249. "We have $2M. Why can’t we enjoy life now?"

If you or your partner has fallen for a scam, I want to help, especially if you've recently fallen for an email or text scam, or you've gotten bad financial advice from someone who did not keep their promises, or maybe you just have not even told your partner because you are embarrassed. If this is you, I want to talk. Apply for free coaching with me by being on my podcast. Apply today at IWT.com slash apply. That's IWT.com slash apply. Holy. We have a couple here who's making $400,000 plus per year. And you're saying it feels like we are living paycheck to paycheck. We're not organized in how we manage it. It feels like, nope, it's here. Might as well send it. $2.18 million net worth. What do you think about those numbers? To me, net worth is just a number. It means nothing to you? Yeah. I'm not sure that it's enough. I don't have confidence. The two of you are really stuck in a cycle. The real cost here is that the two of you just are not having fun with money. Is this like how she really thinks of me? Like I thought 140 was a respectable income. I know it's not anywhere near what she makes. When he said 140, I'm like, the math ain't math. And he flashed his phone in my face and was like, bam, you're wrong. I feel drained. You don't trust the financial advisor you spoke to. You don't trust your husband. You don't trust yourself. What the is going on right now? You know why I occasionally feature couples who make a lot of money and still worry if they'll have enough? Because you'll probably do the exact same thing when you have a lot more money, unless you start to master your money psychology right now. Like, imagine this. What if you made over $450,000 a year and you still felt like it wasn't enough? It sounds ridiculous to even hear that. But if you keep saving and investing, just like you're doing right now, one day you will have more money than you ever thought you would. Here's my question. Will you magically change the way you feel about money? Then today I'm talking with Chris and Heather, 41 years old, 39 years old. They're a Bay Area couple who on paper are doing great, but they don't feel that way. Chris and Heather are haunted by one question. Is it enough? I am bringing them on this podcast as a crystal ball to show you what you might face as you become more financially successful. Think about it. Consider when you were younger, like a little kid, how much you thought a lot of money was. Was it 50 bucks? Was it $50,000 a year? And when you achieved those numbers, did you sit back and smile and say, wow, I finally made it. I don't need anything else. No, almost nobody does. That's why I want to hear from you. Tell me about a goal that you achieved and how you felt about it. Maybe it was saving your first hundred dollars or earning six figures or saving enough to buy a jacket that you had your eye on for months. I would love to hear what it felt like once you achieved that goal. And I read every comment, so just leave yours below. Now, when we talk about our finances, we often over focus on the math and we under focus on the psychology. What makes this conversation even more interesting is that Chris and Heather actually submitted separate applications to be on the show. So throughout this episode, I'm going to be comparing what each of them wrote, and it's quite revealing how they see money differently. Before we get to their interview, let's take a look at their conscious spending plan. This includes all of their key numbers. If you want my help with your own conscious spending plan, you can join my money coaching program at IWT.com slash money coaching. Income, $450,000. Net worth, $2.1 million. Assets, $863,000. Investments, $1.46 million. Savings, $89K. Debt, $221K. Fixed costs are 56%. Investments, 5%. Savings, 1%. And guilt-free spending, 37% or $8,000 a month. On paper, these stats are extremely impressive. But when you have investments and savings like they do, and you are agonizing over whether you can afford to finish painting part of your house, you've probably taken a very wrong turn somewhere back in time. Already, when I'm looking at the numbers and how they feel about money, I can see a major disconnect, most likely driven by fear. Here now is my conversation with Chris and Heather. I was struck by the difference in your applications to me. Chris said, biggest challenge. She wants to spend everything we make. And then she complains about how she feels like she is behind on retirement while also saying she wants to retire early. Heather's application, biggest challenge. We need a framework and to hear some real advice. We've hired financial help when we were younger. They told us you're doing everything you're supposed to, but I don't believe them. My husband pretends to be the money expert, but I don't trust him either. What do you hear in both of those applications? Lots of frustration. Shall I continue? Yeah. Chris writes, I am a saver and she is a spender. I'm an investor that can tolerate fluctuations and risks, but she just wants to invest in bonds and then complain how she is never going to meet her retirement goal. Then she says ridiculous things like how she wants 20% returns with no falls or fluctuations. What do you think? I feel like when he wrote that application, it was like when emotions were high. I was telling him what I talked about in my application, and I suggested that he apply as well. And yeah, there's a lot of emotional charge in there. Chris, what do you hear in the applications? Yeah, I mean, it's pretty sharp. I probably should have toned it down a little bit. Like she said, when I did apply, it was after we had a little bit of a discussion about how much money I make. So I felt a little offended at the end of that. And then I was also trying to get the kids ready for bed. Hold on. I think you're letting me in on a good tip. if I want to get the most raw responses, I should instruct people only fill this application after 9 p.m. at night and after you've spent an hour and a half getting the kids in bed. Is that what you're telling me? Well, I didn't get them in bed yet. I was in the process of doing that. So I kind of felt like a little time constraint working against me. Like I had to fill out this application because that's what she wanted me to do. What was the argument? Take me back. So I was sitting on the couch in my living room. She got to the final question of her application, which was like, what is your household income or whatever? So she asked me how much it was. And I was like, okay, well, if I make 140. And then when I got to that part, she cut me off and she just said, I just need to know how much you make. So I'm like, okay, well, if we're talking about gross, then it's 140. And then she said, well, what's on your W-2? She didn't believe me. She was Googling like, oh, how do you find out how much you made? What's your gross versus your net worth? Is your total gross on your W-2? It became like this Googling contest about what my actual income was. And how did it end? I guess she accepted my answer at some point. And then after that, she just told me that I should fill out the application too. Did it feel good to be right? I think that whatever feeling I had about being right was overshadowed by my feelings of her questioning how much I make. What did that feel like? I felt like, is this like how she really thinks of me? I mean, I thought 140 was a respectable income. um i know it's not anywhere near what she makes but i was pretty proud of where i was at so just to have this like this petty argument about it especially after we just bought our taxes and all our numbers are laid out right there i thought it was a lot of time and effort and stress over just the small simple question that i guess just kind of hurt like i think i would know out of everybody how much I make. It just kind of seems silly to be questioning me about how much I make when I'm the one that's making it and reporting it. Got it. Heather, I'm curious to get your perspective. Do you remember this conversation? I sure do. Okay. Take me back to that moment. You were filling out the application. You asked him for his income and then what happened? He told me a number that sounded higher than what I had remembered his income being. What did you remember it being? I thought it was around 100 based on our last tax return. And we do our taxes together. We work together on it. So the numbers aren't a secret from one another. And in my mind, I thought I made three times as much as he did when he said 140. I'm like, the math ain't math. And are you sure? Then it got into the Google contest. And I'll tell you how that ended is when he flashed his phone in my face of what he had looked up and was like, bam, you're wrong. I was like, okay, I'm just asking, are you sure? Because we're going to put it down on this paper and I just don't want to say something that's incorrect. Why did you ask him, are you sure? Was it, are you sure? Or are you sure? What would you say the tone of that was? I just said, are you sure about that? Okay. Chris, would you agree? I honestly can't remember exactly how she said it. I just remember thinking it's kind of ridiculous to ask me if I'm sure about what I make. Do you mean it's ridiculous because it's your income or because you know more about money than she does? Because it's my income. I don't think that I know more than her. Yeah, you do. You wrote it in your application. Yes. I'll read it. Yeah. We can't go crazy on some vacation because she feels poor, but we aren't poor. I am focused on retirement and her focus is short term. She will say ridiculous things like we lost $5,000 in the stock market today. Should we sell? Even though we haven't lost anything because we haven't sold, she's just looking at the unrealized loss. Sounds like you probably do know more than her. Would that be fair to say? I don't think it'd be fair to say. I think that I probably look and watch it more than she does. but I think that from where she used to be, which she didn't really know a whole lot to now she's made a lot of progress. And I don't think she knows more than me. Who knows more than the other about money? I think it's equal. Come on here. You guys want to ask me who knows more about money with my wife and me? I'll tell you right now. Who knows more about style? I'll tell you that right now too. Right. This is the easiest question you're going to answer today. Let me put it that way. Heather, would you care to answer? Who knows more about money? He knows more about it. I've always kind of deferred to him in that realm. I just want to be sure. I'm just doing a little team checking. I don't want him to have to carry the burden of the financial direction of the family by himself. I want to support where I can. And that means double checking him along the way here or there. Really? I'll do that. Chris, you agree with that? You know more about money, but she wants to help by double checking you. I will say that any financial decision that we make, we make together. When I first met her, she probably didn't know a whole lot about stocks, bonds, mutual funds and investments and things like that. But together, we kind of go over everything and make decisions. If we have an awesome conversation today, what would each of you walk out of here with? I guess just like a more clear picture about the future. I mean, I'm always focused on retirement and there's just a lot of uncertainty to you. Okay. Heather? I think a 10 out of 10 conversation today would feel like we're coming out of it knowing that, hey, this is how we've been spending. And if we continue along this trajectory, this is where we're going to be when it's time for retirement and whatnot. My overall goal is that we can have a balance of having our sort of rich life now and rich life later. We don't want to, you know, be too one way or the other. Sorry. What's going on? I've had some deaths in the family recently where my grandma had dementia. And so my grandma and my uncle both died last year and this year of dementia. And so to me, it's like that is a real possibility for me down the line. And that memory care stuff can be very expensive, too. So I'm just trying to live a rich life now, plan appropriately for later. Yeah. I'm sorry that you lost two of your family members. That's really tough. I feel like we're just overwhelmed with even where to go, where to start. Yeah. I watched your Netflix show a while back and then saw you on Instagram later and just starting to get into some of the podcasts, shared it with my husband, listened to other people's stories, makes us think like, oh, we don't have a CSP. We didn't categorize where our money was going. Sorry. I feel like even in this answer, you're overwhelmed. I want to try to rein you in here. You guys already talked to a financial advisor. They told you you're going to be fine. What does that mean, though? Well, why don't you ask that person? The last time we talked to them, it was not too long after we'd gotten married. Things have changed. We have two kids now. Why not go back to them? They changed their model to be fee-based. They want to take a percentage instead of just a flat fee. And we weren't satisfied with the original answer of you're doing okay. Just keep doing what you're doing. Why? Just doesn't sound like a plan. All right. Heather, you wrote, we have enough money, but still feel like we live paycheck to paycheck because we don't have a budget. Now, the two of you make over $400,000 per year. Yet, that's a big smile on Chris's face. It looks like a bit of an embarrassed smile. Heather is just mouth is completely shut. Well, when you say it like that, it sounds like a big number. The way you describe money is as if it is never enough. Would you say that's a fair way of how you feel? I would say because we're not organized in how we manage it, then it feels like, nope, it's here. Might as well spend it. Okay. Chris? You can only focus on one or two things at a time. You can't focus on retirement and saving while also spending all your money and whooping it up and having a good time. Since we don't really have a coordinated plan, it just kind of feels like we're not making any progress. Do you think that you're missing a plan? Is that the problem? I think a plan would help. Heather? Yeah, I think that would help. Then why don't you guys get a plan? We, in preparation for the show, we started following some things, but I'm not sure that it's right or enough or I don't have confidence. Why not? Not my area of expertise. Is it Chris's? If you ask him, I think he would say yes. And I think he's being modest, too, because he's answering your question. What's going on, Chris? I feel like the way you're describing your knowledge with money is sandbagging. like you talk about fluctuation and risk and you're talking about early retirement like that's not beginner level stuff why don't we just be honest with each other i honestly don't i don't know i mean like i said i've always been focused on retirement i've seen many of my friends retire throughout the years so anytime that they're getting ready to retire they always you know talk about it and i always listen and try to get some information when you say that you're living paycheck to paycheck, Heather. What does that mean to you? That just means that I pay the credit card bill, and so the paycheck comes in, and it is a huge chunk, if not all, that goes to paying off our credit card. No? Holy f***. Dear America, do you see why you should never use this f***ing phrase? I'm sorry. I know I'm here to help you, but I need to help myself right now. Otherwise, I'm going to explode. This goddamn stupid phrase that everybody uses. is, oh, 75% of Americans are living paycheck to paycheck. First of all, what the does it mean? We have a couple here who's making $400,000 plus per year, and they're saying we're living paycheck to pay. I haven't even looked at the amounts, but I guarantee you are saving and investing a lot of money. And you are saying it feels like we are living paycheck to paycheck. You are not. And this is why we should stop using this phrase. Paycheck to paycheck is a made-up term. It doesn't actually need anything. You have a couple making almost half a million dollars. Then you have a couple making $45,000. You think they're in the same universe? No. All right. We need to stop doing that. And we also need to recognize that the way we feel about money is not correlated with the amount in our bank account. Would you agree, Heather, that perhaps the way you feel about money at $400,000 per year might not be accurate? It's possible, but we live in a high cost of living area. Okay. I'm going to just skip right to the numbers. Forget the preamble. Here we go. Looking at the numbers just on a 401k, you both collectively contribute $28,320 per year just to your 401ks. What do you think about that? Sounds good. That sounds pretty good. That doesn't sound like, Oh, we live. It's crazy. We can barely put anything aside. Not to mention there's over a thousand dollars a month going in other investment vehicles per month. Have you guys ever had anyone talk to you like this about money? I doubt it. No, no. What is the financial advisor in his ill-fitting suit say? Oh, wow. Well, from a safe withdrawal rate, it looks like if we use a conservative 3.5%, we'll be in a nominal rate. Yeah. I don't think you need somebody to walk you through cell D46. I think you need someone to give you a little bit of a shake and say, what the is going on right now? Are you guys open to that kind of conversation today? Yes. It's what we're here for. Straight talk. Chris? I'll do my best. Yes. I'm being really tough on them. I'm doing this on purpose because both of them are minimizing. They're almost shrinking back when I ask them direct questions. This is a very common phenomenon when I speak to couples. These couples will write incredibly vivid and evocative applications. They will write painful things about what they're going through. But then the minute we start talking, they minimize. Oh, it's actually not that bad for me. No, you know what? It's actually better than we thought. All right, then why are you here? Chris and Heather's tactic is to keep saying, we just need a plan. Can we get real? I mean, come on. These are two capable adults. If they just needed a plan, they would have done it already. A plan is not hard, especially for two educated adults. We can knock out a plan in 20 minutes. What's going on here is deeper. And I want you to pay attention to this. If you say to yourself, I just need blank. The next question you should ask yourself is, if I just, that's a code word, just need blank, then why haven't I done it? That is where the real conversation begins. People systematically discount the psychological and relational dynamics of money. And that is exactly what we are seeing. That's why I created my money coaching program. So if you're listening to this, you're going, hmm, I keep saying that I need to start investing, but I don't, then I would recommend you join money coaching. You can sign up at IWT.com slash money coaching and focus on changing your own attitudes and behaviors around money. When we come back, we're going to dig in and understand Chris and Heather's relationship with money. This episode of Money for Couples is brought to you by Wild Grain. If you dream of the smell of freshly baked artisanal pastries in your own home, you should check out Wild Grain. 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Right now, Wild Grain is offering our listeners $30 off your first box, plus free croissants for life when you go to wildgrain.com slash Ramit to start your subscription today. That's $30 off your first box and free croissants for life when you visit wildgrain.com slash Ramit or you use promo code Ramit at checkout. I will admit that I am a recovering optimizer. I love a good spreadsheet. I love a good scenario plan. Hey, what happens if this variable changes? And we're talking about the age of 72. Now, the good news is that planning has helped make me successful. The bad news is that I freaking love sitting around and playing with variables. Hey, guys, if I just save an extra 30 cents per month and by the end of the year, I can buy the name brand macaroni and cheese. It's not a good look and it doesn't take me to a good place. That is why I always say a rich life is lived outside the spreadsheet. 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You can head to facet.com slash Ramit to learn more about which membership option is best for you. Facet is an SEC registered investment advisor. I'm not a member of Facet and I have an incentive to endorse Facet as I have an ongoing fee-based contract for cash compensation based on this endorsement. All opinions are my own and not a guarantee of a similar outcome. Chris, you said you are confident that you are on track for retirement. And to that, Heather, you replied, I don't believe that's true. Why don't you believe it? I just think that so many things have gone sideways in the way that people are predicting money. So to use old projections and old frame minds of projecting what retirement and stuff looks like, who knows? Nobody knows. Okay. So what's the alternative? I think we just have to plan and do our best and be confident in what we are going to look like. You told me you're not confident. I know. So what's the plan? I just want to be able to balance now and later. And so when I said paycheck to paycheck, which I will stop saying, I just meant the money that comes in, it goes out and you talked about our 401k or whatever, but that's not money we see that comes out before we even get our paychecks or take home pay. So still real. You don't believe it's real, huh? Well, we've seen retirement accounts cut in half from political and other world events happening and people having to work longer. What are you reading in the news? What sources? Instagram. I don't mind if people are scared of money. I don't mind. It is scary for a lot of people because they don't understand it. So they see these headlines and they don't know what to make of it. And you only see the most hyperbolic headlines because algorithms push that stuff. I don't mind. I understand why it happens. to make life decisions based on a random Instagram account. That I mind. Especially when you're making over $400,000 a year. I really mind and resent that. Like, do you really want to go your whole life just being worried about money? No, that's why we're here. Okay, good. I appreciate that and I'm going to help. Do you both talk about numbers or feelings more when it comes to money? Probably numbers. Maybe I talk about feelings. Okay. So when you're saying the numbers, I'm like, yeah, but I feel differently. You're yelling at me about it. It sounds very familiar to me in my early conversations with my wife. I was like, look at the spreadsheet. I'm using conservative estimates. It did not connect. Money is not just numbers. Money is feelings. Money is a vision. Money is confidence and experience and how we were raised. It's all those things. how long have the two of you been married i've been up on 12 years cool any kids two how old eight and two great okay and when was the first time you disagreed substantively about money wow quite a reaction maybe they're not fights but they're just things that we disagree on like you know i grew up where you if you're gonna buy a car you put a down payment you take a car loan And my husband was like, no, we have to save up the entire car amount before we can even think about buying a car. We can't go into debt over needing to buy a car. How did you resolve that? He used his money to buy the car for me That kind of an interesting example Chris what did you say I just told her that I don like debt and payments and I rather not have that all hanging over my head So if we have the money now to buy it now, then just buy it now. But then we just bought it. How did you both feel about that? It doesn't feel like very satisfactory. I mean, I was like, cool, I don't have to pay 0.99% APR for five years, I guess. Is that really what the number was? It was, yeah. It was from Nathan and it was like a special rate at the time, less than 1%. What do you make of that, Chris? I mean, 0.99% is great. So if we had to make payments, it wouldn't be that big of a deal. Yeah, but that's where he gets into feelings. He doesn't like to feel like a debt's hanging over his head, even though he could have been investing over that five years and making more than 0.99%. What the f***? Where did that come from? Heather pulling out the intermediate knowledge of money. Most people who talk about retirement accounts being cut in half, like very fear-based stuff, they have never really looked into the mechanics of how money works. And your offhand comment just now about, hey, you could take the difference and invest it over the course of five years is quite a bit more advanced than that. What do you make of that? Well, that's how I talked him into financing our bed. It was 0%. Hold on. How much? Over $6,000 all in. Okay. That's fine. You make plenty of money. I just have one question for you. Oh, God. Please. Hold on. I just got a bunch of blood tests and stuff yesterday, so I got my health report. I'm feeling good, but that might change right now. Was this $6,000 mattress a luxury or an investment? It was definitely a luxury, I think. We didn't need a $6,000 mattress. That's what you're saying. Thank you so much. I feel great. Listen up, America. Your mattress is not an investment. I don't care how much better it makes you sleep. It's not an investment. It's a luxury. People are getting so mad right now watching this. I don't give a. The way people talk about their mattress is so insane in America. Calling it an investment is like me calling $500 face cream an investment. Oh, it's going to save me from having to go to the dermatologist. This is obviously absurd. People cannot imagine that it's okay to actually spend money on a luxury as you have done and admitted. Thank you. There's nothing wrong with spending on a luxury. Okay, enough. Thank you. That's great. Who brings up money in your relationship? I think mostly her. What about in the last six months, a time where you were not on the same page? Our most recent car purchase, maybe. What happened? We spent a long time in the market for a reasonable family car. We put in a down payment on a Toyota Grand Highlander hybrid. Then it went into this recall thing for almost a year, and we sat there, no car. Then when it came back, they were still trying to charge a markup for it, which we were like, we're not paying a markup on a Toyota. At that point, I was like, well, let's just get the BMW that I've been wanting. and he was like no let's get something comparable to the Toyota could you afford the BMW yes we could how do you know because we didn't have any car payment at the time and I said okay this much down this much a month we could swing that okay Chris yeah the BMW was a little bit of a luxury and I was more inclined to save everything that we could and pay cash outright because I don't like debt and I would rather not have a payment that I have to make every month in case something happens. Like what? Like I get hit by a car or my car breaks down or I don't know a tree falls on my house. I'm not disagreeing. It's fine. Some people are just like, I don't like debt. Fine. But you seem like you understand investments and opportunity costs and things like that. If you put $20,000 or $50,000 or $80,000 down for a car, that's potentially $80,000 that could have been earning money in the market. What are your thoughts on that? I agree that you could probably take the money and invest it and earn more than the interest on a car payment. But to me, it just seems safer to just pay it and be done versus having this lingering payment over my head every single month until it goes away. Can we take a look at the numbers together? Sure. What was it like doing the conscious spending plan with both of you? It was fine. I mean, we've done budgets before. This one was a little bit more simplistic than other ones that we've done in the past, which I appreciate. I mean, it was a little bit tedious just because budgets in general are tedious, but how dare you. Heather, what was it like for you? It was not as bad as I thought it was going to be. I guess I was afraid of what I didn't know. All right. Let's take a look at the numbers. Here we go. Chris, can you read off the words in bold and then the number in full next to it for this entire box, please? Assets, $863,000. Investments, $1,458,446. Savings, $89,320. Debt, $221,376. Total net worth? $2,189,390. $2.18 million net worth. What do you think about those numbers? Chris? It was kind of surprising to see that. I never really looked at net worth or calculated it. To me, net worth is just a number. Okay. It means nothing to you? Yeah. Okay. Heather? It sounds good, but I also don't feel an emotional connection to it because I don't want to say a fake number, a made-up number, but it's sort of like a snapshot of something. That's what it is. It is indeed a snapshot of where you are today. What does it tell you? We have more on the positive, which is great, but our house is a huge chunk of that. We can't just sell our house and have $800,000 in our hands, so that's also money we can't touch or have access to. Anybody happy about a number that's $2.1 million? No, we're happy. We're happy. Is that enough, though? I don't know. You tell me. You're 39 and 40 years old, correct? And you plan to retire, Chris, at 50? Yeah, I just turned 41, and I plan to retire when I'm 50, yes. All right, so nine more years till you retire. So if we just approximate things, what's going to happen in nine years to your net worth? Hopefully, it goes up. Hopefully, by then, my house will be paid off and the cars will be paid off, so I'll be debt-free. Is this going to be enough or not? You can even guess. I'm not going to, if you get the answer wrong, it's okay. We will make changes. I would say it is probably enough, but we just don't know what's going to happen between now and then and how long I'm going to live after retirement, what my needs are going to be after retirement. Why don't you guys just wait until you're 90 to retire? That way you can be sure. No. No? No, I don't want to work that long. I can help you guys, no doubt. I can. But this idea of this uncertainty, you have an eight year old, correct? Mm hmm. What if your eight year old came to you and said, oh, my gosh, you know, I have a new school after kindergarten and all the people. And I just don't know what's going to happen when I go to eat lunch today. I just don't know. What would you tell them? I would tell them, get in there. Everything's going to be fine. Oh, wow. Both of you so confident. It's going to be fine. get in there, but not with millions and millions of dollars. I want to say that it's not that we're not on the right path. I just don't know. It's unknown. Do you know it's okay not to know every single thing about your money? Okay. That's uncomfortable for me. I can tell. Why? Because I just, I grew up without having it. So it was never a thought or conversation. And then when we do have it, it's like, I don't know what I'm doing. And we have kids and we want to make sure we're doing the right thing. How do you manifest that when you don't feel confident about money? How does it come out? Comes out in us just trying to save or put away. But then I'm like, are we doing the right thing by putting too much maybe in retirement or whatnot, where we're not getting to travel as much now, you know. And what else? The idea that you have a family history where you don't want to wait until you're 75, 85 years old to start using it. So you use some of it now, correct? Yeah. And that seems to cause conflict between the two of you. Chris, would you agree? I don't know if it would cause conflict per se. I don't mind the luxury purchases as long as we can afford it. Let me read from your application. quote, I don't like debt, so I will save until I can buy a car outright, but then I have to hear it from her afterwards because we can't go crazy on some vacation that we are on because she feels poor. How is that not causing conflict, Chris? So yeah, I mean, I guess there's a little bit of conflict. Chris, do you find yourself minimizing the problem on today's call? Because reading your application and the way you're talking today are two completely different people. If you don't feel that way anymore and you don't have a problem, we don't need to do this. You're picking up on a lot of things that I wrote. I guess it's just something that I don't really acknowledge unless I'm writing an application with a bunch of emotions. Why is that? I just feel like we make a lot of money. So if she wants to spend it on a luxury item here or there and we can afford it, then it's not that big of a deal. And why are we here? because it kind of is and we should probably have a more concise plan about what we're going to do and where we want to be. I think maybe it's more about the big purchases that some of this stuff comes up. Like the car. We're not buying cars every day, but we bought two in the last three years. And just some of the bigger fundamental ways that we think about money. We're not stressing over the day-to-day as much as other people might, but we don't have a good way to resolve some of our bigger purchases and bigger picture things about money. Like cars. He doesn't want to go put a loan on it. You do. Okay, so that's one. What else? Stuff I want to do with the house, like renovations. How do you know if you can afford it? I look at our bank account and our savings and I say, if we take out this amount, this is what we'll be left with. Are we comfortable with that? Yeah. We haven't done anything big, big because of that. Let's take a look at the rest of the CSP. Heather, can you read off the combined gross monthly income, please? Combined gross monthly income is $37,693. So your household income is $452,000 per year. What do you think about that household income? Sounds good. It's a lot. It's a lot. All right, I agree. Who makes $25,000 a month? Is that me? The bigger one? The bigger one, yeah. That's you. What do you do for a living? I'm in health care. You're in health care. Okay, cool. And Chris, you make $12,000 a month. What do you do? I work for the state of California. State of California. Nice. You got a pension? Yes. That's cool. My dad worked for the state of California for a long time. I noticed you used the word Hela in your application. Are you from Northern California? I am. Where? The Bay Area. Very nice. All right. Yeah, it's a big tell. Okay. So continuing along on the CSP, I'd like to point out a few things. Again, notably the high income, $452,000. You're contributing $28,000 a year to 401ks. Your fixed costs are 56%, which is interesting to me. It's a little higher than I would have thought with that kind of income, but it's still within parameters, so whatever. We can dig into it later. Whoa, what the f***? Clothes are $2,200 a month? I knew that was going to come up. It's not really close only. What is it? It's a combination of purchases from Nordstrom, which include luxury handbags as well. All right. That's fine with me. I mean, whatever. It's within 60%. God bless. All right. Moving along. Investments are at 5%, but let's keep in mind you're already investing a lot more than that from your 401k. Savings are at 1%, and actually that's all going to your kids. That's 529. And that is because your savings are at $89,000 or seven months. Okay, fine. I can understand that. And finally, guilt-free spending is 37% or $8,000 per month. Is that accurate? I feel like that includes like travel and everything else. Okay. How do you all feel about these numbers? It sounds good in the short term, but is that if we continue on this path, is that going to get us where we want to be? Okay. And Chris, what do you think? I'm happy with it. It would be nice if we had like steady investments into something other than just our 401 and things like that. I've heard on some of the other podcasts that you would talk about having an account specifically labeled for vacation or trips or fun things like that. It kind of sounded like an interesting plan that I was thinking about maybe implementing. But as far as the numbers go, yeah, I'm fine with it. What do you think my reaction is to the CSP? There's too much in guilt-free spending. You think my answer is too much guilt-free spending. Okay. And Heather? You said the fixed costs were a little too high. No, that's not what I said. Oh. What did I say? What the hell? My clothes? Oh, yeah. I was surprised by that, and then you explained it, and then what did I say? I said, okay. No, I said, fine with me. Which of you grew up religious? Neither? Neither of us. I went to a private school, but we weren't like super religious or anything. We didn't go to church every week or anything like that. Why are you guys wanting, deep down, why do you want me to discipline you right now? Because that's the attitude I'm getting. Like, tell us we're bad. I know we've been bad. Here's my hand. Slap it with it. What's going on right now? No, it's just the first time we're kind of shining a light on our own spending and stuff, too. Putting the CSP together was like going through the last year's worth of credit card transactions and tallying it up. And I was like, damn, $2,200 on clothes and luxury handbags. Maybe I was YOLOing a little too hard. Maybe. But can I ask this, Heather? Do you know any women who spend a lot of money on things that they value and they are proud and unapologetic of it? No, I do not. Exactly. Most women do not in my experience. And I'm on a mission to change this. Like my wife, she spends a lot of money on certain things, her money dials. She talks about it unapologetically. And she tells me a lot about how her female friends do not talk about it. And she's like very open. And it's quite inspiring when she meets somebody else. Heather, why do you think you don't know anybody like that? That's just not how I was raised. That's not how my friends are. That's not how, you know, we're just brought up in a like a humble upbringing and household. So to spend thousands on a handbag is stupid. Do you think it's stupid for your handbags? See, if you look at the trajectory of appreciation on certain brands. No, we're not going to do that. We don't buy handbags because they happen to be worth more. That's not why we buy them. Sometimes they are, but that's not why we buy them. We buy them because? They make me happy. yeah and can you afford it i think so well your fixed costs are below 60 so in general without looking into the projections and stuff seems very clear you can afford it can i give you some of the energy that i have around buying expensive stuff like this sweater it's pretty expensive if you were like damn like that's a nice sweater where'd you get it from i might mention it how much did that cost i might tell you and then you first reaction whoa i go yeah i really love it it feels good on me. It fits me really well, depending on different sizes I'm at. It scales with me. I just love it. And clothes is one of the things I really love spending money on. What do you notice about my answer? You had confidence in it. You owned it. Yeah. I know my numbers. I know what's important to me. When I buy something, I'll never apologize for it. I didn't trip and fall into this sweater. Never. I did it because I decided eyes wide open. Can you give me an example of that? Tell me about your favorite bag. My favorite bag, I got it on a luxury resale site, and I was getting a good deal on it. Oh, we're not going to do that. No. Just for fun, how much did the bag cost? $8,000. It's worth $10,000 or $12,000. Nobody buys luxuries because they're getting a good deal on it. That's not luxury. Luxury is always irrationally expensive. One thing I notice about Heather is that she's quite contradictory. Have you caught it? On one hand, I'm humble. I'm frugal. On the other, I insisted on a BMW and dropped $8,000 on a handbag. Now, I'm the last guy to shame anybody for buying a beautiful handbag or a nice car. Although I do wonder, why did you choose a BMW? Is it that you wanted to park diagonally across four parking spots to take up everybody else's parking? No, just the 10,000 BMW owners I've seen in my life. Okay, whatever. The point is you have to be honest with yourself and the people around you if you want to live a rich life. And that means being honest about what you actually spend money on. You think I go around saying, hey, everybody, I'm frugal. I actually got a great deal on this sweater. No, I paid a lot of money for this sweater because I love beautiful clothes and I can afford it. It's okay to admit what you love. You don't have to apologize for spending money that you can afford on the things you love. And in fact, it goes deeper because when you are not honest with the people around you and yourself, you are sending mixed messages to everybody. Here's what's really interesting. He called out these mixed messages in his application. It was one of his central complaints. But in this entire conversation, he didn't bring that up once. Not once. She says she wants to retire early, but she also wants luxury spending. Well, guess what? The truth is they could actually do both pretty easily, but you can't accomplish those great things if you don't admit what you want. Deep down, many people believe that becoming wealthy and living a rich life should be hard. The idea that if I actually admit that I love beautiful clothes or if I admit that I love a beautiful handbag, that that makes me a bad person. And actually, I should be tormented by spending on these things that I love. But also, I know I'm bad. I'm so bad. And we create this torment for ourselves. But it doesn't have to be that way. In fact, when you understand money and you master your own money psychology, you actually get the beautiful privilege of saying, oh, this actually doesn't have to be hard in order for it to be fulfilling. That's why I always say nobody trips and falls into a rich life. If you want it, amazing. But you've got to be honest. Listening to this, I can also empathize with Chris. If you're him, you're sitting there saying, do you want this or do you want that? I don't understand. So up next, we're going to explore how they actually talk about money as a couple. 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I mean, I think I don't really know what my medical needs are going to be in the future or if we're going to move or like how much is my bank account supposed to be by the time I retire? This is an extremely elementary question for somebody who plans to retire early. And I actually don't believe that you don't know this number because this is the primary thing that people who are in the early retirement community obsess over. They wake up, they plug it into a Monte Carlo simulation, they plug it into 20 different fire calculators. Please don't tell me you don't know the number that you've been orienting your entire professional life towards. How much do you need? I don't have a number and I don't know because I just don't know what I need. I'm actually like shocked. You told me your goal is early retirement. It's happening in nine years, but you've never calculated how much money you need. Well, they always have like that benchmark rule or whatever where you withdraw whatever it was, 4% every month. But there's just too many unknowns. So I don't know. I'm just kind of going off of get as much as you can and hoard it and hope that it's enough in the end. Why don't you just say we're going to travel the exact same as we do now. We are going to probably not have a mortgage or a car payment or whatever. You can make three or four assumptions. They're very straightforward. If you didn't even care to make the assumptions, you could literally say we're going to spend exactly the same amount as we are today. But you didn't do that. Why? I think we didn't do it just because we don't know. So what's the point of plugging in stuff that could be totally wrong? We'd rather not do it at all and wait for somebody to give us the perfect answer. Is that it? I mean, that is kind of convenient now that you mentioned it. Why? I don't know that we trust ourselves to do it. We want somebody who is an expert. You don't trust the financial advisor you spoke to. You don't trust your husband. You don't trust yourself. Who's the common denominator? We are. Yes, me. It's not just you either. It's the two of you. Because Chris himself, even though being steeped in this community retirement, watching, reading all these books and stuff, still will not make a basic assumption. The idea that it is so uncomfortable to potentially be wrong that I would rather not even play at all. Chris is sweating. He's wiping his brow literally with that sweatshirt. Chris, is this hitting too close to home? There's just too many unknowns. Yes, he's uncomfortable. I've tried to come up with a number before, but I mean, you even said yourself, oh, if you take your retirement account, whatever, run it through my little Rameet calculator, it accounts for inflation, 3% inflation. And that's like a general rule that's kind of common, but it doesn't account for everything. Like we living through all these unknown things like the 08 crash and COVID and we don know what going to happen What is the solution if you cannot perfectly project all of these complex variables Then you save more than you need, but we don't really know what we need. So you just have to save a lot. Okay, so keep saving. Do that for your whole life. That's where our conflict comes from. I don't want to just save for later. I want to live now. Then how much is enough, Heather? I don't know. I don't know either. That's the problem. Neither one of us has the answer. We're like the blind leading the blind here sometimes. Let's take your eight-year-old. Boy or girl? Boy. You're teaching your eight-year-old how to read, how to go to restaurants, how to play with other kids, how to explore the science museum, all these different things, right? Okay, great. There's going to be something you can't teach your eight-year-old. how to tie a bow tie, how to behave the first time he goes to play tennis, how to handle a tadpole. Who knows? There's a million things you cannot perfectly predict for your eight-year-old. How do you deal with that uncertainty? You try to build the characteristics and things that he can use as a basis to handle those unexpected scenarios. Yeah. So give me an example, because let's say your eight-year-old, let's fast forward like 20 years in the future eight year old is in a relationship and their partner is quite demanding financially their partner says I want you to pay for this and this and this and this now you never talk to your eight year old about how to the unlikely event that you're going to one day be in a relationship with somebody who's financially demanding etc what would you teach your eight year old today that would allow him to make good decisions 20 years from now good communication great hey this isn't When you say that, it makes me feel this way. I would love it if we could talk about blah, blah, blah. Perfect. Can you apply the same lessons to the two of you? Yes, we could. Have we? Probably not. Agreed. But give me an example of how you could. We have to just sit down and carve out time for these sorts of conversations. And I just think. Why? Why do we have to sit down? I hate this phrase. Do you know why we say it? We say sit down as if to other ourselves from money. Like this is a formal conversation. Everybody bring your finest garb and we're going to have a formal discussion. Money's not like that. Money is in the trip to the store. Money is in should we buy this premium lemonade or not? And I want us to be able to be conversant with money. It's in spreadsheets. It's in talking to our kids. It's in where are we going to go for coffee? We don't need to sit down. We don't need to other money and formalize it. I actually want you to become so comfortable you're conversant with it like anything else. Let's keep going now. How could the two of you apply that lesson that you did with your son to your financial situation? Learn some good practices. Setting up or automating things to prepare us for the unknown. Great. Chris? do some research and talk to each other about exactly what we want and need in the end and how we could get there i guess y'all read my book either own we bought it twice and we gave it to friends oh that's good well y'all have a lot of money so why don't you buy 20 more copies of each of them okay and then maybe you can read one of them what do you think um yes we can do that married many years, lots of money, kids, putting aside money for a 529, but haven't read a book together about money. Why? I guess we haven't felt the pressure or the need to really have to do something. Yes. But we don't want it to be too late where we're like, oh shoot, we didn't give this the attention we should have 10 years ago, 20 years ago. Well, I think there's an element of that for sure. I think that by not actually being educated about money and being aligned, you are probably leaving, you know, like $500,000 on the table. Yes. But that's actually inconsequential in the grand scheme, in my opinion, because what is the real cost here is that the two of you just are not having fun with money. It just kind of feels kind of dreary. You got the bags. Okay, that's nice. You got the car. Okay, maybe one of you disagrees about how to buy it. You get the car. Fine. But if I'm making $450,000 a year, I am excited every morning I wake up because I understand money deeply. It is a core part of what I do. Not me. I'm talking about everybody. I use the money for things in my life that give us massive improvement, whether it be the trip, babysitter so that we can spend some time together, beautiful clothes, whatever. And I feel rock solid confidence because I've put, we have put a plan into place to know that we are going to have more than enough, no matter what may come. How's that sound? Sounds good. Whoa, finally moved by the vision. Okay, damn. Did you guys ever think that's possible? Not really. I have couples that come on here making $75,000 a year and they feel more confident about money than you two. Why? I think we're just overwhelmed with possibilities, I guess. Yes, keep going. Then it comes to be like an analysis paralysis and we just can't make a decision on how we're going to proceed or whether even if we do proceed, then it's like constantly saying, is this enough? Is this right? What if we do this instead? What if we do that instead? Sucks the joy out of it. Yeah. One of the things that I love about what I do is I get to show people what feeling joy and appreciation for large sums of money feels like. And that sounds kind of counterintuitive. People are like, what the are you talking about? If I made 150K or 250K or 450K, I would be overjoyed every day. No, you wouldn't, as we can see right here. A lot of times, what do they say? More money, more problems. Actually, it's the same problems, just scaled up. And people don't, they just never deal with them. And then they just have more zeros. And here they are today. But can we make a decision together and feel good about it? You both met with financial advisors who told you that you're going to be okay. But it didn't feel true to you. Why was that, Heather? I mean, that was a long time ago before we had kids. And kids cost a lot of money. and we haven't re-seen another one yet because they wanted us to pay thousands of dollars. For what advice? I don't know. You had a lot of money back then, right? Before kids? Less. Okay, this is great. Thank you for the rage bait. Just tell us how much you had before kids. Right now you have like 2.1 million net worth. What was it back then? It's not that long ago, eight years. I don't even know. A million? 1.5? What? Probably a million as a net worth number on a page. Thank you. Thank you, God. You had $1 million in your early 30s, and you said, not enough. Not even close. I don't believe you. Is that what you're telling me? Tell the world. Half of it was a house. It's not money. I'm still being tough on Chris and Heather, and there's a reason. I actually don't mind being lied to. That happens all the time. I don't mind when people have the wrong information. Most people don't even know their own numbers. Fine. But what I do resent is when someone asks for help and then they resist that very help at every turn. It actually takes me back to when I started. I will teach you to be rich. This is even before the blog. I was in college helping people one on one with their money. I would be sitting in the dining hall. I would overhear some of my friends complaining about their fourth overdraft fee. And I would say, Hey, I actually teach this one hour class on money free. Come on by. I'll help you do it. And they would go, yeah, that sounds great. And then they would never show up. I had printed materials. I'd gotten space in the lounge. I sent reminders on AOL instant messenger. I was going out of my way to help them for free. And I remember thinking, why am I chasing people down to help them for free? And they are not even coming. This makes no sense. That was actually one of the main reasons that I started my blog in 2004. I was sick and tired of chasing people who claimed they wanted help. And I decided instead of chasing them, I'm going to create a blog and let the right people come to me. Chris and Heather claim they need help, but they're pushing back at every turn. It's like a lot of people, you know, who complain about something, but the minute you try to help, they've got a list of reasons. It's not that bad. It won't actually work. It's not possible. Personally, I can't take it. That's why I built my business the way I did. So I can lavish help on the people who truly want it. But for everybody else, it's up to you. So I still want to help them. They're my guests. They're here today. But to do that, we've got to look backwards. I've got to understand why they are bringing this peculiar attitude to this conversation. Let's find out why they feel this way about money. It starts a long time ago. Let me understand how you grew up. I think there's a slight difference here. Heather, can you take me back to your childhood? What do you remember your family saying about money when you were a kid? That there's not enough of it. My parents got divorced when I was in elementary. I spent one week at my mom's house, one week at my dad's house. What part of the country did you grow up in? I grew up in Hawaii, which everyone's like, oh, that sounds fancy or whatever. But it's actually very expensive. and the people who live there work very hard. Okay. And what did your mom and dad say about money specifically? Nothing. No conversations. But I do remember being in high school and going to, driving myself to the dentist appointment, and then they were asking me to pay for it afterwards. And I was like, oh, I'm just a kid. Did you pay for it? I paid whatever I had at the time, which I just had a minimum wage job and I paid for my visit that day. Wow. Speaking of minimum wage, what do you remember making at that job? $8.25, something like that. What did it feel like to earn money? It felt like freedom, like I could do what I wanted to do, pay for gas, pay for fun, stuff with my friends. Did you go to college? I did. In Hawaii or elsewhere? No, I went to college in California. That's where I met Chris. Okay, cool. How did you pay for college? Loans. Loans. And were you able to pay those off? Yes. How'd you do that? By aggressively throwing every extra dollar that we had toward it. Yeah, I went to college, undergrad, and graduate school. Over $200,000 in student loans at the end of it. You paid $200,000 off already? Yes, I graduated in 2010. That's actually very impressive. I want to take a second to appreciate that because that's not normal. It's really impressive. So great work. Thank you. We live very cheaply from that, through that whole time. Yeah. That's when we were back on our budget of every single dollar we put in an Excel spreadsheet to add up. And what did it feel like when you were doing that? I hated it. You hated it? Yes. How do you feel about the way you handle money now? Well, we've been a little loose with it, just not tracking everything. People naturally stop tracking with the same level of specificity after 150K. You make 450K. It's not surprising to me that you're not tracking the price of apples. I try to be reasonable. But yeah, I'm not sweating. We don't shop at Whole Foods or wherever. We shop at Costco. I just like to take a moment for everyone in America to recognize that somebody who has an $8,000 handbag is saying, I like to be reasonable. I like to be reasonable. You know, maybe it's actually okay not to be reasonable when you make $25,000 a month. How does that strike you? On the day-to-day, I try to be reasonable so that when I want to do something cool or crazy, it's okay. Okay, cool. Chris, what do you remember your family saying about money when you were a kid? Just that we didn't have any money. We're always poor. were always broke. Were you? When I was younger, we were poor and we were broke. But at some point, they had money. I just don't really know when that happened because they always maintained that I'm poor, I'm broke lifestyle. What's your ethnic background? I'm half Chinese and half white or Caucasian or whatever the PC term is. Which one of your parents is the Chinese one? My mom. Was she the one who kept telling you you're poor or both? Both of them, but I think it kind of was more on her side. Yeah. Was there a point where it became increasingly absurd? Like, you know, we drive a fancy car, but we can't afford oranges at the grocery store or something? No, it was never like that. Like, they would never buy a fancy car. They would never buy any luxury items. It was always, just squirrel it away. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. Anyone? Yeah. So they would squirrel it away. And what would they say about saving? They always said to save everything you got. It was always never pay full price because you can save as much as you possibly can. When you bought stuff, the first question they said was how much did it cost, right? Yep. Yep. You ever talk to them about money now? I do a little bit. I remember when my mom was getting ready to retire, she was really worried about it because her company got bought out. So they gave her a golden handshake and she couldn't tap into that until she was, I think, 55 and a half or something to that nature. and she was younger than that. So she was kind of worried about what she would do for income between the time she retires and the time she could draw. So I remember having conversations like that. And even now she hit the RMD age. So she's been kind of talking about that and just discussing her navigation through that. But what does she say? Like, is she excited? Is she nervous? Does she not want to take it? What? She just complains about the taxes that she has to pay and how it's so much. Let me translate for everybody. Hold on. Hold on. I need to get in. I need to get in to see. Oh, my God. I made so much money, including a fat pension that young people don't have. And now I have to pay taxes on my gargantuan earnings. I hate this. how did i do chris yeah that's about right about right i love hearing rich people complain about taxes on the enormous amount of money they have what the chris you hate taxes also i do wow shocking you know chris i love taxes did you know that i love paying a gigantic tax bill because it means that i made a huge amount of money how does that strike you that's a unique perspective and I respect that. Wow. Very charitable. Okay. All right. So your parents said save. You believe in fervent saving. Your mom, at least, maybe dad too, hates taxes. You hate taxes. Believe on cutting back and being frugal and saving a lot of money. One last question on this one, Chris. Is your mom happy with money? She's never said one way or the other, But it doesn't seem like she's happy having it and it doesn't seem like she's happy spending it. And do you see any element of that in yourself? I would say yes and no. I mean, I'm happy having it and I'm happy spending it. You are? I just don't spend it often. But when I do spend it, I spend it. What's an example where you spent it happily? I don't know. any vacation that we go on i just buy whatever i want it's just like oh when am i ever gonna be here ever again might as well just buy it now what would be an example of something you buy on a vacation rome when we went to that starbucks reserve before we even knew about starbucks reserves and they had a a shirt there that was something crazy like it's like a 60 or 80 t-shirt and i was like wow this is a really nice looking shirt and then she was like oh are you going to get it? And I was like, yeah, we should both get one. Like super cute, matchy, matching shirts, me and you. And she's like, I don't know. It says $80. I'm like, let's just do it. Wow. It's kind of unusual. I wouldn't have expected that. Where did that Chris come from? I don't know. I mean, I feel like we work hard for our money and time isn't guaranteed. So when we are out having a good time with the kids or the family or whatever, just to make the most out of it. And yeah, I enjoy it. Heather, you said to one of my producers that you, quote, love Vacation Chris. Can you talk about that? Vacation Chris is like he described. He's not stressing and sweating over ordering a drink other than water at dinner or throwing on an appetite, having an alcoholic drink at dinner. Ooh. What does it mean to you when you see Vacation Chris? it's like yeah we're on the same level now let's get crazy let's enjoy what we've worked so hard for so let's say that Chris said you know what I hear you loud and clear I'm going to be vacation Chris all the time I'm going to be happy to splurge on an appetizer or on a t-shirt etc okay would you be interested in that I don't know that we can afford vacation Chris 24-7 right those t-shirts might become too expensive on your $452,000 salary It's not that. It's just like, that's a lot of money for a t-shirt. You know, what's interesting is you told my producer, you quote, love Vacation Chris. I do. And you're saying it now, I do. But yet when I just asked you, would you like to have Vacation Chris around? You just talked yourself out of it. I mean, I feel like we're both of the same similar mindset that we have to be reasonable in our day to day. But when it's time to have fun, we should allow ourselves to do that. Okay. You guys are on the same page. So what are we doing here? This is called Money for Couples. I know. There's stuff we're not on the same page about. What lessons from your childhood do you bring to your relationship with money today? Being humble, being, you know, not proud of wasting money on silly things. Your guilt-free spending per month is $8,163. I don't advertise that per se. Heather, can we drop the act? Okay. It's not working for me. Like you're here and we're spending a lot of time together. And I actually think it's disrespectful of my time to keep this act up. Either you own the spending you're making or you don't. No, I feel conflicted. Then let's talk about it. But I can't have you avoiding it. You make $25,000 a month just alone. You're a very accomplished woman. You paid off $200,000 of debt in a matter of mere years. You're a very extremely impressive professional. I need you to act like it. You spend $8,163 per month on guilt-free spending. And I actually believe that number. What do you make of that? It sounds like a lot of money. It is a lot of money. And I just, it feels good in the moment, but is that the right decision long term? I guess that's where my conflict comes from. It feels great now, but later on, am I going to be looking back on this time and thinking, oof, I wish we only spent $6,000, $4,000, $3,000, whatever it is. Those are easily calculated. You can calculate if you invested an extra $2,000 a month, what would the return be in X, Y, and Z years? Those are very easy math calculations. The two of you could do that in 10 minutes. The fact that you haven't done it, there's something deeper going on here. I suspect the way that you talk about this money, that you use these camouflage tactics is part of it. Chris, I suspect part of it is from your parental upbringing as well. But do you all see that it's not just about this $8,000 a month? I'm feeling unresolved about it or uneasy about it. And we haven't even put that number down until we were getting the CSP together. because we were doing okay, I thought, and didn't look too far in the future. But we're trying to be better for ourselves and our family and our kids in the future, and part of that is maybe taking stock of where we are now. And if we have to make adjustments now, then let us know now. We don't want to look back and think, oh, we should have invested that $2,000 at whatever percent rate. Chris, what lessons do you bring from childhood into this relationship with money? I'm always a saver. I just save. I don't really spend it or enjoy it until it comes to vacation time. What is it about vacations that allows you to suddenly for once enjoy it? I don't know. I just feel like the whole family is together and we're out trying to experience new things and go explore. and I want it to just be a nice memorable moment, not a stressful period where we're saying, oh, well, maybe next time we can do this because we just don't have the money or, oh, that's a little bit too expensive. Do you worry when you're on vacation and you splurge for the $80 for times two? I do not, no. Do you not? What does that tell you? I have the capability. Yeah, yes. Yet somehow when you are at home, it shifts. Would you agree? I would agree, yes. When you went on vacation as a kid with your parents, were they similarly open-minded about spending money? We never really went on very many extravagant vacations. Usually it was just camping or trips to the beach. We did go to Disneyland. Did they let you buy lunch at Disneyland? If it did, it was just kind of like something small to hold you over until you could get something cheaper outside of the park. And we never got souvenirs or things like that. Yeah. Or if we did, it was like something small. Yeah. I mean, there was always kind of restrictions and things. Heather, you want to weigh in? Sometimes the partner knows best. What do you think makes vacation Chris vacation Chris? I do think that he realizes that he wants different for our family and for our kids. And so when we get those times, he knows like we're not living like this every single day. And to make it special, you know, for that particular chunk of time yeah is meaningful you know i once went to meet one of my friends in new york for coffee on a sunday morning sunday morning is kind of like nobody's dressing up people are wearing sweats out you know it's early and he gets to the coffee shop and he was dressed extremely well i was thinking like this guy just go to church or something and i asked him and he goes no i just like to dress well And it really opened my mind that I don't have to have clothes that are just for nice occasions, but I can actually dress well all the time. He actually showed me what's possible. Chris, or shall I say vacation Chris, what do you think about that? I see it's a possibility. Is it a possibility for you? Probably not. I mean, I'm not one to spend a lot of money on clothes and go out and dress all fancy and stuff. What if that story was not about clothes, but rather about being able to spend a little bit more when you're not on vacation? Maybe. Why? It would take a lot of, I guess, reprogramming in my head. Isn't that what we're here for? Yes. When the two of you got together early on and you had your early jobs, how much money were you making together? Do you remember? Yeah, you worked a minimum wage at the pizza place and I was in school making zero dollars. So you're making like 30K a year, maybe less than that. Yeah. It's a part time job. Yeah. Less than that. All right. And and now you are making 15 times that. Have you adjusted the way that you treat money the way that you feel about money since then? I think we are spending more and adjusting to having kids and kind of showing them what we wish that we had when we were kids. What would your kids say, especially your older, the eight-year-old, what would they say if I said, what do you notice about your parents and money? You would say that we probably have some, but we don't like to use it. How would they know that? Because he knows, like, even when we go to the store that we don't buy it unless it's on sale. actually when I was asking him about um if he wanted to sign up for the swim clinic so how much is that he said that he said that it's kind of similar to what Chris's mom said two generations prior I feel sad actually why when I said it was 15 dollars he was like nah that's okay but I don't want him to turn down the opportunity to learn something or do something because something costs 15 dollars isn't that what happened yes I told him it's okay like we're We can afford it. And he was like, no, I don't want to do it. Mixed messages to yourself, mixed messages to each other, mixed messages to your eight-year-old. It's very difficult to teach kids about money when you yourself are not deeply rooted in a powerful vision of how money works and what you want to do with it. Your eight-year-old is responding very rationally. Hear mom and dad saying, how much is it? I'm going to say how much. And then what's worse, tell them the number and then you go, no, it's fine. mixed message if you all just decided like that's too much money i wouldn't mind if you just told them that's too much that's perfectly fine i'm not saying every parent has to spend money on everything of course not but the idea of the mixed messages is particularly hard for kids i know because they come on this show as adults and they tell me my parents used to tell me we had no money but then I would see them buying all kinds of stuff and cars and clothes and vacations. And they would still tell me we don't have any. I didn't know what to make of it. Do you have a vision for your money? A rich life vision? Yeah. I feel like we're living the rich life now. I mean, aside from having to go to work all the time, I think that we're not really stressed about bills and finances. We could probably have more goals and work towards specific goals and have a more defined plan. But I mean, it could be a lot worse than what we're at. Why is that the barometer? It could be a lot worse. I'm just saying I know a lot of people that struggle just to pay their credit card bills or make minimum payments. Why are we talking about them? You two make $450,000. You're not in the same league as them. Why are we talking about them? Guys, I can't make you want more. If you don't want more, that's perfectly fine. There's this misconception that I want everyone to spend all this money on stuff they don't care about. That's not me. If you don't want to spend more money, don't. If, Chris, what you said is accurate, we're living the rich life right now, amazing. Heather, would you agree? I think we are to some degree. I just want to make sure that we're balanced in our approach. Then I think if that's what you want, you should open up a calculator and plug in your numbers, and you should see how much you're going to have. Yeah, I guess it just doesn't change the feelings that are surrounded by the calculation. We've done calculations. We see numbers. We've plugged in spreadsheets. But that hasn't really changed our thought process or our behaviors. But every time I try to help you change your thought process and behaviors, you throw up a brick wall for me. Here I am asking, do you have a rich life vision? And both of you say, yeah, we actually do. We're living our rich life right now. Okay. then what are we talking about? I think to some degree, I want to be able to do a lot of things. And I think, you know, Chris mentioned earlier that we can only do one thing at a time. And that's sort of is another thing where we disagree and then we don't know how to get past. What do you wish Chris would understand if you could tell him in plain English? I guess I just want him to feel better and okay with spending money on things that are important to us. Like the home renovation stuff that we've talked about for years now. He hasn't been comfortable with just getting it all done. And so we've done a little piecemeal here, a little patch there. And, you know, we're years into it and our house is still half painted downstairs. Like we're right in the middle of that with our pantry project. We've had our food in tote bins in the garage for two years now. And I said, this is the final year. I'm not going through another year of not having any pantry storage. Why do you allow yourself to live like this? I'm trying to compromise with him of like, okay, well, can you get it done in this year or by this time frame? Does it get done? The last several things didn't get done. Smaller things, yes, but these bigger things, no. And so now we've lived through that. And I said, we have to pay somebody to do it at this point. We're approaching two, three years now with our stuff all over the place. Where's the compromise? You said you want something. It hasn't gotten done for years. there's no consequence and there's no end in sight well the compromise was up front like i gave him his way he started some work on he did some stuff and it's just not done yet and i said it has to get done i said before right before we had our last kid which was two years ago but then it was well we have the baby we're busy now so chris what do you make of this i mean they're all valid points we have these projects but we're also both very busy i don't mind paying somebody to do it but at the original proposal for the project was a crazy amount of money and she didn't want to pay that we were doing a bunch of stuff already and it was going to be an add-on like a change order thing that was going to be more than what we originally planned or discussed so we said okay not that not then or not at that time and he felt like it was in his skill set to complete the work I don't know guys I feel lost yeah I feel like you're lost too lost in the weeds lost in the details something that probably happens so often right yeah like where are we you came on board today went through a lot of work to come and talk to me told me that you want a plan you want confidence. Every time I talk to you about, do you have a rich life vision? Do you want, do you know how much you need? Brick wall. What's the vision? My rich life vision is that we're not stressed over stuff. We're able to be on the same page about big decisions and small decisions, traveling, you know, with ourselves, with our kids, date nights, having the ability to spend freely without carrying guilt around it. How have we not talked about any of this at all? We have not talked about date night once. Travel, we only talked about going to Starbucks. If you talk to my wife and me about what's our rich life, we're going to talk about travel. You go, where do you go? We have a whole list. We tell you all we prefer this. We do it that. We don't do this way. It's a whole thing. It's where our attention and energy is. The way that the two if you talk about money, it's just this huge burden. It's so uncertain. And so because it's uncertain, neither of you take one step forward. You just spin. And all this stuff that supposedly is part of your rich life, we haven't talked about it for one second today. Date night, it's literally the first time you brought it up. Do you agree, Chris, that's your rich life vision? Date night, travel? Yeah, I agree. I mean, we do enjoy our travels and it's something that we look forward to all the time. so where's do you have money going towards it we don't have a specific account labeled vacation or travel we just have an emergency fund that we dip into and then replenish what no no no no no like the last the upcoming travel that we have uh we we got an estimate for it and i emailed it to him i said hey does this look reasonable and he said yeah and so i paid the deposit for it. But that was out of our regular money. That's that 8,000 or whatever guilt-free spending money that that kind of stuff comes. Whoa. At every turn, I seem to be hitting a brick wall. So I got to change my approach. I'm going to be very directive. I'm going to show them the numbers that we ran based on the information they provided us, including Chris's pension. Listen in. I'm going to be a bit directive with the two of you, and I'm going to share a few things that I observe you could take it or leave it but the reason i'm doing this is that i feel the two of you are really stuck in a cycle of like obsessing over how you cannot predict things so because you can't do this thing you can't do any of the rest of your life and time is ticking and so like it's just building up this pressure and actually what you will quickly discover is that you have been putting your entire life on hold for no good reason you could have knocked out the answers to that in about two hours. If we talk about how much money you're going to have, you have a pension, Chris. So your pension is what, 75% of your income. That means $108,000 annually just from the pension. Following the current strategy, you're going to have $3.2 million when you are 50, Chris, approximately. That means including the pension and all that, that's $220,000 a year you can safely withdraw. I think we're doing like 3.5% withdrawal. And that's still with Heather with you working. So let me just pause right there. What does that make you think? That Heather should retire early with me. That sounds like safe. Yeah. It's like you're actually making more at that age than you are now. And you're already making a lot of money. Think about all the things you have put on hold or just not made decisions about because of some indeterminate day, which you didn't even calculate. I'm getting more frustrated than you because I want more for you than you want for yourself. And we're not talking about a couple making $35,000 a year, making more than 10 times that. Chris, if you wait until 55, you have $4.8 million. That's $276,000 a year in safe withdrawal. And if you wait to retire until 65. I'm sure you're not going to do that, but let's just say you did $10.3 million. Heather, what's that look on your face? It sounds impressive. Yeah, it's extremely impressive. And it puts our conversation in a new perspective today, doesn't it? What does it make you think? Without it being modeled for us before, we didn't even know where to go with it ourselves. So hearing some of this stuff talked about out loud is eye-opening in a good way. Yeah, I agree. You two have accomplished a lot. It's very impressive. Chris, what does it make you think? It makes me think that we should plan some more vacations. I agree. What are you feeling when you hear these numbers? I'm still trying to digest these numbers, but I guess I feel a little bit more secure than before. I do think that we should probably enjoy some money now and some money later. I agree. For me, it makes me think of two things. Number one, it makes me think of gratitude. Look at what we have been able to accomplish coming from upbringings where we were not really taught much about money and we made minimum wage. Look at how far we have been able to come. What a Journey. That's probably a journey we don't talk about with each other because we are so caught up in feeling behind, addicted to feeling behind. That is what the two of you are right now. Yeah. You are irrationally feeling behind because you could easily go and find these numbers yourself. It doesn't take long. And you're both quite smart and capable of doing it. But you are so clouded by feeling behind that you can't even go online and type them. And when you do type them, you don't believe the numbers. Even when a professional tells you, you still don't believe them. Think about that. There are layers upon layers of you not wanting to feel like you have arrived. You have. The second thing is how small you've been playing. Freaking $10 million coming up soon and you don't have a painted wall. The question is, what do you get out of playing small? And I think you both actually enjoy it. I think it gives you purpose and meaning. and I think people who grew up often without a lot of money they find themselves growing their bank account faster than their money psychology and so they actually relish the unfinished basement or wall why because it reminds them we're not those fancy people we're not those rich people we still have an unfinished thing we need to go to the garage to get our pantry items but maybe it's time to actually turn the page and acknowledge putting on a new coat oh we made it We're actually quite wealthy and we're getting wealthier. And it's probably time to adjust the way that we think about money, the way that we treat money and the way that we feel about money. How does this strike you? Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head. We haven't given ourselves permission, I guess, to do that. Chris, how does it strike you? I think that we're doing good. I've always felt like we were going to be able to retire, but I don't really agree with us being addicted to feeling behind. I just feel like we never had a benchmark to measure ourselves against. We can agree to disagree. You may really feel strongly. That's totally fine. That's actually not the point of what I said. What is the real point of what I said, Chris? It's not the addicted to feeling behind. That's just 1% of it. I mean, I agree with all the other things that you said. Everybody feels so uncomfortable here. I don't know what's happening right now. After having $10 million on the table. I'm excited about it. It's a huge relief to me. I have to temper my excitement because Chris is not sharing in that. Isn't that the whole point? That is exactly the whole point. Get on board. That you have to temper your excitement, that you have to shrink your desires for getting all freaking wall painted because Chris showing very little affect and basically having one operational mode, which is save, save, save with no purpose in mind. Isn't that the entire point of this conversation? That's just who I am. I don't get all riled up about these things. Oh, great. We got $10 million. Like this is amazing. Let's go blow it all right now. But why not? Why not get excited about having $10 million? I didn't used to smile. in my interviews for college scholarships. And I didn't realize it. I have kind of a mean face. Can we all agree? I look kind of mean. Inside, I have a heart of gold, but externally, I've been told. Whatever. So anyway, Chris, I kept losing these college scholarships. So I was pissed. I told my dad, dad, pull out the VHS camera and videotape me. And he videotaped me, did a mock interview in our living room. I need to find that tape. And he asked me the typical questions I was getting, I answered, I thought it was James Bond, very debonair. Then I looked at the tape. I looked mean. I looked like I was having no fun whatsoever. Here's my point. Inside my head, I was conversant and fun, et cetera. But to the people around me, I was actually sucking the energy out of the room. Chris, we are talking about the future of your family as it relates to money. 10 million, 20 million. You might have $50 million before you die. In fact, it's actually very likely. If you can't get excited about that, when can you get excited? For me, it's not super exciting because all my needs are met. How about your wife? What is the effect of your lack of enthusiasm? I get it. I'm dragging her down, but I could try to be more excited about it. This author I really love, Marshall Goldsmith, he writes a book about people who become successful and then they plateau. And one of his lessons I thought was so powerful, it is the lesson on the excessive need to be me. And this is, you've probably said things like this, you said it once today, you said, well that's just me, that's just who I am. Maybe, maybe when you were a kid and you had to be, but today you're a very successful husband, father financial participant and maybe the excessive need to be me is not serving you anymore i don't think it's all his fault and i don't want him to feel defensive about it i agree i think that's very kind of you this dynamic in any couple including my own is two people and as chris as you wrote about in your application you had some really candid stuff you wrote You know, it's not fair to get mixed signals from Heather about wanting to retire and then wanting to go buy super expensive stuff. I actually think the fact is you could probably do both. That's what I was really hoping for. You can. What do you think needs to change in order for you to do that? I think our spending is fine and maybe just our thoughts or emotions about it. I think you have to make a plan, a more careful plan together and probably start at the rich life vision level. I actually don't think the two of you have a clear vision. Why not? I think it's not written down. I don't think it's clear. And I think that you're probably operating off of scarcity, this idea of we're still playing where we were at age 25. I think it's time to metaphorically take off the shirt you're wearing and put on a different one. You're in a new phase of life. You're not wearing the same clothes you wore at age 22. You're not thinking the same. You're playing at a different level. And thank God for that. That's what you worked for. You worked really hard, paid off your debt aggressively, saved money. There's a purpose. It is not simply to hoard it. And I think, Chris, you kind of alluded to this when you said your mom doesn't really enjoy making the money or spending the money or say none of it. That's a lesson. You can choose the best of the things we want from your parents. We can also choose like that one. I'm not going to take. I'm going to do it a different way. If you don't know what enough is, then all of these numbers are meaningless. and I suspect that is why the first financial advisor who probably gave you very good advice you didn't believe him it's not a them problem it's not a calculator problem it's an opportunity for the two of you what's our vision what kind of life do we want to be living at age 50 55 are we both working are we not how often are we traveling why are we not traveling like that right now and on and on and on. Get crisp. And then you can set yourself up for quite an amazing life. Your kids, one day, they're going to be 20, 26, and so on. And presumably, they're going to have a lot of money coming their way. What should they know about how their parents handled money? I hope they learn that we put a lot of thoughts into it. Yes. Love that. What else? That they feel like we prioritize them. Love it. Chris? Just that we had to work hard for the money. It just didn't show up in our laps. And that we made smart choices in order to save, invest, and grow it. What about enjoying it? Are they going to know how to enjoy it properly, meaningfully? We have to get better about doing that. Exactly. The only way to effectively teach them is to master it yourselves. So that means starting to talk about the stories of what happened when you were growing up. How much you made, what does that mean? Create those legends in your own family. Starting to show them, here is what we choose to spend our money on as a family. Here's what we don't. Here's why. These are all ways that the money actually goes from being one-dimensional on a spreadsheet to almost three-dimensional real life. What surprised you in today's conversation, Heather? I guess the depths of some of the stuff that came out was something that we don't tap into. So talking about it today was something I think maybe we both knew we had to do for some time. And we've been putting it off. Chris, what about you? What surprised you about today? Just how different our perspective is. I thought that we were kind of on the same page and that we were doing well, but we're kind of different in the sense that she wants me to focus a little bit more on the now and how I'm sucking the life out of the room by not enjoying it as much. So my mood brings down her mood and things like that. I guess when you run those projections on our retirement, exactly how much it was, that was kind of eye-opening also. So great. Those are great surprises. I really appreciate those lessons you took away. I feel kind of relieved, but also kind of drained. I appreciate that. Heather? I feel more confident. I feel like we still have a lot of work ahead of us, but I feel hopeful. I really love that. If I could just leave you with one thing, you two have done extremely well financially speaking. It's very impressive where you are, especially considering where you came from, how you grew up. It's very cool. Now it's time to turn the page and actually change the way that you relate to money. You have earned the right to feel good about money. Chris and Heather have built serious wealth, but now they need to learn how to use it. And that means making some changes and actually growing into the next version of themselves. to successfully do this. They need to reset how they talk about money. Have you ever done this? Like an easy way to completely change the tone of their conversation is to use a simple script. I'll give it to you right now. I really enjoyed yesterday because it pushed me out of my comfort zone. Usually I show up defensive, maybe even a little resentful that I have to talk about money. But from now on, I'm going to show up open, curious, ready to change. This little adjustment is powerful. When you explicitly describe your before and after, you're giving yourself permission to begin a new chapter. You can focus on change and you can focus on connection and you can start to tiptoe away from feeling anxious about money. I also recommended that they attend couples counseling, not because anything's broken, but because I am a big believer in also working on your mental health. And that means building something stronger. And a lot of times when you're getting into a new chapter, it really helps to have a guide. The hardest thing I want them to do is to take a step back and ask themselves some difficult questions. Specifically, what are wealthy couples doing that we aren't? And what decisions are we avoiding? Once they have a sense of the changes they want to make, I want them to sit down and create a rich life vision, not just one together, but also two individual visions. And as they do this, I'm going to challenge them to define what enough really means. Pick a number, write down the assumptions. You can always change it later, but you've got to decide right now. Finally, I want them to update their CSP to reflect all of this, their goals, their priorities, even a vacation fund, especially the vacation fund. This is how they're going to move from fear to clarity. And now I'll let them tell you in their own words what they took away from this conversation. Hi, Ramit and team. It's been about a week since our call. Just wanted to say thank you again for taking the time to meet with us. It was intense. It was a little exhausting. I was in a full body sweat following the three-hour ordeal, but Ramit really pushed us out of our comfort zone to think about why we were making the choices that we do and to talk about things that we never really made time for to do in the past. Ramit also said that we were playing small and he challenged us to define what enough really means. And for me, a rich life is about having freedom, having security, and having the ability to share experiences with our family. Like earlier this year, we took a trip to South Korea, and foreign travel once a year is something that I want to continue doing with our family moving forward. Since the call, we made a few changes. We actually have a handyman who's going to be here later this week to take care of some of the house projects that we have lingering from last year. We've also made changes to our investments to automate things for our kids. And then we also bumped up our own investments so that we know that that foundation is going to be locked in. And we know that there's still going to be money left over. And hopefully I can spend that guilt free and feeling less conflicted. Good morning, everybody. I was just reflecting on the conversation that we had earlier. And one of my biggest takeaways from our conversation was when you said that I'm not smarter than an economist. so all the economists that i have read have always said that it is very difficult to narrow down exactly how much you need in retirement and some of the biggest concerns with retirees is elevated health care costs as well as increased housing and inflation come to find out i guess there is a calculator on ramit's website that will tell you exactly how much you need to retire so So after plugging in our numbers and answering a couple of simple questions, we got our number and we're working towards adjusting our financial plan in order to meet those numbers that we need. Looking forward to making some additional changes, but that's what we've done so far. I'll get back to you guys on my next follow up. It's been a couple of weeks since our last follow up. Recently, my grandmother's estate was settled and we are going to be working on our next monthly money meeting on a plan to divide up those funds. And hopefully that includes something planned for the future and something that we can enjoy now. One of the comments that stuck with me from our initial meeting was when Ramit talked about us playing small or thinking small, living small, something along those lines. And I feel like that is with me in the back of my mind when it comes to any sort of money decisions moving forward. And it's actually sort of branched out into more than just financial decisions. So I'm working on thinking big and playing big. Thank you. It's been three weeks and three days since our session with Ramit. Some of the insights that stuck with me during the session was when Ramit commented on my affect and said that I was stealing joy. So those are two things I've been trying to work on. and a difficult it's an uphill battle but that's my focus currently some specific changes that we made i've been trying to be better about my guilt-free spending just the other day i spent fifteen hundred dollars on getting new tires another thing is we got the book so thank you for that and we're going through it reading it it's something that we try to do at least every night. Thank you for that. And thank you for talking with us. Listen up. If you want my help with your specific money questions, there are only two ways to get it. First, you can apply to be on this podcast at IWT.com slash apply. Or second, you can join my money coaching program instantly at IWT.com slash money coaching. In that program, you get access to live virtual events, monthly group coaching calls, live Q and A's and an amazing, huge community of other people like you. Check it out at IWT.com slash money coaching.