The Hidden UFO Program Is Real - Here’s How It Works! (ft. UAPGerb)

Jonathan Wagant, he is told at one point that there's a downed friendly or forehand plane, no big deal. After a combination of driving and trekking they encounter a clearing. There's an enormous egg-shaped, teardrop-shaped craft embedded in the cliff face. And there seem to be a hatch open with an arm hanging out with four fingers. It was dripping, the serpent like this liquid, it was everywhere, it was weird, it was a clump with a screen color. He feels like a bean is communicating to him and his mind, telling him not to be scared but also asking for help. They were not going to harm me. That was basically that everything was going to be alright, just helping me get the subs get out. There's one common thread I found and each of these three people had the same thing happen that they kind of answered independently. They're immediately intercepted by a between eight and 12 operators in all black, no insignia, no name tags, held at gunpoint. All three of these men directly after their encounters were given what they were told were anthrax vaccine boosters. Anthrax boosters. Yeah, what's so weird. You're one of the few people who puts names, dates, programs, acronyms to the actual UFO legacy program, you're famous for your acronyms. Conus and Oconus outside Conus, Continental United States Intelligence surveillance were Conus and platforms ISR, OICI and yes, FFRDC, federally funded research and development centers. Wow. Correct. You have somebody like Dick Cheney, maybe at the top. Yeah. And then you have these six different kind of high up intelligence organizations and DOD stuff. And DOD stuff. Yeah. Okay. So you have DOD plus intelligence organizations. Yeah. Do you know the first director of OGA, the office of Global Access? The Doug Wolf. This is Doug Wolf. Do you know Doug Wolf spent 16 years in the NRO? He was the executive assistant to the director of the National Reconnaissance Office. Wow. He was indeed CIA, DST Deputy Director. He indeed started the OGA. Wow. And indeed he was the DDNI AT&F, the Deputy Director for National Intelligence for Acquisition Technology and Facility. Wow. The best director oversight over NRO acquisition. Crazy. It's obviously Bob Lazar, you know, his briefed on project Looking Glass. Yeah. Which is like the manipulation of timelines. You have Tim Taylor. He kind of thinks of himself as like a adjustment bureau timeline management person. This sphere was basically used to I guess like a coagulate time onto the Planck scale looking at time as as frames of Planck scale and combined with like the many worlds interpretation of quantum physics to like view parallel timelines. I'm here with Sammy UAP Gurb who in my estimation is the most hardcore UFO researcher today. And I think in a world where kind of a lot of people like to talk in these sort of really vague generalities, it's always everything is everything. A lot of mushy brain thinking where A is true and B is true, but somehow A and B are mutually exclusive. Nothing really makes sense, you know, except everything kind of wholeheartedly. You are one of the few people who tries to put names, dates, programs, you know, acronyms to the actual UFO legacy program. You're famous for your acronyms. And you have a real map that you're kind of basically like illustrating through every single episode of what is actually happening in the concrete UFO reverse engineering program. So I'm excited to get into all of that with you today. Well, thanks for having me on Jesse. This is the kind of second big program we've done. And a while ago, I think it was to begin into the year. I had a super small channel you had me on really brought some exposure to kind of my platform. So I'm super grateful to that. I appreciate you kind of taking a chance to have me on then. We had a great conversation then. We'll have an even better conversation today. Because people who've watched my channel know that what I like to do is legacy programs, you know, Chris Ramsey's interested in the experiencer. You're interested in more physics, physics based science. I like legacy programs. I like acronyms. I like really boring program fundings such. So I kind of focus on UFO legacy programs, crash retrieval, basically in a sense, programs to retrieve, store, exploit, and derive technologies of nonhuman origin. The approach I like to take is really trying to iron out specifics and be as specific as possible. I've been super interested in the subject since I was a little kid. But, you know, we talked about this yesterday. It seemed to me and it just like a lot of people approach this topic. Like there was always the amorphous they of running UFO reverse engineering programs, the big US government, the big they. And it wasn't until David Grush spoke in 2023 that something clicked in my head. And I thought, well, I can really start attributing names to these programs. People have worked in the programs where these programs might take place. Exact mechanisms, how these programs might be funded, exact contractors, exact institutions that might be working on them. So I love hyper-specific. And if we want to talk hyper-specific today, we can do just that. Let's do it. Because I think a lot of people are probably extremely confused at the org chart, you know, of the actual UFO legacy program. I think the debrief published something. I want to say at the end of last year around the White House having to do with some of these programs, you hear that the White House sometimes has to do with some of the programs. And then simultaneously, you hear that the president doesn't have a need to know and doesn't know anything about the program. So you hear these things all the time that are so hand-wavy about how this stuff works. And I think you're the only person who's actually mapping it out. What is the org structure of the UFO legacy program? So I'm trying to map it out. I think at the end of the day, this is probably more complicated than any of us can guess because there's 90, 80, 90 years at least of these programs being spun up out of the Manhattan Project, out of the Atomic Energy Commission, out of probably initially the executive branch and the National Security Council. But the way I really like to look at UFO legacy programs, programs to retrieve, store, exploit and derive technical vehicles of unknown origin is simplistic terms like a pyramid. The head of the pyramid is the polar of the strings. That's probably a name we don't know. Or it's probably somebody like the late Dick Cheney. I think that that's probably highly accurate. That what did Walter Kern say that Dave Grush told him that Dick Cheney was the head of the UFO pyramid for quite a while. That's highly likely, probably true. The closest person we got that I was aware of was unfortunately now deceased vice president Dick Cheney, Darth Vader himself, not shocking that he was involved in this. Essentially when he left in 2009, that was the last time that these activities really had central leadership. Now below that, there seems to be UFO legacy program administrators. These administrators are likely seem to stem from the big six intelligence agencies. Not big five. The National Security Agency, NSA, DIA, CIA, NRO, and NGA. There's not five. There's six. There's the neuro, the National Underwater Reconnaissance Office, which was established in 1969 and still has not been disclosed to this day. So directorates within those intelligence agencies, for example, the CIA's directorate of science and technology seems to be a legacy program administrator. Then conversely on the same side, other side of that coin, DOD agencies. This could be the Edwards 412 test wing. This could be Army Test and Evaluation command. This could be the Office of Naval Intelligence, the Office of Naval Research. Those seem to be the UFO legacy program administrators. Now in most of discussion about legacy programs, this is perpetuated in most mainstream discussion of the topic. It's, okay, the United States government, DOD, and intelligence community, and then contractors, the Lockheed Martin, the North of Grimmins, the Batelle Memorial Institutes. I think that's incorrect. I think that's very incorrect. I think there's an intermediary step between that. This is below the legacy program admins and above the defense industrial base contractors, the prime contractors. That is, people who watch my channel will probably laugh at me saying this because I talk about it nonstop, at FFRDC, federally funded research and development centers. These are government-owned contractor-operated institutions that are subject matter experts for all sorts of programs that the United States government, DOD, and IC can't handle themselves. So FFRDC's examples here would be the Miter Corporation, numerous institutions run by Batelle Memorial Institute, San Dia, Lawrence Livermore Oak Ridge, Department of Energy, National Nuclear Security Administration, National Labs. The reason why FFRDC's, I think, are higher on the totem pole, if so to speak, than contractors is because FFRDC's are inherently government-owned contractor-operated. So these institutions can serve as subject matter experts for exotic technology programs, but elements of the Department of Defense or Intelligence Community can still maintain access control over materials, information, personnel, etc. So the FFRDC can serve as an R&D expert and subject matter expert and be a program admin for the defense industrial-based contractors. So that's how the USG, the United States government, and its elements of legacy programs can still retain control over these programs. People talk about, oh, the programs have run away in Locking Martin and Northrop Creme, and I don't think that's correct. People will say that these programs have no oversight. No, I think there's a very structured oversight to these programs. It's just not traditional oversight channels. And then the bottom of this pyramid is the defense industrial-based prime contractors, the Locking Martin's, the Northrop Creme and what Northrop aid up BDM, TRW, Teladine Ryan, Raytheon, Raytheon, especially with the US Army, and so forth. The mortar that holds this pyramid together would be the defense industrial base and funding mechanisms. This would be stuff like major range and test facility bases or MRTFBs, which are basically large DOD ranges across the continental United States. I believe there are 26 such agencies. They're spread across the US Army, US Navy, US Air Force, and defense agency. Examples here include the Nevada Test and Training Range. That houses Area 51, that houses allegedly S4, that houses the Tonipa Test Range, all sorts of weird little San Dia run sites, the numbered areas. This includes the Utah Test and Training Range, the West Desert Test Center. Both of those are situated on Dugway Proving Ground. Edwards 412 Test Wing, out of Edwards Air Force Base, China Lake, Puttuxent River, and so forth. And funding mechanisms, I think the best way to look at this is what David Grush has spoken about. And this would essentially be misappropriation of funds, right? IRAD, independent research and development, which is a very creative system that defense industrial base contractors can take upon projects that they consider to be in the interest of national security and build the DOD for it. This includes carryover funds, which basically budget left over at the end of a fiscal year that's not reported, that's then utilized by the agency. And we can talk about this more, but in 1994, 1995, the National Reconnaissance Office, the NRO, which runs America's spy satellites, an immense and significant primarily, that David Grush worked for as well as the NGA got busted in huge trouble. They underwent a Senate and GAO audits for enormous misappropriation funds, specifically carryover funds back in 1994, 1995, in the realm of $3.2 billion or so. And remember, the NRO was only to classified in 1992. This could also be overcharging of parts. There's a really interesting example of this back in the 80s and 90s of the Navy. It'd be things like things like ash trays on military planes that were overcharged by thousands of dollars, profit margins of like 60 to 80% on submarines. So a socket wrench is for fighter jets, priced like 15,000% over what they should be worth and so forth. And then finally, if we're thinking about this pyramid as like the old Egyptian pyramids, the pyramids were once encased in limestone, to protect the pyramids from the elements and so forth. Well, that limestone casing for this UFO legacy program pyramid, this would be program protection strategies. This would be the DARPA Defense Advanced Research Project Agency Security and Intelligence Directorate Sid, which is responsible for program protection for some of the United States' most classified special access programs. DARPA said this is the boogie man. This would also be Department of Energy Intelligence, Department of Energy Office of Intelligence and Counterintelligence OICI. And yes, the DOE has its own intelligence agency. This would be black budget program structure like SAPS, special access programs, usaps, unacknowledged special access programs are in the intelligence community CAHPS controlled access program, car about contracts with defense industrial prime contractors. For their examples of program protection strategy would be complex syops, disinformation, disinformation campaigns, national security council programs, Sean Kirkpatrick, arrow, Rick Dodie, stuff like that. So in like I think that took like 10 minutes, but in a super broad term, that is how I view the structure of legacy programs, a very complex pyramid. And again, it's probably far more complex than we can even begin to to understand, but that is how I look and start to break down the structure of programs. Well, I think a lot of people are probably thinking with complexity you get you end up with leaks and you end up with like coordination issues. And I think that speaks to in the end, you know, my response to that with with a lot of people is like, well, there have been a ton of leaks and you have people like Stephen Greer. And in some ways, to me, you're like the cooler air to Stephen Greer, where you're like a better place, I think for a lot of these whistleblowers to go and get their stories out. And I mean, all this stuff is hidden in plain sight. Yes, it's all it's all out there. You know, I've broken people on my show, you've broken a lot of people. And you know, these aren't just campfire stories like they really add up and in aggregate, you have to like slap, you know, pretty high confidence level, especially when all the details totally comport. Yeah. I mean, as far as leaks go, there are just numerous, including credited and credible individuals. You know, we talked about the Edwards 412th test swing back there as a major range and test facility base kind of like the mortar that sticks together these legacy programs. Well, I'm familiar with the ex Air Force Lieutenant Colonel out there who claims to have run a program that was focused on testing alien reproduction vehicles and derivative technology. This guy was an electronics warfare group to test group director. He claimed to serve as the intermediary between test pilots on the ARV and contractors and scientists and so forth. And this was at Edwards 412th test division 412th test swing. Yeah, test. The Edwards 412th test wing also operates. They're also the manned people at area 51. Okay, so the Edwards 412th test wing also has a big presence at the NTTR and Nevada Test and Trading Range and the Tonipa test range. Wow. And so and this this lieutenant colonel from the Air Force, what is he saying about like the test so for for the audience, you know, if you're not aware, ARV is alien reproduction vehicle, which is basically a reverse engineered UFO maybe with some, you know, human text like on to make it workable. And so what is he saying about these ARVs? Are they are they similar to the mark McCannlish story where it looks like human kind of older tech retrofitted on super advanced alien tech or what is it? It seems like a more advanced platform. This guy has gone pretty quiet because I think he was was threatened like many people are in this topic, but his testimony mainly takes place between 2000 1998 when the Nevada Test and Trading Range was renamed from the 98th Range Wing and about 2007 2008. So these were many times triangular airframes, saucer shaped airframes, nothing too specific about that, but that's very interesting. The subject of alien reproduction vehicles, I've started to transition more to the usage of the term derivative technology because I think that ARV isn't the end all be all of what we're trying to do with an exploit from exotic non-human technologies. I think I think there are instances in which even just simple technologies are plucked off of exotic vehicles and tried to be adapted to prosaic us airframes. Yeah, the classic example I like kind of run into and I go back and forth on it is like I think towns and brown figured out like you know real anti-gravity or whatever in the human kind of terrestrial context with these kind of capacitor experiments. But the thing he used to love to use was a bismuth because it was a high-k dielectric so it created more thrust. And then Gary Nolan from Jacques Valle has these magnesium bismuths parts that he thinks came from Roswell. And so you have what looks what appears to be something from kind of you know otherworldly or you know NHI you know alien provenance actually helping in like an anti-gravity experiment that we know is conducted in multiple contexts in 1950s. So it's really crazy. I think one of the big ones one of the biggest sought-after capabilities that has probably been harnessed is electrooptic cloaking signature management for us airframes. I think to Dylan Borland and he's talking about the triangle he saw over Langley. You remember that he's talking about how and the exterior of this triangle there seemed to be this lava-esque flow. Yes. The craft itself was this black metallic flake paint but on top of the craft was this gold lava plasma, some type of fluid going over and around the craft. I'm under this for about two to three minutes and then the center light flashes two to three times. No sound immediately shoots up to commercial jet level minimum in my opinion and I immediately feel static electricity all over my body and then I smell the smell of after a thunderstorm or lightning storm that really strong summer thunderstorm smell. It's up to flight level. I'm trying to get my phone reset and I can only see the center light at this point. If I didn't actually see it take off I would have thought it was a star. And it seemed like the triangle appeared around a light almost like it was using signature management capabilities. Now Dylan Borland, he said that I think he inferred he doesn't think the vehicle was human but because of what he he learned after after having some exposure into legacy programs. I still maintain that the triangles are likely human airframes at least most of them. And electrooptic cloaking is a is a very sought after capability. There have been instances in the early 2000s in which specifically the army was interested in adapting electrooptic cloaking to next generation combat vehicle. Think of an M1 Abrams tank with a cloaking device on it. But that makes sense right. What makes you think the electrooptic cloaking came from non-human technology. Witness testimony. Interesting. Witness testimony. But that that may which witness testimony. He doesn't want to be. Yeah sure sure. But like can you speak high level to his. Yeah very high. Somebody that I would trust with my life. Okay. But that makes sense right. Like what would be a sought after capability if some of these UFOs exhibit some of the five or six observables including low observability and some of these employ electrooptic cloaking that'd be a very sought after capability. I mean what could be more valuable than our aerial platforms or our intelligence surveillance reconnaissance platforms ISR airframes that can literally go invisible and gather intelligence a hundred feet away from from a target over denied airspace. What does this witness say anything that you can relay as far as how exactly you know NHI derived. Oh he doesn't know he doesn't. Okay. There was just a there's vehicles that employed cloaking systems that there were facets of the army that was trying to adapt this to US vehicles. So that's that's kind of one of the reasons I started to use derivative technology. I love the Mark McCandlish story which I do believe that is a legitimate story of the flux liner and basically a copycat vehicle. Basically the sports model that Bob talks about being basically an extraterrestrial vehicle we're trying to figure out and drive. So I like using the term extrater I mean sorry derivative technology because I don't think in every single case every single facet of legacy program is specifically trying to create ARV or just create copycat vehicles. I think there are times where technologies are bridged or adapted to US airframes. And you think there is a kind of majestic 12 equivalent today. So the majestic 12 is this elite military intelligence scientific unit created under Truman and Eisenhower. Do you think that that exists today and do you think like you mentioned Dick Cheney so Walter Kern is actually buddy of mine and and you know also knows David Grush and he came out and he was like I expected the head of the UFO legacy program to be like a Templar in Europe or something a night of night of Malta but in fact or Rosacrucian whatever but in fact it's it was just Dick Cheney you know all along is um so like do you think there's a majestic 12 do you think somebody like a Dick Cheney it was in the modern day equivalent of the majestic deal. I think Dick Cheney uh absolutely was I mean he's passed now I think he was the head of some facets of UFO programs for a while as far as majestic 12 it's so complicated with all the documents I'm of the mind a group called match 12 did certainly exist and then with the majestic documents I think there's some legitimate documents some passage material documents and then some obvious hoaxes. Yep. I'm particularly fond of the Eisenhower briefing document um you know the document that apparently briefed presidential incumbent Dwight D. Eisenhower upon the majestic 12's creation. There's interesting details that line up with James V. Forrestall meeting with um with President Truman at the same time that the MJ 12 was allegedly set up same with Walter B. Smith being read into the MJ 12 after James Forrestall was thrown out of a naval hospital window and apparently Walter being Smith taking his replacement in match 12 and actual meetings with Truman on that exact date as well as the interplanetary phenomenon unit documents that were I think a released in 1994 1995 to Tim Cooper from a pseudonym Thomas Cantwell. Yep. Those are interesting the I. P. U. Docs specifically there. The I. P. U. was kind of discovered through FOIA requests in 1986 1987 by researchers such as William Steinman according to FOIA I. P. U. the interplanetary phenomenon unit was an in-house army unit only existing through institutional memory. There are people like Kevin Randall that kind of propose some debunks like the I. P. U. was like an internal processing unit for the mailroom of the army. I do know who Steinman FOIA like which government agency let out that the I. P. U. existed. It was Army counterintelligence Army C. I. P. U. Yeah. I mean that's pretty interesting. Right. There's saying this thing exists but it only exists in institutional memory. All the records were wiped because apparently this was held under like a J2 or something at the time. Interesting. What's interesting I kind of recently went through the I. P. U. Docs specifically related to San D. U. Because we can we should and can't talk specifically probably about what institutions, what people, what places are probably engaged in the programs but the I. P. U. Doc the field report or the I. P. U. report stated like July 1947 in this basically details allegedly how the Roswell retrieval incident went down. And the document talks about a special engineering detachment a said S. E. D. which was like a Manhattan project engineering detachment and stuff being sent out to the Roswell wreckage led by one Colonel Housebrook of the Armed Forces Special Weapons Project AFS W. P. Basically to attend to the wreckage and so forth the AFS W. P. is very interesting. It was it was started one half by James Forrestall and by another individual. The AFS W. P. has gone through a series of evolutions and today is known as the Defense Threat Reduction Agency or DITRA. DITRA is what Dylan Borland had just said on the weaponized podcast housed old atomic energy commission records that stated that UFOs were of extraterrestrial origin. The AFS W. P. was established in 1947 at San Dia base in Albuquerque, New Mexico. Right at the same time when Los Alamos Z division which was kind of their weapon ordinance arm established operations at San Dia base. So San Dia National Lab which is a Department of Energy NNSA National Lab can kind of trace their roots back to Los Alamos Z division at San Dia base. So it's interesting that this AFS W. P. and San Dia kind of started and evolved around the same time. So the I. P. you docs are a really interesting thing that I think deserve a lot of attention from the majestic documents. That's fascinating. Doesn't Timothy Cooper those specifically doubt like the majestic 12 stuff most didn't he say like I think these documents are bullshit either. Yeah yeah and a lot of people do and of course how could you not when you have guys like Rick Dodie and Bill Moore kind of involved when at a move on conference Bill Moore basically says hey I was instructed to so disinformation into the community. That's why like if you're going to talk about the majestic documents it can never be hey this is evidence or kind of verification for playing my mix point or something. It should be the majestic document should be used as an auxiliary. If you're talking about a subject and already have a strong thesis or strong argument be like hey well this is pretty interesting. These majestic documents talk about this but you can't rely on it too heavy because you know there's probably a lot of pass and material like the Psalm 101 that Tim Phillips and arrow have been using behind the scenes to talk about. Yeah yeah you know that no I didn't Tim Phillips went on the event horizon podcast and talked about that arrow found tell the audience to Tim Phillips is oh Tim Phillips is the very disgraced ex deputy director of arrow after Sean Kirkpatrick turned coat and ran to Oak Ridge National Laboratories or NL which is another DOE NNSA National Laboratory which weirdly deleted his job posting. Tim Phillips took over as at arrow started immediately it lashing out to Dave Grasch on LinkedIn. Do you remember that and then he was let go from arrow for being a bit of a wild card but he started doing podcasts around similar to what Sean Kirkpatrick did and would tell specifically like the event horizon podcast during his 10 year at arrow they found like this this manual which talks about like packaging and unpackaging debris and craft and bodies from an extraterrestrial vehicle crash and how this thing was like chock full of diagrams and all this stuff and then he would kind of change his story whether he was on air or off air details of this document. Of course this is the Psalm 101 and off air to various people Sean Kirkpatrick made similar comments about the document so it's weird that arrow specifically is is pushing that yeah yeah it is weird but you find all these sort of crazy connections with Kirkpatrick in his past the DOE and goodness it's just kind of crazy okay so I want to rehash this for the audience just throughout a lot of names and acronyms so you have somebody like Dick Cheney maybe at the top yeah and then you have the six different kind of high up intelligence organizations and DOD stuff yeah okay so you have DOD plus intelligence organizations yeah and then below that you have the FFFRD C's and then below that you have the contract different industrial base and so it's like when Jake Barbara comes out and he says I'm the fingertips or whatever like it's because he's working at you know he says you know you could pick your two and I think Danny Shianne accused him of being at Northrop so maybe we could go whatever she says I don't know yeah yeah yeah can you say anything about the companies that you worked for in the context of these UFO crash retrieval look man if you took two guesses you'd get both of them right on the first try there you go but like he's Barbara is doing kind of the just tip of the spear you know job and he's not given the full context and then the FFRD C's have a little bit more context some insulation as far as federal funding and then above that the intelligence organizations and then above that you have like what cabinet level people like probably like do you have a sense of like who the equivalent of Dick Cheney is now I don't know but if I had to guess it'd be somebody with a naval background and intelligence community background interesting it seems like naval programs have been tip of the spear for a long time and deal with a lot of really sensitive stuff because they also deal with a subject of us oh yeah and that's sort of transmittual capability to travel underwater undetected and and their hidden intelligence agency the Neuro seems very high priority so I would imagine this is somebody with a joint naval and intelligence community background hmm makes sense yeah Harold Malmgren kept emphasizing that the Office of Naval Intelligence knew way more than meets the eye just details are controlled by naval intelligence it's the oldest intelligence agency in the US in the 1890s and if that was like you know at his time you know 60s and 70s yeah you would think that there would be this three line between then and now you obviously have you know rumors of Bobby Rayanman you know being sort of involved you know with this stuff as well and so maybe he would be somebody at the Cheney level do you anticipate that any of the recovered vehicles would ever be become available for technological research outside of the military surface I can't honestly don't know 10 years ago the answer would have been no whether it's time to evolve they're beginning to come open on it is a possibility let's actually go through a couple of those like below Cheney kind of at the tip of the spear for the administrator level yeah I think a lot of individuals who have spearheaded or spearheading or have high level exposure to UFO legacy programs yeah have extensive backgrounds in the NRO so I have a couple documents here maybe we can go through a couple of these these are just kind of people that I'd love to talk about cool so for the NRO you have maybe we could start with Bobby Rayanman yeah Bobby Rayanman when he talked spoke to Bob Eschler in 1989 1988 he referred NASA mission specialist Bob Eschler to Sumner Shapiro a director of Naval Intelligence as well as our Everett or our Everett Evans Heineman his naming conventions a little weird Heineman was the NRO program B director from 1982 to 1989 NRO program B was essentially a consolidation of reconnaissance activities between the NRO and CIA's directorate of science and technology and the ground element of NRO program B was established at Pine Gap Australia I know Pine Gap is super spooky but they call it Australia's area 51 right and Bobby Rayanman basically said a to Eschler if you want to know about crash retrieval programs and recovered technical vehicles go talk to Heineman other interesting people with high level connections to the NRO include Donald Kerr Donald Kerr was mentioned in Oki Shannon's 1985 advanced theoretical physics working group documents this was a physics group held at BDM International in 1985 at their McLean facility super super super interesting thing that apparently like John Alexander spoke at double-bind was involved with all this stuff and I'll put uh yeah in Oki Shannon's notes it's like ask Don Kerr for funding when talking about like UFO reverse engineering programs bro Donald Kerr was of course high level position in the NRO he was director of EGNG he was director of Los Alamos director of SAIC deputy director of the CIA's directorate of science and technology so there's this specific weird there's this really specific weird kind of pairing relationship between the NRO and CIA DSNT yeah and with that CISC IADSNT back in 2003 the CIS CIA directorate of science and technology which maybe we'll describe directorates a little bit so I said the NRO had a program B at Pine Gap early days of the NRO it had program ABC and D at a time in the 90s or so this was reorganized into directorates just kind of subgroups under under the NRO under the CIA so I think a lot of UFO legacy programs are stuffed within these directorates and to speak about the NRO in the CIA's directorate of science technology there's a lot of really weird really weird crossovers there so I think it's important to look at individuals with connections to NRO CIA DSNT yeah two high level almost cabinet positions within the United States government and the MIDER corporation which is an FFRDC yeah there's a very tangled web between NRO DSNT MIDER and then two offices within the United States government I'd like to talk about a little bit this would be the office of the undersecretary of defense for acquisition and sustainment OSUD A&S this has previously gone through numerous naming conventions as the office of the undersecretary for defense for acquisition renamed into the office of the undersecretary of defense for acquisition and technology then renamed to the office of the undersecretary for defense for acquisition technology and logistics finally to its naming convention today for acquisition and sustainment the outstats acquisition and technology is the office kind of named in the Wilson Davis notes as holding kind of records to special carve out holdover programs that housed kind of direct access to legacy programs that flag officer Thomas Wilson allegedly started to look through where he found the watch committee high level gatekeepers for UFO legacy programs one of the individuals he spoke about who was kind of director of the outstatt at that time and permanent sapox special access program oversight committee member was mr. Paul Kaminsky Paul Kaminsky is an individual that I think would be interesting to look at a little more in regards to UFO legacy programs he was of course in the outstatt and he was of course on the board of trustee for the miter corporation now and so that the outstatt that's named all throughout the Wilson Davis notes that is a department of defense position its counter position in the intelligence community is called the DDNI AT&F the deputy director for national intelligence for acquisition technology and facilities so the outstatt are now noticed today undersecretive defense for acquisition and sustainment and this DDNI are two sides of the same coin these two offices according to the GAO they they have oversight over NRO program acquisitions okay interesting so that DDNI AT&F is is rather interesting on one hand you have Paul Kaminsky who was outstatt and miter on the other hand you have somebody like dawn myrix right here who is miter and DDNI AT&F with a long agency background long very weird agency background former deputy director of the CIA for science and technology and we know a couple of you know connections there is Glenn Gaffney obviously director of science and technology for the CIA are any of you willing to name specific gatekeepers within the root cell of the UAP SAP federation I have a name for you go ahead Glenn Gaffney CIA Glenn Gaffney CIA now you have all this congressional testimony that he specifically you know blocked this you know moving of exotic you know non-human origin technology that was under lock-eed that was supposed to go to big low aerospace in 2008 and Glenn Gaffney apparently to this crazy and you can think the the arrow historical report volume one for talking that out 2008 seems there was a first attempt that was blocked by James Clapper second event was the cone of blue failed peace rapper so James Clapper blocked that's what the arrow historical report volume one says well that's interesting is James Clapper in the age of disclosure did movie so what's up with that I don't know I don't know why general Clapper the former DNI in the documentary I certainly applaud him for at least speaking out in general he goes on I believe I've only seen clips of age of disclosure not the whole thing where there was a program when he was the director national intelligence where they were tracking these vehicles over area 51 of course the famed classified test location and I'm a little disappointed as a fellow air force officer and certainly general Clapper rose to the ranks as three star general that's all he said in the documentary that that was a program he was aware of in fact without being inappropriate I will say that general Clapper was well aware of the crash retrieval issue manage the crash retrieval issue and when he was the DNI USDIDI director he placed people in critical roles to manage this issue both publicly and I'll just say not non publicly as well and I'll allow the audience to still what I'm saying at the at the risk of being inappropriate or going too far with my discussion the director of national intelligence James Clapper calls me Mike I need you to go through all of it I need the team to go through all of NSA's holding all of its files and I need everything that you have on UFOs and I'm like what sir you want me to do a review of our databases on UFOs you see the CIA DSNT according to Conan blue has had direct involvement in blocking UFO legacy programs recall the excellent reporting of Christopher Sharp UK journalist yeah he broke a great story about the CIA's office of global access which was created under the DSNT in the year 2003 that is basically tasked with a foreign UFO crash retrievals this is a logistics agency this is a combat support agency so you know let's just say in Honduras an egg-shaped craft goes down the CIA OGA would be responsible for getting a you know JSOC tier one of Jason assets probably the Department of Energy nuclear emergency support team and other assets down to retrieve the craft do you know the first director of OGA the office of global access a Doug Wolf this is Doug Wolf do you know Doug Wolf additionally spent 16 years in the NRO executive he was the executive assistant to the director of the National Reconnaissance Office and he was indeed CIA DSNT deputy director he indeed started the OGA and indeed he was the DDNI AT&F the deputy director for national intelligence for acquisition technology and facilities direct oversight over NRO acquisitions crazy there's there's there's a ton of people like that there's an individual named Mark Moynihan if you find him on LinkedIn these total spook of spooks this guy DDNI AT&F this guy CIA OGA C I C I A DSNT NRO so there seems to be this really interesting relationship with people who have been labeled as UFO legacy program gatekeepers yeah and one of those gatekeeping offices the DSNT and the NRO and seems like this revolving door old boys club where you go from the DSNT of the CIA to you know MITRE corporation or you know some other federally funded research and develop you go to Rand or whatever it's a MITRE NRO or you know I can't stress this enough about the importance of MITRE yeah yeah the DOE national labs you know San Dia Oak Ridge Lawrence Livermore Los Alamos those are critical but the importance of MITRE MITRE is the most overlooked entity in all of this subject why do you think that is because they deal with naval programs interested subject of USO and what's their role with respect to the Navy is it like tech protection or is it probably everything a UFO related stuff for in du-sec industrial security to SAP management to yeah monitoring large craft under the water to material exploitation to briefing oversight channels that exist yeah to doing all sorts of stuff the the MITRE pipeline of people who have worked for MITRE as you can see Paul Kaminsky Don Myricks and Donald Kerr numerous people who have allegedly been associated with UFO legacy programs end up at MITRE well it's funny I know them in the context of like holding these anti-gravity conferences yeah and like I think Ning Lee spoke at one in the early 2000 yeah she was this famous Chinese American you know anti-gravity researcher at University of Alabama Huntsville she claimed to make all these breakthroughs in like weight reduction yeah above a certain last reduction right yeah amazing and I think it's weight reduction which is a little bit thanks yeah right you're right yeah but but yes same sort of ridiculously crazy concept if you can do it yeah yeah and and and she's saying all this stuff about gravitons and you know sort of these you know you know alternating current rotating superconductors she's saying she wants to create free energy for the world she's citing how put off and talking about electrically polarizable vacuums and stuff and then she gets a contract I believe with the army she gets security clearance and then nobody ever really hears from her again she gets hit by a car it's sort of really weird but she was seen last publicly speaking at this MITRE corporation conference about anti-gravity yeah I'm like a mitter and I did sit down I interviewed her and this was at a conference in 2003 just that site Washington DC run by them or oversee whether myter corporation and it was looking at I think high frequency gravitational waves and and you know she she was an interesting character because she had been involved in some of those NASA experiments I mentioned earlier about rotating superconductors and weight loss experiments and she she shared one of the sessions I talked to her afterwards about it all she had this view that this was science and technology that should be for the people it should be you know very um uh fiddle throttling and it's you know nature and outcomes and then I don't know somehow soon after that it was that she sort of went off grade that certainly probably about within within a year but she just disappeared and no one knew what it happened so that's like just recently there was a slide deck not really leaked but kind of rediscovered about Eric Davis doing a teleportation study for the MITRE corporation in about to 2019 and so when because you have people online like Ashton Forbes who like talk a lot about teleportation like he's really sure that like you could teleport like a macros scale human being or something when I've spoken to Eric Davis he seems to be you know like talking about like quantum teleportation saying like that's already established science and you know that sounds insane because the word teleportation and isn't it but like is that necessarily involved in like UFO tech or is it I don't know yeah so much of the science and physics is so far beyond me I mean to as boring as it sounds I like the money I like the the program names I like the offices because because while we're while we're speaking about yeah kind of these these administrators NRO CIGA DSMT and kind of their string pullers and the DDNIAT and F and Alstad are now OUSD and S you talked about Kona Blue which was the failed prospective special access program that occurred in in 2010 and we can actually thank Arrow for releasing that slide deck weirdly enough this was to be a DHS sponsored usap on a knowledge special access program for Lockheed Martin to divulge from craft materials to the OSAP program and and big low advanced aerospace space studies bass and these materials were supposed to be bits and pieces of craft craft hall craft bulkhead I myself have heard this involved the Kingman wreckage from the 1953 Kingman airs owner crash and that Lockheed Martin vice president Jim's Jim writer James writer was the one who who wanted to get rid of these the materials for for who knows and conventionally Glenn Gaffney C I a DS and T deputy director was the one who put the kibosh and killed this our mutual friend Rob Jones has done some amazing work here also offers in the name Robert Cardio who was actually DDNI and head of the NGA the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency and while I think Robert Cardio was absolutely involved and people should go look at Robert Cardio if they're unfamiliar with him I think this was a DS and T operations specifically get Glenn Gaffney to put the kibosh on this so in my Lockheed project while looking into corner blue I kind of came across that there may have been a conflict of interest within Lockheed Martin maybe an insider in Lockheed who helped put the kibosh on the program this is an individual and I'll pass you this in a second named Mary K. Stertavant this is a name that it was never really floated around I made a tweet about this begging Chris Mellon to give some information on her to which she has declined in both a public outreach on Twitter and private messages I have not heard from him what did he say I know it just nothing oh nothing okay I know we're gone so Stertavant here has a really weird history she worked at the BDM Corporation in 1985 she joined the agency when I say agency I mean CIA for counterintelligence tech protection all that stuff she kind of went she worked in joint CIA director of operations and CIA director of science and technology programs she was a very high level deputy director position in the NRO and then in into she also served on the Senate Select Committee on intelligence where she and Chris Mellon actually worked together for numerous years not only did they work together but they they attended many of the same meetings not only did they attend many of the same meetings but over certain periods and quarters they have the exact same per DM which implies that they traveled together they ate together they attended the same meetings together on the same cars the same craft so I would wager these two have a very they they know each other quite well she was also served as a special advisor to the president under George W. Bush and in 2006 she joined a Lockheed Martin as the vice president for government affairs from 2006 to 2021 as well as VP for intelligence joint science and technology programs so I think there may have been a conflict of interest here within Lockheed Martin once your agency your agency for life right if if you're in the CIA you're never out of the CIA especially the director of science and technology so yeah I think there's a very strong argument that can be made that due to her obligations and allegiance to the CIA DS and T she had to help put the caboch on this technology transfer and also you think of if she knew Mellon I mean you think of Mellon that also is very pro you know kind of UFO stuff at least now when I would say to Christopher Mellon if if he's watching this because I've asked him numerous times yeah ask her again Mr. Mellon because I'm sure this time she'll remember okay yeah there yeah I'm sure this time she'll remember yeah yeah and here is Mary start to want yeah yeah yeah it's so interesting I mean you you often do see people kind of playing both sides of the issue as well yeah like um you hear about you know Mike Turner who put the caboch on you know this last uh or UAPDA not not this last one but the one before it you know my 20 fiscal year 2024 I believe that's right and you know you you hear that like you know the people you know the largest donors to his campaign are like you know like John Lockheed Boeing whatever but then simultaneously you have Lockheed clearly trying to get a bunch of information out through efforts like you know you know they spent a lot of time with Tom DeLong and the DSA and that sort of thing secret machines and so yeah it seems like they do want some disclosure to occur obviously when it comes to eminent domain clauses in the UAPDA that involve taking their material and you know making it kind of you know congressional civilian oversight uh you know uh you know they're obviously not going to be happy about that but it is interesting how they're trying to sort of manage the process yeah it seems like there's numerous factions competing for disclosure one of the most obvious factions is TTSA which involves the whole off-sap crew Eric Davis how put off uh Luel Azondo uh Chris Mellon all these guys their carefully managed disclosure seems to be about the revelations of the existence of non-human intelligence and technical vehicles and that there's programs to recover these but no discussion of derivation of technologies possibly for national security concerns or whatever they want to say uh and they really like to pose the whole NHI or super national security threat narrative the whole TTSA saga is very weird it seems like in in 2011 Tom DeLong was plucked this could have been an old bass a big-low advanced aerospace based studies project um you know they had some of their their documents under awesome kind of not leaked but discovered and there was discussion of a project forum um within those which was to basically in California take you know celebrities media personalities popular people to start talking about the UFO subject and I think that likely Tom DeLong in TTSA was a holdover project forum spearheaded by Luel Azondo under direction of something like the National Security Council to bring forth limited disclosures TTSA is wacky when you look at it you know Tom DeLong had numerous numerous high-level advisors whether it was somebody like Luel Azondo a whole history encounter intelligence um guys like Steve Justice from Lockheed Martin high-level Air Force generals and yep these guys were saying hey you know all these all these technologies are locked up in black budgets but we're gonna we don't really know how to do it but we're gonna try and make our own like light craft we're gonna try and make our own ARVs so it just seems almost like a bastardization of what legacy programs had doing like an in like all these guys Steve Justice who had worked in programs or been exposed to them had a amnesia and they had to kind of start all over again in the public sector they were they were clearly guys involved in that who had ulterior motives and then I do think I think you know some people don't give Tom DeLong enough credit for modern disclosure because like so many people just wouldn't even be into the subject I think if it weren't for a lot of what he got out and I do think he on his own organically made a ton of connections poke the bear a lot yeah to the effective a lot of these guys coming out to him and he kind of I think put a lot of this stuff together and so yeah maybe they're you know ulterior motives some of the people but not but I don't think Tom had ulterior but I think he had very genuine you know he was a trailblazer yeah I think so yeah I also think a strong argument can be made he was exposed to some pretty radical stuff whether this was authorized or unauthorized uh disclosures if you look at his appearance on Joe Rogan back in 2017 October of 2017 this was like the radical time that he came out and talked about TTSA there's something that really caught my eye there and I think a strong argument can be made Tom DeLong was exposed to elements of immaculate constellation yeah oh interesting we know immaculate constellation as the the you sat Matthew Brown was exposed to that began in 2017 that utilized uh US intelligence platforms overhead platforms implying NRL with spy satellites and overhead collection platform probably NGA and numerous various intelligence gathering systems to monitor both nonhuman craft and alien reproduction vehicles there are plenty of interesting cases including uh slowly rotating triangles over Indo-Pak common Indo-Pacific command within Matthew Brown's uh immaculate constellation document saucer shaped craft seemingly using crowd cloud coverage as cover and all that so but the connection I'm trying to make and why I think a strong argument Tom DeLong was exposed to immaculate constellation in 2017 the year uh imcon was but began is if you listen closely to that Joe Rogan interview Tom DeLong talks about episodic visits of craft he says that his high level sources in the NRO specifically told him that scientists and a keds had figured out ways to basically pre predict when and where craft would appear and thus satellites and imagery intelligence platforms would would capture these quote unquote episodic visits whoa his connections to the NRO whilst he was at TTSA uh Luwella Zondo was liaison to the NRO he was liaison to the NRO whoa I don't think a lot of people know that no that's not that's that's not public knowledge but yeah he was liaison to the NRO how did you figure that out curriculum uh CV okay CV okay liaison to the NRO and if you look at the immaculate constellation documents uh numerous sightings talk about how the sensor collection platform seemingly had uh four knowledge of the events almost like the the system was put in place to collect data on the appearance of the UFO or ARV but the system knew it was going to be there it had four knowledge it could it could track the erratically moving tic tac or the saucer so I think there's a connection there with those episodic visits and the four knowledge of of craft sighting the immaculate constellation documents the timelines out up to I I think that's that's something that that worthy to be explored if you ask Luwella Zondo if he was read into a immaculate constellation of course that's a use app so we'll have to deny that but I think there's some interesting questions there that could be explored it's so fascinating I think that more you read books like secret machines or like you know look at a lot of Tom DeLong's you know old interviews and stuff you're like I'll often like I'll catalog some of these things and I'll be like well I'm not so sure and then I'll do my own open source research and I'll run into something and I'm like damn he was like right about that dude like um you know like he he talks about I think the mainer consortium and the machine based on the Jason committee the Jason committee or it was like I think it was like this international corporate board that oversaw the UFO issue and it's either the Jason committee I think of more in the context of like tech protection via the the US like are you know kind of most sensitive weaponry but um I almost associate that with you know if you read like Jacques Vlaise for Ben science he talks about like the car-lou group constantly yeah coming up you know and and even Ben Rich there's a quote in the early 90s I think with his letters between him and and uh John Andrews I think of testers motor corp and he is talking about this like international governance board around the UFO issue and how it actually might need to be rested out of the international governance board and taken into American hands and so you know you you have a lot of things like that where you're like you know it seems like Tom actually was had a lot of great info yeah that's such a great point because it seems like you know whether it's a five-i as retrieval program or you know tech protection stuff like the the Jason committee which was founded out of miter by the way uh interesting yeah I don't know that yeah cool so that's why let's start like it at miter also like as a as a sino when was miter and a lot of these FFRDC started like the aerospace corporation 1959 1960 that's exactly when uh Colonel Philip J. Corso of the army's not air forces foreign technology division says that technologies were being ceded into basically US defense contractors to try to adapt to improve US military might connection there probably yeah and you have you know I interviewed Harold Maumgren as you know and he was at a federally funded research and developed yeah idea idea and uh you know he said a point blank before you know somebody wrote this like blog post kind of takedown of him he said my work at the idea it was actually a cover for what I was doing the national security council and the president and so um you it was clear even back then that like you had this kind of old boys club of the kind of wild wild west cowboy intelligence agencies and FFRDCs were used as a front kind of often because his mentor at the idea was Richard yeah Richard Bissell not only uh was deputy director of plans for the CIA later founded area 51 basically to test the e2 spy plane um but then also uh you know you mentioned this to me last night I had forgotten uh founded the the nro yeah it was one of the co-founders he was one of the co-directors because just like we talked about with the nro and cia ds and t uh the nro was the nro is unique because it exists as a joint do di c agency and upon its creation in in 1961 after a shoot down of a e2 spy plane over denied airspace in the soviet union uh the nro had co-directors one from the do d one from the ic and it's weird that the cia seems to have a little tug of war over any lately founded uh u.s intelligence agencies same thing with the nuro founded in 1969 up until 1972 there was a huge tug of war between the navy and cia specifically the ds and t over uh who controls the nuro and then of course bobby rayanman takes over and he's he's just agency out the wazoo so yeah further interesting parallels between that ritchard bistula is an interesting person i i'm particularly fond of and i think you probably are too of ritchard bistula uh allegedly briefing malmgren on otherworldly technologies as we know our buddy randy anderson off-world technologies division under the naval surface warfare center crane yeah yeah there's definitely seems like something might line up there what do you think of you know malmgren's testimony because i did that interview and i honestly would have expected that to have been picked up by like you know mainstream media because you have a guy who is a presidential advisor for jfk lbj nixon and forward you could argue with his level of seniority with you know jfk specifically yeah but he admitted that like you know he didn't deal a ton with jfk directly he dailed dealt more with shriver or whatever um and then you can't really argue with his you know connections with the other presidents i think he he rose in senior seniority uh you know as time went on yeah clearly was connected at the highest levels of government to me you know and i've met a lot of like i think pretty impressive people like just pattern match to somebody who had a map of the world in his head was a total kind of kissinger type you know maybe without the bad vibes that kissinger had you know the the the desire to create destruction and manipulate i think it's in some ways he was kind of like the opposite of kissinger and he was actually you know likely i think you know i think he he was cia and yeah and um and i think he was likely actually uh appointed to uh kind of restrain kissinger in many ways like he was kind of he was he was tagged with uh raining in kissinger who was seen as this kind of rogue guy so what do you think of his testimony because there's some people who've i think that's kind of a this coordinated job but like some people come out and attacked him since since that interview i think mongren was likely cia in his position at the idea was a knocker non-official cover which is a very common uh thing for agency stuff yeah i hope that i think over time that mongren's testimony is going to age like fine wine i mean i was i was re listening to your project with him just for one of my projects and i was particularly intrigued when he is talking about uh intelligence communities and how intelligence communities have essentially found a way to fund themselves and so they don't adhere to traditional oversight channels because they basically fund themselves this comports exactly what with what i think about institutions like the nro or other intelligence agencies and uf olegacy programs 1994 1995 they can use carry over funds basically to do whatever the heck they want i also think that i i hope the 1962 uh bluegill triple prime nuclear test starts to get revisited with what mongren said of course that was a um was that were those tests over bikini a toll where were those johnston at all yes i know there's been some discussion on whether that was a targeting pod or or or something that that was knocked out by the residual emp of the nuclear blast when the mongren stated that you know bissle briefed him on that being a uf o i think jeff crook shank has done some incredible work and is still to this day making the argument that that was a uf o recovered by the uss i think it was engaged yeah um what's interesting about about that testimony is those tests were a um were conducted under the a evolution agency of the afs wp the armed forces special weapons project which eventually became dittra i can't remember the agency specifically afs afs wp went through like eight or nine iterations before it became dittra sorry not eight or nine that's an exaggeration like four or five yeah uh but that agency did the testing yeah really yeah and sandia supplied like uh the the specific rocket payload for that testing and such but what's interesting to me is when uh Dylan Boerlin talks about all the atomic energy commission records talking about uh concluding that uf os our extra terrestrial vehicles based upon the atomic energy commission i i wonder if if part of those records adhered to the afs wp before it came became dittra so fast name that crash yeah and the whole i mean so there's this guy you know dd n johnson who took you know tried to do this like takedown of mongren and the whole takedown was like you know he couldn't have held the q clearance which you wouldn't be able to figure out through the fb i at all i think i was cia you just wouldn't and especially if you're a non official cover cia there's just no way and so i think a lot of those points are sort of rendered moot and then you could say well he wasn't cia but it's like if you read the t-leaves on the interview he's saying he handled the presidential daily briefs that's a cia thing he's saying his best friends with tom farmer who's happened to be the general counsel of the cia he had paul melons walking st in the interview and i'm holding it for half the time in the interview or whatever because i wanted to see it i had it off hand just in his apartment does it represent anything it looks very unique oh yeah love power this episode is brought to you by simply safe and this simply safe on is the sound of peace of mind simply safe sensors hd cameras and 24 seven security monitoring protect your home inside and out against break ins fires water leaks and more so you can relax visit simply safe dot code us uk slash pod for an exclusive discount so paul melons is the founder one of the founders of the cia so like i don't know you got to read the read the kind of t-leaves on it um you know and i i kind of i think figured that out through kind of basic research you know he's at oxford he's gale you know it's like he gets it Richard bissles your mentor he's deputy directors number two in the entire cia yeah we have Richard bissle all over his diary so it's like so clear to me that he was cia and then i don't know i felt like maybe it was hard for me to to break this you know gentlemanly oath that he had so he was kind of breaking it on his own you know he clearly was breaking it in the UFO context but i felt weird explicitly outing him yeah so i hear you see i yeah yeah so yeah and it's the guys like you know literally by the time we put it out he had passed away sadly and so like i just didn't feel like it was my place but i did insert a little thing at the very beginning in the monologue saying if you if you like look if you like watch this entire interview you'll realize he's part of a much deeper intelligence network than meets the i yeah and i think that didn't maybe a lot of people didn't process that clearly did in johnson didn't but uh i don't know the the cue clearance specifically is kind of a mute point to me of course cue clearances the DOE is a clival equivalent of a top secret clearance i mean so there are there are some not public individuals that that i'm familiar with one of whom specifically has claimed to have operated on a crash retrieval team UFO crash retrieval team out of the Nevada test and training range i've spent a lot of time uh kind of vetting this person and and studying their claims and i have to say i do trust them and believe them and at area 51 area 51 adjacent adjacent not us for but us for adjacent sites okay can you say where one such place would be the ton of a test range TTR which is managed by sand sandia which is the Department of Energy's experimental weapons testing range and what does he say he does specifically will context of crash oh well we'll we'll talk about that that's interesting there's some interesting points there but basically this guy was a sheep dipped from another us military branch sheep if we know that term from Jake Barber going down the combat controller pipeline taken into the program means getting getting erased yeah yeah it's an agency term yeah going full ghost yeah yeah so this guy was sheep dipped into the the programs and uh for programs went on on on blue sites or unacknowledged sites just to hang out for staging ops for rapid reaction retrieval teams he has a badge the badge has nro on it and it just has a happy to be slapped on cue clearance so again i have to state that this i can't really provide evidence for this guy's testimony to you and this should be taken with conjecture of course but there this individual i personally believe is testimony and uh it seems like he never tested for a cue clearance he never went through any sort of um system to get a cue clearance he was just given it you're just given the cue clearance yeah and and the re I think this is also important because we just went through kind of org chart stuff around how the UFO stuff works hierarchically but as far as the classification and clearances is of this stuff of the atomic energy commission and special nuclear material all of that stuff is really important yeah so yeah yeah so go go watch David grush on Joe Rogan if you've if you've watched it once watched again if you've watched it twice watch it half a dozen times and listen to the minutiae of what he says um specifically legacy programs starting with the same secrecy mechanisms as the madhat and project in the 1954 atomic energy agreement birthing a lot of the secrecy behind uh a UFO legacy program classification and controls from that we can take that the department of energy and its precursor agency the atomic energy commission they hold a lot of the classification systems that cover in UFO legacy programs and secrecy and who gets right into the bigot list and the usaps and how the programs are delegated and where their house and so forth and specifically there's numerous mechanisms that the uh atomic energy commission and department of energy can utilize uh based upon the 1954 atomic energy agreement these include special nuclear materials anything that gives off vaguely radioactive or radio yeah radioactive signatures just oh let's put that as special nuclear material uh transclassified foreign nuclear information which that's famously outlined in the uapda for three years in a row specifically named tfni transclassified foreign nuclear information and fi i foreign intelligence information now what's interesting about foreign intelligence information is there's a caveat to it that i think really enforces my theory uh one subset of foreign intelligence information fi i is non contract which means not releaseable to customers or contractors i believe this is a security mechanism used for department of energy and they're semi-autonomous subordinate agency the national nuclear security administration to obfuscate UFO programs within DOE and NSA national labs sandia lorence livermore uh low salimos and then the y-12 complex which houses Oak Ridge so that's a very interesting answer to go to because of course there's it seems like with legacy programs there's numerous layers of of program security there's the darpa said uh if you're considered an insider outsider threat to them they'll just kill you really there's the DOE o i c i uh who they're examples of them like taking people out or no i but uh public yeah but the DOE o i c i well where are you getting that though that darpa said can just like take people out well i i mean i i just made a tweet about this uh pretty recently about the darpa said and basically their program protection structure for special access programs within the united states for the most national security like restrictive special access programs the most innovative exotic technology programs for the united states and it just it stands to reason that um the cia historically hasn't how to problem with taking out its own citizens if it needs to if there's an insider outsider threat such a program protection uh agency or directorate on the forefront of legacy programs would not uh hesitate twice to neutralize insider outsider threats uh just like whistleblowers we know today face reprisals right david grushes face reprisals i know individuals who have had pensions threatened um threatened with inappropriate uh stuff on their computers really disgusting uh graphic stuff that is just a porant to think about and so it just stands to reason if if somebody is a direct threat to a a program protection structure that they might be taking out yeah sometimes wonder if there's some biological like if you if you want like a full clamp down control on like people who are a part of a program are there chips you're embedding are you giving them shots where you can kind of switch them off later in life are there are there things like i mean it's horrible to think about but do you think some of that stuff is going on there's one common thread i found and each of these three people had the same thing happen that they kind of answered independently there's Michael Herrera who observed the while a deployed on the u s s denver in sumatra indonesia experienced a team and all black of of operators and allards seemingly reverse engineered manmade craft there's Jonathan wagant and his infamous 1997 crash retrieval encounter and then there's roger castle who during the hunter warrior advanced war fighting experiment 1997 while he was an av8 b harrier aviation technician uh basically was ordered to check out some unauthorized flare activity is saw a massive 200 300 foot triangle and accompanying black team he was held at gunpoint all three of these men directly after their encounters were given what they were told were anthrax vaccine boosters back in the 90s there was a huge controversy around anthrax scare and anthrax boosters a roger castle specifically had already been given the anthrax vaccine and anthrax booster so weird that right after his experience of this this team and this triangle likely manmade triangle he's given another booster same with wagant same with Herrera anthrax booster yeah what so weird prompted me on this is you know you saw some sensitive technology now you need to be protected from anthrax yeah what which was a flash in the pan threat to begin with like we right who's talking about anthrax right what was interesting is initially it was i was um roger castle that said this he's like yeah afterwards i was given an anthrax booster and then i was talking to my carara about his encounter and he said oh i was just given an anthrax booster unprompted this was like months after and this is like a prophylactic where if you came across anthrax presumably i don't have the i mean defense for it is like a covid booster but for anthrax yeah and then i made that connection i was a north carolina sent across from Jonathan wagen sharing a meal and he's talked about his encounter i loved Jonathan wagen by the way one of the greatest guys i know and he talks about just completely unprompted yeah and you know afterwards we were given an anthrax booster speaking of Jonathan wagen i cannot express to you how much i dislike the phelma reen sardance he was with during his encounter they threw him under the bus and sold him out well let's get into the core details of because you just came out with a video maybe a couple months ago that or a few months ago that was one of the best i think most important uh just pure whistleblower testimonies about Jonathan wagen and yeah what a fascinating story so yeah tell us about it i think that can bridge us into how crash retrieval teams work as well yeah Jonathan wagen to us mc lance corporal 1997 sent to paru operation laser strike which is a counter narcotics operation uh narco planes shoot them down get drugs out of columbia belivia uh paru entry in us airspace he is told at one point that there's a downed friendly or or foreign plane no big deal so he and a troop of eight to ten marines including sergeant adkins and sergeant alans uh trek down to where this aircraft crashed after a combination of driving and trekking they encounter a clearing which in a basically cliff face there's an enormous egg-shaped tear drop shaped craft embedded in the cliff face um the craft is featuring extensive ballistic damage on the back wagen guesses to this day this was due to a paru in hawkman 23 missile system there's seemingly a field around the craft you know it's kind of silvery metallic but around the craft there's this swirling field similar to what dilland borlin said about the mechant lava like mechanism that was used seemingly to cloak the craft this was a purplish greenish like oil on water the mother of pearl effect there was a light around the circumference of the craft that was kind of slowing down okay um and there seemed to be a hatch open with what's appeared to be an arm hanging out with four fingers this was part of uh did it look like a human arm did it look like a reptile it doesn't gray alien it just looked like an arm hanging out with four fingers yeah and this was actually one of the things that steven grier cut out of their year 2000 interview why did he cut and I don't know out of this guy's testimony at first I thought it was uh he was vindictive against James fox you know our mutual friend and excellent filmmaker great upcoming project James fox he he filmed the wagen interview for steven grier and so initially when I found the raw files which even the raw files on grier's dpi archive are still chopped up you can find one part where James fox asks a question and it quickly cuts so initially I thought grier just cut out James foxes part but it seems more dubious than that if part of wagen's testimony was excluded but that's part for the course for grier right we can think of Brad Swarinson in the 1988 flux liner incident at the norton air force base airshow were in 1990 uh Brad Swarinson admitted to aviation we can space technology senior editor bill scott the entire incident was real everything happened the flux liners the copycat vehicles and and grier and his cronies stone walled this interview so crazy yeah it's if you really want disclosure and you're talking about about a guy who you know shows up you know it edwards it was an edwards air force it was north north and air force based close down now near air force plant 42 that's right and and then he's shown some back of the house show and then you see an alien reproduction three alien reproduction vehicles hovering or whatever and you see video of it like that's that's such an important testimony yeah and and then he's sort of like you know it goes dark and he's like and you know really mean to all the UFO research giving me so many death threats it's crazy so then you have sure steven grier is the one guy who's sitting on like yeah you know like really crazy you know testimony from him and he he actually what where is that like you did you destroy it or like I don't it was where is the evidence so I think this was found between 2017 and 2020 2019 or 2020 okay okay uh one of grier's cronies a pretty respected and famous researcher compiled a bunch of documents on this and I think pride the interview from bill Scott and they just him and the grier team just put this all in a pdf uh non-ocr so non-searchable pdf and just post it it on the dpi archive as norton air force base internal so this was supposed to be an internal document that was posted to to grier's public archive this is like a 200 page pdf and I read through the whole thing because I was doing a I was absorbing as much mechanicalish as much audio associated with it okay it's a written thing from bill Scott but there's also handwritten notes between bill Scott so they did publish this no they didn't publish it no they just made it internal yeah why I tried to reach out to bill Scott but he had a heart attack so he's in poor health how do you so I haven't heard from him I'd like to see like aviation week yeah it's based technology senior editor uh and of course I've I've tried to kind of uh run a bit of a gambit with Brad saying hey I like I've seen this interview I know you've you've seen it I just get more death threats but you know but the the circling back to wagant because I that's so I think that's so productive in how we can talk about crash retrieval teams it but it just seems like every now and then grier weirdly off through skates some data including critical testimony I mean the biologics being present at Jonathan Wagant's retrieval encounter is critical because as he gets close to the craft as it's dripping this clear viscous uh a syrupy like liquid he feels like a bean is communicating to him and his mind telling him not to be scared but also asking for help which I can't imagine the type of PTSD that would give a man a sentient being like begging for help but also trying to calm you down what did he do oh he's getting closer and closer the craft because he's the only one that gets near it and then sergeant alan and sergeant adkins kind of jerking back to reality screaming at him and tell him to you know get the heck out of there sergeant alan and sergeant adkins I won't say which one of them but one of them um I emailed from my uap grabets email dot com email it's it doesn't my name or anything like that um asking for comment and they responded hello my full name so they're trying to be like a trying a big bro me a little bit it be a little bit intimidating saying like I don't know who you are I know they doxed you in response yeah correct uh so that's not cool and that's why I don't like them and they've also thrown them under the bus so one of them specifically said oh no Jonathan Wagant's just crazy it's just not true but the the most important part uh in my opinion is when Wagant and the other Marines lead to clearing they're immediately intercepted by between eight and twelve operators in all black us army helmets that's kind of an important detail all black no insignia no name tags uh held at gunpoint whilst these men are being detained to us army c h 47 helicopters land out of the helicopters come a team in mob gear mission oriented protective posture just think has mat gear you know if you think back to the 1965 Kecksburg Pennsylvania crash all the witnesses on oncy scene said they saw people in what they called moon suits arrive and uh but these people are wearing DOE insignia and some of them have DOE range jackets uh Wagant tries to resist he gets the crap beaten out of him and um he's taken and held in isolation for a period of up to two days after numerous threats of of that he's going to be killed and all that stuff but so that crash retrieval team that is really important the people in DOE that is highly likely the Department of Energy nuclear emergency support team DOE nest DOE nest is a DOE NSA and NSA again is the DOE semi-autonomous agency the national nuclear security administration support team they're responsible for rapid reaction responses to any sort of CBR and E chemical biological radiological nuclear high yield explosive specifically dealing with nuclear stuff around the world uh this team has their own private jets of course which is also really weird detail that guy uh I talked to you about that has claimed he's been on retrieval teams out of the NTTR has stated for some rapid reaction events they would hop on a little private jet so the DOE nest has their own private jets DOE nest derives its authority from where else the 1954 atomic energy agreement so DOE nest operates under that authority so they can kind of use the same classification systems um to do you know whatever the heck they want uh so how do they because I think of OGA Office of Global Access is being this kind of rapid response team are they coordinating with DOE nest or logistics coordinators so okay think about like the NGA as a combat support agency um they're they're in the NRO they're providing intelligence uh actionable information so for the CAA is just a coordinator so in all likelihood what but this is what OGA is under CAA and this is before the OGA existed right but in all likelihood let's say Jonathan Wagens and Counter occurred in 2004 uh just for a mind exercise sure the CAA OGA would have likely contracted the US Army 160th SOAR okay Hawks okay uh specifically first battalion which is the uh US Army's basically helicopter regiment uh that supports JSOC operations to utilize their CH-47s for this retrieval operation yep uh OGA would have said hey we need this nest team whether they're nest or whether they're just retrieval operators using nest and using the 1954 atomic energy agreement as a shield but we need those guys and then they would also um coagulate and get the tier one adjacent likely US Army Delta in this case um folks to to get to the retrieval scene so then yeah what ends up happening to Wagen so he's he's basically beat up he's put an isolation and and then he's given it an anthrax shot as you mentioned later and then he's sent back to Cherry Point uh after a while Sergeant Adkins Sergeant Allens get mad at him if they try and talk to him uh the Marines treat him like crap uh so he uses marijuana to get kicked out of the Marines because it's so hellacious for him poor guy man so messed up and you see it in his face yeah he's haunted he's looks haunted yeah so before he started recording and so forth he was like trembling oh it still affects him deeply to this day to speak about I can only imagine it took it took months to get him on camera he doesn't he does not want to be on camera he lives a private life he has a beautiful family he uh works with rescue dogs a lot great guy pure heart and uh it's been terrible for him so that DOE nest though I think there's a lot of interesting things there because we've talked about special nuclear material FII yeah transclassified for nuclear information and now nest I think nest is likely used at a broad and or conist and oak onus outside conist constantly United States retrieval operations the DOE and slash NNSA employ two other agencies I think are highly likely involved in UFO retrieval operations or passing recovered UFO materials between US national labs here in the continental United States this would be DOE SRT special response team which is sort of a federal unit a federal protective force that has a rest onsite authority within the the US um these are the guys that safeguard nuclear material these are the guys that safeguard say and dn and national labs and then the DOE NSA NNSA OST or office of secure transportation these are the guys that drive the big rigs that transport the uh the materials now the common thing between all three of these agencies nest SRT and OST these are not comprised of uh of of DOD employees these are comprised of contractors hmm all three of them are comprised of contractors for example sandia has designed the big rigs the OST uses but that's not the point the contractors involved are sandia um Lawrence Livermore low solimos rathion and our former good friend now part of a momentum e gng e gng of course is is the company that allegedly hired bobless hard to work out at area 51s for e gng uh was of course be reheaded by donald curr of course the nr row and e gng one of the senior special projects guys is one of the people Alfredo donald is one of the individuals who told george and hap that uh there were was a recovered saucer held at an area 51 adjacent site with live biologics in the nineteen and this is crazy because Alfredo donald was also anti Jacobson source and she goes on likes freedman and she goes I was told on his deathbed Alfredo donald told me you know she that was a big source for her book area 51 where she was basically given exclusive early access post bobless are nobody really knew anything about area 51 and she saying that her source Alfredo donald tells her that what did she say exactly about roswell that it was these like pro pro pro pro geria mangill twins from joseph mangillay at the behest of joseph stallon once it was determined that this was a hoax and that stallon was able to get a craft over the united states and it crashed and it had you know people inside of it they were people that were sort of deformed and meant surgically altered to look like aliens the united states government decided that it needed to know what on earth that was all about and if it was possible for us to have the same program this according to the source right now that source is al o donald who is the nuclear weapons engineer who armed wired and fired 186 nuclear weapons and they're harder to believe than aliens yeah right to be quite honest right it's listening to george not talk about this you can tell he's a little bit frustrated because he spent because he has the same sources her and Alfredo donald told him that it's and he also has you have a feeling of that source there was george not stated that there was a meeting set up between one of the heads of e g and g and gerton german house and in career for one of them to meet with him dick tomato you know dick tomato of of of the i think he was he was s sc i right he was kind of a charge of of probing saps and stuff and Alfredo donald to talk about recovered UFOs and this was sometime in the 90s and when they got to this meeting the subject of UFOs was off the table and this was the turning point for al o donald he would never speak about it again what's what's really interesting though is that hey sainsbury's we get through so many snacks have you gone to think to help me save well we're always matching and lowering prices so hundreds of sainsbury's fresh fruit veg and everyday products are price match to al d and every week with neta you can save money on thousands of the products your family loves so you can snack away knowing you're saving money sainsbury's good food for all of us selected products al d price match not in an eye nectar prices require nectar account terms at sainsbury's dot kudot uk slash ld price match and neta dot com slash prices terms al o donald apparently said to george nap that in uh 90 the early 1950s 1954 to be exact that the recovered saucer was uh kind of transferred into area area 51 adjacent sites uh conventionally you would think that that is because area 51 was supposedly built in 1954 established in 1954 even though there's strong arguments that underground sites near area 51 existed far before that with the borax mines i'm of a different mind i think that re craft was moved in 1954 because the 1954 atomic energy agreement gave expanded powers to government owned contractor operated laboratories like sandia and so forth to house the craft and thus 1954 resembles a turning point when do we uh ffr dc's and ns a which was established in the year 2000 started to kind of hang on to these materials themselves especially on the the Nevada test site nttr Nevada test and training range there's a series of photographs in the national archives ranging from 1972 to at that time 1992 before uh mart marietta purchased sandia back in 1993 uh but and and now it exists like 2012 but it was uh 20,000 plus e g and g Nevada test site and sandia operations all across the Nevada test site so many photos of underground stuff weird computer control room so that is my prevailing theory that 1954 saw uh it saw a lot of these sorts of of projects being moved into government owned contractor operated hands which that's further supported by um there is a former new mexico state rep j andru kissner this is like a proto grush um nobody speaks about this and it's insanely interesting and i can speak about the so 2002 or 2004 second annual crash retrieval conference linda molten how says hey i'm gonna present this testimony i personally don't think of her as too credible of a source uh so i want to broken a lot she's broken a lot of stories right right but with some sensationalism sometimes so i i contacted j andru kissner myself to confirm if if he did this or not he still live correct wow correct he doesn't really want to talk interesting which is like most people who have been involved don't really want to talk they and he was a congressman or senator he was a he was a rep for the mexico okay and so in 1994 1995 he conducted a series of interviews with first-hand legacy people all across the board office of naval research air force etc um and basically starting in 1947 there was some crashed craft and of our bush spearheaded retrieval efforts and so forth and they says all this yes crazy numerous scientific agencies were involved the afs wp which would later become ditcher was involved and that in the early 1950s there was a shift in how these craft were held and craft were given over to government owned contractor operated hands to be custodians so that's one of the biggest interesting things in j andru kissner's testimony that puts a lot of faith in um in in my opinion of him as he talks about this which comports strongly with with my idea that national lab started to take over these materials and housed them in the 1950s uh indeed uh j andru kissner allegedly in 1995 told other new mexico state rep uh Stephen shif about this Stephen shif launched a giant probe into roswell and there's a gau audit and an investigation into roswell where apparently the air force had lost all of their files into roswell so that's a really interesting rabbit hole it's Stephen shif i think is on record saying like complaining about yes yes he says that the records were like rampant or like inappropriately destroyed all that good stuff so crazy seems like the mid 1990s has a lot of really weird events that might have had to cause you a folic as he programs to reorganize themselves to hide behind this special access program oversight committee special air senior review group makes sense interesting so that was when this reorg happened yeah okay 1950s okay and so yeah again we talked about why the national labs would be perfect to house some of these stuff um i've talked about it before it's another individual that needs to go further vetting um because there's some stuff that checks out with his testimony and some stuff that makes more questions but he has stated he has worked under the y-12 complex which houses Oak Ridge on a UFO legacy program that studies the skin of tube recovered uh nonhuman uh saucer craft whoa and this is a current guy that you're in touch with as of 18 months ago wow 18 months 24 months like within the last one and he's saying that that Oak Ridge houses this program that does like you know kind of material analysis on on UFO materials yeah so think things for the need to be vetted with him so again this you know if you're listening to this interview this shouldn't be the takeaway this should be considered an interesting addendum to the conversation already like hey maybe this is possibly true but there's some interesting stuff there uh tube recovered discs um he states that miter and batella the two primary folks involved with this and that the DOE OICI office of intelligence and counterintelligence is the are the people that kind of run the show have you tried to stress test what he said or corroborated through independent channels a lot of it checks out and a lot of a lot some of him is a little weird okay so I think at the very least he's being used as a limited hangout by people who actually work at the y-12 complex on these stuff specifically DOE OIC guys uh but I do think there's truth to the story that under the y-12 complex there exists this uh yeah because he program what's interesting he says that this program studies the skin of craft we've started to hear this a lot with recovered extraterrestrial or non-human craft skin of craft why skin of craft I think there's a there's going to be a budding conversation in the next couple of years that what is common in UFO craft retrieval specifically eggs the egg shaped craft whether unmanned or manned is that they're seemingly layers of of of of skin on the craft interlayers and outer layers separating like the bull kid from the outer layer of the craft by mine is drawn to a the uh anti-tr operator ice book of he spoke about a a cracked egg once that he was on retrieval mission four and there was uh layers like a Russian nesting doll there was layers of skin under the craft um I think back to the 1948 testimony of one Albert Bruce Collins who claimed to be a metallurgist uh working on who had some exposure to exotic stuff at the University of California Berkeley uh this guy further stuff needs to be uh further investigation needs to be done but he disclosed to Tim Cooper and uh Leonard Stringfield in 1990 shortly before his death I think on New Year's Day 1991 or something like that but uh he gave a lot of interesting insights into stuff like project twinkle which was of course a sandy abacid division investigation into green fireballs over in New Mexico yeah uh which Lincoln La Paz claimed probably weren't prosaic objects and so forth and I think there was some obstruction there as far as the project twinkle records you know being being shown because yeah Lincoln La Paz who is a you know kind of a University of New Mexico meteor export expert not with any UFO background or spooky intelligence background came to the conclusion that these green fireballs would track you know plumes of you know atomic detonations and uh were you know happening at atomic sites across the US and they would turn on and off and they seem to be intelligently moving around yeah and then the Air Force recommended that the findings of project twinkle not be disclosed because there was no natural explanation for this there you go and then of course we had the Robertson panel and all that all that uh stuff that happened thereafter but Albert Brooks Bruce Collins stated that in 1948 at the University of California Berkeley he saw a low boy style trailer that was carrying a recovered vehicle it was an egg shaped craft that seemed to be cracked there seemed to be layers of skin and like separated bulkheads and almost inside like a visibly light compartment sort of like an egg yolk but that that skin those layers is very intriguing um everybody including our good friend one of the best people I know Chris Ramsey is obsessed with the 4chan whistleblower yeah I actually think there's a lot of validity to that I think that might be legit but there back in 2024 there was another sort of reddit whistleblower testimony that really flew under the radar that I I think it's worthy of revisiting I think the title of the post now deleted was just x oga contractor oga is not office of global access here its government other government agency implying this guy was probably like an agency contractor stuff this guy was in the 24th uh STS which is a tier one unit and JSOC from the Air Force uh he talks about after his service in the STS like 16 years or so he is just doing contracting work for an oga probably the CIA or something and and he staged a oconous outside the United States and and I'll send you the link for this because I really recommend people read it it's a really juicy really juicy testimony that doesn't go overboard which is interesting and he sees his old truth cheap uh troop chief there's a couple C 130's that fly up to the base it's all hush hush nobody talks about it he sees these people just get into us army CH 47's likely 160th store for rapid reaction teams and then no talk about this completely hush about uh six to 10 hours later that team returns and he sees his old troop chief this is very strange to this uh this testimony this poster because the troop chief was just having beers in Virginia doing a fantasy football draft days prior the troop chief looks super disturbed super tired a little out of it um but won't really say what happened uh the the poster of this kind of pokes around what were these guys doing the the term crash the treeble came up and he was kind of chewed out reamed for it a year later he meets up with this troop chief and the troop chief kind of opens up and and says what it happened he was on a parallel not directly jsock but a parallel tier one unit that was siloed under its own umbrella authority not responsible for the traditional so calm channels that was responsible for crash retrieval of exotic vehicles in the span of four years he had only done three retrieval incidents two of which were completely unknown to him he had no idea what they were but this new one really shook him to the core the team was taken to a retrieval site and there they found an egg embedded in mud uh the egg there was no like brush fire there was no uh you know explosive residue it seemed like a giant bowling ball had been dropped from space and this egg had landed in and this large silvery metallic egg i think a larger than the size of a couple SUVs was cracked and inside what else is there but layers of of craft seeming like the nesting doll analogy is used what's interesting is this this guy said um the air felt soupie um the air felt soupie we're calling Dylan Borland said that that triangle took off above him at Langley he felt the like the he felt like charged air right yeah so it feels like there's felt like thunder it felt like a like electricity like run through his body or something just like Jonathan Wagen so the air felt heavy as soon as he got in the proximity of the craft and the guy didn't know what to do they're just there to secure the LZ um but it's an anomalous vehicle that doesn't seem to be manned or like we like to say SOB souls on board but it's just a it's a really tame uh testimony that i encourage people to to look at it it comports with what i know about manned unmanned egg retrievals it's very interesting it's so fascinating yeah and you mentioned you know there's so many places to take this but you mentioned in in 2003 the OGA you know under uh the CIA gets created the out of global access and i think there's a daily male article that outlines you know Chris Sharp yeah Chris Sharp again okay there you go um all over the world you know they're kind of you know keeping their finger on the pulse of UFO crashes and you know i think there's a rumor in because you mentioned you know if this was if the Wagen crash were after 2003 Jacek Jacek would have been involved in the army would have been involved uh i believe there's a rumor of a dog fight between lock-eed crash retrieval team and a Jacek crash retrieval team in 2004 competing over like trying to retrieve yeah it's very cruel sentinels of ether huh the jake barber classic i i mean i've i've heard that that checks out with the details of it and why certain elements and sentinels of ether which was like a rhamana clay written by jake barber under a pseudonym right to try and trick dops or in an intriguing play i think there's details there that are more important uh for example i think the location of koyame mexico is really important i wouldn't be surprised if there's like explain that oh well just context for the odds basic context so jake barber obviously you know very important you know UFO whistleblower came out uh earlier this year uh through ross colt are me a couple other people and um said that he retrieved an egg-shaped craft on this sort of you know generic range sort of you know california test range did you see this egg i saw it absolutely what it looked like um it's probably 20 feet plus or minus i don't know uh 10 percent from my point of view you know i was 150 feet from it had 150 foot long line that night uh in a couple of different incidents i guess one was an egg one was it you know an eight gone craft um said a lot of interesting things also clearly was holding back you know in a lot of ways and but one of the interesting things he said is to get initially get some information out through dopser you know um which is you know you need to clear everything you let out through the dode to let it out he said he sort of tricked them by writing a sci-fi you know book and and i think the first chapter is out and it's sentiners sentinels of ether yeah and a lot of people you know a lot of hard-core UFO researchers have speculated on this you know first chapter of this book because they think a lot of details might comport with the truth well the most interesting part to me is that i i think there's a message there that these retrieval assets the guys that weigh-gant and counter the guys that roger castlin countered and the guys that michael rara countered are not afraid to conduct blue on blue violence these will kit these guys will kill american servicemen if need be for for their mission directive i think that's one of the greater themes there that maybe jake barbers trying to bring attention to if this is what is not a real event which a very well could be additionally i think there's interesting data there to suggest that you know maybe there's an underground us rapid reaction facility in koyamae mexico in the north part of mexico and then maybe some of these facilities are built into mountains are built underground and there's various foliage or various terrain or possibly projections that are used to offuscate these sites mm yeah well i mean look you have to look no further than like shy and mountain complex you know we have and then you you always bring up you know the solder you know a deep underground military bases you have a great video on this subject that's not a conspiracy like under national labs and under sensitive sites all over the us we have underground facility deep underground military bases absolutely exists they have been a huge focus of the us do d and us army core of engineers since nineteen forty eight when we took a bunch of nazi scientists including savior dorsche head of the taught organization to work under an air material command underground underground laboratory and underground systems project deep underground military bases are extremely real you have to look no further than the lockied hellendale or north of tejon rcs facilities which were built primarily underground to hide from soviet soviet is are in in our denied airspace yeah these places are built under additionally if you're housing a uf oh we're just a conventional sapper interesting technology or even like a recovered russian migh you're not going to keep that in a hanger yeah i can keep that above ground you're going to keep that in in an underground installations and there's there's numerous studies by the us army core of engineers in back to the fifties about supplying these with a nuclear reactor where to get rid of some of the the silt and and dig out and where to put the excess dirt um there's there's data on how to supply you know years of food and water there's there's interesting parallels to the Nazis and like the regan worm logger and Poland which was essentially an underground city with its own functioning train system uh this is a very real thing i think the biggest question is is there a network of maglev trains or similar things connecting such installations and i would say that there's a very strong argument that can be made early on there were possible pneumatic systems that were thought to be implemented in Nazi Germany under the taught organization that would connect Berlin to france and have a pneumatic train system that would connect the two in like five minutes uh there's the 1972 uh rand theoretical study the very high speed transit system which talks about connecting uh similar places uh there's maglev systems even lockied martin was super into maglev stuff in the year 2000s and then of course you you can i start to rationalize this maglev levitating magnets sort of like like a high speed bullet train style tech yeah and then uh and then like tunnel boring machines tbms how these things could be used uh by the bureau of reclamation as offshoot programs to start coring out these these tunnels i implore people go look at those say india nts uh say india lab photos and just look at the how large some of these underground tunnels were cord out under the nabata test site just for experiments just for various technical experiments and so many of these whistleblower testimonies like a guy you broke who then we did a show with later is randia anderson talks about being at uh naval service warfare crane he's taken down in some elevator goes deep below you know the ground and then he's taken through a bunch of skiffs until he gets to what is it off world or other off world technology division sees a gauntlet emitting hieroglyphics and levitating sphere yeah fascinating when you in a lot of a lot of stories include that include going deep underground it seems seems like what frustrates me about randia specifically is a lot of people piled on him saying like oh and kind of meaning on him uh trolling him saying why would there be a sign that says off world technology division i'd be remiss if i didn't show you this yeah um at the at the dogway proving ground the dogway proving ground is the area of experimental land is larger than the u.s. state of up road island uh it's it's like the nttr where it's one of the largest none or contiguous air spaces for special projects in the entire united states it houses two major range and test facility bases the um the uh Utah test and training range uttr the dogway proving ground houses the southern range of the uttr in the west desert test center out of army a tech by the way if um if if if anybody's listening to who's interested in batel go look at who spearheads the west desert test center mr. ryan w heros was a background of working for projects for the ditcha and batel so go start looking at that a little bit interesting but at the west desert batel co-manages uh dogway proving ground they do a lot of work there on on cbrn e stuff exactly biological stuff that's why there's so many stories about uh specifically biologics being held at a at a dogway proving ground and speaking of this is what is uh this is in the cafeteria at the west desert test center and i'll send you that so you can put it there we'll pop it up whoa they do this stuff right in your face that's so crazy and this looks so realistic do and you got the three fingers yeah really trippy so i can't tell if it has if there's a thumb there for it's just three finger wow as far as dogway goes there's there's one guy I've spoken to and he's in my dogway video who's had a first hand encounter at dogway proving ground really yeah goes by the first hand encounter with a being or with a no with a craft undergoing undergoing various testing mechanisms so he was a contractor for i can oh gosh the name just gave me but not like a not like a locking martin just like a standard contractor that does operations in maintenance at dogway and an aviary section which is right by the uh three oh eight range squadron i want to say right by their airstrip at the uh dogway proving ground he's doing electrical meter reading and he goes inside a facility and within that facility which is out in the middle of nowhere on aviary there's a craft in a ver in what's seemingly going in a state of disassembling at the bottom area of this craft that looks like a symmetrical top across its x axis there's a like what seems to be like a panel or a part removed where there's like an inverted cone it kind of reminds me of the like the reactor bob kind of bob was our kind of talks about but he's immediately held at gunpoint by indusek personnel and taken to you know another area didddle where he's kind of debriefed and threatened and since that he met with one of the chief scientists at dogway this is a guy who has a very real name i'm i've i know the name now and i'm trying to track this guy down but this is a real person who informed this individual and mass of the massive stiff or subterranean facility below dogway including the the specific entrance which i'll send you a picture of which is just west east of granite peak which is also a weird radar raised by the 388th range squadron and to the north west of dugway german village it's just a tiny it's just a tiny little structure out in the middle of nowhere and apparently this is an elevator down if if anybody because it's in vote right now if anybody's watching stranger things in the newest season of stranger things were 11 is taken down to the secret lab the secret facility it's just like a literal shed in the middle of nowhere in the middle of the desert similar thing what's an interesting detail is that for apparently for above ground testing a bunch of portapodes are sometimes moved to this region super weird detail because another contractor i spoke to out at dogway who was active as recently as 2019 to 2022 i want to say what talk about it's so strange sometimes in the middle of nowhere in dogway there there will just be a bunch of random portapodes so it seems like there's this weird connection maybe there's a above ground testing of derivative technologies or assets of that of course you know facilities are brought out for people this guy the the second contractor he maintained relationships with a bunch of quote unquote graybeards at dogway he guessed these guys are batel but they don't wear bat they don't say hello my name is Jeffrey i'm from batel memorial institute or lockied martin one his does his gray beard babysitter who would kind of have to walk him through would always appear fatigued after sometimes he'd meet him and this guy would when he would appear fatigued this person in the front of mine would say you know what happened or he's so tired he would say oh we had the triangles out again last night this guy was saying that they were would stay out all night doing triangle testing whoa crazy and you trust this guy the the ms guy who saw the craft absolutely yeah the second guy who's a contractor i don't really have a reason not to trust him yet he has supplied me with his photo i d badge of his contract time at at dogway well shown me direct evidence that he worked out there i've i've i've no reason not to trust that guy wow and and dogway for the basic context for the audience so it's in it's in Utah right and it they call it area 52 and it's sort of dubbed that the culinary 52 but i don't like when people call it area 52 area 52 is the tona potest range okay tona potest range is literally named area 52 oh interesting and then dogway are there rumors that some assets were moved from area 51 of the 90s they are starting in 1990s because there was a large article i can't remember it might have been pop sigh or pop mechanics it was a huge expose on like area 51 and how assets might have been moved over to area 52 this mysterious new place in dugway what's interesting about that article is i have some pictures of it one of my videos the article has a bunch of pictures of like i think like either s r 71 or f 117 a night hog but also has a sticky note on it that says like call bobby ray in men it's super it's a super weird meta thing whoa but even like edger fuchet whose primary testimony in 1998 revolves around the t r 3 b talks about hey you know a lot of projects were moved out to dogway proving out and makes sense let more hot less high profile but i but it what's weird to me is that the Nevada test and training range would have better infrastructure to house such programs yeah as far as i understand there's numerous sites across the nttr that can house craft underground facilities uh even helicopters possibly even hangar bays built into the side of mountains or floors do you think that some of these defense bases are co located deliberately with and this is going to sound really trippy but like natural portals or something and the reason i ask this is because area 51 itself was formed at the Nevada test site or next to the Nevada test site Nevada test site was the site of the most domestic atomic tests in the early 50s if you read you know robberk hastings UFOs and nukes where UFOs show up most it's around nuclear sites all the first crashes are around either high power radar or nuclear sites you know roswell site of the you know largest nuclear stockpile in the us there's an emergency meeting in 1949 i think killing you know that robberk hastings also writes about between basically you know i think army counter intel you know air force office of special investigations you know cia like they're freaking out around UFOs showing up all over nuclear sites and then you have the jake barber testimony where it's like there's some sort of mental connection you know with the UFO and so if i were studying UFOs i would look for places that are weird to begin with like skin walk orange and maybe skin walker inches like the limited hangout version of this you know and i would put my defense stuff there and i would try to engage in the weird UFO shit where it's already kind of happening well correctly if i'm wronged in chick barber talk about some of the like light orbs or weird non really physically identifiable crafty to over the range would like almost phase into mountains are like disappear in rock formations yes and you have a ross colt are doing his investigative research at Bradshaw ranch in Sedona Arizona we have all this weird stuff i think it's like supposedly associated with the university but you have all these kind of armed guards there yeah you know and it's yeah and you and they and multiple people in the area see the crafts going into this mountain yeah sentals of ether talks about that to jake barbers book so i'm wondering if there's this weird co-location of like paranormal stuff is already happening at this place let's study it and instantiate it you know and and and and how's it in some official defense capacity yeah i think i think there's probably three possibilities and they're all super likely and they probably all are a thing you house these sites by already weird locations with activity you know maybe if that forechan whistleblower is to be believed in there's places within the Bahamas that that large hamburger shaped mothership that 3d prints UFOs to spec houses a gosh i don't know maybe they say the Bahamas i think yeah like bermuda i think is a area frequency well gosh it makes sense to well you have magnetic anomalies there hot tech is in the Bahamas weapons testing it makes sense to have that there yeah and then that's that's one thing that's probably true to that's probably true put these installations in the middle of nowhere so you can bring the triangles out where people are in around for hundreds of miles and three hide stuff in plain sight yeah wouldn't be surprised if there are access to stiffs uh sapf's that are literally in corporate parks or shopping centers interesting do you have any anything specific there or that you're thinking about not specifics that i want to talk about but i just i wouldn't be surprised if you know in the future if more locations are spoken about that some of these places are in like in plain sight do you think there's anything near la x uh maybe well yeah yeah because it's it's near like it's very close to the antelope valley and in in in in in Los Angeles there's numerous ffrdcs numerous locations and do defense laboratories i would not be surprised if there's a large infrastructure underground there how many UFOs do you think are sitting in hangars across the united states i don't know if you look to the what uh parlor spoke about before he went public he would say over his specific range one to two a year that number seems high for me it seems that seems quite high maybe he also meant that they were downing derivative vehicles to test their hardness to the dog whistle and the weird or one to two a year might include just random material yeah yeah yeah isn't like the whole craft or intake from other locations that they have can have the infrastructure to house the craft in there and how put off i think stated a number on jorigan i think he literally like 12 to 15 i think something like that i think that's low that seems a little low to me to 40 to 50 okay maybe 50 to 100 because i do think there's validity to the the u s has a constructed offensive weaponry against UFOs you know if we look at the aztec crash a case u chris ramsey and me also think all think extremely highly of yes uh one of the prevailing theories is that the uh the lash up radar network which was constructed over uh new mexico to protect against soviet bomber attacks which by the way jandru kissner spoke about high powered radar facilities messing with the u fos and in his 1994 disclosures but one of the prevailing aztec theories is that these super high powered really weird radar networks there might have been high intensive microwave systems that messed with the craft and brought it down and then in uh fast forward to 1983 i think there's an argument that can be made that in the uh strategic defense initiative or star wars program under Ronald Reagan that they will fallantly in target hardening program or the particle beam weapons program where meant to be space based systems that utilized a microwave weaponry to to shoot down UFOs well this was the weirdest part of the malmgren story that i you know again i hold him in super high steam and i i think there's a lot of weirdness around i feel like there was a coordinated information operation to kind of take him out to be honest they changed this week idiot page yeah that yeah that was like the the blog post was like we asked xyz person and they hadn't heard of him over and over again which is like you're talking about like this knock yeah who like is was clearly like i do i don't doubt his connections for a second right the guy was connected at extremely elite levels he knew a lot of very interesting people and i think he was in a lot of the rooms that he said he was in yeah so i think that was kind of kind of um you know bs so but the weirdest part of malmgren's testimony which didn't even occur directly with me he was apparently again final few days on his deathbed speaking to pipa his daughter and he told her that he had seen an interview with the surviving a one of the surviving alien beings from rosswell which is fascinating like like a recorded interview with this being and that the being suggested that we use like high power radar to take out crafts yeah and then you get into these weird like are we in some sort of like are we being used in some sort of like as a proxy in like a larger cosmic war between these extra terrestrial beings and he was involved i believe in the strategic defense initiative yeah yeah and if you look at blue guilt triple prime it was kind of a proto sdi strategic defense initiative thing that he was doing it was missile defense missile defense was this big issue at the time because he couldn't really kinetically like you know we didn't have like interceptors that could like knock into like you know like like rush Soviet missiles right and so you know in that case it was like this x ray burst that would like take out the surrounding missiles really really interesting there's this like Rand corporation paper i think kind of scoping it out before they actually execute it on it in 63 and essay i see was up to the the gills working on on those programs as well for sdi yeah yeah yeah they were one of the largest contracts right for sdi what's interesting to me is that there there are some theories out there that the actual idea for sdi originated with ison Howard not Reagan and then of course what was established under ison Howard while the n ro you know there's a theory that could be constructed that as soon as we got the n ro up there with their taken over the corona satellite program and all sorts of keyhole satellites they immediately started getting a bunch of imagery and signals intelligence of a bunch of UFOs yeah well now you have Beatrice v o re al coming out of this peer reviewed paper if this is wild to me because it's like you academia has nothing to say and and kudos to you know Brian Keating who's actually usually kind of more on the anti UFO side but he's like you know this has to be contended with you subena hawston folder a few people with real credentials and you know larger platforms saying Beatrice v o re al who's Stockholm University you know astronomer with actually physics background as well she the palmar plates palmar is this observatory in um california it was the most prominent observatory in use in the fifties between forty nine and fifty seven pre-sputnik going up into space you have over a hundred thousand transients light reflecting objects it's insane and nobody has a good debunk to this day you know and it's pure of you and is there data that donald menzel in the the menzel the menzel plates he was one of the ones kind of stripping some of these plates out not only is there like that a rumor that is from a book by doorky off light who became a respected astronomer in her own right uh what was was at Harvard with uh donald mezelle and and writes about this and by the well donald menzel not only held extremely high clearances and just about every agency you could you know name he was rumored to be you know majestic twelve um i believe kennedy while he was at a Harvard had an interest in like astrophysics and so he had some you know relationship with don menzel but don menzel was also head of the and i always bought this but the the the earliest version of nist so it's like the the bureau of like standards in the u.s so it's like like you know the the organization that like creates like the the you know encryption standards and like you know like the you know decides that we're not going on the metric system whatever like the kind of the most reality management style job you could think of and he's the guy caught destroying plates by somebody who's very reputable door at off-lights so yeah it's weird and there were only like there weren't that many uh observatories in you know at the time that were even functioning and so i think if you get one other observatory to do like if it's if it's pretty correlated they have transients also from 1949 and 1957 that mat line up with what Beatrice finds to me that's like game over yeah literally like you're talking about like light reflecting objects that aren't comets meteorized you know meteors asteroids that it's not satellites like she's clearly debunked all of that enough to like you know average astronomer right them to like peer review it and like that seems like a you know an easy first-order debunk that she's getting around so this is crazy news and already the armchair debunk is to say it was project mogul balloons yeah is that is it somebody say that that's absurd yeah is they're just going back to the rosy ball playbook oh my god yeah that yeah that Beatrice is doing the lords work right now amazing let me ask you this because you were talking about the number of crash that have craft yeah craft that have crashed yeah if you had to rank let's just say your top five UFO crash approval events and in favorite most credible just yep yeah most credible what would you say those are your top five i would say i would say put Aztec up there for sure yeah five witnesses you have the lash-up radar system you have you know clear obstruction with silas newton and and Leo Gabauer and stuff so i'd put that up there i would now put magenta up there and i don't know you know depending on when this comes out i'll either tease here now or this will will have come out already but mary coney who invented the radio yeah this is like getting like often hymers like you know offspring saying that he worked on you have those mary coney's grandson i was able to track him down and get an interview as a prince prince mary coney and he was like my grandfather was on cabinet rs 33 this cabinet with musilini and they were working on the extraterrestrial issue in nineteen thirty three detailing government setup this a group of secret research thirty three cabinet where marcooni was the chair was the president and decofated me was the vice president and they made some switches and studies on this phenomenon because nineteen thirty three they say that in barais and all of Italy there was some apparitions of so-called UFOs and magenta at all or do you know where yes but is it it's north east Italy of east yes but is it it's north of Milan in lumbadi and between lumbadi and a benician land he couldn't go much deeper than that but that's fascinating you would now have archival and you know stuff that corroborates rs 33 existing and you know so so i think the magenta and then you have david grashute to me i hold in highest esteem when it comes to you if a whistleblower so i would i'd put magenta up there now i really like the nineties brookhaven crash i think that's really fast yeah it's a great case there's a really interesting testimony from a sheriff around that that you know i think is very strong and then i to me pattern matches because they have cosmotron the particle accelerator i think particle accelerators and nuclear seem to attract UFOs so i think that's up there for me i would say kexberg with the air guacar you know connection i think is really fascinating and then as a final one i don't know uh you know i'm interested in the 1897 one i don't think there's a ton of evidence yeah i don't think there's a ton of evident i mean that wouldn't be one of my highest kind of conviction ones i don't know what would you say beyond beyond that uh definitely a steck in magenta i'm with her with you kexberg as well i love the 1974 koyama into mexico crash there's not a ton of supporting evidence but the story there if true is very very disturbing yeah and also pretty interesting just the way that apparently that didn't that report is a cia directed like logistics plan like the oj would do to gather rapid reaction teams and assets to go retrieve the calf craft as well as providing overhead intelligence of the mexican team trying to get the craft that's a great case the mexican team was either killed by a cb or by a like leak within the craft or the americans killed him which is far more likely in my opinion yeah yeah maybe that ties over in the sentals of ether uh kill other very good soldiers and koyama mexico wow oh interesting yeah you might have been writing about that cryptically i'm gonna i'm gonna by the way i'm gonna go with five as wagen yes okay i was gonna say wait yeah wait you know i can't stop there yeah way gets up there uh there's a ton of rich stories i kexberg it's alive like that's right i'm thinking about like one through four you don't have anybody alive talking about the retrieval like wagen i mean that seems like super you have a person who was part of the retrieval then you know i i think the the jake barber thing is really interesting as well i just i want more details right i wish he could he i wish he could have shared more he's said he's held back more than he said mm-hmm which is frustrating but as a as another one i'd throw in yeah kingman of course with dr. wang oh yeah kingman kingman to agree i would put that up there too and how steinman writes about wang also being involved with the aztec crash and how wang is this figure that you know you can never really track down besides some right path stuff he died pretty early on what an incredible it's it's it's it's it's an amazing story so you have um our operation upshot na'hole not whole which was a test in 1953 i think it was Nevada test site right or Arizona it was Arizona yes i thought it was Nevada but it the crash ended up occurring in kingman i'm pretty sure it's right yeah it occurred just a yeah it was close but yeah um and then as like Arthur Stansell yep who was uh who has records to show him at right pet yeah right airfield at the time and operation upshot na'hole and operation upshot na'hole he was there and they were testing like i i believe part of operation upshot na'hole was like how the surrounding environment would get affected by these detonations it would blast nukes from artillery crazy and it was like surrounding neighborhoods what happened yeah really crazy that was about the time we we'd blow up atomic weapons and send in army regiments right after the blast so nuts man so so yeah so he is then like always like blindfolded and he's like he's like drives like into kingman Arizona and then he sees like a little being in a in a in a caught or something yeah it's like a makeshift tent that there's a tiny little brownish being a possibly charred and mangled because he was sent in to do a ballistic trajectory analysis that's right because the craft had theoretically impacted at incredible speeds and disrupted much of the surrounding area but the craft itself wasn't damaged and the craft itself i think looked like two pans like fuse together and and so Arthur Stansell got on record at right pet and then here's what's really interesting air can rewing is this sort of famed guy who's had a special projects at right right airfield and i believe he studied uh in Vienna with Victor Schauberger yes he did yeah yeah really interesting this famous kind of Austrian you know naturalist who believe in this impeller propulsion system and out of his own flying saucer designs and there's this question of like did air can rewain exist and you have some evidence that maybe ah you did exist yeah oh yes he you know he he existed he existed if you look through the detick the defense technical information center you can find actual um you can find uh and old engineering documents with air can rewain on it but we might have a new kind of break in the case of actually finding photos of air can rewain at right Patterson back in the 1950s if we can do that i i think that would be get those photos and actually put kind of a face to the name and location and location that's going to open up new avenues that's a big deal pouring wing and i was i was maybe playing a little coy i could say definitively he was real because i have a researcher friend who's in touch with his daughter now so like yeah he was he was a real guy and then he was really interesting about that uh William Steinman book asked him he says um that air can rewain was a race from the internet he was the only guy that when Steinman because Steinman was a great researcher he would go knocking on everybody's door and he was trying to figure out what was up with this air can rewain guy who has had a special projects at right airfield then gets moved to Curtlyn Air Force Base yeah and he's like who is this guy yeah yeah now sandia and so he's like what's going on with this guy and he keeps getting these slaps on the wrist like don't look at him don't look at him he goes i figured out he reported to a guy named h a k yep and guess who h a k is kissger yeah cennery a kissger and there was like a source that uh Steinman was talking to had information about wing that went cold on him well he showed up a Maria wing i believe he met his wife yeah and Maria wing like yeah i think it flipped on him or something Steinman is a treasure can we the Aztec book how Steinman went to colorado through court records to find out how kabauer and silas newton were were unfairly attacked in their court case is astan as astonishing you know uh silas newton and lioghobauer were convicted of fraud for perpetuating the doodle bug device which has very real uh historical significance in anti-summery and warfare detection world war two by um spearheaded by vandivar bush but that even in their court case there was a a similar not the same device supplanted into the court case to kind of frame them as kooks and frauds and Steinman did all of this he went through he was also a pioneer um talking to Eric Walker he was he was a pioneer on on numerous cases numerous cases and and even scully you know the case behind the flying saucer like the you know kind of original like archetypal UFO book that that outlines this kind of Aztec crash he was trusted with a lot of like celebrity sort of like really sensitive information and so whoever doctor g was this sort of like you know um consortium of scientists yeah exactly all of whom worked on anti-summerine programs under vandivar bush so wild so wild yeah scottons Suzanne Ramsey have really they deserve all the credit for digging up this like kind of like short list of like eight to nine scientists that likely are being represented in the pseudonym doctor g yeah and they're getting in touch with with uh silas newton silas newton by the way was worth I don't know if you know this 20 million dollars at the time really rich oil man yeah so that's like a few hundred million now yeah and pro golfer too I didn't know that's a good pro or semi pro golfer so no reason to lie about you know no reason to con anybody with the doodle bug no reason to lie about a UFO crash like but also in their court case uh gab hour and and newton summoned multiple witnesses who spoke to the doodle bugs efficacy and finding oil deposits under their system I can't remember the exact acronym I think it was like map or something but like a magnetic resonance thing to to to detect detect cavities underground that they actually found success with yeah interesting well I know he was really interested in magnetism yes yes and and uh silas newton his diaries would talk about willber be smith canadian radio engineer who spearheaded canada's first project on UFOs who was told by robert sarbacher you know a consultant to the defense research boards be headed by vanavar bush that UFOs existed their modus operandi was unknown but efforts were going under vanavar bush to study them and it was the most highly kept secret in the united states government classified even higher than the man had project all these sort of interconnected things that are so interesting so interesting I think yeah I wonder if one of these people you know like sarbacher has a son yeah I wonder if we get in touch I'd like to I always try and talk to people's kids like I've tried to get in contact with uh dr. Eric walkers kids yeah just no avail don't hear anything so what are all of the locations in the us that you think how's UFOs so it seems like if we're looking at the continental united states there's a there's a big divide right there's the there's the west of the country which has lower population density which uh seems more suitable to um rd t and e work research development test evaluation you have massive ranges dugway and then about a test and training range on which you could test derivative technologies if we're looking out east I of course we talked about the out tech Atlantic undersea test evaluation command which is a navy major range and test facility base uh potuxent river as well um I think whistleblower Matthew brown talked about a mentum hangers at at potuxent river housing some anomalous stuff and remember e g and g eventually transitioned into potuxent river wasn't um sal pais also packs river yeah he was at pack striver when he filed his patents yeah and his patent seemed like how a ufo might work yeah like an internal mass reduction trying your craft yeah that's weird and with with Matthew brown I'm not sure I agree with him about a mentum hangers part of what I part of what I have come to to strongly believe and would contest with that statement is I think the owners of the hangers are are ffrdc's are the ones who managed it and you know might or hangers yes but this is part of a a theory I have about why the Conan blue p sap failed I I think there's a very strict chain of command of people say the legacy programs have no oversight I disagree completely I think they have alternative oversight that is extremely strictly managed and I don't think contractors are necessarily allowed to have hangers storing craft I think it is the ffrdc's because it's that go co government operated con government owned contractor operated method that you know if crap really hits the fan the usg can take possession of it if it needs to and you you wouldn't think the dode or I see would allow technologies and craft of unknown origins to sit in contractor hands uncontested but so packs river I'd imagine miter has quite a bit of involvement out there in packs river the big the crown jewel of out east is crystal city in in virginia there was one first hand legacy guy a friend of mine I was speaking to once and he said that the answer to most of what you're looking for is in crystal city virginia really crystal city houses eight of ten of the us's biggest defense contractors numerous ffrdc's this crystal city in Arlington or yeah near Arlington and then of course you got that chantilly region with the nro headquarters and essay I see headquarters and and all that but I imagine I imagine crystal city is likely where I guess that the lifeblood of legacy programs is executed the framework the agreements what contractors are rotated through what programs are rotated through where you know a lot of the bigot list accesses is it doesn't isn't john Peterson based out there the kind of the Arlington institute yeah yeah futuristic studies or whatever yeah of course bdm the claim was out there where the advanced theoretical physics working group was held and interesting so that's where that group was with the help put off and okey shenan yeah looking into uf s and then a under wash and dc the Pentagon I have reason to believe there's a very large underground facility not the nmcc the national national something command center the nmcc it's not that it's a it's a massive facility deep beneath the Pentagon that likely houses some sort of of very clandestine office that at least in in in years past would manually process read on access to us apps weird plays deep under deep under the Pentagon there's some interesting data to confirm this it's existence and and but it's of course it's still can be contested out and then of course lastly we have the y-12 complex in Oak Ridge Tennessee which hey Sean Kirkpatrick why did you run to Oak Ridge after after you fled from arrow why did your position which was like you know director for intelligence programs at Oak Ridge why it's something similar to that why was that pulled off their page and why in 2025 has shown Kirkpatrick's LLC non-linear solution subcontracting subcontracting under miter for U.S. space com yet but so clear that arrow is like basically counter oh absolutely and Jim Lacatsky sort of said this on this last weaponized podcast but it's like I mean I think Glenn Gaffney was the director of science and technology for for the CIA was on the board of arrow like maybe it still be for all I know you know it's sort of it's like yeah like the Carlisle group or Ronald mulchery of the Carlisle group help and set up arrow and he and Sean Kirkpatrick are kind of smirk on each other saying there's nothing to you and it's being of somebody scrubbing their resume you pointed this out in a great video Ronald mulchery you know the basically created the auspices under which arrow was created also was a board director of a battal memorial institute and and deleted that office linked in scrubbed it and part of the Carlisle group yeah that's right I think don't quote me on it but I'm almost positive he was also part of miter that's create miter will show up everywhere and anywhere with Sean Kirkpatrick I'm not sure if he had exposure to legacy programs before his work at arrow one could probably argue with his positions in in space calm and with intelligence he might have been exposed to programs of immense or sick in satellites and overhead collection platforms actually collecting UFOs there's a big misconception there by by the way people think that like the overhead satellites you know NRO satellites are just picking up live feeds of UFOs no this stuff is all parsed into data all the data is transmitted from the satellites electronically so a program like a maculate constellation or a legacy program satellite because a maculate constellation isn't a legacy program it was a it was a reactionary use app established in 2017 would a clip out data that would probably depict anomalies like a UFO and sequestered into mcom or another legacy program site so who knows if Sean Kirkpatrick had previous exposure to UFO legacy programs but a strong argument could be made that whilst he was head of arrow he was he was retroactively briefed into various aspects of legacy programs so he would know what to lie about and the other historical yeah and the I think the larger point is like the it's just such a conflict of interest like if you have some independent review board like for the people of the US around whether there is non-human intelligence any of this stuff exists don't pick the guy who at 17 one you know I know or from the DOE from the Department of Energy at Brookhaven National Labs and ever since has been doing contract work in that area like pick somebody who's gonna be impartial it's senior research scientist to essay to yeah there you go in a row you know specifically I think back to then you must ask the question what did arrow lie about in that testimony one specific specific example we know for a fact that was lied about in the arrow historic report volume one was Michael Herrera's testimony we actually pride his MFR from arrow is member random for record because the arrow historical reports at Herrera spoke about an extraterrestrial spacecraft in US special forces neither of which he he spoke about so if Sean Patrick was retroactively briefed into parts of legacy programs just to know enough to you know obfuscate the report that means was if he lied about Herrera's testimony was did he does he have knowledge of direct action crash trevil personnel interesting yeah and you have meetings you pictures of him in like a meeting with Brandon Fugel yeah I was giving like oh the one yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah weird kind of look over shoulder at the guy who's taking the photo of him yeah and you know so clearly he was being briefed on some of this stuff you know earlier than he likes to admit and anybody who talks to him so he's awful yeah he's pregnant and he seems like he just you know you mentioned this as well in your video he will adamantly say extraterrestrial he will never say nonhuman where yeah maybe we don't have a smoking gun that these things are from another specific planet yeah remember that David Grush B. Roll footage with Ross Colt Hart when he speaks about biological he says presumably extraterrestrial but not a for sure confirmation that's why they say non-prozumably extraterrestrial but not for sure yeah no I mean I think it's hard to know I think maybe the biggest misconception of all in this whole disclosure conversation is the idea that the government has a monopoly on metaphysical truth right like they have there's somebody there who like has this core theory of how the world works that is way more accurate than somebody on the outside I think they have a ton of asymmetric data on this issue for sure and we are there's a lot of it is worthy of disclosure and this needs to be you know outside of stuff that's like extremely you know like weaponizable at like low cost or whatever like everything else should be like completely disclosed it's the nature of reality but like we would still have to piece together the nature of reality right I don't think the government's sitting on that no it it seems like they're entire as David Grushes asymmetrical warfare advantages and fetalistic dominance yes that's what they they're not out there philosophizing as to like the larger truths of these beings as being a Shankar Patrick I'm reminded to when Susan Goe was asked if by a FOIA researcher or somebody if they could amend her statement about no extraterrestrials to include non-human intelligence to which she said no you absolutely cannot amend my statement to include we have no evidence of non-human intelligence but a piece of work that's crazy controls the lease of Sean Kirkpatrick well if that's not a tell I don't know what it's like that's that's crazy that shows a lot of insecurity right but we were talking about facilities here she ran sionkart stuff yeah she wrote papers on sionkart just like Sean Kirkpatrick wrote papers on influence of people in like social networks and stuff it's like social engineering yeah just like arrow hired a sand corp to which specializes in insider threat protection whistleblower leaks Tim Phillips went blabbering on a podcast saying sand corp was hired to connect arrow to subject matter experts that's not in sand corp scope of operations so I I'm not sure I believe that but yeah arrow was doing all sorts of dubious activities don't don't you find yourself caught those sometimes between these obfuscators of truth who are clearly bad actors like everybody were just we just mentioned clearly a bad actor and then some people on the pro UFO side who also seem like there at times bad actors yeah and so it's like this we're like flinked by like bad vibe it's a minefield it's a minefield and and like and then you ask the question like are we being led down this path where like the whole framework of how we're thinking about this is like messed up because you you clearly do have bad actors on both sides I think so yeah control disclosure that that's why like if there's one person whose word I would take at face value would be David grush yeah he does not seem to be giving some sort of limited disclosure he seems watching anything with him you can get a very clear depiction of what his character is and how his brain operates and you can kind of infer exactly why he's doing what he's doing at great personal cost to himself kind of directly answering as much as he possibly can speak it on all aspects of the subject you know nonhuman intelligence presumably extraterrestrial how these programs are funded yeah it's so forth and people I think I think on the pro set per David grush most of the whistleblowers most of them and there's probably some exceptions are good actors yeah yeah the whistleblowers like like the guys especially who like experienced a thing or like haplessly were in they were tasked to investigate like they were grush or they you know and they felt they like fell into like you know seeing things that they they couldn't look away for or folks on the SSCI I would put in that category as well this is like committee on intelligence who are tasked with investigating this absolutely people like Kirk McConnell and some other staffers and yeah who you know definitely knew a lot about these things and provided a real pipeline from legacy programs to Congress so that these guys could show up and skiffs and stuff he's for sure and then at the same time they're all sorts of weird you know guys who like they pop up in like the pro UFO world and then they're they're also doing some other sketchy stuff in Intel world and you're like yeah yeah limited disclosure promising researchers and folks various things and then doing other things and yeah it's just it's it's it's it's kind of a mess it's a mess and all I'm saying is it's like I think it's easy to go after the obfuscating guys ad hominem and then it's harder to go after the pro guys ad hominem because like I think both of us are like pro disclosure yes and so I'm like if you're gonna be like a weirdo and like other aspects of your life but you're like you're pushing like like the the nature of reality are the stakes yeah I don't fucking care about your like other weird yet I'm not gonna get caught up in that because I'm gonna get distracted from the truth if I get caught up in that well the thing about managed it like I think Carl Nell you know who's always been you know to me a good guy and like my I've enjoyed my interactions with him I find him to be extremely intellectually just brilliant but he just went on a podcast and he said disclosure is dead I guess the possible that I've got is that this recent cycle of disclosure that we might say started in 2017 with the navy videos and luos zondo coming out and and as a whistleblower making various assertions that that that cycle of disclosure is effectively ended with the failure to pass the the uap disclosure act and with with the sort of the fourth or third in the series of hearings on the topic that I think increasingly have moved the media less and less and I think you are gonna end up there if you attempt to do the manage the manage disclosure thing is the most sycophine yeah exercise and like I think maybe the most telling thing in the the not this last congressional testimony with Dylan Borland but the one before that the closed one with like elizondo ovilob and Eric Davis Eric Davis said the NHI themselves are controlling disclosure yeah which is this logical fallacy like how do you control disclosure in a world where those superior beings exist yeah they're obviously gonna be managing the process boy that event was a mess was it not that was a total graph and the crop circle or what I gosh yeah and yeah speaking of Eric Davis it's the same thing I think he's provided some extremely valuable intelligence I I think the fundamental facts of the Wilson Davis memoir are very true in in the sense that Thomas Wilson was denied access into legacy programs while deputy director of the DIA but then like I believe that Eric Davis has lied to my face about the the success of derivative technologies and alien reproduction vehicles I think he has as close as we are now told me outright the fallacies about that whether it's he's just too proud to admit that he doesn't doesn't understand understand the science or more likely in my opinion it's a classic program protection strategy I it it seems like with a lot of the most famous characters in in this sub space their disclosures come with strings attached or yeah some things pocketed away or compartmentalized or half true yeah it's interesting also how like certain cases are like like with Eric Davis he seems like you know I talked to him about the Aztec crash right so dogmatically opposed to that crash right and if you look at that with an open mind first principles in fact I think on the the Wikipedia is still Aztec crash hopes it is like you know literally in the name and but then if you look at it with an open mind you meet Scott and Suzanne Ramsey who are these really amazing people North Carolina independent researchers who have small business and have poured I don't want to say $600,000 plus into this investigation over decades and they have so much evidence I mean I went to the crash site with them yeah this thing happened there something happened there and I don't know if it's dogmatism on Eric Davis's part I don't know where he's coming from or what the deal is but then conversely he also is very pro the 1950 for del Rio Texas crash incident which that's a huge can of worms because there's two crashes they're 1955 Robert Willingham in del Rio Texas and the 1954 del 1950 del Rio crash which is actually L-Indio slash Guerrero Texas Mexico which is only really talked about in the Eisenhower briefing document of the majestic 12 documents so he'll kind of a dogmatically shoot down Aztec but support a very convoluted case without much evidence to to support or even investigate or chew into it yeah it's tough I mean it's funny you got me thinking when you asked my top five crashes like the confidence level drops off a ton for me after maybe number seven or eight or something because you have all these like Leonard shrinkfield cases with like it's just pseudonyms and you're like I don't know you know like like even you know even the Lawrence Livermore thing you you mentioned like you know maybe that has you know a name attached to it in a guy and you know 1990 or one or whatever that you know came out but it's some of these crashes just feel like really like I you know the magenta thing I now have Mark Coney's grandson but we have no living witnesses right yeah just it's tough with some of these it's the same thing with Ryan Woods excellent book magick eyes only there's really intriguing cases that you know likely have some validity to them but there's not enough to really sift through and chew through there's not enough people to speak to there's not enough named characters I mean I'm sure there's quite a few crash retrievals in Ryan Woods book magick eyes only that are legit there's just not enough information to parse through or form a strong opinion on yeah exactly it's tough what do you think like this feels like it can't be containable over a long enough period of time like I guess this brings like this this this other like kind of more like deeper ontological question of like are there like reality gatekeepers like where these crashes happen and like okay maybe we have some immaculate constellation the NRO has like you know first first first first access you know eyes on all this stuff then maybe you have some like OGA style thing with through the CIA maybe it's not OGA you know anymore but like you know some rapid response teams or whatever like you say you have all of that you would still expect some really hard concrete proof in the form of materials ending up in civilian hands like at some point soon you know yeah so yeah I would hope so I I don't know how likely it would be that a bunch of civilians are going to come upon a crash retrieval you know maybe most crash trivels occur today because the crafter shot down do you think that's the case I think that it's light it's likely many of them are but then there's also like the donation hypothesis of craft left yeah for people and why aren't why are those left in the middle of the desert and so forth and and then maritime crash retrieval that only you know like the Baltic sea anomaly if that's a craft that only like well equipped well-funded organizations are going to be able to retrieve and I I genuinely think that since the 1960 the NRO and other combat support agencies like the NGA and then direct action elements like a tier one or tier one adjacent assets and and CIA elements and all sorts of intelligence and DOD elements will be first on the scene even even halfway across the world yeah yeah if there's a if there's a crash in India in the mountains of India I think the US is is going to get there before any sort of you know local authorities or local onsite personnel do you think like what why do you think the US is so far ahead of other countries when it comes to disclosure like it feels like Russia China have said very little about this stuff is it just kind of an open system closed system China will just kill you right and also like the I think that the way but why isn't that because like more institutional components of the United States have started to push disclosure why is there no one in China being like you know maybe this should actually be good for us to have some sort of like limited disclosure maybe we talk about the managed disclosure people in the US why aren't there equivalent they're still on the back foot uh-huh maybe they're still trying to adapt reverse engineer technologies to their ISR platforms into night air space maybe they know because of just how spine and infiltration works that the US is far more advanced so if they open up the can of worms and we have a global disclosure sir sure uh Russia may have a couple tic tacs up in their mountains and and China may have some recovered vehicles and made some progress and adapting electro optic cloaking but they know that we are the big baddies and if if the whole can of worms is open we are positioned as a the global superpower for the next 10,000 years interesting yeah it stands to reason if these countries know they're on the back foot which of course they would be because there's been a lot of political instability in Russian China over the years without the same sort of of of access and and superpower leading that we have had I mean for example the US has been the big bad political superpower so you know with five eyes retrieval groups we have elements all over the world where if a craft crashes we probably get first dibs yeah do you think you know because you could make a flip side argument to that which is like you have a strongman like Putin and GG named himself dictator for life I think in 2016 or something where there's this long planning element this long time horizon ability to make decisions um you know I think in China it's like reinstate the sort of celestial empire in 2049 you know um and you know uh you know obviously there are plans to probably overtake Taiwan and like the you know the next few years maybe and um and so in the US you you have like you know this kind of you know temporary this temp you know that that that gets into office maybe they get two terms if they're lucky or whatever um so do you do you think you know there's john Alexander who's in and around UFO lore like you know up to his neck and he you know he said that the majestic 12 you know in like the elite governance system is around UFOs uh are kind of like uh almost euphemisms for continuity of government programs so this idea that you know I think in Eisenhower's time you had the 54 12 committee which is this interagency coordination committee to kind of allow for plausible deniability if the president wanted some dirty work done that he didn't want to be involved with that turned into I believe the 303 committee the committee of 40 do you think and then we hear about people like Dick Cheney Henry Kissinger these types who like if there was a government behind the government those guys would be involved in that government like yeah Kissinger was doing all sorts of rogue shit was playing Nixon like a fiddle you could say the same thing with Cheney vis-a-vis bush in American foreign policy do you think there's a government behind our government doing the long time horizon planning on the UFO issue probably because it in the way legacy programs work it's a parallel chain of command and parallel chain of oversight that exists right next to you know the executive branch possibly partly within the executive branch within us do d i c systems self-funded intelligence agencies they can do what they want they don't adhere to the whims of the president um so by all intents and purposes these these you know if you look at Catherine Austin Fitz talking about 17 to 21 trillion dollars embedded in the US black budget just since like the 1990s alone these the legacy programs are better funded better technology more powerful than the United States government so this essentially is a shadow government and like a deep state for all intents and purposes and maybe that is also why Russia and China are far behind us on the topic there seems to be far more a far more homogenous group within them you know uh Xi Jinping and Putin are like the modelists of those countries they are those two are probably spearheading their own respective countries reverse engineering and retrieval programs the US are I mean our our government is kind of on its heels against this parallel system that can control these programs that can harness us assets whenever at once in theater or at home uh can fire on other blue assets and can fund itself better and faster and can infiltrate anywhere and can deploy men at arms it's just it's a it's a very it's very disturbing the implications of the power of legacy programs yeah so we mentioned a lot of these places that probably house UFOs and you talk about historical corroboration for that um what about places in the United States that house alien bodies are you confident in any of those locations probably by its description that would probably be dugway okay that'd probably be the one of the biggest places as well as maybe like Fort Detrick Maryland wherever there's betel and some of betels like biological focused FFRDCs I can't remember the acronyms right now but wherever but betel is located I would highly believe that these are the places that where bodies are stored you know historically bodies were kept on ice at right patterns and flown from Roswell but with the evolution of legacy programs there are probably there are which is very scary to think about there are probably laboratories that house to see synonym and biologics are you in touch with anybody who has seen an alien body yeah and and what do they say about the bodies well and are they cryonically frozen or they're like they're these people weren't like abducted they're like seen in a government context like yeah bodies are being stored yeah what are we are during a crash what always comes up is the the the gray aliens it's a very like the wrap around eyes almond shaped heads large black eyes gray tan brownish skin it's it's that's that's the common truth specifically in an egg yeah in a in a man egg that somebody was present for a retrieval for so what about not on a retrieval what about these bodies stored in military facilities yeah place out in California oh an unnamed place a place that doesn't have its own designation I don't even know who the heck runs it well like one of those in plain sight things and like like you know corporate they wear I I'm not sure exactly where so Cal okay so Cal region not antelope valley but antelope valley probably deals with tech more but and you think they're and you feel confident in this whistleblower not whistleblower this person he's contacted you yeah yeah yeah that's the person I would like stake my like entire rep on can you say anything high level about them or they don't they don't want to be talked about okay and I got I like I got to respect that sure sure I did you get in touch with them or did they get I got to be then this person's a personal hero to me and I just got a okay they don't want to be talked about I yeah yes well it's a good sign that you're not you know I think you have to be skeptical if somebody inbound hits you up more than yeah if you reach out oh yeah 95% of the people I speak to I have sought them out that person who I've I talked to you about that was on a crash retrieval team or claim they have I I spent a year trying to track them down well I spent for and they do not want to be contacted this it takes months and months to form a relationship with these people I know it's a good time when I contact them and I just I I'm usually really upfront with people and they just say how did you get my name who are you and stop talking to me yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah well it's like they're not denying the claims you know yeah like they're clearly like they they know they're they were involved a lot of crazy a lot of them are smart and at first we'll say like I have no knowledge or ex but like really like what you would expect to find on the terms and conditions on on yeah like an agreement for an Apple product yeah I have no knowledge of extraterrestrials I have not seen bodies nor have I seen craft I have not been to military installations are disclosed unauthorized disclosures yeah this is kind of a crazy question and maybe I'm maybe this is self-defeating for me but I feel like it's an important question to ask because it's hard for me to comment on my own stuff I'm probably biased somewhat and you know I want to respect anybody that comes on the show who do you think is the least believable person that's come on my show oh that's a good question because I can ask you can gas me up all day but I want you to I want you to straw man let's chew through that actually because the top three best would be grush malmgren and dan Sherman uh-huh those are the three best yeah yeah yeah uh okay I'm trying to think who would be the least I'm just trying to think who like who has the most grand claims without uh I'm because I'm trying to parse things into like if they if they have testimony I mean one of them that that's just kind of hard to even buy into just because he's he's so matter of fact is Charles Hall yeah but that's also partly because he's it can be difficult to listen to like the droning on sure yeah that stuff for hours uh I'm gosh you weren't there but I know I yeah that's it's not for Beatrice as well as up there okay Beatrice because you know her her's is so scientifically backed and yeah yeah her research is so top four yeah as far as her testimony yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah she's amazing I'm gosh I'm trying to think who else of course I'm also super partial to Randy just because I yeah yeah as a human and I like him very much yep I'm very partial to uh Graham Hancock just because I like his work outside of the space yeah I love Graham um a classic it's not an interview the T Thompson Brown oh yeah it's a classic that's like I'm like I'm as high conviction as anything on that stuff I love that let me see uh Kirk oh yeah okay the because he bullied you Steven Greer I completely that's a great episode it's interesting but the so the weird thing with anybody there are very few people I think you're making this point kind of who are like fully full of shit because even great Greer has all sorts of personality issues yeah you know and like he's so much ego and like what I want to be stuck in an elevator with that guy no I wouldn't but you can't throw the baby out with the bathwater like he's sitting on a lot of interesting information yeah anecdotes like he was cut before you a lot of these guys kind of you know sitting in the black and a lot of these programs didn't have anywhere to go and they went to yeah I look at Greer almost like an Anakin Skywalker type character yeah he he gave himself to the dark side by believing in his own theories instead of analyzing witness testimony to then burns so many people and exposed so many people and hurt so many people the what he started off with what I think was incredibly noble intentions and true yeah I mean that's a that's a good point everyone's testimony I got to kind of look at and be interested and I think a lowest credibility side of firsthand witness encounters right now for me is probably Charles Hall just because I it's it's hard for me to sit through and parse that story yeah yeah that was a tough one I mean I I sat through you know we that was even longer than we then we discussed but I wanted to to make it digestible for the audience and it was I was like this is this is so like he would just go on and then at one point he goes and I hurt my knee and then they the tall whites flew me from area 51 to area 52 and then area 53 and I was like well you got your knee got hurt and it was used to like like like a like a hella vacuate you out of like the range you were at after I thought I'd broken my knee cap and then it healed up there was an ex-mortem when they came down to get me and take me up to their base at area 54 F 53 to see if I needed a knee surgery on my knee and it was in tall whites yeah only and when I get up to the American generals were there and medical medical people were up there too and I didn't I just bruised it maybe it's similar to like a Jason Sandstiep story where there's an initial exposure that's interesting that there's some something there and then they just continue to expand on it toward the story kind of gets out of control I don't think you can ease I mean because there are also people online saying like he faked he was not in the Air Force right BS he wasn't at the Air Force and I have the right you have his DD214 you have certificates and stuff like he was definitely in the Air Force and so and I think he was a weather observer and I think he was based at Area 51 yeah and then and then beyond that yeah it's like hard for me to believe he was like hanging out with these beings for as long but I mean then there's clearly he's very neurodivergent you know clearly so it's tough it's tough you know I my point being I would agree with you on that but it's also pretty hard to definitively write him off also yeah you know and they're people online trying to do that I'm like you can't do that either you have to contend with the you know it's it's just they seem a little beyond belief to me yeah what's frustrating is if he had encounters with beings yeah on Area 51 and that was the extent of it right and maybe something like Corso said in his manuscript we encountered a trapped being who said hey lower the radar so we can get out of here there be more believable but when yeah I know the beings I hung out with them around that's when it starts to do names for all them the teacher yeah that range for here like who knows maybe he was exposed to them and just kind of got carried away well what I use mentioned Sherman is one of the top ones Sherman to me couldn't have been more of a you know kind of opposite vibe of Charles Charles Hall was like too detailed like he had an answer for everything yeah I asked him random stuff about you know from physics to their communication patterns their dialect like everything the books they read they read books apparently read like all these things but they weren't interested in the books on Einstein because they clearly had better you know they had better physics or when I was like crazy stuff like that like he had an answer for everything Sherman she to me pattern matched so much to somebody telling the truth because I would tell him like open source stuff that would support his testimony you know I'd be like you know this guy no erotic actually foehead you know this independent researcher foehead project preserve destiny and the foe was sent to the Air Force and the Air Force forwarded it to the NSA yeah basically which if we can confirm his name wasn't mentioned like that's kind of a smoking gun that this program existed under the purview of the NSA so and he he goes oh yeah cool he goes you did that great like he didn't give a f you didn't care at all and it was to me I'm like oh this guy's so comfortable in his own like he knows what happened right he's not trying to signal anything he's the opposite of a grier who's constant there's so much bluster he doesn't have an answer for everything doesn't have an answer for everything yeah what you and you and I have a mutual friend who has had decades of experience in electronics intelligence you know he sat both of us down separately and we talked both we had both we you know we didn't know we both spoken of until yesterday but and I think we can say his name because he's on Twitter supporting oh okay okay Dan howt yes yes I talked to him at Seoul and you know we were talking about project preserve destiny and he's he sat me down and talked to me for a very long time about how Dan Sherman's discussion of various E-Lint systems and knowledge of E-Lint systems and process of E-Lint electronic intelligence is just beautifully on the money yeah there you go and like just a beyond reasonable casual and would admit would say you know I think the details might be fuzzy here and I might have gotten that a little bit wrong or whatever and it's like you try remembering something you know moment by moment that happened you 30 plus years ago good luck that's like wagant 97 if if he doesn't remember something I say hey do you remember the smell I don't remember he doesn't remember yeah and say Bob Lazar same though my details get a little fuzzy here no sure if they don't then you're lying right yeah yeah if you that's a worse signal it's just like Sherman showed such a straight to even say like I don't really know what these beans I was getting downloads from looked like yes yeah totally and then what's wild is the base he was at he took a photo of it and it's in above black and I you know we we reversed me in my researcher reverse image search didn't we figured out a San Vito denormony and and you know that that's in in southern Italy and we called it out and he goes yeah that was the base and so like you write the book expecting for people not to be able to find it right because you don't really have the internet you know and popular use back that at least and you know now we did so everything keep seeming to check and then the final thing I'll say about that one is I you know and I hate doing this but a guy who is doesn't want to go public also but very high up and like extremely credible position who I wish I could I could say who it is you can take it with as much of a grain of salt as you want yeah you can you can not care that I'm saying this whatever but he corroborated a bunch of details around the Sherman story as well so I really you know hold that in high steam it's interesting that people are have likely been interfacing with these non-human intelligence through telepathic downloads that's really crazy but it's really interesting and it holds a lot of water strange world we live in strange world and and you know you know who who harritches Andre Vardge early architect of mk ultra he had these sort of machines that I think were kind of similar to what Dan Sherman was using where you would hum a tone in your mind match that to the tone you're hearing in these headphones and that would get you into this locked in telepathic state and he everybody had this camp in an upstate New York and all these quote unquote space kids would go up there and channel what he called the nine these alien beings and he was a contractor for the CIA wow and that so in that work definitely became classified and went somewhere yeah and I think it probably wanted to project preserve destiny wow yeah so let me ask you this and kind of a similar vein right right now because Chris Ramsey asked me a similar question I thought it was a great one right now if if you were in charge of assembling five witnesses for the next congressional hearing to make it the best one that's ever happened to deliver their testimony it could be five minutes be three hours so what five people would you choose oh could they be just anybody like like like yeah anybody let's yeah yeah yeah let's go non-hostile witnesses so you could be like a Bobby Rayanman okay yeah right so not separate question yeah yeah what the separate question is top five people you deliver a fat interrogatory tour to to to basically extract their test so they have good intentions yes okay and like could they like say anything in the actual test because like I would you know I'd pick somebody like rush but like you know it's tough because like half the things were like he's like you know let's go to a skip right now and like I'll tell you know by the way when people say grush has no first-hand experience go back to look in what mosquitos asked David grush when mosquitos said do you have any exposure to overhead collection platforms to pick the new FOS grush said kind of dance around the topic then mosquitos said have you ever seen any overhead collection of UFO crashes he said I would have to answer that in the closer there he goes so yeah let's do full open disclosures so they can say whatever okay I mean that's funny because I my mind goes to some of the people who I think don't have the best intentions but no so much clearly due to their background I think people like you know I think grush has like kind of autistic attention to detail you know hundreds of pages that he gave to the ICIG you know Thomas Monheim and like has just like programs names dates like you know where the bodies are buried so I'd say him he could probably go through right now yeah he probably deliver the exact specific sectionals and years from which program names were first dreamt up definitely first created and you'd be able to name everything I think you know I think how put off would be great I think he's got way more knowledge than maybe meets the eye I mean like it's like you know if he's saying definitively the 12 to 15 crafts you know on on jarog and it's like where are you getting that information yeah and white yeah and where as well as just 12 to 15 I reckon the 12 to 15 were just the ones he was exposed to totally and he seems to pop up everywhere you look when it comes to like UFO science and size stuff and size stuff which seems to be weirdly interrelated with all this remember what grush said on JRE you know they start talking about remote viewing stuff and and David grush says well what if the CIA started looking into this as a size stuff as a possible solution to serve as a key to unlock some stuff we have sitting around in a warehouse I think that's one of the most poignant things he's ever said that nobody's ever really kind of paid attention to interesting so wait was so what would this this would be they were talking about stargate remote viewing he and Joe and Grush proposes the question that maybe these these side programs were taken on by the agency and other intelligence communities as a way to get it gain a better understanding over the craft technical vehicles we have stored in our warehouses I mean that makes total sense we'll also look at put offs you know he's the founding architect of stargate all this like expires stuff and then he moves on to like the rest of his career seems really dedicated to the UFO question yeah so there I that has to be connected somehow and you hear a lot of rumors that they're that they're somehow connect and look this is really weird but like okay if the size stuff is real which I think both of us think it is remote viewing is a real modality then What is happening in reality itself like what what what what is like the Archimedes lever of conflict? It's like psychic conflict. Yeah, which is really weird right in the lever that yeah the the the system that allows Remote viewing to work and operate it is it really it kind of breaks my brain because I'm such a like logistic person To to think about side principles and stuff it it's such a huge quandary to me Have you met anybody that Discusses timeline management or the ability to see different timelines obviously Bob was our you know his briefed on project looking glass Yeah, which is like the manipulation of timelines. You have Tim Taylor who you know is written about by day in a pasalca and kind of enters her life He is part of this quote-unquote secret space program and but he kind of thinks of himself as like a You know adjustment bureau timeline management person So there's been a you know, I think I've talked about it before a testimony I'm not really sure what to do with because I don't I really don't know how to act on it And again, this can be taken as conjecture because it's just a claim But it's somebody who claimed whilst they were a naval intelligence They were part of a program that used like a sphere that was similar to Randy Anderson as a basically a remote viewing tool But that this fear was basically used to I guess like a Coagulate time onto the plank scale looking at time as as frames of plank scale and combined with like the many worlds interpretation of quantum physics to like view parallel Timelines I again, I don't know what to do with it. It's really complex. You know to do it It's very interesting. It's very interesting, but again, I don't know the validity to it I've not even begin begun to start to vet that individual because it's just a really interesting Claim that I'm just not sure what to whoa else else on that I'll try and get that guy Dude, I would I would be so fascinated. I mean Matthew Brown also talked about some A AI timeline management system that the White House has or whatever Then that would that would Give some pretty definitive examples about how the universe works right because if you have an AI That can predict future events that we have a pretty deterministic universe, right? Either deterministic or you can kind of move between branches of the multiverse or something and you know who know you know actually He whoever it who created the many worlds theories, you know you know ever it many worlds He went on to work for the Pentagon and nuclear game theory really yeah whoa. Yeah So maybe there's some sort of weird connection there where I mean, oh, this is really trippy weird territory, but like I Think the DOE like so the UFO's in Newspook talks about like all these guys seeing sort of saucers discs, you know Tic-Tac's orbs that seem to like often interfere with nukes The DOE itself often feels like The center of a lot of people who having spiritual experiences And so I wonder if you know if you were to actually like say like the apocalypse isn't some fictional thing like Maybe like multiverse branching is happening all the time and like there's preening occurring and there's certain Apocalypse is that happen like in this rebody problem and then some survive or whatever like the DOE would be like the center of that stuff right and so like Maybe they're like the most entangled with this like spiritual world and explains a lot of the UFO's and new stuff And if you actually talked to Robert Hastings Add this deep conversation with him and I was like how many of these guys Have had close encounters of the third kind where they see beings and they themselves have been abducted not just They're on the base. They've seen stuff or whatever. He goes Like seven or eight out of the 167. Whoa, and I go. How did you pull did you pull them formally on this? They go he goes no those are just the people who've like come out saying that so in my mind I'm like there's probably like half of them yeah or more and he himself has had experiences as has You know Bob Jacobs, you know a lot of these guys have had Mario Woods I found out had childhood experience So it's like The people who end up working in these programs are like closer to this like weird celestial realm Yeah, yeah, like I know guys who have worked in the program who aren't have now like Become far more spiritual because of their time in the programs And it's really weird like guys who are interested in dying up asulka's work and like religious questionings and religious frameworks Because of their time in the program. Yeah, it's like what metaphysical concepts or spiritual concepts are these people Either directly or incidentally exposed to while these programs and then you have tim Taylor telling Diana Pasulka here's the hierarchy of being and I think it's like Alien or non-human intelligence, you know or aliens or whatever You know human hybrids with the beings Then it's like you know Intelliagencies or whatever and it's like on down from there and it like I'm like how do you have Is this do you think he's legit? Do you think Tim Taylor's legit? He's a NASA mission controller that seems to also pop up everywhere in this issue Also seems to like know all the experiencers like he knows blood. So he knew Charles Hall Yeah, you probably have better knowledge on this than I because you've spoken to the man But it's I wish I did I wish I got more out of it He seems to be acting on the behalf of a faction Yeah, yeah hanging out and getting close with various people what his dealers I don't know the thing that's most intriguing to me are the statements that he walks around with credentials from numerous intelligence agencies and organizations like an RO access Various I see agency access. That's very strange to me We can just kind of stroll in wherever he wants yet strange and it's I don't like like talk naming too many too many names But like you know, especially if they're not like public figures Generally, but I think blood so docks Tim and then Chris Ramsey kind of said it best with Tim Taylor where he's like If you want us not to mention you like stop doing spooky shit like he just ends shows Yeah, he enters the lives of all of these experiences really close with them Like yeah, isn't there photos of Tim Taylor at like football games of Chris Blitzos children Something like that like he's really involved in their lives. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, I don't know. So would Tim Taylor be the third one on your Yes, yeah, yeah, I mean if we'll like yeah Is a problem is the intersection between like Have some incentive to like not say everything and like what they know is like extremely high So like if it's like the truth serum test. Yeah, I gotta do Tim Taylor which sure like this platform Full unlimited disclosures of people who have expressed interest in in some disclosure and they get the old I mean, I will another a guy on the good side. I think or at least good side at the end of his life was Harold Moundgren And I think he knew a lot more and it this was so sad to me because I thought we had multiple days of interviews that we could have lined up We get our first interview his health started to go downhill right after that And so we're gonna do like four hours like three days in a row or something like that and And then he said things to me that like I don't think anybody thought that like Whoever the majestic 12 group is like had anything to do with him I mean it would kind of make sense that Bissell would be like a part of that or something But he then says on the phone to me and I didn't even catch this when he said it on the phone to me because he's Voices muffle muffle didn't he's in the hospital on his deathbed, but he goes That was when the CIA started tracking me they put my name in some file and he goes them and the majestic And then we had we dubbed the whole thing because he had throat cancer 10 years before and then I see it in the dub I'm like oh Like after he passed away Your name All the important books uptown Hmm That that that who keeps Wow And not only the same but you know, normally sick only It's like what did he know you know with how quickly his health declined it almost felt like He was willing to kind of let go after he was able to disclose some of that information. You know you hear a lot of Like a family members of of elderly loved ones who are kind of holding on to say goodbye to their loved ones or you know Get a final word and it seemed like him being able to speak about these disclosures with his daughter present with his family present It it seemed like right after that his health declined. I don't maybe he was it that's just been to me He was holding on to for so long. I think so I think he was bottling it up and he really I think he felt a little bad about some maybe like tangential touch points He had had with the program and I think he just wanted To see more of this stuff out and I wish more legacy people had conscience this like that I know I wish that too and then I also I understand if your family's being threatened Yeah, if you're taking some anthrax booster and for all you know, you know, it's like or you're threatened with inappropriate stuff on your Like computer or to get your life ruined too wants to deal with that. Yeah, no Yeah, so but I I do wish more more people can and honestly you're like my biggest hope as far as like more stuff coming out Because I feel like you're in touch You're as close to the metal as it gets you know like if somebody Has come out like often. I'll try to make some like beautifully produced thing with them But I'm not really like you're you're really like On the front lines trying to get people out over Multimont periods. Yeah, and that's an impressive I mean you're really putting yourself in the line of fire and it's amazing man Well, I'd like to provoke more of a reaction from from legacy people take a like take more of a step against me And I'd like to see what happens. I'll put this as like a call to action for for anybody who's had first-hand legacy exposure Please contact me at uap grub at protonmail.com. I my Inish my wish isn't to get people public like to make videos about them If they want to fun and I've vetted them properly sure we'll do a project together But my initial thing is to collect their testimony and get it to the right people of people who can act perform Do actionable things with that testimony and what's the goal at that point if it's not to bring everybody out to the public necessarily But it's to kind of force is it like executive action? Yeah executive administrative action I think there can be an impetus where you know things like the the administration They have a preponderance of evidence and whistleblowers to where they need to take action and bring these programs under congressional oversight and That is when a disclosure will occur and I think that is when a disclosure of a non-human intelligence and active And active programs to reverse engineer and exploit materials But hey, we're doing this but the technologies are still held up in the black budget. That's fine If if the US receives a disclosure that non-human intelligence is here It's been an interaction with humanity for a long time like Carl nils says We actively have crafts and we're actively figuring out how to work various systems with them But we're not going to tell you exactly what we're doing with them because that's a national security concern That is a fine medium for the vast majority of the American public Like there doesn't and I wouldn't even you don't need to it's the same thing with Kind of what most people talk about you don't need to disclose the specifics behind the technology Because you don't need them bad faith actors creating a flux liner and ramming it into New York and creating it Then turn New York into like a wasteland for sure, but I would say I don't know like I think they're trade secrets for example with nuclear weapons But nuclear physics. Yeah, it's like 99% disclose physics about like internal mass reduction and Like space-time bubbles and inertial dampening and stuff like that that absolutely should be given to you man For sure, like say if he figured out that this like you know the quantum gravity stuff is BS and actually gravity is Not what we think it is gravity's been this big question in physics for you know decades Huge for like the world for like our ability to like you know kind of manipulate matter and like make the world a better place And like build you know Engineering and you know medical devices and medicine and and and and crap You know not be stuck on these Boeing 747s 737s with the doors fly off, you know like it's it's crazy. So and oh, so I didn't mean that right no no I was going over ranting. I was just gonna say and if yeah There's zero point energy systems that have been and could be exploited somehow that is a Absolute humanitarian crime to keep from people. It is. I mean do you think we do have that because that seems to be the implication of a lot of these You know Dylan Borland literally said it, you know the most classified thing most sensitive thing is not the craft It's the energy system. Yeah, and didn't Jake Barber say with Ross Colt Hart He knew about like zero point energy systems at the very end of the interview or like just insane energy systems I'm almost almost positive he did wow. I don't know. I maybe we talked about anti-gravity being him So yeah, and maybe anti-gravity systems. It's I mean, I think it's likely again I have very poor understanding of physics or some of this stuff. I just I like the programs see I yeah I think my base cases they have some weird effects that they know how to get yeah kind of in little experimental cases I think the idea that there's a box that could like power the earth in a sustainable way and it's like hidden in some like DOE National lab or you know one of these you know containers that you've mentioned I think that's ridiculous. I don't think that's true If it if it is true it is a travesty and you like you know the lost century by steaming career is like the most important Yeah, I'm gonna never But I just I have trouble believing that I think it's somewhere in the middle where you have these like physics effects that they've proven Like the byfield brown effect. Yeah, for example that I covered where like I'm pretty high confidence That there's a there there and you have Carl Nell who ran a two billion dollar PNL You know CTO of like basically a Northrop subsidiary saying you know watch Jesse's video on Thomas Townsend Brown Jesse's done a number of podcasts looking into towns and brown and some other very interesting Like heretical technologies, so I'd invite people An unsolicited plug to check out some of Jesse's podcasts. You have the lead electrostatic sky at NASA Charles Bueller Leaving NASA and starting his own company exodus space based on propellantless propulsion which he attributes two Thomas Townsend Brown He's had access to a vacuum chamber for 20 years and like Says he's replicated this like you know a ton of time. So you have so much evidence to me that that is real um, and then even that it's like are you hiding You know, I don't I don't even the line between that and then the mark McCannlish like alien reproduction vehicles like we have workable craft that uses You know anti-gravity. I don't know. I don't know um, I think I think that at least Copycat vehicles and like the the subject of alien reproduction vehicles I think that is definitely a thing yeah, people often ask the question of alien reproduction vehicles exist You know why are why you know? Why is the f-16 engaging with enemy assets and not a TR3B? Well, I think a strong argument can be made that with alien reproduction vehicles There's probably a very select number and the technology is probably so sensitive and probably not adapted perfectly Kind of what you're talking about copying certain aspects and getting weird physics effect that these sorts of craft and these sorts of platforms are relegated only to the Blackest of programs for ISR purposes, you know, I mentioned earlier like Oh The founding of the and I just I think the NRO is so important to this whole conversation of UFO legacy programs The NRO was founded to get American intelligence in tonight air spaces because we knew that Nuclear war with the Soviets would lead to mutually assured destruction So there was a huge advantage in defensive reconnaissance to find out where Soviet radar Soviet nuclear sites and perform ISR of Of adversaries since night air spaces grouped like exponentially and important. So I mean if you have a TR3B that can Travel to Russia instantaneously and then render itself invisible on Any sort of of detection system whether it's radar whether it's human eyes and to gather intelligence from a hundred feet away From a Russian ICBM silo that is invaluable. Yeah, it seems like it and I think the B2 stealth bomber was like the last classified vehicle that was then declassified So are you ever on about that 21 radar or was the radar ever even like inherently classified? I don't think it was class. I think we all know about the B21 radar and that's like an official thing So maybe I'm wrong, but I think it might be right because there was the SR 71 U2 a 12-box car. Yep And now of course F1 17 has classified for a little bit all that tone of protest range. Yep. Yep And that that crash in Bakersfield in 1986 or something and then people started But I think the B2 is the last like classified then declassified. So We've got to have stuff after that like come on. It's not just like F-22's F-35's You know, we've got to have like the strongest use case or triangles Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, I know numerous people who have seen triangles on launch pads at groomlake or you know, Roderick Castle 150 feet away from a giant rotating triangle whose characteristics are most exactly similar to TR3B That the triangle story and yeah, that's a great thing you broke with castle like that that story comes up Time and time again. They're even as like ancillary parts of other stories like Randy Anderson who you broke as well Like you with the area 51 he claimed he saw triangles taking off from area 50 Triangles stored at yeah, it dewey owned lands across the Nevada test and training right yeah Dylan Borland triangle The Belgian wave were triangles and I wonder if that you know had something to do with you know Maybe that was actually just terrestrial tech like it you know American technology. I mean Edgar Fusche gets a ton of flak for not producing claims for his Testimony and like I get it. What's he gonna do a wheel of TR3B out? But I still think his testimony has so much incredible Juice to it in aspects and things that I think are inherently true for example back in 1998 Edgar Fusche was talking about TR3B a First actually operational Operational models of TR3B started to kind of fly around in the 90s from the 70s until onward It was prototype models the pilots forum are out of the navy test pilot school out of Pax River And the AFFTC out of the edwards 412 test wing which is something that I would come to believe as inherently correct with the testimony of ad the lieutenant colonel at the 412 So the the Fusche TR3B is is mind-bogglingly interesting Additionally, he says that the propulsion system was reverse engineered out of San Dn Lawrence Livermore national lab In my framework of UFO legacy programs with FFRDCs This would make complete sense that High trust government-owned contractor operated where the technology is still proprietary government property Like a reverse engineering propulsion system for internal mass reduction would be kept within the FFRDC while contractors like north of Grumman Locking Martin Teladine Ryan Would would be used as compartmentalized contractors on like the skin of the craft the construction wow all that stuff Do we know that Edgar Fusche worked at area 51? So we have we have records of that yes, and then anything else that kind of backs up the veracity of his claims I'm particularly fond of his mention of the men in black with treat the tactical reconnaissance engineering assessment team And how that kind of ties into weird things about like the licked and shine crown prince haunts Adams the second talking about Albert Stubblebine and his little treat project and stuff like that wait. What is this? There's a there's an old I got to find it because this was this was like a uh Hans Adams to Stephen career. I think email in the 90s or maybe it was reversed but we're Adams I have it my I think it's my tier 3b video on on triangles, but Hans Adams talking about like a Treat existing under Albert Stubblebine who of course was head of US Army in scum and was obsessed with this is psychic spy stuff and also was tasked with the intelligence sport activity i.s.a. which is now a j-sock unit. What did he mean when he said treat like t.r.e.at Like a like a men in black type thing my my brain is is fuzzy on the exact context around Hans Adams saying Stubblebine and his treat organization So I have to reference my video for the exact specifics, but it's that's an interesting thing um Fusche was at area 51 um i'm trying to think what else I mean the rotating the spinning mercury was also mentioned in de-glocka. Yeah, you know the comelor stub context. Yeah, where you had rotating spinning mercury according to this Polish journalist Igor Bickowski and you had Ernest Grawitz and you know this uh Kind of had a had a assess medical stuff under Joseph Mangala. Uh-uh. And uh or maybe he was actually Mangala report might have reported to him I don't know if you're right and then um uh Who else? Oh Walter Gerlock this guy studying anti-gravity in in the German context at nearby University was also working on de-glocka So and then they had spinning mercury as well and then the vimanas and you know, yeah, they're spinning mercury there So maybe maybe this is the latest instantiation is the t.r. 3b spinning mercury because Fusche was adamant that the t.r. 3b is not anti-gravity It's internal mass reduction is to reduce the weight the mass of the t.r. 3b by I think 89% And then various propulsion systems propellant and it can indefinitely loiter go and lower or throw a bit He said that the program was spearheaded by NRO CIA and NSA which of course to me That fully checks out um, I'm trying to think what else because his um 1998 International UFO conference or congress. I can't remember what the acronym stands for that 1998 presentation is fantastic Because Fusche delivers his disclosures as well as like the amalgamation of his five close friends and sources disclosures on t.r. 3b And he if Fusche himself stated he had seen Uh, the craft twice once in that words air force based and once somewhere else. I can't quite remember But you know if I if I if I had to bet on one derivative system that we have it would be the triangles I like I'm yeah, no, it's so confident in the triangle shows up everywhere really does what do you think of Maybe we can we can wrap up with this crazy story of of Dan Berish Because I find him so fascinating. So this is a story after Bob Lazar, but at S4 area 51 And there's there these crafts and these being who who is he and what did he experience? So he's an alleged what microbiologist out of S4 who interfaced with the J. Rod a recovered living extraterrestrial entity that was housed at uh, 7 six layers under area 51 S4 under all the weird craft storage and project looking glass and all that weird stuff and Well, that there was basically a containment sphere where he would go Interface with this bean and extract its blood for tissue sampling and he gave like a super long Document or interview talking about the exact biological systems of this creature's blood. It's either the greatest larpa volatile Or maybe there's something to it or maybe I don't it's either the greatest larpa volatile or there's there's something to have you seen I think his name is Brian Jackson Yes, yeah, yeah, you have a researcher and he gives a presentation on Dan Berish There's some weird stories around Dan Berish where I think his like godfather was Mike McConnell who was Mike McConnell Yeah, it's director of the NSA And like there's something around Mike McConnell's son dying and like a freak accident and I don't know if Brian Jackson's You know Sure about this or what but he thinks that It's almost like Mike McConnell takes in Dan Berish is like this like you know like godson like really important person to him And puts places him on all these special projects and almost views him like a son Like sees him as having like soul swapped or something with his son or some of this something's very strange That's so bizarre because Admiral Mike McConnell is somebody I would say with almost like his high second hand certainty as you could have was involved in the programs This is where things get really weird because John Lear Is on record saying in an interview like I helped you know Get Bob Lazar a job at S4 area 51 because this was this all part of this limited disclosure plan because we knew that we could you know Bob Lazar was discreditable We could say that he owned a brothel and that he faked his educational credentials and all this stuff um And he said that he he was asked to do this at the behest of a majestic 12 member named Mike McClellan yeah, but I wonder if it's Mike McConnell it could have been Mike because there's the S4 area 51 connection with Dan Berish Yeah Which you know even outside of of Bob Lazar and Dan Berish I am Oh like fully convinced that S4 is a real place and not on Tonapa but S4 right by Pouss Lake. I am too Yeah Dan Berish his story is so interesting. I'm not sure what to to make of it. I Brian Jackson's doing great work on Berish the night shift channel with um with Clint and and zander Jones they're super into Dan Berish and then when I was hanging out with with Chris Ramsey he showed me the most bizarre videos of Dan Berish and his wife Like vlogs of the most weird possibly agency coded like what Things of all time where it were his wife will like show a orange crush show And almost give like what seems like agency keywords or something I don't Impline maybe Dan Berish and his wife are are absolutely bonkers or maybe she says handler I don't know the story is so bizarre and there's a lot to chew through I that's why I'm glad people are doing good work and and looking through his story because there's actually quite a bit to chew through and of course J Rod um the story doesn't just stop there with Dan Berish but also goes back to to Bill Uhouse Who claimed at area 51 auxiliary sites there was a basically a uh ARV or extraterrestrial vehicle simulator built off the Kingman crash and that a recovered Biologic called J. Rod was was stored at one of the auxiliary facilities bill Uhouse said that before Dan Berish I don't know if it was before after because I think bill the primary bill Uhouse interview before he died was was um mid 2000s and Dan Berish's interview was like 2003 2004 right I think that's right yeah, so it you know I without knowing those dates for certain bill Uhouse could have just ripped off Dan Berish But I I'm not a hundred percent sure on whose disclosures came first. Well, that's interesting I mean the fact that they're backing each other up probably I mean who knows if it's uncorrelated but with all this as well stuff. This is why we need project gravatar Yeah, we exactly this is why Luigi yesterday That's just a movie done man, which yeah, you and I both have a lot of um faith in in Luigi We can oh yeah, the the project is is incredible, you know I talked about how uh There are likely like underground sites sap-f stiff subterranean facilities are dums built using disguise like foliage Disguise mountains maybe even projections and Luigi painstakingly goes tries to show how like foliage is rearranged around s4 sites and stuff like that to build a very compelling case of exactly where s4 is and that's another thing where like area 51 was barely Probably not ever really talked about before Bob Lazar then s4 definitely wasn't talked about I think there's some argument that area 51 was mentioned in some magazine or something obscure magazine Yeah, Bob was probably didn't have access to that. I think you know Clear that he was there, but then the fact that you know if we're gonna get any Corroboration on s4 from that movie that's a big deal right and people like some people like to try and say that Bob Lazar ripped off the s4 name off of tona potestrange because Just east of tona potestrange is a is a outdoor site called s4 that Janet airlines or so Janet airlines the famous red striped airline um flies to area 51 Area six, which is by the yuckamountain flat which has a Lockheed Martin owned aerial operations facility That does work for ditcher for DARPA for it's like the nro the NGA Which is really weird not it almost nobody knows about this area six again It's on the yuckaflatan as a Lockheed Martin aerial operations facility. It's super super super kind of like Helped lock and key and then Janet also flies to tona potestrange and Janet also drops employees off Tona potestrange to the area to the s4 site there and apparently according to lazy g rant which is a great blog that actually tracks like ffa flight radar and stuff of jennadair lines and so forth Employees on the s4 area of tona potestrange have to be taken there directly from Janet and cannot drive on site like other employees at tona potestrange That that's a bit strange isn't and another Where'd we first hear about Janet airlines? Bob Lazar? Yeah, because Janet Janet airlines That's not a disputable thing Janet airlines is a you can go on YouTube right now and look up Janet airlines and look at flights Was that publicly known before I don't know I don't know how you would go on the website oldest search.com and quotations do Janet Oh, I love it. That's a cool old to search duck. Yeah, to see yeah to see if there were any early mentions of Janet airlines Yeah, cuz lazy g ranch does a very good kind of breakdown it So all across the Nevada test site whether it's s4 whether it's area six whether it's tona potestrange Whether it's area 51 the infrastructure is there the underground infrastructure is there To to house Alfredo Donnell's craft to house rapid reaction response teams that get in private jets and fly to go take care of retrieval operations To how those bottles are and nine recovered craft it has the infrastructure to do so Where do you think things are headed with UFO disclosure? Do you think Things are bursting at the seams and we get a lot more kind of spontaneous disclosure Do you think we get some slow-rolled managed thing do you think the subject dies out what do you think happened? I'm not gonna die out. I disagree with Carl now quite a bit when he says that his current the the current like carefully managed 2017 originating disclosure campaign is kind of dead Maybe that specific limited disclosure campaign, but I disagree with with sort of To meaning comments like that. I think I think as long as you have somebody like Dave Grush in a driver seat actively pushing and actively engaged in the topic Things are looking good. I think there's a large there's been an impetus in Public opinion on the topic more and more people are getting engaged and you know even though There may be some questionable characters in films like the age of disclosure and maybe some opinions I don't agree with and you know it might be framed a little weird I do think documentaries like that are gonna be great to get the public more intuned because if people are watching like Marco Rubio Who you know UFO heads who are deep in the subject have known he's had an interest in the subject since 2017 and has employed his staff At the SSCI and others to go find more about whistleblowers for him So that guy's a coward for not staking his political career when he's been well known into the subjects since 2017 Maybe a coward is strong word maybe just hasn't had an avenue which to affect things But he Marco Rubio is known about the topic But for the the average Joe who might have seen Jeremy Corbyl's area 51 Bobbler's are in flying saucers who might have seen The phenomenon by James Fox Maybe they saw unacknowledged by Stephen Greer and just have a passing interest in the subject and they watch age of disclosure and they see People like Marco Rubio Talk about UFOs maybe that's gonna spark a lot of new interest in it. Yeah, I mean, I think I think it's gonna move the needle on the topic I think it'll be you know if the 2017 New York Times article was like You know this big jumping off point or whatever. I think this will be a force multiplier I think James Fox's new movie moment of contact to or whatever will be this massive force multiplier I think the phenomenon itself that first movie by James Fox is great. It's just such an amazing survey level overview Gateway for so many people. That's why I tell people who are interested If they're still grappling with the question of like our UFOs real. Yeah, I think the phenomenon is a really good place to start Yes. Yeah. Yeah Fascinating man. And then what do you think like what's your you know Fast forward 10 years from now. What do you hope you're doing? I would I would Love nothing more than to be involved with um of transition of legacy programs into to transition transition of legacy programs into traditional oversight channels I would love to be on teams that goes in inventories warehouses housing craft and biologics and materials and bridging those clandestine programs You know still black budgets still protected by usap but back under United States control I'd like to be involved in helping whistleblowers get Basically reparations for maybe their VA disability that's been canned stuff like that I would like to be in an official capacity helping Prey legacy programs from the cult dead hands of people like Dick Cheney and Admiral Bobby Ray in men And a lot of these old crowns of the old guard who who don't want to who are in these old boys club Who don't want to relinquish control of legacy programs and bringing that to to uh Under control Do you think like you know just going back to like the kind of convoluted org chart or whatever It's feels so I mean sure a lot of people watching this are like how is that kept secret? Do you think maybe it's something like the three-body problem where If the tip of the spear of science itself might be managed by like the beings or something That like the the the org structure is somehow managed by them or necessarily I think it's I think it's very I think it's once you spend enough time looking at it It's very rational how this is kept such secret Uh, how many people in the US do gosh know about like No pretty intimately about the you know intimately a small number I'd say hundreds in the in the low Thousands okay, maybe a thousand okay As far as like defense industrial based contractors who are exposed to methamaterials who don't really know what they are But it's UFO stuff. Yeah, a larger number maybe yeah Five to ten thousand so I'd say maybe 200 I'm gonna lower my initial estimate of like 200 people Okay with a good knowledge of the programs and even less with a historical knowledge. Yep And do you think that those people are our best and brightest minds? Probably not the best and brightest minds are the best and brightest minds Right now or probably at like a actually probably some femur they're probably at mighter But also a lot of them are being poached with competitive salaries by like and a real and stuff like that. Yeah, but I think that uh I think that the reason this is kept so secret is you know It's it's a lot more simple than than people think yeah at every single layer of the programs There are program protection strategies you've already have the US black budget you already have special You already have saps caps and usaps almost impenetrable you have uh, you know No foreign no foreign national stuff to even safeguard them further You have carve out contracts with contractors. You have all sorts of stuff outlined by the 1954 atomic energy agreement Is special nuclear material foreign intelligence information uh and uh Transclassified foreign nuclear information you have personal rotating from their position within od and i to the Miter Corporation or cia ds and t to the n ro to the oust at uh You have a program protection agencies you have the darpasid you have the deweo i c i you have the cia You have the nsa you have directorates under the cia you have the ds and t You can put the kibosh on lockied martin trying to get rid of materials You have this rotating personal agency you have bigot lists of of special access programs dealing with exotic materials Where to keep the the program read on access small you'll have people fulfilling dual roles For example, this is something interesting i have been told you might have a legacy program scientist who has to do a little bit of like Accounting or personnel management stuff so they don't have to read in more people So people might do jobs lower on the ladder rung than them, but you know never never up You're not gonna have an industrial security guy who was also doing like lab technician work Furthermore There was a from what i understand there was an initiative in the early 2010s to cut off historical briefings on new New program and cumbans Uh, this would lead to even folks within ffr dc's like miter who are who are Being told hey you are working on detecting exploiting recovering housing recovered craft of non-human origin Presumably extraterrestrial and hey that bodies are stare stored over there in california that there's still not It briefed into the historical lineage of of the programs and historical members who have worked on them past successes past failures past facilities So the compartmentalization is is obscene and like david grush has it it's all carryover from the Manhattan project not the time that might have been a good idea because you might have had Truman You might have had eyes and how are thinking hey what the What we're just getting into the cold war after world war two what the heck are we supposed to do with these Alien spaceships flying around that have crashed due to high powered radar. We now have their bodies We need to treat this as nuclear secrets because this could shake the very foundations of this nation and that spiraled out of control. So It is it is very and you know that's not to mention other program protection strategies like psychological operations um I You got dodie your dodies of the world who are Paul Benowitz and people and so forth. So I also I think this is gonna sound maybe A little nuts, but I think there's a there there. I think there are people in the like pro UFO community on like Twitter and stuff that Almost play up the dangers like there are danger like I've been fucked with you've probably been fucked with I've had weird shit happen to me but There are people where it's like the all they talk about is how dangerous it is to like look into this stuff And I'm like are you trying to deter like more people coming out that seems like their whole beat They're trying to circulate that as much as possible. It's like they want That to be a meme that's like embedded in your head if you're ever thinking about going public Yeah, because there have been deaths here and deaths there and there you know what there have there have been some spooky shit has happened But I don't know it's like if that's if that's all you're talking about over and over and over again I sometimes question I'm like are you Some sort of operative or something. Yeah, what's your mom brings drive clicks? Yeah, same thing I've had weird stuff and are you trying to deter the next person from coming out because you're you're talking about how spooky this whole Space is like I don't know it drives engagement people saying like oh, you know this horrible thing could happen or this yeah scary thing happens I you know I Personally, I know you don't and I don't I'm not gonna dwell in No, you can't it's it's it's useless. You're not gonna get any work done. No, you're not just talking about the dangers You can't be paranoid or whatever because you know if you got on a podcast or if I got on a podcast and just talked about I'm investigating UFOs and it's so dangerous look like look at me go. I've been threatened. Yeah, what he really wants to hear that That's no it's all of cystic drama cares. No one gives a shit. Yeah, it's like Do you want to get closer to the truth? Yeah Go for it do it, you know or or not like choose another route or something, but no, there's a lot of like You know, it's like all about me, you know, and it's like no, it's not yeah, nothing to be about the content Yeah, this is way bigger than any of us. It's the same thing is like you know I may be trying to put together a framework of how I think legacy programs work But it's still far more complicated than even I could possibly imagine and and I Understand the tip of the iceberg of the subject. I don't understand the physics I don't understand the experience or I don't understand the the biologics It's anybody in this subject to also claims to Understand everything is probably is is non-sensical. I think so I think the best analogy is it's a bunch of blind men touching different parts of an elephant Yeah, and then it makes you think of disclosure in this entirely different context, which is like The government clearly has a bunch of factions who like know a decent amount about the subject or have a lot of data on it And have done some really cool Scientific things on on this topic and often have tried to like weaponize the stuff to be honest But they don't have some like foundational ontological truth that they even have the ability to give you like you know, it's like What if like some rogue vigilante team, you know, that was interested in electronics intelligence outside of the government was like We're gonna create a little beep boop machine You're gonna like match the tones in your head. You're gonna try to connect you know, that'd be cool That's what I'm saying. It's like but that's you know stuff can happen in any context government or not There are things that there you know, we don't have particle accelerators that we can just like build overnight like outside of the government But like a lot of this stuff is way more like you know, you just go out and touch the thing or get it You know more than you think it's not this like cabal who's like controlling yeah everything That's why I Chris Ramsey had a very poignant tweet recently it doesn't apply to me because of course I operate in my own lane of legacy programs. That's just what I like Where he said I would I would rather talk to like a farmer about UFOs than like a you know a former government person and I think that's so valuable we have what we have people like that that are focused more on the the human aspect Yeah, the experience aspect because I'm a I'm a lost puppy when it comes to well Some of the most credible I think witnesses are like you find them There's like they have no like digital footprint, you know, they're living in the middle of nowhere Like I was in Norway and I've you know talking talking to this farmer and he like sees a craft and it's hovering right around his house And he's just like never gone public. He doesn't I barely knows English like the most simple man Yeah, I'm like yeah, I'm like assigning extreme high confidence to that and then you know, I think a lot of On the government side you have a lot of deception and lying and whatever But then simultaneously to that like there are a lot of people who just put a minus sign like you see a J from the Wifiels go on Sean Ryan or you see chase Hughes or whatever and it's like these people aren't whistleblowers They're government propaganda artists and it's like It is just as lazy to wholesale Accept everything these people are saying as it is to put a minus sign on everything That's because they had to go through dots just because they had to go through dobser and because they From like an American like tactical you know geopolitical advantage perspective like don't want to like leak You know like war secrets to like Russia China like go to jail for espionage or go to jail for espionage like Just because they're not Ed Snowden doesn't mean they're not a whistleblower like like you know and then also like What about the meta question so you think they're running a sia off you know chase Hughes or Sean Ryan like Figure out why they're running the site like we'll ask the like figure out what's going on I think the silla in caribdice is like you know you accept ever you go you know Poor Paul Benowitz, but like you accept everything you know yeah or the other side which is you you you you don't take anything Seriously you don't take anything at face value you there has to be some like middle path yeah I think it's it's such a tricky field to navigate because there are self-aggrandires liars A people acting on behalf of sia upset everywhere and then Noble individuals who are just trying to to speak truths like David Grush like Dylan Borland Yeah, for example, who I think is another one. So it's just it's such a complicated topic. I do I do have um I know I know people like Ross Goldhard have been a little pessimistic on the subject of a disclosure progression I do have an optimistic view there That we are heading towards a point of hopefully not like cia sponsored limited disclosure of of No mention of derivative technologies, but like a more complete picture of our reality in what Really interesting rd tn e programs within our own usd. O. D and i c have been doing for 90 years I hope I hope maybe you know that this might seem like a full of stream But I would love one day to be able to write or help write the textbook of the history of the legacy programs That to me would be I could think of no more Interested I would love to become a hermit up in the mountains and spend two decades Just writing out the the history of legacy program. Well, I can't think of anybody more qualified So I think maybe one day maybe one day far from it though. I have just as much of a I just have my own piece of the puzzle. I we you know Just just promise that if they hit you up and say hey you can be our official, you know, historian that That is contingent upon you being able to write stuff that goes public. Oh, yeah I wouldn't want to be like swallowed into the the programs. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Just because that's kind of what I what I stand against Yeah, yeah, yeah Well, I hope I hope that happens and I do think you know even the people trying to Manage the thing or flood the zone or whatever Often their plans end up backfiring because you're just adding interest and eyeballs Like young people are getting more interested and that has its own momentum That's just gonna snowball and like it's the it's honestly like a classic like intelligence failure is like You try to pull off these triple bank shots and you know, they end up kind of backfiring For example, there is a Stephen Green Street trying to Trying to take down David Grusche essentially essentially by saying he struggled with PTSD multiple times after Being in theater and experiencing the horrors of war and trying to say that he's not a credible witness because he has suffered From PTSD and that backfires and and that that's what his stuff is. Yeah, no, it's not working out very well It's so bad in like guys. I think he was like had a contract with the DOE or something at some point Green Street has self-added the DOD I think Department of State where he said himself. He was doing soft propaganda videos for like Foreign nationals trying to get them like trying to get them interested in in basically US patriotism emotionalism So yeah, that's a little weird and he's constantly trying to provoke a reaction I think you know and on that note of people attacking David Grusche You have a guy. I think his name is basic Chris on twitter something like that Forget his actual name because I think he's worthy of a mention here But he went he went off on David Grusche well first I did it interview with the Annie Jones and I talked about PTSD that David Grusche suffered Yeah, and I talked about a friend who was like, you know Mortard while he was You know in Afghanistan deployed this guy was Pounding the pavement on how David Grusche how I you know I was lying or making this up and that David Grusche just had a friend who committed suicide or something later And that was the cause of his PTSD and then Somebody finally interject and never engage with this guy, but somebody interjects and they go um, you know Hey, man actually this did happen he talked about two different friends and he goes oh sorry It's like dude. I mean Like do you know how much pain you're causing to somebody who's like you know served our country? Yeah, you think that's cool like that's this so It's the same people who said Randy Anderson was a liar because he suffered PTSD from a service in Jordan And once he got out of the armed services he you know, he turned to substances to deal with the pain Yeah, and he got clean because he's a he's a strong man and he he got his life back under him But because he struggled with addiction issues because of the horrific things he's faced in life That means his testimony is untrue is the same people who say oh Dylan Borland looks nervous So therefore he must be like neurodivergent and therefore he's being tricked and preyed upon If he's who wouldn't be nervous saying what he's saying it's it's it No, I think it's despicable and I also I want to flip the frame because a lot of people talk about grifters in the opus base There are grifters. I think one we talked about on the show Stephen Greer and and But you know he like will do CE5 cruises and charge all sorts of money for it And it's you know, it's kind of ridiculous I think those tickets were 9k for the CE5 group. It's totally messed up praying on people's credulousness like not cool, right But the grifters at least you understand the free market incentives to grift You're like oh, you're sensationalizing to make money. Yeah, you're just as bad as you know any random used car salesman Or somebody with you know some online course or whatever where they yeah totally skimping you on what they're giving you Values like I get what's going on there what I don't get is people like the two people we mentioned earlier There is no free market incentive for them to hate as much as they do on all the people coming out They're chronically online. It's like they're these weird basement dweller types. Yeah, and there no one pays them So who is you're not making money nobody's even engaging with their content. So like if you're what why are you you feel like it feels like your operationalize Like who is actually paying you where are the incentives you show me the incentive. I'll show you the action either that Yeah, it's that or they get a and probably it could be both for all we know but also like a dopamine rush from Giving a counterpoint to you know crap on American heroes. It's it's it's so weird and like you know If if you're if you're I actually am pro people being skeptical of you know if like a testimony comes out You feel like it's not corroborated great like you know come at it. I actually think you know the D Dean Johnson thing You know if if given that he didn't know have the knowledge of like the fact that you know Mountgren had the CIA background was actually like decently like rigorously like written up Although I think it's like totally wrong on all the details But like their room for skeptics are good like I've had McWest on my show I think you know he's seems like increasingly just like a bad actor with the be it your stuff But like I do want skeptics are good, but like be a good skeptic don't like be don't go after the person's Service when like that's obviously like just real the service is real Yeah, go after the testimony and say like you know We think that's kind of weak or something yeah counter points of their argument in testimony And then yeah, and then let's and then debate those yes But like that yeah, yeah, don't go at home Like if you're if you're going at home and him to that extent that consistently without any clear incentive to like you're not getting paid from a free market perspective And you're spending all day doing this stuff. Yeah, you have to like who who's actually paying you like yeah It's and you know where's case? They're just trolls who like sewing discourse on social media and and infiltrating like a UFO Twitter, which obviously there's a lot of different personalities a lot of people pushing different things and just Going obviously Completely anti against the grain and and and crapping on people that many people are are interested in their testimony and and studying and It's just it's a weird space. It's definitely weird space. Well Yeah, we should focus on the aspirational feature. Yeah, you know, hopefully we both get to take a ride in the UFO at some point Yeah, please the world gets disclosure and you get to write the official UFO legacy program history UAP Gurb this is always such a pleasure. I always learned so much from you and Please everybody go subscribe to the channel UAP Gurb anything else you want to kind of promote here. Oh gosh, I don't know whistleblower is your your email. So anybody wants to get a If if you have first hand exposure to UFO legacy programs, please email my proton mail UAP Gurb at protonmail.com Again, the the goal isn't to get you on on camera or just blindly feature your testimony, but Let us talk let me take your testimony. I mean, I will fly to you in in person if you're if your story is credible enough and undergoes a strict vetting process. I've done before take your testimony record it and try to get it to the proper folks and and if you've been met with reprisals record those as well to try and get those to people who can assess those reprisals and Hopefully get that solved it. It's not a jogging thing. It's not a serious thing. There's a very serious thing if you've had first hand exposure Please, please contact me there. Absolutely. Subscribe to his channel too. It's like the most hardcore best UFO channel online Also is patreon. Oh, yes, please. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't I don't have the time to do like exclusive patreon stuff nor do I want to gatekeep any of my stuff. So the the the patreon I don't gatekeep the any content It's only to support the channel if you think it's it's worth something if you don't support It on patreon please go like and subscribe the project Making three hour deep dives You know just like like the fire hose of information. So just you know that deserves in any other context You'd have to pay for that and you know, you're nice enough to just put it put it out Because this is a topic that I think it's it's probably hard to kind of you know put behind a paywall But yeah, I think you you deserve as much sponsorship as you can get. Well, thank you, man. Yeah, man. All right. Thank you so much, Jesse spin a blast. It's absolutely cheering