Israel's Legal Coup is Back in Full Force: Orly & Josh

The problem is not only the horrible issues that are being pushed by the government. It's also about how things are being handled. I'm not even talking politeness, but just willing to hear other people. Knesset committee discussions during which the chair does not let anybody who opposes the government speak. And instead of hearing them, they're being really bullied. It's a nightmare. Just seeing it and just witnessing and obviously being the target of this. We have to decide whether it makes more sense for us to be in the room or outside the room. We feel we need to be there. We feel we need to raise a liberal Jewish voice against this and to actually say that what the government is doing is not only undemocratic, it's not Jewish. Let's go. Welcome to the Pluralist Podcast from both sides of the ocean. I'm Oli Erez Likovsky, director of the Israel Religious Action Center, and I'm joined by Rabbi Josh Weinberg, Vice President for Israel and Reform Zionism at the Union for Reform Judaism, and Director of Artsa. Together we engage thinkers, leaders, educators, activists, and community builders who aren't afraid to wrestle with the tough questions shaping Jewish life today. Israeli society, Zionism, politics, and the unfolding events redefining our moment. Through this podcast, we're deepening the conversations that shape our shared future, what Israelis and diaspora Jews can learn from one another, and what we should rightfully expect of each other, and how difference can strengthen community rather than divide it. From Israel to North America, we explore how shared values can bridge even the widest gaps. So if these conversations matter to you, subscribing really matters to us. It's how this podcast grows and reaches more people. So please subscribe to the Pluralist Podcast on your YouTube page or wherever you're listening to podcasts. Josh, to you. There's a lot going on in the news today, and maybe you were sleeping, or maybe not sleeping, just busy, or not paying attention. We've been busy with work, with family, with grief. We're trying to hold together a sense of normalcy in a world that keeps refusing to cooperate. Now, while you were paying attention to something else, and we all know that there's a ton to pay attention to, Israel's Knesset quietly went back to work on an agenda that should actually sound very familiar to us. We all remember the pre-October 7th world of 2023, the constitutional crisis, the mass protests, the warnings from legal scholars, economists, generals, and civil servants. And then, of course, October 7th happened, and everything quite rightly stopped. The country shattered, the priorities shifted, survival took over. But it didn't stop. Even while Israelis were in survival mode, the coup attempt continued. And now while the country is watching cautiously as President Trump attempts to strong-arm phase two of the ceasefire, while one fallen hostage still remains in captivity, while Israeli society is exhausted and fractured, much of that same agenda is back. Not loudly, not always dramatically, but steadily, but steadily and methodically. Looming over all of this are the growing Haredi protests in the streets and the unresolved fight over the draft bill. Who serves, who is exempt, and what shared obligation really means in a society whose leaders keep it at war? It's a question that cuts to the core of Israeli social cohesion, equality, and mutual responsibility. We're going to devote a full episode to that conversation soon because it deserves more time than a passing headline, but today we want to do a deep dive into the Knesset agenda that's happening and unfolding before our eyes. Orly, help us understand this. Let's start with just an overview of what's happening in the Knesset right now, and then we'll take a deep dive into some of the specific pieces that we see as being the most dangerous and the most threatening. Thanks, Josh. So let's start by saying that a lot is happening in the Knesset these days, and I think this is one of the tactics that the Israeli government is using, doing so many things all at once. So it's very, very hard to keep track on everything. Just to give you an idea of what we have been following and participating in in the last few weeks. First, one of the most dangerous legal coup bills is a bill that aims to weaken the Attorney General, our most important gatekeeper of our democracy next to the Supreme Court. And one bill that is being pushed through the committees now in the Knesset is a bill that tries to take this institution of the Attorney General and break it into a few pieces. So today the Attorney General is both representing the government in courts and also in charge of all criminal proceedings and advising the government on how to actually work and behave according to the law. They actually want to strip the Attorney General from its authority and to make it actually just an advisory person. So the Attorney General can say one thing, the government can decide whatever they want to do, literally putting the government above the law. And so this is really one of the most troubling bills that is being now debated. We have to remind our listeners and viewers that actually this government has been inciting for many, many months against the current attorney general, the brave Galibar of Mi'ara, and actually decided during the last summer to fire her. But the High Court of Justice, the Supreme Court, actually stopped this from happening. Can I just ask you, I feel like it's a little bit of a different system in Israel than in the States. And so just explain a little bit in terms of the role of the attorney general. And does she have binding power over the government to determine whether a piece of legislation is unconstitutional, for instance? Yeah. So today under our system, her opinion is binding. And whatever she tells the government, the government has to follow her instructions. That's, of course, something that the government does not want because she has been over and over again telling the government that they're not working according to the law. Well, because that's what they're doing, right? They're doing a lot of illegal things, whether it's discriminatory or inciting or whatever. They don't like it. So instead of actually behaving according to the law, they want to, you know, fire the gatekeeper and give them just unprecedented power. So in this sense, it is today binding and they want to change it and they want to weaken it dramatically as they try to do the Supreme Court. So they're literally going one component after the other of all the components that are extremely important to any democracy, trying to weaken them in order for the government to have unrestricted power. This is what they wanted to do from day one, and they continue to do it right now. Yeah, and this is coming up right now, you're saying, and what we would call in America sort of the checks and balances on different branches of government are trying to be stripped away and that they realize that they can't actually fire her, according to the Supreme Court, so they want to split or divide up her role. Is that what you're saying? Yeah, exactly. So instead of following the law, they're just changing the law, right? So they want to change the whole institution of what an attorney general is and to weaken her dramatically and to, as I said, give them sort of an open check to do whatever they want without any restriction or any setbacks for them. But that's really one law. Another, I think, important component of any democracy is civil society, right? We're talking about Israel. We have a strong civil society. We saw it during the pro-democracy protests of 2023. We saw it after October 7th. And we're seeing it these days that civil society, Iraq included, is really holding a very important part in Israeli society and in the Israeli democratic system. What they want to do is to target civil society and to target specifically NGOs that are being funded by foreign governments. And what one bill that they're pushing through is saying is that any NGO that is being funded by foreign governments will be taxed at a higher high percent, meaning they would literally won't be able to continue to do what they're doing. Or they have a choice. They can actually commit not to criticizing the Israeli government. and then they would not be taxed, which sounds really, you know, very characteristic of a democratic society. It sounds even Trumpian that I'm going to tax you into submission so that you can't offer critique. And one of my favorite statistics to quote all the time is that Israel has, in fact, the highest percentage or per capita NGOs in the entire world. it's a society of do-gooders who want to start another non-profit organization to come and fix the problems and the government sees this as a big threat yeah and you could ask why do they target only NGOs that are being funded by foreign governments and not foreign individuals well there's a very simple answer to that all the NGOs that are being funded by foreign governments belong to the left wing of the political spectrum OK, because most foreign governments, usually European governments, would actually fund anti-occupation NGOs and others, by the way. So all of the right wing and especially extreme right wing NGOs, they do get a lot of foreign fundings, but from individuals and they would not be funded from foreign governments. So obviously they want to target just one part of the civil society that is not you know giving a disservice to the government and obviously not NGOs that are supporting the government Again very democratic Another thing which is a bill which is actually going to weaken the court system which has really been one of the hallmarks of the judicial coup, is a law that wants to take the rabbinical courts that under our system today have only jurisdiction on matters of marriage and divorce and to actually give them jurisdiction over civil matters. it's supposed to require the litigants to actually agree to be, you know, that the case would be heard before the rabbinical court in civil matters. But, you know, in fact, it's going to be giving them a lot of jurisdictions. For instance, if a person rents an apartment in Tel Aviv, he signs an agreement and he doesn't even see that it has a clause there that says, oh, I agree to the rabbinical court to actually deal with, you know, any conflicts that we're going to have. And obviously it's going to be very dangerous because the rabbinical courts are going to decide according to the Torah, of course, in its orthodox interpretation. Their interpretation, right? Their interpretation. So it means, of course, a big problem for women's rights and for any minority rights. So that's like a huge thing that is being pushed for. Very, very dangerous, again, these days. But this is not the only one. Another, obviously, hallmark of any democracy is a strong media, right? media outlets that actually criticize the government, right? Freedom of expression. They are now trying to push for a series of laws that are going to especially hurt critical media outlets, give the government more control over the media outlets, and actually less regulation for favorable media outlets for the government, favorable of the government. They have also decided on closing Galei Tzahal, which is the IDF radio station, which is sort of, you know, an oxymoron, right? But in our system, it is a very important radio channel, and they want to close it because it's sometimes critical of the government. And of course, they're also working against Haaretz, which is one of the most critical media outlets. They're, you know, boycotting Haaretz and canceling subscription and not allowing to put any government ads in this newspaper. So that's like a whole package of actually trying to crush media. And I know it sounds familiar because a lot of similar things are happening in the states too. Yeah, absolutely. And I think the examples of Galet Sahal or Army Radio and Haaretz would be the equivalent to closing NPR and the New York Times, you know, to an American audience, which is really quite serious. Okay. Anything else on our laundry list that you want to add to it? Because before we do a deep dive into some of the... Yeah, so I want to mention three more. Another thing that would also be very familiar for an American audience is crushing higher education, crushing academic institutions. Now the government is pushing for a bill that is going to give them political control over the council for higher education, meaning they're going to be able to mess with research and is not going to negatively affect the independence and objectivity of academic research. And again, I know you're struggling with the same things, but that's actually a bill that is being debated these days. Another really atrocious bill is a bill to reinstate the death penalty in Israel. It's very different from the States, but in Israel, we don't have a death penalty within the Green Line. I'm not talking about the West Bank, which is under military rule. Or Gaza. But in Israel, and Gaza, in Israel, the death penalty that we inherited from the British mandate was abolished in the 1950s. By the way, the chief rabbinate then supported the abolition of the death penalty, stating it's not a Jewish idea, putting someone to death. And now our dangerous government wants to reinstate it. And they're trying to push a bill which is racist because it's only going to make a mandatory death penalty for Palestinians in the West Bank. That's going to be a mandatory, no discretion to the court. If we're talking about Jewish settlers that are murdering a Palestinian in the West Bank, no death sentence. So obviously, it's not only horrible because in stating death penalty, it's also racist. So that's another very, very troubling bill that is being pushed like, you know, three hearings a week. So they're very determined on actually passing that. We'll go into a bit of greater detail in just a few minutes on that. Yeah. Yeah. And then the final bill that I want to mention, there are many, many more, but the final bill is a bill about commission of inquiry for October 7th and the horrible things that have happened and how come those things have happened. It's clear that there was a huge failure on so many fronts. Instead of actually having a state commission of inquiry headed by a Supreme Court judge with a lot of objective representatives. They're now trying to push for a law that will actually make them, the government, nominate people who are going to investigate themselves. Obviously, it doesn't make any sense, and that's also a very dangerous bill that is being pushed these days. Well, Orly, this laundry list of the different legislation that's being pushed through the Knesset is a little bit frightening, I want to say. And it feels like they, you know, whoever it is, you know, the various members of the coalition supported by Netanyahu sort of read like a how to build a fascist regime for dummies, you know, taking off the shelf. And they're following step by step of how to do all those things. And, you know, as a Zionist, one of the things that I treasure and cherish about the state of Israel is this open, free society, you know, in terms of media, arts, culture, academia, you know, checks and balances on government. And so what you're saying to us is that after two years of war, now these things are, you know, sort of in the back, you know, behind the scenes, let's say. These aren't the main headlines are being dismantled. Now, Orly, you were in the Knesset this week, actually, going from different committee hearing to committee hearing and discussions in the committees. And paint us a little bit of the picture of what you saw and you heard. And I want to focus on some of these really threatening and dangerous proposals that have come up, if you would. Yeah, so I think the problem is not only the horrible issues that are being pushed by the government, which we just discussed, but it's also about how things are being handled. Okay, we are, I think, in both countries, both in Israel and the U.S., we see that every basic norm is being, you know, shoved away, right? Anybody can do anything and can say whatever they want. And there is no respect for any decency or any, I'm not even talking politeness, but just willing to hear other people. And over and over again, we see Knesset committee discussions during which the chair does not let anybody who opposes the government speak. Or if he's allowed to speak, he's being screamed upon. And if he's trying to oppose, he's being threatened and actually said you have to just, you know, expelled from the room. We're seeing this especially around public servants, especially representatives of the attorney general and the Ministry of Justice. who are trying to oppose those dangerous bills and to say, listen, it's not according to the law. It's not according to the basic values of a Jewish and democratic state. And instead of hearing them, they're like, oh, we don't want to hear you. We don't want to hear you at all. Or they're being really bullied. It's like a bulliness of over and over again of people who are public servants. OK, they were not chosen politically for a political job. They're doing the work. We're seeing it especially in the Constitution Justice and Law Committee by Simcha Rotman, who is one of the architects of the judicial coup. And every time he is just, you know, screaming just yesterday, it was, you know, it's just a nightmare seeing how he actually behaves in the committee room and how he treats other people. It's a nightmare just seeing it and just being witnessed, just witnessing and obviously being the target of this. We're also seeing that legal advisors of the committees often try to oppose and try to present their views. And they're also being bullied by the committee. Just a few weeks ago, the legal advisor to the finance committee was being screamed upon by the chair, Hanukh Milivetsky from the Likud. He later was ordered to apologize because it was unbelievable. He told her, OK, you can say whatever you want. We're not going to do anyway what you're suggesting and does not let her speak. So it's this bullying and the feeling that you're witnessing, as I said, like a nightmare. It's not even like a discussion where everybody's saying their opinion, and then there's sort of, you know, a decision which side to go. It's just they're running very rapidly, pushing quickly for those dangerous bills, not willing to hear anybody saying otherwise. And if somebody tries to oppose, includes members of the opposition, of course, members of the opposition, they're being screamed upon. And it's a very hard environment, very difficult environment. And we are spending, you know, dozens of hours on those Knesset committee hearings. And it's not easy because we have to decide whether it makes more sense for us to be in the room or outside the room. Do we want to be a part of it? We feel we need to be there We feel we need to raise a liberal Jewish voice against this and to actually say that what the government is doing is not only undemocratic it not Jewish okay But we also don't want to be sort of an audience to this terrible, terrible show that we're seeing. Yeah, I totally hear the dilemma of being inside and outside. Fortunately for the rest of us, I'm glad that you are on the inside, able to, you know, share the account. And I love what you said about this not being a Jewish way to act or to behave. I'm reminded, of course, of the story in the Talmud where Hillel and Shammai are arguing, and of course the halakha, the ruling, goes according to Hillel, specifically because, precisely because he entertains the arguments of Shammai first. And you're saying that people like Simcha Rotman, who himself is kind of a bookish introvert, I would call him a law nerd. He's written two books on this stuff and him totally losing control. And the way you described it to me, he was like having a tantrum in the Knesset hearing. And they've lost all sorts of discourse and thrown Robert's rules out the window here. Okay, so that's the scene of the Knesset. Let's go into a few of the really problematic bills. And I want, if you're okay to do this, I'd love to tackle the issue of the death penalty for terrorists. Now, Itamar Bengvir, who's really pushing this with like sort of like a tunnel vision, almost, you know, like singular focus on this issue, is not a stranger to any of us, right? We've known him and followed him for a long time. And Iraq has, you know, files upon files of his rhetoric and behavior. And I remember distinctly in his election campaign, he made a deliberate switch from saying death to Arabs to saying death to terrorists. Right. Now, it's subtle, but deliberate. And he knows the law very well. So explain to us what this bill would do and why it's so problematic. and even the fact of, you know, what was the insignia on Ben-Gvir's lapel as he's been wearing, you know, the past few days in terms of how this death penalty will play out and why? Yeah, so first of all, we should remind our listeners or viewers that Irak has demanded the disqualification of Ben-Gvir on the account of his incitement to racism in 2019. We asked him to not be allowed to run for the Knesset. The Supreme Court, while disqualifying three of his colleagues, decided that while coming very close to the red line, he did not cross the threshold. And that's why he was not disqualified. Back then, we thought it's a mistake. We now see how, what an unbelievable mistake this was because he has really caused the Israeli discourse to become so racist and so extremist and so full of hatred that it's quite unbelievable. It's true that, as you say, he's more cautious than his friends. It's clear though that he's, you know, a complete racist and obviously the damages that he does to, that he inflicts upon our democracy are incredible. What they are trying to do in this bill is to have courts decide on mandatory death penalty to Palestinian terrorists in the West Bank without any discretion. Today, even in the military courts in the West Bank, they have discretion. They would not have any discretion. When we're talking about within Israel, within the Green Line, there will be discretion, but there will be a possibility. And as I said, Jewish settlers in the West Bank would not be subject to a death penalty at all. Even if they are deemed terrorists, you're saying, right? Yeah, yes. Now, what we are saying is, first of all, you know, a lot of, you know, the heads of security services are saying it does not create deterrence. Of course, when we're talking about, you know, suicide bombers, obviously it does not deter them, but in general it does not, you know, does not deter terrorists. and we think aside the fact that it's racist as I said, the whole notion itself of actually a death penalty is something that is not acceptable in most Western democracies and it's important for us to tell the Israeli people and people worldwide that this notion goes against the Jewish values against the value of sanctity of life against what the Bible and Rabbi Tarfon has said that we should not support the death penalty, not only because there could be a death penalty of a person who actually is innocent, but in general because of the sanctity of life. So we know that the Jewish sources are against this, and we think that the fact that the Jewish and democratic states wants to now, in the year 2026, reinstate it, after so many years that we did not have a death penalty, is something that is unbearable. and just watching the hearings of the committee saying, oh, let's think of how to actually execute people. They decided actually to do it by hanging people in the middle of a square just before men, women, and children. It's, yeah, it does not make... Are we Iran or the Taliban in Afghanistan that's actually doing that? Exactly. This is deeply chilling, and I want you to share, actually, what the discussion was specifically in the Knesset. In a second, we talk about Jewish values, of course. You know, there are cases of death penalty in the Torah and in the Bible, in the Tanakh. And the rabbis went to great lengths to find legal loopholes to avoid such things and saying essentially that human people cannot play God and only God can play God in order to, you know, make the decision to take a human life. I just want to pick up on a thread, you know, something that you said that if we can agree that this does not succeed in deterrence, right, in deterring a terrorist from committing an act of terrorism. So what then is Ben Gvir's goal, do you think? What is he trying to achieve by, you know, carrying out this law and enacting it? You know, he's, Ben Gvir is like a clown who wants attention, okay? He wants to show his voters that he's a tough guy. I know it may remind you of someone. And he's, you know, it's just for a show, okay? It's clear that as a national security minister, his, you know, the result of his actions is just so bad. All of the data shows like a steep increase in crime rate, especially in Arab villages and towns. But in general, women who have been murdered by their husbands, all of the, you know, security situation in Israel is terrible. So he has been a terrible minister, like objectively, and he doesn't care because he cares about, you know, what the media is going to write about him and, of course, whether he's going to be reelected. And unfortunately, while we see in polls that the good news is that the government does not receive in any polls since October 7th a majority, and we know that most Israelis do not identify with those extremist ideas of Ben-Gvir and Smotrich, he still gets in the polls, you know, eight, nine mandates of people voting for him. So it seems that, unfortunately, there is a sizable group in Israeli society that is being impressed by this unbelievable and dangerous, you know, show that he's giving around this law and around other laws. for us. We're not willing to accept this, and we are definitely fighting back and raising the voice of so many Israelis and so many liberal Jews around the world that are not going to sit back and just see this unbelievable sins unfolding before our eyes and just let them go by. So you said that this bill is moving very fast and very swiftly through the Knesset and through the various stages of how a bill becomes a law, essentially. So two questions on that. One, if this does pass all of the various hearings, is there a chance that the Supreme Court will deem it unconstitutional and strike it down? And then second, take us a little bit to the discussion that seems quasi-Talmudic here that they were having about various terrorists and the question of punishment this week in the Knesset. Yes, so there is a possibility that should this law pass, the Supreme Court will strike it down, especially around the, obviously, discrimination between Jewish and Palestinian terrorists, because this is obviously unconstitutional. But, you know, I mean, that's part of the strategy of this government. They pass unbelievable laws. And then if the court strikes them down, they win twice, right? First, they pass the law, which is good for their base. And second, if the court strikes it down, they can incite against the court about, oh, the court is being too active and continue spreading hatred toward the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court chief justice. So, but that definitely could happen. Yeah. They just blame that pesky Supreme Court for you know not letting them advance their agenda right Of course and they have actually said in recent I think this week or last week that they have actually passed or wanted to pass a government resolution saying we're not going to abide by some court resolutions because, you know, we don't care. Like we're going to pick and choose whether we're going to respect those decisions or not. Now, I think it's really the discussion is sometimes so unbearable that this week they actually discussed whether it's okay to force a court to execute someone without giving them discretion. And one of the examples was, well, what if the Palestinian terrorist is a woman and she's pregnant? Do we execute her or we wait for her to give birth? I mean, can you imagine just having this discussion at the parliament of the Jewish and democratic state of Israel? It's just, I'm, you know, just, I can't grasp this, right? I mean, it is shocking. for the things that are being debated. It is shocking. And just when you think you've heard it all and you can't be shocked anymore or surprised, then something like this comes up and you're saying to yourself, oh my God, just tell it. You as an Israeli, you've lived almost all of your life in Israel and you raise your kids and your family there and you're a proud Israeli and a Zionist. How are you looking at this moment right now? And what should we, those of us, those of our listeners who are not in Israel right now, how should they understand this? Is this just us being critical or is this something deeper here that's happening? I think we're in a very, very low point of Israel. During the protests to call for the release of the hostages, I wore a shirt saying, Kulanu chatofim, we are all hostages. And I think this is the feeling of all liberal Israelis. and a lot of liberal Jews outside of Israel feeling that we have been kidnapped by a group of extremist, incompetent, crazy people who are trying to promote all the values that are completely in contrast to what we believe in. I do want to say some good things and some hopeful things, okay, because I really think that not all is lost. I think that there are a lot of deep currents that we have to attend to. I'm not saying, you know, that everything is easy, but I think it sort of crystallizes to many, many Israelis what's at stake and how important it is to present an alternative. And I think we as the Reform Movement and the Israel Justice Action Center, what we're doing is actually telling Israelis this is not democracy and this is not Judaism. And I think a lot of Israelis are looking for something else, for a different Jewish voice to present an alternative to this craziness that we're seeing in order for us to be able, first of all, to imagine a different future and then to bring it about. So I think there are a lot of people on our side. And as I said, many, many, many Israels are being appalled by what's going on. I think it's important to tell people what's actually going on in the halls of the Knesset, both Israelis and outside of Israel. and that's why we're talking about it. Yeah, I was going to ask. Because first of all, people have to be aware, aware that this is happening in order for them to understand how so much is at stake now. Maybe we should re-record this discussion in Hebrew also for the Israeli audience to make sure that everyone is aware. But how much do you think the average Israeli is aware of, you know, even the headlines of what you're saying right now? So I must say that yesterday was, you know, such a difficult day that it did make headlines. We did mention that in another discussion yesterday in a discussion of the health committee, which is being chaired by another person from the racist Jewish Strength Party. It was a discussion about Israel leaving the World Health Organization, which I know also sounds familiar for American listeners. And, you know, very senior doctors who used to work, you know, in the health ministry actually came and said, this is insane. You should not be doing this. And instead of hearing them, they were being, you know, forcefully being, you know, expelled from the room and just seeing the videos of actually a very senior doctor being forced out of his chair and thrown out of the committee room, it made headlines. So even in the crazy reality that we're living in, like yesterday was a crazy day and people understood, okay, this is not something that should happen. And people were talking about it. So I think more people know, I'm not sure enough people know and understand how dangerous what the government is doing, but I think a lot of people do. I think we will speak about it in our next episode. You mentioned about the issue of the Haredim and the exemption from army service. This is like a huge issue for many, many Israelis, including people who support the government, who are not willing to accept this anymore. So we see there's sort of issues that divide Israeli society differently than the political divisions, and that this government faces a lot of challenges. The same goes for the State Commission of Inquiry. There is a huge majority of Israelis' opposition supporters and coalition supporters who are in favor of a State Commission of Inquiry, so that's another huge thing for the government to tackle with. So they have some troubles. Can we say another word about that? Of course, we know that after every major incident, like, for instance, thinking about 52 years ago 53 years ago almost the failure to prepare for the surprise attack that became the Yom Kippur War led to a major state inquiry after the Lebanon War Sabran Chetila, another massive state inquiry I actually had the opportunity to ask Knesset Speaker Amir Ohana a few weeks ago face to face and I said to him, just explain to us because it looks really bad. Just explain to us why you are so reticent to have an official state inquiry. And he said, well, do you even know who appoints the members of that committee? And I said, well, I'm pretty sure it's the Supreme Court justices who appoint the members. He goes, yes, absolutely. And frankly, we don't trust them because we think that they are going to act politically and not with the best interests of the state. And I said, well, first of all, thank you for your honesty and being upfront about it, at the very least. But, you know, that's sort of an absurd thing to say, is that we're refusing to let this inquiry happen because we don't trust the, you know, the members of the Supreme Court, not of, you know, and they're fairly religiously and politically diverse, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, I think, Obviously, it shows that, you know, it's very characteristic of this government that since October 7th, they have done anything but take responsibility for the failure and just blaming the whole world other than themselves. So I think that, you know, goes along the same lines. I do want to say that, as you said, that, you know, our government is following the autocrats playbook, right? very clearly all the stages. And sort of the last stage, that's what Professor Kim Lane Sheppeli, who researches sort of authoritarianism, said the last step before turning into a completely authoritarian regime is actually abolishing elections, right? And we're going to have actually elections in both countries this year, the American midterms and our elections, which are scheduled for the end of October. and we are now following very carefully because one of our concerns is to make sure that the elections are going to be free and fair. I have to say that we didn't used to have issues of suppression of voting in Israel in contrast to the states, but it seems that these elections are going to be different. We're sure they're going to be brutal, going to be a lot of incitement, a lot of use of different tactics to actually prevent especially opposition voters from going to the ballots. And so we are following this very closely, and that's a very critical step in looking forward to the future of the state of Israel. I do believe that what the government has done is reversible, and we have to make sure that we will be able to reverse and actually bring Israel back to its course, to being a Jewish and democratic country that truly believes in equality and dignity for all people who were created in the image of God. Well, on that hopeful note, and we will stay tuned and hear much more about the coming Israeli elections this year and the American elections, of course. We'll be doing further deep dives into that and to many other issues. Orly, always a pleasure to be with you and thank you for everything you're doing and for being there on behalf of all of us around the world in North America and from the reform movement. We need to do everything we can to support you in that work. And here I think we need to do everything we can to make sure that we are aware and that we're understanding and that our criticism is not criticism of Israel per se. It is criticism of these really dangerous laws and the erosion of checks and balances and the fabric of democracy here in the state. Thank you so much. Thanks, Josh. And thank you, everyone, for being with us. And we look forward to having you with us in the next episodes. Bye bye. And we'll say a special thank you to Noam Zuckerman, our producer, and I look forward to continuing the conversation. Bye-bye.