Zoe Lister-Jones

Welcome to It's Open with Alana Glazer. That's me. Hey, I just came off this conversation. It was so, honestly, this was a turning point for me as an interviewer because this conversation was so present because my subject is such a presence and she is both real and grounded but upward looking and pleasure seeking. She's fucking brilliant. She's an actor, a writer, a director, a producer and a queer icon. Today's guest was counsel woman, Fawn Moscato, a new girl. You know her as the filmmaker behind Band-Aid and the TV creator, star and director behind the very sexy show Slip. Please join me in welcoming Zoë Lister Jones. Hi, Zoë Lister Jones. Where does Jones come from? My dad. Jewish Jones? No, Convert Jones. Copy that. So you grew up in Brooklyn. I did. How old are you? I'm 43. Are you whispering because it scares you? Your age? I mean, I get it. How old are you? I'm 38. Oh, is that so much younger? It is, actually. It's tremendously younger. I mean, I'm the oldest I've ever been. I know me too. Truly. And it's also like, I think of people as trees, like tree rings. Like, your 38-year-old is like, just right there. You know what I mean? I'm 38, 30, 30, 36. I'm 36. I'm like, I'll access you. You know, I'm so excited to interview you today because you're really smart and you're locked into reality and you share reality really well. We've been at whatever places that are like, spare to me, fanning. And like, they are. But like, also, you're like, get in a corner and get fucking real about it, you know? But you also, so in a way, you're a real New York Jew who shares reality and can be in the soil of it. But also, you have a lightness and a delight to you and a pleasure and curiosity that you take. Thank you. I'm not as fun as you. You're fun. Come on. And you're like, you're putting out of here. And so I, I'm surprised that you're like 43. What? I know. Because, because like the feminist in me should be like, screaming it from the rooftops. Oh, I don't know. I mean, sure. Listen, my 40s, I think have been the best decade of my life. I think it does continue to get better. And also, there's something there's talk about internalization of like, oppressive forces. Yeah, I think it's just like internalized misogyny that I don't want to get older as a woman that I am hanging. I'm hanging on to that youth for dear fucking life. You're like the feminist in me should be screaming it from the rooftops. I thought, oh, this is a woman thing. So it's the internalized misogyny. It's what is it looks or like, your perceived value from the misogynist outside world? Probably yes. I mean, I think looks are tied into the perceived value from the outside misogynist world. Right? What do you do for looks? Honestly, I like did Botox five or six times. I kind of gave it up and I'm like, I don't know. I'm, I'm raw dog in space. Right now. I'm just like, we'll see what I look like. You know what I mean? I know I was really, I wore it as a badge of honor that I had not received Botox. That's not what you do. Well, like almost an art culture. You do receive it like an age. Submit. Yeah. And then this year, I tried it for the first time. Cool. And I dig it. I just, I don't know. And I dig it. And I'm still kind of figuring out where it stands in my like soul. Sure. You know, and also it's like, we're full of contradiction. Full of contradiction. You know, I'm like, my algorithm is a lot of girl, it's a lot of like punishing. My algorithm is like, you better be tapping every area, tap and slap and massage with your fish. Oh my God, the lymphatic. And this is when we're swinging the arms. Oh, I'm swinging. I'm swinging my arms. We got a deep puff. We got a snatch. We got to do the braids that Annie Hathway is doing. What are those? Everyone's talking about how snatched she looks. Oh, absolutely. Unbelievable. Like porcelain shucking. Unbelievable. Yes. D-agent. I mean, the women that we're looking at are D-agent. And she's now revealed that she's got tiny braids on the side of her head. And they're just yanking them back. Literal hair braids. I thought this was like a thread, thread spatial type of thing. No literal braids. This is just like, thank you, Annie. Thank you, Annie. This episode brought you by Anne Hathaway's braids. I was thinking about Anne Hathaway just yesterday. Do you remember the hairpin trick on her lips? Before a photo shoot, she just like prods her lips a little bit to pump them up. No. She's so, I like her. Icon. She's a fucking icon. And she shares it. Yes, I agree. I agree. She shares it. That is so funny. Okay, I love it. It's like a little wig tape shit. We're talking chair, we're talking gaga. Okay, I'm loving it. Okay, do you do like laser facials? Yeah. I haven't done it yet. I've just tried it. Oh, you know what I did that was honestly talk about internalized misogyny, psycho, Morpheus. Oh, that's supposed to be really rough. This is like near suicidal. And like, the technology like improved so quickly that like, I shouldn't have done it. It was like, needle, micro needling, but as staples like punch it like in a bed, a bed of needles just like punch in the face. And then your skin's just falling off. Crazy. Just nuts. And then I did it one month apart, three months in a row. And they're like, and all you got to do it is once a year. It was, it was, and the, oh girl, it was nuts. It's like, I should just be doing like painless laser facials. And I love a good old fashioned like human hands facial. Yeah, love human hands facial. I've done the vampire facial. Which they out with like blood, they take your blood, they mix it up, then they put it back in the face to say, did you, did you find a, I don't know what I find with any of them. I don't think that myself loathing will be like, I know, fixed by a single goddamn procedure. I have a line in my, in my new hour where like, I go through my whole journey with Botox. And then I'm like, and then I stopped because, you know, I just because I go to so much therapy and you, it turns out you can never have enough Botox to be done with Botox, but you can have enough therapy to be done with and the thing is like, I did Botox like five or six times, you know, every six months or something for over a couple of years. And I stopped and I'm like, I honestly, I truly don't judge. And I'm like, get a girl. You want like glass skin. I'm loving it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I'm like, I honestly think that it's like a spirit thing. And like, yeah, if you're like genuinely happy with yourself, you look hot. And then there's also the difference as a woman. Oh, it's so sad we're slicing and dicing ourselves, but it does also help to like do the math and be like, can we look at these receipts and go with this? You know, the difference between being like, huh, and fuckable, like to admit sexual energy, yes, 100% important and genuinely creative. Yeah, I totally agree. Like, that's why I think my 40s have been fun. Because I think you, you do become more fuckable in your 40s, because you become more self actualized. Yeah. And that that is the sexy 100. That's, that's the sexy part. And your energy is like just drawing, drawing in to your pussy. I feel the lines around my door. Yeah. I gotta I'm swatting them away. I'm loving it. Yeah, I'm fucking loving it. You are something I love about you as a person and you in your work is that you center pleasure. Slip is a TV series you created, wrote and directed and starred in. Yeah. About a woman who takes a portal into the multiverses she could have lived in through orgasm. Yeah. Had you come up with it? I wonder, was it fucking your way through a TV pitch? I love this system. Fucking my way through TV pitches, a story of my life. I had made, so I had directed this film Band-Aid written and directed and starred in it and and like easy. And I guess I'm starting there because like that felt, we can talk about it also separately, but that was like a very the process of making that film was really important to me. And I hired all women as crew. And I was also like interested in exploring. Yum. Heaven. Heaven. Can we just stop there for a second about talking about, you know, I think it's like interesting as women who I think you and I have strong voices and we assert ourselves and I think people make assumptions about our level of self-confidence. But then the moment you like open door, you're like, by the way, filled with shit, loading and shit out now and it's hard. You know, and it's like, it's actually a practice and an effortful practice to keep climbing toward that self-actualization. Yes. And to not disempower yourself when given ample opportunity. That's right. That's right. How much messaging do we have baked in that you can just pop, pop, pop. And you know, the thought of, and I remember, I remember hearing, this is like either after Broad City or at the tail of an end of Broad City, which is seemingly the most empowered, you know, feminist, female centered process. And yet, when I like read, I think it was in an Instagram post that you were hiring all female crew and bandit. I was literally like, like arrested, paused, couldn't believe it. The, it sounds like heaven to me. It was heaven. Heaven. And I, I, what I mean to say is that is a choice centering pleasure. Yes. Because women on set fucking rocks. Rock. Yeah. 100%. And I've actually never thought of it that way. And so thank you for framing it because it is, obviously it was like, it was me wanting to like subvert a really broken system. But I actually think more than anything, it was about me creating an environment that I wanted to work in and no shade to the men, you know, I do want to say, because I'm also like having, I'm having these conflicting feelings lately as the hate machine that is powering the oligarchy and our federal government right now, this hate machine, we don't even realize, you know, progressives don't have that organization, don't have that money. Conservatives, it is a multi-billion, perhaps trillion dollar hate machine. They're starting, you know, they're going back into the tradwives and young women who look like, I don't know what she could be, and then she's having hate messaging. And they're like, they hate men, these feminists. I mean, it's such an old bizarre, flat playbook. They hate men. No, we don't. And, and we don't hate male individuals either. It's a system that fucks everybody over, not equally, but fucks, takes from everybody, no shade to the men, but it's, it's given the power structure that we live in, which is an oppressive one toward women, it's almost like you created a planet, a different planet to go to. And you know what's so funny, now I'm realizing with slip, it's almost like a portal. It's like Band-Aid was a portal. Yes, absolutely. I was shook. Again, me and Abby, making Broad City, I was shook when I read that. And that means so much to me because obviously Broad City was like fundamental to my sort of emergence as, as an artist really like, oh, unbelievable, truly. But yeah, I, it was a magical experience and one that also I think, like just impacted the art in such a like cellular way. And that movie was about many things, but I think it was also about like the mythology of what a woman's, what, what we're taught a woman's life is supposed to look like and what happens when we don't meet it and how we as women can feel like failures. That movie deals with miscarriage, but also just like the dissolution of a partnership. And it's also funny. It's a musical. Yeah. But, but I think that like the next step, I made a couple of movies in between, but slip was living in me during that process and after, because to me, it felt like the next step in terms of like feminist filmmaking was to put sex, female sexual pleasure, pleasure at the forefront, pleasure at the forefront. And it felt really radical for me to do that. And so I, it was also just like really fun because I think it delves into female fantasy and sexual fantasy in a way that I live in that place. I do be fantasizing a lot. And, and so like where our fantasies take us when we, you know, have casual sex, like the future tripping that one can fall prey to of like, and then this is what our lives look like. I know it's like we're like good at sex, but we're like really the best writers in our mind. And we can just like write chapters. Yeah. It's, it's amazing. And the projection of like who that person is in our mind and in our story. Instead of like actually focusing inward on like who we are in that moment. Yes. Yes. And like how that person can fit into like a fantasy that kind of isn't written by us. You know what I mean? Yes. And also like it's, we, I think sometimes we think as women or perhaps like as reflective women going through the, our own feminist journey, we think, oh, I've put so much on this other person, this other partner, and, and, and put so much weight on them instead of myself. But it's actually like you're also using that person as a figment of your imagination and dehumanizing them. And they're like a caricature just serving. It is self-actualization. And there is a sense of either using each other or working with each other to figure out who one is, whether you're like really in a committed partnership or casually having sex. Yeah. That is, you know, it's this outward versus inward versus outward versus inward looking, I guess. Yeah. And like, that's when the bottom falls out is when your projection no longer holds, you know, when you're like, oh, you're not the person that I created. Yeah. In that way that does feel kind of like using someone or totally not seeing someone or not wanting to see someone. And it's kind of a relief when the bottom falls out because you're not holding it up like the whatever ancient sculpture is that I don't know enough to reference. Forget it. Google it. I don't know. You know, and it's like kind of a relief when you're forced, I think, to sit with yourself. Yeah. Yeah. Like, who am I now? And like in your 40s, actually, it's like in late 30s, it's like, I've been also whatever, I'm just like talking about my fucking stand up, but I've been talking about it and stand up just a little bit that I still have to refine, but about young people and they're like, cokey energy and they're always looking around for who they are. Yeah. And I'm like, I get it, but it's like, it's a relief when literally your nervous system as an older, tired fucking person comes enough to just be like, all right, I'll stop running and just sit with myself to figure out this thing. Yes. Yes. It's totally a relief. And like, it is absurd. It's like horrifying and a relief. Totally. But it is why we're in so much therapy. And I will say too, late 30s, there was sort of an internalized or an internal sexual revolution that happened for me, which I've heard occurs for many women around late 30s of like, I sort of something woke up in me because 20s, my sex life in my 20s at least was like, you know, a gong show. Like it was really, it was a mess. Yeah. It was, um, yeah, yeah, because you are in that like, cokey phase of life being like, do you love me? Do you love me? Does sex mean love? Does love mean sex? Like what? I also felt like I was like an accountant where I was like, sort of like building a portfolio rather than like, having an experience. Totally. For me, it was, um, it was pregnancy where I, and I honestly, I wanted to have a kid to, to get pregnant and to have the experience of having a kid, but pregnancy, I was like, I need to know, I need to be forced to be in my body. Yes. And it was like so interesting to me how, um, to have, it's like being in puberty, but in your adulthood and actually knowing what to do with the spontaneous horn, horniness. Yes. Like before you ever hear of, um, contextual, I mean, LOL, they don't call it horniness, but contextual, um, arousal versus spontaneous. Where spontaneous, you're just like, damn, I'm horny. Yeah. But contextual, you know, ladies, we like, like candles, we like story, we like prologue, you know what I mean? Whatever the fuck. And you know, like that was the first time I had all this spontaneous arousal that I was like, damn, it's really fun to feel secure enough to then just be like, let's do this. Yeah. I would, yeah. That was like my, uh, early year, 30s. What was your, what was your spark in your late 30s and what did that, what was it like? However much you want to say. My spark, I mean, I went through, um, a divorce and I think that, you know, opened up a lot of, shut one door, open another one, big, open door, wow. Windows. Many things opened. And I, I think, um, it was so exciting to be in my body in a new way and to be aroused in a new way. And that is when I wrote slip. So I was sort of like, um, I think being able to experience sexual pleasure as a portal, like where it was like, oh my God, my world is opening to many different like worlds and universes and that like sex can, I think in my 20s when I was like single previously, um, sex was more constricting as a feeling rather than expansive. And so to experience it as expansive and like world building and, um, was just so like, yeah, revolutionary for me. And I wanted to write about it. And I think it all, like, um, I was also interested in, because I shot slip when I was 40. And because I'm also the star of it, it's a very sexually explicit show. And I think there was something and you're directing it and directing it. And that, that combo was really interesting in terms of the male versus female gaze and what sex, what I want sex, what I wanted sex to look like. Can I ask a couple of things? Yes. What was the like, what did the crew look like? It wasn't all women. It wasn't all women. And I also remember, Zoe, a video of you talking about and like clips of in the whatever press piece it was that you were like directing nude. That's a fucking power. Yeah, I mean, I was robed, but I was, I had to be directing nude if I was hysterical because my scene partners, I would be giving them directions sort of like within the scene where I was nude. But like in the, in terms of, um, I don't know what, um, um, women being, uh, just so, you know, honestly, like, uh, how do I say it? So, so violently policed and oppressed. Yeah. It's like, there's no, how do we say that? Just like, how do we say that? You know, it's like, um, there is no reverse racism. There is no reverse sexism. These systems fuck white people over as well. Right. Even if it's emotionally cut them off, they don't realize it besides the actual, yeah, financially, you know, basic human needs cutting you off. And like same, same with men regarding feminism, like we all benefit from it. So there's no reverse, there's no version of a God couldn't do that. Yeah. No shit because Harvey Weinstein fucking exists. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. The millions of Harvey Weinstein's that have existed. Um, so it's just funny, like how you directing nude is kind of the antidote to, you know what I mean? It's like so wild. And like, I will say, um, you know, we had like an intimacy coordinator and, um, I wanted, I wanted to make sure, obviously, that everyone felt super, super safe. Um, the crew was like very important that I could feel safe. Um, because I was like cutting out the middleman. Usually the actor has to feel safe with the director who's directing them and really intimate sex scenes. Um, and so often that's a male director and a female subject slash object, you know, in those, in those circumstances. So I was like, how do I want to feel safe and how do I want to make sure that the crew feels really safe? And it was really, it was fascinating. I will say post was almost more fascinating, like post production because, um, you know, I'm like the editing and you're sitting in the edit and working with editors. Well, my editors were women, but, um, but like, like, um, doing the sound mix. Cause it, it's, we're talking about the levels of the orgasm and it's me and I'm having to do takes of, um, ADR, adding sound later of orgasm. Yes. To match the visual of you coming hysterical with, and like with the men in the room, I think it was, it was like a really, um, transformative experience for me and feeling really safe with those men in that room and them going, like being able to talk about sex with a woman who's not their wife, who's their boss, um, and to do it in a way that just felt really like loving and open and safe. And we were just talking about our work, which was sex, you know, which was like, um, which was obviously simulated sex, but, but like there was just something so beautiful, I think about it, having be a, having it be a co-ed experience. And I have to say, it's also like, uh, like what I'm saying about this system, fucking everybody over, you know, it's like, I'm sure they were totally moved and transformed by that opportunity to talk about sex with you as a piece of art. Yes. And I had had obviously very different experiences. Um, like, and after Band-Aid, I wanted to have many, many women in as department heads. I knew that I was probably never going to be able to do that again because that movie was small and independent and non-union because I was not in the union yet. And the next thing I did, um, after Band-Aid was like, uh, network TV pilot that I wrote and directed. And I went in there being like, so want to harrow women? And they were like, absolutely never, you know, and they were like, that's an HR disaster. Yeah. I was thinking about that too, is that like, they can't, they couldn't. Um, so I was able to hire, you know, mostly, I think, almost entirely female department heads, which was really excited. And when people came for Band-Aid, no, for this TV pilot, that's cool. No, Band-Aid was all, all. Yeah. Yeah. But this where I was like, and I walked on set and I was like, sort of like hunched, like being like, I failed. And everyone who came on set was like, this is crazy. How many women are here? Yeah. And so it was also, and in, um, decision making positions or final decision, totally. Yeah. Um, and that was also eye opening for me to be like, it doesn't also have to be all or nothing. I felt that it had to be all or nothing to sort of really show that it could be. Right. Um, and, and to open up like, and show for yourself too. Yeah. Not some like performance, but really be like, could this be, you know, exactly. Yeah. And like, it's very interesting because in Band-Aid, when we were crewing up, like some female department heads, I would be like, so we're hiring all women and they would be like, but I have my dude that I've worked with for a decade. And that is part of the barrier to entry for women behind the camera is like, and I get it because like everyone wants to succeed. So they're like, yeah, I want to use my dude that knows me and we have a shared language. And I had to be like, you can't, which, which I do think actually all of those women who, who felt that way were then like so excited to see that I think like opportunities for mentorship are also so important for both the mentee and the mentor. That's right. Because the fear that we all have of like hiring someone with less experience, which is what stops, you know, crews, especially in our industry, but I think probably across all industries from diversifying, you know, whether it comes to gender or race or, or anything is like a lack of experience and how do we change that? And it's like, well, we change it by giving opportunities to people with less experience and having faith that they're going to be so hungry for the opportunity. They might actually outshine a person who's been doing it for decades. Love it. Yeah. Okay. Interrupting your regularly scheduled programming with a little costume change because I have a very special announcement. 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So thank you so much to my viewers and listeners for joining me in this very special milestone for the production of It's Open with Elana Glazer and girls, boys, go get that discount. And now back to the show. So Slip came out on Roku, which was also like, it was still like wears the hat because nobody knew how to use Roku, which was part of the issue. But then four months into Slip, and I will say, I had an executive at Roku who believed in the pro project so wholeheartedly, and I had written all seven episodes of Slip in the pandemic. And I handed him all seven episodes and he greenlit me without a single note. So like, God bless this man, Colin Davis. And allowed me to make the show that I wanted to without any compromise. And it was a really wild show to put on television. And then he left Roku right when it came out. And so I didn't really have a champion, but basically four months after its release, they removed it from the platform entirely. And it Why? For a tax write off. Could you own it? I think I will be able to because that would be sick to license it. Oh, I would love that. Yeah, because it's like, it's been a couple years now. But it's been one of the great heartbreaks of my life. And like, it doesn't really leave that heartache when you have birthed something. And I think that, especially that show for me was like, such a child, I don't have physical children, but like, a real art baby that was like, the fact that it can't exist for anyone to see now is so devastating. And it was nominated for two independent spirit awards when it came out. Wow. Wow. Congratulations. Thank you for best new show and best new show and best lead performance. And we were like up there next to like beef and the last of us and all these incredible, like huge shows with money behind them. And by the time we got to the awards, it had been removed from the platform like, Oh, that wasn't enough. And the savings of the tax write off was so minimal. It really like boggles the mind, body and soul. These business people are no good at business. I mean, to watch like the whole HBO, like, and through the, through the, and then now it's like, you know, I'm just like, it is, and through the strike and then, you know, demonizing that we went on strike to set standards for our basic needs. It's so, it's so unbelievable. It's unbelievable. I'm so sorry. That's painful. Yeah. Super. Hello. Yeah. But I'm curious about your queer awakening in proximity actually to slip and pandemic. Like pandemic did turn us gay. Yeah. No, I well, slip was interesting because there is a queer storyline in it. I think slip was like around the time. Yeah. Of my queer awakening, but I was while writing it while writing it. But I will say, I mean, it was kind of, it was kind of after it that it really happened. But I always was very aware of my queerness. And I was raised in this is the thing. Yeah. To me, you know, as somebody who grew up on Long Island and were like pretty much the same age. And I grew up on Long Island being like, I can't wait to get to the city. I can't wait to get to the city. I had this idealized version of city kids and Brooklyn kids. And I would think that you would be doing this move. What? Yes. And I was, you know, whatever. But not this move. Yeah. These, one way and then it took 30 years to go this way. You know, so yeah, I'm curious about how you sort of came to know this about yourself beyond LOL, just exploring. Yeah. I mean, I knew it. I knew it. And my like synagogue, LOL was like very queer. My mom's friends were all like queer. My mom was an academic and was in like, like, there was a lot of like gender theory, like early on in my life. So it's nonsense that I wasn't able. It's not like, and I didn't feel that I was hiding it, but I do remember that my best friend who's also queer now at the time in high school, because I had all these crushes on sort of like definitely transmasks girls, but they weren't yet transmasked, but like very mass presenting girls at the time and boys kind of equally. Like I wasn't like, the boys were crushes in order to like cover up the girl crushes. I was just like, um, yeah, living in a world of fantasy, not acting on any sexual impulses, regardless of gender. So I was like really shy and felt very invisible. I shaved my head. So I was presenting super queer. I shaved my head at 11. Are you an only child? Yes. Wow. Oh my gosh. She said, but by the way, my mom took me to like a Japanese hair artist who used like a tiny pair of scissors and did like the most meticulous shave, but it was not a shave with like baby bangs. Remember like 90s baby bangs? Like, holy, it was, um, see this is some shit that I was just like, so that, yes, you know, going through a deal. Just fantasizing about you getting a Japanese head shave with scissors out in Southern County, deep. Okay. Holy shit. Baby bangs. Baby bangs. I was like dressing in like a lot of like men's leisure wear. Like I was really, I was being misgendered a lot. And so it was, I think there was a part of me that was like exploring something, but I couldn't put a name to it. And when my friend in high school was like, maybe you're gay, cause I was like crushing on this girl named hot Liz, obviously give a name. And she's like, maybe you're gay. And I remember just feeling so offended. Wait, so what do you mean? You were like, she's so cool, right? Or were you like, I think she's hot. I was like, I love her. Like I thought she was hot, which is why it's so crazy to be like, you're gay and me being like, what? Yeah. Like, you know, like on Long Island, everybody was like using slurs, homophobic slurs. So I would like be, I remember like when we were all like changing together and I was like, he, he, he, he, he, you know, and I was like attracted to girls. And I was attracted, I guess more to just like girls like could never be. Yes. Standard. And boys. And, but like it being so far away, it being not even a conversation. And it was just constant F slur that's so gay. You're so gay. And I remember like calling people out. I mean, with my own slurs being like, well, you're this Tyler to defend my all my gay friends. But, you know, it was so far. Yeah. So what a funny thing that you're like, it's right there. It's right there. But the same systems were controlling both of us at the same time. Yeah, it didn't matter. And I was hearing the slurs too, even though I was in Brooklyn. I mean, obviously they were like, yeah, it was crazy. I went to high school. Yeah, deep Brooklyn high school. And they're south. Like Dipmiss Park, Coney Island. Yeah. Yeah. Is that sound? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So you grew up in Park Slope, but you were going south. Yeah, I was going to Coney Island. You can't get more south. But not like Sheepshead Bay or Bensonhurst. No, but a lot of like Sheepshead Bay and Bensonhurst kids were going to school. So, so it was Long Island coded. Do you know what I mean? And we and so there was a lot of homophobia there too. But I walked in freshman year with a shaved head and was immediately like recruited by the LGBT Q club. And I was like, no, no, no, yeah, I could not join that club. So it was like, it was wild. And then I was married to a cis man for many years. And even in our times of like opening our relationship, it never occurred to me. It like literally never occurred to me. It wasn't even something that I felt that I was actively repressing. I was just going for dudes. I just heard the phrase LLL, late in my fleavspian. It's not great. There's so many of us. I know. It's like really sweet. You know what I mean? And I just, I find it just makes the community of women stronger and more connected. Yeah. You know what I mean? Totally. That's cool. And so many like, bless them like, femmes who were like really pulling straight men, you know, like the Gabby Heddon pulling straight men. And the Sophia Bushes 100. I think they're just doing so much. They're doing some heavy lifting at the end of the runway. And they're just like, they flip it. And then they walk the other way. And I'm like, bye-bye. You know, it's, it's stunning. So, um, yeah. So you're just feeling it now. You're just fucking in it. I'm in it. You and your partner. You're so cutie. Thanks. Yeah. We love. I love for it. Probably. Yeah. Like, um, related in some way, deep, deep, deep in the ancestry. Yeah. We love that. That's part of the attraction. Yeah. Probably. Um, yeah, no, it's, it's so great. I mean, the journey, the queer journey is harrowing. You know, it is, we're lying, witch and wardrobeing. Like, you don't know the adventures are endless. And the first queer heartbreak is horrific. I think it's worse than straight and maybe for the LLL is even worse. But I think it is worse than straight heartbreak cause, cause the emotional complexity is different. And the, um, proximity, the proximity and gender, where there's like a bit you can write off in, uh, or like the distance is already built in, in opposite sex relationships. Um, I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. I know. That resonates with me. Yeah. It's, it's interesting. And, and yeah, now my partner is a, uh, a trans man. So I don't know if I'm going back in the closet or sort of where I'm standing. Yeah. And we're just spinning at the end of the runway. It's kind of a death drop and get out and spin. You know what I mean? It's great. Yeah. It's a full color wheel. It is. Yeah. It's a spectrum. Yeah. Um, you know, I think about Gen Z women and I'm like, I want to tell them so many things or something like, do you, do you interface with Gen Z women? Yes. Yeah. Totally. In like through work. Yeah. And, and many of, many of my friends are Gen Z. Um, yeah. Like what do you want to tell them? And do you tell them, or do you like restrain and, and hold off imparting knowledge? I'm really working on curbing unsolicited advice. Okay. So, but it's hard for me, but here is where you can give solicited advice. What I will say is I think part of the reason why I, I didn't come out earlier is because I didn't have as much access to language or models of like the fluidity of the sex and gender spectrum. And so in some ways I'm like, there's this, it's a beautiful time in comparison, you know, um, because of access, but it's also a confounding time to be a woman. You know, and I, why? Well, I think like social media and the algorithms are, the compare and despair and the idea, like the concept of a person being a brand was not, right. Um, that's right. Really the goal. And now regardless of like how pure your artistic intentions are, you do have to look at commerce in a way that I feel like we weren't necessarily looking at, you have to look at like how you are branding yourself. Um, and that is like, just for my brain now as a woman, I'm like, what? You know, um, so I think that's really confusing. And I think that third, fourth wave feminism and sex positivity is confusing. Here's an example. When I was growing up, my mom hated Madonna. Oh my God. Okay. Because her second wave feminism was like, that's so male gazey. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. And I was like, what are you talking about? That woman is in fucking charge. Right. Right. Right. She's like masturbate, foe masturbating on stage. Right. And, and so I think that like dialogue is even more confusing now. Because that at that time, it was like a boomerang. Yes. And now it's like the boomerang is like stuck in a tornado. You know, where it's like, I don't know who's empowered. I don't know if I am. Exactly. You know, yeah. I mean, I feel that I'm working for the man over time a lot of the time. And then other times I'm, I'm kicking it to him. And I don't know which is which because I'm in that tornado, you know, but I, yeah, I guess I'm like, I'm looking at Gen Z. There's different, there's different worlds, right? Like Gen Z queers are, I'm looking up to them. I'm like, teach me brothers. Like I want to know the fountain that you're drinking from. Yes. Gen Z also, the way that they have this early exposure to language about race and gender and sexuality makes them so much fucking less awkward than millennials. We are like, they have you ever considered the identity? It's like so embarrassing. Yeah. How late we came to understanding this stuff. That's true. No, totally. I'm looking up to you, my brothers. They're they are hip to it all in a way that is like just like organic, so organic, like you're saying. And, and I guess I'm speaking to my Gen Z sort of like straight girls who are getting like baby Botox in their 20s or doing like baby GLP ones, you know, micro dosing. And that's where I'm like, oh God, I don't want to shame you, but I also want to encourage you to like not fall prey. I also genuinely want to warn you that we don't know what it leads to. People's faces going fall apart. They falling off the bone. It's meat falling off the bone. We don't know. Yeah. We don't know what to heck. Yeah. And also just saying, just saying, it's I truly, I don't care what people do with their own bodies. Don't tell me what to do with my fucking body. But I do want to say a little plumpness helps. Yes. Gen genuinely, you fall. And it helps you when you age. That's what I'm talking about. People used to, yes, they're doing the opposite of what you want to do. I'm like, you're getting your, I don't have a fucking analogy right now, but I'm like, you're, you're, it's, it's, you're going to want that. You're going to want that. You're going to want that. Yeah. Yeah. You know, like, you're such a productive, generative person as a person into flesh, as a person, you know, who's creating projects and putting them out and output. What do you do? How do you deal with pause and rest? What containers do you create for reflection? That's a beautiful question. I have the same for you. Okay. I'm not great at rest historically. And I think that my, I place a lot of my value in productivity. Yeah. Capitalism. And that is capitalism. And so I am working on that. And I'm working on just trying to do nothing for bits of time, but it's really fucking hard. Yeah. It's really hard. And like, I'm like, I'm really bad at meditating. I'm telling you all the things I'm not doing really bad at meditating. I'm digging it. I'm trying to do a gratitude practice, which is not necessarily like rest, but it is something that I think takes you off the capitalist hamster wheel. Cause you're kind of going like, I, I have what I want. I don't need to be fighting so hard to get somewhere else. That's right. All the time. That's exactly right. Oh, amen. Which is hard. But at least it honestly, you can channel it into a practice rather than be like I'm sitting still productive. No, but it's great. But it is re routing the energy to something. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm trying to like, oh, God. Sure, dude, for fucking sure. It's really hard to, I do so much therapy and I'm really working in therapy on understanding money as a function of the, the society I live in, but not as a genuine value. Yeah. Counter. You know, it is a value counter and it, it, um, I just saw Matthew cook. I think his name is cooked with an E on Instagram. It's just a really cool layout of billionaires and how they're controlling all of our resources, which are finite water and money. These are one is natural resource, one is man made, but they're finite and it's like, we, it's like, it's depraved and disgusting, but we conflate money with human worth when it's really a representation of labor. Yes. It's, it's only a representation. It's not real. Yes. You know, but it's like, it is so hard and such a practice. Like people used to be like, here's a donkey, here's a house. I don't know. Yeah. But you know what I mean? Um, you remember, no, that's historically accurate. Fiddler on the roof when Tedler, Tevia is like, um, is thinking that he's doing a deal for a cow, but it's for his daughter. Yeah. Fucking hysterical. Yeah. Fucking hysterical. But it's like, whatever the fuck people used to trade, like that's, that actually is a true trade. Money is a symbol, but it is so hard to extract ourselves from this. We are the extraction. I know. So it's hard to like get your head around it and it's, it's genuinely, genuinely complex and takes effort to, to understand that. And I, I get it. And I gotta say, like, I'm not extricating myself from the capitalist system. I love to buy things. I, I love to buy clothes. Hell yeah. You a new girl. You a vintage girlie. Mostly new. Yeah. I'm into new, but I also like, no, but I also like vintage. I like, like, I was raised with no money. Like my parents were broke ass artists in Brooklyn, but my mom had like really expensive taste. And so that dichotomy stays, stays with me. And also I think when I'm depressed, I use spending as a crutch. It gives me a dopamine hit. Yep. Yeah. And so I am also like trying to be realistic with myself. I really admire what you're doing. And that is not the work I'm doing in therapy, but what you're doing. What about money? Yes. About money, like about sort of like separating or what, or just like getting clear on how you value it. Yes. I, I grew up in there, like used to be middle class genuinely. And my parents worked, but it was hard and we would get help from my grandparents. And they had this, um, they had this almost fear of money. The like, I think of it as like the fear of God, you know, this fear that I like, dude, I started working when I was nine. I was just like, mothers help helping. Oh my God. And I like developed so early. I looked like I was like 14, you know what I mean? So I was like, I remember watching twins with a drunk mom upstairs. I was like, I'm working for this cash. I'm nine years old. Like I was so, so, um, just focused on like saving my making and saving money and not having that anxiety, anxiety because I have enough fucking anxiety to begin with. Um, so yeah, it's out of, it's out of relieving myself of that anxiety and not attaching, you know, it's like, I can't spend, um, that central nervous system energy on this, you know, it's something to go out and be made, you know, rather than like something bestowed upon, it's not bestowed upon us. Some people are born rich, right? Right. You know what I mean? So it's like, it's just like this, it's hard. It's, it's very upsetting because, you know, we're in positions where we have our basic needs met. We have opportunity as women, you know, you know, whatever. It's like, um, you know, so it's even just upsetting to be like, some people are, it's, this system is designed to give most people nothing and steal from people and get them in sick, stuck ruts that are against any control that they have. It's like, it's just, um, it's, uh, and, and, you know, I, I look too much outside at the world and, you know, bleed for it. I have, I try to work on like containing myself in the confines of my own, confines of my own actual lived experience, but it's, it's really upsetting. The sort of like, um, uh, misogyny capitalist pipeline is so apparent and it's that like scarcity mindset that like, that's right, is, is part and parcel with capitalism. Like you must make more to live, but now it's being like, or I guess it's always been co-opted by the patriarchy, but now it's like a whole new version of like in order, like to succeed, these are the edicts that you must live by and it means oppressing and objectifying women. The manosphere is like a perfect example of the way that the patriarchy oppresses men because all these men are so clearly in so much pain because of the patriarchy. That's exactly right. And then they're sort of like weaponizing it from this complete place of desperation because what else do they do? Um, and so many of them, at least this documentary shout out, I have nothing to do with it. Um, we're raised without fathers, you know? And so like there's already, there are victims of this oppressive system. Here's, here's where I'm like, after watching this documentary and really like, uh, unfortunately learning more about the manosphere, but I think it's important too because it's like really, it's huge. Um, they're all like subscribing to like the matrix. They use the matrix, like the actual movie and like red pilling directed by two trans women. Right. And a trans allegory and red pilling, which is what all these men who are so transphobic and and homophobic are like espousing was really about like, if you see the illusion of gender, you cannot unsee it. And they're like, that's, they don't even, they can't even see that this is the thing that they're like, well, they just haven't, they don't know, they don't know enough about the movie that they're referencing, you know? Oh my God. But I've just been really like spinning on it because I'm like, there's so much to unpack here. Um, the anti transness of this moment is so, whether it's anti trans femmes or anti trans mask, it's so anti trans, it's so anti women. Because the female spirit is about fluidity and flexibility and it's community and it's so self punishing because we all have both spirits in us. It is just so fucking obvious that it's this, that anti trans is a device to disempower everybody. I mean, I find it to be so obvious. Totally. I hate to be honest. I'm honestly embarrassed about being an optimistic person. But I honest, I really believe that this is, um, I believe that like, um, this is just a disgusting, ugly moment that we're pushing through. You know, you, you should, you shit when you give birth, you shit when you die. Yep. And I really think that like, we're just in the shitting ourselves. Dying. Yeah. Yeah. And giving birth to a new world. Like I hate to give these, these men the benefit of the doubt, but it's, it's the men on top, just like the billionaires. It's the men at the top. All the while they're like topping everybody else. And it's like, you're just like, they're gayer than you realize. Yeah. Um, you know, it's, I don't, I really don't believe it's like these victims. I mean, it's, they have free will like grow the fuck up. But it's like, it's just sad and they're being like abused. But I do think a lot of them, which I think is happening politically too, are going to extract themselves from the system and be like, Oh, I was in a cult. You know, God, I hope so. I like think so just because I'm like, how could you not? I know, I know, I hope. But the, um, the rewiring is, it takes time. Yeah. Yeah. Um, what are you working on right now that you want people to know about? Um, I'm coming out in a TV show on peacock that I'm acting in, but it is really fun. It's called The Miniature Wife. Yes. I'm looking forward to this. Yeah. I mean, it is about a woman who's shrunk by her husband. So it's thematically sort of appropriate. Yeah. Um, great. But, um, but it's really fun and it's also fun to just act for me. Cause it's like nice to take off the other hands. Yeah. Nice. Um, and then I'm like developing some things that I'm really excited about. I'm making a movie with Carol Burnett, which is, Oh my God. That's incredible. Congratulations. Thank you. So that's been like just, that's in this really dark time, there are these moments of just absolute brightness, especially someone like her who's like 92 and has lived through, I like to talk to people who have lived through so much to be like, Oh, you're going to be good. Yeah. Yeah. And what did she say? Oh, well, she's so, I mean, she's so optimistic and so great. Um, good. Just as a, as a human being, but I mean, talk about like a woman in comedy at a time where like, who brother, but she, she changed the game. Yeah. That's amazing. Zoe. Congratulations. Thanks. What's one thing you're going to do for your pleasure this weekend? Yeah, that's better. That is really good. And I do think that, you know, in these moments, like pleasure seeking is a revolutionary act. Yep. Agreed. And, um, and I'm actually, I have not been prioritizing pleasure. So this is a really important time to swing it back. End of the runway. Hair flip. Yep. Um, what am I going to do this weekend? Okay. I'm going to, listen, I'm going to try and find a dance party. Fuck. Yeah. That's what I'm talking about. It's always your job. I think that's what we got to do. Yeah. You're in New York. I'm in LA. In LA, you're going to find a dance party. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Rock on. Thank you so much for coming in today. This is so fun. This has been a star picks production. Okay. And I want to thank my creative producer is David Brooklyn, Annika Carlson, Madeline Kim, Kelsey Kiley, Glenis Mahar. I want to thank the people who made this episode look and sound so sweet, so good. Nicole Moppen, Lexa Krebs and Kevin Deming. I want to thank Remo Ventura for making this beautiful graphics and opening musical staying in the band Don Her, who is just finally bursting out on the scene publicly because one of the three members is Elliot Glazer, my brother. The music is so fucking good. And this is this after music is by Don Her. I'll say it again, it's been a star breaks production and damn, I just had such a fucking good time. Oh, and this is the thing I always forget to say. If you like this show, like and subscribe. It truly makes a difference. And also guess what? I'm going on tour. I'm, I don't know when the fuck this is coming out, but I am on a standup tour. So check out AlanaGlazer.com for tickets when I'll be in a city near you. To be honest, just the first leg has been announced May through August and I'll be announcing more dates this year. So don't get pissed at me if I'm not in your city. I'll be there likely, hopefully. Anyway, okay, I'm gonna say it. God bless you. Love you. Bye.