much the actors hate it Gyllenhaal said quote you gotta take 5 takes, 10 takes some places 90 takes there's the stopping point there's the point at which you go that's what we have to work with But we would reshoot things. And there comes a point when I would say, well, what do I do? Where's the risk? Downey said, I just decided aside from several times I wanted to Garrett him, that I was going to give him what he wanted. I think I'm a perfect person to work for him because I understand gulags. And then Ruffalo said, he makes Michael Mann look like he's working on a McDonald's hamburger line during rush hour. Fitcher's response if an actor is going to let the world come to them they can't resent the fact that I'm willing to wait as long as that takes you know the first day of production in San Francisco we shot 56 takes of Mark and Jake and it's the 56 take that's in the movie yes I think that the reason one of the reasons why this was breaking their brains is that this is like among the first times probably any of them are shooting digitally and there would be scenes where they'd be on take 22 and fincher would be like delete the first 20 takes like from the from the memory chip and these guys would just be like what are you talking about like what are we doing but i think he gets among the three best performances these guys have ever given and there are different actors like chloe seven ye talked about this um ben affleck has talked about this where he's just like i like it I like that he's like, I want to work. I want to do takes. I don't think we're going for the right thing. We're trying different things. And he's also making sure that the background extra and the glass on the desk are all where they need to be. I think if we were all actors, Sean would like it because he would really appreciate the craftsmanship. I like the reputation, David. Chris would secretly bitch about it but be a good soldier. And I'd be the one like, this fucking guy, this motherfucker, I've done 35 takes. Asshole. I think that's right. I really like systems. He's a systems guy. I think there's also something. He talked about shooting that door-to-door sequence at the end, and they filmed it, and they looked at it, and they were like, this isn't right. And Gyllenhaal is not the expert in this scene. He's the guy who has to know more than Toski. He's the guy who has to have all the information and is explaining it. They went back and re-shot it, and he explained how when they re-shot it, Gyllenhaal brought his dad, who's a filmmaker. And that his dad's presence psychologically made him do it better and then didn't explain that. And he is one of those filmmakers who I don't he's not purposefully torturing actors. Yeah. But he does think about their psychology and how they work. And I do think that sometimes he gets that reputation because he's like, this is how I can get the best out of you. Well, who's the number one guy who did this? Kubrick? And Kubrick showed a nervous breakdown. Yeah. And Kubrick, I mean, like there, there's like legendary, just like open a door 74 times, you know, like, uh, there's an amazing moment in the behind the scenes or the making of doc for Zodiac where Jill and I was walking through the Chronicle of the newsroom and he's taking a bite of a donut and Fincher's like cut. And like, you know, Jill and I was kind of laughing cause he's eating a donut and Fincher's laughing and he's like, yeah, I want you to eat. Like I take a bigger bite. And Jill and I was like, Oh, of course you do. Like, and Fincher's like, Yeah, no. Go back. Go back. I can't get a bigger bite of it. Another really funny one in one of the docs where it's a very quick moment, but they're interviewing Gyllenhaal during the making of a scene, and he's like, yeah, I'm, like, really good at insert shots. Right, David? Like, I'm really good at inserts. And David's like, yeah, yeah, you are. It's the masters that are not very good. You know, like, the main shot of you acting, you're not good at that? He literally says that to them while they're making the movie. Jesus. And he's giving him shit, but he's giving him shit in a truthful way. It's tough. He can be tough. Well, I was going to say this later, but one thing I noticed when I watch adventure movies is when people are eating, it's like Anthony Underwood is eating a turkey club at one point, and there's another part where Ruffalo's eating a burger. And it's hard not to think. I wonder if he had to eat a Ruffalo 58 burger. He did a real bite of that burger. If you made him do 58 takes of that, did he just have to make himself throw up? I have never seen a man grip a hamburger the way I know, he's holding it, right? I don't think he wanted to eat it. He's probably like, I'm going to fucking throw up. I don't know if they put like a Boca burger in there or whatever. We didn't have this great impossible meat back in 2007. We're going to take a break and then we're going to do What's Age the Best. Before we do What's Age the Best, new category. This is a 2020, 2026er. The Dennis Peck Relationship Test. Named after Richard Gere in Internal Affairs. who you just wanted to keep away from everybody's relationship. Graysmith and Chloe Seventy's character. I'm going to say Dennis Peck could have broken this one pretty quickly. I think some Dennis Peck out there seems like he did. Yeah. Yeah. I think she got Dennis Peck pretty soon. The funniest thing about it is from the moment they meet, he's giving you every single sign that you could not get invested in this guy. I like the line that she has where she's like, this is just a first date that went on for a couple years or that never ended. Yeah. Like, that happens sometimes. Yeah. Like, you date for a while and then all, oh, wait, we're living together. That was weird. I don't want to blame her. Like, he showed you all of his cards on date one. This guy's a fucking weirdo. This is because he was just like, I never told you, baby. I always get to be watching 12 hours of football every Sunday. I do. You do when you signed up for me. Yeah, you do how much basketball I watch. The movie doesn't explain it, but just through her performance, you can tell she's just a woman who is like, I'm ready to settle down. I'm ready to find somebody and just have a family. She's on a blind date with the guy. She's just such a fox in this movie. Her and the glasses and the long hair. Oh, my God. Want to start with Sage and Best with her? She's got such a great sense of humor, like Seven. He does because there's an interview with her. She's just like, well, I think they wanted to make Gyllenhaal less hot, so Fincher made me dress really frumpy. Yeah, she's supposed to seem very normal, and Graysmith is a cartoonist, right? He's not a cool guy, but it's undeniable. I mean, both of them are beautiful. Another what's aged the best is just true crime the last two decades. That was my number one. Not just true crime, but the obsession with it. This movie's ahead of the game with that. And then podcasts come, documentaries come, Netflix. I watched the three-part Zodiac thing they did last year. This week, I missed it when it was out. I don't know how I missed it. This is the Zodiac speaking, right? Yeah. As usual with those three-parters, probably could have been just, you know, an hour and 25. I've dragged it out a little bit, but it was interesting. There's a couple of – there's one really good one on the Blu-ray that I think is also called – this is the Zodiac speaking, but it's an hour and 40 minutes and features interviews with all of the major figures who are still alive. Do you think Zodiac would have been a good nickname for somebody in basketball? Like if Anthony Edwards was just – his nickname was Zodiac? Would you have done it – what if it was for Zydrunas Olgowskis? We were just like, ah, Zodiac. The post killer. Is that better football or basketball? The drop step killer. Basketball. Basketball. Back in the Steve Atwater days, it would be great if a free safety was nicknamed Zodiac. I was going to say a quarterback that throws a lot of hospital passes. He can't decode his hospital passes. Late 60s, early 70s, San Francisco. Just seeing that in a movie is the best. Post-hippie, fall of the hate. I had this later, but there's something about the city back then that really kicked everybody else's ass about san francisco you've you've done this before we we went to san francisco like six or seven years ago you were like this place is the best i think other cities caught up yeah like when you see like a place like boston now boston is much nicer and more spread out has more things going than it is kind of like you saying that the celtics are doing what the pacers i'm not doing a basketball thing. Boston built up. San Francisco never had to build up. San Francisco's like, look how fucking cool this is. It's an unusual place. Alcatraz is over there. We have hills. We have trolleys. It's just the best movie location of any city. It's not even close. There's also, I mean, obviously it's the cinematography and the music in this movie, but there's something about his version of San Francisco just feels haunted. It seems like it's night 75% of this movie, and it It is also like a little bit of a California thing where you're just like, man, there could just be something behind that fence over there. There's just there could be something up that hill over there. And it's a weird state, too, because like you do have like for as much as there's L.A. and San Francisco, there is like super rural parts and like trailer parks. And that's a big part of this movie is the kind of like disconnected various styles of small towns that comprise most of northern California. I mean, northern California is not San Francisco in the Bay. It's like it's a lot of different kinds of small cities and towns that are like Santa Rosa or lower middle class and, you know, have these small police precincts. And the fact that the movie spends a lot of time in those places, I think, makes it different, too. There's two there's three movie locations that I think you just instinctively know where you are as you're watching a movie. And I think San Francisco is one of them. New York, obviously. And then I think L.A. is the other one if it's certain parts. Otherwise like Boston They have to show Fenway You know Chicago For the most part cities can be Pretty amorphous I guess Vegas and New Orleans could technically count But San Francisco You always know you're in San Francisco I like the San Francisco building thing Which I know is a big film nerd That he shows the Transcontinental What do you have for What do you have for what's in this year? uh all of uh downy america sorry trans america downy's uh mutterings to gillenhall especially his art criticism but like sweet mother of christ what are you drawing and jesus herald christ on rubber crutches bobby what are you doing you're doing that thing that thing i don't like that starts with now like all of their banter and stuff kind of culminating at morty's uh i also just on these repeated viewings like the way that the film changes tonally when the protagonist the movie switches from toski to to um the four years later bump and the way it feels different the way the investigation is not as um ordered and documented and it feels way more like a solo album like he's got nobody helping him the way that toski had armstrong and everybody else and it's just the incredible shift in the movie there's two other things that i really like about it that still resonate one is just the general premise of the movie which is like the unsolvability of mundane tragedy. Like we have a lot of examples of this over history where you'll never really know what happened even if somebody got convicted of a crime. Then the other thing is Graysmith represents this idea that I think most people I know are experiencing right now, which is using external problems in the world to kind of divert yourself away from what's going on at home, what's happening in your career, like who you really are in the world and just kind of getting locked in on stuff that isn't about you and doesn't really matter to you, but using it as a portal. You just described the internet for the last 10 years. And that's really what we've all kind of become. We've become kind of trapped by that idea. And even just doing the podcast for this movie, I'm not a very big Reddit person, but I was on fucking Zodiac Reddit for like an hour just reading about Donald Chaney and who that person is and how he figures into this story. And it's like Graysmith is kind of the original poster in a lot of ways. You know, like he really does kind of represent a lot of what the kind of attitudes of people who live online. And he's always an outsider. So he's like even at the Chronicle, he's doing cartoons. He's like kind of lurking at those meetings he's probably not supposed to be in. And then when he becomes like the primary investigator, like nobody takes him seriously because they're like, you're not a cop. You're not a you're not a journalist. Like, what are you doing? I have a Gowney's comeback as a which they should best and what it means in the context of his career. this movie than Iron Man. That's a really good one, yeah. The Fincher catalog and just what this movie means, I think is age the best. I don't want to say he needed it, but he kind of needs it when you think like holy shit. Like, I think ultimately you're talking about a director that can make 20 movies, 30, whatever, but there's usually like five to eight that people are going to those are the ones that are going to buy. What his personal passion projects are. Like, it's definitely Zodiac and Mink. I wonder what else One for two. Love Mank. But Zodiac and Mank are both clearly about his dad. I mean, they're obsessions of his dad. He talks about his dad a bunch on the commentary, and his dad was just in this milieu at the time. And like all people, he's kind of haunted by the positives and the negatives of that experience. I had Paul Every's Water Place, which I want to give the Amanda Dobbins Award for Best Piece of Real Estate. I don't know how much that place cost, but I thought his place was fucking cool. Whatever that was. Is it supposed to be in Sacramento? I don't know where it was, but I thought it was cool. That seems like a great place to end up if you're an alcoholic who's going to die at pulmonary ampidemus. What can you, is he living in like Marin? Like where is he living? That could have been in like Alameda or something. I'm not really sure. I liked it. He's just going to smoke cigs there and fucking drink until he dies. Because he makes that reference to the, there's more people die in the commute in the East Bay than this crazy guy's ever killed, and he like points out the window as if. So maybe he is in Alameda or Oakland or something. Maybe he's in the East Bay. I had the Chronicle's office and how they recreated it. Ebert made a good point about there's a couple scenes where it's just empty or pretty empty. And that really is what it's like to work for a newspaper. Like you go in in the morning, there's like five people there. My dad would sometimes take me by the Enquirer on Sundays, and it was always like, this place is like Disneyland. Yeah, let's take a movie set. And it's always that there's nobody there in the morning, and everybody starts showing up around 4 o'clock when deadline time starts to come around. The soundtrack is effective Includes Three Dog Night, Donovan Soul Sacrifice by Santana Really good Crystal Blue Persuasion And then we get as we move into the late 70s It turns into a little Yacht Rock Steely Dan Sorry Donald Fagan Bob Skaggs, Jerry Rafferty Start sneaking him in No Christopher Cross So Downey cruising to the Sean Penn had brought my own pack award for excellence in on-screen smoking. I mean, it's really about as good as it's... It's a higher level. I think he's smoking filterless, so that's like another level. You know what I mean? He's doing where he has the no hands. He's talking. The cigarette's coming this way. He's puffing from it and then blowing it out of his nose and still just keeping the scene. It's incredible stuff. I spent five years trying to perfect that. I think that... Effortless. also my favorite lighting of a cigarette in this movie is when he's reading the letter from the Zodiac and he's like and then I will you were driving around on your motor sickles and he just like clicks his lighter and lights a cigarette and doesn't miss a line there's a couple of like the cigarette is halfway into his mouth like scenes where I'm just like this guy is born to do it you know I felt like I was in like an art seminar you know It was learning about Dick Ah. If we did Mount Rushmore, and De Niro's got to be in there, obviously, I think Downey might be one of the four. The runner-up in this movie is Cleo Duvall. Great smoking scene. Yes. Great smoking scene. They do a good job of really making her seem like she's seen a few things in her day. She's been to a couple of paintings. That's one of her skills as an actor. There's been some... Yeah. Great Jack Gordor Award, what did you have, Sierra? Jesus. how long you got opening city fireworks it's pretty cool there's too many choices there's a couple of like the just the digitally recreated moments the fireworks the overhead shot of the taxi cab etc I have one that's kind of subtle but I've just seen pictures of them shooting it where Fincher is kind of like right close to them while they're acting or right when they're about to shoot it and it's the Gyllenhaal 70 in the phone booth outside of the restaurant and the way it's lit and the way it looks and it's kind of romantic and it's it's just a personal favorite I love that she's in the phone booth with him which makes no sense she has that great line it's really some weird ploy for you to make me go home with you we should mention Greg Shot Gordo Award is the most cinematic shot I guess I have to ID some of these awards named after Gordon Willis I just have like three that are all connected one is the shot of the Zodiac Killer coming over the hill in Lake Berryessa. Yeah. Then the cut to, is it Harnell's face? The way that it holds on his face while he's being stabbed. Oh, my God. And then immediately cutting to the woman's torso when she's being stabbed, which is the most upsetting thing in the movie, is when you see the knife going into her body. And then the choice that they made there, which in most movies now, if you did it, you'd be able to tell and it would be terrible. but all the blood that you see when she's being stabbed is all digital and the reason that they did that is because they didn't want to have to redo costumes every time they did a take so if they did 50 takes of that sequence every time the blood could be digitally recreated just like little's filmmaking stuff there where maybe that had been done before but i don't think so and he's kind of at the forefront of this technology and you would never for a second when you're watching the movie be like oh that's fake blood it looks good enough yeah and it's moving fast enough that he's doing the job. Also, on the director's commentary, Fincher's like, she was a champ. She was like, we did this like 60 times, and she never complained. Amazing Golden Gate Bridge shot. There's an aerial looking down that looks like an apple spring. Kind of like a vertical kind of thing. Yeah, yeah. Even just that first push-in on the city, and he talks about rebuilding the Embarcadero Freeway, which doesn't exist anymore because it fell apart during the 89 earthquake. So he's like, just the idea of rebuilding this freeway that I grew up with was interesting to me. He fucking brought trees. He choppered trees into the Lake Berry Asa. Oh, yeah. To recreate the book. Because their trees had changed since the time it had gone. Some producer's like, David, what if we don't have the trees? Get the fuck out of here. You're off the set. Kate Cuddy pursued a happiness award for best needle drop. I have inner city blues. I thought Hurdy Gurdy, when it kicks in, when he starts shooting them. I think that's the most memorable. The song's in the background and then it gets loud. Yeah. I really like Bernadette in the bar That one's great, the four top song He also does a little bit of a Scorsese Thomas Schumacher thing where he Starts it midway through And it's just the vocal pops in And then it's a little bit Of like a DJ thing It's really good New award Excited, Craig? Yeah The David Fincher Award for Wow, this director may have been a fucking lunatic It goes to David Fincher for this tidbit. He digitally added hair to the close-ups of Jake Gyllenhaal's nickels as he draws or holds letters because Fincher felt Gyllenhaal's hands were, quote, too hairless and pretty. He digitally added hair to his knuckles. He's looking for accuracy. What a fucking maniac. I love it. Anyway, that's the first time we got to hand that word out. Congrats to David. We have the Sean Fentasy Award for stealth homage that gives every movie near a criteria orgasm. Okay, so there's obviously a couple of clear ones we've talked about already. Most Dangerous Game, All the President's Men, that's like the blueprint for the movie. My favorite tiny little homage is when they're interviewing the kids. One of the kids who's being interrogated by the police officers, when they ask him what did he look like, they say he looked normal. and that is a direct reference to Bong Joon-ho's Memories of Murder, Wilson, the 2003 serial killer movie where someone says that about the killer in the movie Memories of Murder, which is hugely influenced by Seven and Fincher and Bong Joon-ho are in this like career long back and forth Zodiac is a total mass Bong Joon-ho is like my greatest in theater experience is seeing the social network, like these two guys are kind of fascinated with each other. I've never seen them talk to each other before. I don't like how Fincher has this many allies. Like, now he's with Tarantino. I like when directors hate each other. He's like, homies with Steven Soderbergh, too. We need to go back to the dudes. We need to go back to Paul Schrader just lighting everybody up and calling themselves. You want it to be bird magic. You don't want LeBron and Steph being friends. No, I don't want everybody in the dream team with their arms around each other. Oh, I love that movie. It's a masterpiece. Let's do, Craig, you do a flex. of a move. Can I throw one criteria orgasm in there? Yeah, I do. I thought of it was when Graysmith gets the first breather call and he picks it up and it's like on Graysmith and then it pans to the right and closes in the background. It's a little Rosemary's Baby where it's like Ruth Gordon on the phone and you're kind of like looking over there. I kind of like that. Good one. Flex, Craig, go ahead. A lot of options. I want to get one out of the way quickly. is there a porn parody for this movie? Yes, there is. It's called The Zodiac Killer starring John Holmes. What? Yes. Let's fire it up. Let's watch it together. Did you read more of the details? Was he a killer or was he the cop? He must have been the cop. He was the cop. And the Zodiac Killer kills and then has sex with women. Wait, after the killer? He has sex with them and then kills them. And then John Holmes is on the hunt. I wonder if it was Johnny Watt It was 63 minutes So it does pass the attention Imagine if it was three hours 63 minutes I prefer the porn It's not in 4K It does not look as good as Vintage Did you download it on your work computer? No, we put that on the personal device John Holmes was doing the Zodiac podcast That would be great The other one I'll do is The Vincent Chase Award for Are We Sure This Character Was Good at His Job. I'm going right at Zodiac. Lower kill rate than Drake Mays completion percentage. The double murders at the top of this movie, he can't kill either guy. He can't finish the job. He lets both guys live. Crazy. He wore a watch that said Zodiac. Yeah. Kind of a miss there. Slipped up, revealed his birthday over the phone, claimed to be a lefty, wore the watch on the wrong wrist. Yes. Wore a giant name tag that said Lee at the hardware shop. It's kind of the Bob Cousy of serial killers. Plumbers. His name text in Zodiac. At the age of hardware. This guy was winning MVPs, but he couldn't dribble up his head. Hey, my name's Zodiac. Can I help you find something? That's a great one. You have a painting job coming up? Come on. The Butch's Girlfriend Award for the weak link of the film. I think this film's great. It was hard to come up with a weak link. I don't personally understand the Avery trip to Riverside where he's like an anonymous tip has told me to go to Riverside. I mean, it works out, but that part of the movie, while awesome, is also a little confusing. It felt like they needed an extra downy scene of us. It's just like I suppose it's also like this is where Avery is kind of leaving the tracks and is starting to like chase shadows a little bit, but that's where he's like I have a tiny one, which is, it's fine if you don't show the first Zodiac double murder because they were very, like, we only, if we didn't know what happened and both people are dead, we can't show it. But I still think they should have figured out how to mention it in some way for people like Craig who don't know the story, that there was the murder before the murder. And I don't think they do a good enough job of explaining that. It's, like, very subtle in the dialogue. it assumes the viewer already knows but I don't, as the movie ages over time, I think I just think they should have figured out a better way to do that I don't know if what I'm going to say is a picking nit or an unanswerable question or what's you know kind of more fits this category, but specifically the Donald Chaney character who, the guy who gives the performance is totally fine, but the guy who gives all this information about Arthur Lee Allen He's like, oh, yeah, and then he said this and said that. He said this about the kids bopping off the school bus and taking them out, and he had all this specific detail that makes Toski think that it's him. You know, there are a lot of interviews with this guy. He's in all the documentaries. In the wider world of the Zodiac, there's a lot of suspicion about his involvement in this story and whether or not he was more involved or whether or not he's making things up. Right. The whole time that Donalcini read it? It's all over the Zodiac, right? I mean, there's a ton of people who are like, this guy is not credible at all. There's a lot of interviews with him. And so to the point that Craig is making, even about the movie, where he's like, all of this shit that just seems so circumstantial that points directly at the guy that makes him seem like a bad serial killer is effectively backed by everything that Donald Cheney has provided. Yes. And it makes you, to me. Sierra's having a great time. Well, you're totally right. And it also happens like 11 times in the Zodiac case where there's like, this guy is the preeminent expert. It turns out he's a con artist. Or it turns out he makes his living by going to conventions and peddling theories about stuff like that. Is that who John Holmes played or no? Was he somebody else? I think he was somebody else. Okay. Or even all the Toski stuff about the letters to Armistead Maupin and then whether or not he wrote the Zodiac letter and stuff like that, which is like proving to be untrue, I think. That's a good weak link. They could have at least aroused some suspicion with us. Fincher says that he finds that guy credible. And the reason that he's portrayed in the movie that way is because he doesn't feel the way that a lot of people look closely in the story. It's like very – this is kind of like what Pelicanos and David Simon did when we were in the city where they're like, we have decided that this person's version of this is accurate. It's at least worth portraying sincerely, right? And that choice kind of shifts the movie in a direction that makes you feel strongly about it. What saves the worst? I mentioned earlier Him cutting the two minute blackout montage Of hit songs signaling the passage of time From Joni Mitchell to Donna Summer Replaced it for runtime with Four years later I just That's a bad decision That's like when they cut out my favorite Boogie Nights deleted scene Of the second AVN awards When they show all the reactions of everybody And they're like yeah we don't need it I'm surprised to learn that's your favorite deleted scene That's my favorite deleted scene What did you think it was? It was a very memorable scene with Roller Girl, Louise Guzman. So that was another great scene. So I have, for what's age the worst, there's that scene when Jack and Downey are at the bar we mentioned earlier, just decoding Zodiac shit. I wrote down, I'm five minutes late on these two together. Yeah. That would have been my note at the studio. Like, any more Downey and Gyllenhaal just being weird together scenes? Because put another one in. There is another one deleted. I don't know if you want to say it's age the best or the worst because it's both but they weren't real friends and like Avery and Graysmith were not friends so that is almost the most movie-ish thing about the movie and it is by far the most entertaining thing in the movie and I definitely would have taken 10 more scenes of the two of them going to a fucking Giants game you know and being like come see the worst except for Grey That would be good. I asked that for What's Age the Worst. Anthony Edwards with a wig on always throws me off. He's just like such like a proven bald guy that anytime I see him with hair in a movie, I'm like, come on. Just have him be bald. He's bald. We know he's bald. He's owned the baldness. I think it's probably accurate to Armstrong. No, I know that. Any other What's Age the Worst? No, I had the four-year gap. It's the most abrupt, weird, you have to be like, okay, I got it in my head. I'm making that jump that Avery has washed out, that Graysmith is kind of still on this by himself. Okay. Any for you or no? Just my certainty that it was Arthur Lee Allen for like 10 years after I saw the movie, and now the idea that we're just like, the thing that is haunting the guys in this movie is now what haunts the culture of finding the Zodiac Killer, which is just like that. In this podcast. There's more info every day. You know, you talked about the expert who was like, this guy's autistic, and it was him because of this. Like, that stuff's never going to stop because it's a cold case. Just wait until AI just fully gets its talons into it, you know? Oh, yeah. Another category we don't get to give out much, the Rose from Titanic Award for character who's sneaky sucks. Close to having these characters. No! What are you talking about? I would say she's actually quite reasonable. She's pretty cool, man. She knows what she's getting into. Counter, get the fuck out after the first date. Why are you going to settle down with this fucking lunatic? Oh, okay. I thought you were like, I'm raising kids with this guy. And then she's mad at him. It's like, I don't know what you're doing. Your whole life revolves around this. He's like, he fucking told you in the first date that he was crazy. Yeah. And you're like, well, I'm sad about this. That would be kind of cool if like, if Eileen was like, you sure do watch a lot of movies. Yeah. What's the deal with all these 4K Blu-rays, Sean? Was there a number? She's like, what are you doing? It's like, Sean, what are we doing? Are we going to dinner? He's like, I got to watch. so I gotta do some Spielberg research. We got fun to you home. She's like, oh, I'm taking the kids. I'm going to mom's. Are you guys surprised this movie resonates with me? It really bothers me that she signs up for this and then takes it personally. I think that there is a lot of relationships where the thing that makes sense for the first three to nine months of it does not make sense 18 months or two years in. Okay, but in this case, it was the first two hours. Yes. They don't even finish dinner on their first date. He's in a fucking phone booth and then she ends up sleeping on his couch. Yeah. She's waiting for a call from his pulmonary emboscopement. She said that's the most exciting date I've ever had. It's like, yeah. I mean, she's the only female character of note in the film. I mean, there's just not, there's no. Except for June Diane Raphael being like, I'm going to make the full jury. But she's also just playing the wife, you know? Like, there's not really any, there are no women in this world. Like, in the world of, you know, police departments at this time and newspapers. Like, they were secretaries, you know? And that's part of the reason why the movie is that way. And I think you could make the case that her character is like, It's basically an active comment on this world at that time by saying, like, this woman has infinite patience for her insane cartoonist husband. Yeah. Who can't make time to take care of his children because he's trying to solve a crime. It's really an advertisement for dating services that I don't think we're around yet. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to need a few more. Yeah. Thank you, Raya. Do I have a flex? You can take one right now. I just had the Rick Dalton Award. What is it? For the greatest fucking acting I've ever seen. It's Downey on the houseboat Being like Somebody should write a book About what? He's also doing the David Duchovny and Larry Sanders Am I going to see your balls hanging out here On this scene? Yes, there's a lot of thighs It's an epic amount of thigh The whole houseboat scene is just Unbelievable The CR thinks Luke Wilson could have been Harrison Ford Hottest take award I kind of did a little bit of the PTA QT thing but I will also say that I think the thrill the dark thrill of the Zodiac were it to happen today would be ruined by everybody trying to figure out who he voted for you know there would be no like oh this is cool watch out don't go out at night because it would just be like that motherfucker's a brony bro you know like it would just be it would suck It's probably more like this guy did Jan 6. Yeah. Do you have a hottest take? I do. This is the greatest American crime film ever made, and it's the only crime film that really portrays what it's like to try to solve a crime. And no other movie is really interested in that because that's not very cinematic. Who's second? Gone 60 seconds, probably. Like, I love Heat, right? That's a great movie. I love Manhunter. I love the work of Michael Mann. All of those movies are about the psychology and obsession that is portrayed in this movie, but they're not really about like solving the crimes or even doing the crimes in the same way. And this was a real story too. Do you think that it's because it's more of an act of journalism than it is an act of crime solving? It helps. Yeah. It helps. And I think the truth is, is that I made that point about our dads because they're kind of similar jobs. You know, they require a very similar kind of ethic. You have to be kind of shrewd. You have to be comfortable digging really deep into things. You've got to be comfortable being bored by the work that you do sometimes. There's a reason that there's connectivity between these guys at this time in history, because they have a very similar approach to the world. My hottest take, Craig kind of stepped on it earlier, but in a way maybe he doesn't realize. I'm actually going the opposite way. I think Zodiac was the GOAT. Now, maybe he didn't finish a couple murders. The GOAT serial killer of all time. Never caught. so good he might have also been the black dahlia killer which was another one who wasn't caught drove detectives and journalists fucking crazy created a world that led to books and movies and is still going on reddit ambidextrous swimmer yeah yeah yeah he's hardin great nickname nobody what serial killer has ever given themselves a better nickname than zodiac you like that more Oh, easily. Best gimmick. Son of Sam was just fucking wacko. He was talking to his dog. Yeah, Zodiac very measured. Yeah, Zodiac had his shirt together. And I just think he had just a phenomenal run, and the fact that nobody has been able to solve this is unbelievable. So I think if you're talking goats or you're talking Mount Rushmore or whatever. Getting away with it is number one. Yeah? It is. Not only getting away with it, but then leaving this whole universe behind of theories. And it's basically the JFK assassination for a serial killer. I had no idea. We solved all the other ones. How thriving the community was. They're still doing incredible work online. Every day. Yeah. Every day. When you Google it, so many things come up. You don't even know, like, which one to click on. Yeah. There's, like, subreddit to the subreddit. 55 years old. Yeah. Like, we don't, you don't even. By the way, we're not any closer to figuring out who did it. Yeah. Yeah It's a crazy one But I think Craig made a good point Finish the job Well you're going kind of the Bill Russell case here For his time You think Zodiac just played against plumbers You know what I mean Yeah like they're in the pre-internet Pre-departments Being able to coordinate investigations Yeah the police department's didn't have fax machines Not exactly And it's fair You have like The LeBron of serial killers they all get caught what's aged the worst is serial killers serial killing has aged the worst well I think it's just too hard DNA, cameras no I just think I don't think we're going to see another one honestly there's a camera every house has a ring camera there was a story about there might have been a Houston serial killer because they found all these bodies they don't know what happened I don't believe that one I think we have too much technology And he might have coasted off other kills that he took credit for. Which I would argue is clever. Because it completely threw them off the scent in the investigation. It got, you know, like, Mullen acts as, like, I like this guy. And you're like, well, what does that guy have to do with any other kill? And he's like, yeah, but I have evidence that shows that he's connected to this one. So it creates this distortion effect around the investigation. It's really smart. It doesn't mean the Zodiac is, like, a brain genius. But he clearly did things with a level of manipulation that does distinguish him from other serial killers. I mean, ultimately, the great serial killers have a calling card. Like, Dahmer's like, I just like eating people. Like, this is an all-in-game to me. Eating other humans, that's my thing. I love it. Whenever you do this, you make it sound like he looked into the camera and said to his story. Like, Ted Bundy's like, I just love the ladies. Yeah, and there's a dark side to it. I love the ladies. Zodiac was like, I actually like being in the mix. here are my thoughts he was like the first podcaster here are my thoughts on the Dirty Harry movie he liked the attention of what he was doing even things that weren't Zodiac like the call to Melvin Belli which is a guy in a mental institution making the phone call it goes towards the Zodiac's legacy it's like her building off of Mark Jackson's work you know all that hard work that Mark did who drafted Draymond You know, he gets to cash himself back. Cashing what-ifs. Mark was playing Monta Ellis over Steph Curry. It is true. He was saving him. Cashing what-ifs. Gary Oldman was supposed to play Melvin Belay, but physically they decided it couldn't work, so they got Logan Roy instead. Ironically, he did go on to play Churchill, who was way fatter than Gary Oldman and won an Academy Award for it. Gyllenhaal was the first choice for Graysmith from Fincher, but if he had said no, they had Orlando Bloom lined up. You know the story, right, of who it was who tipped Fincher off to the two leads of this movie? It was Aniston. His best pal, Jennifer Aniston, who said, I really liked working with Jake Gyllenhaal in The Good Girl and Mark Ruffalo in what's the rom-com that they were in together? Just Like Heaven or something? No, Rumor Has It. Rumor Has It. Was it from Rumor Has It? Rumor Has It. Yeah. And then he's like, you like them? Why don't you play the cult? Chloe Seventeen wrote. She said, no thanks. Yeah. No thanks. They got a rom-com to do. Fincher wanted Brad Pitt as Avery before settling on down him. Basically would have been course and true romance as a journalist. Yeah, it would have been a little distracting. Can we talk it out? Sure. Has anyone who looks like Brad Pitt ever been a journalist? Brad Pitt really good at playing down. True. True. Is this like Snatch era Brad Pitt? No, this is mid-2000s. I've settled down with Angelina and we're adopting kids every nine months. It's like Troy and Mr. and Mrs. Smith. Yeah. Post Mr. and Mrs. Smith, pre-Benjamin Button. Yeah. Pre-Moneyball. I mean, he's in Assassination of Justin James. If he's just doing Floyd from True Romance in this movie, I'm not necessarily. I'm willing to entertain it. The thing is that Downey brings the fast-talking energy that a guy, a smart-aleck journalist would have. And I think you need that. And Pitt doesn't really do that. Right. He plays dumb really well. He plays low-key or burnt-out really well. And he's always clever as Rusty in the Oceans movies, but not fast. He has a little bit more stoner, whereas Downey has a little bit more uppers. Yeah. That guy award. We're saying John Carroll Lynch, not eligible? Probably not. Probably not for us. Did you know who that was, Craig? Recognize him, don't know his name. There's better ones. Two guys from the editorial meeting, which is John Getz and John Terry, the editor-in-chief and the publisher I think John Getz is John Getz I feel like he's been in too many things John Terry's a good one John Terry's really good Charles Fleischer who the guy in the basement yep he pretty much that guy I have two big ones One of the cops was the priest from The Sopranos who was trying to get it on with Carmelo but not really Yes. Getting drunk with him. Father, what was his name? Father, I can't remember. The other night when he goes on the college tour with Meadow, near home getting drunk, and it seems like something's going to happen. He throws that guy. He's in this. And then one of the cops in the scene you like, when they go to location. Yeah. Skippy from Kicking and Screaming. Yeah. Who was also Colin the drug dealer in Beverly Hills, 90210, who had that great run. Ten years later, ends up in Zodiac. But I think that's a good that guy. That's a great that guy. I think he's on like Chicago Fire now, one of those. Okay, the problem with doing 500 episodes of this show is that. You know all the people? But just to every normal human being, Zach Greiner, Philip Baker Hall, Elias Koteas, James LeGrow, Donald Logue, John Carroll Lynch, John Terry, June Diane, Raphael, Adam Goldberg. These people are that guys. Yeah. They are the definitive that guys. We both deep cut that guys. But he's not letting me have John Getz. Right. If you can't have John Getz, then like part of why the movie is so good is that Fincher has the best taste for supporting players. That they graduated that guy. Yes. The Priest from The Sopranos. I don't know. That's a really good one. That's a really good one. Yeah. The DM Waiters Award for biggest heat check in the movie. John Carroll Lynch eligible. I think he's in two and a half scenes. Basement guy. Charles Fleischer, yeah. Charles Fleischer, one scene. Charles Fleischer and Clay Duvall. Clay Duvall is the pinnacle of this category because she has one scene. Yes. And the camera doesn't move off of her. By the originalist document, he is right. I had Cox. He's in two full scenes. Mm-hmm. And has, like, one of the most, like, let me put a little bit of seasoning on this. It's like, wow. Like, when he gets out of the cab, like, you know, like, all the helicopters are swirling. But it's clear Duvall's pretty high up there. Low-key nomination, Melvin Belize Housekeeper. When she drops the cookies off. She's like, I spoke to him. She's really good in that scene. Yeah, she was good. Is that important? Recasting Couch Director or City. Can we talk Anthony Edwards for one second? Mm-hmm. can I can I attempt you with a little Michael Keaton too big for that role yeah so you'll you'll enjoy this I if you have not listened to the commentary I highly recommend you do because Fincher is constantly using sports references and it sounds great he uses the phrase moving without the ball a lot and what kind of actors do that and he described Anthony Edwards as the assist, that he is the living embodiment of the assist. And if you watch him work in movies, even when he's the star, he's making other people seem better. And that was his role on ER in the center of that show. That became George Clooney and Julianna Margulies and Eric LaSalle and all the people who were on that show at that time. And in this movie, he's kind of the most important detective. Toski is not the most important detective. He's the guy who's getting more information, who's getting more stuff down, who's driving the action more who kind of incites more moments you just don't feel it because of the way that anthony edwards acts and also fincher said that his kids went to school together and that's why he's in the movie he's like i knew him from our kids going to school together among the saddest moments in the entire movie is when armstrong's like you keep the car because you're just like fuck it broke him you know like and you're just like the whole time you're wondering and he's kind of getting more tired and exasperated by it but when he leaves the movie there's like a certain quality of goodness that leaves the movie. It's like, it's been destroyed by this case. It's really good. Keaton has the Dermot Mulrooney role? Sure. Just trying to work him in here somewhere. He did that in The Other Guys, right? Yeah. They could just get Special Agent Ray Nicolette. My other note is, I just don't know why John Slattery's not in this movie and I don't know who he's going to play. John Terry is kind of playing John Slattery, right? John Slattery is just added. Slattery was in Charlie Wilson's War yelling at Don't see more. Yeah, maybe that's why he was in it. Sean, you have a... So you finish for four years? It feels like that could be on, like, the rewatchables 2028 list, Charlie Wilson's War. There's, like, six perfect scenes in that movie. I really think Julia's great in that movie. Yeah. The weak link is Hank's miscast. Which has happened a few times. Yeah. You have a flex category. I got two really quick ones, one of which we've talked about a lot, but it's worth noting given the intelligence of this category. The Tom Sizemore action is the Juice Award best toe-to-toe moment for a non-star, which is clearly John Carroll Lynch up against Mark Ruffalo and winning that scene. Like him being the most mesmerizing person in that scene, opposite, you know, three really well-known actors, but really Ruffalo coming into his own. And then the Dan Campbell scale for holy shit, are they really going for it right now is the basement scene. Yeah. Where you're like, oh my God. Are you making how many now? Oh my God. oh my god and that's good it you know like i said at the time when it came out i felt like we were going to another level of the movie half-assener research um we mentioned a lot of this stuff already they used a lot of the photos to try to figure out what stuff looked like back then how many vw bugs should be in there the cars are really good in this movie and how they change over the decade um we talked about the digital Thompson Viper film stream camera which was the first one movie like this so there was a this guy Ray Cantrell made a Zodiac killer movie probably not the one with John Holmes in 1972 they made this movie to try to catch Zodiac in the theater did you follow the story did this just get put out by Eureka or something like that it's been around for a couple years they make like this bad Zodiac movie and the guy funds it because he was friends with one of the people who either got murdered or almost murdered and they show the show it in san francisco for like two weeks and they're hiding and in some part of the theater like in this freezer that barely had enough oxygen scouting all the people that come in and then they claim at one point they feel like the zodiac came in and they talked to him in the bathroom but weren't able to like keep them and it's this whole like weird it's almost like a movie within the movie that probably would be bad um that's kind of like snake eyes. They set up this whole sting inside of a huge event. Yeah. Robert Downey Jr.'s four straw trick that he does with the three straws, pick the fourth, 26 takes. Did he get it right or he made him do it 26 times? He showed Fincher, asked to perform it, and then they kept doing it. You mentioned the blood thing. This is a great Mark Ruffalo quote. I'll never forget when they were negotiating my deal for Zodiac. The student negotiator literally said to my manager, look, we don't give a shit about Mark Ruffalo. We don't even want Mark Ruffalo as a smoothie. So you're going to take what we're offering or forget it. That was his memory of how he got the part. Yeah, that's why you hired Rich Paul. That's right. And then Robert Gray Smith's cocktail. It's vodka, gin, lemon, lime, and blue caracow. Yeah, I've never been a big blue. That just feels like the vomit special. That's just the Long Island iced tea dyed blue, basically. Yeah, that's like I'm throwing up tomorrow. I don't even drink blue Gatorade. Apex Mountain. Fincher? Do we need to explain Apex Mountain now that we're on Netflix? Go ahead. Yeah. Controversial category. How would you describe it? 425 movies in. Apex Mountain. When somebody was at the peak of their powers career-wise, had the most use they're ever going to have in their career. Was this the moment for that? that's technically Apex Mountain even though we've argued that I think it is for Fincher I do not I think it's social network for Fincher but don't you think this is a product of social network no because it's before but isn't this is before social I see what you're saying yeah I this movie comes after a five year break off of a successful but modest movie in Panic Room and this movie did not do well at the box office and was not it was really well reviewed but was not considered a masterpiece in its time. He needed Social Network to have his, like, okay, this guy is also a commercial box office guy. And Social Network was another for hire job, you know, that was with a script from a well-known screenwriter. I would just, creatively, and I know that this is not going, but I think creatively this is, like, him. No, you could go creative Fincher as an Apex man. I think this is him just, like, combining some of the deep artistry of his early work and, like, with the brave new world of the digital photography that he's working with and obviously has a personal connection to this material in a way that sometimes it doesn't always feel like he does. I think he's a re-Apex candidate because I think Fight Club is his first Apex Mountain because he uses the success of his good movies. Yeah, and he basically makes a movie about how the only way to fix capitalism is to destroy it. Early 90s Bulls version of the Apex. And then I think there's never been a higher moment for him than Gone Girl, where he's like, I can take an airport novel and make it a $500 million movie. And nobody else can do this. Then he's like, and next up, a Netflix series that CR is going to love the most. It's true. Serial killer movies. Yes. Silence. That's a tough one. Does that count as a serial killer movie, though? Yeah. He's got a nickname. He's moving around. He's doing his thing. Yeah, you're right. You think this is better than Manhunter? Yeah. It's a totally different movie. CR's right. It's silence. True crime movies fantasy made the case earlier, yes. Downey, no. Ruffalo, no. Ruffalo as a detective in a movie, Apex Mountain. This collateral or... Task, a TV show? Yeah. I think it's this he's really he's not in Collateral very much I love his look in Collateral me too the goatee slick back hair fucking great him and Pete Berg running through the way him and Pete Berg that's a separate movie I wanted I told you that when I talked to him for task I basically did Chris Farley on him remember that time remember in Collateral when you had the goatee and he was like yeah and I was like that was awesome Gyllenhaal It's kind of arguable Because he's broke back than this Except the movie didn't do that well So I don't think this can be as Apex Mountain Probably later right I think his best performance Is maybe still Nightcrawler But That's a really good movie Apex Doesn't he do Prince of Persia right before this Boo Because that movie stinks, obviously, but that was when he was, like, trying to become... He's going to get ripped. Maybe we're in the End of Watch era when he starts doing... That's right. Chris & Bridges 2010. Yeah, Chris & Bridges 2010. So maybe it's this because this allows him to kind of springboard into that. Is it the End of Watch Prisoners era where he's like, I'm now an established. You can put me on a poster in different movies and people will probably go? Yeah, probably. San Francisco movies, no. What is? 48 Hours? No It's probably the one from the 70s Both of which are basically based on this story Chloe Sevigny Nope Last Days of Disco Yeah we did that on the rewatch This is a good one Fincher Villains I'll give you as nominees John Doe in Seven Mark Zuckerberg in Social Network Or Arthur Lee Allen in this movie Unless you want to count Sean Penn in the game I'd probably go John Doe Definitely not Jared Leto With the With Panic Room? Yeah I think it's John Doe When we watched Seven last week That scene when he's in the car with Brad Pitt And he's pushing Brad Pitt And trying to make him mad And Brad Pitt finally said I'm like You're a fucking t-shirt We were just like holy shit Spacey is amazing in that movie I guess it's just two different versions of Villainy right The Zuckerberg thing is like The portrayal of Zuckerberg We should have known Finch is trying to tell us So acid man The way that he sees him As this sad pathetic ambition monster Zuckerberg didn't totally realize it Remember when Jesse Asberg hosted SNL Zuckerberg was like yeah I'll make a cameo He didn't get it San Francisco Chronicle both in real life and then in a movie. I felt like this was... They were right at the center of it. They were in the epicenter of everything. Yeah. You know what's interesting about all of his villains, by the way, is he doesn't psychologize any of them. He doesn't say, oh, well, like, this happened to me, and so I'm like this, and I do this. Zuckerberg, John Doe, Arthur Lee Allen. It's not like, oh, well, the way he was his upbringing, or he witnessed a traumatic event. He's not interested in that. For the most part, for a certain period, like, nobody talked like that. Yeah, yeah. They just did. Things, yeah. John Carroll Lynch movies? This or Fargo? Yes. John Carroll Lynch? Right now. Sure. Shout out to JCL. He's doing great. He's a great actor. Shout out to Joka. Donovan Music? Joka, a little closer to Joka. I think it's Aquarius and Goodfellas. Oh, see, I love the ending of To Die For with Season of the Witch. you know the season of the witch Nino dropped into Die Force pretty great Donovan secret movie soundtrack or getting absolutely dunked on and don't look back the Bob Dylan documentary it's Donovan when Tommy beats up Billy Bats right that's the answer also the father of Ioni Sky that's right who of course is in the movie Sierra Apex Mountain for Wooden Dildos yeah I would imagine I mean I can't think of any other it's probably the porn parody I would say. They still sell those? You still have them or no? You have to go to a specialty store. It's a craftsman item. I feel like there's a real splinter issue there that we've got to examine. Not if you get the right kind of lacquer. High quality. Yeah, I see. Yeah. You really need to buff it down first. Yeah. And then you can kind of get that grease on it. Yeah. Apex Mountain for actual Fincher movies. What do you mean? Is this the best Fincher movie? Oh. Well, this is why I get to do Apex Mountain. I just threw that in as a bonus category. I think this is the best Fincher movie. Yes. I do, too. It's my favorite. I mean, what is best? You know, like, watching Seven to this day is still just really fun. You know, it's just really entertaining, and it still glides. We've done it. I would reach Seven tomorrow. I thought Tarantino made a really good case when he was talking about his, like, best movies of the century or whatever, and he was talking about how he didn't love Zodiac the first time, and every time he watches it, he's just stunned by how amazing it is, and each time it gets better. Yeah. which I think is a really rare place for a movie to get to where it's like, it's the 11th time I've watched this. Holy shit. Yeah. Mank and the Killer do not have strong reputations. I would encourage people to revisit them again and look at them and try to give them the same attitude that you were willing to give to Zodiac, to Gone Girl, to Social Network, because they are so rewarding. I think people don't like those stories as much, and I understand that, and some people just watch movies for stories. but if you like to watch movies to understand how a movie is made and what the filmmaker is thinking there's so much cool shit in both of those movies yeah i agree at least with one of those okay all right cruiser hanks hanks is graysmith it's funny i thought cruise is graysmith i think cruise is tosky i would i would be interested in i'd see i could see hanks is tosky well we have to pick cruiser hanks you pick hanks yeah i'm picking cruise i think it's fun to have Cruz in this movie. I do too. Okay. I think it's Cruz. I like Hank Sestosky. Cruz is great. Hank Sestosky's good, but then we lose Ruffalo. Yeah. What about like 1988 cocktail era Cruz as Gyllenhaal's character? Yeah, that works. That works. Yeah, good thing this is completely made up. We don't really have to choose. I know, he keeps stats. Cruz is like so when he runs out of the guy's house after he's in the basement what if my car was parked two streets away and I really had to sprint and full speed with the puddle I think that I will say that Cruz having done Eyes Wide Shut would be used to doing a hundred takes of something I love it man Dave keeps telling me to do stuff I don't know if Hanks has ever done that I don't know if he's ever had somebody who's like We're doing it again. We're doing it again. I don't know. He worked with Stan the Man. I mean. Hanks hasn't. Cruise did. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So Hanks were, didn't Dale Hay, Frank Darabont? Didn't he do this? Oh. I thought he was a big take guy. Was he a big take guy for the Green Mile? Freeman still batted him for some reason. Is that true? It's like Freeman, you're in one of the most iconic movies of the last 40 years. Can't complain. I mean, that's got him up for life. Yeah. Scorsese or Spielberg? I have either. No, that's not an answer. Okay, so two things. Scorsese has never made a procedural. This is not what he does. Yes. He's not interested in this aspect of the world. He's interested in how people move through the world. You know what he is interested in? The Rolling Stones in 1969, 1970, San Francisco. And guys doing bumps and bars. I think it just becomes an ultimate San Francisco. I think it's only set in two years. I don't think he cares what happens after. It would just fundamentally be a different movie. The same way that, like, you can tell the James Vanderbilt script, which I'm sure was very good on First Pass, Fincher changed a lot. You know, like, he brought a lot to that. And so, yeah, if Scorsese comes in and he's like, I want to do my version of this, and it's, you know, post-Altamont, we're rocking and rolling through this murder time. I mean, he made Summer of Sam, right? Like, he made a movie like this, but he didn't make it about the killer. He made it about what was happening to people around this time. So, my answer is Spielberg. I have Scorsese just because I'd want to see the movie. I would just be worried that this Spielberg version of this turns out like The Post, which isn't a bad movie but it's just a little bit more like we just gotta work hard to find this guy I don't think Spielberg's dark enough for this movie this movie's dark maybe Best Tang, Worst Tang Paul Avery, clearly Best Tang Best Bar Night, yeah I think Zodiac, I'm gonna go Worst Tang wanna come back to my house wanna come back to my trailer and watch the Warriors game By far. Hold on, let me put the squirrels away. I laid out a day for us. A little bit of skin diving. Then we're going to cook up some squirrel. I got a bunch of nudie mags. Well, in the Zodiac documentary that was on Netflix in 24, they interviewed these two kids that he had befriended the family. And at one point, he takes them for a trip. And they end up, both of them don't remember two days because he drugged them. Because I think he needed an alibi. It also might have probably molested one of the kids. but it was during one of the crimes that he committed where he brought the kids with him on location. Or so they said. This is another murder that is not a part of the Zodiac investigation that they talk about where they say he basically went down to a beach and may have killed someone on a beach. Oh, is this one where he took a shot into a group of teenagers or something? And then a day later there was a murder and they were like, we were just there yesterday? And also, I don't remember the last two days. Yeah. Zodiac, worst thing. Picky Nets. Why is the cartoonist in the high-level editorial meetings when they're reading the Zodiac letter, which is probably the most important thing in this thing that's happening? Fincher said he's like, I don't think Avery is in these meetings either. It's just we needed it for the movie to get everybody sort of connected to the letters. Getting the information at the same time. Ione Skye's character falling for the your wheel looks loose trick. Come on, honey. You got a kid in the car. Fincher says he definitively does not think that that was the Zodiac. That the Kathleen John story is not the Zodiac. It's just another crazy person on the side. What does he say to her? Like, they don't need much help when I'm done with them or something? God damn it. What other nitpicks do you have? The only thing I had, Sean mentioned it earlier, but Toski being like, I can't help you, but if I were to help you, I'd tell you to call Ken Narlow. So, like, help or don't help, but, like, we don't have to make this into the Riddler, you know? Yeah. It'd be funny if NBA trades worked like that. We got to trade LeBron. Shit's falling apart and St. Price is like I can't help you but if I were to help you Call Orlando They can help I have a sort of related Picking nit just about the Insanity of being a police detective Where three Detectives are in a room They're talking to the guy they're Almost certain is the Zodiac killer he's wearing to Craig's point a Zodiac watch And They can't get him and then Toski's like I'm going to keep working on this case on and off for the next seven years I am the sole proprietor of the investigation but like I don't believe that Toski accepted the handwriting thing and so what was he actually doing thinking about the case there's been 200 murders in the last four years those are other families that want answers so I think they just got too spread out would be my guess I have another one I saw this on one of the reddit things I'm stealing it which normally doesn't happen in rewatchables but we were all reading so much reddit when the zodiac thing I stumbled across this one so apologies to who I'm taking this from Chloe on the first date orders penne ala vodka but asks to substitute a cream sauce that's fucking stupid penne ala vodka is a cream sauce I don't know how it would be can you say I don't want vodka can you make a cream sauce instead? So the real picking nit, and again, this comes from the director of commentary, did not exist until the 1980s. Hene Alla Vodka with the cream sauce was a recipe that was popularized in the 1980s. So what does Fincher say? Like, this is actually a fake order? No, he's like, we fucked up. Fincher, who recreates the San Francisco Chronicle office. That is a cream sauce. True picking nit. Can I go back to Apex Mountain and knock this down a couple of days in the end? If I was on a date and somebody ordered penne alla vodka, but then wanted to substitute it for cream sauce, I would have made it. I got to make a call right back and I'm out. Sorry. Hey, this girl I'm here with has a head injury and I can't date her. I have a small picking net on behalf of my mother-in-law who was there watching the movie with us last night. When Melanie and Gray Smith are arguing about how Gray Smith is kind of starting to gain notoriety in the paper, he goes, Ah, well, no one's, he's not going to read Herb Cain. And my mother-in-law shouts out, Everybody read Herb Cain. And then we found out that the Zodiac did read Herb Cain. Yeah. Oh, wow. He actually mentions Herb Cain in a letter, right? That's a good one. Yeah. Oversight by Gravesman. Sequel, prequel, prestige, TV, all black cast are untouchable. Became prestige TV. They did my letter, yeah. Is this movie better with Wayne Jenkins, Fergie the Florist, Buffalo Bill, Doris Burke, or someone else here? If Fergie wrote one of the Zodiac letters. You better keep your kids off that school bus Or I'll take them out The Zodiac way I'll shoot out the front tire And then pick the kiddies off And they come bouncing out You're gonna do this for me I don't know what that voice is But it's sort of It's become Bono across the I thought for sure you were gonna do Doris DB? Yeah Mr. Zodiac Mr. Poe Zodiac, we see the patients with all your symbols. I'm trying to decipher your game, Mr. Zodiac. And I cannot. Just one Oscar who gets it, Fincher. Probably an answerable question. I have two good ones. Do you guys have any? Who's the Zodiac? I have the same thing down here. In these movies or TV shows, why don't cops realize that the serial killers always start with somebody they know? This seems to be the big revelation with 20 minutes to go in the movie. Silas Lamp, he knew her. He knew what he covets. It's like, yeah, no fucking kidding. This is every murder. All the stuff with Darlene and Mike kind of being like, we know who this is. This is so creepy in the movie. Yeah, just go back and interview everybody. The recognition. Okay, so this is kind of, this is related to that. I wanted to ask you both initially if there was ever anything that was not related to the work that you do that you would have been willing to kind of throw your life away to explore the way that Graysmith did. For CR, it's Edie Falco and Copland. I'm not sure if that requires a life's work. It might be a life's fascination. Like, do I have, like, an obsession that I would take so far that I would get rid of? Well, it depends on, like... But it can't be, like, related to the Sixers or Prestige Television. No. You know what I mean? That's the problem with what we do is that we get to bring the passions into our professions. It's the best part about what we do. But like, what would be something like the MCL? Okay, so my follow-up. The MCL. If you guys don't. Learning about the ligament. What's up with you? Come on, you know? I didn't like how the fixers looked last night. I'm officially threatened. So did you specifically ever seriously consider criminology? No. forensic science no serial killer investigation no I would do that I told you guys I would do these deep dives with like all the president's men and then I'm just like throwing myself in a water gate for three weeks in 1991 but I would always get bored and move on to the next thing but for what? just for that weird thing that we have right but he's doing this just for fun too the Zodiac? Robert Christmas no but at some point he starts seeing dollar signs he's like I can turn this you think that's what it was? I think at some point I think he was obsessed with it but then was also like, wait, I can make money from this. I wonder if Melanie wishes she hung out. I have a really important unanswerable. Was there an easier job ever than 1970s handwriting expert? What were your qualifications? What made somebody better than somebody else? Basically, this guy just brings out a magnifying glass and he's like, and a big glass of whiskey. But you can't tell, like, can you tell that somebody does a K with three strokes or two? Like, would you be able to do that? This guy's fucking bombed with a giant Sherlock Holmes thing. And he's deciding murder cases. Never heard of magnifying glass described as a giant Sherlock Holmes thing. Yeah. He's like, oh, hold on, let me get my monocle. I'll really be able to tell this. I'm going to zag on this. I got a very specific real world reason for that. Woke up early this morning to get ready to come over here to do the pod. My daughter Alice is awake, and she's sitting at what we call the messy table where she, you know, draws and colors and stuff. And she's learning how to write. She's got her notebook open. This is the most beautiful thing I've ever seen. I get out of bed at 7 o'clock in the morning. She's already awake sitting at this table by herself drawing in a notebook. I was worried you were going to say Zodiac symbols. Well, her drawing does somewhat recall some of the Zodiac cryptography. but you can already see at four and a half that she has like patterns with the way that she draws letters she has a style there is like a kind of perverse art to individual handwriting i've never spent any time studying it i don't know what the fuck i'm talking about but just watching her develop like literally learning from nothing to i can draw a i can draw l i can draw i you could kind of see now this this guy phil baker hall he might have been a full-blown alcoholic for all Could a killer be ambidextrous? No. Not in my 38 years. Sean's story reminds me of when I was first learning how to draw. And, like, in kindergarten, one of the first things I kind of learned how to replicate were ninjas. I realized how to draw ninjas. And in kindergarten, I did, like, basically a mural of death of ninjas killing each other. And they had to have me talk to, like, a child. Oh, Jesus. You're like the cute insidious. But it was just because it was the first thing. like an older kid was like, if you ever want to draw a ninja, this is how you do it. It was like three triangles and a guy with blood splurting out of his head. What piece of memorabilia would you want or not want from this movie? The I am not Paul Avery button. That was a good one. Yeah. I like that. Houseboat? To your point, it's not really memorabilia. I'll allow it. I'm going with the not want, the wooden dildo. That just seems like an awful artifact. Like, imagine that behind Sean's head right now. What's that? It's a wooden build-up from Zodiac. Maybe don't put it there. Maybe you have to digitally insert it like Fincher would. Probably, like, one of the original letters or all of the original letter recreations that they did for the Zodiac things would be a cool thing to have. Oh, one of the actual letters that were written. And his scrapbook is cool, too. His whole scrapbook of all the newspaper murders. That would be cool. Coach Finstock, Mr. Miyagi Award for best or worst life lesson. It's really a throwaway line in this movie, but it's not finished until you type it up. It's a really good life lesson. Which is basically movies aren't finished, they're abandoned. Yeah. I had don't ever give up figuring out a murder investigation, even if it costs you your family and your sanity, because it might lead to a David Fincher movie. Just keep going. Keep pushing. Pintro might be waiting for you He loves obsession Just keep going Did you have a life lesson? Can't stop that Best double feature? All the presents men Dirty Harry I want to go after this movie I need a change of pacer I'd go Dirty Harry first Then I would do this Dirty Harry is the exciting version Of this story that is solved Zodiac is the real version of the story that is unsolvable. It is. I never really fully realized that until I was doing the research, how much Dirty Harry kind of informed Isn't it Scorpio and Dirty Harry? How they kind of just ripped off Zodiac and made Dirty Harry with Quinny's story. It's also such a different there was just so much more local media back then, so the idea that Koski would be this character in the newspapers and be a character based on him and the tales from the city columns and that bullet and dirty harry would have like his gun style and stuff like that so i was watching some interviews with tosky and ruffalo's performance doesn't really sound like him you know ruffalo does that like what did you say what do you mean by that like that kind of whispery kind of chattery style and tosky talks more like a lot of cops that i knew growing up which were just like like what do you mean buddy come on over here you know like yeah like metropolis yes detective guy and it sounds like what ruffalo is doing is like i haven't had my coffee yet dirty harry like he kind of is doing the clint eastwood voice they're like well do you punk in his voice so it's this weird thing where like those movies are in such harmony together that even in the performance of Toski, and he met Toski. He spent time with him for the role, but he's not trying to do an impression of him. It's really interesting. It's interesting also that they're police officers, but we never see him actually in an action scene or anything. We never see him like... The most cop thing he does is the taxi cab pricing. We never see him like, wait! Who's that? And do a chase scene, holding the gun up. I don't think he ever holds a gun in the movie. He has it holstered, but it's... He's got that easy access holster. Who won the movie? Venture. Agreed. pretty easily Fincher okay I mean did the Zodiac Killer win the movie? because he got away? well because his myth is burnished by this film I think it's notable how much this movie is still on like I feel like it's been I know it's leaving Netflix maybe at the end of January but I'm sure it'll come back but it feels like people continue to consume this which was ironically one of my cases with Limitless when we did the 50 most rewatchable. I looked at where Limitless was just streaming right now on that Just Watch app, and it was on like Amazon, Paramount, like it's literally everywhere because there's a reason people keep clicking on this. I never, when I saw Zodiac in 07, I never thought that would be the destiny of this movie as a rewatchable in your life. Usually what we would call a rewatchable is something that's like 90 minutes to two hours that has like recognizable peaks and valleys that you can be like oh i want to stay for this or i i can leave for that yeah and with zodiac it's almost more like prestige television where you could watch this in 40 minute bursts if you wanted to there are little breaks here to like you know with the fade out you can step away if you want to and start it again the next day so i wonder whether or not some of the success is its relationship to what would become mindhunter in the way that Fincher want to tell this kind of story. There's something else related to it, too, that I kind of meant to say at the beginning of the conversation is it's hard to do most rewatchable scene for the movie because the scenes are so short. There are not a lot of scenes where you're like, oh, I was here for 10 minutes. The cutting style of this movie reminds me a little bit of Oppenheimer and later period Nolan where it's like really dense, important scenes that are like 30 seconds long. Yes. It feels like an elaborate montage the whole movie. It's a It's a funky movie. You know, like, it's not like the point you just made about how Ruffalo's never running with a gun. Like, that's obviously a very intentional choice. But it's so different from almost any other movie of its kind. Do we ever see Downey typing? Yeah. Yeah, we do. Cause him a late homosexual. Yeah, right, right, right. All right, Craig, what's your take? You never saw this movie. Never saw this movie. I would argue, I know you said you like to watch this with no pants on alone. I think this is a decent family watch. I think it's a generational connector. Yeah. Because I was texting my dad as I watched it. I watched it with Liz's parents. And there's a lot of, like, they described to us how things worked back in the day. We were asking questions, but it was made in 07, so there's modern filmmaking to it. I'm more familiar with Fincher films than my parents or her parents, and yet they knew everything about living in California in, like, the 70s and 80s. So actually, and it's not really as gory as I thought it was going to be. Even the deaths, like you said earlier, they're not sensationalized or romantic at all. No. They're a little tame, at least to what I'm used to and what I expected coming into a Fincher film. Yeah. I think it's why, like you said, you were a little bit lukewarm when you first saw it. I feel like you do kind of back into this movie because you go in expecting something completely different. And then now, I mean, even hearing you guys talk, I'm like, this really, it felt like creepy, all the president's men. Yeah. And you end up respecting that. And it's a movie you really want to dig into. You have to turn your phone upside down. And after the movie was over, we talked about it for 30 minutes. And it's almost a puzzle that is not meant to be solved. movies. Yeah. Yeah. It kind of is. It brings the fan together. It's not really a puzzle. I mean, half the time I didn't know what was going on and we kind of discussed how all these names and all these connections were pretty blurry and we had trouble with that and we realized this is more just about. Yeah. That's the turn when it goes to Graysmiths and the way that they leap to Marshall is like you have to really be dialed in on totally pieces of paper that they've got or like quick conversations that they have. So since I want to see it again soon, you think I should show it to Alice tonight? What do you think we should do? Not the John Holmes film. Maybe this one. Got it. Yeah. But this is totally a movie. Craig's asking his mother-in-law, what's the wooden dildos back then? Did they really have those? One thing I texted my dad, who was a police officer, I was like, there's a moment where they go up to this thing that literally says police telephone on the street. Yeah. They open it up and there was a phone in there. I've never seen that before in my life. He's like, oh, yeah, those are the thing. He's like, right when I started, they basically disappeared when people got cell phones. Yeah. But, yeah, never seen those before. But this movie was great. It's a huge thumbs up. Big thumbs up. And it's something you need to revisit. Like, I already want to go back and now watch this again. All right, so strong. So we had another 48 hours. He liked that one. Just one of the guys was bad. So now we've rallied back. I got the rare, like, panicked text from Craig about just one of the guys on, like, a Friday afternoon where he was like, hey, man, just, like, level with me. What's going on with this one? That's it for the first rewatchables on Netflix. Sadly, these aren't going to be on YouTube anymore, but happily they're going to be on Netflix. I think we blasted past the running time of the film. podcast running time. Also, if you have Netflix, you can click on the watch list thing for all of our podcasts, but especially this one's once a week. So anytime we do a new one, it'll just pop up on the thing. And we're going to try to do Netflix movies over the course of the next two months at least. So follow me on Twitter because I will tell you what's coming or my podcast, Bill Simmons Podcast. What's coming next? I'll let you know. I don't know what the order is, but I know we're circling wild things pretty hard. Ace Ventura, which we've never done. That's on there. And then two four-minute films. The recastaway is looming. But is it going to be a solo recastaway? It will not be a solo because I did castaway by myself during COVID, which I still feel like was my 81-point game. Those were Apex Mountain. Kobe had his 81-point game. I have solo castaway during COVID. Yeah. But we need to redo that one at some point. But we have a lot of good ones. There might be a Michael Mann movie doing live in Los Angeles next month. But that's it for Rewatch. The key is live? It's Black Hat, actually. Yeah, we're going to explain it. And then Big Picture, which is also going to be on Netflix. Yeah. And then a lot of rumors about live right after the Oscars. So some rumors. Could happen. Yeah. Where is it going to be taking place? Am I going to be inside of the Dolby Theater? Literally, it might be here. Will I be on stage receiving an Oscar live potting? I was very upset about Joel Edgerton. I get it. It was a loaded category. You can't be surprised. It just hurt my feelings. You just can't be surprised. That was my number one. Were you happy about F1 getting best pick? They put the one popcorn movie in, right? Yeah. So that beat, what, Avatar? I thought weapons would have been the choice because it was a little bit more critically acclaimed, but it made sense to me. Yeah, even if it was sacramental. I'm glad people came around on my side on weapons. Keep it out of the category. I don't think that's what happened. I think people I think I started you think because it wasn't nominated for best picture that everyone decided weapons isn't good Jesse Buckley nominated I think I put Sal here's the thing once I talked about it Hamnet a little bit I think that really helped her nice job good job did you get did you get the check from Focus Features for pushing Hamnet the way that you did I would actually give you back I was one of the first ones that said wow she was really great in that movie I'll give you back a month of my salary if you get Jesse Buckley on your pod I would love her yeah she's amazing she's great she's a great actress great job Mezcal was tough too for supporting what about Mezcal? and Mezcal I call him Mezcal it's like he plays second base for the yeah Luis Mezcal he just signed with the Rangers yeah the Padres right fielder did you see Paul Mezcal a big Red Sox fan? I did is he really actually what? Paul Mezcal's a big Red Sox fan? he's from fucking England he's got a step with the Red Sox he said in an interview so lame what was your number one step? I didn't hear your pod yet What was my number one It was just an accident I mean it was just an accident I think was a movie that people thought was going to go there But I didn't predict that No other choice I never thought it would get it It's tough because it's like predictions versus movies that I liked You know I don't know if there was like a massive Overlook Chase Infinity maybe for one battle after another Was probably the one that most people thought was going to happen Loaded category But also I thought just category fraud She was supporting I mean, Plemons was great in Begonia. Did you watch Begonia? I did. Okay. That's too bad. What'd you think? There's certain movies that just aren't my kind of movie. You're not a Yorgos guy. Me neither. I am 100% not. You're out on Yorgos too. I do not like Yorgos movies. I am in the, I appreciate Yorgos. You guys, you're like horny for each other right now. No, I'm not that. No. I'm funny. is this? We're on three hours and six minutes. Is it because he tends to center women in his films? Is that the issue? I just... No, it's not. No? Okay. It's not. Not my cup of tea. Got it. Not my cup of tea. So when Emma Stone's character in Poor Things kind of realized her agency as a woman... Do you like your ghost movies? I do, yeah. I had them on the big picture for Begonia, which I thought was a cool movie. Not like the best movie of the year, but I thought it was cool. CR? Yeah. Great to see you as always. Great to see you, Sean Fantasy, great to see you as always. Thanks, Bill. You too. Thanks to Gahau. Thanks to Craig. Thanks to Eduardo as well. We will see you next week on The Real Watch.