The Way to College Podcast - Ep 181 - Caroline Graham

th Hi, this is Dr. Cecil Leverth with another episode, The Way to College podcast. And as I've said in the past, the podcast has been a blessing. It's been a great opportunity to share the stories of folks in my network, folks beyond my network, because I don't think we do. We do a good enough job of sharing our stories. I think, you know, I created the podcast with a specific audience in mind, high school students, college students, so that they could see that not everybody has it figured out and that not having everything figured out is actually more normal than having everything figured out. But like young people were under a lot of stress and are experiencing a lot of stress to have life figured out. And I wanted to show them that through these stories that that's not true. But I also wanted to show them that everybody's path is different and that even folks doing the same type of work got their traveling different paths. Today today's another wonderful guest. And this is somebody that I met while I was in college. I met them, I think they were a freshman, and I was a senior, I think. And but when we met, and I, you know, I can't speak for her. But when we met, like, there was just this really great, I got a really great vibe from her, had I think really great conversation. And so, you know, we immediate friends. And so, you know, we've remained friends over social media. And so I've followed her journey, but I'm eager to jump in and and really get at at her journey and where it began and where she's been and where she's going. So Caroline, would you mind introducing yourself to our listeners out there? Yeah. So my name is Caroline. And I am from the Seattle area and went to school with Jay at Stanford and started off my career in education. And now I work at Boeing as an instructional systems designer. I'm in my 40s. I kind of lost track after 40. I have a son. I have a husband. We're middle school sweethearts. And and yeah. Yeah. Very grateful for a lot of a lot of good things. Wow. So I'm excited. I because I because I, you know, I remember us having like conversations about what you were majoring in. You told me about your family and things. And and so I'm eager to really jump into your story. But Caroline, as with all of my guests, I always ask if your journey, if your educational journey had a starting point, where would that starting point be? You know, I think my educational starting point was probably when I was about five years old and we dropped my sister off at Stanford. So she was 17 or older than I was. And I just remember the palm trees, you know, especially growing up in Seattle, Washington, we didn't have palm trees. And I was just like fun and sexy. And I was like, I'm going to come here. I'm going to come here and be here. And this is amazing. And then also my my my sister was one of the first in the big family to go to college. I mean, my dad went to college, but I think on my mom's side of my family, she was one of the first and and also to go to a place like Stanford. And just the whole family was so proud of her. And we had some family in California. They all came to drop her off. And I just it was so clear how how proud everyone was of her when an accomplishment it was. So I just wanted I just looked up to her and wanted to be that. That's just what I wanted to be. And I knew, you know, I knew even at that young age, it was like an accomplishment and you had to have like good grades and you had to take the hard classes. And so I just think I always had that in the back of my head. Yeah, take the hard classes and do well and, you know, try to get straight A's if you can. And and and then this opportunity might be possible. Yeah. So I would say, yeah, that was a really powerful start. So yeah, I would say five. Yeah, five. Yeah. So just to be clear, Caroline, I'm going to go in the record and say you're the first person to say that describes dad for that sexy. But I get I get. Yeah. I remember. So I, you know, I remember my own when I my parents dropped me off. I didn't go. I didn't go to admit weekend or whatever. So I it was the first time I saw a campus was when I was getting dropped off. And I think what I love the palm trees, of course, I'm from Texas. They're palm trees. But I think what really stood out to me was it's I don't know. It's September, right? Folks are getting on campus and everybody was outside. Yeah. People were running. People were playing soccer. T-shirts. Yeah. You know, laid out laying out, laying out. Everybody was outside. And I it just seemed. I don't know that sexy was a word for me, but I was just I was just really impressed. But also kind of like I was like, oh, man, everybody looks so fit. I really need to step up. But I love that story. I love that story about your sister. I remember you talking us having conversations about your sister and and the impression she she left on you. Early on, I apologize if you hear a dog that's my dog, Fred, Fred's an old dog and he's he gets annoyed very easily. But. You know, early on, we're always asked. Like, what do you what do you want to be when you grow up? And so when you were a kid, do you remember anybody asking you that? And what is it that you wanted to be? Yeah, I wanted to be a ballet dancer. Yeah. I wanted to be a ballerina hardcore. Yeah, I remember. My mother and I would sometimes go to the Pacific Northwest Ballet. And I even remember the ballerina, the principal dancer, Patricia Barker, what's her name? And I even got like a pair of her toeshoes and I was just. Yeah, I was just going to be a ballerina. And I remember one time the Pacific Northwest Ballet came to our school and a teacher and everyone knew I danced like I danced in all the talent shows. I danced if I had to do a book report. I it was a dancing book report. Like everyone knew I can dance. And so when my teacher said, is that going to be you one day? And I was like, yeah, like I thought we weren't even over this. And this canard like, yeah, I, yes. Right. But, you know, at some point, I think I think I learned it early. And I think it happened with Ray Lowe's fanfare. I was like, I am not, I do not have the body of a ballerina. That's just not going to be, that's not me. And I just ruled myself out, like probably within a year or two of that happening. I just was like, yeah, it was very clear to me, you know, which is. Tragic and very sad looking back on it, but I was just very. Those kind of things can become very clearly communicated to kids at a young time, you know. But I still wanted, I think, be a dancer or then I think at that, at some point, I wanted to be an actress. I want to be on Oprah Winfrey. I wanted to be Julia Roberts. Well, that's where I saw women who were talented and admired. And that's what I wanted to be. I remember, you know, my dad was an engineer. My dad worked for Boeing. And there were women engineers he worked with. And I, but I, I mean, there were a couple, right? There were one or two, but I just didn't identify with them for any reason. It just seemed very odd to me, you know. So I definitely saw myself in, I guess, yeah, in actresses on TV. That's what I saw women do. Or, you know, and, and then, you know, for my mom, education was always really important for us. She wanted us to do well. I knew they were really proud of my sister, Glena Stanford. But my mom would also tell me education is really important so that you can always stand on your own two feet. So it was very much, it wasn't to have a career. It wasn't to change the world. It was like your backup plan. It was your safety net. And, and that's incredibly important, actually. You know, sadly, I've been in abusive relationship. I've had close friends in abusive relationships, education and just knowing that I was able to earn income, but I wasn't earning income. And family and friends, community got me out of those situations and have gotten lots of women out of those situations. But there's also, it also can be more than that. So I wasn't really ever too concerned about my career. I knew I wanted to go to Stanford. I knew I wanted to get a good education. And then I figured I would get married and be a mom and then figure it out. And my sister, you know, I talked about my sister, she was a lot older than me. And she got her PhD, but she was always very much a mom. I think she really tried hard to balance her career as a scholar and being a mom. And it's, it's tough. It's tough. She's since divorced. And I think, you know, not to go far too down that path, but it can be very tough for a number of reasons to try to balance motherhood and career. And I think for a long time, she really had to sideline her career. And so I think, so I kind of figured my career also would be kind of sidelined and I figured out at some point. But yeah, definitely didn't have any long term kind of career goals in my head for a long time until I was approaching my senior year at Stanford. Well, to back up a little bit, I thought, well, I'll be a doctor. Right. I knew at some point, I think in high school, I was like, OK, I'm good at school. I probably have a future. I probably, you know, I'm getting ready to go to college. I should probably use that for something like there was just momentum. Yeah. And I said, well, I want to make a difference. It was really important to me to make a difference in the world. And I remember my mom, well, she didn't we didn't think of her as having a career, but she actually did have a career, but she didn't see it as a career. And therefore we didn't see it as a career. She was a Spanish interpreter for the health department growing up and she did that for several years. But we all thought it was just her speaking Spanish, right? Like if that wasn't that's not a way. That's just what you do. That's like, but no, I mean, she was a medical interpreter and she served people and she had an amazing skill set and she connected to people. And she worked at it, right? Like medical interpreting is like there's a lot of vocab and you have to keep up on it. And she was just she was just so committed to serving people. And she ended up getting this Martin Luther King Junior Award from the county for for just for her service to her community. And that was just always a given, I think, that our work would be meaningful and seek to help others. And so I thought, OK, I'll be a doctor. I think I could make that happen. And then but I had doctors in the family, my sister's husband was a doctor, my cousin was a doctor. They don't be a doctor. I'm like, OK, you say so. But then I was like, OK, what else am I going to work for like a company and like help them make money? So meaningful. So Stanford has this amazing school of education. A good friend, Nathie Rodriguez, was a year ahead of me and had gone to the school to become a teacher. And it just seemed like an amazing program. And their slogan was teach to change the world. And I'm like that. That's sign me up. That's what I want to do. And then I took like a like a pre-rec class and they had to go out into into local school and observe. And I just thought it was amazing. And I was like, this is fascinating. Like every just so many factors to consider. You know, pure dynamics or relationships to the teacher or you know what identities that you bring in or societal patterns at play and how do they show up in the classroom? Just it was just fascinating. And and I was just hooked. I just really loved the energy of the classroom. And and it was just such meaningful work to help to just help young people find their way or to help them understand something. Just it's completely fundamentally like fundamental to being human. And and fun. Yeah. So so so it was yeah, I think that was my junior year. And and I was and I thought, yeah, I really like the Stanford School of Education. I really love this idea of becoming a teacher to change the world. Sign me up. That's that's where I'll go from here. And and and then I also was like in the summer. I can act. So you know, or I can write poetry and on the weekends go perform performance poetry in San Francisco. So it and and I felt like it was a career that would allow me to take time off to be a mom because I still felt like. Yeah, I'm going to be a mom. Right. Yeah. But some point. Let's give in. So I want to and I couldn't see. Yeah. Can I say I'm going to stop you really quick. I'm so sorry. No, no, don't apologize. No, it's your story. Don't apologize for you. But I'm I'm fast. A couple of a number of things have just kind of popped up and I wanted to before they got away from me. Well, one is I think except for dance, right, because you said in dance you. Realized or those messages were conveyed to you right early that you didn't necessarily have a dancer's body. So maybe you weren't going to be the ballerina. But yet you remain confident in that you were going to go to a good school. You were going to go to Stanford and know if you know this. But kids all over the country want to go to Stanford and very few get in. Right. So just that confidence that I'm going to go to Stanford and I'm going to take hard classes. I'm not challenging myself. And then I think what has really stood out to me in all of this and this story in your story, excuse me. Is this confidence that I can do everything. That I don't have to choose one thing. I can be the teacher. I can make the difference. I can write poetry. I can still dance and I'm still going to perform. And I've got to know where does that confidence come from. Because because you know working with young people and you've worked with young people. They're not always the most confident. Where did that confidence come from? Do you think? Well, you know, it's interesting. I mean, I don't necessarily feel like a very confident person. I don't know why I wouldn't think of myself as confident. I guess I felt like I used to think I was confident. Maybe that was when maybe that was Hollywood. Maybe that was me going to Hollywood. I'm trying to I'm getting the agent and trying to be an actress in my 20s and maybe with Hollywood. I ripped my confidence away from me. But but no, I think but to hear what you're saying and to take a moment and own that and be like, yeah, you know, I I still yeah, it takes determination to set a goal to go to Stanford and then to pursue it and then to you know, I didn't have the I feel like I didn't have the best grade point average at Stanford. I remember I applied to the Mellon Fellowship. Um, so because I was going to be like my sister and get a PhD and I applied for this Mellon Fellowship to so I think it helped pay for a PhD program and I didn't get it. And I really felt it was my my grades or just me. I so I I kind of was like, you know, okay, I'll try something else. I'll try to the School of Ed and so thinking on on what you said, I'm thinking, know that it takes that's great. Like if I were to step aside and talk to myself and be my own little coach, be like, hey, like you regrouped and you had a new plan and you kept going and still found your passion and joy and meaning and and you kept going like you know. Um, so yeah, okay, where did that come from? You know, I think I mean, I think fundamentally, I think it was just a lot of love from my parents. I think there's this thing I guess I said when I was a kid where my mom would ask me, why do I love you so much? And at some point I said, because I'm cute, talented and born to be loved. Yeah, I think I yeah, I think love and just acceptance and support and from your parents, I think can be really, really, really powerful. And then my dad also, I think. He was supportive of me and really, I think if I like, I remember one night I was struggling with my math homework and it was like sixth grade and very formative years, right? And I was struggling with math homework and I was in my room with my book open and I just didn't, um, I was I was struggling, I didn't get it. And I felt like I like I'm done, you know, like I'm not getting it. And I remember my dad came on to my dad came up to say good night and he was going to go to bed and he could see I was upset and I remember saying dad, I have a test tomorrow, I don't get it. And I think I was crying because I just felt it was hopeless, you know, and he said, Caroline, you know, that's why we're here. You can come to us and we'll help you understand. Like it's not that you're done. Like you come and we'll help you understand. And and I think that message was was really important to this idea of, you know, you can do it. And sometimes it just takes help and and that's what we're here for. And so I think, yeah, just that constant positive love and support was probably really, really powerful. And then not always being tied to outcomes. Like I remember one time I entered this like spelling bee and I didn't, I, I remember I didn't make it. Like I didn't make I didn't win the spelling bee, you know. And my mom came to see me and and she had a little book for me afterwards. Like so I, I spelled the word wrong. I was on the stage, I spelled the word wrong, and then I had to leave the stage. And then I went to find my mom, you know, and I remember being like, you know, she's like, I didn't win the spelling bee, you know, kind of sad. And she had already gotten me the book. And I remember thinking, oh, like winner or lose, you know, she is really, she's proud of me, you know, so I think. Yeah, I think it's that's probably also really important and just that support and, and, you know, possible celebration of mistakes or celebration of failures is, is important and helpful. But yeah, yeah. You know, throughout throughout your journey, you, like you talked about not getting the melon fellowship. And I'm familiar with the melon, by the way, I did not get the melon item. And, and, and of course I, I allowed it to live in my head for a little bit, like why, right? You need to deal with that. But it sounds like regardless of, you know, set, if you experience a setback, right? If you experienced failure, right? And you have these early examples or experiences where mom's going to give you unconditional love and your parents are going to give you unconditional love, regardless. Right. Did that make it easier later on as you got older and, and dealing with what setbacks and failure was? And I think, okay, the question that I want to ask is, did it keep you from trying new things, like the fear of failing something? Yeah. Did that keep you from trying new things? You know, maybe sometimes. But I would say rarely in that, I think, I really, yeah, I don't think so. I think I really have been ready to fail. Yeah. You know, that being said, it's, I remember, so I, I do sometimes like trying to do things that I'm good at, you know, so. Of course. I remember I, you know, I love dancing and I took this break dancing class, I think, I think it was in San Francisco, but I'm pretty sure it was the Bay Area somewhere. And I sucked. It was, because they were doing a lot of these like arm tricks, you know, and that's, I don't know what that, I thought I was going to be better. I thought I was going to be better, but it was, I remember just looking in the mirror and I just looked like an idiot. It was pitiful. I'm like, I am not doing that again. I liked, I liked to go and try things and be, you know, able to kind of hang, you know, just not like anything like that. So, so there are, I think there are some things like, like there are some levels of humiliation I don't want to subject myself to. And I do like setting myself up for success, but, you know, I almost think that that, that teaching actually, I think, helped me address that fear of failure. Because I think becoming a teacher and realizing, really committing to people and their, and their potential to do anything and really then studying the human mind and the human experience and realizing just, we're amazing. Like our brains are malleable and are capable of learning whatever. And then, and then everyone's brain is a little bit different. And so it's just a matter of, okay, if you really want to do something, then we just got to set up a program for you to get there. And, and so, yeah, I think before studying education, before going into grad school and starting education, I remember being an undergrad at Stanford and thinking if something was hard, it's because I, I had a deficit. Like freshman year, I went, I signed up for the hardest science classes. I signed up for Chem 33 and it kicked my butt, you know. And I did the math 50 series and that kicked my butt or no, I did math 51 and that kicked my butt and that was enough. And I remember feeling the eye, I was lacking. And in retrospect, I think just some gaps, there were just some gaps that I needed to fill that there was some gaps between what I, the knowledge I came in with, the skills I came in with and where the class was at. Equally, I think big lecture classes didn't really work that well for me. Guess what? They don't work well for a lot of people, you know. And I think that's something that being a teacher helped me understand. And so I apply that to myself and it's like, hey, like a couple years ago when I was trying to get a job, like a nine to five job that had good insurance was going to pay the bills. It took me a year and I had a lot of rejection and it was like, you just, you got to play the numbers and you're capable and it maybe it's your cover letter and try a different tech and try something different and prepare for the interview and force yourself to do mock interviews. And just, it was just a matter of, I just, I think if I keep at it and try different tax, it's going to lead to success. And so I think, I think being a teacher helped, helped get me there. And then also being a mom too recently, like my son is just so willing to fail unabashedly, you know, like even at the risk of his own life, you know. And it's amazing, you know, and then they do, they learn, they learn with just, they don't fear failure and that's the way to do it, to learn and to grow. I think the biggest, it brings up my, my time in LA pursuing acting. Your question brings that up for me because I was very nervous about going to LA and pursuing acting, but it was my dream. I knew it was my dream and I really felt like, I think it's a value of mine almost to, to try even with those you're afraid, like and to not regret not trying. And I'm not quite sure where, where that came as a value if it was like a Disney movie or something. I don't know, but, but I, I, I went to LA and I got an agent and I was in audition rooms and sometimes, you know, it really played on different insecurities, all sorts of different insecurities. And I remember going to this workshop and it was a workshop for Stanford alums and I want to say, it was a casting director and I want to say he might have been a Stanford alum too. And I was like eight to do my little monologue thing and he was, and everyone was really good. And I did my thing and he's like, I feel like you're acting too much. I don't like, I don't like acting. He's like, yeah, you just, you need to be more natural. Oh, I'm horrible. I'm a horrible actress. And, and yeah, I, I didn't, like if we had had a follow up workshop, I probably wouldn't have gone. Or like it just would have been like, I would have been like, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know. I just wouldn't have gone or like it just would have been like a little bit nauseous like getting ready to go up again and feel like wait a minute. Now wait, now we've got a stop because yeah, you know, before, before I interjected the last time the last time I interjected stopped you. You were doing the, I think it's the step program. Right. The students a step right the teaching program. Yeah. And then you kind of moved us along to acting going to LA. Did you follow through in the teaching And then what was it that led you, you know, post Stanford was was LA post Stanford? Was that right after you graduated? Yeah, so I had my got my bachelor's in comparative studies and race and ethnicity and focused on literature, the arts. And then right after that, just a month later, I enrolled in the master's program and education. And then right after that, it was with a teaching credential to teach high school. So right after that, I taught high school at East Palo Alto Academy for three years, like freshman and sophomores. And then I really wanted to to act. I wanted to still give that a chance. Also, there was, you know, I think, you know, your professional life or your working life and your personal life, you know, they like this, right? So also at the time, I was in a serious relationship that I didn't want to stay in. And it was hard. It was hard leaving that relationship as it can be, you know, breakups are rough, right? So my sister offered to let me move in with her just to kind of provide that support through a breakup. So I did teaching at the time was very stressful. I think, you know, in East Palo Alto, I think the community is itself, I think, I know a lot of stress. There was like sometimes there were lockdowns. And like one of my students, his dad was dying of cancer and they didn't have insurance and he was that's rough. It was really rough. There was just a lot of pain and a lot of needs. And I think it that it was just it can be stressful or you can reach capacity trying to serve a lot of folks's needs when you're in that role of serving. I think any service role can be taxing when you don't kind of have some support to take care of yourself. And in your 20s, you don't at least I did it. You know, I was living in an apartment was in a relationship. I wasn't too sure about it. It was a struggle. I was not doing well. Not so new teacher. It was rough. So my sister offered to let me live with her. So I did and then I was able to end my relationship. Work was still stressful. But then the deal with my sister was stressful. As I mentioned, she later got a divorce. You know, anytime you end up with a divorce, you back up several years. It's it's rough. You know. So living in that house was was tough. So then I ended up in another relationship to kind of maybe get out of the house. And then I moved I jumped into that relationship a little too soon. And it was a little too too good to be true that that relationship said, oh, let's go be artists together and I'll support you. I'm like, OK, great. I'm going to leave teaching for a little bit and go to San Francisco and try to make a living working in theater. And but so when I did that, when I kind of shacked up with this dude, turns out he wasn't going to support me. So there was no money. So I had to figure out how to make money quick. I didn't want to go back and live with my sister. So luckily there was a last minute opening at Kaiser Permanente, their educational theater programs. I had a decision for them earlier and didn't make it. But then they called me and said, we have a last minute. We had a cast member last minute drop out. Can you come and that's been a nice, solid salary. I think at the time it was like 40 K. And that was enough. That was enough to pay the bills. And then it was awesome. I got to serve people and act. Yeah, so it was amazing. But that relationship turned very sour very quickly. And I managed to leave. It took a village. It took my sister. It took my friends from college. It took my work saying, hey, you're coming to school crying. Take a day off. Here's a counselor, like the counselor that was serving the kids. How many months I was like met with me. So made it to the end of the school year. Oh, well, actually. Anyway, I made it to the end of the year and then I was like, I managed to get out of the relationship. And then I was like, I got to get out of here. I got to get out of San Francisco. I can't stay here. I was like, I'm going to go for it. I'm going to go for my dream and going to go to LA and pursue acting. And then that's what propelled me to come to LA and just take a leap of faith. And part of it was like, I kind of went nuclear. You know, I think this, that very difficult relationship, I just kind of had nothing to lose anymore. You know, so that's what got me to LA to pursue acting. And then, and then in LA, I fell into private tutoring, which was amazing. I had, you know, about 10 families I worked with it. I kind of felt like a girl boss, you know, like I was an independent contractor, you know, and, and it was a hustle. Like you had to get your clients and keep them happy. And if you were sick, there's no sick pay. When it the, you know, tutoring work is very seasonal. So in the Christmas time, all the families are on holiday. You're not getting paid. You know, so, but it was great. And it allowed me to go to auditions. But then pretty soon I was, I just became very disillusioned. I was like, Hollywood doesn't care about your story. He doesn't care about what I'm bringing to the room. I remember being just like outright. I just felt disrespected at an audition. Someone started to kind of make the casting director dude start to make fun of me a little bit. And I was just like, no, no, no, no. I'm like, this is I'm worth more than this. And then I was serving my students. Like I had students who really we were close and I was supporting them and their families and and it was amazing work. I was I was I was providing for them what I felt like I was provided. You know, and I thought a lot of my father and my mother helping me on my schoolwork and like that moment with my dad saying, hey, you're capable, you just need support. And I loved getting to be able to do that for these students and these one on one situations. And so then I just doubled down on that. And that was what I did until 2020. So from about. Gosh, I mean, I was tutoring for about 10 years in L.A. But it wasn't really full time, full time till maybe. Two thousand fifteen, but for that gap at five years, tutoring paid the bills. And I loved it. Well, now. So here you are, you're tutoring for 10 years. You're still trying to pursue pursuing your your dream of acting. What is it that led to the the transition out of tutoring? What happened that led you away from tutoring? Well, my father got sick. Well, yeah. And actually, I got I got pregnant. My husband and I were married in 2017. And we got pregnant unexpectedly in 2019. And we had a little studio apartment. So my husband was an entrepreneur. I was kind of this entrepreneur. He had a video production business. We had this little studio apartment. And we were pregnant and it was like, we're going to need a bigger apartment. You know, and I was like, I'll be fine. You know, the baby can just, you know, just sleep right here. I don't know. We'll figure it out. We'll figure it out, you know. But it was like. But then logistically, it just didn't, you know, I I don't I don't get PTO. State health insurance kind of sucked. I just didn't know logistically how having a baby was going to work. And so it was early on, but we kind of quickly knew that something's going to have to change. Probably. And then I lost and then I lost the baby. I hadn't really in this garage, but we realized how much we we did want to baby. And so I was at plant of the seed that something might need to change, like to be two entrepreneurs, things going to where they're going. We weren't bringing in a lot of money. We felt like it kind of the seed that if we do want a family, something would probably have to change that same month. My dad started to show signs of leuvency in his speech control. He got diagnosed the next month with ALS. So otherwise known as Lou Gehrig's disease, it's it's terminal. There's no cure. Yeah. When you start to show symptoms at around his age, kind of in his, I think, over 70. You have a year, two years to live. And, you know, I just lost a baby. And we knew we wanted one. And here on my here, we were in California. My dad was in Washington dying. And eating health. And we were and we also knew we needed a change if we wanted to pursue a family. And so it just felt like the universe was telling me to go be with my dad. So we did. We broke our lease and. And packed up our stuff and moved into my parents. In my parents' house, they had a nice, really nice face above the group, their garage. And we envisioned building our businesses in Washington state. You know, we could live with my parents and we thought we would try again for a baby, live with my parents, be there for them, be there for my dad and then try to build our businesses again. I thought I could keep. I could start tutoring remotely. I had clients I still who still wanted to work with me remotely. I could build up the business in the town where my parents lived. My husband had lived in Washington State for some time, so he had contacts. He could build up his video business. But ALS just kicked our butts. Like my dad's care, my dad's care needs increased dramatically very quickly. So he lost his ability to talk and then to eat. And then to walk. And then he lost his ability to lift his head. I think, you know, we we moved up there in August of 2020. And and he was still able-bodied. He could still talk a little bit. But then I remember when the snow came, I would we would take walks together and I he would have to lean on me. I would have to kind of, you know, support him through the walks. And so caring for him soon became our our full time jobs. And and then also I was pregnant at the time. I did get pregnant again. And then also COVID hit. So the idea of tutoring in person or having a video production business that just wasn't that just didn't seem possible, wasn't possible at the time. It didn't seem possible into the foreseeable future. And then, yeah, and then I think having a baby and trying to build a business from scratch in the middle of COVID just wasn't possible. And then when my father did die. Yeah, the grief, the grief was just. We had debilitating. Yeah. Anyway, you know. And I think it was the grief, but also the trauma posts caregiving. Yeah, it was it was rough. And at some point, you know, we had a little baby and my husband and I were like, we just we got a. We knew instinctually that we had to move on, you know, that we had to find a way forward. And and I I was worried about being a mom and teaching. I knew that teaching in the classroom takes a lot out of you. And I really wanted to have enough at the end of the day for my son. Also, we felt that we wanted one income to support the three of us. We really wanted one parent to have some flexibility, you know, and and my husband doesn't have a college degree and I do and I have to convey a really great school. So we felt confident that I would be able to support the family. And I didn't feel like I was going to be able to do that being a teacher. Yeah. So I so that was a plan and I just started doing some internet research and figure out where could I use my skills in in corporate America, I guess, in industry. And that's and that's what has led me to be in the position where I'm at now was just wanting to be able to support my family with the skills that I had. Yeah. Yeah. Let me ask you Caroline, because you remind us what is your title now with Boeing? Instructional Systems Designer. Instructional Systems Designer. That sounds very fancy. And for for for our high school students out there, basically, what do you do? So I design training and at Boeing, we need to provide training for the pilots that fly the planes and also for the mechanics that maintain the planes. So I work for maintenance training, so I help design training to train the mechanics who are employed by airlines to to work on the planes we sell them. Wow. Wow. You. You said and so this is me trying to connect dots going back a little bit. You you majored in comparative studies and race and ethnicity, right? You're in a master's degree in teaching. And so but here you are. You're doing corporate America. You're you're creating training videos and provide support. And so I think a lot of people, you know, young people don't they think of Boeing or they think of businesses and corporations like that and immediately think STEM thinking, engineering specific. But I think there are a lot of positions like this, right? Yeah, folks that with that background, with the teaching background, with instructional backgrounds that can do and shift into these positions. Yeah, correct. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And that was something I mean, I I didn't even think of Boeing when I was looking for a job and and and my dad worked at Boeing and I wasn't getting traction. I was I was submitting. I think I found just through a Google search that there was this position called an instructional designer. And it seems and I think essentially it's big companies want to train their employees. They don't do it in person anymore. They do it online. So they need people to design online training. And so I and so any most big companies will then have a training department that'll have little training modules online about just different policies like the attendance policy. Here's a little online lesson and take a little quiz at the end. And we there we we check the box that you have learned our attendance policy. So I play to Amazon and what's the other big one? I feel like Google, I think I just do a bunch of a bunch of places just, you know, like instructional designer apply, apply, apply, apply. And wasn't getting much traction. And then my husband said, what about what about Boeing? Like, what about Boeing? Am I OK? And then I googled it and it was like instructional systems designer at Boeing. I was like. But yeah. And so I didn't think Boeing would have had a place for me. And in fact, you know, I grew up. Like kind of rejecting it, right? Because that's something my dad did. And I think a lot of times we can't help by identifying with like the parent that's our gender sometimes. So, you know, my dad was in the engineer. My brother was an engineer. I wasn't going to be an engineer. I wasn't going to work at Boeing. So yeah, I right there with you. In addition, I was I was still there. Even like a year ago, I I I was, you know, working at Boeing. But I wouldn't I like the idea of having some sort of trajectory in the company going upwards. And then I was like, but I'm not an engineer. Like, is anyone going to take me seriously? Am I do I have any future here? So yeah, I learned that my manager's manager's manager had an English degree. And so I I emailed him and I said, hey, do you have some time as like a mentoring session? Just I've heard that you have, you know, you have this non-technical degree. And that's like me. And I'm and I just like to learn more about your career path. And so he was he was really excited to talk to me. And he was like, yeah, no, you're good. Like that English, you know, I feel my English degree and your degree really help you to think analytically and to be diligent in your thinking. And then he was also really encouraging and valuing of my experience of my other experience. Right. So so a lot of companies will have training departments. And so the fact that I actually was a teacher was, I think, meaningful to him. And then also because in our industry, mechanics are going to get younger and younger. That's the projection in the industry. And so the fact that I have experience working with high school students, he thought that was an asset. And I had kind of assumed to play that down because teachers don't have like a lot of respect or status in society. I didn't want to feel like I didn't want to lead with that. But he was like, no, that's really valuable. So he kind of gave me permission to own that. And I think that that's the more you can tell yourself that like own what you're bringing to the table, own everything you're bringing to the table. Is is a really valuable lesson and something I'm still learning. Yeah, yeah. So there's in a there's really surprising. I think pockets and all sorts of companies. And so, yeah, I think we just sometimes got to be little sleuths, you know, and find and find the the pockets that that might be there for us. Caroline, I want to be respectful of our time. We're coming up on an hour and. And I appreciate you sharing and opening up. And I know some of some of this was was tough to to revisit. So I I appreciate I appreciate that immensely. Um, as we transition out, you know, one congratulations on your work, on your family. You shared with me before we jumped on, just you all just bought a house. Congratulations. You know, but but as we transition out, I'd like you to think about. You know, if you had to leave our listeners out there with one piece of advice, and I'm going to be a little selfish because because I think, you know, we talked about this theme of this need this confidence. And it seemed like in your story early on, it was like, I could do everything. Right. But you were able, but you also experienced setbacks, experienced tragedy and failure and have been able to navigate those things. What advice would you give us? Give somebody a young person who, you know, is is is is dealing with failure. Is afraid to take on something because they're afraid of failure or or finds themselves in the midst of of of just life? Yeah. What what piece of advice would you like to leave them with? I think two things come to mind. One, I had a had a good friend. She was a mother of one of my students and very warm. She Greek and Egyptian and and practice and Greek Orthodox and and growing up in a Catholic home. I felt like we had a lot in common in terms of being family oriented. And then that Catholic Greek Orthodox thing, we just kind of felt like kindred spirits in a lot of ways. She's always trying to feed me. You know, that kind of thing, you know, Anna and I was going through a really hard time. My sister was going through her divorce and it was it was very difficult, just kind of devastating. And and and she said and I might be getting it wrong a little bit, but she says that the Bible tells us to pray for wisdom that I think there's a story where there's this King King Solomon and he he doesn't pray pray for riches. He doesn't pray for fame. He prays for wisdom and God says, you know, because you prayed for wisdom, I'm going to give you give you the riches and give you the power and and give you the wealth. And that really stuck with me. I my spiritual religious journey is not traditional in any way. I'm not trying to preach and I hope I am getting the story as right enough to not be offensive to anyone. But just that we go that every challenge and every setback in this life gives us gives us wisdom and that the other side of it is is powerful. And on the other side of tragedy and setback, I think is is wisdom for yourself and also for others. And so the so I think and it's inevitable that any setback, any challenge on the other side, it will be meaningful. And so I think to have faith in that and to know that. Certainly can be reassuring and comforting in those hard times. I think the biggest challenge will later be the best superpower. The other thing is just to unashamedly ask for help and resources. I think that was something I was tentative about growing up to ask for help. And that is something I've learned later to just to just do it. Like like that time when I asked my manager's manager's manager if he had time to meet to discuss, most of the time when you ask people, they're happy to they're going to say, yeah, yeah, I'd love to help you. And the worst thing they can say is no. And then they're the jerk. Them, you know, yeah. When I was applying for a job and I was I wasn't getting a lot of traction. I I told my friend and she hooked me up with a career coach who helped her. And he was starting out and he he generously said I I'm not I'm not going to ask. I'm not taking payment right now. I just I want the experience to support people. And he was really great, really helped me be thoughtful about my resume and learn how to just kind of play the game that there's just a game to play when it comes to applying for jobs. And I even got another coach who I did pay for. And she helped me really deal with the whole how to talk about salary because I was really struggling to ask for what I would worth. I didn't know what I was worth. I remember my first interview. This was before I got her as a coach. I think I finally got an interview as an instructional designer for a job. It was like a bank. It was some local bank in Olympia, Washington, when you probably haven't heard of it, right, which tells you what it was. And my husband, I had done the math and we knew, like, what our minimum, like, what would meet the bills we fight. And I think that the round to the nearest 10,000, it was 80,000. So that was kind of what we needed. And I didn't know if I because, you know, my starting salary as a teacher was like 44,000. So that's my price was much. I mean, it was a long time ago, but yeah, a lot of money. And so I remember him asking in the interview, so what are your salary expectations? And I said it like this, I said, 80,000. But, you know, you got to have that first interview to like sharpen your chops for the next. Yeah, I was a good experience, right? Anyway, he didn't. He didn't get a second interview. But then I got a coach and she helped me and I realized I had a lot of baggage about just money and worth and and stuff. And we were able to talk through it. And then I was really able to own, I think, that side of things. Yeah, going forward. And I'm just only getting better at it. It's still a challenge. But yeah, just if something's hard, it just means you need more help and just figure out where you can get it from, whether it's your friends or a church or a teacher, a mentor, just a resource at school or through the the Y or through your county. I call nine. The the I regularly call like the new mental health hotline when having a rough day, like just. Get just don't don't be embarrassed. If it's hard, just figure out how to get help no matter what. Yeah, yeah. I I love that. Thank you. I think, yeah, asking for help is tough. I I I see it with my students. I see it with a lot of my friends. I don't know what it is about me. I'm I'm very comfortable. I'm I think I recognize it. So I don't know where that comes from, but I'm on board. But it is a lesson that I always struggle with my students teaching my students. So I appreciate that. Caroline, thank you. Thank you so much for taking the time and sharing your story with me and your journey. I know I know it's going to resonate with a lot of our listeners out there. So I appreciate it. So thank you. Thank you, Jay. Yes, so lovely talking to you. Thanks for thanks for thanks for the time. You're welcome. This concludes another episode, the way to college podcast. Thank you to our guests. Thank you to our listeners out there. Please remember to share the podcast with one other person. And don't forget to like, share, subscribe, all of that good stuff, and we'll see you again soon. Bye bye. You