Creation Story

Hey, I'm Molly Webster. Hey, I'm Mona McGowker. Mona and I just made a snail episode. It's called Snail Sex Tape. And we have not stopped talking about snails for like months. We've become deeply obsessed with snails. I think we should all get snail tattoos. Ooh, snail tattoo could be cute. But you know what you can get instead of a snail tattoo. What? You can get an enamel snail pin in honor of our snail sex tape episode. I've never been more honored in my life. I know. It is based on a real medieval snail miniature. I will be rocking it on my jean jacket all spring long. So to get one of these pins, you have to join the lab. And when you join the lab, in addition to helping fund our show, you get access to sponsor-free podcasts, plus monthly bonus content, plus invitations to events with the team. Including an AMA that we're going to be doing next month, you and me about the behind the scenes of making snail sex tape. Behind the shell. BTS. All you have to do is go to radiolab.org slash join. And if you use the code word snail, you get two months off the first year of an annual membership. Get your pin. And we can't wait to see you guys next month. Thanks, everyone. Wait, you're listening. OK. All right. OK. All right. You're listening to radiolab. From WNYC. The six. See? Yep. Lottie, how do I pronounce your name? Because I'm pronouncing it the Yemeni way. Do you pronounce it the Yemeni way? I'm like, I'm excited about you pronouncing it the Yemeni way. Because it's used heavily by Yemenis. Lottie. Like just to mean like something's nice or something? Yeah. Or how's your day going? Lottie. Oh, yeah. I love it. Oh, that makes me feel so warm. Wait, now pronounce your name for me. So I know what how to say your name in Yemeni way. Unpronounceable. Ala. Ala. Ala. It's like at the end, it's too much. Everyone kept calling me Ala. And I was like, I know I'm great, but you know. I think that's too far, guys. Hey, I'm Lottif Nasser. This is radiolab. And I'm talking with Ella, Alshamahi. She's a paleoanthropologist and evolutionary biologist. And she's like, honestly, the modern day Indiana Jones. She travels all over the place, collecting fossils. Sometimes this takes her into active war zones or through pirate invested waters. And she does all of this to help piece together the story of how humans came to be. Thing is, as well, our story is kind of epic, man. Our story is epic. She's got a new TV show out now on the BBC and PBS. And in it, she explains that the origin of our species is kind of surreal. We lived in a world that was a bit like Lord of the Rings. There was obviously the Neanderthals, so many people have heard of. But there were all these other species, including one of my favorites, homophoresiensis, who are basically these hobbit like humans. They were really short. They were about three and a half feet tall. Now, that means humans the size of penguins were living on this island in Indonesia called Flores. And on this island, there were giant rats and elephants the size of cows. So humans the size of penguins were hunting elephants the size of cows. And at the same time that you had the Neanderthals and these penguin people, there were also other groups like the Denisovans, the Neanderthals of Asia. There was a species called Homo naledi, another one called Homo lucinensis. This was the world that, you know, we were born into a world where our little tribe was competing with these other little humanish tribes and often losing. We were constantly not succeeding. And then we did and we did in the biggest way possible. And the fact that we did, that it was us and not one of these other groups. Ella says that was extremely unlikely. The story of how that happened is amazing. It's what her TV show is all about. But what I wanted to talk to Ella about was this other very unlikely thing, her origin story and the fact that she's the one telling us about all this stuff in the first place. OK, so what you're referring to that is something which I guess I have not really known how to talk about. God, I've been talking quite recently. In fact, one of my friends turned around and said, just last year, you said that you might go to a grave with this. I was like, oh, yeah. Why is, why was, why has this been so tender? I, you come from a religious background. I did. I was very devout. No way. Yeah. And then I went off to high school, I went off to college and I was like, oh, this isn't what I thought it was. And the, yeah, I don't know. I did not know that. Yeah. I never get to have this conversation with people who have any kind of religious background, let alone a Muslim background. Yeah. I think my fear is that I do not want my story to be a stick to beat people who are in religious communities with. I don't want that either. And actually, I feel like hearing Ella's story in her own words and how surprising and insightful and moving it is, like, I think it'll do the opposite. So I just asked Ella to tell me about it starting from the beginning. The community was incredibly tight. It was incredibly protective. It was absolutely overprotective as well. You know, like, I, as a woman, I'm sure. Yeah. Oh my God. Yeah. Like I didn't wear trousers. I didn't want makeup. It was, it was an ultra conservative community. Where were you again? Where were you growing up? Birmingham, England. Birmingham. Yeah. Yeah. So my parents are Yemeni, but the community was kind of quite pan-Arab and regardless of the denomination you came from or the sect or whatever, you were pretty much anti-evolution and I really, really took to it. Like for me, that's OK. So the way when I grew up, it was this feeling of, OK, evolution is true, but Allah is this invisible hand guiding evolution. It feels like you didn't have that. Yeah. No. Clearly, you know, your family exists. Clearly, there were families and individuals who did explain things like that. Right. Right. But there was no space for evolution in my family. And there was absolutely none in the missionary world. Yeah. And what did you believe? Like, what was the creation story that you believed? Yeah. How did you think people came to be? So I personally believed that we were created in a week, basically. God created it as in a week, as in the whole world, including Adam and Eve. It's weird. I feel like I know the Christian creationist story better than I know the Muslim creationist story in a way or is it very similar? They're very, very similar. The one difference is that the Christians give God a day off. Muslims are like, God doesn't need a day off. Anyway, so Allah was all in on this version of Islam. And before she even learned how to drive, she started sharing it with other people. Yeah. I became a missionary at the age of 13 and like traveled the UK being a missionary. And missionary means like you were going to who are you going to talk to? Well, I was speaking to more lapsed Muslims. OK, yeah. But also to the wider public. That was a hard. So what what years were these like? Basically, you know, in the 90s, I was basically certainly in the 2000s. Because I was thinking like after 2000, that would have been a much harder job talking to the lay public about Islam. Well, except that we felt like we had clearly been misrepresented by these lunatics, right? By these terrorists and also remember our communities were therefore under more attack. Right. I'll say I was really young. I it was kind of the world I knew and I guess I have always been an all or nothing kind of person. Like I clearly do not know how to do things in halves. And so I was like, OK, so this is the world around me. I'm not going to just do it in the calm, chill that way that I should have done it like my siblings. You were more like hard, hard edge about it. Maybe I was more hardcore. Hardcore. You were more hardcore than your siblings. I mean, you know, if you were to speak to them and I don't want to put words in their mouth. No, they they're just like, you just didn't have any chill. You know, so it's really funny. So they look at me now and they're like, yes, still don't have chill. Like you just went from one extreme to the, you know, just really funny because they're not wrong. Like I could have just, you know, they're just relaxed. Was it one of those things like I remember for us, like it was like, like, and I was I feel like I was somewhat similar as you. Like he's like a bunch of my friends, like they would they would go to the mosque or go to Masjid there and then they would like. But then it's like afterwards, like it's like Friday night, like we're going to go drinking and we're going to like that kind of thing. We would have had thoughts about you. No, I didn't do that. My buddies did that. And I was the straight edge kid who was like, no, no, no, I'm not drinking. I'm not I'm not I'm not smoking weed. I'm not doing anything. So I was so strict that those guys wouldn't have even been my friends. Yeah, except that I might have taken them on as projects. Right. So OK, imagine you're a missionary and you're that age and you're good, right? Yeah. Your big thing that's hanging over you is what you're going to do at university. Because that was a big deal in your family. Yeah. And our family having a master's degree is the equivalent of a high school education. Wow. And who were what are all these people? What did they study? All kinds of things. Historians, some legal, but like theology kind of legal minds. And my dad was very encouraging of us going into the sciences. Other people from her community had studied science to go into medicine or engineering, but Ella had a different idea. I was like, I'm going to go study evolution because I'm going to destroy Darwin's theory. Wow. Yeah. Attack on the underlying assumptions of things. And then to expose them and then to persuade them and then to like... To basically proselytize my version of it. You know, OK, so you're saying it's like this. Well, actually, have you considered it's actually like this? Yeah. Have you considered the data could actually fall into this interpretation instead? And why that? Like, why was that the thing you fixated on? Because I'm a missionary. My whole purpose is like to bring people to the message, to bring people to God. Right. And one of the biggest reasons why they're not is that they believe that God doesn't exist. And the reason for that is the evolution exists. So it's like, it really is like for you, I mean, it feels like it's like the same debate from like Darwin's time. Like it's like, oh, we think we came from apes, we came from God. Yeah, that whole monkey story ain't going to fly kind of thing. So, OK, so when you applied, like what did you say or what did they... Yeah, somebody asked me this recently, they were like, hold on, hold on. So you sat there in the interview and you were like, yeah, so I'm just going to be destroying your theory from the inside. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, what did you say? None of that. I just was like, I really want to study genetics. I think it's amazing. I love all the evolution classes, blah, blah, blah, blah. But you were lying. That was a lie. I mean, I was... Was it? I guess so. I'm not happy with the fact that you use that word, but I guess it was. Yeah. Because it was a lie of a mission, for sure. Yeah, well, actually, I guess it must have been a lie because when they ask you, why do you want to study this? The actual answer is because I want to destroy this. And I clearly wasn't saying, ah, damn it. Did you... was this like a private mission or did you talk to people about this? My... the other missionaries all knew about this. Yeah. So yeah, so, but it wasn't... You know, I was never turning around telling the, you know, other classmates who were... You were a double agent, basically. I like the sound of that. I mean, if you'd have known me at the age of 18, I was a dork. So, the idea of being a double agent is somewhat hilarious. Look, I was obsessed. I was a woman on a mission. And so I turn up to University College London, which for those of you in the know, is known as the Godless Place on Gower Street because it's the first university to have, like, allowed non-Church of England people to kind of join up. And I went to the Darwin building because Charles Darwin himself, he lived there. And that was my department. And by the way, it's kind of hilarious because I was like dressed in very, very conservative Muslim garb. I wasn't even just in a hijab. I was in the full. So I wasn't just in the head covering. I was in the full jilabai, which is like that full cloak. By the way, not that there's anything wrong with dressing however you want. I'm like, man, you just be you. You know, there were a few girls in hijab, actually, but they were interested in more medical genetics. They weren't kind of doing what I was kind of what I was covertly up to. I remember there was one girl who was also kind of vaguely associated with my world kind of thing. And she was there and I was so excited because I thought I'd found like a partner in her. I was like, oh my God. And I was sitting there and I was like, right. So this bit of the theory, like I'm just thinking that actually there's a different interpretation that you can have for this data, blah, blah, blah. And she just freaked out and she looked at me and she was just like, look, I'm here because this is a mandatory course. I have to pass this evolution class. Otherwise I don't get my degree. Like she had a firewall up. Yeah. But for Ella, there was no wall. Like she was pushing these two worlds right up against each other. So there's like two things going on. Right. So I'm just living my life being a missionary. I have an arranged marriage and like via my Imam, by the way, my dad wasn't even involved. That started in university or in grad school? Oh, it was my first semester at university. Really? The Imam suggested to me that yeah, he wanted me to marry one of his other students. And I was like, okay. And so that took a while. Excited about, were you flattered? Was that, did that feel good or did that feel icky? You know what? Like I, I didn't know him. I had three chaperoned meetings with him to decide if I was going to agree to marry him. And then we basically never talked ever. I can't explain it enough. I just didn't know him. Right. You know, and like we had to get my dad to agree. And so that took a while because dad didn't want me getting married before I'd finished my first degree. And so we had to wait. And so, you know, all of this was going on as, you know, traveling up and down, like doing this, doing that. And at the same time, it's like, it's just constantly like picking at this, this, this theory of Darwin's. Right. I mean, effectively what I was doing was trying to unpack a massive puzzle. Now, everybody else had already unpacked it 150 years ago. And I'm coming along being like, hold on. Although we can put these pieces together another way. We can just, we haven't thought of something. Give me a minute. And by the way, some people do that to great success. Some people have won Nobel Prizes on the back of this. I just picked the wrong puzzle. Right. So Ella is going to class every day, learning about the evidence for evolution and the story the scientists say that that evidence tells us. And of course, she's looking for holes in that story. And one of the first holes that Ella had always noticed was that particular moment in evolution when one species somehow like poof. Becomes another. Like, how does that happen? And then one day she's sitting in class and the professor starts talking about this experiment. The Drosophila fruit fly experiment. Yeah. So basically, because the, because Drosophila live for such a short amount of time, you can basically like, you know, instead of it being, you know, a mountain pops up between two animals and it takes like, you know, hundreds of thousands of years for them to evolve. You're doing it with Drosophila in a lab and you're kind of doing it a much shorter time frame. You're just kind of separating them. Yeah. And without getting into it, they were starting to see the process of speciation in the lab. And I was like, oh, that's not good. Because if we're watching them become new species, we're watching evolution, which I don't think happened. Yeah. But my, my only comfort with that experiment was that it was being done in the lab. And I just thought, okay, but that might not be happening in nature. Yeah. Maybe it's being forced in the lab. Maybe in nature that wouldn't be happening. But she keeps going to more lectures and eventually she's running into other problems like. Stratigraphy, just the layers of earth and that kind of sequence of animals that you get in them. And they are broadly chronological. And you do see an evolution process then. Yeah. You just do. It's really, really hard. It's like you dig deeper, you see simpler things kind of generally. Yeah. You know, it is forgive my language. You can't, you're like the BBC, right? You can't broadcast swearing. No, we can broadcast swearing. Yeah. Oh, nice. Sorry, I've been cleaning up my language. No, go for it. Yeah, like you would, you would be looking at these stratigraphic sequences. And it was, you know, forgive my language, but it was a motherfucker because you were just like, right, we haven't gone from complex to simple. By and large, we go from simple to complex or more complex. And it was just a consistent pattern. And it's very, very hard to explain that. So then I was like, OK, theologically, the real, real issue is Adam and Eve, right? So technically speaking, I can believe in evolution as long as it's not Adam and Eve, as long as it's not us, we're the exception, right? Right, right. So you're like, OK, so, so you gave a little ground. You were like, this makes sense. I can give a lot of ground. All other species. All other species. All the other billions. That's right. But not us. Yeah. And then what happened was I came across retro transposons, which are very, very complicated to explain, but basically it's like a foreign organisms, DNA within our own bodies. Within every. So retro transposons, they're little bits of DNA from, for example, a virus that infected our ancestors millions of years ago and just like got stuck in our genome and passed on from generation to generation. They're like this little historical record of something that happened to us a long, long time ago. And the reason Ella remembers this is that when she was learning about retro transposons in a lecture, the professor mentioned this weird fact about these little bits of DNA. The pattern of mutations within the retro transposons that we have. Yeah. A line on a family tree with what you would expect from evolution if you then looked at those same retro transposons within chimps. In other words, these little bits of DNA, I mean, there are hundreds of them are lodged in the chimp genome in exactly the same places that they're lodged in our genome. How does that, like the only interpretation for the mutations that you find in retro transposons is that it is evolution through descent with modification over, you know, hundreds of thousands. There's no other interpretation. Like God would have had to copy paste or something? Yeah. Like this is the thing because one of the arguments that for those of you don't know, one of the arguments that creationists use. To explain, well, why is our DNA so similar? Right? Like why is our DNA so similar to chimps? They're like, yeah, but they look similar and they have so many similar behaviors and there's so many mechanisms and blah, blah, blah. I don't know level on one level. You're like, oh, okay, that is actually like there is some logic to that. Yeah. Retro transposons. They're not functional. Yeah. It's not like, oh, it's a bit of DNA that helps me process, for example, water or helps me process carbohydrates. It's a non-functional bit of DNA and yet its mutation pattern fits almost perfectly with an evolutionary family tree. And it was just like, it's just sorry, that's the noise that you make when your whole life is about to fall apart. That exact noise is the noise you make. And I was just in hell. Like I was in hell. There'd be times where I'd just be looking out my window just going, oh my God, like, what is this? Like, what am I going to do? Were you living with this guy at that point? Or what were you? With this guy, my ex-husband. Yeah. You're married? Yeah. Our marriage wasn't doing great. Partly because we had an arranged marriage and we didn't know each other, but partly for a number of different reasons. One of which was this issue. Like, you know, he like, I was clearly struggling. And then there was a moment, just an awful moment, which was kind of, I was just in the shower. And as you often do in the shower, you're kind of just having a conversation with yourself. You're also, you know, bluntly naked and you're very exposed, but you're in a safe place, right? And I kind of, I basically, I basically tell myself that I have to find the strength to be honest. That I just, I believe in evolution. And I just felt at the floor, like I just, I was like hysterically crying. I was so, so distraught. And the reason I was so distraught at this point was that I knew that meant I was going to have to leave my world. How do you leave your whole world and try to join another one? And what does it do to you if you do that? We'll be right back. While Fox and other right wing outlets maintain their support of the administration, elsewhere, the president's base appears shaky. If you look at the comments on articles, if you look at the replies to posts on X, they see the attack on Iran and the Epstein Falls in a very similar way. They view them as breaking promises that Trump made in his campaign. Don't miss this week's On The Media from WNYC. Find On The Media wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Latif Nasser. This is Radio Lab. I'm talking with Ella Alshamahi, who went into college as a creationist and came out an evolutionary biologist. A 180 that she feared would basically destroy her life as she knew it. I had no idea what was going to happen with my family. Because, you know, it hadn't happened in my family before, right? But what I didn't know is it was going to be a big hit. And why did it feel like why did it feel so existential? Like, like, like you these things could not coexist. There was no room for you to believe in evolution and still be a part of your community. Because it's such an extreme thing in my world. And say that you believe in evolution and, you know, that's just we just didn't do that. And by the way, all cases where that didn't happen, I think it's just a very, very important thing. We just didn't do that. And by the way, all cases where that did happen, like, let me tell you, loads of those girls got cut off. Thank God my siblings came through in the way that they did. Wow. How did they come through? They decided to embrace me regardless. They decided that I was less just a regardless. Oh, makes me want to cry. And what about like your friends and other people in the community? I didn't tell people. I just disappeared. I didn't tell people. You just ghosted people? Yeah, I literally just disappeared. And that's because I was a missionary and I knew the training. And the training is if somebody, you know, falls, you go collect them basically. And I did not have the energy. And also this is the strange thing. I didn't want anyone else to follow me because I didn't want them to go through what I was going through. I was like, no, you know what? You don't need to learn about evolution. You just stay where you are. This is awful. It was truly awful time. I had no idea how to exist in a secular world. Suddenly, every single thing did not have a rule attached to it, which you might think is freeing, except if that's the only thing you've ever known, that's terrifying. It was like you went into the bathroom with a left foot, you left with a right foot, you wrote with your right hand. You, you, the prophet would have done this situation. Yeah, it's like every single thing is prescribed. And suddenly it was like, good luck. I didn't make eye contact with men. Yeah. I literally never made eye contact with men. I, I, I took my headscarf off and I basically, I turned up to the, to like a gas station. Yeah. And it was the most anticlimactic. And has probably informed a huge part of my partner since because no man cared. I had been told my whole life that like, you know, my hair was like, and, and, you know, you've got to cover up because it's a fit night. It's like, it's corrupt. It's like, it corrupts the earth if you, it's a bad translation, but like, you know, it's, it's all the things that you, these things you've got to do to not, because it's like raw, it's like raw sexuality. It's like that kind of thing. Is that the feeling? I don't know what it was, because let me tell you, nobody cared. Like nobody cared. Nobody. I cannot express this enough. There were no men dropping from my sheer beauty. Nobody was fainting. Nobody was doing anything like nobody cared. And it was so funny. But it was, you know, it was quite an adjustment. It was like, I've, I've got to now learn to fit in. And it's funny because I think anthropologists traditionally, and as you know, I'm a paleo anthropologist, you know, you kind of go and sit with these exotic and inverse and commerce tribes and you kind of learn their ways. Right. And I was like, my exotic tribe is just central London. You know, that's it. Yeah. Me and I would sit there studying people's behaviour and like going, all right, so this is how they act. Okay. So this is, okay. All right. So that's, you know, I wrote a book about the handshake. Right. Writing a book about the handshake does not come because somebody is like just casually not questioning. Writing a book about the handshake comes when you are obsessively reading the behaviour of every person around you. Right. Because in your culture, you never shook hands with men. Right. I had this one friend who was just like, oh, you must be so relieved to be free. And I was just like, do you understand the trauma that I've just been through? I didn't want this. This isn't what I wanted. Certainly like now, 10, 13 years later, I can look back and go, I'm glad that, you know, I'm not constrained by dogma unless I pick that dogma. But, you know, let's not pretend that this is a fun world. I mean, it's I definitely rather be here, but let's not pretend it's perfect. Like, I think the community thing is such a, I think this is what I have found really, really, really difficult to explain to so many of my secular friends who are basically my tribe. Now, let's be honest, right? Yeah. I will never ever, ever be in a community like that again. I think religious communities are warm. They engulf you. They embrace you. Your hot water goes off. Everybody offers you their place. Somebody ends up in hospital and people get angry with the hospital administration because they're like, what are you talking about? Only two people during visiting hours and what's this visiting hours? This person needs us all around the clock. And it's just kind of. Oh my God, I feel that I'm raising kids right now and I'm not raising them in the mosque that I grew up in and it's like, it's sad. It's I yearn for that. It's so difficult. It was like, it was like, I didn't know who I was anymore. And the people that are around me that would normally love me and knew who I was, they were all new to. And in the midst of all this upheaval, Ella was still going to school and starting to become obsessed with the thing she would spend her entire career studying. Our origin story, that moment when there were all these little groups of proto humans living together on the planet at the same time, but also very much separate from one another. I think it is no surprise that having gone through what I've gone through, that when I look at our story, the science of our story, that I, I feel something. Like I feel something. We know that everybody from outside of Sub-Saharan Africa and even some people within Sub-Saharan Africa have some Neanderthal DNA in them. And that can only be explained by basically one of our great, great, great grandparents getting it on. Yeah. Having sex with a Neanderthal. So there's a scandal in the family, basically. No, no. Usually. Right. The way this would be presented is, oh, there's some Neanderthal DNA. So that means that there was, there was some kind of intercourse, blah, blah, blah. All right. We take a moment and instead it's like, hold on a second, right? That means that one of our ancestors, not like a theoretical, like one of my, and your ancestors was half, half. Right. And I'm, I'm not mixed race, but I'm mixed heritage. So I'm a British Arab, right? Right. Let me tell you, that was confusing growing up at times, right? At times I was like, it's a bit weird. I'm like, what would it be like to not just be mixed heritage, don't be mixed race, but mixed species? Like what would that have been like? And what would the mother have felt? Like, how would she have felt? Would she have been sitting there hoping that the child would look more homo sapiens than Neanderthal? Because, you know, she doesn't want them to get ostracized. She doesn't want them to get teased. Like pregnant, like, like that mom is sitting there pregnant, like thinking about what her baby, whether her baby's going to have a brow ridge or a chin or something. Seriously. Is there any evidence to suggest that crossovers like Neanderthal and homo sapiens, us couplings made us more successful? Like that those. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So we were the new kid on the block. And for example, when we entered into Neanderthal territory, Neanderthal territory being kind of Europe and Northern Asia, we would not have had immunities to local diseases. So when we interbreed with those people, it's effectively like a cheat. So suddenly we end up with immunities to things that would have taken us ourselves tens, if not hundreds of thousands of years to evolve for. There are some really, really good examples actually. And the best one is the Tibetan example. Are you familiar with this one? No, tell me. So Tibetans live obviously very high altitude and the mechanisms, the genetic mechanism by which they are able to exist at high altitude is very different from the genetic mechanism that exists in other populations who exist at high altitude. And the mutation is actually one that they inherited off Denisovans. Like we drank their superpowers kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So now, so there are these sort of hybrid people. Yeah. And you are kind of like, in a way, you're one of these crossover people. I mean, this experience is so ideal that you went to. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but like what, it's okay. So if this is, if that's the value of the crossover person, it's like, oh, I can get, I, I now have superpowers from both worlds or something. Um, what did you gain from that crossover? I, I would say I was so traumatized by it and still am like within a, like a second, I could get quite upset about it. Um, and I think when you've been through that, you are much more patient with people who deny the science, don't trust the science. Um, because I understand that I am, when I am trying to persuade somebody of a scientific point, nine times out of 10, I'm not trying to persuade them of one scientific point. I'm effectively taking apart their worldview. Yeah. And because I've gone through that, I approach that with empathy by and large. Doesn't mean that every softener don't get irritated. Um, but I just fundamentally at my core understand that when somebody has that belief, it's not one belief, it's a belief system. And, um, I then approach it as such. So then what's, what I find myself doing is I actually have less interest in debating that point with them and more interested in bonding with them as a person and showing them who I am and me seeing their humanity. That's why it's gently does it for me in terms of the methodology and also fundamentally in my mind, accepting that they may never believe me. They may never accept my version of events and that's okay. Okay. Ella. I'll show my. Again, her show is called human. It's on PBS and the BBC. Man, she's so good in it. And it really features the full menagerie of proto humans. The team of fully human humans who put this episode together, not even one Neanderthal among them was Jessica Young and Pat Walters with help from Sarakari. It was fact checked by Diane Kelly, special thanks to Humsasayed and Misha Youssef and you for listening. Um, we will be back soon with another episode. I just, I just have to kill this tiny elephant first. Ah, catch you later. Hi, I'm Monica and I'm from Mexico City. And here are the staff credits. Radio Live was created by Jab Abumrod and is edited by Zoran Wheeler, Lulemile and Latif Nazar RL Coho. Dylan Keife is our director of sound design. Our staff includes Simon Ebbler, Jeremy Bloom, W. Harry Fortuna, David Gable, Maria Pazutieres, Cindy Jan Sanbandan, Matt Kilty, Annie McEwen, Alex Mason, Sarah Kari, Sarah Sanbach, Anissa Pizza, Ariane Wack, Pat Walters, Molly Webster and Jessica Young with help from Rebekah Rand. Our fact checkers are Diane Healy, Amy Lickriger, Anna Pujol-Massini and Natalie Middleton. Hey, Radio Lab. Michael Tacoma, Washington. Leadership support for Radio Lab Science Programming is provided by the Simons Foundation and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radio Lab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation. WNYC's journalism and storytelling is heard by millions of passionate listeners. Sponsors of our programming gain our listeners' attention and their respect. Learn about how your organization can support WNYC and WNYC studios at sponsorship.wnyc.org.