Try Not to Laugh with Ayo Edebiri and Don Cheadle

I owe your parents were pretty on board with you. Were you always kind of the quirky kid? Well, obviously in my memories, I'm like deeply normal. And then my cousins are always like, oh, you were so funny and weird. And I'm like, okay, well, how funny? This episode of IMO is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Well, everybody, welcome to IMO in New York. It's a special episode because I'm by myself. My big brother, Craig, is in New York. Yeah, it was one where Craig was, I guess. You know, traveling, everything. It's not, you know, he's a busy guy, busy guy. But I'm here and we're in New York because I just saw an amazing production of Proof on Broadway. And we're gonna talk about that here today. There's two, a couple of special people here who are the reasons why this play is so amazing, Don and I. Oh, it's good to have you here. Thank you. For those of you who don't know Higher Ground, Barack and I, we were also co-producing this amazing production and we are just thrilled to be a part of it because this version of the play is exactly the kind of stuff that Barack and I wanna be involved with, telling stories that are reimagined in ways that have an impact. So we are thrilled, but I have to formally introduce you all to the IMO audience. So I'm just gonna read your quick bios just in case you don't know who you are. Oh, appreciate it. Okay. But we have Don Cheadle, the one and only, is one of Hollywood's most versatile and enduring talents. I like that. This is my friend, so I know you're a little embarrassed. Perhaps best known for his performances in the film's Devil in a Blue Dress, which I just re-watched a couple of days ago. My gosh, I also just re-watched a couple of days ago and it's a really good movie. It's so good. You just turned into another dude. And I guess that's your job. Yes, Mouse, yeah. Yes, Mouse. But also Boogie Nights, Traffic and Hotel Rwanda that earned you an Academy Award nomination. Don is an actor, producer and activist whose work on and off screen reflects a deep commitment to storytelling that matters. Thank you. And Io, my little friend here, is one of the most exciting young talents in Hollywood. Let's go. I know whose groundbreaking role as Sydney in FX's acclaimed series, The Bear, earned her an Emmy, a Golden Globe, and virtually every other major television award in a single sweep. Damn girl. She is an actress, writer, director and comedian whose meteorite, Gries, has made her one of the most sought after voices of her generation. How about that? Yeah, what do we do with that? What do you do with that? What do I do with that? Little person. I don't know, just try to make it to, what day of the week is it? I don't know. We already decided that. We don't know. We don't know. I've been calling it one day, but you guys didn't write that too much. No, it's just a nice thing. Whatever it is. You can read it, I'm not gonna have this far. Clear, but there's something there. I think if it was written, it feels like a New Yorker comic joke. You know what I mean? Yeah, it feels like that sort of vibe. Because it would be a Monday, but then with it, one day. Damn off and then one day. Already visualizing it, I'm laughing. I was a smile on my face. You too. I'm feeling lighter. Clearly connected already. What did you know each other before, proof? Because you're like, you really have known each other forever. No. Which works really well for this play. No, we did not. I mean, we'd met, but we hadn't spent any real time with each other. And for me, because it predates me, you were talking about this play with Tommy and with Mike before I was on board. Tommy Cale, the director of Mike Bosner. Mike Bosner, lead producer. Yeah. By the time I came into it and knew I.O. was going to be playing Catherine, I was so excited about it. And when we first met, not to be trite, but it just felt like what you're saying. It did feel like we'd known each other a long time. I felt instantly paternal. I felt my daughter's very close to her age. And I just, yeah. Yeah. So it was just right off the bat. And then once we started working and realized that we worked in a similar way and that we had similar ideas about the approach to the material. And it just all kicked off and kept going. Did you have someone in mind? Were you thinking of Don as you were thinking about this reimagined version of the play? I think, well, Don's name, I'm not. I mean, I think it was the first one that we came up with. I think also sometimes, I don't know, maybe this is just me, but I always do sort of like exercises of like, oh, who could be my parent? You know, who'd be like the dream person. And I think a part of it is, obviously vibe and all those things, but just people who you really admire and whose work you really love. And yeah, Don's sort of like always been on my eternal list. And it was like the first name that both Tommy and I had said. We were like, okay, let's go away and come up with names. And then it was like, well, I mean, but I wasn't sure, as I think I do often with people that I revere, I was like, I don't even know if he'd be interested in this. If he knows who either of us is, I don't know. And the fact that he said yes was just a dream. But then again, meeting, I think sometimes it can be really hard to meet your heroes. And I think we've all had experiences where you walk away and you're like, okay, well, that's information that I have now. And I mean, you know, I'm your friend, but like there was just such a graciousness, but also, and I'm really averting eye contact. I get it, I get it. Look at him in the eye. I think. Yes. When, for me, it's always really heartening. I love my job. I would like to do it for as long as possible. And when I meet people who I really admire and revere and I see that to them, they are still on the first day. Like they are still so in communication with their inner child and with their curiosity and what they're drawing. Or you call them down a big baby. Huge. Wow. Nice extraction. Got there very deftly. Just really childish and sort of, I mean, what the good child learned. No, but just, you know, like there's still a curiosity and a hunger and like, I don't know. It's, there's no, not that there, it's like, not a dissatisfaction, but you know what I mean? It's like. Yes, there is a dissatisfaction. You're just not content. He's never content. Yeah. Yeah. Always questioning. Always searching. Yeah, exactly. And that's a very similar journey that I think we're both on. Well, let's give our listeners, our audience, a sense of what proof is about. Because it's a revival. It opened in 2000. Yes. Playwright is David Auburn. Tony winner, Pulitzer Prize winning. Yes. Play and not everybody is familiar with proof. Can you guys talk about premise and why this reimagined version is so powerful? Well, the play, according to David, or like to quote David, when he describes it, because often people ask, you know, what is it about? And he says, at its core, it's a family drama. And at the center of it is Catherine, who I play, who is 25. And maybe I'll try to do a spoiler free version, but it explores the relationships between herself and her father, who was a genius but troubled mathematician and professor, her sister, who they all live in Chicago, who now lives in New York and comes back home and one of her father's protege's, a student named Hal. And yeah, it goes through time. It goes through their relationships. And one of the questions at the center of it is, I don't know, there's a lot of different questions, but legacy and truth. Yeah, those are big themes in it. I don't know. Madness, genius, you know, where is the line? How does it straddle it? How does it look like? What does it look like? What does success look like? What does sisterhood look like? In a huge way. Trust. Responsibility, trust. It's a big play. It's a big play. And the original play was, it was written for a white cast, a white family. And Tommy Kale and Mike decided, and was it intentional to revive it with a black family? Did you all have those discussions? I think Tommy, you know, wanted to, I think Tommy and David had entered a conversation and with Mike at some point and they decided that they wanted Catherine to be Aya. So once they decided that, they sort of dictated who the family would be in some ways. Both Cara and Jen, Cara Young and Jen Ha who are also in the play with us. Cara plays your sister, my sister. Love, Cara, for those of you who love Broadway, she was in Purpose Amazing in that. Yes, she is a living legend. She's a legend out here. It is really cool to be, I don't know, to work with her and know her and love her and just be like, I'm watching. I know what I'm watching. It's very cool. And then Jen Ha plays Hal. He's Hal, who's amazing, actor as well. But there, I call them our Broadway doulas because they're a little bit more versed than us. And both of them were like, it feels almost like working on a new play. The way that we have been rehearsing and workshopping with each other, which is really exciting. It's a bit different from film and TV because with this, with theater, it's all about the process. That's kind of all you have. You have all this rehearsal time. You're so funny. I was looking at it. Did you see? You too. Well, let's talk more about the process. It's like, Dad, don't do that. Ew. When you were drinking a bug, I had to do it. You see it though. It's got a bug in your water. I mean, that's a specialty of IMO. We try to get protein. Exactly. I'm sure another one will get in there soon. But let's talk a bit about the fact that for both of you, this is your brought in. I'm not scared of a bug. Do you want to know? No, I'm cool. You know, don't like that. Do you know how many bugs we eat a year? He's one with the earth. That's right. He understands that. I don't know actually how many bugs we eat a year. You guys can look it up. You know, I'm sure when you love something. It's just no telling. What's the average of people like Don who are eating probably a thousand bugs a year? I'm probably eating more bugs than most. Who's taking the bug out of their water? That's right. But we digress. We digress. We digress. We digress. But we don't know because I and I, we do not try bugs. No, we don't. We'll get that info flying. That's good. But anyway, this is both of your debut on Broadway. So why now, especially Don, for you, old man? Cool. Cool. I'll take that. Yeah, that one was for you, the old man. Yeah, I figured that out. Okay, yeah. Yeah. This is the love I get from the Obamas on the regular. You should be so lucky. Yeah, I feel very blessed. For me, it was, again, timing. It was the right auspices. It was, you know, getting to work with I.O., having the opportunity to work with Tommy. Obviously, very experienced and really good director. And it's just somehow worked out. I'd been playing around with the idea for a couple years and trying to work on a couple different things and developing things and just the time never really presented itself to have that much unencumbered time to carve out to do it. But this had all the reasons to say yes for me. And you guys are both theater nerds, deep down. You in particular, Don, you came out of theater. That was your first love. Can you talk a bit about that journey? Yeah, I mean, I was doing plays and I.O. was to an elementary school and, you know, all throughout high school. And then I graduated and went to California Institute of the Arts and studied theater there and did that, you know, for four years and did a zillion plays there. And then when I graduated, I did regional theater at the Guthrie and at Goodman, the public and Mixed Blood and the Twin Cities. And I've just was something I always kept up. And yeah, 25 years ago, as you mentioned, I did Top Dog, Under Dog. When this play opened, Proof actually opened on Broadway and Bridget, my wife, was telling me about it. So it's been something that that was the last time I've been on stage. But I always knew it was in the offing somewhere and just everything had to come together and it kind of did. I mean, it's funny because I met Kara on the set of I Love Boosters, which comes out next month. And she didn't know who she was talking to because I have all these prosthetics on for this thing. And I said, oh, I'm Don Tchul. She's like, what? Yeah. But I was talking about, oh, I've got this play reading coming up. I've got this reading offer to do proof and I owe a debris is going to be doing it. I'm really excited about it. And it's weird how things come together. And I don't know if I'm going to do it, but I'm going to do the reading and the timing and we're just talking about all this kismet stuff and her phone dings. Really? And she looks at me in terms of phone to me and it said, you have an offer to read proof. Oh my God. Well, I guess we're supposed to do this. Yeah. Steven Spielberg told me that who gets cast is who's supposed to be cast, which is why he never worries about whether somebody can do it or not. Because it's like it happens when it happens. The right person does it at the right time because scheduling and getting this stuff right is a big part of who does what when in this business. 100%. Yeah. Yeah. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance, a company committed to helping people move forward and live fully. When I bought my first home, I played it very safe. On paper, it made sense. Mish, what is something you wish you knew when you were buying your first home? Yeah. I mean, I don't want to be repetitive, but hearing you talk, it's the same thing. I think over the course of our lives before going into the White House, we bought our first condominium and played it conservative and we bought our first home. Now my husband wouldn't say that we were being conservative, but it is true that there's, I think there's a benefit to being somewhat conservative because you don't want to grow up as our dad said, house poor. I think we worry a lot about that because that was sort of the theory of working class folks. But the truth is, is that you want to get the, I wish I had known that getting the most for your dollar was actually the better strategy. Yeah. Yeah. So what advice would you give young people today as they approach bigger and bigger life choices like purchasing their first home? Well, I would say talk to people who've been in your shoes. I think our parents were never homeowners, right? So we didn't really have them as a guide. So I would say to young people, if you don't come from a home owning background, ask questions. If you're buying a home, you're going to need a bank. You should sit down with someone who has an expertise to help walk you through the process and help you think about how much you should be investing, how much you should be saving so that you're not going in blind. Yeah. So I would say while it feels stressful, you'll be very happy with the result. How do you think our childhood prepared us for making such big decisions such as home ownership? I think with kids, you let them start practicing with the small decisions, right? You can't raise kids to not ever make decisions and think they'll be ready for the big decisions. So what our mom and dad, I think, did a good job with is that they gave us responsibility early on and let us choose, setting your own alarm clock and getting yourself up, making the decision about what you were going to wear every day, deciding how you were going to pace how to do your homework and what you valued. I think our parents forced us to make small decisions first so that we grew into the bigger decisions. Oh, exactly. Fortunately, there are resources available for all those first time home buyers out there right now. Progressive is offering real support as a first time home buyer navigates what can feel like a pretty formidable process. For example, Progressive's Uppayment Program is part of their Open the House initiative, a multi-year commitment to making home ownership a reality for more people. That's because Progressive believes that strengthening communities starts with opening doors and helping more people feel prepared to take that step. As part of that effort, Progressive is expanding their Uppayment Program in 2026, offering down payment assistance of up to $13,500 each to at least 200 eligible first time home buyers. And since 2024, Progressive has committed more than $16 million toward making home ownership feel more achievable. Learn more about the Uppayment Program and Progressive's commitment to first time home buyers at progressive.com slash open the house where home buyers can discover more about housing challenges and access resources and support to empower them in their housing journey. I mean, we almost didn't know if you were working up to what, two days before you came to rehearsal? Yeah. What were you working on? I was finishing the last season of Bayer. And both Eben and I previously had been cleared to do the shows that Eben's now in dog day. And I got cleared to do this. And then the just again schedules and a lot of math. That's like a pretty big cast. So it ended up pushing our filming. And yeah, I filmed like up till two days before and I got to rap and then I had to wait till the end of that day. So I got one day to pack and go back home and dump all my stuff and then get all my winter things and then I came out here and then I sort of saw her. So I was like, hello. And theater, you know, look, I love theater. I love all stage plays, musicals, you name it. There's just something about being in community with people and watching. It's powerful. People right there doing their thing. And I'm kind of biased. I do think that actors who have had theater experience. And it seems like the lines are a lot less blurred now. I mean, before it's like, if you did TV and film, that's what you did. The people did theater. They did the theater stuff. And now I don't know if it's me, but it just feels like everybody's doing a little bit of everything. George Clooney just did Broadway, Taraji's up there now. I mean, we could go on and on. Can you guys talk about that trend? How does that feel for you guys in your business? I'm more curious from your end. Because you're old. You've been around. You're so old. You've basically been acting since the dawn of time. Dawn of time. And so I guess for you. When Jesus wore sandals. I feel like my career has come into permission for you to roll, obviously. You were the original Joseph in the Tentacolor Dream Goat. The original Joseph. But I think because my career has kind of happened to blown up in this way after COVID, I think also that is a huge part of it where I'm like, well, everything is soup. Everything has sort of been a bit strange. And we're kind of figuring our way back to normal. You built your career in strange. In many ways. In so many ways. I have come out of the strange. I've always been an early adopter and about whatever. I was doing a show on Showtime very early. And I was like, oh, what's the streaming thing about? Let's try that. And I've just always been, I go where the material is. And so many writers flocked to TV because they were unable to do what they wanted to do in film. Because films started becoming just about tentpole stuff and up and a bunch of them. And those kinds of... Get it in the mist. Mention your marmarole ocean. It's all good. It's fine. It doesn't seem fine. You can do it now. Actually, they had that in the intro. Oh, you took it out. Okay. So that was like, why didn't we talk about any of this? Because all of her stuff was so heady and lofty and incredible. And I was like, we're going to talk about me in a suit. But... I can't. No, what do you... Right, that's really... I cannot with that. But no, no, no hate on the Marvel stuff. Thank you. Pays to the Bill allows you to do the theater stuff. Yeah. You know? Pays for the barn. That's like my dad's like... Not just a play, man. I wish you didn't know so much about me, Michelle. You're calling your friends. Moving on to quote Methuselah. Right. No, look, I think that theater is never left my blood. It's never not been something I've wanted to get back to at some time, in some way. And I think, you know, another thing that's playing on this is, unfortunately, the economics, you know, of what it takes to mount a production. Yeah. And I feel, you know, kind of conflicted sometimes about the people that we need to put in these plays to actually get the budgets for the play. Yeah. And that... Entry Coupe and... All of that. And there's jobbing actors that have been out here, you know, doing it for a long time that are like kind of getting squeezed out often when these kinds of casting opportunities happen. So it cuts both ways for me a little bit because I love the opportunity and want to come here and do it. And I really, a big part of also wanting to do this play was really to... It's Catherine's play. It's Ayo's play. And I wanted to support her and support that journey. And, you know, I'm the smallest part in it, but I really wanted to come and like... Well, don't tell people that. Pop the kids up. He's in it a lot, y'all. I mean, a lot. They're just in it a lot more. But... But I do think that, you know, I understand that, Rob, but I think that the way audiences think, I mean, we're trying to get people off their phones and into the theater. Absolutely. And every time it happens also, I don't know. Maybe that's my own sort of naivete or whatever. But like when it happens, when you experience it, everybody's like so grateful for it. Absolutely. Wow. And even to the effect of like the type of work that's made, like often the things that come out of or pierced through cultural conversation are often so strange or feature cast where you don't really know that many people. Maybe you saw one person whose name you knew, but everybody else you don't know. You know, there's the weird things, the strange things, but then that doesn't end up being the takeaway from like a structural industry standpoint. Like the takeaway isn't like, oh, let's do more shows with unknown cast. It's like we really like cooking stuff in Chicago. Yeah, it's all in the rear view mirror, right? And so I don't know. But I think you guys lending your talents to theater is helping because it's going to put people in seats. It's going to, you know, reinvigorate things. I hope so, yeah. You know, at this point, I don't care why people come to the theater. I just want them to come. And if they come because it's like, oh, I know Don and I.O. I get to see them up close. You guys don't have the schedules and the time to do theater always. So if you can get somebody hooked, then you guys go off. I mean, I like the way some productions are doing it. A production gets established with a star and then you move somebody else in it. And then people now know that this play on its own without the star power is something that we want to see. We want our kids to be in those seats. We want, you know, our communities to be back to that live kind of. So that's true. I think it's a. It's an important hook. I don't, you know, I don't think this is a forever hook. I think that the talent on Broadway is unbelievable. Some of the best talent in the business is right here in the city on these streets. I mean, what it takes to show up every day. And I want to talk about that for a bit. Like how you I want our audience to understand what does it take to prepare? I mean, how did you guys approach this this play, your roles? You know, I'm going to tease Don again. I mean, when I saw you, I went with Barack Barack and I had a date night's proof. And we were like, hey, Don got a dad. But it's like, what is that? It's like the last time I saw you, you were cut up. I thought I am. What you are. And I know you are. That's the thing because I swear to God. I was like, I expected when I saw you back. The camera. No, you didn't. My point was when I saw you backstage, I was almost like, oh, great. OK, it's still in there. I was I was sitting there thinking so many. He right gain all that. Well, acting acting. So you weren't wearing anything. You just turned into a dad. But I mean, that's something out and. Don't push it. You have a dad. What's it? The costume. It's true. But anyway, we digress. I don't know. I don't think this is a digression. I think we've now leaned into the theme of this podcast, which is really what it's about. Don. That's why we have you in the center. You're in the hot seat. You're in the hot seat. No doubt. But talk about your preparation. I mean, I like physically, I started doing vocal training like for the year before because also I found myself losing my voice during award season. Because you were accepting so many speeches. Just because I don't know how to stop talking. And I and I was like, I know that I want to do a play. And then I knew that it was going to be this play. And so I really wanted to get ready. And that required just a lot of learning about my instrument. Things that also I think I was in practice with, but not. Consciously when I was doing stand up on the regular. And then since doing a lot more TV and film, it's just. I must say, you don't have to use. I don't have to reach the back of the room when I'm mic'd. You know, like so that was like definitely a part of it. And I think when we knew that it was going to happen, we would talk about the script and sort of read it. I don't know when you like had started actively memorizing. But I had tried to get it into my bones as much as possible. And then when I knew I wanted to start earlier and then Baron did have. So I would just read it on set if I didn't have like a crazy amount of lines. And I remember Lionel and Wilp Holter. I would like pull them a lot because Evan also was working on his own stuff for dog day. So we would kind of be in little corners, just like reading and then picking up our sides and being like, do we know her actual job? And yeah. And there's things where it's like Catherine has these long passages of things where that is like memorized or things that are. So that was the first stuff that I tried to tackle the stuff where I'm like, well, this is language that's like in her bones. So it should be the first stuff that's in mine. And then when you say it was memorized, are there parts of the play that are more like when she recites something that she got it from memory? But I'm Catherine. Yes, that's right. So weird. It's like, what do you mean from memory? But it's her memory. Yeah, her. It's her memory. So I was like, well, that has to be something that's right. And then that maybe you can go like that every what are things that I know. Sorry, my long one. No, no, no. I mean, it's it's powerful. Because I'm thinking about these conversations with young people listening and young people that are interested in this kind of stuff, because you guys all talk about we all have our theater experience when we were young. I mean, I was in the opera redder workshop. I mean, there's there's always, you know, I had an on that ran the community theater. I mean, we all have that piece of a wall. I used to like improv when I was a little kid. Yeah, yeah, I did. And, you know, it's like theater training prepares you for a lot more than acting. I mean, I think it plays a role in my comfort level. Public speaking, public speaking, in the way interact with people. You know, just adapt. It's storytelling. I mean, what you get, adapt that or what you hopefully, you know, the one of the biggest muscles you're flexing is just being a storyteller. And there's not any business that you can even name that doesn't have as one of its components. What's the story that I'm talking about this job? What's the story about this business? What's the story that this industry has? So it is applicable to so many different so many different things. And it teaches you how to play well with others. And it teaches you, you know, that you're not the center of the universe and you need to be, you know, malleable and there's give and take. And the strongest thing that you can be, I think, is a as a performer is a listener. And, you know, be able to to reflect back what you hear and be in conversation. And I think that's all of those skills are very important to just manage life. Yeah, I think also when I first, like, realized that maybe this is something that I wanted to do a big fear that I had because both of my parents are not in the industry. And we similarly, it's like I have a godmom who went to the first black AME church and Christmas program and she was in church. An opera singer very much was writing church plays, you know, that sort of thing. But that was pretty much our purview of the whole thing. It didn't go much further than that. I don't even think I realized writing was a job you could have. I thought that there were actors and directors like I didn't. I didn't realize that people wrote the script. Things you're saying. They were different from the people who said them and the guy, you know, and like Spike Lee. I didn't really know that. And I think I sometimes can forget because I'm like I get sick of the sound of my own voice that it can be helpful to hear those more granular parts of things and the more like practical tactical parts of things. And that is what I think I was able to latch on to when I was also like convincing my parents that I would be OK and that I could survive that. Actually, there's unions. And unions have health insurance. Because that's what parents would go. Are you going to get health insurance? Yeah. Yeah. I don't think you're going back here. I didn't plan for you to figure it out. They would not. But you're. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. A company committed to helping people move forward and live fully. The older we get, the more we know ourselves, right? The easier it is to make big decisions and all of that. It's always been interesting to me that life requires us to make huge, impactful choices at a very young age. Where to live, what to study. And of course, how or even whether to buy a home. Progressive is a company founded on the belief that insurance should do more. And they understand there are many hurdles first time home buyers are facing these days. That's why I appreciate what Progressive is doing through their Open the House initiative. It's all about helping more people take that first step toward home ownership by giving them the knowledge, tools and financial support to make it feel more possible. Since 2024, Progressive has committed more than $16 million toward making the dream of home ownership a reality. This includes a three and a half million dollar investment this year towards the up payment program, Progressive's down payment assistance program aimed at first time home buyers. Want to learn more about the up payment program and Progressive's commitment to first time home buyers? 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I went back in them, a bunch of my teachers came and said, hey, and everybody was acting so weird. But they were all like, this is crazy. Yeah, this is really weird. I'm like, we never saw this before. Not really. We thought you were going to live in the island. Well, I was a freak. But I guess I was surrounded by other like all my friends. We were just all weirdos. Like and my friend, Shlee came actually and the we just were remembering all these like insane things. But we were supporting each other in that. And I felt like our parents were really supportive of that. Because, you know, we were well behaved and we made sure the grades were right. And so then, yeah, if you want to like learn how to play oboe or do improper, Shlee is really obsessed with Michael Jackson at the time. And so we she was like, OK, if you want to make videos where she's Michael Jackson using like your dad's camp quarter and you're figuring out how to edit or whatever, like fine. And so, yeah, when I told my parents that I didn't want to study education anymore and that I wanted to pursue this, I remember I took them to an IHOP and I was like, I was like, this is going to be the worst one in my life. Have some more syrup. Short stack on me, you know. And my dad was like, please, keep them coming. Keep them coming. And my dad looked at me and he said, honey, you know, we were there when we raised you, right? We saw them. We've seen you. But I was like, right, like those are the people who was I. I wasn't taking the Fung Wah bus unsupervised at 10. And my mom was taking me because she knew I had this passion. And they were taking me to see the Urban Nutcracker and to see Wicked when it came to Boston on tour. And, you know, my dad was always showing me amazing movies. And I found out actually when I graduated, which is like funny thinking about the show and the legacies that we know and we don't know. My dad wanted to study film. He went to Emerson and then his dad found out because this was like analog days. So, you know, he basically was like, yeah, everything's fine in America. And then a cousin called my grandfather and was like, he's not studying to be a lawyer. He's going to film school. And my grandfather came down and was like, cool, you can graduate. Yeah. And then you have to like apply to law school after because your parents are immigrants. Yes, both of them. Yes, both of them. My mom's from Barbados and my dad is from Nigeria. Yeah. So they were definitely don't don't play. No, we sent you here to be a doctor. Responsibility also. They have siblings and they, you know, they had things to do and people to help and secure things for. And and I think, yeah, my it was a cool thing though. I was like, oh, my dad isn't continuing that cycle. And he wants me to do well and, you know, make sure that everything is OK. But he also knows that like there's no point in, I don't know, this life if if you don't follow your passions. Yeah. You know, my father actually I've said this before. He was the my dad worked as a stationery farm and blue collar worker, but my dad was a really gifted artist. I mean, he sculpted, painted, got a scholarship to the Art Institute. We grew up in Chicago, but he didn't pursue those dreams because, you know, what are you going to raise a family? He had a, you know, so it's to understand that there was a generation of parents and grandparents who couldn't do this. No, it wasn't even. It was there in their bones. But there are minds. I was going to say my mom was also a frustrated artist. I think, you know, and it was I had a very luckily, a very similar, you know, sort of perspective from my parents, who, you know, my parents drove me to Cal Arts and drove me home. And there was never any question about what I wanted to do. They were like, Oh, are you going to pursue music or are you going to pursue acting? Because those are the two things that you've been passionate about and really want to do. Similarly, you know, you got to do your schoolwork and get your grades and do all that stuff. But they were like, there was no question I was going to college. That wasn't. Yeah. But they were just like, you can pursue anything you want in college. You're going to college. Yeah. But whatever you study, just really study it and be serious about it. And I can remember, you know, when I first started and it was hard and struggling and would be between jobs and calling my mom and saying, I don't know if I made the right choice. And she said, you've been talking about doing this since you were 10 years old. Don't don't stop now. See, that's just a beautiful thing, you know, to have parents who are rooting you on when it's time to tough. We have we have kids that are going to do non-traditional things. You know, I have a kid that's interested in the business and good writer. There is many a call where, you know, because the business is crazy. And the thing that I and there are times when she wonders whether in these times when there's so much going on, should she be writing? You know, and the thing I tell her is like, there are going to be a lot of people who don't make it through these tough periods. They just they're just not situated. And especially when it comes to black voices, black writers, black directors, those of you who can stick in there and be there, we need them. We need you. We're going to need storytellers and people with different perspectives, you know. So I mean, probably your parents were ahead of the curve, both of you guys in thinking that through and understanding the power of having real clear, decent people with good minds of color in this business. And thank God they did. I think that's also why it's important that the proof has been reimagined for a black family. First of all, so many of us are, you know, there's some people out there who don't want to believe that they're black families that are professors and clinical psychiatrists and who are artists and, you know, who are geniuses. And I think it's powerful to have this family not talk about the truth of their reality, but just living in it. You know, it's like we exist in so many different forms with so many different other challenges other than poverty or crime or whatever. Exactly. Can you guys talk a bit about that? You know, going back to the David Auburn of it all and, you know, the early conversations that you had with Tommy about it, there was there's a clear understanding that these themes, these a lot of these themes are universal, but they do look different for different people. And, you know, what does legacy mean and what we get to leave behind? And, you know, often it does. It is about something financial and in this play, it does center around the house. And, you know, who has ownership of that? Who has ownership of dad's work? You know, what do we do with dad's work? What does it mean, you know, to to to honor that or to exploit it? Or, you know, so I think that a lot of these themes work. But when we were talking about things like mental health, something that has traditionally not so much anymore. But I think, you know, has for a long time been like, we just don't talk about that. You know, that's just Uncle Ben. Especially in the black community. He just has that. They're not wrong with you, boy. Yeah, you're fine. I know he's in the basement. Yeah, that's fine. You know, don't be there. He's a little funny. It's fine. He does something weird before. The TV tray and shut the door. He's fine. And don't look at me. Not don't look Uncle Ben in the eye. I don't have an uncle Ben just for the record. But the uncle Ben I'm imagining is bananas. But yeah, so I think that for for a black family, like I said, we know the things that we brought up to David as far as we have to use, we have to figure out the word that we're using when the police come because this Catherine may not get to be abusive to the police. So maybe us have another scene in the play. Yeah. Yeah. So it's like, what are the word choices? What happened? Yeah, what did she actually do? What actually happened? Yeah. And what's also happening underneath it? Right. What's happening is these two sisters are missing each other. So how do we make, you know, maintain that? Yeah. While also still allowing the play to be what it is. And we're not detouring off into a play about that. That's right. But we also can't act like that's not something. Yeah. That also means something in Chicago. Yeah. In the 90s. Absolutely. Like, so yeah, that's been cool. I think to what you were saying also about this story and and the now it's so funny, it's like I didn't really consciously think about it until we started doing press. And I was thinking about that and what and I'm like, what is that? That being the race aspect? I guess. And I was like, oh, it's because I'm a black woman all the time. I'm not thinking about why this is timely. I'm I'm timely. I'm timeless. We are timeless. Our we exist. We've always existed. We we and we will continue to exist and persist. And so it's like, I don't know. I'm I'm thinking about it always and everything I do. And also at the same time, I'm not thinking about living because because I have to live my life because it's like, yeah, we are absolutely all political bodies. Like, right, sure. At the same time, I've still, you know, I'm a human being and David, I in his writing of this, I mean, it's like one of my favorite things. And I think it's really hard to do as a writer and he does so brilliantly. Every character is right and every character is wrong in the same. Yeah. What was she trying to get? This is the beauty of theater. I mean, yeah, you can do this in a movie, you know, but there is just something different about real people on stage in the audience. Which is can you talk about that? Because that's one thing we've never had. Oh, yeah. Experiences like sitting there because I sometimes it's very noisy in a good way because people are like murmuring. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, no, no, no. But that is exactly what was going on. And what I found, I think I said I was saying this to you guys is that there was just a lot of guttural. Oh, I mean, people were feeling it because I think all, you know, there's so many things and so many people who were seeing themselves or somebody they knew at some level, you know, that I don't it didn't it was it felt like it was unexpected to the audience to get some of this stuff. And it's I'm making sure you as well. Not that it's not funny, but like they'll be like, hey, why didn't you warn me about like X specific thing? Like, like my bad. Why didn't you tell me it was two sisters? And I'm like, my fault. Right. You know, yeah, to that like that micro or as macro as like you're saying, mental health or, you know, an ailing parent or a lot of this come back. People going, wow, I just went through this or I have to deal with this. And if that had been an all black audience, they would have been talking. Oh, the whole time. But like, I don't. Who do you think you are? We definitely had some of that. I think at one point there's a there's a scene where I'm taking things out of a backpack and yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, this is what I should assert. It's also like we have to sometimes moments will happen and it's like I just find myself like looking or I'm just like, I just need eyes right now. I just need eyes to stay here and then I can go back and great. And a woman I just heard go, Oh, orange. And we're just like, we're here, we're here, we're here. We're still in this moment. We're here. You're Catherine. I'm here. I'm Catherine. You're how I'm Catherine. I'm Catherine. You're how you're here. Ray. And I'm like, OK, what does this mean also for the rest of the show? It's quite early on. I don't know. Orange appears. And so like what's what is this going to do? You just don't know. Somebody told me that they were sitting in front of two black behind two black women. And when Carrie came on for her second scene, they were like, oh, here she go. Oh, here she go. That's what I love us. I love us. And the beauty of this reimagined revival is that it's going to bring in new audiences. Yes. And I think that, you know, I mean, that brings life into it. It's a whole nother generation. It's a whole nother community of people who are going to be introduced to David Auburn and his writing and the complexities of a script and these sets of characters. And that's what you're you're feeling. And we have a lot of programs that we're supporting and fantastic that the play is supporting to do just that, to broaden access, to get students in at a price point that's not prohibitive, because so much of it is prohibitive when you talk about these plays, they're so out of reach for some of the friends that I have like that I met in college and were born and raised in New York and had never seen a Broadway show because there just wasn't access. They can't afford it. And they didn't go to the right school, be it public or private, that had a program that would take them for a day. You know, it's it's like kind of mind boggling. So yeah, we just both, I think, really had the intention and we're matched in that with our producers and to try to make accessibility a real thing. How do you guys specifically influence that decision? Skin in the game. Yeah, yeah, we're giving up. We're giving money back toward it so that we can support it and having people match it and going out and fundraising around it. And we were I mean, I was like in a way that I think was newer for me. Maybe you're a little more at risk, but I was like, I'm thinking of the people I know have money and I'm and I'm figuring out how to write an email. I like do a call and and I think also just meeting with our sincerity, like that this is something that we really want because I think we've both been many beneficiaries of access. And so some of those programs look like bio nights that are going to happen. Reaching out to different like schools and nonprofits. And the New York public school system. Yes, department of education. You hear that, y'all? So, you know, we're trying. I'm still pursuing some organizations for people who are just a barrier, just a price point, a barrier, not just students, but just anyone. Anyone, anyone. We are big dog lovers here at IMO. 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Apply in the wallet app on your iPhone today. Subject to credit approval, variable APRs for Apple Card range from 17.49% to 27.74% based on credit worthiness. Rates as of January 1st, 2026. Existing customers can view their variable APR in the wallet app or at card.apple.com. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank, USA, Salt Lake City branch. Terms and more at applecard.com. The community of actors that are supporting each other. I mean, one thing I love hearing from you and Bridget Don is in your early days, that community of young actors, many of whom are still your friends, you know, who you all, some have made it, some haven't. And what that meant to you and I.O. I'm curious about whether that a similar community exists for you. You want to talk a little bit about that? I think we were very lucky. You know, Bridget and I bumped into each other a lot in the early days. We were all trying to get work in LA and I graduated when I graduated from Cal Arts. I graduated with some, you know, some guys who are my similar types. And we kind of all lived within a block or two of each other. All the roommates, you know, three, some of them, three at a place, two in a place. But we all kind of lived around each other. And when we would have auditions, we would just everybody would go. Yeah. I'd be like, Bruce, I got an audition, Jeff, I got an audition. And we would bum rush the audition together and I'd go in and then I'd, you know, be coming out and go, wait, can you see my friend? And they're like, what? See him and then he'd go in and go, hey, one more of us. Can you see one more? And they would say to us, like, you know, if he gets the job, you don't get the job. I was like, yeah, but we get to check. Yeah, we're trying to keep this money in here. So if I got to borrow from him, he's got to borrow from me. I got to pull this bread. So one of us has to get it. Yeah. So we kind of had that mentality and we were very fortunate to have that because it was not that way for most other people out there. It was doggy, dog, it was cutthroat. But something about having that kind of comfort also made it that when I think we walked in the room, we weren't like the sweaty desperate have to get this thing, which is so awkward for a lot of, you know, you can that feels uncomfortable. You want to be around somebody that you're like, I want to be around this person. So we were able to sort of that community kind of help each other feel that. And then it just kind of spread. All of us were out there trying to do the same thing. And so many of us know each other and knew each other from that time. And, you know, one of my closest friends from that time, his daughter is my goddaughter. And they live, she lives with my kids. They all live together still, knowing they're 30s. And so it's it was just something that's that's amazing. I'm still very close with those guys. And I do think it was a rare and unfortunate thing. And I feel very lucky that that we had it. That doesn't sound like the business we hear talk about. It is not. It is not. And now anymore, I mean, when people ask you, I'm sure when people ask me like, I want to act. What can I do? I'm like, I when I started, you went in a room and talk to human beings. And I mean, when I started, you went in the room and talk to human beings. And then like in the middle of that story, it changed. So what is it now? So these are a camera in the corner and you're doing self tapes. Yeah. Sometimes you don't get the whole script or you get there. Supposed to be all these rules that changed around it. Like you couldn't get six pages the night before to have to memorize and come in. That kind of I don't think anyone's obeying that stuff. No, it isn't. They're still doing it. So you're meant to have like a camera set up and a good mic and a backdrop. And a backdrop in a quiet place where you can shoot it and you're expected to without benefit of notes, without benefit of any insight from anyone who's created this. So you're directing yourself or your friends are directing you. You're reading with whoever's available. You are maybe like if you're not borrowing space from a friend, they're they popped up in LA. I don't know if they still exist, but it's psychotic rooms that you would pay for. Yeah. So it's like you're paying to audition for the right to not get a gig. You know, it's it's a lot. Which is making it a more exclusive experience. So the business is changing every day. And now this insane merger that might happen. It's like there's going to be fewer and fewer places to work. Yeah. We don't we don't I think we don't know. So when people ask me what they can do. Yeah. To become an actor, I say do anything else. And and if that's going to discourage you, then maybe you shouldn't do it. Yeah. Because it's going to be a slog unless you get super, super lucky or just undeniable. So I say work. Yeah, just work. Read plays right, right, right. You know, do you don't have to just work when you get a job. You can be working on being a better actor, a better writer on your own all the time. You have an iPhone, you can make a movie. You can, you know, and now there's no barrier to upload it. You know, my friends or my cohort, I guess, that I think about a lot of us did come up generating our own material when I think about Rachel Senate, when I think about Quinto and like, you know, that we. Issa Rae. Oh, yeah. And we were and I mean, we were following them and Donald people, you know, it's like, OK, right. You make sketches and you post them online or you tweet or, you know, you do funny Instagram posts to make videos like you do these things at the same time, though, those are also the people with like Rachel and I would ride the train and we would swap sets and give each other notes on our sets, you know, and I would go to Quinta and she'd be like, cool, I went to this, you know, I did sets here, here and here. Zach went here, here and here. These rooms are good for this. These rooms are good for that. Like we were doing work in the real world as well as online. And I think exchanging information with each other as well. Not wanting to gatekeep from each other because to what you're saying also, like I really was resonating with that. Like all the people that I was friends with and that I connected with and I still feel connected to, I don't think ever felt like that threat of like, I have to be the only one in the room. You know, like I really do believe and there's more friends that I just will not name drop, but I love her. But where it's like we all knew that there was space for each other, especially amongst like black women. I remember like having a conversation and then I can then name drop it like with Zue and a job when she was writing and I was still assisting and she was like, yeah, well, that's like obviously like a trick that they want to play on us to to cut each other out. There's space for all of us. And if there isn't, then we make space for each other. There you go. And I felt like I was like such a little baby writer and I was like, thank God, you know, there's people like that good. And Janelle James is at that same job and it was the same thing. She was like, yeah, they're not going to. No way. You think they're going to get us? No. No, we stay in it. And that is, I think, a real skill that endurance, that, you know, fortitude, that you have to learn and that's pretty invaluable. I think just as much as talent, sometimes even more. I'm sure you can think of people I can't who are, I go, this was the most talented person that I ever knew. This person is great. Can't bust a great, you know? And when the going gets tough, they back out, which is not to say that that isn't, you know, valid and that your feelings can get hurt. They can be hard and long and confusing. And you can, I mean, it's in careers are their highs and lows. There's highs and lows and it's a weird thing also when it's like your passion, the, and especially if it's connected to creativity, but not just that. But if when your passion becomes your vocation, when it becomes capital, you know, it's dangerous, you can trip your job. It's really trippy. And so being able to find ways to navigate that, withstand that, have people that you can talk to, even, I mean, we had a day where I was just like, help. Do you know that? So you were like, yeah, that's it. That's the job. I'm just glad. I was like, OK, that's serious. Going to be something else. Hey, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I guess I did because I'm here. Well, having you to the dynamic duo in this play is it's really the magic. But the entire cast is magic. And we are just grateful that you guys made the decision to, you know, dip your toe back into the theater lane because it absolutely matters for all of the reasons that we talked about. Before we close, what's next is the question. What's next for you? Question. I owe you or you may have your what next. So July. What is the plane? Yeah, next is May. July 19. Yeah. OK. And then there are things. There are things that are supposed to happen afterwards. And, you know, do you say that because it's like it could happen? It might not. Or I know that because some could happen. Some might not. Some are definitely happening, but I don't know that I want to happen with them. So, you know, yeah, yeah. It's like, I don't. It's it's it's real. It's real. You know, the one thing you've also earned the right. Well, look, I think anyone at any time can say what they want to do with their time and what is valuable for them to do with their time, because it's the one thing. I don't care how much they pay you. You can't buy. You can't get it back. Yeah. And you don't want to be in a situation where you look back and go, wow, I just wasted eight months of my time or six months of my time. You know, especially when I'm a little half dead. Yeah, you're old. Yeah, I'm out of here. You know, yeah, you gotta pick and choose wisely. You don't want to mess that up. I forgot. Yeah, you forgot. I forgot. I'm sorry. Well, no, he's such a good actor. I know he was young. Right. Yeah. I can't look at him. Show the guns again. You know, there's a lot of fun. Okay, no, no, no. There you go. But yeah, that's that's that's there's there's definitely and surprisingly, more than there have ever been for me, things lined up for years that if I wanted to actually push go on that I know I would be booked for a long, long time. So I'm trying to be strategic and mindful and thoughtful about how I really want to want to do this because then there's life. That's what I'm saying. We are predisposed as actors, you know, to have that engine of like, I got to eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat. It's never going to be here. I'm unemployed again. Well, if I don't take this job, there's never going to be another job. You know, it's easy to get in that, you know, hamster wheel mindset, even though we've done it for so long and you feel like that's I can't logically support that that's true, but it could be. Yeah, you know, are they going to find out? Yeah, they're going to realize that. I was going to the whole time. You're actually a bum. Yeah, you never get another job. So. All the Hollywood critics said, she's a bum. He's a bum. He's been snowing us for years. Thousands of them. He's old, I tell you. He's old. So old. Older than the sun that cheated. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tell me honestly, are you wet? I'm so sad. My friend. So yeah, we'll see. We'll see. One of the six jobs that's coming up or two, I'll probably do. Yeah, but I want to talk about them right now. OK, all right. We'll have you back. OK, yeah, we'll talk about them. Yeah, what about you? What about me? I am I am excited to finish this play. And then I also have a well, I'm the opposite, I guess. I have some time free for the first time on the acting side in a really long time because Bear, as Jamie Lee Gehr says, announced. It's very ending. And that's really cool and scary and exciting. And yeah, and then I'm writing again and I'm working on a few things. Some have been announced, some have not, but I'm not going to do it. I won't announce anything. Don't. I won't. You're in secret keeping mode. Don't. I won't. I won't. Breaking news on IMO. No, won't do it. But yeah, I'm excited about that and excited to kind of make I just turned 30. And now you're old. Now I'm kicked me out of Young Hollywood. So, so gross. I'm in Hollywood now. But it's it's an interesting thing like time. I think the just past few years have I really and like friends who are older than me and not even by that much, who literally I would be like 28 and they would be like 31, they'd be like, be careful, you know, be careful about your time, be careful about your energy. And I'd be like, I don't believe you. Yeah. And then it's like, oh my God, there's my body. And it's and it's tired and I do need to rest. And I also do need to like recuperate in order to generate. Like it maybe the reserve was a lot deeper because it was just coming from a place of all this expression that had him felt like I was able to do for so long. And this youth. I mean, oh my God. It's like you just young. Energy of it. I mean, it's like now when I stand up, I have to stretch like my dog, Sonny. OK, because you just can't get in. What do we do if I also have to stretch? That means you need to take a break. Great. OK. So then maybe I do that. And maybe some supplements. Well, yeah, for sure. Yeah, I need you to leave me more stretches. Yes, yes. Oh, stretch. Limber. Yes, he's leaving. That's my biggest thing. Yeah, and you're a big stretcher. You like morning and night, that type of vibe. Or do you need to do more of it? But I do it like 90 minutes session once a week. That's amazing. OK, great. So that's good. That's something for me to log and maybe not do for a minute. You don't have to do it for 90 minutes. No, but this has been making me need to be more physical in a way that's really great. Yeah, like the eight shows a week thing. It's like you really can't take it for granted. And you can. It's a workout. Yeah. I mean, that's like a whole other podcast. I'm secretly very woo-woo. And the things that we're talking just about like life and the things that I've learned in the past few years, I've become really interested in our bodies as like. Yeah, as just like instruments and the things that we are maybe not as connected to in like Western society that like that there's I don't know that there's other civilizations have been in that is staying in the South. Better than my linear. Yeah. My father is a cancer survivor. And when he was sick, he got really into like Eastern medicine and and really genuinely, that's like he's the same. And now it's like we both are like, so like what's going on with your accuracy? And he is somebody who like I think that was definitely a jolt for him. And I had one image of him, you know, of my childhood. And now he's the one who's like going on jogs and doing his little peloton and he does yoga and all these amazing things. And I and I really am like, wow, you're a lighter, happier person than maybe who I grew up with partly because I think you're like in communication with your body in a way that you were not because. Because you just didn't do that. Yeah, I didn't do that. It wasn't a part of our education. A man, a black man, an African man, doing a down with you. Get out of my face with them. And don't talk about it. Did you lose something dead under that table? Can I help you find your key? Did you drop something? Because you were not. You didn't mean to be on the floor. Black people sometimes don't even like to be on the floor. Why would I get on the floor? Why would I do that? I didn't put these clothes on to get on the floor. That's exactly right. I actually really like the idea of I'll never forget moving to LA and being people where they're like, are you grounding? And I'm like, am I a 13 year old are you talking about? And they're like, no, take your shoes off and feel the earth. I'm like, I'm good. I'm on it. You might as well ask me to eat a bug. OK, you guys have a problem. I'm really. Well done. And that means the bug has to stay in now. You guys, I know that was wrong. He's like, I got to try. Don't worry. I'm so buggy. I'm so full of bugs. Oh my God. Well, anyway, you two, it's it's been a delight. I'm proud of you as always. Love you to death, loving you so completely. You this role is is you. Yeah, you got a little Catherine in you. I remember our first meeting. Yeah, we had a. We, you know, I'm sure I always was like, because we were like this young girl, she's got a got a thing. So we just reached out. It's like, girl, what's she up to? Nothing. And she came over to the vineyard. I'm sure you were wondering, OK, I'm here. And she sat down and she was so like, yeah. And Barack and I were like, yeah, we know that that that girl. Yes. Yeah, we know a lot that quirky, weird, genius, curiosity, fire, all of that, you know, fearlessness, all of that is is what's keeping you going and what is going to fuel you for many, many years to come so that you are old person like me and Don on the other side of this table. I don't know if I will ever be that fortunate to get this. No, you won't. You won't, especially if you bring it up like that. You ain't going to make it past July. You go. And it's like, I like that. I should have. You can't get it on the right. Right. Of course, that affects me. I'm not going to kick you off before I get mine. You. That was also like maybe the most exciting 36 hours of my life. That was also the day after I threw the first pitch. Oh, you had a lot going on. That's the first pitch and did we have lunch? Did we feed you? Did we get we had a good. It was really good. It was a really beautiful day. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's good to see you blowing up. You have earned every bit of it. I want to make sure that our audience goes to see proof and on Broadway until July 19. It is an amazing production and to all the young people who are going to benefit from this accessibility program, we want to hear from you. You know, young folks who get to see proof, want to hear about those conversations that people are having after the show. You can see here, you will go in. You know, if you go with the family, you're all going to be talking for a couple of weeks about it. So. One of my friends came with actually he came with his mom and dad the night that you guys were there and he was like, they were already talking about the play at intermission and then they realized that the Obama's were there. And he was like, and so now it's like connected forever. Yeah. Yeah. And you never know, we might be there in any moment in time. Let's go. We might drop by. Beautiful. Because I love Broadway. Yeah, exactly. So you never know. There's some really good shows on that. Of course. Coming with notes. Yeah, obviously. It's like for sure, for sure. But there are no notes. You guys have done it up. Thank you. Congratulations. Thanks for being here. Love you guys.