Violence unleashed in Mexico after death of drug lord

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. designer, marketer, logistics manager, all while bringing your vision to life. Shopify helps millions of business sell online. Build fast with templates and AI descriptions and photos, inventory and shipping. Sign up for your one euro per month trial and start selling today at shopify.nl. That's shopify.nl. It's time to see what you can accomplish with Shopify by your side. Hello and welcome to NewsHour. It's coming to you live from the BBC World Service studios in central London. I'm Tim Franks. We're starting the programme with the violence that has fled in Mexico after the killing of the country's most wanted leader of a drugs cartel. Namesio Oseguera Cervantes, a 59-year-old former policeman known as El Mencho, was wounded in an operation to arrest him in the state of Jalisco. He died while being flown to Mexico City. El Mencho's people in the Jalisco New Generation cartel retaliated by torching businesses and blockading roads with burning vehicles. The mayhem spread across the country. This video, posted online apparently by cartel members, shows them shooting at National Guard troops. It's the sound from Sunday, but by today the Mexican president, Claudio Sheinbaum, was trying to project a sense of control. Today there is more calm and there is government. There are armed forces, there is a security covenant and there is a lot of coordination. So you can rest assured that peace, security and normality in the country are being safeguarded. In a moment, we'll hear from the man who used to run international operations for the Drug Enforcement Administration in the United States and who spent a lot of time on the trail of the cartels in Mexico. Before that, we can catch up with our Central America correspondent, Will Grant, who is in Guadalajara, in Jalisco State. Will, can you, I mean, it looked pretty chaotic the pictures from yesterday can you can you paint the picture of what things are like today it was extremely chaotic tim yeah and the evidence of that chaos was uh there from the moment one left the airport really there were still burnt out cars uh on on the road um there was a huge security presence of uh military there was columns of military and and uh large numbers of police and and they continue to sort of patrol the city. There is this strange sort of calm returning, the one that Claudia Sheinbaum made reference to. There are businesses open, but not many. And, you know, there's just a bit of traffic on the streets and what should be kind of knocking on rush hour out here. So there is a very eerie sort of emptiness to the city. Sounds like people are sort of remaining very, very cautious about what may follow. So can you tell me about this operation, which I suppose in a sense, I mean, is a, you know, the Mexican authorities must be seeing as a success broadly. I mean, that they managed to get their man, albeit not arrest him, but they did take out this most feared of cartel leaders. Claudia Sheinbaum herself, I think in the past, has sort of been a bit of a critic of this kingpin strategy, this idea that you go after the top man because of the potential chaos that can then be unleashed. Has she had anything to say about that in particular? Not that I have seen, but I think it's a good point. She hasn't traditionally been a proponent of the kingpin strategy on that very idea that, you know, you knock out one and there is always another head for what is such a multi-headed hydra in these cartels, particularly one like the new generation, the Haleigh School new generation cartel. Nevertheless, she will, as it were, celebrate the removal of El Mencho from the panorama of drug trafficking in Mexico. He is an extremely influential figure. He is very powerful. He created a very powerful organisation in the Halesco New Generation cartel. They're responsible for the traffic of millions of billions of dollars, in fact, of fentanyl, methamphetamine and cocaine into the United States. And of course, it does something very important in terms of the relationship with Washington and with Donald Trump. and just in terms now of where you think this vast security presence that you talked about that you saw will go I mean do you think the the sense is that the the government will need to be in for a long haul in terms of a of a big operation to try and keep control well it's not worth forgetting that where I am at the moment in Guadalajara will be hosting the world cup in a matter of months This is one of the host cities of the FIFA World Cup. And that alone gives us a sense of the importance of maintaining order from the law enforcement perspective of the Mexican government. Now, doing that will be a challenge in the coming weeks. I feel like that they have to sort of keep that presence visible, but we'll have to see quite clearly what the reaction of not that cartel, but also other cartels is to this particular moment. Will there be fighting for territory and what will happen to the Haleasco New Generation cartel itself? Well, Grant in Guadalajara, very good to speak to you. Thank you. Mike Vitchell spent decades in the US's Drug Enforcement Administration, rising to be chief of international operations and spending a lot of time on the ground in Mexico. We'll get on to that possibility of further violence, further reaction that Will was mentioning in a moment. But first, how big a deal was El Mencho? And Mencho was probably one of the biggest drug lords in the history of drug trafficking. When you take into consideration and do a comparison with Pablo Escobar, Pablo Escobar only trafficked cocaine. And Mencho trafficked heroin, cocaine, fentanyl, methamphetamine, and then he had penetrated a lot of legitimate businesses in Mexico, started to move into Colombia and to South America. And Mencho ran the cartel very much like a dictator. And he was responsible for killing tens of thousands of people in Mexico to include security force personnel, journalists, political figures. Can I just pick you up, Mike? You say he was responsible for killing tens of thousands of people. I mean, that is an extraordinary figure. oh without question and you know his uh cartel operated very much like paramilitaries and many times they would travel in mexico with impunity you described him as a dictator given that he is now gone what do you expect to happen do you think that there will be an an obvious designated successor or do you think we're bound to see factional fighting i think that there's going to be a you know a split within the cartel which is going to lead to wholesale violence. So therefore, it's important that Mexico, at this point in time, attack the infrastructure of the cartel in Jalisco and take advantage of the fact that they're right now weak because everybody thought that El Mencho was invincible and that nothing would ever happened to him. I guess we won't know for a while, if ever, exactly how he came to be caught. I mean, it was to do, we're told, with sort of intelligence about him trying to arrange a liaison with a romantic partner. But what's your best guess of what level of cooperation there might have been between the US and Mexican authorities over his attempted arrest and then killing? The vast majority of the intelligence came from the Mexican government because El Mencho, although he's married, he was having relationships with another woman and he was going to see her constantly. and they were able to follow her to a residence and they confirmed that El Mencho was in that residence, which was a big mistake on his part. I was just wondering, there are obviously very few pictures or had been very few pictures of El Mencho. The three that I had seen had been put out by the FBI with their offer of a $15 million bounty for him. The question I had for you, Mike, was just in your experience at very senior level of the DEA, do these offers of rewards, do they actually work? No, in my experience, it was very rare that anybody was turned in for a reward payment, simply because the cartel leaders, They don't publish where they're going to be to everybody. There's only a few very trustworthy people that they confide in. But the reward payments rarely, rarely ever work. They're primarily symbolic. And there was Mike Vigil, former Chief of International Operations for the DEA. The former senior British minister and ambassador to the United States, Peter Mandelson, has been arrested at his home in London. Police are investigating him on suspicion of misconduct in public office. There are his links with the late sex offender Jeffrey Epstein. Mr Mandelson was seen being led by officers into the back of an unmarked car and then driven away. Rob Watson is our UK political correspondent. We don't know many more details. And I should say just by the wider context to start off with, Tim, that, you know, senior politicians being arrested on suspicion of serious criminal offences is vanishingly rare in British politics. So what we know is it's been several hours that he's been in police custody. We know that the police are questioning him. And we think, as you said, it's in connection with suspicions of misconduct in public office. And that is a reference, we understand, to allegations that Lord Mandelson, when he was a government minister in 2009, just after the financial crash, was sharing market sensitive government information with his friend Jeffrey Epstein. And these were this allegation or suspicion arises out of emails that were released when the Department of Justice in the US released their huge tranche of documents. I mean, Peter Madison himself has, you know, he hasn't publicly commentated, but I think it's the BBC understands that his position is that he hasn't acted in any way criminally and he wasn't motivated by financial gain. You mentioned the politics though, Rob. What political impact might this have in the United Kingdom? Any criminal investigation put to one side? Well, I guess more generally the impact that it might have, in fact it's already having it, Tim, you can tell that from public opinion surveys is that it just makes a British electorate already incredibly cynical angry about the system and politicians even angrier and more cynical And more specifically for the current Labour Prime Minister, Sakhir Starmer, I mean, any time Peter Mandelson is in the news, and he's clearly going to be in the news a lot, it is bad for the Prime Minister, because it keeps raising these questions about why on earth did you appoint him as British ambassador to Washington in December 2024, when his friendship with Jeffrey Epstein, maybe not the absolute depth of it, was publicly known. Are we likely to find out more about that in the coming days? Yes, we no doubt will, because the other problem alongside this police investigation is the fact that the government committed to release all sorts of documents, WhatsApp messages, texts, you name it, Tim, which were behind the decision to appoint Peter Mandelson. So potentially massive embarrassment, masses of texts for all sorts of politicians, including the Prime Minister. Our political correspondent, Rob Watson. You're listening to NewsHour from the BBC. And coming up in the programme, negotiations over Iran's nuclear programme will resume on Thursday as fears of war between the United States and Iran grow. Here we are today with two aircraft carriers around the Middle East region and both Tehran and Washington have yet to make significant public compromises to deliver a deal. And that's why the consensus right now is that war is imminent. More on that in just over 10 minutes. Our main headlines this hour. Mexico's deployed thousands of troops to maintain an order after the country's most wanted cartel leader, known as El Mencho, died after being captured on Sunday. And Britain's former ambassador in Washington, Peter Mandelson, has been arrested over his links with the late American sex offender Jeffrey Epstein. You're with the BBC World Service and this is NewsHour, live from London. I'm Tim Franks. We're deep into the film, TV and music awards season. Last night in London, it was the BAFTAs and as sometimes happens, the stories aren't just about who won, who missed out, but the unpredictable stuff around the fringes. And actually, this story is sort of about both. The surprise winner of Best Actor went not to any of the Hollywood A-listers who'd been nominated and were at the ceremony, but to Robert Arameo, a young actor from North East England who's the lead in the British film I Swear. Johnny Deere! It's called Tourette's Syndrome. I say things that I shouldn't. If you do anything here that you can't help, you'll never apologise. Part of the trailer for the movie, I Swear. The film is about a campaigner for Tourette's Syndrome, a man, well, you heard him refer to there as Johnny D, John Davidson, who was in the audience at Sunday's BAFTAs and whose verbal tics were clearly audible during the ceremony. Sometimes he swore, but there was a moment when the black actors, Delroy Lindo and Michael B. Jordan, went up on stage to present to an award. At that point, some in the audience heard John Davidson shout one of the most offensive racial slurs. The show's host, Alan Cumming, later apologised in the stage. You may have heard some strong and offensive language tonight. If you've seen the film I Swear You Will Know, that film is about the experience of a person with Tourette's Syndrome. Tourette's Syndrome is a disability, and the tics you've heard tonight are involuntary, which means the person who has Tourette's Syndrome has no control over their language. We apologise if you were offended. On social media, the actor Wendell Pierce said it is infuriating that the first reaction was not complete and full-throated apologies to Delroy Lindo and Michael B. Jordan. The insult to them takes priority. It doesn't matter the reasoning for the racist slur. The BBC, which broadcast the ceremony, has since apologised for the strong and offensive language. Lauren Wyatt was first diagnosed with Tourette's six years ago when she was 17. She now documents her experience living with the condition on social media and is, among other things, an advocate for the National Neurodiversity Youth Council. What does she make of what happened last night? I think that it was a very difficult situation for everyone involved. I watched the BAFTAs and I saw everything that unfolded online afterwards, all of the comments that have been made about John and his tick. And I think that the thing to remember is that people have every right to be hurt and upset by this tick, but that does not mean that there was malicious intent behind the tick. Coprolalia is the term for socially inappropriate verbal tics, and copropraxia would be socially inappropriate motor tics, such as gestures and swearing using hands, and that encompass any involuntary socially inappropriate behaviour. People with Tourette's, we don't get to choose our tics. with contextual coprotics, such as saying a racial slur in the presence of someone black, or saying a homophobic slur in the presence of a gay person shouting bomb at the airport. We often say the worst thing possible in a situation, but that does not mean that our tics represent our personal feelings or beliefs. There's no perfect solution to this, except empathy and understanding towards both parties. I've been seeing a lot of people saying at the minute that they think that people are using Tourette's as an excuse to be racist, homophobic. It's letting out their internal thoughts and fish and what they really want to say, what they really think, and they just don't have that barrier to be able to hold it back. That's not the case at all. An example of this would be my most common tick for a long time was I'm actually a salmon. And I would say that hundreds of times a day. And I think that most people who came across me, they know that I don't actually believe I'm a fish. It's complete nonsense. It doesn't reflect my thoughts, my feelings, my beliefs. And it's the same as those racist homophobic tics. We don't mean to say them. How do you manage, may I ask, day to day? Because obviously there will be among your friends and family and those who know you, they will know who you are and they will know the sorts of things that you do and say. But when you're out in a public space, that must be really difficult. How do you handle that? It is very, very difficult to exist as a Tourette's person in society in general. Fish. I'm part of the 15% of people who have coprotix. So contrary to popular belief, swearing is not on the diagnostic criteria for Tourette's. It only occurs in 15% of people with it. But for those people with it, those coprotix are just as uncontrollable as any other tic. fish fish fish and it is very difficult to live with because people do not understand a lot of people think that it's a behavioral thing they think I'm doing it on purpose for attention or as an excuse to be offensive fish fish and that misunderstanding of the condition has led to a lot of incidents I mean at this point in my life pretty much every time I leave the house I experience like fish I experience harassment in some form whether that is people shouting at me people threatening me, people filming me without my consent, people even throwing things at me has happened a few times and all because of a symptom of my disability. I cannot control it. Fish. I understand that my tics can cause harm. If I say something inappropriate, if I say something upsetting, if I say a slur, I will apologise for the harm that that tic has caused. I will support that person but I shouldn't have to apologise for having Tourette's. If you are in a potentially stressful situation and whether you are more likely to use words that other people may well find offensive or inappropriate? Yeah, so I definitely find that when I'm in an environment that could go very wrong if I were to say something inappropriate, I am much more likely to say that as a tick. And if I am in a stressful situation, for example, a big one for me is going through airport security, fish, my ticks go through the roof. I shout, I swear, I say I've got drugs, I say I've got a bomb. I say all of these horrible things that I don't mean and I don't want to say. And that is just the way that this condition works. Fish. Is there anything that you can do in advance to try and mitigate that when you're in a place like an airport? There are things that I do wherever I go. I mean, with an airport specifically, I tell them in advance. I book special assistance through the airport. I have a lanyard on that says I have Tourette's syndrome. I also, wherever I go, carry around like almost business cards but on it it says why do i swear this is not an act i can't control it and it has a brief explanation of tourette's and a qr code that can send people to like for example the tourette's action website or somewhere they can find out more if they're interested and i find that this makes me feel more safe because when a situation does escalate and people do start shouting and making threats i can try and reduce that tension by handing them a leaflet by explaining myself but again in those high stress situations it makes me more likely to say those inappropriate things so as much as I'm trying to say I don't mean this I've got Tourette's way alongside that I could be calling them names I could be escalating this situation through my tics. Given all that what do you make of the film I swear? I think that it's absolutely incredible and incredible doesn't even nearly come close to the impact that this is going to have on people's lives and I would even go as far as to say that this film will save lives. If you look at the statistics people with Tourette's are four times more likely to die by suicide than the general population and this is because of all of them. Very many issues that we deal with as a result of our Tourette's both as a result of society's view of Tourette's and of the tics themselves. They are very painful, they're exhausting. We need understanding. Understanding and acceptance. resistance fish right um and to be able to exist in a world that doesn't judge us for something that we can't control it can make all the difference for example for me like when i was first diagnosed i felt very lost i didn't know how i was ever going to come to terms with this but through finding a community of other people with tourettes and surrounding myself with people who even if they don't fully understand what it's like to have it they understand that i can't help and I'm doing my best. Fish. That has made all the difference. Fish, fish. And that was Lauren Wyatt. The Tourette's campaigner, John Davidson himself, has put out a statement within the last couple of hours saying that he is deeply mortified if anyone considers my involuntary tics to be intentional or to carry any meaning. You're listening to NewsHour from the BBC. Thank you. I understand that you want to listen to your podcast, so I'll keep it short. Because if you think it's important to make a more expensive choices, maybe ASR can help. I hear you think, how then? For example, when you're selling the things you love to save. Want to know more about the insurance where a more expensive expensive choice is? Go to asr.nl slash duurzamekeuzes. This is ASR for you and a more expensive society. ASR does it. So, now you can listen to your podcast. Thank you roles designer marketer logistics manager all while bringing your vision to life Shopify helps millions of business sell online Build fast with templates and AI descriptions and photos inventory and shipping Sign up for your one euro per month trial and start selling today at shopify.nl. That's shopify.nl. It's time to see what you can accomplish with Shopify by your side. Welcome back to NewsHour. So what are the prospects this week? Dr. Sanam Bakil is director of the Middle East programme at the UK think tank Chatham House. The Iranians and the Americans are giving diplomacy one last chance as both sides are simultaneously preparing for a confrontation. And at the same time, there is mobilisation on the American side, indicating that war is imminent. And to prepare for that. There is hedging across the region to protect citizens, to protect assets and infrastructure. So, you know, we're really hanging between war and peace in this moment, waiting to see if the talks in Geneva that are meant to be held on Thursday are going to result in a meaningful outcome or not. And in terms of the prospects for those talks, I mean, lots of people are saying it's very difficult to construct a universe where both the Iranians and the Americans will find a deal acceptable. And for that reason, a lot of people seem to think it's pretty inevitable that there's going to be some sort of American military strike. What's your view? Well, I think it feels inevitable because the US hasn't mobilized and moved this amount of military equipment into the region since 2003 when they launched the invasion of Iraq. Here we are today with two aircraft carriers around the Middle East region and both Tehran and Washington have yet to make significant public compromises to deliver a deal and that's why the consensus right now is that war is imminent. And as far as the Iranians are concerned, clearly they have maintained their position that, look, we want the right to be able to continue to enrich uranium. And, you know, we want to have what they insist is a peaceful nuclear program and all the rest of it. And we'd like sanctions relief. What do you make of the analysis that some are saying that, you know, obviously, the Iranian regime wants to avoid war, but not at any cost, and that actually giving up the right to enrich uranium altogether would be seen as a risk that is even greater than actually perhaps having to endure a war at the hands of America? Firstly, the Iranians, as signatories to the Non-Proliferation Treaty, would like to legally maintain their right. And so they're looking for a compromise from the United States that would allow them to enrich domestically for research and medical purposes. But secondly, what the Iranian government really needs right now in tandem to those rights, significant sanctions relief. And without that sanctions relief, I think that the Iranian system feels like it needs to gamble, perhaps even with a military conflict in order to improve their position at the negotiating table. And that was Dr. Sanam Bakil, Director of the Middle East Program at Chatham House. You're with the BBC World Service and this is NewsHour from London with me, Tim Frax. It sometimes feels there's a grim predictability and rhythm to the news out of Ukraine, particularly when it comes to the daily bombardment by missile and by drone deep into Ukrainian territory, designed as far as possible to make life for Ukrainian civilians as well as soldiers as difficult, if not outright lethally dangerous, as possible. And yet the sense of defiance among Ukrainians, despite the exhaustion and the privations, is remarkable. Tomorrow, Tuesday, marks the anniversary four years ago when Russia launched its full-scale invasion of its neighbour. And summoning that sense of defiance is the wartime president, Volodymyr Zelensky. He's told the BBC that it's only a matter of time before Ukraine retakes all the land seized by Russia over the last four years of war, and he's convinced that Ukraine can win it. He's been speaking in Kiev to our international editor, Jeremy Bowen. In any case, we will achieve that. That is absolutely clear. It's only a matter of time. To do it today would mean losing a huge number of people, millions of people, because the Russian army is large, and we understand the cost of such steps. We would not have enough people. We would be losing them. And what is land without people? Honestly, nothing. And we also do not have a sufficient amount of weapons. That depends not only on us, but on our partners. As of today, this is not available. But returning to the just borders of 1991 is without a doubt a victory for justice. When Joe Biden was U.S. president, he was worried about Putin's nuclear threats, nuclear saber rattling, fear of World War III. Does Trump think the same way? We have different views regarding a third world war. I believe that Putin has already started it. The question is how much territory he will be able to seize and how to stop him. Not because Russia must not win, but because Russia wants to impose on the world a different way of life and change the lives people have chosen for themselves. Therefore, I believe and have long believed that Putin has already begun this war and we're preventing it from becoming a broad, full-scale Third World War. Let's talk a little bit about the ceasefire talks which are going on. Well, there's talk of another round next week. You have said that both the United States and Russia have told you that the way to get a ceasefire by the summer is for you, Ukraine, to give up the 20% of Donetsk that you still have, those so-called fortress cities. Isn't that a reasonable thing to do? They're both asking for it. I see this differently. I don't look at it simply as land, or not only as that. I see it as abandoning, weakening our positions, abandoning hundreds of thousands of our people who live there. Steve Witkoff, Trump's negotiator, goes to Moscow, talks to Putin, he comes back, the messages are then relayed to you. It seems to be, a lot of people would say, that he is absorbing Putin's talking points, Russia's narrative, and they are putting it to you and getting you to agree that they're putting you under a lot of pressure. Today, I cannot say that for certain. Do you know why? Because Witkow says the opposite. I met with your group more often than with the Russians. That is what he says. Indeed, I have had many meetings with President Trump, while President Trump has only one meeting with Putin. My opinion, they should stop the Russians, not try to please them, because they will lie anyway. They care only about themselves and their own interests. And that was Vladimir Zelensky speaking to Jeremy Byrne. It's clearly Ukraine much smaller and less powerful than its neighbour which has suffered over the last years with this war that was not of its own choosing but Russia's also paid a price in blood and treasure and disruption. Our Russia editor Steve Rosenberg travelled to Lipitsk region halfway between Moscow and the Ukrainian border to explore the impact of the conflict there. In the town of Yiliats walk down Orginlikidze street and you'll come to a butcher a baker and an online shopping collection point. Look up and you'll see a mural. It takes up an entire side of a nine-storey block of flats. It shows the faces of five Russian soldiers, local men killed fighting in Ukraine. The giant image hangs over this town, like the war on Ukraine hangs over Russia. I notice that passers-by are not looking up at the picture. It's as if after four years, for people here, this war is no longer something extraordinary. Opposite the mural, Leonid is in trouble. His car is stuck in the snow. two women with shovels appear and try to dig him out. Leonid tells me he follows news of the special military operation, Russia's war on Ukraine. He knows a lot of people who are fighting there. Our guys will win, he says, no doubt. And then adds, it's just a shame that people are being killed. Irina, who works at the bus station, stops to talk to me. She tells me that the husband of her friend has been killed fighting in Ukraine, and her cousin's son and grandson. The Russian authorities do not publish casualty figures for this war. But conversations like this one point to huge battlefield losses. More and more Russians tell me about family, friends, or friends of friends who've been wounded or killed in Ukraine. Irina sends aid packages to Russian soldiers on the front line. She doesn't criticise the war, but she is confused by it. In World War II, we knew what we were fighting for, Irina says. I'm not sure what we're fighting for now. Over the last four years, the Russian authorities have come up with all kinds of answers to that question. President Putin has spoken of denazifying Ukraine, demilitarizing it. Russian officials talk variously about defending Russian speakers there, reclaiming historical Russian land, about halting NATO expansion and about protecting Russia itself from alleged Western plots to destroy it. Mixed messaging. What is clear is that this war has changed towns like Yilets. Driving around, I see army recruitment posters and emergency shelters in case of drone attacks. And the local pancake stand features the Latin letters V and Z, symbols of Russia's war on Ukraine. And the fast food sign has this slogan. Grab a pancake and then the whole world. At a local bakery, they're feeling Russia's economic downturn after four years of war. Costs have soared. Many small businesses have been hit by tax hikes. The bakery and its customers are having to cope with rising utility bills and higher prices. The subject of money is a very important one now, says bakery owner Anastasia. Everyone is thinking about it. People are worried, they're angry, and they're wondering how to get by. And do you remember what date is it today? You can look at the board at what date is it. 50 miles away, in the regional capital, Lipitsk, Yulia Kashinka is teaching a class at her language school. UK relations are acutely strained over Ukraine but Russians still want to learn English The war though is impossible to ignore You understand that Ukraine is situated not so far from our territory and of course we feel it. We watch TV every day, and we see this picture, we see this news. We are hoping for the best. If we don't have any hope, it will be very difficult and complicated to live and to move forward. In an apartment block across town, it's proving difficult and complicated to deal with a leaking pipe. In the lobby entrance, there's ice on the floor and on the walls, and the lifts stop working. Ivan Pavlovich complains to me about the water that's trickling down and about his utility bills that are going up. He concedes that life would be easier without a war on. But if I were younger, I'd go and fight, Ivan declares. The special military operation is excellent. It's just that prices keep rising. Pensions go up, but then prices go up even more. So what do I gain? Nothing. In the lobby, the Cold War has begun. Someone is breaking up the ice and disposing of it outside. Not everyone in Russia joins the dots and connects their social and economic problems with a costly war on Ukraine. But many Russians do feel that life is getting harder and few seem to believe it will get any easier anytime soon. That was Steve Rosenberg reporting from Western Russia and the UN Secretary General, Antonio Guterres, has put out a statement on the occasion of the fourth anniversary of Russia's full-scale invasion of Ukraine, saying that it's been a devastating war, It's a stain on our collective consciousness and remains a threat to regional and international peace and security. And Russia's full-scale invasion was in violation of the United Nations Charter and international law. The longer the war continues, the deadlier it becomes. Now, a quick update on a story we brought to you during the Winter Olympics, which closed on Sunday. The American ski great Lindsay Vaughn has said that she came close to having a left leg amputated after breaking it in a crash in the Olympic downhill race earlier this month. I think it was two Sundays ago, in fact. In a social media post, Vaughn thanked the doctor who had operated on her leg and said she's now at a hospital. Dr. Tom Hackett saved my leg. He saved me. And, you know, I always talk about everything happens for a reason. but if I hadn't torn my ACL, which I would have torn anyways with this crash, if I hadn't done that, Tom wouldn't have been there. He wouldn't have been able to save my leg. So I feel very lucky and grateful for him. So I want to say thank you to Tom and all the medical staff in Italy and Colorado that helped take care of me. It's been quite the journey, and it's going to be a long road. I'm in a wheelchair right now. I'm very much in mobile. I'll be in a wheelchair for a while because I also broke my right ankle. So I hope I can be on crutches in a little bit, but we'll see, and probably at least be on crutches for two months. But I'm going to get right to work on rehab and see what I can do and take it one step at a time. And that was Lindsay Vaughn speaking after her leg operation. This is New Zealand. This is NewsHour from the BBC. I'm out. Part of the trailer for the Oscar-nominated Portuguese language film The Secret Agent, a stylish Brazilian crime drama about an academic on the run in 1977, set against the backdrop of the country's military dictatorship. Those who've seen it, and I confess I'm in the yet to category, say that it's a wild ride, funny, poignant, thrilling and thought-provoking. Actually, those specific words of praise come from my fellow NewsHour presenter, Leila Nathu, who has watched it and has also been speaking to the film's star, Wagner-Mora, who takes the lead role of Marcelo. I was born in 76 and the dictatorship ended in 85, but it didn't really end in 85. I feel that the echoes of the dictatorship are still very present in Brazil. Of course, Brazil is a democratic country, you have a democratic president, but we elected the president that was trying to bring back to Brazil of the 21st century the values of the dictatorship. So I guess that it wasn't that complicated. You know, first I had directed a film that took place during the dictatorship too, a film called Marighella, about a freedom fighter, the leader of the resistance against the dictatorship in Brazil that died in 69. So I knew a little bit of what Brazil was culturally, politically, socially back then. But most importantly, I think that the feeling of the contradictions of Brazil are still very present. The scars of the dictatorship run deep, really. So how's it been received in Brazil? Beautiful, beautiful. It became a blockbuster in Brazil, beating like American superhero films. Brazilians embraced the film in a very loud way because they go to the social medias and the moment that the film is going through, like with the awards and everything, they're very Brazilian fans are very loud and I like that very much and again when Brazil took that turn to the far right they were very effective in demonizing artists and journalists and you know scholars and things like that so probably you guys have this here in the UK too like the discussions about whether the government should fund culture it became a huge thing and the right was very effective in transforming artists in Brazil into the enemies of the people. So to see Brazilians rooting for their artists, it's just an incredible moment. I'm very happy and proud. Tell us about your character. How did you see Marcelo? Well, this film came from a very personal thing for me. Marcelo is a scholar that is being chased by Hitman during the dictatorship. For me, he's just a man who's trying to stick with the values that he has in a moment when everything around him says the opposite. And I love this about this character. He's not a freedom fighter. He's not a revolutionary. He doesn't want to overthrow the government. He's just a man who wants to be himself. And it's crazy to think that in moments like the dictatorship in Brazil or even like in many other places in the world right now, it's hard just to be who you are. You don't have to try to do anything against the government. Just the fact that you have a particular skin color or you think that God is something that the government doesn't think the same or, you know, your political ideas, that can end your life. And that's what happened in Brazil back then. People just disappeared. And it's a very silent character because I don't think I have ever played a character where everything had to be so internalized. Because, as you know, in a dictatorship, you cannot call the cops. You cannot do anything. You cannot scream. And you cannot hire a lawyer. When you're going through something that you believe is not fair, you cannot do what people do usually. I think you absolutely do get that sense of all the forces against him. But there are also some major themes, at least to me, it struck me that the film tackles class, corruption, and then obviously later how you relate to your past, your country's past and your own history. Yes, it's a lot about amnesia, I think, self-inflicted amnesia. amnesia that's what happened to us in brazil i remember again i was born during the dictatorship so i went to school in the 80s and the kind of books that i read were like when i think about it today it was like what was that you know i was reading like the revolution of 64 that saved brazil from communism or like so interesting how yeah the truth you know is something that especially nowadays, it's something that's kind of over. But back then, but in any dictatorship, that's what it is. The narrative is whatever the people that are in power says it is. Yeah, and in 79 in Brazil also, we had this law called the Amnesty Law. And that law basically forgave. It was the dictatorship forgiving themselves. So it forgave all the torturers, all the killers, all the people that did despicable things to civilians. And so generations and new generations in Brazil grew up thinking that that was okay. And it's great that I think that right now I have to say I'm very proud of Brazil because we are finally getting even with that amnesia problem. When we sent Bolsonaro to jail for attempting against a democracy in the country or we sent military people to jail for the first time in Brazil. This is a process that is starting. And hopefully the new generations in Brazil won't have to deal with that lack of memory that we see clearly in the end of the film. I mean, yeah. And that is so interesting how different generations relationship with a particular period of time in a country's history can itself change over time, depending on the mood and depending on what's happened since then. I have to ask you about the pace of the film, because, you know, it's a very long film. It's almost three hours long. And it certainly starts off very slowly and takes a lot of time for Marcelo's story to come clear. I just wonder in this age of very short attention spans. I mean, it felt to me that this is a film made for cinema, where you are there in darkness, concentrating on it fully. I mean, these sorts of films do still have a place, don't they, in cinema? Oh, yeah, man. I mean, I'm glad they do, right? Like, otherwise, we would be forced to see one scene per second. You know, it doesn't depend on how many minutes the film has. You know, it's more like, am I connecting to this thing? Am I just communicating something to me? So you're in town for, you were in town for the BAFTAs last night. The film missed out on the awards last night, but it has been decorated already. and it's obviously nominated for a number of Oscars, including for you as Best Actor. Are these sorts of things important for you? Oh yeah, they're important. It's great for me. I'm so happy about it. And it's not all the time that you get that kind of attention. It's a beautiful moment for Brazilian cinema. This is a Brazilian film that has been having the attention of the world. Wagner Maura the actor who is the hero in The Secret Agent that Brazilian crime drama and Oscar nominated film Wagner Maura was talking to my New South colleague Leila Nathu that's it from this edition of the programme for me Tim Franks and the rest of the team here in London thanks for your company www.shopify.nl with Shopify by your side.