All right, there's a huge effort to silence certain voices in the United States and abroad right now. And a lot of voices that are being shunned and silenced and not platformed are American Jewish people that fundamentally oppose the genocidal government of Israel. And here to educate us and discuss this with us is Molly Crabapple. She is an Emmy Award-winning artist. That's pretty cool. And author of Here Where We Live is Our Country, the story of the Jewish Bund. Molly, thank you for joining me in studio. I'm so happy to be here. Okay. What is the Jewish Bund? The Jewish Bund was a revolutionary party that was born in Tsarist Russia in 1897 that was created because Tsarist Russia was the worst place in the world to be Jewish at that time. You had all of these laws that were based on telling you what to do, where you could live, that you couldn't go to university, that you would spend 25 years in the army. And at the same time, whenever a government targets a minority, as we know in America, that means that there's a whole lot of bigotry and racism and violence. So young Jewish socialists got together and they came to the realization that they were oppressed both as Jewish people living in this terrible autocratic empire, but also they were oppressed as workers. Because as we know, the bosses always oppressed the workers. And they created the Jewish labor Bund to fight for democratic socialism in Russia, but also to fight for their own liberation as Jews, to fight for their freedom, for their dignity, for their ability to have beautiful lives in the countries where they had lived for a thousand years. Very interesting. And then also just explained for my listeners in a very simple way, what is Zionism and what is a Zionist? Zionism is a political philosophy that made its debut onto the world stage the same year as the Bund in 1897 with the Zionist Congress led by Theodore Herzl. And basically it was a reaction to the fact that Europe was really racist. At that time, there had just been a trial of a French military officer called Alfred Dreyfus, who was banged up on the most obviously fake charges in the world and ritually humiliated, sent to Devil Island. There were like race riots by French people attacking Jews afterwards. And Theodore Herzl, who was a journalist, looked at this and he was like, wow, I don't think we're ever going to be able to assimilate here. I think these people are messed up in the head and they will always hate us. And so what he drew from this conclusion was we need to make a state somewhere else. And he didn't care where it was. Originally, he was fine with colonizing Uganda, but he also did not care how he got the state. And so he spent the next years trying to set up meetings and make deals with the most corrupt autocrats in the world in order to take over land eventually in Palestine. And he did not care what happened to the Palestinian Arabs, who were the vast majority of the population. In fact, in his diary, he even wrote about maybe you could spirit the penniless inhabitants across the border. Zionism was and is the political ideology of having a Jewish majority state in Palestine and from its very start, it was always based on ethnic cleansing. OK. And for me, growing up in middle America, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, I always just kind of bought into Israel as our biggest ally. They are this incredible democracy in the Middle East and they're surrounded by all these horrible terrorists. And I just kind of, you know, because I'm fighting these Christian nationalists locally. And I was like, oh, fair enough. OK, that's right. Well, fast forward to the most recent election we had. And I went to the DNC every day and there were all of these very peaceful protesters protesting the genocide. And then you just can't help but start really paying attention. And it's the carnage and the dehumanization. Once you open up your eyes to it, unfortunately, you can never unsee it. But then it just becomes additive. And you hear reports like from the BBC that the IDF soldiers have shot kids in the head. Yes. Yes. And in the heart. That's intentional. Targeting a child, that kind of moral rot. And then you hear about the IDF soldiers that raped Palestinian detainee. Yes. Yes. And there were no charges, no justice. And I don't care what political party people are in, but I think in democracy, we want to right wrongs. Exactly. Exactly. I feel like the support of the American government, the partnership of the American government with this Israel and Benjamin Netanyahu is all about committing more wrongs. And then for the people that want to point out like me and others and you who want to point out this is wrong, then we're called bigots for standing up against this insane inhumanity. And then I have friends like Jason Stanley, our mutual friend. He's a professor, listener, you know, I've had him on who messages me and says, please let me come on your podcast. We have to be able to criticize Israel to have a democracy. Exactly. Exactly. The crimes that Israel is doing right now and not just in Gaza, right? In the West Bank. Lebanon. Yet Lebanon where last night over 250 people murdered. I mean, I've been to Beirut four times. I have friends that are living under those bombs right now. This is an obscene moral stain on our collective humanity. The crimes that America and Israel are doing to Iran, they bombed a synagogue in Iran. You know, they have a small Jewish community there and they bombed a synagogue in Iran. We are destroying our democracy and we are creating a permanent moral stain on our souls as Americans by supporting the Israeli genocide. And I'm very sad to say that both parties are complicit in it. And it is revolting and it's also revolting to weaponize false charges of bigotry and antisemitism to shut people up when they are merely speaking against a horrific genocide. One of the people who tends to be the lead critiquer and the self appointed policing of any sort of criticism against child murder and rape is, of course, I'm talking about Jonathan Greenblatt of the ADL. And a few weeks ago, he said something that confused me. And I wanted to play this for you and I want you to explain to me what he's talking about, play the clip. In this place at Never Is Now and in the month and years to come, we will celebrate who we are and hold our heads high. We will not hide our identities. We will not seek forgiveness for our faith. We will never apologize for our love and support for the Jewish state of Israel, not now and not ever. And to those who say to those who hate us, we say to them, we see you. We hear you. And guess what? We are not going anywhere. We are not the Jews of trembling knees. We are here now and forever on the Israel high. OK, what does this mean? We are not the Jews of trembling knees. That really struck me. The critique like we you as a Jewish person cannot critique Israel, but he's critiquing the Jews of trembling knees. Are you a Jew of trembling? What is this? What does this mean as a person that, you know, grew up in flyover America that doesn't know that much about foreign policy? What does this mean? I think you just got a window into the psychological derangement that is at the heart of Zionism. One of the things that Zionism is built on is it's built on a hatred of the Jewish past and of the Jewish diaspora. There is this disgusting idea that has always been endemic in Zionism, that there were weak Jews in the past, that the Jews in the diaspora were weak, that they had trembling knees, right? That Holocaust victim. Yeah, like Holocaust victims. Are you serious? I am not kidding you. Holocaust victims were nicknamed soap in Israel after the war. So he's yeah, referring here to he's referring to Holocaust victims, to pogrom victims, to all of the Jewish victims of persecution throughout our history. And what Zionism is built on is built on a contempt for those people and an idea that a new Jewish person can be created at strong Israeli, strongly and bravely raping and murdering Arabs. Exactly. Exactly. And that you have two choices. You're either the big, strong war criminal or you're the weak Jew with the trembling knees that ends up in the gas chamber. Oh, my God, that's just really that to me seems very anti-Semitic. It's horrific. I mean, it really is. I mean, it's a human. I agree. OK, so let's shift gears slightly. The Jewish Americans have a history in the United States of really advocating for civil rights. And they have marched with black Americans and a lot of the Jewish people that are here, their parents or grandparents, escape from the Holocaust or just one story away from some connection to the Holocaust. And the Jewish we're a very small Jewish community in Oklahoma City, but the ones that I know were very, very big on universal human rights. And a tradition of that in the United States of America. And now I feel like we have this country, Israel, that is objectively committing war crimes, objectively genociding. It seems to be a feature, not a bug of the IDF to bomb hospitals, schools, shoot kids. They're doing it. Now the United States is doing it too in Iran, if we're not funding it on their behalf. Where do American Jews fit into this conversation, this trembling knees, the history of American Jews fighting strong for universal human rights? I feel like the greenblats of the United States are saying there is only one type of Jewish person. We all have to fit into this exact mold. Exactly. What they want to do is they want to appropriate all Jews, our identity, our history, our religion are extremely diverse communities that are from all around the world. And they want to say, Nope, all of you only exist in service to Israel. And if you criticize Israel, if you criticize the genocide, if you criticize little kids getting shot in the head in Gaza, you are self-hating. You are a traitor to your people. And it's disgusting. It is absolutely disgusting. And there's a huge split amongst American Jews and especially younger Jewish people, but not just younger Jewish people. Yesterday, I was speaking at a rally for Jewish Voices for Peace to tell New York to divest from Israeli bonds. And there were many older people as well. All sorts of people are saying, No. We are utterly opposed to this. We are opposed as Jewish people and we're opposed as humans to this disgusting genocide. I think that this messaging is so important. And I think all forms of bigotry are horrific. I feel like the ADL wants to prioritize forms of bigotry and conflate anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism. Our mutual friend, Professor Jason Stanley, feels like this is incredibly dangerous and will ultimately make more anti-Semitism by this conflation. Can you speak to this conflation as a Jewish American of, for my listener, really define the difference between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism and why it's so important that they are separated? Well, anti-Semitism is racism and bigotry against Jews for being Jews. And anti-Zionism is a rejection of the idea of a Jewish ethno-state. And me, I reject all ethno-states. I don't believe in a white Christian ethno-state. I don't believe in a Polish ethno-state. I don't believe in any sort of ethno-state at all. And I certainly don't believe in a Jewish one. And I think that what he's doing is so revolting and dangerous. First of all, he does not care about anti-Semitism. This is the same man that ran excuses for Elon Musk. Totally. When he was doing, when he was see-hiling over there, you know, saying, oh, it's just an awkward gesture. Oh my God. So, bullshit artist, first of all. Second of all, though, I think what is really dangerous is that most people in America, you know, don't know any Jewish people or a little community, right? And most people who are moral people, when they see children being shot in the head and when they see rapists being celebrated on TV like they are in Israel, their hearts are revolted because a moral person's heart is revolted by that. And if, when they speak out of their natural moral revulsion, they are branded as bigots and anti-Semites, and they don't know any Jewish people, eventually they're going to think like, well, I guess anti-Semitism just means opposing genocide. And this creates an opening for really revolting people like Nick Fuentes and Tucker Carlson and Candace Owens to step in. I agree. I'm very concerned having grown up in a red state in quote, unquote, real America. I'm very concerned about the messaging of the Tucker Carlson's, the Marjorie Taylor Greene's, and the Nick Fuentes right now, because we all view our news in a very disjointed way. We're on our phones and we see a cute picture of a cat, and then we see a picture of a genocide, and then you see how the debt is growing, and then you see a 30-second clip of Tucker Carlson or Nick Fuentes. And in 30 seconds, sometimes they say things that are objectively true. 1000%. These policies are not America first. We have to quit funding Israel. Israel is not our friend, blah, blah. My problem with Tucker Carlson, with Nick Fuentes and Marjorie Taylor Greene is, number one, in these 30-second clips, they're outflanking Democratic voices right now. And that really, really scares me. But number two, I know these people. I grew up in Bible Belt, America. Marjorie Taylor Greene right now, as she goes on TV and says, they're killing Palestinians, and this is wrong, and blah, blah, blah. She does not give a shit about immigrant children in the United States that are separated from their families. She has a sign outside of her office that says there are only two genders. Tucker Carlson in the last two months referring to gay people as F-A-G-G-O-T over and over and over again. And it's this thing that I think a lot of people find out when they suck up to fascists. Jonathan Greenblatt's going to find this out. Elon Musk is going to find this out. Well, Elon Musk is a fascist. Yeah. Yeah, no, you're exactly right. But the people who are sucking up, like the women, Pam Bondi just found out, you're not safe when you prioritize human rights. Nobody's safe when we prioritize these people are more important than these people when you go on down. So I'm very concerned about Democrats getting outflanked right now as we head into the midterms. I'm very concerned about this money, this lobbying money in both parties. What do you have to say about that? I absolutely share your concerns. And it's a testament to this fragmented, disjointed, clip culture we live in. I think about Tucker Carlson's interview with Mike Huckabee. No, Tucker Carlson, I find him morally revolting, but he's a skilled interviewer. And he got many valuable things out of that interview with Huckabee. He got him to say, that shit lunacy. Totally. But if you listened to the same interview, which I did because I'm a masochist and you listened to the whole thing, he also is talking about how hordes of migrants are displacing and replacing the people of Britain. He's literally hawking great replacement theory in the same interview. 10 months ago, Tucker Carlson was demanding one million people be deported from America in Trump's first 100 days. He said that they should be shoved over the border into Tijuana and, quote, let the Mexicans deal with them. This is a man, okay, maybe he is, he feels something towards Christian Palestinians. Maybe he's advocating good things, you know, for Palestinians. But he would be fine with locking those same Palestinians in ice cages like Lekya Cordia and Mahmoud Khalil were locked up. It's not based on a fundamental humanism. I mean, what Israel is doing and what Israel is based on is evil because it is anti-humanist. And what ICE is doing with our concentration camp network here is evil because it is anti-humanist and we need values that are based on respect for human life and are based on universalist ethics, not based on cherry picking this cause to excuse this horror. So I personally have been evolving politically. I was your garden variety lib. I watched MSNBC. I voted accordingly. I was politically engaged, et cetera. Having lost to Donald Trump twice, I mean, which should just be a layup to be him. So embarrassing. So humiliating, right? It's caused me to really educate myself more, evolve more. And I'm not alone in this. You have polling right now that 60% of all Americans have a very unfavorable view of Israel and Netanyahu. The Democratic Party approval rating is abysmally low despite that there every time there's a special election, they're winning because that's how bad Trump is. So I'm not alone in this evolution. And I'm kind of evolving from garden variety lib slash dem to really listening to the politics of the DSA. And I heard you in an interview with Emma Vigeland and Sam Cedar, my friends, your friends, and you spoke about the DSA. And when you described to me the Jewish boond, my Oklahoma accent caused me to pronounce it bund, the Jewish boond, there seems to be some similarities in that story. And then what recently happened here in New York with workers being oppressed is do you draw similarities in those two stories? No, absolutely. I mean, the Jewish labor boond was a group that believed very, very strongly in solidarity across difference that you could have a diverse place where people, you know, have really different cultures, spoke different languages, but where they all fought together for what the boond called the better and more beautiful world. They were also Democratic socialists. And I've been a DSA member for eight years. I literally did art for Zoran Mamdani's first assembly campaign in Iraq's. And I genuinely believe that the choice we have is either Democratic socialism, solidarity across difference or savagery. This is what we have either we make a world where we share our resources so that everyone can raise a family, people can have a dignified old age, people can own their own home, people don't have to work three jobs just to eke out a living. Either we do that or we have savagery because if we don't provide people with the means to have a decent life, history has shown that people will in their desperation turn to fascism. Okay, final question. I love this, the first part of the title of your book. Here where we live is our country. And so you live in America. And America is your country. And it's difficult right now being an American. I vacillate back and forth. As an American Jew and this being your home and this being your country, what is your biggest message for us to have solidarity in helping to stamp out all forms of bigotry, all forms of economic inequality and this grotesque conflation of people like, you know, the ADL and a lot of people in Western media? I guess it starts with something that James Baldwin said, which is how all children belong to all of us, right? That we are all equal. It doesn't matter, you know, your color doesn't matter, your religion. We are all equal and we are all deserving of the right to live and flourish and have beautiful lives in freedom and in dignity here. And we're all deserving of bread and roses too, as the labor movement said. And I think once you start with that, that is how you build a better world. Molly, you're so cool. I can see why you won the Emmy. Thank you so much for joining me in studio. I wish you the best of luck with your book. And thank you so much for helping educate us about what is going on as we're faced with all of this insane propaganda. It's really, really helpful. Thank you so much, Jennifer. It's a pleasure.
